27/10/2013 Sunday Politics East


27/10/2013

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 27/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Hope you enjoyed

:00:36.:00:40.

the extra hour in bed, and that you've realised it's not 12:45. It's

:00:41.:00:46.

11:45! It's getting stormy outside. But they're already battening down

:00:47.:00:49.

the hatches at Number Ten because coalition splits are back, with

:00:50.:00:51.

bust-ups over free schools and power bills. We'll speak to the Lib Dems,

:00:52.:00:56.

and ask Labour who's conning whom over energy.

:00:57.:01:00.

EU leaders have been meeting in Brussels. But how's David Cameron

:01:01.:01:03.

getting on with that plan to change our relationship with Europe? We

:01:04.:01:14.

were there to ask him. Have we got any powers back yet? DS!

:01:15.:01:18.

Foreign companies own everything from our energy companies to our

:01:19.:01:19.

railways. Does it matter Here in the east, the GP shortage.

:01:20.:01:27.

It is a leading to consultations In London this week, there are twice

:01:28.:01:34.

as many daily journeys made by bus than by tube, so why is the planned

:01:35.:01:37.

investment in buses not keeping pace?

:01:38.:01:45.

And with me, three journalists who've bravely agreed to hunker down

:01:46.:01:48.

in the studio while Britain braces itself for massive storm winds,

:01:49.:01:50.

tweeting their political forecasts with all the accuracy of Michael

:01:51.:01:54.

Fish on hurricane watch. Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt.

:01:55.:02:01.

Now, sometimes coalition splits are over-egged, or dare we say even

:02:02.:02:05.

occasionally stage-managed. But this week, we've seen what looks like the

:02:06.:02:09.

genuine article. It turns out Nick Clegg has his doubts about the

:02:10.:02:11.

coalition's flagship free schools policy. David Cameron doesn't much

:02:12.:02:15.

like the green levies on our energy bills championed by the Lib Dems.

:02:16.:02:18.

Neither of them seems to have bothered to tell the other that they

:02:19.:02:23.

had their doubts. Who better to discuss these flare-ups than Lib Dem

:02:24.:02:26.

Deputy Leader Simon Hughes? He joins me now. Welcome. Good morning. The

:02:27.:02:37.

Lib Dems spent three years of sticking up for the coalition when

:02:38.:02:41.

times were grim. Explain to me the logic of splitting from them when

:02:42.:02:46.

times look better. We will stick with it for five years. It is

:02:47.:02:50.

working arrangement, but not surprisingly, where there right

:02:51.:02:54.

areas on which we disagree over where to go next, we will stand up.

:02:55.:02:58.

It is going to be hard enough for the Lib Dems to get any credit for

:02:59.:03:03.

the recovery, what ever it is. It will be even harder if you seem to

:03:04.:03:09.

be semidetached and picky. The coalition has led on economic

:03:10.:03:13.

policy, some of which were entirely from our stable. The one you have

:03:14.:03:18.

heard about most often, a Lib Dem initiative, was to take people on

:03:19.:03:24.

blowing comes out of tax. The recovery would not have happened,

:03:25.:03:26.

there would not have been confidence in Britain, had there not been a

:03:27.:03:31.

coalition government with us in it, making sure the same policies

:03:32.:03:36.

produced fair outcomes. We are not going to leave the credit for any

:03:37.:03:40.

growth - and there has been very good news this week. We have played

:03:41.:03:45.

a part in that, and without us, it would not have happened. Does it not

:03:46.:03:49.

underline the trust problem you have? You promised to abolish

:03:50.:03:54.

tuition fees. You oppose nuclear power, now you are cheerleading the

:03:55.:04:00.

first multi-billion pounds investment in nuclear generation.

:04:01.:04:05.

You are dying out on your enthusiasm on green levies, and now they are up

:04:06.:04:09.

for renegotiation. Why should we trust a word you say? In relation to

:04:10.:04:16.

green levies, as you well know, just under 10% is to do with helping

:04:17.:04:26.

energy and helping people. Unless there is continuing investment in

:04:27.:04:30.

renewables, we will not have the British produced energy at cheaper

:04:31.:04:34.

cost to keep those bills down in the future. At cheaper cost? Explain

:04:35.:04:38.

that to me. Off-shore energy is twice the market rate. The costs of

:04:39.:04:48.

renewables will increasingly come down. We have fantastic capacity to

:04:49.:04:52.

produce the energy and deliver lots of jobs in the process. The parts of

:04:53.:04:57.

the energy bill that may be up for renegotiation seems to be the part

:04:58.:05:01.

where we subsidise to help either poor people pay less, or where we do

:05:02.:05:07.

other things. Too insulated the homes? Are you up to putting that to

:05:08.:05:12.

general taxation? Wouldn't that be progressive? I would. It would be

:05:13.:05:18.

progressive. I would like to do for energy bills what the Chancellor has

:05:19.:05:21.

done for road traffic users, drivers, which is too fuelled motor

:05:22.:05:28.

fuel -- to freeze new to fall. That would mean there would be an

:05:29.:05:32.

immediate relief this year, not waiting for the election. So there

:05:33.:05:38.

is a deal to be done there? Yes We understand we have to take the

:05:39.:05:42.

burden off the consumer, and also deal with the energy companies, who

:05:43.:05:45.

look as if they are not paying all the tax they should be, and the

:05:46.:05:49.

regulator, which doesn't regulate quickly enough to deal with the

:05:50.:05:54.

issues coming down the track. We can toughen the regulator, and I hope

:05:55.:05:58.

that the Chancellor, in the Autumn statement, was signalled that energy

:05:59.:06:01.

companies will not be allowed to get away with not paying the taxes they

:06:02.:06:06.

should. And this deal will allow energy prices to come down? Yes How

:06:07.:06:12.

could David Laws, one of your ministers, proudly defend the record

:06:13.:06:17.

of unqualified teachers working in free schools, and then stand

:06:18.:06:22.

side-by-side with Mr Clegg, as he says he is against them? David Laws

:06:23.:06:28.

was not proudly defending the fact that it is unqualified teachers He

:06:29.:06:33.

said that some of the new, unqualified teachers in free schools

:06:34.:06:38.

are doing a superb job. But you want to get rid of them? We want to make

:06:39.:06:43.

sure that everybody coming into a free school ends up being qualified.

:06:44.:06:50.

Ends up? Goes through a process that means they have qualifications. Just

:06:51.:06:54.

as we said very clearly at the last election that the manifesto

:06:55.:06:59.

curriculum in free schools should be the same as other schools. It looks

:07:00.:07:03.

like Mr Clegg is picking a fight just for the sake of it. Mr Clegg

:07:04.:07:10.

was taught by people who didn't have teaching qualifications in one of

:07:11.:07:13.

the greatest schools in the land, if not the world. It didn't seem to do

:07:14.:07:18.

him any harm. What is the problem? If you pay to go to a school, you

:07:19.:07:23.

know what you're getting. But that is what a free school is. No, you

:07:24.:07:30.

don't pay fees. A free school is parents taking the decisions, not

:07:31.:07:34.

you, the politicians. We believe they would expect to guarantee is,

:07:35.:07:38.

firstly that the minimum curriculum taught across the country is taught

:07:39.:07:43.

in the free schools, and secondly, that the teachers there are

:07:44.:07:46.

qualified. Someone who send their kids to private schools took a

:07:47.:07:51.

decision to take -- to send their children there, even if the teachers

:07:52.:07:58.

were unqualified, because they are experts in their field. Someone who

:07:59.:08:02.

send their kids to free schools is because -- is their decision, not

:08:03.:08:10.

yours. Because some of the free schools are new, and have never been

:08:11.:08:13.

there before, parents need a guarantee that there are some basics

:08:14.:08:18.

in place, whatever sort of school. So they need you to hold their hand?

:08:19.:08:24.

It is not about holding hands, it is about having a minimum guarantee.

:08:25.:08:28.

Our party made clear at our conference that this is a priority

:08:29.:08:32.

for us. Nick Clegg reflects the view of the party, and I believe it is an

:08:33.:08:37.

entirely rational thing to do. Nick Clegg complained that the Prime

:08:38.:08:40.

Minister gave him only 30 minutes notice on the Prime Minister Buzz 's

:08:41.:08:49.

U-turn on green levies. That is almost as little time as Nick Clegg

:08:50.:08:53.

gave the Prime Minister on his U-turn on free schools. Aren't you

:08:54.:08:56.

supposed to be partners? Green levies were under discussion in the

:08:57.:09:05.

ministerial group before Wednesday, because we identified this as an

:09:06.:09:09.

issue. We do that in a practical way. Sometimes there is only half an

:09:10.:09:16.

hour's notice. We had even less than half an hour this morning! Simon

:09:17.:09:22.

Hughes, thank you. So the price of energy is the big

:09:23.:09:26.

battle ground in politics at the moment. 72% of people say that high

:09:27.:09:31.

bills will influence the way they vote at the next election. Ed

:09:32.:09:35.

Miliband has promised a price freeze after the next election, but will

:09:36.:09:41.

the coalition turned the tables on Labour, with its proposal to roll

:09:42.:09:46.

back green levies. Caroline Flint joins us from Sheffield. It looks

:09:47.:09:54.

like the coalition will be able to take ?50 of energy bills, by

:09:55.:10:02.

removing green levies. It is quite clear that different parts of the

:10:03.:10:05.

government are running round waking up to the fact that the public feel

:10:06.:10:09.

that this government has not done enough to listen to their concerns.

:10:10.:10:13.

Last week, there was a classic case of the Prime Minister making up

:10:14.:10:17.

policy literally at the dispatch box. Let's see what they say in the

:10:18.:10:22.

autumn statement. The truth is, whatever the debate around green

:10:23.:10:26.

levies, and I have always said we should look at value for money at

:10:27.:10:30.

those green levies. Our argument is about acknowledging there is

:10:31.:10:48.

something wrong with the way the market works, and the way those

:10:49.:10:50.

companies are regulated. Behind our freeze for 20 months is a package of

:10:51.:10:53.

proposals to reform this market I understand that, but you cannot tell

:10:54.:10:56.

as the details about that. I can. You cannot give us the details about

:10:57.:10:58.

reforming the market. We are going to do three things, and I think I

:10:59.:11:01.

said this last time I was on the programme. First, we are going to

:11:02.:11:05.

separate out the generation side from the supply side within the big

:11:06.:11:12.

six. Secondly, we will have a energy pool, or power exchange, where all

:11:13.:11:17.

energy will have to be traded in that pool. Thirdly, we will

:11:18.:11:21.

establish a tougher regulator, because Ofgem is increasingly being

:11:22.:11:25.

seen as not doing the job right I notice that you didn't mention any

:11:26.:11:30.

reform of the current green and social taxes on the energy bill Is

:11:31.:11:35.

it Labour's policy to maintain the existing green levies? In 2011, the

:11:36.:11:41.

government chose to get rid of warm front, which was the publicly funded

:11:42.:11:47.

through tracks a scheme to support new installation. When they got rid

:11:48.:11:51.

of that, it was the first time we had a government since the 70s that

:11:52.:11:57.

didn't have such a policy. What is your policy? We voted against that

:11:58.:12:02.

because we believe it is wrong. We believe that the eco-scheme, a

:12:03.:12:08.

government intervention which is ?47 of the ?112 on our bills each year,

:12:09.:12:16.

is expensive, bureaucratic and isn't going to the fuel poor. I am up for

:12:17.:12:21.

a debate on these issues. I am up for a discussion on what the

:12:22.:12:24.

government should do and what these energy companies should do. We

:12:25.:12:27.

cannot let Cameron all the energy companies off the hook from the way

:12:28.:12:31.

in which they organise their businesses, and expect us to pay

:12:32.:12:37.

ever increasing rises in our bills. There is ?112 of green levies on our

:12:38.:12:41.

bills at the moment. Did you vote against any of them? We didn't, but

:12:42.:12:46.

what I would say ease these were government imposed levies. When they

:12:47.:12:53.

got rid of the government funded programme, Warm Front, they

:12:54.:13:01.

introduced the eco-scheme. The eco-project is one of the ones where

:13:02.:13:08.

the energy companies are saying it's too bureaucratic, and it is

:13:09.:13:12.

proving more expensive than government estimates, apparently

:13:13.:13:14.

doubled the amount the government thought. These things are all worth

:13:15.:13:19.

looking at, but don't go to the heart of the issue. According to

:13:20.:13:24.

official figures, on current plans, which you support, which you voted

:13:25.:13:35.

for, households will be paying 1% more per unit of electricity by

:13:36.:13:42.

2030. It puts your temporary freeze as just a blip. You support a 4 %

:13:43.:13:51.

rise in our bills. I support making sure we secure for the future access

:13:52.:13:55.

to energy that we can grow here in the UK, whether it is through

:13:56.:14:00.

nuclear, wind or solar, or other technologies yet to be developed. We

:14:01.:14:08.

should protect ourselves against energy costs we cannot control. The

:14:09.:14:13.

truth is, it is every fair for you to put that point across, and I

:14:14.:14:17.

accept that, but we need to hear the other side about the cost for bill

:14:18.:14:22.

payers if we didn't invest in new, indigenous sources of energy supply

:14:23.:14:25.

for the future, which, in the long run, will be cheaper and more

:14:26.:14:30.

secure, and create the jobs we need. I think it is important to

:14:31.:14:34.

have a debate about these issues, but they have to be seen in the

:14:35.:14:38.

right context. If we stay stuck in the past, we will pay more and we

:14:39.:14:45.

will not create jobs. How can you criticise the coalition's plans for

:14:46.:14:50.

a new nuclear station, when jeering 13 years of a Labour government you

:14:51.:14:55.

did not invest in a single nuclear plant? You sold off all our nuclear

:14:56.:14:58.

technology to foreign companies Energy provision was put out to

:14:59.:15:12.

private hands and there has been no obstacle in British law against

:15:13.:15:21.

ownership outside the UK. Part of this is looking ahead. Because your

:15:22.:15:28.

previous track record is so bad What we did decide under the

:15:29.:15:32.

previous government, we came to the view, and there were discussions in

:15:33.:15:37.

our party about this, that we did need to support a nuclear future.

:15:38.:15:44.

At the time of that, David Cameron was one of those saying that

:15:45.:15:47.

nuclear power should be a last resort. And as you said, the

:15:48.:15:52.

Liberals did not support it. We stood up for that. We set in train

:15:53.:15:58.

the green light of 10 sites, including Hinkley Point, for

:15:59.:16:02.

nuclear development. I am glad to see that is making progress and we

:16:03.:16:06.

should make more progress over the years ahead. We took a tough

:16:07.:16:10.

decision when other governments had not done. You did not build a new

:16:11.:16:18.

nuclear station. When you get back into power, will you build HS2?

:16:19.:16:26.

That has not had a blank cheque from the Labour Party. I am in

:16:27.:16:33.

favour of good infrastructure. Are you in favour of?, answer the

:16:34.:16:38.

question? I have answered the question. It does not have a blank

:16:39.:16:43.

cheque. If the prices are too high, we will review the decision when we

:16:44.:16:48.

come back to vote on it. We will be looking at it closely. We have to

:16:49.:16:53.

look for value for money and how it benefits the country. Have you

:16:54.:16:58.

stocked up on jumpers this winter? I am perfectly all right with my

:16:59.:17:02.

clothing. What is important, it is ridiculous for the Government to

:17:03.:17:10.

suggest that the answer to the loss of trust in the energy companies is

:17:11.:17:19.

to put on another jumper. The coalition has taken a long time

:17:20.:17:25.

to come up with anything that can trump Ed Miliband's simple freezing

:17:26.:17:30.

energy prices, vote for us. Are they on the brink of doing so? I do

:17:31.:17:36.

not think so. They have had a problem that has dominated the

:17:37.:17:39.

debate, talking about GDP, the figures came out on Friday and said,

:17:40.:17:45.

well, and went back to talking about energy. My problem with what

:17:46.:17:50.

David Cameron proposes is he agrees with the analysis that the Big Six

:17:51.:17:56.

make too many profits. He wants to move the green levies into general

:17:57.:18:00.

taxation, so that he looks like he is protecting the profits of the

:18:01.:18:06.

energy companies. If the coalition can say they will take money off

:18:07.:18:11.

the bills, does that change the game? I do not think the Liberal

:18:12.:18:17.

Democrats are an obstacle to unwinding the green levies. I think

:18:18.:18:23.

Nick Clegg is open to doing a deal, but the real obstacle is the carbon

:18:24.:18:28.

reduction targets that we signed up to during the boom years. They were

:18:29.:18:33.

ambitious I thought at the time From that we have the taxes and

:18:34.:18:37.

clocking up of the supply-side of the economy. Unless he will revise

:18:38.:18:42.

that, and build from first principles a new strategy, he

:18:43.:18:46.

cannot do more than put a dent into green levies. He might say as I

:18:47.:18:53.

have got to ?50 now and if you voters in in an overall majority, I

:18:54.:18:57.

will look up what we have done in the better times and give you more.

:18:58.:19:02.

I am sure he will do that. It might be ?50 of the Bill, but it will be

:19:03.:19:07.

?50 on your general taxation bill, which would be more progressive

:19:08.:19:12.

They will find it. We will never see it in general taxation. The

:19:13.:19:19.

problem for the Coalition on what Ed Miliband has done is that it is

:19:20.:19:24.

five weeks since he made that speech and it is all we are talking

:19:25.:19:29.

about. David Cameron spent those five weeks trying to work out

:19:30.:19:32.

whether Ed Miliband is a Marxist or whether he is connected to Middle

:19:33.:19:35.

Britain. That is why Ed Miliband set the agenda. The coalition are

:19:36.:19:41.

squabbling among themselves, looking petulant, on energy, and on

:19:42.:19:48.

schools. Nobody is taking notice of the fact the economy is under way,

:19:49.:19:54.

the recovery is under way. Ed Miliband has made the weather on

:19:55.:20:00.

this. It UK has a relaxed attitude about

:20:01.:20:06.

selling off assets based -- to companies based abroad. But this

:20:07.:20:14.

week we have seen the Swiss owner of one of Scotland's largest

:20:15.:20:16.

industrial sites, Grangemouth, come within a whisker of closing part of

:20:17.:20:20.

it down. So should we care whether British assets have foreign owners?

:20:21.:20:22.

Britain might be a nation of homeowners, but we appear to have

:20:23.:20:25.

lost our taste for owning some of our biggest businesses. These are

:20:26.:20:30.

among the crown jewels sold off in the past three decades to companies

:20:31.:20:38.

based abroad. Roughly half of Britain's essential services have

:20:39.:20:40.

overseas owners. The airport owner, British Airports Authority, is

:20:41.:20:42.

owned by a Spanish company. Britain's largest water company

:20:43.:20:45.

Thames, is owned by a consortium led by an Australian bank. Four out

:20:46.:20:48.

of six of Britain's biggest energy companies are owned by overseas

:20:49.:20:51.

giants, and one of these, EDF Energy, which is owned by the

:20:52.:20:54.

French state, is building Britain's first nuclear power plant in a

:20:55.:20:56.

generation, backed by Chinese investors. It's a similar story for

:20:57.:21:04.

train operator Arriva, bought by a company owned by the German state.

:21:05.:21:09.

So part of the railways privatised by the British government was

:21:10.:21:11.

effectively re-nationalised by the German government. But does it

:21:12.:21:21.

matter who owns these companies as long as the lights stay on, the

:21:22.:21:24.

trains run on time, and we can still eat Cadbury's Dairy Milk?

:21:25.:21:31.

We are joined by the general secretary of the RMT, Bob Crow, and

:21:32.:21:35.

by venture capitalist Julie Meyer. They go head to head.

:21:36.:21:43.

Have we seen the consequences of relying for essential services to

:21:44.:21:49.

be foreign-owned? Four of the Big Six energy companies, Grangemouth,

:21:50.:21:55.

owned by a tax exile in Switzerland. It is not good. I do not think

:21:56.:22:02.

there is a cause and effect relationship between foreign

:22:03.:22:07.

ownership and consumer prices. That is not the right comparison. We

:22:08.:22:11.

need to be concerned about businesses represented the future,

:22:12.:22:14.

businesses we are good at innovating for example in financial

:22:15.:22:19.

services and the UK has a history of building businesses, such as

:22:20.:22:26.

Monotypes. If we were not creating businesses here -- Monotise. Like

:22:27.:22:36.

so many businesses creating products and services and creating

:22:37.:22:46.

the shareholders. Should we allow hour essential services to be in

:22:47.:22:51.

foreign ownership? It was demonstrated this week at

:22:52.:22:55.

Grangemouth. If you do not own the industry, you do not own it. The

:22:56.:23:00.

MPs of this country and the politicians in Scotland have no say,

:23:01.:23:04.

they were consultants. Multinationals decide whether to

:23:05.:23:11.

shut a company down. If that had been Unite union, they are the ones

:23:12.:23:15.

who saved the jobs. They capitulated. They will come back,

:23:16.:23:21.

like they have for the past 150 years, and capture again what they

:23:22.:23:26.

lost. If it had closed, they would have lost their jobs for ever. If

:23:27.:23:32.

the union had called the members up without a ballot for strike action,

:23:33.:23:36.

there would have been uproar. This person in Switzerland can decide to

:23:37.:23:41.

shut the entire industry down. The coalition, the Labour Party, as

:23:42.:23:47.

well, when Labour was in government, they played a role of allowing

:23:48.:23:52.

industries to go abroad, and it should be returned to public

:23:53.:24:04.

ownership. Nestor. It has demonstrated that the Net comes

:24:05.:24:12.

from new businesses. We must not be... When Daly motion was stopped

:24:13.:24:18.

by the French government to be sold, it was an arrow to the heart of

:24:19.:24:23.

French entrepreneurs. We must not create that culture in the UK.

:24:24.:24:27.

Every train running in France is built in France. 90% of the trains

:24:28.:24:31.

running in Germany are built in Germany. In Japan, it has to be

:24:32.:24:42.

built in that country, and now an energy company in France is

:24:43.:24:46.

reducing its nuclear capability in its own country and wants to make

:24:47.:24:50.

profits out of the British industry to put back into it state industry.

:24:51.:24:54.

That happened with the railway industry. They want to make money

:24:55.:24:58.

at the expense of their own state companies. We sold off energy

:24:59.:25:09.

production. How did we end up in a position where our nuclear capacity

:25:10.:25:14.

will be built by a company owned by a socialist date, France, and

:25:15.:25:17.

funded by a communist one, China, for vital infrastructure? I am not

:25:18.:25:26.

suggesting that is in the national interest. I am saying we can pick

:25:27.:25:30.

any one example and say it is a shame. The simple matter of the

:25:31.:25:35.

fact is the owners are having to make decisions. Not just

:25:36.:25:39.

Grangemouth, businesses are making decisions about what is the common

:25:40.:25:44.

good. Not just in the shareholders' interest. For employees, customers.

:25:45.:25:50.

What is in the common good when prices go up by 10% and the reason

:25:51.:25:55.

is that 20 years ago they shut every coal pit down in this country,

:25:56.:25:59.

the Germans kept theirs open and subsidised it and now we have the

:26:00.:26:02.

Germans doing away with nuclear power and they have coal. Under the

:26:03.:26:11.

Labour government, in 2008, the climate change Act was passed. Well

:26:12.:26:17.

before that, and you know yourself, they shut down the coal mines to

:26:18.:26:21.

smash the National Union of Mineworkers because they dared to

:26:22.:26:25.

stand up for people in their community. Even if we wanted to

:26:26.:26:30.

reopen the coalmines, it would be pointless. Under the 2008 Act, we

:26:31.:26:35.

are not meant to burn more coal The can, as if you spent some of

:26:36.:26:41.

the profits, you could have carbon catch up. That does not exist on a

:26:42.:26:50.

massive scale. You are arguing the case, Julie Meyer, for

:26:51.:26:54.

entrepreneurs to come to this country. Even Bob Crow is not

:26:55.:26:59.

against that. We are trying to argue, should essential services be

:27:00.:27:06.

in foreign hands? Not those in Silicon round about doing start ups.

:27:07.:27:13.

I am trying to draw a broader principle than just energy.

:27:14.:27:17.

Something like broadband services, also important to the functioning

:27:18.:27:24.

of the economy. I believe in the UK's ability to innovate. When we

:27:25.:27:29.

have businesses that play off broadband companies to get the best

:27:30.:27:34.

prices for consumers. These new businesses and business models are

:27:35.:27:40.

the best way. Not to control, but to influence. It will be a disaster.

:27:41.:27:46.

Prices will go up and up as a result. Nissan in Sunderland, a

:27:47.:27:52.

Japanese factory, some of the best cars and productivity. You want

:27:53.:27:56.

that to be nationalised and bring it down to the standard of British

:27:57.:28:01.

Leyland? It is not bring it down to the standard. The car manufacturing

:28:02.:28:04.

base in this country has been wrecked. We make more cars now for

:28:05.:28:11.

20 years -- than in 20 years. Ford's Dagenham produced some of

:28:12.:28:17.

the best cars in the world. Did you buy one? I cannot drive. They moved

:28:18.:28:23.

their plants to other countries where it was cheaper labour. Would

:28:24.:28:30.

you nationalise Nissan? There should be one car industry that

:28:31.:28:35.

produces cars for people. This week the EU summit was about Angela

:28:36.:28:40.

Merkel's mobile phone being tapped, they call it a handy. We sent Adam

:28:41.:28:49.

to Brussels and told him to ignore the business about phone-tapping

:28:50.:28:52.

and investigate the Prime Minister's policy on Europe instead.

:28:53.:29:02.

I have come to my first EU summit to see how David Cameron is getting on

:29:03.:29:11.

with his strategy to claim power was back from Brussels. Got any powers

:29:12.:29:20.

back yet? Yes! Which ones? Sadly, his fellow leaders were not as

:29:21.:29:25.

forthcoming. Chancellor, are you going to give any powers back to

:29:26.:29:31.

Britain? Has David Cameron asked you for any powers back? The president

:29:32.:29:35.

of the commission just laughed, and listen to the Lithuanian President.

:29:36.:29:44.

How is David Cameron's renegotiation strategy going? What's that? He

:29:45.:29:54.

wants powers back for Britain. No one knows what powers David Cameron

:29:55.:29:58.

actually wants. Even our usual allies, like Sweden, are bit

:29:59.:30:06.

baffled. We actually don't know yet what is going through the UK

:30:07.:30:12.

membership. We will await the finalisation of that first. You

:30:13.:30:18.

should ask him, and then tell us! Here is someone who must know, the

:30:19.:30:23.

Dutch Prime Minister, he is doing what we are doing, carrying out a

:30:24.:30:29.

review of the EU powers, known as competencies in the jargon, before

:30:30.:30:34.

negotiating to get some back. Have you had any negotiations with David

:30:35.:30:37.

Cameron over what powers you can bring back from Brussels? That is

:30:38.:30:44.

not on the agenda of this summit. Have you talked to him about it

:30:45.:30:49.

This is not on the schedule for this summit.

:30:50.:30:54.

David Cameron's advises tummy it is because he is playing the long game.

:30:55.:31:05.

-- David Cameron's advisers tell me. At this summit, there was a task

:31:06.:31:11.

force discussing how to cut EU red tape. Just how long this game is was

:31:12.:31:18.

explained to me outside the summit, by the leader of the Conservatives

:31:19.:31:24.

in the European Parliament. I think the behind-the-scenes negotiations

:31:25.:31:28.

will start happening when the new commissioner is appointed later next

:31:29.:31:31.

year. I think the detailed negotiations will start to happen

:31:32.:31:36.

bubbly after the UK general election. That is when we will start

:31:37.:31:40.

getting all of the detail of the horse trading, and real, Lake night

:31:41.:31:49.

negotiations. Angela Merkel seems keen to rewrite the EU's main

:31:50.:31:53.

treaties to deal with changes in the Eurozone, and that is the mechanism

:31:54.:31:58.

David Cameron would use to renegotiate our membership. Everyone

:31:59.:32:02.

here says his relationship with the German Chancellor is strong. So

:32:03.:32:06.

after days in this building, here is how it looks. David Cameron has a

:32:07.:32:12.

mountain to climb. It is climbable, but he isn't even in the foothills

:32:13.:32:16.

yet. Has he even started packing his bags for the trip?

:32:17.:32:21.

Joining us now, a man who knows a thing or two about the difficulties

:32:22.:32:29.

Prime Minister 's face in Europe. Former Deputy Prime Minister,

:32:30.:32:32.

Michael Heseltine. We are nine months from David Cameron's defining

:32:33.:32:37.

speech on EU renegotiation. Can you think of one area of progress? I

:32:38.:32:43.

don't know. And you don't know. And that's a good thing. Why is it a

:32:44.:32:51.

good thing? Because the real progress goes on behind closed

:32:52.:33:02.

doors. And only the most naive, because the real progress goes on

:33:03.:33:08.

behind closed doors. Because, in this weary world, you and I, Andrew,

:33:09.:33:14.

know full well that the moment you say, I making progress, people say,

:33:15.:33:20.

where? And the machine goes to work to show that the progress isn't

:33:21.:33:26.

enough. So you are much better off making progress as best you can in

:33:27.:33:35.

the privacy of private diplomacy. It is a long journey ahead. In this

:33:36.:33:40.

long journey, do you have a clear sense of the destination? Do you

:33:41.:33:46.

have a clear sense of what powers Mr Cameron wants to negotiate? I have a

:33:47.:33:50.

clear sense of the destination, which is a victory for the campaign

:33:51.:33:56.

that he will win to stay inside the European community. That is the

:33:57.:34:02.

agenda, and I have total support for that. I understand that, but if he

:34:03.:34:10.

is incapable of getting any tangible sign of renegotiation, if he is able

:34:11.:34:16.

only to do what Wilson did in 1 75, which was to get a couple of token

:34:17.:34:22.

changes to our membership status, he goes into that referendum without

:34:23.:34:27.

much to argue for. He has everything to argue for. He's got Britain's

:34:28.:34:35.

vital role as a major contributor to the community. He's got Britain s

:34:36.:34:39.

self interest as a major beneficiary, and Britain's vital

:34:40.:34:47.

role in the City of London. He's got everything to argue for. He could

:34:48.:34:51.

argue for that now. He could have a referendum now. He doesn't want one

:34:52.:34:58.

now. I haven't any doubt that he will come back with something to

:34:59.:35:06.

talk about. But it may be slightly different to what his critics, the

:35:07.:35:14.

UK isolationist party people, want. He may, for example, have found that

:35:15.:35:19.

allies within the community want change as well, and he may secure

:35:20.:35:24.

changes in the way the community works, which would be a significant

:35:25.:35:30.

argument within the referendum campaign. Let me give you an

:35:31.:35:36.

example. I think it is a scandal that the European Commission don't

:35:37.:35:42.

secure the auditing of some of the accounts. Perhaps that could be on

:35:43.:35:49.

the agenda. He might find a lot of contributing countries, like

:35:50.:35:51.

Germany, like Colin and, would be very keen. -- like Holland. David

:35:52.:36:00.

vetoed the increase in the European budgets the other day, and he had a

:36:01.:36:07.

lot of allies. So working within Europe on the things that people

:36:08.:36:12.

paying the European bills want is fertile ground. Is John Major right

:36:13.:36:16.

to call for a windfall tax on the energy companies? John is a very

:36:17.:36:22.

cautious fellow. He doesn't say things without thinking them out. So

:36:23.:36:29.

I was surprised that he went for a windfall tax. First of all, it is

:36:30.:36:34.

retrospective, and secondly, it is difficult to predict what the

:36:35.:36:39.

consequences will be. I am, myself, more interested in the other part of

:36:40.:36:43.

his speech, which was talking about the need for the Conservative Party

:36:44.:36:49.

to seek a wider horizon, to recognise what is happening to the

:36:50.:36:53.

Conservative Party in the way in which its membership is shrinking

:36:54.:37:01.

into a southeastern enclave. Are you in favour of a windfall tax? I am

:37:02.:37:06.

not in favour of increasing any taxes. Do you share Iain Duncan

:37:07.:37:17.

Smith's point of view on welfare reform? I think Iain Duncan Smith is

:37:18.:37:27.

right. It is extremely difficult to do, but he is right to try. I think

:37:28.:37:33.

public opinion is behind him, but it isn't easy, because on the fringe of

:37:34.:37:43.

these issues there are genuine hard luck stories, and they are the ones

:37:44.:37:48.

that become the focus of attention the moment you introduce change It

:37:49.:37:53.

requires a lot of political skill to negotiate your way through that But

:37:54.:37:59.

isn't Iain Duncan Smith right to invoke the beverage principle, that

:38:00.:38:04.

you should be expected to make a contribution for the welfare you

:38:05.:38:10.

depend on? Yes, he is. I will let you get your Sunday lunch. Thanks

:38:11.:38:15.

for joining us. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I

:38:16.:38:16.

will be looking Hello and welcome to the Sunday

:38:17.:38:38.

politics in the East. Coming up, the fiasco over Norfolk's controversial

:38:39.:38:42.

waste incinerator and the warning that pulling the plug note could the

:38:43.:38:48.

county council. The ultimate benchmark is, is this the right

:38:49.:38:52.

thing for a Norfolk? I think it is and if this makes the unpopular then

:38:53.:38:57.

that is tough luck. Plus the places where there are not enough GPs. Is

:38:58.:39:01.

the new clinical commissioning system to blame? The huge

:39:02.:39:06.

reorganisation and the instability it causes, people are not quite sure

:39:07.:39:10.

what general practitioners are supposed to do. First, let's meet

:39:11.:39:18.

our guests. Roz Scott, a former Liberal Democrat peer who started

:39:19.:39:25.

her career on the Suffolk Council. And Gavin, the Labour MP for Suffolk

:39:26.:39:31.

Council, welcome to you both. Now, a deal was secured by EDF and

:39:32.:39:36.

the Chinese investors to build Britain's first nuclear power

:39:37.:39:40.

station in the generation at Hinkley point in Somerset. That has had the

:39:41.:39:47.

big knock`on effect here, because EDF are also responsible for a plan

:39:48.:39:51.

to build a nuclear reactor on the coast. We will build Hinkley first

:39:52.:39:57.

and then move onto Sizewell. There will be an overlap because it takes

:39:58.:40:02.

ten years to build Hinkley point but we will move rapidly to follow

:40:03.:40:08.

Hinkley point with Sizewell. Baroness Scott, you're obviously

:40:09.:40:10.

fully behind a new Sizewell facility. The party has gone three

:40:11.:40:17.

journey similar to the one I have personally made. 20 odd years ago I

:40:18.:40:25.

was opposed to Sizewell, but climate change was not something that we

:40:26.:40:27.

were talking about them. I still feel quite confident that most

:40:28.:40:33.

climate change is man`made and finding forms of power that do not

:40:34.:40:39.

use carbon are absolutely crucial. Sought not another Lib Dem U`turn

:40:40.:40:44.

on. If the evidence changes then you must change with it. Gavin, should

:40:45.:40:49.

be worried that we are expanding nuclear energy in this country when

:40:50.:40:54.

other places are ditching it? There is a shortage in other countries,

:40:55.:41:00.

like Japan, for obvious reasons. We need decent baseload capacity in the

:41:01.:41:04.

system and that is what the clear can provide so you can bring in

:41:05.:41:08.

other the energy forms such as offshore wind and something that I

:41:09.:41:14.

was in the East know all about. Sizewell, Lake Hinkley, could

:41:15.:41:19.

generate around 70% of the UK electricity supply. Back in 2008,

:41:20.:41:24.

plans were put in motion for another much smaller power station at King

:41:25.:41:29.

's Lynn in Norfolk. The idea was simple, and incinerator to burn

:41:30.:41:33.

household rubbish, cut landfill and produce electricity. Five years on

:41:34.:41:39.

it has still not been built and it has caused a political storm that

:41:40.:41:43.

could land Norfolk county council with the ?20 million will. The local

:41:44.:41:48.

people and MPs did not want it and know it is with the Secretary of

:41:49.:41:53.

State for a final decision. Last week, the government withdrew PFI

:41:54.:41:57.

funding for the project and opponents are deleted. It would be

:41:58.:42:02.

madness for them to continue with it. The money was only incentive to

:42:03.:42:08.

go with the most option. I do not believe that the project would have

:42:09.:42:12.

benefited the Norfolk taxpayer, the economics were very, very

:42:13.:42:15.

marginalised depended on volcanoes of factors. It is something we have

:42:16.:42:21.

fought so hard for over the last three or four years and at last we

:42:22.:42:27.

have some results. You get an idea of the strength of feeling. If the

:42:28.:42:32.

council pulls out the fees a multi`million pound compensation

:42:33.:42:36.

bill but equally, if it goes ahead because of the huge, too. The leader

:42:37.:42:39.

of the Conservatives on Norfolk county council is Bill Barnett and

:42:40.:42:45.

in his previous role as head of waste he was easily the's big

:42:46.:42:51.

champion. He told us he believes the case for remains as strong as ever.

:42:52.:42:55.

Norfolk produces 1 million tonnes of waste every year, a very large chunk

:42:56.:43:01.

of that is now recyclable but that `` and that is great but there is

:43:02.:43:05.

still hundreds of thousands of tonnes of waste which in the

:43:06.:43:07.

foreseeable future will not be able to be recycled sought Norfolk county

:43:08.:43:13.

council embarked on a project that has brought us to this point. On the

:43:14.:43:17.

council will face massive costs whether it goes ahead or pulls out.

:43:18.:43:23.

Yes, that is the way the land lies, I think you have two, you have a

:43:24.:43:30.

contract that was signed and approved by the Treasury. It had to

:43:31.:43:33.

meet Treasury requirements in order to qualify for the PFI credits so

:43:34.:43:38.

the government knew exactly what the outcome for Norfolk would be when

:43:39.:43:44.

the similarly withdrew them and that is why it is such a body blow for

:43:45.:43:50.

Norfolk. Why Sony contract that saddles the authority with such

:43:51.:43:54.

large cost of April out. You have stitched them up. Why sign a

:43:55.:44:00.

contract if you are going to walk away? In any part of life a legally

:44:01.:44:04.

binding contract is just that, legally binding. There are penalties

:44:05.:44:11.

on both sides. If the construction company got up and walked away the

:44:12.:44:14.

council would be justifiably upset seeing the aspect of this money had

:44:15.:44:20.

gone forward in good faith. It only reflects the costs that both sides

:44:21.:44:24.

have spent getting this far. The contract, and I think this is

:44:25.:44:28.

something that is worth stressing, is not unique to Norfolk. This is

:44:29.:44:32.

very similar to the contract that was used in the Suffolk to deliver

:44:33.:44:36.

the Blakenham incinerator and this is something that Norfolk had to get

:44:37.:44:40.

the agreement of both deaf and her Majesty 's government in the form of

:44:41.:44:47.

the tragedy and to approve it. `` in the form of the tragedy. The amount

:44:48.:44:53.

of waste and the investments necessary to deliver it are all

:44:54.:44:58.

very, very expensive. If the authority decides to pull out on

:44:59.:45:03.

Monday it will face bankruptcy. This is effectively a power station that

:45:04.:45:08.

runs on rubbish. And generates, will generate as much electricity is

:45:09.:45:13.

burning 200,000 tonnes of coal per year. Delivering any sort of power

:45:14.:45:19.

station is an expensive business. A lot of the nuclear stories we have

:45:20.:45:22.

had in the press this week show that. Councils have no choice now.

:45:23.:45:26.

They must go ahead with the scheme or fees a massive ill which could

:45:27.:45:31.

make them bankrupt. If we go ahead with the project the cancer will

:45:32.:45:36.

save money, the waste will not go to landfill any more, each seat will be

:45:37.:45:43.

used to generate electricity on a national level and bring revenue

:45:44.:45:47.

back into the council. It will do all of the things that is meant to

:45:48.:45:51.

do and that is why, for example, Suffolk county council are building

:45:52.:45:54.

a very similar plans new Ipswich to do all the things for Suffolk that

:45:55.:46:01.

this was planned to do in Norfolk. Do you ever wish you had not got

:46:02.:46:04.

involved in this? The ultimate benchmark is, is this the great

:46:05.:46:10.

thing for Norfolk? If it is in makes me personally unpopular then that is

:46:11.:46:13.

tough luck for me because that is a decision we must make. Gavin Shuker,

:46:14.:46:19.

there is a fundamental question of democracy here because no one in

:46:20.:46:23.

West Norfolk once the incinerator but they could end up having it

:46:24.:46:26.

because it is too expensive to ditch. I have shattered the

:46:27.:46:30.

environment Department and watch the story unfold. It has been a slow

:46:31.:46:35.

motion car crash from start to finish. That is why we now have a

:46:36.:46:39.

Labour administration now running Norfolk county council and the

:46:40.:46:42.

Conservatives have to take responsibility for what has happened

:46:43.:46:46.

on their watch. I do not know what will happen on Monday but the

:46:47.:46:48.

councillors have an impossible situation, set up entirely by the

:46:49.:46:54.

Tory ministries should. Baroness Scott, do you have any sympathy with

:46:55.:46:58.

the Conservatives? When they went into that it was with good

:46:59.:47:01.

intentions, something must be done with Norfolk's waste. We have a bit

:47:02.:47:08.

of an obsession with big project, and you can actually do small`scale

:47:09.:47:12.

waste to energy which in many ways are an easier sell the local

:47:13.:47:15.

community because what many people object to is the feeling that the

:47:16.:47:21.

the dumping ground for waste. You can do that. It does not excite

:47:22.:47:27.

people very much to think about energy, be money from energy going

:47:28.:47:32.

back to the council. If you are treating community buildings and

:47:33.:47:34.

making life better for local people the debate becomes rather different.

:47:35.:47:39.

Because there is a question, a really difficult question, but what

:47:40.:47:43.

we do with all this waste. You must take people along with you. The

:47:44.:47:48.

council has gotten into a model, hasn't it, Gavin Shuker? Absolutely

:47:49.:47:54.

but it is not only the council that is to blame, I have shattered this

:47:55.:48:00.

department. The Treasury and DEFRA must take responsibility as well.

:48:01.:48:06.

They awarded the money and they took it away. It is a terrible

:48:07.:48:08.

administration that this administration must work through,

:48:09.:48:11.

but I am sure they will work through it. The next thing you in Norfolk

:48:12.:48:16.

realise that your services have been cut, don't forget who did that. That

:48:17.:48:20.

is a terrible abdication of responsibility from the

:48:21.:48:22.

Conservatives. We must leave it there.

:48:23.:48:28.

How hard do you find it getting an appointment at your GP? Not easy?

:48:29.:48:33.

You'd the bad news. Recent evidence shows it is likely to get worse.

:48:34.:48:37.

Because that is not enough doctors. It has been blamed on the huge

:48:38.:48:40.

changes in the health service made six months ago when GPs took control

:48:41.:48:44.

of their budgets. The problem is particularly bad in Essex.

:48:45.:48:49.

Doctor Smith here from the Mayflower medical centre. Hello, Doctor. How

:48:50.:48:58.

are you? I'm fine, the one on my legs has gone down. Instead of

:48:59.:49:03.

seeing her face`to`face, Doctor Alan Smith speaks to Valerie Watson on

:49:04.:49:06.

the phone. This new way of working means that doctors can assess

:49:07.:49:10.

whether a patient action means `` actually needs to come in and if

:49:11.:49:14.

they do they can be seen more quickly. That is worth taking a look

:49:15.:49:20.

at today if that is all right. That would be perfect, thank you. They

:49:21.:49:26.

are short of two doctors at this practice and is now the remaining

:49:27.:49:29.

ones can spend up to four hours per day on the phone. The old system of

:49:30.:49:35.

falling AGP, given the number of resources and falling numbers of

:49:36.:49:39.

GPs, is not working here. We have a two or three weeks with four

:49:40.:49:44.

appointments. Did you imagine you would spend four hours per day on

:49:45.:49:50.

the phone? Absolutely not. The traditional model of being a

:49:51.:49:52.

doctor, dressing people face`to`face and helping them but with the way

:49:53.:49:58.

things are, I do not see a choice for us as a practice. A recent

:49:59.:50:01.

survey shows the problem is particularly acute in Essex. Last

:50:02.:50:07.

year, GPs in north`east Essex had 1587 patients each which was already

:50:08.:50:11.

higher than the national average. That has now risen to 18th `` that

:50:12.:50:17.

is now risen to 1000 818 patients each which means fewer available

:50:18.:50:22.

appointments. We have Cambridge above us and London beside us, so we

:50:23.:50:26.

will always struggle. It is geography. This is a great place to

:50:27.:50:31.

live but the attraction for doctors from other areas and doctors

:50:32.:50:35.

entering the country, if they would get this part of the world, we will

:50:36.:50:40.

look at London and Cambridge. Cabbie changes exacerbated the problem? I

:50:41.:50:46.

am sure that. The huge new organisation, the instability that

:50:47.:50:50.

this causes, people are not quite sure what general practice will look

:50:51.:50:56.

at in a few years time. People are not sure if it will be here. It is

:50:57.:51:00.

not just you in Essex there is a shortage, many have given you the

:51:01.:51:06.

service are no bearing out. One of those is Doctor Tony Hillier, in awe

:51:07.:51:10.

publisher GP who now works part`time. There is this buzz word

:51:11.:51:14.

about the transformation of general practice, this idea that if you will

:51:15.:51:20.

together into larger units and bigger organisations somehow you can

:51:21.:51:25.

deliver these services and also deliver the Medicare. But that is

:51:26.:51:29.

still dependent on having a workforce that can do that. That is

:51:30.:51:35.

another big issue, recruitment and retention of people within the

:51:36.:51:39.

practice. That is the problem here. It is likely that the way GPs work

:51:40.:51:44.

will have to continue changing and more of us might face consultations

:51:45.:51:50.

like this in the future. In an ideal world surely you want face`to`face.

:51:51.:51:56.

I think so. And various pilot experiments on telly medicine etc

:51:57.:52:03.

are very `` have very limited success. The Suffolk MP Dan. As a

:52:04.:52:07.

practising doctor as well as the health minister. I asked if he wants

:52:08.:52:13.

doctors to work over the phone. We need to see better use of

:52:14.:52:18.

technology, this type of medicine was mentioned and it has been shown

:52:19.:52:21.

to work very well in brutal part of the country, particularly Yorkshire,

:52:22.:52:25.

there's a good example and everyone it has used very well to look after

:52:26.:52:29.

all people and that is the kind of technology that we need to see

:52:30.:52:32.

rolled out more widely. It helps take pressure off acute medical

:52:33.:52:37.

services and allow more from the medical professionals to spend more

:52:38.:52:40.

time with patients. Surely your diagnosis of when the patient walks

:52:41.:52:46.

into the room. You must see that person and a telephone conversation

:52:47.:52:49.

is not the same. It is always good to see patients but sometimes it is

:52:50.:52:53.

about making sure that UCD patient who really needs to be seen and what

:52:54.:53:00.

this kind of medicine can do is help give valuable advice to carers and

:53:01.:53:02.

other people who are looking after people, patients with long`term

:53:03.:53:06.

conditions like a mentor, and that is how it is working very well in

:53:07.:53:13.

Airedale and Yorkshire. We have many patients, although patients with

:53:14.:53:16.

multiple medical conditions through a living in the own homes and it is

:53:17.:53:18.

important that we provide high`quality care for those people

:53:19.:53:23.

in their own homes. And we must make sure that there is access to a GP

:53:24.:53:26.

and medical care when the `` when it is appropriate. It also having the

:53:27.:53:32.

right technology in place to support the dignity and care at home and in

:53:33.:53:35.

the community is also important. Why do we not have enough GPs? That is

:53:36.:53:40.

not actually true if you look at the East of England, there are issues in

:53:41.:53:44.

Essex and measures being put in place to support people there to

:53:45.:53:49.

choose to work in Essex but in the East of England we have a very

:53:50.:53:54.

high, very good GP to patient ratio. Is not just Essex, there are

:53:55.:54:00.

problems elsewhere. It is not just an isolated case in Essex. You have

:54:01.:54:04.

picked on, as you would do any programme like this, a particular

:54:05.:54:07.

situation that is a difficult situation and that is something that

:54:08.:54:12.

health education in England, the body that recruits and looks after

:54:13.:54:17.

patients to make sure we have the right stuff, are addressing as a

:54:18.:54:22.

priority. But the whole of the region we have a very high number of

:54:23.:54:25.

GPs relative to other parts of the country. This is a well rewarded job

:54:26.:54:30.

and that is why we have a lot of GPs working in the East of England. In

:54:31.:54:33.

the government changes responsible? Essex is not an isolated case, we

:54:34.:54:38.

are seeing fewer GPs and how the government changes responsible?

:54:39.:54:43.

People don't want to be counters, Commissioners... That is not true.

:54:44.:54:50.

You are asserting but there are cases in all parts of the country

:54:51.:54:52.

where there are difficulties recruiting GPs and we know that, but

:54:53.:54:56.

nevertheless in our region as a whole we have more GPs per patient

:54:57.:55:00.

than in any other part of the country. Those are the plain fact of

:55:01.:55:04.

the matter because this is a desirable place to come and work.

:55:05.:55:08.

Thank you very much. Gavin Shuker, would you be happy to

:55:09.:55:12.

talk to you doctor over the phone about a problem you had one of your

:55:13.:55:15.

family members at # in some cases, yes, but we know how the system when

:55:16.:55:23.

you can see your GP team quickly. You can get treated well. That has a

:55:24.:55:26.

system inherited by this government. What they have done is, we have put

:55:27.:55:31.

any vast reorganisation of the NHS and the first effect of that is that

:55:32.:55:35.

GPs are looking around and saying, when is the certainty and saying,

:55:36.:55:38.

when is the certainty around and buy .com from? Secondly, we spent seven

:55:39.:55:42.

years teaching at how to use a scalpel but no time teaching them

:55:43.:55:45.

how to use a spreadsheet. These doctors are using their time to

:55:46.:55:48.

manage the NHS when they should be treating patients. Baroness Scott,

:55:49.:55:52.

Gavin Shuker said it is all your governments fault, the changes are

:55:53.:55:57.

responsible for the shortage of GPs, is he right? I have been around

:55:58.:56:00.

longer, and another Tony Blair getting into terrible trouble some

:56:01.:56:05.

years ago because he was apparently unaware that people were having

:56:06.:56:06.

difficulty getting appointments with GPs, so I think you actually have to

:56:07.:56:14.

get the diagnosis right here. There has been a long`term problem of

:56:15.:56:16.

fewer trainee doctors wanting to become GPs. They going to

:56:17.:56:23.

consultancy. It is currently 35 or 40%. How do you change that? I am

:56:24.:56:28.

not sure because for many of them it is more interesting and attractive

:56:29.:56:32.

option to avoid a special is a much to work that way. I know the

:56:33.:56:36.

government is aware of this and they say they are going to do various

:56:37.:56:40.

things to try and persuade trainee doctors to move on, so I think we

:56:41.:56:47.

must be really careful not to try addressing a long`term problem with

:56:48.:56:50.

the short political fix. Would later change this model, Gavin Shuker?

:56:51.:56:58.

This has been ruled out by a number of CCG 's, the problem is that the

:56:59.:57:03.

government is no directing those. We would repeal this. We think this is

:57:04.:57:11.

a problem. By Mac `` doesn't this make things worse? Basic problem

:57:12.:57:15.

here is that at the local level there are not the resources being

:57:16.:57:23.

shredded adequately. The mass of the organisation of the NHS that is

:57:24.:57:26.

really happened must be settled down but we must find a weighted equally

:57:27.:57:31.

the worst aspects of it. An example would be this, the competition

:57:32.:57:33.

commission is deciding what is best for patients, not the NHS. That

:57:34.:57:39.

can't be right. If we carry on down that route we will get more of what

:57:40.:57:44.

we have seen here. I must stop here. It is time for our political

:57:45.:57:58.

round`up of the week. At PMQ 's comedy the Norwich South

:57:59.:58:00.

MP Simon Wright hailed the government's dualling of the

:58:01.:58:04.

elephant. It was a big boost from the's economy. Can I urge the prime

:58:05.:58:12.

minister to continue to East for the powerhouse for economic growth and

:58:13.:58:14.

back the opportunities available to invest in the 80s to mainline? The

:58:15.:58:19.

PM would not be drawn on it but had this to say. For once the shadow

:58:20.:58:24.

chancellor said something I agree with because he wants to watch the

:58:25.:58:29.

Canaries and he will be able to get there quicker. In a debate on

:58:30.:58:32.

airports, some East MPs through the weeping in US city airport in the

:58:33.:58:38.

Thames. That is not a single objection that has been raised to

:58:39.:58:43.

stop this airport. Not a single objection. Number and a show

:58:44.:58:49.

stopper. Nick Clegg went to nursery in Cambridge to trumpet free

:58:50.:59:00.

childcare for poorer families. Baroness Scott, let me ask you, is

:59:01.:59:04.

the selection meeting? Lib Dem saying, we're not the

:59:05.:59:07.

Conservatives! Will we see more of it? I do not see why not. We are

:59:08.:59:13.

around 18 months from an election in the political parties will start

:59:14.:59:16.

talking about what the plan. Gavin has been doing it today and that is

:59:17.:59:20.

quite right. Voters want to know what we are about and watch to make

:59:21.:59:24.

an informed choice. If the split is there, will the Coalition holds? We

:59:25.:59:28.

have always been to different parties, I don't know why people

:59:29.:59:31.

find it so difficult to get their heads in this. We are to parties and

:59:32.:59:36.

always wear and we remain to parties. As you get closer to the

:59:37.:59:40.

election the focus moves on to what your policies are for beyond the

:59:41.:59:47.

election. Gavin Shuker, commentators are saying we are seeing more of a

:59:48.:59:50.

similarity with Labour and the Lib Dems moving closer together. What do

:59:51.:59:56.

you think about that? We must judge the Lib Dems on their record in

:59:57.:00:01.

government, and who has of things such as the schools and otherwise

:00:02.:00:05.

will not fill voters. Having said that, there are many Lib Dems who

:00:06.:00:09.

would be very pleased to get Ed Miliband into Downing Street just as

:00:10.:00:12.

we have. If we end up in that situation then they will line up

:00:13.:00:15.

behind this. What is the big challenge for the Lib Dems? The same

:00:16.:00:20.

challenge it has always been, demonstrating that we are an

:00:21.:00:25.

individual political force with their own beliefs but respecting the

:00:26.:00:30.

ballot box in 2010, we have very many fewer seats and there is always

:00:31.:00:34.

a balance at the punching your weight but being aware that we did

:00:35.:00:38.

not actually win the election ourselves, so you must accept that

:00:39.:00:43.

you go along with some things that you'd make not do if you are in

:00:44.:00:47.

government by yourself. Difficult. It is. Do you fancy a coalition?

:00:48.:00:54.

Would we are set nicely there? Is the possibility of equality, my

:00:55.:00:59.

personal view is that it will be a Labour government next time round

:01:00.:01:02.

and we will work hard for that. That is the most likely outcome because

:01:03.:01:06.

of the structural shift in politics. If we end up in that situation there

:01:07.:01:10.

are some prominent left`wing Lib Dems who could put up with. Thank

:01:11.:01:13.

you both very much. That is all for now. You can keep in touch via our

:01:14.:01:18.

website and you will find links to their to our blog. Goodbye.

:01:19.:01:19.

website and you will find links to free school area for into that

:01:20.:01:32.

Is Labour about to drop its support category. Thank you.

:01:33.:01:32.

Is Labour about to drop its support for High Speed 2, a rail line the

:01:33.:01:36.

party approved while in government? for High Speed 2, a rail line the

:01:37.:01:47.

these green shoots? These are all questions for The Week Ahead.

:01:48.:01:59.

So, HS2. Miss Flint wouldn't answer the question. She's in northern MP

:02:00.:02:04.

too. Ed Balls is comparing it to the Millennium Dome.

:02:05.:02:09.

too. Ed Balls is comparing it to the minute's silence for HS2? It will

:02:10.:02:14.

not be quite as crude as that. They will not stand up and say, we

:02:15.:02:19.

not be quite as crude as that. They senior Labour person said to me it

:02:20.:02:19.

would be a bit senior Labour person said to me it

:02:20.:02:22.

that Gordon Brown and Ed Balls set for the euro back in 97. They will

:02:23.:02:28.

be chucking lots of questions into the air, and the questions will

:02:29.:02:32.

create doubt, and will create the grounds for Labour to say, at some

:02:33.:02:39.

point, we think there is a much much better way of spending the money. It

:02:40.:02:43.

isn't ?42 billion, because that includes a contingency. Let's see

:02:44.:02:50.

what Peter Mandelson had to say about HS2. He was in the government

:02:51.:02:57.

when Labour supported it. Frankly, there was too much of the argument

:02:58.:03:01.

that if everyone else has got a high-speed train, we should have won

:03:02.:03:08.

too. Regardless of need, regardless of cost, and regardless of

:03:09.:03:14.

alternatives. As a party, to be frank, we didn't feel like being

:03:15.:03:19.

trumped by the zeal of the then opposition's support for the

:03:20.:03:26.

high-speed train. We wanted, if anything, to upstage them. So they

:03:27.:03:31.

didn't really need it, and we're only talking about ?50 billion. Why

:03:32.:03:38.

would you take a decision involving ?50 billion in a serious way? For

:03:39.:03:43.

David Cameron, if it becomes clear Labour is against it, he cannot

:03:44.:03:48.

proceed. He indicated last week that he wouldn't proceed if the certainty

:03:49.:03:53.

wasn't there. For Labour, HS2 is really a debate about the deficit by

:03:54.:03:57.

proxy. They think that if you don't go ahead with HS2, that releases

:03:58.:04:01.

tens of billions of pounds to spend on other things, such as public

:04:02.:04:06.

services, without going into boring. I don't think that works because

:04:07.:04:28.

there was a difference between cancelling something that already

:04:29.:04:30.

exists to pay for something else, and cancelling something that does

:04:31.:04:33.

not yet exist and will be paid for over decades to pay for something

:04:34.:04:35.

here and now. Can Labour do this? I know that the line will be, we are

:04:36.:04:39.

not going to build this railway because we are going to build

:04:40.:04:41.

200,000 houses a year. Can they do this without political cost? I think

:04:42.:04:43.

there will be political costs, but they will play this card of we have

:04:44.:04:48.

changed our mind. I think Cameron's line has been very clever, saying we

:04:49.:04:53.

cannot do it without labour. You can put it in two ways. Sorry, we cannot

:04:54.:04:58.

go ahead with it, but Labour has ruined your chance of prosperity, or

:04:59.:05:03.

they can tie themselves to it, and then Labour cannot attack it on

:05:04.:05:09.

great grounds when costs do spire. You can write Labour's script right

:05:10.:05:15.

now. They can say, if we were in charge, the financial management

:05:16.:05:22.

would be much better. This raises some really important questions for

:05:23.:05:27.

the government. They have utterly failed to make the case for HS2

:05:28.:05:33.

There is a real case to make. Between London and Birmingham it is

:05:34.:05:38.

about capacity not speed. North of Birmingham, it is about

:05:39.:05:42.

connectivity. It is a simple case to make, but it is only in the last

:05:43.:05:46.

month that they have been making that case. It shows really terrible

:05:47.:05:50.

complacency in the coalition that they haven't done that. We'll HS2

:05:51.:05:58.

happen or not? I think it will. For the reasons that Nick outlined,

:05:59.:06:02.

there is not of a constituency for it amongst Northern areas. -- there

:06:03.:06:11.

is enough of a constituency for it. There is private investment as well.

:06:12.:06:18.

It isn't like Heathrow. I say no, because I think Labour will drop

:06:19.:06:24.

their support for it. Caroline Flint said she was in favour of the

:06:25.:06:27.

concept of trains generally, but will it go further than that? It is

:06:28.:06:33.

difficult to see how it will go ahead if Labour will not support it

:06:34.:06:38.

after setting five tests that it clearly will not meet. Some will

:06:39.:06:46.

breathe a sigh of relief. Some will say, even in the 20th century, we

:06:47.:06:51.

cannot build a proper rail network. The economy was another big story of

:06:52.:06:56.

the week. We had those GDP figures. There is a video the Tories are

:06:57.:07:02.

releasing. The world premiere is going to be here. Where's the red

:07:03.:07:06.

carpet? It gives an indication of how the Tories will hand Mr Miliband

:07:07.:07:10.

and labour in the run-up to the election. Let's have a look at it.

:07:11.:07:43.

These graphics are even worse than the ones we use on our show! How on

:07:44.:07:50.

earth would you expect that to go viral? It did have a strange feel

:07:51.:07:58.

about it. It doesn't understand the Internet at all. Who is going to

:07:59.:08:03.

read those little screens between it? Put a dog in it! However,

:08:04.:08:15.

putting that aside, I have no idea that that is going to go viral. The

:08:16.:08:20.

Tories are now operating - and I say Tories rather than the coalition -

:08:21.:08:27.

on the assumption that the economy is improving and will continue to

:08:28.:08:31.

improve, and that that will become more obvious as 2014 goes on. We

:08:32.:08:36.

just saw their how they will fight the campaign. Yes, and at the

:08:37.:08:43.

crucial moment, you will reach the point where wages. To rise at a

:08:44.:08:47.

faster pace than inflation, and then people will start to, in the words

:08:48.:08:52.

of Harold Macmillan, feel that they have never had it so good. That is

:08:53.:08:57.

the key moment. If the economy is growing, there is a rule of thumb

:08:58.:09:06.

that the government should get a benefit. But it doesn't always work

:09:07.:09:08.

like that. The fundamental point here is that Ed Miliband has had a

:09:09.:09:12.

great month. He has totally set the agenda. He has set the agenda with

:09:13.:09:17.

something - freezing energy prices - that may not work. That video shows

:09:18.:09:22.

that the Conservatives want to get the debate back to the

:09:23.:09:25.

fundamentals. That this is a party that told us for three years that

:09:26.:09:33.

this coalition was telling us to -- was taking us to hell on a handcart.

:09:34.:09:38.

That doesn't seem to have happened. The energy price was a very clever

:09:39.:09:45.

thing, at the party conference season, which now seems years ago.

:09:46.:09:49.

They saw that the recovery was going to happen, so they changed the

:09:50.:09:56.

debate to living standards. Some economists are now privately

:09:57.:10:00.

expecting growth to be 3% next year, which was inconceivable for five

:10:01.:10:05.

months ago. If growth is 3% next year, living standards will start to

:10:06.:10:07.

rise again. Where does Labour go then? I would go further, and say

:10:08.:10:14.

that even though Ed Miliband has made a small political victory on

:10:15.:10:18.

living standards, it hasn't registered in the polls. Those polls

:10:19.:10:25.

have been contracted since April -- have been contracting since April.

:10:26.:10:29.

That macro economic story matters more than the issue of living

:10:30.:10:34.

standards. The interesting thing about the recovery is it confounds

:10:35.:10:38.

everybody. No one was predicting, not the Treasury, not the media not

:10:39.:10:44.

the IMF, not the academics, and the only people I can think of... I fit

:10:45.:10:51.

-- I thought they knew everything! The only people I know who did are

:10:52.:10:57.

one adviser who is very close to George Osborne, and the clever hedge

:10:58.:11:00.

fund is who were buying British equities back in January. Because

:11:01.:11:05.

the Treasury's record is so appalling, no one believe them, but

:11:06.:11:09.

they were saying around February, March this year, that by the end of

:11:10.:11:15.

the summer, the recovery would be gathering momentum. For once, they

:11:16.:11:23.

turned out to be right! They said that the economy would be going gang

:11:24.:11:26.

bust is! Where did the new Tory voters come from? I agree, if the

:11:27.:11:34.

economic recovery continues, the coalition will be stronger. But

:11:35.:11:43.

where will they get new voters from? For people who sign up to help to

:11:44.:11:47.

buy, they will be locked into nice mortgages at a low interest rate,

:11:48.:11:51.

and just as you go into a general election, if you are getting 3%

:11:52.:11:57.

growth and unemployment is down the Bank of England will have to review

:11:58.:12:00.

their interest rates. People who are getting nice interest rates now may

:12:01.:12:05.

find that it is not like that in a few months time. The point John

:12:06.:12:12.

Major was making implicitly was that Mrs Thatcher could speak to people

:12:13.:12:16.

on low incomes. John Major could not speak to them -- John Major could

:12:17.:12:21.

speak to them. But this coalition cannot speak to them. This idea

:12:22.:12:25.

about the reshuffle was that David Cameron wanted more Northern voices,

:12:26.:12:33.

more women, to make it look like it was not a party of seven men. When

:12:34.:12:38.

David Cameron became leader, John Major said, I do not speak very

:12:39.:12:43.

often, but when I do, I will help you, because I think you are good

:12:44.:12:47.

thing and I do not want to be like Margaret Thatcher. But that speech

:12:48.:12:52.

was clearly a lament for the party he believed that David Cameron was

:12:53.:12:56.

going to lead and create, but that isn't happening. And energy prices

:12:57.:13:03.

continue into this coming week. We have the companies going before a

:13:04.:13:07.

select committee. My information is they are sending along the secondary

:13:08.:13:11.

division, not the boss. How can they get along -- get away with that I

:13:12.:13:17.

got the letter through from British Gas this week explaining why my

:13:18.:13:21.

bills are going up, and at no point since this became a story have any

:13:22.:13:25.

of the big companies handled it well. I will have to leave it there.

:13:26.:13:30.

Make sure you pay your bill! That's it for today. The Daily Politics is

:13:31.:13:37.

back on BBC Two tomorrow. I will be back here on BBC One next Sunday.

:13:38.:13:44.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it is The Sunday Politics.

:13:45.:13:51.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS