02/02/2014 Sunday Politics East


02/02/2014

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The unions helped

:00:37.:00:42.

him beat his brother to the top Now Ed Miliband wants to change Labour's

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relationship with them. Who will come out on top? We will be asking

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one union baron what he thinks. Cracks in the coalition after

:00:51.:00:52.

Education Secretary Michael Gove sacks the chairwoman of Ofsted. His

:00:53.:00:57.

Lib Dem deputy is said to be hopping mad. We will be talking to the new

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deputy leader of the Lib Dems, Malcolm Bruce.

:01:01.:01:04.

Caught a bout of the EU blues? David Cameron has been drowning his

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sorrows with the President of France. Who better? We will be

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asking if the EU referendum bill is dead in the water.

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And bad weather getting you down? Getting from A to B a bit of a

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nightmare? Fear not! The leader of the Greens will be here with her

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traffic and travel report. Dutch Balancing the books.

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lunchtime news. Balancing the books.

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Will it provide the kind of reassurance people want?

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Yes, all that and more in today s action-packed Sunday Politics. And

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blowing more hot air than I have had hot dinners, Helen Lewis, Nick Watt

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and Iain Martin. After the row about candidate

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selection in Falkirk, Ed Miliband said he wanted to reshape the

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relationship between Labour and the unions. The biggest changes involve

:02:03.:02:06.

union membership of the party, which in turn will affect future Labour

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leadership elections. Some claim this is Ed's Clause 4 moment. But

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the unions will continue to be powerful at conference and on the

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party's ruling committees, and they will still be able to bankroll the

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election campaign. Here is Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman,

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speaking earlier. What he is proposing for the March the 1st

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conference is a huge change in financing, in the election of the

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leader, in what goes on at local level. In due course, it might have

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implications for the NEC elections and conference. But this is already

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a big issue to take forward. Joining me now is Paul Kenny,

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general secretary of the GMB union and chair of the Trade Union and

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Labour Party Liaison Organisation. Is this Ed Miliband's Clause 4

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moment? I don't know about that It is certainly a bold move,

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particularly to have an electoral college, which as you said was the

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system which elected him in the first place. Everybody admits that

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has needed reforming for some time. Moving to a one member, one vote

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situation seems to me to be sensible. I know some people are

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upset, mostly MPs, who will lose their golden share. But it is

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nonsense that one MP should have the same vote as 1000 party members So

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the MPs have lost out. Have the unions lost out? Well, the system is

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currently that union members get a ballot paper, but they have to

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declare that they are a Labour supporter and they have to sign to

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that effect in order to participate. Then their vote is counted. At the

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last election, about 200,000 trade union members gave that indication,

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and they participated in that way. That will not change. The way it is

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organised will be different. The big change in the electoral college is

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that the logical weight given to MPs will disappear. I wonder if you have

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really lost anything. At the moment, there are about 3 million people

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automatically affiliated from the unions to the Labour Party. If only

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10% of them opt in, that will still mean twice as many union individual

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members, 300,000, versus about 180,000 Labour Party members. So

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union members and maybe even the unions will have as big an influence

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on the leadership elections as you do now, maybe bigger? Well, they are

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individual votes. Different unions support different candidates. It is

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lost in the media myth of barons and block votes, but there is an

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individual vote. Different unions recommend different candidates, and

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union members vote accordingly. Ed Miliband won more individual votes

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by a country mile than David, but it got messed up in the process of this

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electoral college. As I have understood the proposals so far

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they are not a done deal. There is a lot of discussion. But it seems

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there are three hurdles. Firstly, union members themselves will have

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to agree whether they want to affiliate to the Labour Party. If

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they don't, the rest of it falls. If they decide they do my they will ask

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union members to support that an individual basis the next five

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years, which will have financial implications. Then there will be a

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third position, which is that people who may want to agree with the

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union's position and affiliate with the Labour Party may want to go

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further and become active supporters of the Labour Party, participating

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in leadership elections. They will have to give their sanction to that

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at a third stage. So the implications in terms of

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constituency parties and so on are a lot less than the idea that the 3

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million who are currently affiliated will change. At the moment, the

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unions, because of the automatic affiliation, hand over a affiliation

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fees of about ?8 million a year to Labour. You will now get to keep

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that money, because the individuals will have to put up the money

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themselves. You can keep that money and determine if you give it to

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Labour to fight the election campaign, correct? Incorrect.

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Firstly, the affiliation fees are paid from what is called the

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political fund, which most unions have to set up in order to

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participate. The union will continue to pay the ?3 a affiliation fee for

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those members who want the union to be affiliated. But you get to keep a

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lot more money. In reality, we will see a transitional period of a few

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years. Less people will probably say yes, depending on how popular Labour

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are, about whether they want the union to give money to the Labour

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Party. The GMB has already done this. By the way, don't call me

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kneel. It is Andrew or Mr Neil. The unions will have a bigger chunk of

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money because the unions will not be handing over all of the money at one

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time. But you could still play a major part in funding the Labour

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election campaign. We'll how much you give the dependent on what the

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Labour Party puts in its manifesto? Of course it will. It will have to

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justify our support to Labour for the members who provide money to the

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political fund. If we did not argue for the cert is social justice

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campaigns and laws we want to see, we would be failing in our job. I

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don't intend to hide that from anybody. The unions are there to

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fight for their members. That is our job. So you will still be a major

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part of the bankroll of the Labour campaign. You will still have 5 % of

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the votes at a Labour conference, and you will still have a major part

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in the Labour National executive committee and the policy committee.

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It is right to say the unions are still at the heart of Labour, are

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they not? Well, if you sick to break the affiliated link between trade

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unions and the Labour Party, the whole thing collapses. That is what

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anchors the Labour Party as far as we are concerned. Many of our

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members think that when they want to look for ferrochrome and rights

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social justice, housing and the health service, Labour are better it

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quipped to deliver that for working people than the current parties

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That is why we have traditionally supported them. But not at all of

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our members support Labour, which is why we don't affiliate all of them

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to Labour. There are over 30 million people in the British labour force

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now. Union membership is only 6 5 million out of that 30. A 6.5% of

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that do not vote Labour, they vote Tory or liberal or nationalist in

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Scotland. So you are a relatively small pressure group. Why should

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Labour be in thrall to you? We are the biggest voluntary organisation

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in this country. Sorry about that, but that is the fact. People make

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conscious choices. My own union the GMB, has been growing for eight

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years. So this dying picture you are trying to paint... In terms of

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accounting for the fact that some do not support Labour, that is why

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unions do not affiliate all of their members to the Labour Party. We have

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adjusted to that. If you don't like being called Neil, I don't like

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being called a barren either. What about Mr Baron? I don't like that

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either. We are representatives of working organisations. It may be

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inconvenient for politicians to have to listen to working people, but we

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will continue to press. Lord Baron, thank you very much.

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So, is this a Clause 4 moment for Ed Miliband? Not really, but to his

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credit, he is going ahead with this. There was a point at which it looked

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as though Ed Miliband would back away from reform. To his credit he

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is trying to create a mass membership party again. But when it

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comes to the crucial business of funding a general election campaign,

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these reforms will make Labour more reliant on large donations from

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trade unions. They could have more power now, because they get to hold

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back this money, whereas beforehand, they had to hand it over

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automatically. As Mr Kenny just said, how much they handover will be

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dependent on good behaviour. Yes, but these are pragmatic reforms The

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fact that Ed Miliband has a lot of capital in not being seen as a

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Blairite has helped him get these through . The response has been

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muted, which suggests good party management on his behalf. That may

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be because they will still have 50% of the votes at a party conference.

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Mr Kenny was clear that that could be deal-breaker if they tried to

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take that away. They have more places at the NEC than anyone else,

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and party members, if only 10% of them signed up, they will outweigh

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individual members in the constituencies. It was interesting,

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how relaxed Paul Kenny was. He was taking thousands of pounds from the

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Labour Party a few months ago because he was annoyed about these

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reforms, and now he is relaxed because they still have 50% of the

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vote at Labour Party conference and Labour Party Parliamentary

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candidates are still selected in the same way. But there is a simple

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point here. Yes, you can pick apart what Ed Miliband said and said the

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unions have too much influence, but the only way he could have gone all

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the way was to break the link with the trade unions, and he was not

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going to do that. It was not the Labour Party that founded the

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unions, it was the unions that founded the Labour Party. Even Tony

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Blair did not break the link. In that context, Ed Miliband has gone

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incredibly far. For the last 50 years, this opting into the union,

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you have to turn to page 50 of your union terms and conditions to say,

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do you want to opt out of the political levy 's that is going to

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go, which will mean that when the next Labour leader is elected from

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the union votes, they will get their ballot from the Labour Party and you

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will append the fast where ballots went out from Unison macro and GMB

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with a picture of Ed Miliband on the front of the ballot paper saying,

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vote for aid. They were Stasi and Saddam Hussein ways of trade union

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members electing the Labour leader, which will go. I am sorry his

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Lordship is not still here to answer that question.

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HMS Coalition is not a happy ship. The lovey-dovey days in the rose

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garden are long gone. It is not a loveless marriage, perhaps even an

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open one. The latest split is over the decision by Education Secretary

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Michael Gove to replace Labour peer Sally Morgan as head of the schools

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inspectorate, Ofsted. Mr Gove's deputy, Lib Dem David Laws, is said

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to be spitting blood about her removal, although only through

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surrogates. He has not said a word on the record. Here was the

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Education Secretary a little earlier. If there is another

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opportunity for Sally to serve in a different role at a different time,

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then I would be delighted to support her in the role which she thinks it

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is appropriate to do. There is nothing wrong with Sally but there

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is a principle across government that there should be no automatic

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reappointment, and that after three or four years, it is appropriate to

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bring in a fresh pair of eyes. That is good corporate practice in order

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to ensure that you refresh boards, bring a new perspective, and have

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tough questions asked. We're joined now by the newly elected deputy

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leader of the Liberal Democrats Malcolm Bruce. He's in Aberdeen

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Laws is said to be furious

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with Michael Gove, is he? I think he is because Sally Morgan has been

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doing a good job and that has been generally agreed across the whole

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spectrum. I think Ofsted is an impartial body that inspects all

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schools and it shouldn't be subject to some kind of political direction.

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That is the concern, that she is being removed when she was doing a

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good job and most people thought she should be reappointed. It is

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strongly rumoured her successor will be a high-ranking Tory backer. Why

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hasn't David Laws said this himself, have you spoken to him? I have, and

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I know he is not very pleased about it but he will want to speak to

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Michael Gove himself when he gets to see him on Monday. The question you

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have to take on board is that David Laws is the schools minister,

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effectively the one who has engagement with Ofsted, and he is

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seeing it being undermined by the Secretary of State. There is a

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question that if Michael Gove is so pleased with Sally Morgan why is he

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replacing her, and who will he be replacing her with, and on what

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basis? Maybe parliament should have a confirmation hearing so that we

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can be assured that whoever is put in charge is there because they are

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good at it. Why has he licensed his surrogates to save this rather than

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saying it himself? He didn't, he knew I was on the programme this

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morning so I am giving you the answers as best I can. David is

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perfectly capable of speaking for himself. He hasn't so far. You asked

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me to come on this programme and David was anxious for me to know he

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wasn't happy about it, and I can certainly tell you that. I can also

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give you my own opinion which is that Ofsted is not the Department

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for Education, it is an independent body. The question you have to ask

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is will Michael Gove but someone in charge of Ofsted who will have a

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political agenda? If so, that is not what Ofsted should be used for.

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Let's move on to your own position. You are 69, white male,

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middle-class, what is your answer to the party with diversity problems? I

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don't think that is what they voted on. They felt I had a wealth of

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experience that would be vulnerable to the party from the period now

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until the election, not least because the central issues that will

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concern voters are the economy, and I have a track record of promoting

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the party's economic policy over many years. But you are not even

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standing at the next election. No, but we need to get to the next

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election and my colleagues have confidence that I can do a useful

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job for the party in that situation. We have developed and delivered

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policies that I have helped to shape and I want to persuade people to

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understand the Liberal Democrats have made a fundamental difference

:19:06.:19:08.

to the economic recovery. But you know what has been happening with

:19:09.:19:13.

the Liberal Democrats and their problems with women. Wasn't this a

:19:14.:19:17.

chance to select a woman in a major part? You only have seven female MPs

:19:18.:19:24.

out of 57, not a single Lib Dem woman in the Parliament. Again, why

:19:25.:19:32.

you rather than making a break and bringing someone in onto major

:19:33.:19:37.

positions? My colleagues have concluded that the role I am best

:19:38.:19:44.

qualified to do it, that is why they voted for me. We do only have seven

:19:45.:19:50.

women and that is an issue we need to address. Two of those women are

:19:51.:20:01.

ministers, one is a government whip. We seem to have lost our line to

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Aberdeen, just as Malcolm Bruce was in full flight defending his

:20:08.:20:12.

position. I'm not sure if we can get the line back, just bear with me for

:20:13.:20:18.

a few seconds to see if we can get it. It looks as if we have lost

:20:19.:20:23.

Malcolm Bruce, I do apologise to Malcolm Bruce and the viewers that

:20:24.:20:27.

we were not able to continue that interview.

:20:28.:20:35.

Fierce winds, torrential rain and a tidal surge have brought more misery

:20:36.:20:38.

to thousands. Official records show that southern England has seen the

:20:39.:20:41.

wettest January since records began in 1767. I remember it well. The

:20:42.:20:44.

Somerset Levels have been hit by weeks of flooding, with little

:20:45.:20:49.

respite from relentless rain. And, the residents of one village on the

:20:50.:20:52.

Levels, Muchelney, has been cut off for almost a month. We sent our Adam

:20:53.:20:59.

out with his wellies and a properly filled out risk assessment form The

:21:00.:21:18.

very wet road to Muchelney. This village of about 100 residents has

:21:19.:21:21.

been cut off for about four weeks, and like the weather vane, it feels

:21:22.:21:29.

a little bit spooky. It came up to here and your front door was there.

:21:30.:21:35.

Anita is just relieved the water stopped here, practically on her

:21:36.:21:39.

doorstep. Now it is the practicalities that are the problem.

:21:40.:21:46.

Driving around for food is quite a hassle. You are foraging. It's not

:21:47.:21:53.

as bad as that but we do have a few bits in the vegetable garden still,

:21:54.:21:57.

and we had some nice apples until the rats ate them but we are not

:21:58.:22:02.

doing too badly on that score. It sounds like the medieval! That's

:22:03.:22:11.

what it feels like. Talking of retro, who knew Somerset still had a

:22:12.:22:19.

Coleman, this is Brian's first delivery since Christmas. Everything

:22:20.:22:25.

has gone old-fashioned. We are now talking to neighbours we might never

:22:26.:22:29.

have seen before or spoken to so we are getting to know more people in

:22:30.:22:35.

the village. She's right, there has been an outbreak of Dunkirk spirit,

:22:36.:22:39.

quite literally. The council and the Fire Brigade have put on this boat

:22:40.:22:46.

service to get people to work and school. The church has become an

:22:47.:22:55.

unofficial flood HQ. This is where people pick up their mail, and this

:22:56.:23:01.

is where the people who run the boat stopped for their tea breaks. It all

:23:02.:23:06.

seems quite jolly, if a bit boring, but it is no fun for the homes and

:23:07.:23:12.

businesses that have been inundated, or for the farmers whose land is

:23:13.:23:18.

underwater, an area the size of Bristol, or for the villages which

:23:19.:23:21.

are less isolated but where the flooding is worse. People like the

:23:22.:23:26.

parish chairman are starting to get angry with how the Government has

:23:27.:23:32.

responded. It was all a bit late. We knew what was going to happen with

:23:33.:23:38.

the amount of rain on the fields and the Government was so slow to

:23:39.:23:42.

react. The county council got the boat going quickly but it was

:23:43.:23:46.

another four weeks nearly before the button was pressed for the major

:23:47.:23:52.

incident. Right on cue, the cavalry arrived in the shape of emergency

:23:53.:23:57.

crews from other parts of the UK. The rumour is that they will bring

:23:58.:24:01.

in a hovercraft but the bad news is that the weather is becoming more

:24:02.:24:06.

grim this weekend. There has been a surge in bookings at the campsite

:24:07.:24:12.

where people have seen the Somerset Levels on holiday and would like to

:24:13.:24:16.

come on holiday, if it ever stops raining. I'm delighted to say we

:24:17.:24:25.

have got the line back to Aberdeen, somebody has put a shilling in the

:24:26.:24:29.

meter. We can go back to Malcolm Bruce. We were talking about the Lib

:24:30.:24:34.

Dem women and your election, I suppose the point some people are

:24:35.:24:40.

making is that your party has as many knights in Parliament as it has

:24:41.:24:48.

women and you are one of them. The good news is that for the five MPs

:24:49.:24:55.

who are standing down, who have had candidates elected in their

:24:56.:25:00.

constituencies so far, all five candidates that have been selected

:25:01.:25:05.

are women. We need to fight hard to get behind those women and get them

:25:06.:25:08.

elected so that we have a much better balanced parliament in the

:25:09.:25:13.

future, but given that we have few women, you really have to pick

:25:14.:25:16.

people appropriate for the job and we have appointed the women as I

:25:17.:25:34.

have said but we need our image to be balanced. How many women

:25:35.:25:41.

candidates will there be come the next election? At the moment, 1 ,

:25:42.:25:48.

five more than we have now, and we haven't finished selection. Where

:25:49.:25:51.

there are men sitting and standing again, that is not likely to change,

:25:52.:25:57.

but where they are standing down we are overwhelmingly choosing women,

:25:58.:26:01.

and in my view good and very able women. What I would want to say to

:26:02.:26:08.

people is that if you want to see the Lib Dems have more women, go to

:26:09.:26:16.

those seats and help us hold them. We are told that only 20% of the 57

:26:17.:26:23.

seats have female candidates and in the unlikely event that you were

:26:24.:26:28.

able to hold onto them all, it still wouldn't be a sea change to have

:26:29.:26:34.

20%. The point is you have to build them up. We are supporting female

:26:35.:26:41.

candidates. These are really good candidates who will make first-class

:26:42.:26:46.

MPs and I certainly believe you will gradually see the Liberal Democrats

:26:47.:26:51.

taking them on. We don't have 3 0 seats that we currently hold like

:26:52.:26:55.

other parties, but what I can tell you is that increasing --

:26:56.:27:02.

increasingly we will have female candidates. One newspaper has said

:27:03.:27:08.

that you will deal with the Chris Rennard fallout quickly and

:27:09.:27:13.

privately, what does that mean? It means I will not be telling you

:27:14.:27:18.

because these things are not helped by comments on the airwaves. I hope

:27:19.:27:22.

it will be possible to have a resolution without people going to

:27:23.:27:26.

court but I don't think it helps anybody for me to comment on any

:27:27.:27:30.

aspect of how this will be done and I'm not prepared to do so. If you

:27:31.:27:36.

are not in full possession of the facts, why did you say you will deal

:27:37.:27:44.

with this privately? I have come into this halfway through, I don't

:27:45.:27:48.

have full possession of the facts, I doubt you do, and we have a process

:27:49.:27:56.

that needs to be followed through. Any comments in public do not help.

:27:57.:28:02.

Isn't it hypocrisy of a high order to hear from a party that is

:28:03.:28:09.

constantly calling for transparency in other institutions but when it

:28:10.:28:14.

comes to your own, you say, I am not going to talk about it. There are

:28:15.:28:18.

all sorts of disputes that happen in the world and often people don't

:28:19.:28:23.

talk about them because talking about them aggravates the

:28:24.:28:27.

situation. I believe you have to deal with them privately and I don't

:28:28.:28:31.

think trial by media in this context is helpful and I don't believe that

:28:32.:28:35.

those who choose to make those comments are making it easier to

:28:36.:28:41.

solve them. There are problems in other walks of life and the Liberal

:28:42.:28:44.

Democrats are not the only ones with these problems. We are trying to

:28:45.:28:49.

change that culture and I think we will do it effectively in our own

:28:50.:28:54.

way. We have a pastoral care officer now and I think that is the right

:28:55.:29:05.

way to do it. Thank you for that. Let's now go back to the story of

:29:06.:29:09.

the flooding in Somerset. We are joined by the leader of the Green

:29:10.:29:17.

party, Natalie Bennett in Millbank. Natalie Bennett, don't the Green

:29:18.:29:22.

party bears some responsibility for these floods? You have sided with

:29:23.:29:30.

the Environment Agency in the decision not to dredge rivers and

:29:31.:29:35.

that is one of the reason why these places have been flooded. Firstly I

:29:36.:29:39.

want to give my sympathy to everyone dealing with these floods. The

:29:40.:29:46.

homeowners, the farmers seeing sodden fields for weeks and weeks.

:29:47.:29:55.

We get that, we all have huge sympathy, particularly because so

:29:56.:29:58.

little seems to be done to help them. What is the answer to my

:29:59.:30:03.

question? I think there is strong evidence that dredging is not the

:30:04.:30:09.

answer. If you think about the flow of the river, where the pinch points

:30:10.:30:15.

are is things like bridges, weirs and towns. If you dredge the river

:30:16.:30:20.

in between those barriers, you just make the water faster to those

:30:21.:30:24.

points. The experts are saying that dredging is not the answer, it may

:30:25.:30:29.

be in particular cases, but you have to look at each river system on its

:30:30.:30:33.

own merits and very often the best way of dealing with this is working

:30:34.:30:37.

out ways to slow the watered down and make sure that people don't

:30:38.:30:40.

suffer unduly while you are doing that. The west of England

:30:41.:30:49.

agricultural Society, which I would venture knows more about the

:30:50.:30:52.

Somerset Levels than either of us, has said that without dredging, this

:30:53.:30:57.

was a disaster waiting to happen. The local drainage boards have been

:30:58.:31:00.

calling for years for dredging to be resumed. The National Farmers' Union

:31:01.:31:06.

has called for it, and the chairman of the West Sussex flood defences

:31:07.:31:10.

has called for more drainage, and he is a drainage engineer by

:31:11.:31:12.

profession. So I don't know where your experts are, but the experts on

:31:13.:31:17.

the ground am not the urban ones in London, seem to think this has not

:31:18.:31:24.

been caused, but made worse by the failure of the Environment Agency to

:31:25.:31:29.

continue to dredge. If you look at the example of the planning and

:31:30.:31:32.

climate change coalition, which is led by the town and country planning

:31:33.:31:37.

Association, who you would not describe as a group of radical

:31:38.:31:40.

greens, these people have said we have to look at how we deal with

:31:41.:31:45.

flooding in the future. But not in Somerset. These are the people

:31:46.:31:48.

currently being flooded, not somebody sitting in a quango office

:31:49.:31:52.

in London. They have asked for this to happen and it hasn't, and they

:31:53.:31:57.

are now flooded in definitely. We have to look at what is happening on

:31:58.:32:02.

a case-by-case basis. If you look at Germany, there are many cases there

:32:03.:32:06.

were, to deal with flooding, many farmers are paid to hold water on

:32:07.:32:10.

their land. Maybe we need to introduce those systems, because we

:32:11.:32:14.

have to protect farmland, but we also have to protect urban areas for

:32:15.:32:20.

safety. We saw a horrible flood in Wales were lines were endangered --

:32:21.:32:28.

where lives were endangered. That is the priority, to protect lives,

:32:29.:32:33.

property and farmland. Lives are endangered at the moment,

:32:34.:32:37.

particularly as this stagnant water turns toxic. And yet we are in a

:32:38.:32:43.

situation, again encouraged by the Greens and the lobbying Environment

:32:44.:32:45.

Agency, it says it does not want to dredge because dredging is

:32:46.:32:48.

expensive, yet it spends millions on a bird sanctuary. That is getting

:32:49.:32:54.

everything totally wrong. The government is getting everything one

:32:55.:32:59.

by cutting on flood defences. It has not cut on a bird sanctuaries. I

:33:00.:33:06.

don't know the details of that. But looking at the broader issue, we

:33:07.:33:14.

have to prepare for climate change. The government has slashed funding

:33:15.:33:17.

to the Environment Agency and has cut back on the number of staff

:33:18.:33:22.

available to deal with it and has removed the requirement on local

:33:23.:33:24.

councils to plan for climate change. These are all gambling the future of

:33:25.:33:31.

our lives and property and the future of our environment. Hasn t

:33:32.:33:34.

the high watermark of greenery now gone well past? You don't come out

:33:35.:33:40.

of the Somerset Levels with any great reputation. The UK government

:33:41.:33:43.

is now going to start fracking as quickly as it can. Brussels is

:33:44.:33:48.

loosening the CO2 obligations for 2030. The President of America is

:33:49.:33:54.

about to give the go-ahead to the keystone pipeline, a totemic issue

:33:55.:33:59.

for American greens, and your party is in a state of civil war in

:34:00.:34:03.

Brighton. It is over, isn't it? Absolutely not. We are seeing large

:34:04.:34:08.

amounts of extreme weather around the world. Any one event is whether,

:34:09.:34:16.

but we are seeing a lot of it and people are recognising that climate

:34:17.:34:19.

change is happening. If we are going to quote international experts, I

:34:20.:34:23.

can quote to you Ban Ki-Moon, the UN Secretary-General, not known as a

:34:24.:34:27.

radical green, and he said after the IPCC report came out that the heat

:34:28.:34:32.

is on and we must act. If you go to Christine Lagarde, head of the

:34:33.:34:34.

International Monetary Fund, again not a radical green, she was asked

:34:35.:34:38.

what kept her awake at night, and she said, we are not doing enough

:34:39.:34:43.

about climate change. So actually, people around the world are looking

:34:44.:34:46.

at what is happening around them are both people on the ground and people

:34:47.:34:50.

in high positions are saying we have to act on climate change. And in the

:34:51.:34:55.

case of Britain, that should absolutely not mean fracking. Sorry

:34:56.:35:01.

to interrupt, but I have evidence that you are planning a little

:35:02.:35:05.

career change. Don't go away. This is what happens when you let Nigel

:35:06.:35:09.

Farage present the weather. One thing leads to another and low and

:35:10.:35:13.

behold, the Sunday Politics now has a new traffic and travel reporter.

:35:14.:35:18.

Let's go back to Green Party leader, Natalie Bennett. Thanks, Andrew It

:35:19.:35:24.

is easy out that, so let's start with our airports. I am pleased to

:35:25.:35:29.

say that Heathrow's third runway, Boris Island and all short-haul

:35:30.:35:35.

flights are, just like our arguments, well grounded. We suggest

:35:36.:35:40.

making or alternative arrangements, like a re-nationalised rail

:35:41.:35:47.

network, although it would be a glaring omission if we did not admit

:35:48.:35:51.

that that plan is currently being delayed by Labour Party foot

:35:52.:35:54.

dragging. Speaking of trains, we are hearing that high-speed two may well

:35:55.:36:00.

be derailing, or at least getting bogged down in political fog. One

:36:01.:36:05.

viewer, Ed Balls, has texted in to say he is completely lost. Thanks

:36:06.:36:12.

for the update, Ed. You are not alone among political commuters

:36:13.:36:16.

Meanwhile, dumped UKIP manifestoes are causing major tailbacks across

:36:17.:36:21.

the South, apparently stretching all the way to Brussels. This does make

:36:22.:36:27.

driving road tricky, but UKIP's MEPs can, of course, just hop on their

:36:28.:36:37.

gravy train. The tree had a roundabout is blocked after reports

:36:38.:36:41.

of a political earthquake. It seems that a green unwound his beard to

:36:42.:36:46.

block a dodgy gas extractor. A motorist who turned out to be the

:36:47.:36:49.

environment minister object into the delay and was told to frack off as

:36:50.:36:55.

furious badgers demanded that he stopped moving the goalposts.

:36:56.:37:02.

Unregulated traffic in the city of London continues unchecked.

:37:03.:37:07.

Pedestrians should try to block bankers with sacks of loot rushing

:37:08.:37:11.

for the payments. But do beware the Lib Dem Exodus that is clogging up

:37:12.:37:18.

the motorways. Although they are in a jam, or is it a fudge, we are

:37:19.:37:24.

happy to make way for them, as, like all refugees, we say they are

:37:25.:37:28.

welcome here in muesli green. That is the travel. Back to you, Andrew.

:37:29.:37:35.

Natalie, I think you make my point. You are now preparing a new career

:37:36.:37:41.

in traffic and travel. Well, I do believe in lifelong education and

:37:42.:37:44.

that was an example of it. We know you have had a tough time today to

:37:45.:37:49.

get to our studio. Thank you for the effort.

:37:50.:37:56.

You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20

:37:57.:37:58.

minutes, we will have Hello and welcome to the part of the

:37:59.:37:59.

changing the face Hello and welcome to the part of the

:38:00.:38:15.

programme just for us here in the East. I'm Etholle George.

:38:16.:38:21.

Coming up: Setting their budgets. The huge savings our local

:38:22.:38:23.

authorities need to make, which could change how our councils work

:38:24.:38:30.

completely. It is a massive contribution. It is 40% of our

:38:31.:38:35.

budget. And we put Labour in the spotlight

:38:36.:38:39.

as problems surface over party democracy in Luton. In parts of the

:38:40.:38:45.

local party local democracy has stopped working.

:38:46.:38:49.

Let's begin by meeting our guests for this week, Andrea Leadsom, the

:38:50.:38:52.

Conservative MP for South Northamptonshire and Bob Blizzard,

:38:53.:38:55.

the former Labour MP and now the party's parliamentary candidate, for

:38:56.:38:57.

Waveney. I wanted to start with the flooding.

:38:58.:39:04.

After another wet week there's no sign of flood warnings receding any

:39:05.:39:08.

time soon. This week council leaders went to

:39:09.:39:11.

London to lobby the Floods Minister for more money to help cover the

:39:12.:39:15.

cost of the clear up operation. Several councils in Norfolk and

:39:16.:39:18.

Suffolk say they are seriously out of pocket. This is money that we

:39:19.:39:25.

have not budgeted for. We have financial restraints. We would

:39:26.:39:30.

welcome any funding the Government is able to give us. Local Government

:39:31.:39:37.

minister said an extra ?6.7 million is available at councils will have

:39:38.:39:44.

to bid for it. Is there enough money to cover the

:39:45.:39:49.

cost of the damage? David Cameron is always going on about his economic

:39:50.:39:53.

plan. Part of that plan has been to cut the budget for flood defence in

:39:54.:39:57.

our region every single year he has been in office. Andrea Leadsom, in

:39:58.:40:05.

Northamptonshire the flood defences have held up so far, but it is a

:40:06.:40:11.

densely populated area. You benefit more from funding. We have had

:40:12.:40:18.

enormous problems over recent years. The huge issue is the amount of

:40:19.:40:25.

planning requests for holding on the flood plains. Northamptonshire has

:40:26.:40:32.

awful problems with flooding. There was a death in Northampton in the

:40:33.:40:38.

late 1980s. We have got a number of houses that regularly flood that are

:40:39.:40:43.

quite recently built. Planning and making sure that you do not build on

:40:44.:40:50.

flood plains is vital. Now, at this time of year our councils have to

:40:51.:40:53.

set their budgets. Since 2010 council funding has been plunging.

:40:54.:40:56.

They've lost 40 per cent of their Government grants.

:40:57.:41:39.

?1.2 billion worth of savings needs to be made over the next five

:41:40.:41:43.

years. So what will that mean for the

:41:44.:41:47.

services they provide ` for our schools, our libraries, our roads?

:41:48.:41:49.

Local Government is transforming, through outsourcing, sharing

:41:50.:41:52.

backroom staff and money making schemes. Cambridgeshire is going

:41:53.:41:55.

into property development, Peterborough is pinning hopes on

:41:56.:41:58.

solar farms and as Deborah McGurran found out,.Northamptonshire is going

:41:59.:42:00.

into partnership with utility companies. It is really

:42:01.:42:13.

challenging. We want to play our part in balancing the national

:42:14.:42:22.

budget. We have got to save this year another ?34 million. That is

:42:23.:42:30.

part of ?147 million we had to see over the next four years. A dozen

:42:31.:42:36.

top of the ?177 million that we have already saved. # wrote that is on

:42:37.:42:45.

top of the 177 million pounds. We are looking with this gas at the

:42:46.:42:53.

smart meter broke. `` smart meter approach. If somebody always gets up

:42:54.:43:02.

at the same time such as the kettle on and it goes on day after day and

:43:03.:43:06.

then suddenly does not go on at the same time we can now that. We can

:43:07.:43:16.

send people to make sure it is OK. How do you see the balance between

:43:17.:43:21.

Vermont funding and local funding in the future? I do not think we will

:43:22.:43:32.

see a shift. It would not be likely that central Government having got

:43:33.:43:38.

its grip on strategic decisions would want to relax that grip. The

:43:39.:43:45.

shift is already showing between central funding and local funding.

:43:46.:43:54.

Local funding through the local council tax for the last three years

:43:55.:43:57.

we have had as usual base. This year there will be a slight increase. It

:43:58.:44:07.

will not be in our base budget for future years. We need that security

:44:08.:44:14.

to provide the additional services. You are not in agreement with Mr

:44:15.:44:21.

pickles? We are. We do not know what he is going to do. He is threatening

:44:22.:44:35.

us with the lowering the 2% ceiling. I think he has done a good job. You

:44:36.:44:42.

are happy to put up with him for the time being. He is very welcome to

:44:43.:44:57.

come to Northamptonshire. Well, we met up with Mr Pickles in

:44:58.:45:01.

Great Yarmouth and asked him whether councils can cope with the planned

:45:02.:45:07.

savings in the East. People have said that from the beginning and

:45:08.:45:12.

they have been proved wrong time and again. He had made the savings.

:45:13.:45:21.

Balances have increased by slightly over ?2 billion. My view is that

:45:22.:45:32.

what councils have got to do now is sheer services, officers. They

:45:33.:45:45.

should cut down on fraud. There is still plenty of opportunities for

:45:46.:45:49.

them to improve the service without going back to the council tax there.

:45:50.:46:01.

But they are free to do so. Hilary Benn is joining us from

:46:02.:46:06.

Leeds. You said that front line services

:46:07.:46:09.

would be hit by these cuts in funding but they haven't. Councils

:46:10.:46:14.

have protected them. You were wrong. Councils have worked hard to protect

:46:15.:46:18.

front line services. I pay tribute to what they have done very

:46:19.:46:27.

different circumstances. The way that Government is cutting funding

:46:28.:46:29.

to local authorities is profoundly unfair. The 25 most deprived local

:46:30.:46:37.

authorities in England are facing a reduction in their spending power

:46:38.:46:41.

ten times greater than the 25 lease deprived. If your databases like

:46:42.:46:47.

great Yarmouth and Peterborough they are facing reductions in funding

:46:48.:46:51.

that are greater than other councils. There are some in the

:46:52.:46:56.

country that are having in pieces. David Cameron's own council is

:46:57.:47:00.

getting a rise in funding. That cannot be fair. Councils have been

:47:01.:47:08.

losing staff where they can by voluntary means. Trying to reduce

:47:09.:47:13.

back office costs. At the pressure is rising. There is a growing

:47:14.:47:18.

elderly population. These cats will continue. It will be harder in the

:47:19.:47:24.

year to come to protect front line services.

:47:25.:47:28.

Would Labour continue to tighten the finances or loosen them and give

:47:29.:47:36.

more money back to councils? We will stick with the spending plans that

:47:37.:47:40.

we inherit if we win the election in 2015. But the one pledge I made is

:47:41.:47:45.

that I will look at the formula because the money is being allocated

:47:46.:47:52.

in an unfair way at the moment. We need a fairer distribution of

:47:53.:47:59.

resources. We have got to address this funding crisis that local

:48:00.:48:10.

authorities base. Would you loosen the grip? We would. We would bring

:48:11.:48:28.

together the people dealing with an issue. That produces results. The

:48:29.:48:36.

work programme is not successful in finding employment. We need a

:48:37.:48:42.

fundamental change both because of the funding crisis and because I

:48:43.:48:50.

want local communities and local authorities to do more things for

:48:51.:48:53.

themselves in the months and years ahead. What do you say to the comics

:48:54.:49:11.

that it is unfair? `` to the statement that it is unfair. What

:49:12.:49:22.

councils have done is get creative. They get different levels of the

:49:23.:49:24.

funding so they have to get creative in different ways. In the past there

:49:25.:49:33.

has been enormous amounts of money sunk into those councils that have

:49:34.:49:40.

been Labour run councils. If there have been changes in the funding it

:49:41.:49:43.

is to make it fairer, not to make it unfair. The fact that there may have

:49:44.:49:49.

been greater cats suffered in certain areas has been to make it

:49:50.:49:53.

fairer for everybody. I would dispute the basis of his point.

:49:54.:50:03.

Earlier we heard it said that this was an opportunity for titles. Some

:50:04.:50:13.

councils are still wasting money. One council is spending 40 million

:50:14.:50:17.

on new offices and 5 million on a footbridge that the public do not

:50:18.:50:22.

want. But my main concern is the impact on social services

:50:23.:50:25.

departments, in particular care of the elderly. Older people are having

:50:26.:50:32.

to go more and more to Accident and Emergency at the General Hospital

:50:33.:50:34.

because they are not getting the care in the community. When they are

:50:35.:50:37.

in the hospital but are having to stay longer in the expensive

:50:38.:50:42.

hospital bed because there is nobody to look after them in the community.

:50:43.:50:46.

That is having an impact on the entire NHS. That is part of David

:50:47.:50:56.

Cameron's economic plan failure. What about outsourcing? We have

:50:57.:51:06.

heard of contracts going wrong. In South Northants district council

:51:07.:51:11.

they are shaving leadership with another council. `` shaving

:51:12.:51:17.

leadership. They are reaching out to other councils to share overheads.

:51:18.:51:24.

When you are pushed to do more with less it is amazing how successful

:51:25.:51:31.

you can be. The Mayor of Liverpool was saying that in Liverpool their

:51:32.:51:36.

municipal golf courses were costing them half ?1 million per year in

:51:37.:51:41.

subsidy. Now that they are in the private sector they are making a

:51:42.:51:46.

profit of ?200,000 per year. Is this the end of local Government as we

:51:47.:51:50.

know it? Local Government seems to be doing less and less. I can

:51:51.:51:57.

understand that you always try and get best value and in some cases

:51:58.:52:01.

save money. That there is a problem to do with responsibility. Sometimes

:52:02.:52:07.

you complain at the council says it is the thing to do with them, it is

:52:08.:52:11.

the people who are contracted. It is harder to get something fixed. How

:52:12.:52:17.

can councils really shape their communities and take them forward if

:52:18.:52:21.

all they are is minimalist providers of services? That is a classic

:52:22.:52:28.

statist approach. Why did councils have two read their communities?

:52:29.:52:44.

Communities lead their communities. We've spent the last few weeks

:52:45.:52:47.

talking about problems within some of the Conservative associations in

:52:48.:52:50.

our region. Now we've learnt that there are serious concerns about the

:52:51.:52:53.

Labour party in Luton South. It follows a number of complaints that

:52:54.:52:57.

a small group of people are signing up dozens of new members with a view

:52:58.:53:00.

to influencing the outcome of internal elections. It's called

:53:01.:53:03.

membership packing. There have been claims of bullying, a councillor has

:53:04.:53:06.

resigned and the local MP has told us that in parts of his constituency

:53:07.:53:09.

democracy no longer exists. Here's Andrew Sinclair.

:53:10.:53:12.

Ed Miliband in Luton just a couple of months ago. This is the town that

:53:13.:53:16.

has kept the Labour flame alive in the Eastern region. An example of

:53:17.:53:19.

good party organisation to inspire others. But behind the smiles

:53:20.:53:22.

there's resentment and a lot of infighting. In parts of my local

:53:23.:53:30.

party local democracy has stopped working.

:53:31.:53:33.

Here in Luton south 340 new people have joined the party since the last

:53:34.:53:37.

election but are they all legitimate members? I find it irregular that an

:53:38.:53:44.

entire household would become Labour supporters.

:53:45.:54:04.

Yaqub Hanif, a Luton councillor, is one of several people who's told us

:54:05.:54:07.

that membership packing is widespread. Do they even know that

:54:08.:54:16.

they be long to the Labour Party? In some parts of my constituency the

:54:17.:54:24.

person who gets selected is not the best person, it is whoever has

:54:25.:54:29.

signed in members. We've seen internal party documents

:54:30.:54:32.

that show that in four of the seven wards in Luton south membership has

:54:33.:54:36.

increased by an average of 119 per cent over the last three years. But

:54:37.:54:39.

in Farley and Caddington ward it's up by 179 per cent, in Biscott ward

:54:40.:54:44.

by 314 per cent while in Dallow it's gone up by 400 per cent.

:54:45.:54:47.

We've also seen a letter from the party chairman which notes that here

:54:48.:54:51.

in Biscott wards 70 per cent of new members were recruited by the same

:54:52.:55:03.

two people. Nobody has done anything to deal with the issue. The issue

:55:04.:55:13.

has been flagged up many times. Recently it has become more apparent

:55:14.:55:20.

how this is working against long term decent young men and women who

:55:21.:55:29.

want to be candidate and fight on behalf of the Labour Party.

:55:30.:55:37.

Last week a long standing councillor Robin Harris resigned accusing his

:55:38.:55:39.

colleagues of using underhand tactics and bullying. He didn't want

:55:40.:55:43.

to be interviewed but he told us he believed the process for choosing

:55:44.:55:46.

candidates was being manipulated. None of the people who're allegedly

:55:47.:55:49.

involved in membership packing returned our calls ` but they've

:55:50.:55:52.

told friends that many of those complaining have failed to be

:55:53.:55:56.

reselected and are just bad losers. But there is deep frustration among

:55:57.:55:59.

many at the party's inability to deal with the problem. Despite the

:56:00.:56:07.

efforts of a good constituency team and good people trying to challenge

:56:08.:56:11.

this practice we have found ourselves in a position where the

:56:12.:56:14.

rules do not allow us to deal with it as effectively as we might want

:56:15.:56:27.

to. There is no formal investigation underway. But I understand that

:56:28.:56:36.

officials in the regional party are closely watching Luton South. They

:56:37.:56:40.

have adjusted the rules about who can vote in elections and I am told

:56:41.:56:43.

they will take further action if they think it is necessary. If they

:56:44.:56:49.

were real and remembers talking to the public, knocking on people 's

:56:50.:56:56.

doors, engaging in political debate and driving forward the values of

:56:57.:57:02.

the Labour Party, if that was happening, which does not, they

:57:03.:57:08.

would not be a problem. The problem exists because people are not

:57:09.:57:17.

joining for the right reasons. This isn't a scandal on the scale of

:57:18.:57:20.

Falkirk. It's an internal party matter that at the moment doesn't

:57:21.:57:23.

affect people outside the Labour party. But it's an issue which many

:57:24.:57:27.

in the party want to see sorted out very soon.

:57:28.:57:29.

Do the rules needs to be tightened up? We have got robust rules. I do

:57:30.:57:36.

not see what more you can do. I do not know the details. This is the

:57:37.:57:42.

first to have heard of anything like this? Yes. What I want to say is

:57:43.:57:51.

that in all parties, when you have a hotly contested selection, rival

:57:52.:57:56.

candidates will try and get their supporters along to a meeting to

:57:57.:58:01.

vote for them. It has happened for years. The people who lose,

:58:02.:58:04.

obviously they do not like losing, and they often complain about things

:58:05.:58:08.

being and democratic. That is part of the hurly`burly of all attacks.

:58:09.:58:18.

Is it the hurly`burly of politics? I am inclined to agree with Bob

:58:19.:58:22.

Blizzard. People if they are trying to win an election will win over

:58:23.:58:27.

people to their side. There is a line between bat and actually trying

:58:28.:58:35.

to fix the votes which transgressors the law as well as internal party

:58:36.:58:40.

rules. We need to be constantly the joint. Are the allegations

:58:41.:58:47.

damaging? It is not a good story. Able do not like parties that are

:58:48.:58:54.

arguing amongst themselves. I would say keep your eye on the big

:58:55.:58:58.

picture. It is important to get the best candidate. They get down to

:58:59.:59:04.

factionalism that is not good. This week we've heard that it's not

:59:05.:59:08.

simply us with empty pockets these days but even the Queen is feeling

:59:09.:59:11.

the pinch. Here's our weekly round up, all in 60 seconds. Peterborough

:59:12.:59:18.

was named this week as the UK's fastest growing city with another

:59:19.:59:21.

27,000 people over the last ten years needing homes.

:59:22.:59:26.

But it was the Queen's homes causing concern to the Public Accounts

:59:27.:59:29.

Committee, who think Her Majesty's palaces are in need of repair. The

:59:30.:59:38.

wiring in the Buckingham Palace has not been renewed since 1949.

:59:39.:59:42.

While it was the energy supply on the mind of Essex MP Brooks Newmark,

:59:43.:59:46.

who told the House of Commons that the planning controls on solar farms

:59:47.:59:49.

aren't strict enough. Andrea Leadsom won backing for her

:59:50.:59:51.

manifesto supporting the bond between baby and carer, which has

:59:52.:59:59.

profound lifelong consequences. Did you know that 36% of all serious

:00:00.:00:03.

case reviews involve a baby under the age of one?

:00:04.:00:08.

But Robert Halfon was jeered for talking up Harlow's artistic

:00:09.:00:15.

pedigree. Harlow is the cultural capital of east of England.

:00:16.:00:27.

I grew up in Hull. I am a great supporter of the arts. I would not

:00:28.:00:33.

agree that he alone was quite the capital. Did you get a promise to

:00:34.:00:44.

back the campaign? The Minister said Government policy is changing as a

:00:45.:00:48.

result of the work that I and my colleagues have been doing. We want

:00:49.:00:54.

to focus on giving people a better birth experience.

:00:55.:00:57.

That is all for now. You can keep in birth experience.

:00:58.:01:05.

Not a complete denial! Hopefully a Conservative mayor again.

:01:06.:01:11.

Not a good week for David Cameron on the tricky European front last week.

:01:12.:01:19.

President Hollande said he was not interested in major treaty reform

:01:20.:01:24.

for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron hopes to hold his in-out referendum.

:01:25.:01:28.

And the private member's bill to put that referendum on the statute bill

:01:29.:01:33.

was killed by Labour and Lib Dem peers in the Lords. James Wharton

:01:34.:01:36.

was the Tory MP behind the bill and he joins me now. What happens now?

:01:37.:01:45.

It is out of my hands what happens now, because Labour and the Liberal

:01:46.:01:48.

Democrats conspired in the Lords to kill off my bill. One of the options

:01:49.:01:52.

is for another private member to bring a bill forward when they have

:01:53.:01:56.

the next private member's bill at, and we can try again. The prime

:01:57.:01:59.

minister has indicated that he will support that. But whatever happens,

:02:00.:02:05.

it will be in the Conservative manifesto at the next election. Do

:02:06.:02:12.

you accept that cost this is Tory policy and not government policy

:02:13.:02:14.

that the government policy elite macro cannot bring forward a bill?

:02:15.:02:20.

That is the problem. The Liberal Democrats, despite having promised a

:02:21.:02:24.

referendum in their manifesto at the last election, now will not allow

:02:25.:02:26.

government time for a bill to enshrine that in law. That was why I

:02:27.:02:31.

brought it forward as a private member's bill. David Cameron and the

:02:32.:02:35.

Conservative Party through everything behind that. To many

:02:36.:02:39.

people's surprise, we got it through all the House of Commons stages

:02:40.:02:43.

Sadly, to their discredit, Labour and Liberal Democrat peers, doing

:02:44.:02:46.

the bidding of their masters in the Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do

:02:47.:02:52.

you accept that it is Conservative policy, but not government policy,

:02:53.:02:56.

that you could not use the Parliament act to get this through

:02:57.:03:00.

the Lords? That is not the case The Parliament act is clear that if a

:03:01.:03:05.

public bill passes through the House of Commons twice in one

:03:06.:03:07.

Parliamentary period, there is a certain amount of time that has to

:03:08.:03:12.

be between both bills being presented. There are some procedural

:03:13.:03:16.

steps to be overcome, but there is no legal reason why the Parliament

:03:17.:03:21.

act could not come into effect. I was talking about you not having a

:03:22.:03:25.

majority in this case. That remains to be seen. We saw previously that

:03:26.:03:28.

Labour and the Liberal Democrats sent enough people to frustrate its

:03:29.:03:33.

progress to make it as difficult as possible, but not huge numbers to

:03:34.:03:38.

vote against it. On a Friday, huge numbers of MPs do not attend

:03:39.:03:43.

normally. Getting that number might prove difficult. The Parliament act,

:03:44.:03:49.

which is a bit of an atomic bomb in constitutional terms, if that was

:03:50.:03:53.

used, they would turn up to vote against you. Is it not the case that

:03:54.:03:59.

after the countryside Alliance tried to involve the courts in the hunting

:04:00.:04:04.

ban that it was made clear that the Parliament act was not to be used

:04:05.:04:10.

for constitutional issues? I don't think we know how many would turn up

:04:11.:04:13.

and we don't know how they would vote. One of the things that has

:04:14.:04:17.

been revealed as I have gone through the process of getting this bill to

:04:18.:04:20.

get a referendum through the Commons is that there are big splits in the

:04:21.:04:25.

Labour Party. One of the reasons we did not see them turning up in large

:04:26.:04:29.

numbers to stop this bill from happening was that Ed Miliband knew

:04:30.:04:32.

that if he tried to lead his own MPs through the lobbies to block a

:04:33.:04:36.

bill, the only purpose of which is to let Britain decides to give

:04:37.:04:41.

people a say on membership of the union, a lot of his MPs may not have

:04:42.:04:45.

followed him. It is all fantasy politics anyway. The French

:04:46.:04:50.

president has made clear that he has no interest in treaty change this

:04:51.:04:53.

side of 2017. He would need a referendum as well . And he needs

:04:54.:05:00.

that like a hole and had. Merkel is not keen, as she is in coalition

:05:01.:05:05.

with the social Democrats. Without the French or the Germans, it will

:05:06.:05:10.

not happen, end of story. The policy is that we will try to negotiate on

:05:11.:05:16.

getting a better deal. I hear what you are saying, but I don't

:05:17.:05:21.

recognise it as reality. We have a strong bargaining position. But

:05:22.:05:23.

whatever the result of that negotiation, it will be put in an

:05:24.:05:28.

in-out vote to the Britain people. It is time people were allowed to

:05:29.:05:32.

decide. It has been over a generation since we last had a say.

:05:33.:05:36.

David Cameron has committed to delivering that referendum. The

:05:37.:05:39.

Conservative Party will have it in our next manifesto for the election.

:05:40.:05:43.

Whatever happens to my bill or any other of the bill that comes

:05:44.:05:48.

forward. If people want a referendum, the only party that can

:05:49.:05:51.

deliver that in British politics is the Conservatives. Let me bring the

:05:52.:05:58.

panel in. Nick, where is this going? It is clear to me and anyone who

:05:59.:06:02.

follows European politics that there is no appetite for major treaty

:06:03.:06:06.

change in the short run, particularly for the kind of major

:06:07.:06:10.

changes that Vista Cameron says he is going to get, and yet the Tories

:06:11.:06:14.

are talking about Europe again when they should be talking about the

:06:15.:06:18.

economy. And Francois Hollande is looking at 2017, the year we are

:06:19.:06:23.

meant to have this referendum. There will be a French presidential

:06:24.:06:26.

election going on, and Nicolas Sarkozy will be back in play by

:06:27.:06:30.

then. But James has an interesting point, which is that it is down to

:06:31.:06:36.

Angela Merkel. She would be more receptive to David Cameron's ideas

:06:37.:06:41.

of reform than people assume. She has looked over the edge at a Europe

:06:42.:06:46.

without the UK and said, that is not acceptable, and I am willing to pay

:06:47.:06:50.

a price, not any price, but a price to keep the UK in the European

:06:51.:06:56.

Union. And the French, because the UK and France are the only serious

:06:57.:06:59.

military powers in Europe, will eventually come to that position. So

:07:00.:07:02.

there is more support for David Cameron than people assume. The

:07:03.:07:08.

French are also not a strong position in terms of the euro and

:07:09.:07:17.

French economy. The Foreign Office seem a bit more optimistic about

:07:18.:07:27.

it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd once told me, we are winning the

:07:28.:07:31.

arguments on the single currency. Of course anything from the Foreign

:07:32.:07:33.

Office comes with a health warning, but if David Cameron had won a

:07:34.:07:38.

majority and was determined to renegotiate, he is in a strong

:07:39.:07:43.

position with Merkel. There is a possibility that the French could

:07:44.:07:47.

eventually be talked around. So it is not entirely bleak on that front

:07:48.:07:54.

for Cameron. When do the Tory party managers say, look, stop banging on

:07:55.:07:57.

about Europe again? The economy is going away. We still have an

:07:58.:08:03.

electoral mountain to climb. Let's just talk about that and not be

:08:04.:08:07.

divided. They should have done that some time ago. It is already too

:08:08.:08:13.

late. The Tories need a seven point lead in the polls to get image are

:08:14.:08:19.

tea. The way things are, that would require a huge change from where we

:08:20.:08:23.

are now . It is very unlikely to happen. So all this is happening in

:08:24.:08:28.

some bizarre imaginary space with wonderful rainbows and sunshine But

:08:29.:08:34.

we can detect the beginnings of a shift in the last couple of weeks.

:08:35.:08:42.

If you talk to Tory backbenchers, Douglas Carswell is now saying in

:08:43.:08:47.

public that it is time to stop the fighting. If they are to get even

:08:48.:08:52.

close to winning the election, they can't do it if they are all against

:08:53.:09:00.

each other. I don't think it is an imaginary space. It is likely that

:09:01.:09:04.

David Cameron will have the largest party in the election. If it is a

:09:05.:09:08.

hung parliament and it is the Liberal Democrats and the

:09:09.:09:09.

Conservative Party, David Cameron will save to Nick Clegg we gave you

:09:10.:09:15.

an AV referendum, I am having this referendum. And it will be difficult

:09:16.:09:20.

for Nick to say no. Let me go back to Mr Wharton. You are going to get

:09:21.:09:25.

a referendum in the manifesto. Other than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it.

:09:26.:09:30.

So why don't you just banked that and get behind the leadership

:09:31.:09:33.

Institute causing endless problems and coming across as a Europe

:09:34.:09:38.

accessed, divided party? I am absolutely behind the leadership.

:09:39.:09:43.

David Cameron announced the policy I am trying to bring forward in this

:09:44.:09:47.

bill. It is in line with the speech he gave this time last year. But

:09:48.:09:55.

getting that commitment into law will help to kick-start the

:09:56.:10:00.

negotiation process and mean everyone will know where we stand.

:10:01.:10:05.

But whatever happens, the Conservatives are committed to

:10:06.:10:08.

delivering a referendum. And to address the point that we talk about

:10:09.:10:12.

Europe too much, that is not the case. We have a good message on the

:10:13.:10:17.

economy, on tackling immigration and reforming welfare. There is more to

:10:18.:10:22.

do, but this is also an important part of policy. But at a time when

:10:23.:10:27.

the economic news seems to be turning in your direction, you are

:10:28.:10:32.

talking about the European referendum. Your backbench

:10:33.:10:37.

colleagues are trying to change the Immigration Bill every which way.

:10:38.:10:43.

Dominic Rather is putting in an amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has

:10:44.:10:48.

been on this programme, putting in amendments that are clearly illegal.

:10:49.:10:52.

How is that helpful? The fact is that we are in a coalition, so there

:10:53.:10:55.

are areas of policy where Conservatives might want to go

:10:56.:10:58.

further and we are not able to do that. In other areas, we are

:10:59.:11:05.

delivering good reforms. But this is not a matter of going further. The

:11:06.:11:12.

mill 's amendment was clearly a contravention of the Treaty of Rome.

:11:13.:11:15.

That is where you get the headlines from. Some of your colleagues have a

:11:16.:11:19.

death wish? Would they rather have a Miliband government if the choice is

:11:20.:11:25.

an impure Cameron one instead? I don't think anyone in their right

:11:26.:11:29.

mind would rather have a Miliband government. Then why are they

:11:30.:11:36.

behaving that way? We have had some disagreements into the leak and

:11:37.:11:40.

debate within the party, but it was talked about on the panel just now.

:11:41.:11:44.

The Conservative Party is behind David Cameron and focused on winning

:11:45.:11:48.

the next election. Europe is one part of that. We have policies in a

:11:49.:11:52.

range of areas, but we are getting back on the right track. Thank you

:11:53.:12:00.

for being patient with us. Is this ghost story going to go

:12:01.:12:05.

somewhere? Mr Laws is talking through surrogates at the moment,

:12:06.:12:08.

but there is a strategy by the Lib Dems make these differential points

:12:09.:12:17.

now. I think it is fantastic coalition sports and entertaining,

:12:18.:12:22.

but in terms of out there, it has almost no traction whatsoever. I

:12:23.:12:25.

don't think any voters know who Baroness Morgan is and it sounds

:12:26.:12:29.

like one but politicians shouting at another bunch of politicians about

:12:30.:12:32.

their ability to give each other jobs. There is a larger point about

:12:33.:12:38.

the way Michael Gove runs his government. He is notoriously a very

:12:39.:12:42.

polite man surrounded by Rottweiler is, his advisers. He has made

:12:43.:12:46.

enemies of a lot of people in the media, and some of that will come

:12:47.:12:50.

back on him in the next 18 months. We shall see if Mr Laws himself

:12:51.:12:54.

sticks his head above the parapet. That is it for this week. The Daily

:12:55.:12:59.

Politics is on throughout the week at midday on BBC Two, except on

:13:00.:13:03.

Wednesdays, when we are on at 11:30am. I will be back next week at

:13:04.:13:09.

the same time. Remember, if it is Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:10.:13:15.

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