03/11/2013 Sunday Politics East


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as


Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to


MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate


the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that


capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong


arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be


sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they


should be covered up. In Norwich, plans to make the EU


Goodbye. In Norwich, plans to make the EU


bigger, could In Norwich, plans to make the EU


our midst. In London why one local authority is investigating --


investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on


its staff. With me as always, the best and the


brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt


who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they


got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to


a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home


Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the


treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met


him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was


prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.


But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.


Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.


The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there


enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the


police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad


and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for


contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to


prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what


is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try


to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from


day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I


knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.


And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as


to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not


will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the


Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can


say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under


statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This


is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy


of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will


keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung


the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like


his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the


report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in


Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as


deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len


McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out


the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a


petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the


Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come


under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance


demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of


a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy


the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems


to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in


deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him


as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of


labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend


of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any


wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len


McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is


in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion


trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved


in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing


new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in


the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had


done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in


Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says


you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to


fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you


thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the


Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then


instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and


during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened


and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I


was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent


enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing


because the people who originally complained changed their evidence


and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to


rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.


We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that


all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting


the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are


allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were


put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they


doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations


that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea


that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families


has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They


clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved


in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.


Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they


are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position


is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw


their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his


family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full


weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to


Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an


independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central


office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,


the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks


for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since


when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to


the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and


it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making


decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift


back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent


protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was


not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling


everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had


loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to


join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the


Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going


to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were


loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the


Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have


used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at


people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to


look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an


absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the


21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the


wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever


it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk


constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your


opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con


trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your


legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of


trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband


wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way


ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company


started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,


that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called


INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring


Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to


a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who


says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it


in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make


that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You


instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what


Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the


petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due


introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was


being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost


Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was


saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and


humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len


McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with


INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop


stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns


and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has


condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have


you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour


Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested


in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the


requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last


Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will


continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they


are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.


You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.


We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company


to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking


unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive


industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all


Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to


implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is


what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our


members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not


be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as


disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My


membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are


executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me


standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I


will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us


by the media. "A country ready to welcome your


investment which values your friendship and will never exclude


anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The


words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which


was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm


words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a


spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the


wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of


some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the


Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.


First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east


London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,


one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it


frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the


British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,


traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate


to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one


question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to


address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront


radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of


sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not


nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young


Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using


Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this


work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has


been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public


to please people but in private something very different is being


said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,


it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for


radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's


faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if


rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some


sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,


and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and


it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially


when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to


talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There


is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the


one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist


perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of


minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public


places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy


of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and


that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the


preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council


of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating


sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved


predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for


some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We


need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the


normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and


chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that


actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible


with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to


women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures


of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain


itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they


are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to


are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are


experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages


what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not


being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance


rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been


found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in


this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what


are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem


of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be


exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many


Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a


big cultural gap will exist between the two.


And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq


Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the


veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible


to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory


requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting


themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst


wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life


successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red


herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim


girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point


of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the


public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones


who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a


practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour


it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women


should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the


veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is


important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free


choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their


free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it


helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away


from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad


thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim


preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim


women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim


women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being


forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and


what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,


very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is


wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other


Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider


that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any


Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an


organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not


coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by


individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that


would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would


not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires


children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you


agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have


just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a


black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on


anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.


I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think


it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would


wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some


muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the


start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I


would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic


girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the


top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.


But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those


girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I


am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.


There is a very conservative movement from the continent on


Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their


website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged


to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should


not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you


think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They


are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree


with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is


what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is


quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you


agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back


to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.


This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.


Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday


mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your


counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they


have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is


advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the


Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The


Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots


of common issues to create a community which positively


integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate


for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications


available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your


organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall


under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British


mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of


prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to


prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very


beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?


Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council


have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious


stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at


this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.


That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we


live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they


have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You


would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like


that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation


to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission s


rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law


of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger


issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul


declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it


or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media


mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself


from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration


because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign


it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the


declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there


was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not


what was meant by the declaration. When did you decide so is the


yourself from the declaration? From day one. We never signed it. The


East London Mosque which you are personally closely associated with


is the venue for a number of extremist speakers, who espoused


extremist positions. In 2009 the mosque posted a video and


presentation by somebody described by the UN Security Council as an


Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another speaker described Christians and


Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad is supporter of the Taliban there.


Why do you do nothing to stop extremists like that at this mask


with which you are associated with? We do not have anything to do with


any rhetoric that condones or supported violence. We issue


guidelines and the mosque itself is a registered charity which has its


own rules and regulations, but it is a very large mosques and lots of


organisations book and come and told their gatherings. We rent out the


facilities. You were prepared to speak alongside a man who saluted


suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy. Why would you


share a platform like that? I did not share a platform like that.


Different organisations come and have conferences here. Why did you


agree? I did not agree with that. I completely reject that. When you add


all this up the attitude to women, the alliance with the most


fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the toleration of intolerant views, a


willingness for you to be counted among them, why should anybody of


goodwill, either a Muslim or a non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good


force? It is an organisation which embraces different organisations


which are affiliated in the Muslim community. You have taken snippets


of certain individual views which are not the views of our affiliates.


It would be unfair to represent our view based on those which you have


highlighted in this programme. The work that we do is quite clear and


is on our website. They are all associated with you, but we will


have to leave it there. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming


up: I will be talking to joke Scots in Corby losing out on the


vote for Scottish Hello and welcome to your local part


of the programme. Coming up. 62.


I stand for a full house at Holyrood but not one collected by Corby Scots


living South of the border. `` EYES DOWN.


I have invited government ministers to come here and listen to people 's


views. The EU ruling that could lead to more people living here.


We have got to sort out the EU itself. As the deed is finally done,


or is it? Norfolk fights for a new incinerator, but this man has the


final say. I am joined by the South and fit MP


Richard Bacon and former MP for Northampton North Sally Keble,


fighting the seat again for Labour this time. Starting with the story


of the week. The big storm. Let's look at the pictures. This is the


aftermath of the 80 mph winds. This was blown over in Suffolk, thousands


of train travel is faced disruption, more than 200 trees obstructing the


lines were removed. 100,000 homes in the East had no electricity at one


stage, several thousand people had no power for days. We had three


times the staffing levels, we were prepared for that, we were prepared


over the weekend. We were as ready as we could be but the scale of


those wins over such a short period meant regrettably some customers


could not get through and I am sorry. `` winds. But we did


everything we could do. Your fellow East MP is contacted as


saying that when she contacted networks on Monday, they did not


have a clue which areas were without power, were we prepared well enough?


People like the Fire and emergency planning people were prepared but


the power companies were not. To say we did everything we possibly could


when people could not through on the phone and they did not have the


information about power outages is not good enough. Resilience means


coping in extreme circumstances and having a contingency plan to allow


you to make extra stuff available at short notice.


Did the authorities do as much as they could? Had emergency planning


committees but it did not seem there were functioning well enough. ``


they had. The local authority probably did


quite well but there was an issue with power companies. For them to


save their were not warned was a nonsense because there was a lot of


warning about a storm. They did say they were warned and


they put as many staff as they could available at the time out but it was


a question of information. They put the charges up, they are making


substantial profits and people are feeling the pinch because they are


paying fuel prices, so they should see continuity of service. Climatic


conditions are not going to get easier and the East of England is


under pressure from these changes, so the power companies have do


improve, a deeply as they increase their prices.


`` particularly. In less than a year, we will know if Scotland has


voted for independence. This weekend, Home Secretary to reason


may raise concerns an independent Scotland would harm national


security, but who should get a say? `` Theresa May. If you live South of


the border, it you do not get a say, and that is a problem for many


people living in Corby. Sometimes, it you get the result you want. But


on the future of Scotland 's relationship with the UK, the Scots


will have no more influence than what they do on which numbers come


up on the bingo. Many people here were born in


Scotland or their parents were but they will not get a vote in the


referendum on Scottish independence. The Conservative are counsellor here


thanks they showed, what do people here think so? `` they should. I


think they are entitled to vote the same as anybody else. Do you


identify more as a resident of Corby than a Scot? Definitely not. Still


proud of the heritage? Definitely, you never lose that and if you do,


you are not a true Scot! You were born in Scotland, would you like a


say in the referendum? Yes. Which way it will go, I do not know. The


issue affects many in this region, are more 77,000 Scottish born people


in the East of England. Corby is home to more than 7,000. It is known


as little Scotland because they represent over 12% of the


population, making it one of the largest Scottish communities in


England. I have invited to Scotland to talk


about the Corby question, which is how you make sure the voices of


people in England, especially the Scottish with strong connections to


Scotland, or heard in the independence debate. I look forward


to going there and I am happy to take part. And I also want people to


come to Corby so I have invited government ministers and Alistair


Darling to come to listen to local people. Scottish families started


coming here in the 1930s with the development of the iron and steel


works. A found jobs, and even after the factories closed, many remained


here. But why would they care whether Scotland stays part of the


UK or not? It will be more complicated to maintain some


business links and family connections because travel would


become more complex, they might have a different currency, so there are


genuine issues about the relationship between England and


Scotland and friends and families in Scotland if they go independent. I


am sure we can maintain those but I hope we can keep England and


Scotland together. Whether Scotland decides to go it alone or not, these


people remain proud of their heritage. They may not affect the


numbers in the referendum, but many still want their voices to be heard.


I spoke to Scottish National Party member of the Scottish Parliament


Stuart Macmillan and I asked him why Scots in Corby will not get a vote.


The referendum next year is about the people who live and work in


Scotland who will be entitled to vote in the referendum. But there


are many `` many English people living and working in Scotland who


got a say. You are speaking to one of them, I was then `` I was born in


Barrow in Furness, but I grew up in Scotland. Scotland is my home and I


live here and I work here and I am entitled to a vote. And everyone


else who lives and works in Scotland will be. Who has made the decision


it cannot be based upon those people who would be applicable for a


Scottish passport? The section 30 order, the Edinburgh agreement


signed between the Scottish and UK government, that allowed for the


referendum to be decided by the people of Scotland and the


Parliament in Scotland. So the referendum is being made in Scotland


for people who live and work in Scotland. So the referendum will be


about everyone who stays here, we will have that entitlement to a


vote. But is that fair? These people in Corby feel very Scottish. I have


family in Coventry and I had this discussion with them and they


understand and agree with the position. They were not sure about


it initially, but they understand it and agree with it because their


lives are not in Scotland. They left Scotland some years ago and they


live in commentary and have done longer than in Scotland. What about


those people in Corby who do not agree with the decision and


understand it? But they do not live and work in Scotland. The referendum


is about the decision for the people of Scotland who do live and work


here about what type of Scotland they want to live in. And the


referendum will provide that opportunity. There are many people


who do live and work elsewhere outside of Scotland, but their home


is not Scotland any more. Do you have any sympathy for them, it is


12,000 people? It is not about sympathy, it is about where people


live and work. That is a key issue. And another part of the referendum


and those entitled to vote next year, apart from one addition, which


is reducing the age of voting to 16 and 17`year`olds, those who will


vote at the same people who will vote in a Scottish parliamentary


election and at the local authority elections in Scotland. So there is


no difference in terms of who can and cannot vote, apart from 16 and


17`year`olds. The MP for Corby wants his constituents who believe


themselves to be Scottish, they have a strong link with Scotland, he


wants them to feel engaged in the debate. So will you speak to them? I


will happily speak to anyone about the referendum and about the voting


for next year. But at the same time, I would encourage the MP for Corby


to speak to his Labour colleagues in the Scottish Parliament who actually


agreed with this help when they voted it through on June the 27th


this year. But what about the SNP coming to Corby to speak to these


residents? There is no plan to do that. The SNP


have been very clear about who should be entitled to the vote next


year. We have been clear from the outset. There is no plan to go and


talk to people outside of Scotland about whether they can or cannot be


allowed to vote. It is our priority over the next 12 months to encourage


as many people in Scotland to vote yes in the referendum.


Thank you for joining us. Sally Keble, you have a family member with


Scottish roots, do they feel the same as these people in Corby? It is


my wonderful mother, who is a Scottish as could be and she agrees


that because she is a Scot, she should be entitled to a say. What do


you think? We had a chat and she said she recognised the difficulties


in trying to organise a vote. But she said she was born in Scotland


and brought up in Scotland. What this shows is the fact that the UK


is actually, there is a high level of integration and I think we heard


some of that in the discussion. But she definitely would agree with the


people in Corby, she wants her say. If you qualify for a Scottish


passport, should you get a vote? There is a question of, who are the


people of Scotland, people who live and work there or people who feel


Scottish? It is not fair, you might say, but as we were all told when we


were children, life is not fair. You have to have a way of deciding. You


could include other people in other parts of the UK with Scottish


ancestry. My predecessor was a Scot, he still lives in Norfolk. Scots


have been coming to Norfolk for hundreds of years because of the


agriculture and bringing their skills, and Thomas Hardy was talking


about the same in the West Country. But you could end up giving all


English people a vote and plenty want a vote. Polls show consistently


there are more English people who favour Scottish independence than


Scots. Is this a fair way to draw the line?


It is a rough and ready way, what there is a precedent for people to


have votes. You could probably enfranchise people who were born in


Scotland and have spent part of their lives and established some


connection, but it would be difficult. It would be difficult. We


do allow expats to vote in the UK elections, but that is for the whole


of the UK. But these people in Corby, if I go to Scotland, they


might have to deal with Border Control and all sorts. All the other


one, travel is not going to get more difficult! `` pull. Do we seriously


think there will be passport checks on the border? There are plenty of


parts of Europe there are no passport checks, from France to


Germany, Luxembourg to Belgium. What happens for people who live in


Scotland, who are English, and suddenly find they have to decide


about passports? They have got a passport. They will carry on having


one. We will talk about it nearer the time of the vote.


This is a question, how many countries make up the European


Union? It is 28. But it could be as many as 33. Next week, MPs will


debate the Private Members' Bill calling for an in out referendum on


Europe, but while we are talking about leaving the EU, there is no


shortage of countries wanting to join up. In the run`up to the


European elections next year, it is on the minds of MPs in Brussels,


with several in our region playing a major role in the debate.


Richard Howitt has been put in charge of both `` of overseeing the


application by Macedonia. The former Yugoslav states lies above Greece


and has a population of 2 million, a third of whom live alone the poverty


line `` state. We have companies that are today trading with


Macedonia. It is an extremely important part of the economy, it is


a fragile small country, at the benefit is already coming back. How


many more countries could be benefiting in that way if they were


to start a gauche Asians? Dash`mac negotiations. There is a lot of


unease about the EU, why do we need more countries in the EU? Why do we


need more trade for the prosperity of businesses, we do not have to


send the planes to stop the wars in places like Kosovo. How can we have


more affected orders to strop Hoople trafficking illegal immigration and


drugs, we do that by making countries more like ourselves. ``


drug`trafficking `` people trafficking. But many believe the EU


is large enough. We welcome the principle of enlargement. We want


greater stability and economic progress and peace across Europe.


But before we get onto and lodging the EU any more, we have to sort out


the EU itself `` and lodging. We want to bring about great change


before we went in more countries. These are very poor countries, their


rock 100 million population who would be entitled to come to the


rest of Europe, including the UK. `` there are 100 million. And the cost


will be 14 billion, that is extraordinary, to bring these poor


countries into Europe. People might be surprised how much


it costs to bring countries into Europe, is it worth it? There are


security issues about the Balkans and in the log `` in the longer


term, having more stability with the Balkans and countries like Turkey,


but if you look at Macedonia, a population of 2 million, 20 million


unemployed across Europe, that is the problem. And understandably in


the East of England, where there has been a history of people coming over


to get work any seasonal basis, you have to deal with the employment


issues and deal with those so that people do not feel threatened. We


need this immigration, don't we? They contribute and drive the


economy. There is no shortage of immigration and people coming here


to work. We need to make these countries more like us, that is the


problem with the EU. It is possible they do not want to become like us


and they have been Macedonia or Croatia, or whatever it is. And we


should not be involved in, we should be creating a political structure


making everybody like everyone else. You do not need yet another layer of


government to have trade, you just need people to buy and sell goods.


We have had more immigration in the East than anywhere else in the UK at


times and that has put a strain on public services. I agree, and with


trade, integration does help. That is really important and that is an


important part of the issue. But I agree that you have two look


seriously `` you have to look seriously at having proper attention


paid to services and the pressure around Europe. As part of looking at


how to create a more secure and successful Europe. This is about


keeping the bicycle moving because if it stops, it will fall off. The


EU has imposed a currency on many countries that has caused an


economic catastrophe and is a reason many are not growing. I am in favour


of the single market and I spent a lot of time in Brussels as a


journalist talking about it. They are still talking about completing


it now, the French are not that interested, they are interested in


what is best for them. Talking of the EU, this week, an MEP


is flushed with success. It is in the round`up.


Veterans of atomic tests in the 1950s had their campaign raised in


Parliament this week. The science was unknown and the risks were on


quantifiable, but the costs to veterans and their descendants is


very severe indeed. Young people demonstrated outside County Hall in


Essex at protest of cup axe that could mean the axing of youth clubs


and the loss of 170 jobs Norfolk has narrowly approved plans to build a


waste incinerator in Kings Lynn, although Eric Pickles has yet to


make a decision, expected in the New Year, over planning permission will


`` what we decided today was not to cancel a contract.


Is nothing sacred? The EU has been criticised for poking its nose in


where it is not wanted after publishing a 60 page report on


toilets. This MEP would have pushed it down the pan.


Let's talk about this incinerator. Is the story over? Will the


Secretary of State turned down planning permission? I do not know


it 's mind on this `` Jean`Eric Vergne pickle 's mind on this. A lot


of people are concerned about the penalties. `` Mr pickle 's mind on


this. The question is, why did we write a contract with such big


penalties? There has been a loss of face. There probably has, and if you


build up more capacity than you need, you end up with more road


journeys to get more rubbish going into an incident rate `` and


incinerator. What about youth services being rest in Essex? The


cuts are awful and they have come across other things that have hit


young people, a troubling of tuition fees, a cut in housing rights. That


has put a lot of pressure on young people at a time they cannot get


jobs either. Thank you, next week, we look forward to the anniversary


of the confident we will deliver that.


Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's


relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the


Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka


Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did


earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.


Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central


office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the


Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative


mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he


should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey


denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial


dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side


is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send


its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened


in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families


out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset


particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of


things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own


report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -


forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was


being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the


report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is


something that the police are looking into so that is not


something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We


learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained


to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour


Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party


and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are


looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like


the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil


Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed


Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not


worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?


Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we


have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many


respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further


ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship


with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of


the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to


vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but


they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and


that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do


things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour


Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in


which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us


in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3


million working people who ensure our public services function. At


Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk


Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd


just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to


give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be


confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to


take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our


Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed


Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in


special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite


union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean


according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the


meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer


free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your


turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the


allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the


Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their


rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at


Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of


their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to


our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will


find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets


tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working


in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port


and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets


overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from


unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite


know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears


used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private


sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was


born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of


their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they


can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But


there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is


right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for


their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their


aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their


workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the


protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has


said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.


He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the


radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that


was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend


to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like


land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing


the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.


million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The


business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances


back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being


used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater


variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro


enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a


living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but


there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business


because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is


good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are


not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax


credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know


after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living


wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and


we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party


pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a


living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.


What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle


as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one


of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this


soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working


together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.


That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be


here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at


the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.


Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.


To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.


There were the objects that were making the Earth.


We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.


Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go?


This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.


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