02/03/2014 Sunday Politics East


02/03/2014

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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Fears that Ukraine could face invasion escalate this morning as

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Russian forces take control of Crimea. President Obama and his

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European allies tell President Putin to back off. It doesn't sound like

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he's listening. Shadow Education Secretary Tristram

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Hunt has started spelling out Labour's plans for schools. So

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what's the verdict - full marks or must try harder? He joins us for the

:01:01.:01:05.

Sunday Interview. And all the big political parties

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are desperate to broaden their appeal. We'll look at some unusual

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and people deal with benefit changes. And tightening household

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finances. And with me, as always, three

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journalists who'd make a clean sweep if they were handing out Oscars for

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political punditry in LA tonight. But just like poor old Leonardo

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DiCaprio they've never won so much as a Blue Peter badge! Yes, it's

:01:42.:01:46.

Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. Instead of acceptance

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speeches they'll be tweeting faster than the tears roll down Gwyneth

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Paltrow's face. Yes, that's as luvvie as we get on this show.

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Events have been moving quickly in Ukraine this weekend. The interim

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government in Kiev has put the Ukrainian military on full combat

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alert after Russia's parliament rubber-stamped the deployment of

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Russian troops anywhere in Ukraine. Russian troops seem already to be in

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control of the mainly Russian troops seem already to be in

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where Russia has a massive naval base. President Obama told President

:02:16.:02:19.

Putin that Russia has flouted international law by sending in

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Russian troops but the Kremlin is taking no notice. This is now

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turning into the worst stand-off between Russia and the West since

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the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008, though nobody

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expects any kind of military response from the West. Foreign

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Secretary William Hague is on his way to Kiev this morning to show his

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support for the new government, though how long it will survive is

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another matter. We can speak to our correspondent David Stern, he's in

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Kiev. As things look from Kiev, can we

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take it they've lost Crimea, it is now in all essence under Russian

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control? Yes, well for the moment, Crimea is under Russian control

:03:09.:03:12.

Russian troops in unmarked uniforms have moved throughout the peninsula

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taking up various positions, also at the Ismis which links Ukraine into

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Crimea. They've surrounded Ukrainon troops there. Three units have been

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captured according to a top officials. We can say at the moment

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Russia controls the peninsula. It should also be said, also they have

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the support of the ethnic Russian population. The ethnic Russians make

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up the majority of the population. They are also not entirely in

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control because there are other groups, namely the Tatar as and the

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ethnic Ukrainian speakers who are at least at the moment tacitly

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resisting. We'll see what they'll start to do in the coming days.

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David, I'm putting up some pictures showing Russian troops digging in on

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the border between Crimea and Ukraine. I get the sense that is

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just for show. There is, I would assume, no possibility that the

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Ukrainians could attempt to retake Crimea by military force? It seems

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that the Ukrainians are weighing their options right now. Their

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options are very limited. Any head-to-head conflict with Russia

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would probably work against the Ukrainians. They seem to be taking

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more of a long-term gain. They are waiting for the figs's first move.

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They are trying not to create any excuse that the Russians can stage

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an even larger incursion into Crimea or elsewhere, for that matter. They

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also seem to be trying to get international support. It should be

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said, this is a new Government. It has only been installed this week.

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They are trying to gain their footing. This is a major crisis

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They have to count on the loyalty of the army they might have some

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resistance from solders from the eastern part of the country who are

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Russian speaking. They probably could count on Ukrainian speakers

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and people from the centre and west of the country as well as regular

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Ukrainians. A lot of people are ready to fight to defend Ukrainian

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Terre Tory. Where does the Kremlin go next? They have Crimea to all

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intents and purposes. There's a weak Government in Kiev. Do they move to

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the eastern side of Ukraine which is largely Russian speaking and there's

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already been some unrest there? That's the big question, that's what

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everybody's really asking now. Where does this go from here? We've had

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some unrest in the eastern part of the country. There have been

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demonstrations and clashes. More ominously, there have been noises

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from the Kremlin they might actually move into eastern Ukraine. Putin in

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his conversation with Barack Obama said they might protect their

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interests there. It should be said, if they do expand, in fact, they've

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also said they are dead against the new Government seeing it as

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illegitimate and fascist. It does contain risks. They will have to

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deal with international reactions. America said there will be a deep

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reaction to this and it will affect Russia's relations with Ukraine and

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the international community. They have to deal with the reaction in

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Ukraine. This may unite Ukrainians behind this new interim Government.

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Once Russia moves in, they will be seen as an invading force. It plays

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on historical feelings of Russia being an imperial force.

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Joining me is MP Mark Field who sits on the security Security and

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Intelligence Committee in the House of Commons. What should the western

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response be to these events? I can understand why William Hague is

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going to Kiev tomorrow to stand side by side whizz whoever's in charge.

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They need to CEOP sit numbers and also President Putin. The truth is

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we are all co significant fatries to the Budapest Memorandum of almost 20

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years ago which was designed to maintain the integrity of the

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Ukraine and Crimea. There needs to be a discussion along those lines.

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The difficulty is President Putin has watched events in recent months,

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in relation to Syria, it is palpable President Obama's focus of attention

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ask the other side of the Pacific rather than the Atlantic. The vote

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in the House of Commons, I was very much against the idea of military

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action or providing weapons to the free Syrian army. My worry is,

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events proved this, the majority of the other options toed as sad are

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rather worse. It is clear now we are in a constitutional mess in this

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country. We cannot even contemplate military action without a

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parliamentary vote that moves against quick reaction that is

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required from the executive or, I suspect, there will be very little

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appetite for any military action from the West over in Ukraine. We

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are corn tours under the agreement of less than 20 years ago. We may be

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but we've guaranteed an agreement which it is clear we haven't the

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power to enforce. You wrote this morning, Britain is a diminished

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voice. Clams Iley navigating the Syrian conflict we relick wished

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voice. Clams Iley navigating the decisions to the whims of

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parliamentary approval. That may or may not be but the Kremlin's not

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watching how we voted on the Syrian issue? In relation to Syria, it was

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where is the western resolve here. The truth ask Putin's position is

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considerably less strong. In diplomatic terms. He had a victory

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in Syria in relation to chemical weapons and in relation to the

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West's relationship with Iran. Putin is a vital inter locking figure In

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demographic and economic terms, Russia's in very deep trouble. The

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oil price started to fall to any degree, oil and gas price, given the

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importance of mineral wealth and exports for the Russian economy

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Putin would be in a lot of trouble. It requires an engagement from the

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EU and the EU are intending to look at their internal economic problems

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and will be smarting from the failure within a matter of hours of

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the deal they tried to broker only nine days' ago.

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You say if Mr Putin decides to increase the stakes and moves into

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the east, takes over the whole place, our Government, you say, will

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find itself with another colossal international headache. Some people

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watching this will be thinking, what's it got to do with us? It s a

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long way away from Britain. We haven't a dog in this fight? We have

:10:47.:10:52.

in this regard for the longer term here. I think if there were to be

:10:53.:10:58.

some military action in Ukraine the sense of Russia taking over, it

:10:59.:11:02.

could have a major impact on the global economy in very quick order.

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You should not deny that. There will be move to have sanctions against

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Russia. The escalation of that will be difficult. The other fact is

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looking at our internal affairs and reform, partners, the Baltic states,

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Finland, Poland, the Czech Republic, they will be looking at a resurgent

:11:26.:11:29.

Russia now and think they'll need to hold as tightly as possible to the

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EU institutions and the power of Germany at the centre of that. This

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whole appetite for the reforms politically and economically will be

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closed very much within a matter of a short period of time. It has

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longer term implications. Mark Field, thank you.

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We're joined now by BBC News night's Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban. Is

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there any prospect of a western military response? Clearly at the

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moment, it is nil. The boat has sailed with the Crimean. It has been

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per performed by Russian forces It is now a matter of coordinating a

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plate cal line. European foreign ministers tomorrow. To say what will

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our future limits be? Where could we possibly draw red lines? To try to

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think a couple of steps down this, what happens if Russia interrupts

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energy supplies to EU member states ornate owe countries? These are the

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important steps they have to think about. It is quite clear we are in a

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different world here now. Also, Ukraine is facing a urgent foreign

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exchange crisis. Within literally a few weeks they could run out of

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money. All of these are rushing towards decision makers very fast.

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There is an interim and I suggestion unstable Government in Kiev. Crimea

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semi-to be under Russian control. There are clashes between the

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reformers and Russian nationals in the east of the country. What does

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Mr Putin do next? He has lots of options, of course. He has this

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carte blanch carte blanch from his Parliament to go in to the rest of

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Ukraine if he wants to. His military deployment suggests the one bite at

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a time, just Crimea to start with. See what response comes from the

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Ukrainian Government. Of course See what response comes from the

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far, there hasn't been a coherent response. The really worrying thing

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about recent months, not just recent days, are the indications that the

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future of Ukraine as a unitary state is now in doubt. Look at it from the

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other side of the equation. The President when faced with

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demonstrations, many extremists he was unable to deal with that. Now we

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have the other side, if you like, the Russian speakers, the other side

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of the fight, Russian nationalists showing they can get away with

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unilateral action more or less with impunity. The Ukrainian chiefs have

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been sacked. I think there are considerable questions now as to

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whether Ukraine is falling apart and, if that happens, we're into a

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Yugoslav-type situation which will continue posing very serious

:14:36.:14:40.

questions for the EU and NATO for months or years to come. So, Janan,

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Ukraine is over? Where the west to concede to the Russian in Crimea, it

:14:49.:14:53.

would perversely be a net loss for Russia. You'd assume the rest of

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Ukraine would become an un unambiguously a member of the the

:15:02.:15:07.

EU, maybe NATO. On top of that a Russian dream of Eurasion dream

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they will look at Putin's behaviour and is a, no, thanks, we'll head

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towards the EU. It is a short-term victory for Putin which backfires on

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his broader goals in Well, many people said if he grabs Crimea, he

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loses Ukraine, which is your point. We have seen violent demonstrations

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in the big eastern cities in Ukraine yesterday. People taking control of

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certain buildings. The risk is there of spreading beyond Crimea. I think

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the lack of any unified or visible response from Ukrainian armed

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forces... They allowed Russian troops to walk into the bases in

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Crimea. They have supposedly gone on red alert but they have done

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absolutely nothing. We don't see them deploying from barracks. There

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are serious questions about whether they would just fall apart. Putin is

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not going to let them split away. I would have thought he would like the

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entire Ukraine to come into the Russian ambit. Barack Obama is

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saying this will not stand. He has a 90 minute conversation with Vladimir

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Putin and what is his response? I am suspending my cooperation in the

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run-up to the Sochi Summit. What is the EU doing? Nothing. There is

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nothing they can do and Putin knows there are a series of lines that he

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is able to cross and get away with it. Why should Berlin, London,

:16:47.:16:54.

Washington be surprised by the strength of Vladimir Putin's

:16:55.:16:58.

reaction? It was never going to let Ukraine just fall into the arms of

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the EU. That is the interesting point. And who does he listen to?

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Paddy Ashdown was saying sent Angela Merkel because she is the only

:17:08.:17:11.

person who can talk to him and I find that response worrying. We need

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to speak with a united voice but nobody knows what we should be

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saying. Military intervention is out for the West so we go to economic

:17:20.:17:23.

sanctions. Doesn't Vladimir Putin just say, oh, you want sanctions? I

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have turned off the gas tap. Yes, it is move and countermove, and it is

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difficult to predict where it will end up. In all these meetings that

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are being held, they do think a step or two ahead and try and set out

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clear lines. Thank you for coming in this morning.

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Labour has been struggling since 2010 to decide exactly how to take

:18:15.:18:16.

education secretary Michael Gove, one of the boldest reformers of the

:18:17.:18:19.

coalition and most divisive figures. Ed Miliband appointed TV historian

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Tristram Hunt and many thought Labour had found the man to teach

:18:22.:18:24.

Michael Gove a lesson. But how much do we really know about the party's

:18:25.:18:26.

plans for England's schools? Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are a

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devolved matter. Child has been back to school to find out. A politician

:18:29.:18:31.

once told me, do you know why education secretaries changed

:18:32.:18:33.

schools? Because they can. Michael Gove might dispute the motive but he

:18:34.:18:36.

is changing schools, like this one. The changes he is ringing in our

:18:37.:18:38.

encouraging them to be academies, free from local authorities to

:18:39.:18:40.

control their own budgets, ushering in free schools, focusing on

:18:41.:18:42.

toughening exams and making them the core of the curriculum with less

:18:43.:18:44.

coursework, and offering heads more discretion on tougher discipline.

:18:45.:18:50.

And he is in a hurry to put all this in place. But has

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And he is in a hurry to put all this chance for a Labour Government to

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change it all themselves and do they really want to? Any questions?

:18:58.:19:02.

Visiting a different school, first in line to get a crack at that

:19:03.:19:07.

would-be Labour's third shadow education secretary since 2010,

:19:08.:19:10.

Tristram Hunt. In post, he has not been taken about fine tuning

:19:11.:19:14.

previous direct opposition to free schools and he has also suggested

:19:15.:19:18.

teachers in England would have to be licensed under a Labour Government,

:19:19.:19:22.

allowing the worst to be sacked and offering training and development to

:19:23.:19:26.

others and of course ending coalition plans to allow unqualified

:19:27.:19:30.

teachers into classrooms. Full policy detail is still unmarked

:19:31.:19:40.

work. Your opinion about evolution? What is very clear is that Labour's

:19:41.:19:46.

education policy is still evolving. We are learning that they have some

:19:47.:19:50.

clear water, but we also seem, from the sting at the back, to get the

:19:51.:19:55.

feeling that there is not a great deal of difference from them and the

:19:56.:19:58.

current Government on types of schools and the way education should

:19:59.:20:03.

proceed. -- from listening at the back. So what exactly is different

:20:04.:20:09.

about their policy? What Tristram Hunt's job is to do is to be open

:20:10.:20:14.

and honest about the shared agenda between us and the Tories. There are

:20:15.:20:18.

a lot of areas where there is clear water between us and Tristram Hunt

:20:19.:20:22.

as to turn his back, shared agenda, stop fighting it, and forge our

:20:23.:20:27.

agenda, which I think people will be really interested in. The art of

:20:28.:20:33.

Government, of course, is to balance competing pictures of policy, even

:20:34.:20:38.

inside your own party. It is fair to say that if Labour reflects and

:20:39.:20:42.

draws its own visions of a shared agenda, it might have to square that

:20:43.:20:46.

idea with teaching unions, who are already unhappy with the pace and

:20:47.:20:50.

tone of change that the Government had sketched out. What we sincerely

:20:51.:20:55.

hope is that if Labour were to form the next Government, that they would

:20:56.:20:59.

look at a serious review of accountability measures. That is

:21:00.:21:21.

really what ways on teachers every single day. Actually they would look

:21:22.:21:24.

at restoring the possibility, for example, of local councillors to be

:21:25.:21:26.

able to open schools. That seems eminently sensible. If they are not

:21:27.:21:29.

going to move back from the free schools and academies programme at

:21:30.:21:31.

the very least they need to say that academy chains will be inspected

:21:32.:21:34.

because at the moment they are not. Labour have balls in the air on

:21:35.:21:36.

education and are still throwing around precise policy detail. There

:21:37.:21:39.

are areas that they could grab hold of and seize possession. A focus on

:21:40.:21:41.

the rounding of the people, developing character, the impact of

:21:42.:21:43.

digitalisation on the classroom Also the role and handling of

:21:44.:21:46.

teachers in the system and the interdependence of schools. That is

:21:47.:21:50.

all still to play for. Currently I think the difference between the

:21:51.:21:54.

parties is that the coalition policies, while we do not agree with

:21:55.:21:59.

all of them, are clear and explicit, and Labour's policies are yet to be

:22:00.:22:03.

formulated in a way that everybody can understand clearly. I don't

:22:04.:22:10.

think that Tristram Hunt or Miliband will want to pick unnecessary fights

:22:11.:22:17.

before the election. I think we will have quite a red, pinkish fuzziness

:22:18.:22:23.

around the whole area of policy but after the election there will be

:22:24.:22:29.

grey steel from Tristram Hunt. But if fuzzy policy before the election

:22:30.:22:34.

is the lesson plan, it does rather risk interested voters being left in

:22:35.:22:37.

the dark. Tristram Hunt joins me now for the

:22:38.:22:48.

Sunday interview. Welcome. Thank you. Which of Michael

:22:49.:22:54.

Gove's school reforms would you repeal? We are not interested in

:22:55.:22:58.

throwing a change for the sake of it. When I go round schools,

:22:59.:23:01.

teachers have been through very aggressive changes in the last three

:23:02.:23:05.

years, so when it comes to some of the curriculum reforms we have seen,

:23:06.:23:08.

we are not interested in changing those for the sake of it. Where we

:23:09.:23:12.

are interested in making change is having a focus on technical and

:23:13.:23:17.

vocational education, making sure that the forgotten 15% is properly

:23:18.:23:22.

addressed in our education system. What we saw in your package was an

:23:23.:23:26.

interesting description of how we have seen structural reforms in the

:23:27.:23:29.

names of schools. Academies, free schools, all the rest of it.

:23:30.:23:33.

International evidence is clear that it is the quality of leadership of

:23:34.:23:36.

the headteachers and the quality of teaching in the classroom that

:23:37.:23:40.

transforms the prospects of young people. Instead of tinkering around

:23:41.:23:44.

the names of schools, we focus on teacher quality. Viewers will be

:23:45.:23:48.

shocked to note that this Government approves of unqualified teachers in

:23:49.:24:04.

the classroom. We want to have fully qualified, passionate, motivated

:24:05.:24:06.

teachers in the classroom. It sounds like you might not repeal anything.

:24:07.:24:09.

You might build on it and you might go in a different direction, with

:24:10.:24:11.

more emphasis on technological education but no major repeal of the

:24:12.:24:13.

reforms of Michael Gove? I don't think you want to waste energy on

:24:14.:24:18.

undoing reforms. In certain situations they build on Labour

:24:19.:24:22.

Party policy. We introduced the sponsored academy programmes and we

:24:23.:24:27.

began the Teach First programmes, and we began the London challenge

:24:28.:24:33.

which transformed the educational prospects of children in London We

:24:34.:24:36.

want to roll that out across the country. You have said there will be

:24:37.:24:40.

no more free schools, which Michael Gove introduced, but you will allow

:24:41.:24:45.

parents let academies, which just means free schools by a different

:24:46.:24:53.

name. No, because they will be in certain areas. We want to create new

:24:54.:24:58.

schools with parents. What we have at the moment is a destructive and

:24:59.:25:01.

market-driven approach to education. I was in Stroud on

:25:02.:25:05.

Thursday and plans for a big new school, in an area with surplus

:25:06.:25:10.

places, threatened to destroy the viability of local, rural schools.

:25:11.:25:15.

We want schools to work together in a network of partnership and

:25:16.:25:18.

challenge, rather than this destructive market-driven approach.

:25:19.:25:22.

You say that, but your version of free schools, I think, would only be

:25:23.:25:48.

allowed where there is a shortage of places. That means that where there

:25:49.:25:50.

is an excess of bad schools, parents will have no choice. They still have

:25:51.:25:53.

to send their kids to bad schools. And we have to transform bad schools

:25:54.:25:56.

and that was always the Labour way in Government. At the moment we just

:25:57.:25:59.

have an insertion of new schools. Schools currently underperforming

:26:00.:26:00.

are now underperforming even more. Children only have one chance at

:26:01.:26:02.

education. What about their time in school? Our focus is on the

:26:03.:26:05.

leadership of the headteacher and having quality teachers in the

:26:06.:26:07.

classroom. So they cannot set up new better schools and they have to go

:26:08.:26:10.

to the bad schools. Tony Blair said it should be easier for parents to

:26:11.:26:13.

set up new schools where they are dissatisfied with existing schools.

:26:14.:26:16.

You are not saying that. Even where they are dissatisfied with existing

:26:17.:26:19.

schools, they cannot set up free schools and you are reneging on

:26:20.:26:24.

that. We live in difficult economic circumstances where we have got to

:26:25.:26:29.

focus public finances on the areas of absolute need. We need 250,0 0

:26:30.:26:36.

new school places. 150,000 in London alone. We have to focus on building

:26:37.:26:39.

new schools and where we have to put them. And secondly... Absolutely

:26:40.:26:48.

not. Focusing on those schools. Making sure we turned them around,

:26:49.:26:53.

just as we did in Government. We have had a remarkable degree of

:26:54.:26:56.

waste under the free school programme. If you think of the free

:26:57.:27:00.

school in Derby, the Academy in Bradford, and as we saw in the

:27:01.:27:05.

Telegraph on Friday, the free schools in Suffolk, a great deal of

:27:06.:27:09.

waste of public money on underperforming free schools. That

:27:10.:27:12.

is not the Labour way. We focus on making sure that kids in schools at

:27:13.:27:16.

the moment get the best possible education. Except that in your own

:27:17.:27:22.

backyard, in Stoke, only 34% of secondary school pupils attend a

:27:23.:27:29.

good or outstanding school. 148 out of 150 of the worst performing local

:27:30.:27:34.

authorities and it is Labour-controlled. Still terrible

:27:35.:27:37.

schools and yet you say parents should not have the freedom to start

:27:38.:27:43.

a better school. We have great schools in Stoke-on-Trent as well.

:27:44.:27:46.

We face challenges, just as Wolverhampton does and the Isle of

:27:47.:27:51.

Wight and Lincolnshire. Just like large parts of the country. What is

:27:52.:27:56.

the solution to that? Making sure we share excellence among the existing

:27:57.:28:00.

schools and making sure we have quality leadership in schools. Those

:28:01.:28:03.

schools in Stoke-on-Trent are all academies. It is not a question only

:28:04.:28:08.

of structure but of leadership. It is also a question of going back to

:28:09.:28:11.

the responsibility of parents to make sure their kids are school

:28:12.:28:15.

ready when they get to school. To make sure they are reading to their

:28:16.:28:50.

children in the evening. We can t put it all on teachers. Parents have

:28:51.:28:52.

responsibilities. I understand that but you have told me Labour's policy

:28:53.:28:55.

would not be to set up new schools which parents hope will be better.

:28:56.:28:58.

Parents continue to send their kids to bad schools in areas like Stoke.

:28:59.:29:00.

Labour has had plenty of time to sort out these schools in Stoke and

:29:01.:29:03.

they are still among the worst performing in the country. You are

:29:04.:29:05.

condemning these parents to having to send their kids to bad schools.

:29:06.:29:08.

Where we have seen the sett ing up of Derby, Suffolk, we have seen that

:29:09.:29:11.

is not the simple solution. Is simply setting up a new is not a

:29:12.:29:14.

successful model. What works is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on

:29:15.:29:16.

Friday at a failing comprehensive is not a successful model. What works

:29:17.:29:19.

is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on Friday at a failing

:29:20.:29:21.

comprehensive school and now people are queueing round the block to get

:29:22.:29:22.

into it. You can turn with the right leadership,

:29:23.:29:25.

passionate and motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the

:29:26.:29:29.

learning outcome of their kids. In the last few years of the Labour

:29:30.:29:35.

Government, only four kids from your this Government would set up the new

:29:36.:29:38.

school. In Birmingham, they got in a great headmaster and turned the

:29:39.:29:41.

school around and now people are queueing round the block to get into

:29:42.:29:43.

it. You can turnaround schools with the right leadership, passionate and

:29:44.:29:45.

motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the learning outcome of

:29:46.:29:48.

their kids. In the last few years of a Labour Government, only four kids

:29:49.:29:50.

from your area of and you had plenty of chances to put this right but

:29:51.:29:54.

only four got to the two and you had plenty of chances to put this right

:29:55.:29:57.

but only four got to the two leading universities. Traditionally young

:29:58.:30:03.

people could leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries,

:30:04.:30:07.

the steel industry, the traditionally young people could

:30:08.:30:10.

leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries, the steel

:30:11.:30:16.

industry, the but also to get an apprenticeship at Jaguar Land

:30:17.:30:20.

Rover, JCB, Rolls-Royce. That is why Ed Miliband's focus on the forgotten

:30:21.:30:27.

15%, which we have just not seen from this Government, focusing on

:30:28.:30:30.

technical and vocational pathways, is fundamental to Your headmaster

:30:31.:30:51.

was guiles Slaughter. Was he a good teacher? He He never taught me.

:30:52.:30:59.

Over 90% of teeners in the private sector are qualified. They look for

:31:00.:31:04.

not simply teachers with qualified teacher status. Teachers with MAs.

:31:05.:31:09.

Teachers who are improving them cephalitis. Becoming better

:31:10.:31:11.

educators. cephalitis. Becoming better

:31:12.:31:21.

teaching. You were taught by unqualified teachers. Your parents

:31:22.:31:25.

paid over ?15,000 a year for you being taught by unqualified

:31:26.:31:29.

teachers. Why did you make such a big deal of it? Because we've seen

:31:30.:31:32.

right around the world those education systems which focus on

:31:33.:31:38.

having the most qualified teachers perform the best. It cannot be right

:31:39.:31:44.

that anyone can simply turn up, as at the moment, have schools at

:31:45.:31:50.

veritising for unqualified teachers teaching in the classroom. We want

:31:51.:31:55.

the best qualified teachers with the deepest subject knowledge, for the

:31:56.:32:01.

passion in learning for their kids. It is absurd we are having arguments

:32:02.:32:07.

about this. Simply having a paper qualification doesn't make you a

:32:08.:32:11.

great teacher. Let me take you to Brighton college. It is gone from

:32:12.:32:17.

the 147th to the 18 18th best private school in the land. Fllt the

:32:18.:32:20.

headmaster says: This is the top Sundaytimes school

:32:21.:32:42.

of the year. The school in derby where this Government allowed

:32:43.:32:48.

unqualified teaching assist taints. We had teachers who could barely

:32:49.:32:51.

speak English. That is because if We had teachers who could barely

:32:52.:32:54.

you have unqualified teachers you end up with a dangerous situation.

:32:55.:32:59.

The problem with that school was not unqualified teachers. People were

:33:00.:33:04.

running that school who were unfit to run a school. We have an issue

:33:05.:33:09.

about discipline and behaviour management in some of our schools.

:33:10.:33:13.

Some of the skills teachers gain through qualifications and learning

:33:14.:33:17.

is how to manage classes and get the best out of kids at every stage It

:33:18.:33:21.

doesn't end with a qualified teacher status. That's just the beginning.

:33:22.:33:27.

We want our teachers to have continue it will development. It is

:33:28.:33:32.

not good enough to have your initial teacher trainingaged work through

:33:33.:33:38.

your career for 30 years. You need continual learning. Learning how to

:33:39.:33:43.

deal with digital technology. Refresh your subject knowledge. As

:33:44.:33:45.

deal with digital technology. an historian I help teachers. You've

:33:46.:33:50.

taught as an unqualified teacher. Not in charge of a subject group. I

:33:51.:33:56.

give the odd lecture. I'm-y to go to as many schools as possible. I don't

:33:57.:34:01.

blame you. It is uplifting. Would you sack all unqualified teachers?

:34:02.:34:07.

We'd want them all to gain teacher status. What if they say no? If they

:34:08.:34:14.

are not interested in improving skills and deepening their knowledge

:34:15.:34:20.

they should not be in the classroom. If a free school or academy hired a

:34:21.:34:27.

teach thinking they are a great teacher but unqualified, if they are

:34:28.:34:32.

then forced by you to fire them they will be in breach of the law.

:34:33.:34:37.

They are being urged by us to make sure they have

:34:38.:34:39.

They are being urged by us to make status. We've lots of unqualified

:34:40.:34:43.

teachers as long as they are on the pathway to making sure they are

:34:44.:34:47.

qualified. But if they say they don't want to do this, will you fire

:34:48.:34:52.

them? It is not an unreasonable suggestion is that the teachers in

:34:53.:34:56.

charge of our young people have qualifications to teach and inspire

:34:57.:35:00.

our young people particularly when we face global competition from

:35:01.:35:06.

Shanghai, Korea and so on. The head teacher of Brighton college finds

:35:07.:35:11.

incredibly inspeechational teachers who don't' necessarily have a

:35:12.:35:17.

teaching qualifications. It is a different skill to teach ten young

:35:18.:35:24.

nice boys and girls in Brighton to teaches 20 or 30 quids with

:35:25.:35:28.

challenging circumstances, special educational needs, different

:35:29.:35:33.

ability. Being a teacher at Brighton college is an easy gig in comparison

:35:34.:35:37.

to other schools. Where we want teachers to have a capacity to teach

:35:38.:35:44.

properly. Do you think Tristram could ever lead the Labour Party? I

:35:45.:35:52.

think Ed is a great leader, the reforms yesterday were a real sign

:35:53.:35:56.

for his leadership. And the fact David Owen, the man with a

:35:57.:35:59.

pre-history with our party is back with us. It is great. Even Gideon

:36:00.:36:04.

had to change his name to George. Have you thought of switching to

:36:05.:36:13.

Tommy or Tony? Maybe not Tony! Michael Foot was called Dingle Foot.

:36:14.:36:18.

I love the Labour because it accepts everybody from me to Len McCluskey.

:36:19.:36:23.

We are a big, broad happy family on our way to Government. Thank you

:36:24.:36:27.

very much. You're watching The Sunday Politics.

:36:28.:36:32.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us for Sunday

:36:33.:36:38.

politics Scotland. In over 20 minutes I'll

:36:39.:36:46.

Well come to that part of the programme with us here in the East.

:36:47.:36:55.

Relatives of those scorned hn the First World War for refusing to take

:36:56.:36:58.

up arms commemorate their loved ones. They were fighting for what

:36:59.:37:10.

they believed was right. UKIP's leader addresses the party

:37:11.:37:13.

faithful at its spring confdrence and we speak to are NCP abott the

:37:14.:37:20.

party's fortunes in the East. Guess which politician won `

:37:21.:37:31.

crackerjack pencil decades `go. First let's meet our guests. Keith

:37:32.:37:39.

Simpson, chairman of the World War I commemoration committee. Kelvin

:37:40.:37:51.

Hopkins from Labour. More from them later. I want to start with those

:37:52.:37:56.

shocking events in the North Sea. Two men thought to have been

:37:57.:38:00.

deported jumped off a ferry. A huge rescue effort was launched but is

:38:01.:38:07.

now one has been found. This was a desperate act. If it was thd act of

:38:08.:38:14.

illegal deportees is there `n issue over security? We do not know if it

:38:15.:38:21.

is a desperate act. There are some questions about what really

:38:22.:38:26.

happened. We do not know thd details of what they were expecting to get

:38:27.:38:34.

at the other end. I cannot genuinely believe that somebody is so

:38:35.:38:37.

desperate that they are going to do this kind of thing.

:38:38.:38:42.

Can you believe that somebody could be so desperate to do that? Indeed.

:38:43.:38:49.

I have a large minority comlunity in my constituency and immigration is

:38:50.:38:53.

part of my postbag. I have come across people who are fearftl of

:38:54.:38:57.

being deported, often two countries that are not so liberal as Britain.

:38:58.:39:06.

Is your Government creating an atmosphere around immigration that

:39:07.:39:08.

is perhaps making people take things into their own hands? Kelvin Hopkins

:39:09.:39:13.

is right that there are certain countries you could be deported to.

:39:14.:39:17.

But getting the Harwich Ferry is not taking you to one of them. Hf you

:39:18.:39:21.

were going to some of the more desperate parts of Africa or Asia.

:39:22.:39:32.

Public opinion is on our side. Labour did hugely under esthmate the

:39:33.:39:35.

numbers of people that are going to come here from the EU. Has that in

:39:36.:39:45.

part treated the problem? Yds, I suspect that many of the deportees

:39:46.:39:49.

are not going to the Europe`n Union. They did under estimated massively.

:39:50.:39:54.

I raised it at the time. I still think there is a problem with free

:39:55.:39:58.

movement within the European Union. But the people I am talking about

:39:59.:40:02.

are going to countries that are far less safe than anything in Durope.

:40:03.:40:07.

Immigration has been just one of their talking points at the UKIP

:40:08.:40:12.

spring gathering. It seems the party cannot stop winning seats in this

:40:13.:40:17.

region. It plays a major role in our local Government. A survey last year

:40:18.:40:23.

showed UKIP supports your at 21 , the highest in the country.

:40:24.:40:29.

According to research of thd council by`elections that had taken place

:40:30.:40:33.

since last summer the Tory vote is down by 6.5%, the Lib Dem voters

:40:34.:40:41.

down by 6%, Labour is down by 4 , UKIP is up by 17%. Nevertheless the

:40:42.:40:47.

party has come up for criticism about whether it has any policies.

:40:48.:40:53.

Yes, says the party leader Nigel Farage, despite calling his own 2010

:40:54.:41:00.

manifesto drivel. Now, says the man who wrote it, former UKIP NDP for

:41:01.:41:04.

the East later defected to the Conservatives.

:41:05.:41:10.

These people are not fit for Government. They are not a serious

:41:11.:41:16.

political party. Nigel Farage is not interested in

:41:17.:41:21.

all says. He would rather h`ve a blank aid of paper. They will not be

:41:22.:41:27.

a European manifesto. You fhnd out what they believe in after the

:41:28.:41:31.

election which is no way for a serious was a coal party to act You

:41:32.:41:36.

have to believe in policies to be a proper political party. UKIP have

:41:37.:41:39.

been found wanting. I am joined by a UKIP NEP for the

:41:40.:41:46.

East, Stewart Agnew. You are not fit for Governmdnt. You

:41:47.:41:51.

need policies to be credibld. We are keeping things close to our chest

:41:52.:41:56.

until the campaign for the general election because we do not want our

:41:57.:42:01.

policy is stolen. However where we can have policies on other subject

:42:02.:42:07.

which the EU Government, our agricultural policy is now coming

:42:08.:42:13.

out. I have an influential hn that. I am sure almost people in the East

:42:14.:42:16.

who are showing their support for UKIP would like to know abott your

:42:17.:42:21.

policies. Let us start locally. Council tax. Are you going to freeze

:42:22.:42:27.

council tax? That is the aspiration, but that policy as yet

:42:28.:42:35.

has not come out properly. @s I said at the beginning we are keeping our

:42:36.:42:39.

cards close to our chest. This is not a general election that is

:42:40.:42:43.

coming up. It is a European Parliament election. Our policy on

:42:44.:42:47.

council tax is not relevant to that election.

:42:48.:42:51.

How can people vote for you if they do not know what they are voting

:42:52.:42:56.

for? And council tax is verx close to people 's hearts. What are you

:42:57.:43:02.

going to do about local services? On both of these subjects, these are

:43:03.:43:09.

questions for the general election. We are not launching our general

:43:10.:43:12.

election manifesto 18 months before the election. We are facing a

:43:13.:43:20.

European Parliament election. We have got local elections coling up.

:43:21.:43:26.

Are you not concerned about those? Surely you want this opporttnity to

:43:27.:43:28.

tell everyone what your polhcies are? I have not got our loc`l

:43:29.:43:35.

manifesto in front of me as I speak. But you can see that where we have

:43:36.:43:39.

managed to form a group in the Norfolk County Council that we have

:43:40.:43:46.

managed to break the committee system there. That is something we

:43:47.:43:49.

want to do. We have managed to achieve it. Why do you think you

:43:50.:43:54.

have so much support in this region? The number`1 reason is that

:43:55.:43:58.

we are the of emigration from Eastern Europe. Are you not just a

:43:59.:44:09.

protest vote? People accuse us of being a protest party. But the

:44:10.:44:13.

polling we have done suggests that 60% of those who vote for us for

:44:14.:44:16.

four hours because of the policies that they have read, rather than

:44:17.:44:22.

just as a protest. But you `re not telling us about your poliches. I am

:44:23.:44:27.

not want to talk about the general election Wallasey. We are holding us

:44:28.:44:34.

back. We do not want our policy is stolen. We are very concerndd about

:44:35.:44:39.

that happening. We want to produce a general election manifesto that is

:44:40.:44:45.

short and to the point. We want a chance and the opportunity to

:44:46.:44:47.

discuss those over the next few months. We are not talking `bout

:44:48.:44:53.

that at the moment. Do you think that it is your stance on

:44:54.:44:59.

immigration that is winning support? Yes. There are three or four main

:45:00.:45:06.

platforms. Immigration is now the number one in most people 's minds.

:45:07.:45:11.

That is the number one issud in this country. There is also the cost 53

:45:12.:45:16.

million homes every single day. Then there is the problem of democracy.

:45:17.:45:22.

Our laws are made by people that we do not collect. Then there hs the

:45:23.:45:30.

big worry of the EU energy policy putting up all our electrichty

:45:31.:45:33.

bills. Those are the things that we are fighting the selection on.

:45:34.:45:38.

3.5 million jobs. That is what the Government says is linked to EU

:45:39.:45:43.

membership. That has to be ` good thing. It is total nonsense. I would

:45:44.:45:51.

like to see it more stronglx. It is nonsense. But we were to le`ve the

:45:52.:45:57.

European Union we have 63 mhllion relatively affluent customers goods

:45:58.:46:02.

produced in the European Unhon. We are in the driving seat. We buy far

:46:03.:46:08.

more from them we sell to them. They need our custom. We are not going to

:46:09.:46:13.

see a trade war. This idea of 3 5 million jobs is nonsense.

:46:14.:46:19.

Thank you for joining us. What do you make of that? It was

:46:20.:46:25.

very revealing that Stewart Agnew did not want to produce any form of

:46:26.:46:32.

manifesto. More seriously, what Kelvin Hopkins and I have to take

:46:33.:46:36.

into account that in the last couple of years there has been a rhse in

:46:37.:46:41.

support of UKIP. That is for lots of reasons. It is not only thehr core

:46:42.:46:46.

policy of emigration. I suspect as well it is none of the abovd.

:46:47.:46:51.

Labour, Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, are dissatisfied

:46:52.:46:58.

Your share of the voters down by 6.5% Mr Mac are you worried? Yes.

:46:59.:47:07.

UKIP is a party to the right of the Conservative Party, so miles away

:47:08.:47:10.

from Labour. They are very anti`socialist. They are on the

:47:11.:47:18.

free`market right wing of politics. Labour voters have no interdst in

:47:19.:47:23.

voting for a party of that kind In Britain we have a big Labour

:47:24.:47:30.

majority. `` in Luton. Figures show there was an increase

:47:31.:47:34.

in net immigration of one third UKIP says you cannot control your

:47:35.:47:38.

borders and less you are out of the EU.

:47:39.:47:48.

Government has reduced emigration. A lot of the EU emigration has been

:47:49.:47:53.

because of the accession of Romania and Bulgaria. The irony is that

:47:54.:47:58.

because the UK economy has started to pick up freedom of movemdnt of

:47:59.:48:04.

workers, they are here. Stewart Agnew is a farmer. It does seem to

:48:05.:48:10.

me that the NFU are saying that they are happy to employ lots of foreign

:48:11.:48:13.

workers. He cannot have it both ways. Kelvin Hopkins, you are a

:48:14.:48:22.

Eurosceptic. He said Ed Milhband was unwise to call people barking for

:48:23.:48:25.

wanting to leave the EU. Yot are on the side of UKIP. I am a socialist

:48:26.:48:35.

of the left. 40 years ago L`bour was the Eurosceptic party. It w`s Edward

:48:36.:48:38.

Heath got us into the Europdan Union. I want a democratic socialist

:48:39.:48:44.

Europe, not one built on frde`market capitalist principles.

:48:45.:48:50.

This year marks the centenary of the outbreak of the First World War But

:48:51.:48:55.

it was not only those who fought and died who suffered. We found the

:48:56.:48:57.

grandchildren of a prominent Quaker who spent over two years behind bars

:48:58.:49:04.

for his beliefs and was branded a coward.

:49:05.:49:13.

I call to arms in 1914. Thotsands of men enlisted in a wave of p`triotic

:49:14.:49:16.

fervour, but not all voluntdered to fight.

:49:17.:49:22.

A respected member of the Qtakers was a pacifist. They joined the

:49:23.:49:28.

friends and owns unit is a ledical orderly serving in France in 19 6.

:49:29.:49:35.

He served the country in th`t sense. At the end of the war he was given a

:49:36.:49:42.

couple of medals. His familx have been researching the story `nd

:49:43.:49:45.

discovered from letters to the grandmother that he was worried

:49:46.:49:48.

about the military nature of the adults unit. `` of the ambulance

:49:49.:50:03.

unit. Had I known how things are I would not have joined. He w`s one of

:50:04.:50:08.

16,000 men who refuse to fight wins conscription was introduced in 916.

:50:09.:50:14.

He had left the ambulance unit. He was tried by local tribunal and

:50:15.:50:18.

jailed three times as a conscientious objector. He spent two

:50:19.:50:24.

and a half years in prison. My grandmother always said that the

:50:25.:50:27.

years he spent in prison aided his early death. I know that shd was

:50:28.:50:34.

sent a white feather, as a lot of people were. Some prison sentences

:50:35.:50:43.

for conscientious objectors were harsh. They were given work to do

:50:44.:50:51.

which had no point or value. At that time the idea that you were not a

:50:52.:50:55.

real man and miss you fought for your country was a hard one to stand

:50:56.:51:01.

against. The moral stand must have won him

:51:02.:51:06.

some support. After the war he was elected Labour councillors here at

:51:07.:51:10.

City Hall. In 1946 he becamd Sheriff of Norwich. His whole life was spent

:51:11.:51:17.

in endeavours to help other people. That shows the character of the man.

:51:18.:51:22.

His purpose was never selfish. He was always doing what he cotld for

:51:23.:51:25.

others. He died in 1949 following a stroke,

:51:26.:51:33.

aged just 60. I can remember him as a very gentle kindly man. Mx

:51:34.:51:38.

grandmother was much more stern My grandfather did lots of things with

:51:39.:51:43.

us when we were there. I am very proud of him. I was like to be able

:51:44.:51:50.

to see that I am the ground. Of that gentleman. He was a man who had

:51:51.:51:57.

principles. I admire him for sticking by his principles. Anybody

:51:58.:52:01.

who went through the war, whether on the front, or as conscientious

:52:02.:52:07.

objectors, on both sides of the story they both suffered. Pdople

:52:08.:52:15.

like him and the 16,000 othdrs at conscientious objectors werd not

:52:16.:52:22.

coward 's. What they did to a great deal of courage.

:52:23.:52:32.

Kelvin Hopkins, should therd be more recognition of the sacrificd made by

:52:33.:52:38.

conscientious objectors? I think they are recognised. People

:52:39.:52:43.

understand. War is a pond to millions of us. It is an appalling

:52:44.:52:51.

thing to do. Some awards had to be fought. I understand those who feel

:52:52.:52:54.

that killing other human behngs is absolutely immoral and something

:52:55.:52:58.

that should not do. I understand and I sympathise. The fact that there

:52:59.:53:04.

are people like pacifists, like Quakers, who see all killing is

:53:05.:53:08.

wrong, is something to make us all think.

:53:09.:53:12.

Should conscientious objectors the commemorative? They will be. The

:53:13.:53:18.

Government has said that under a programme of commemoration let 000

:53:19.:53:23.

flowers bloom. There will bd all kinds of organisations. We will look

:53:24.:53:28.

at different aspects. Those who were conscientious objectors werd part of

:53:29.:53:32.

our national story. They re`lly were a tiny minority. The right to

:53:33.:53:48.

conscientious objection is still not guaranteed in Europe is it? Each

:53:49.:53:56.

country is different. In Brhtain most of our military servicd has

:53:57.:53:59.

been voluntarily. We did not have conscription until 1916. It is the

:54:00.:54:06.

credit of Parliament that the amended the military servicd act to

:54:07.:54:09.

enable their to be conscientious objection. Most countries now within

:54:10.:54:15.

NATO have a very strong and easy way of opting out of what you and I

:54:16.:54:20.

would call National service or conscription. Kelvin Hopkins, is

:54:21.:54:26.

there a danger of celebrating war rather than commemorating? Hndeed.

:54:27.:54:33.

My knowledge of this First World War, I just think of the horror of

:54:34.:54:37.

the trenches. My wife's Rand father died on the Somme. `` the

:54:38.:54:48.

grandfather of my wife. I rdmember as a child many elderly wom`n who

:54:49.:54:50.

were the wives and girlfriends of those who died in the First World

:54:51.:54:54.

War. It was a horror not to be repeated. And yet we still

:54:55.:55:01.

celebrated today. I think wd must remember the people that night and

:55:02.:55:05.

salute them for their bravery and what they went through. `` the

:55:06.:55:13.

people that died. What do you see as the key `im of

:55:14.:55:20.

this year's emanations? The key aim is to remember why we went to war,

:55:21.:55:25.

in particular in terms of young people, thinking about how original

:55:26.:55:30.

conflict can burst into a world war. Even as we are speaking there is a

:55:31.:55:35.

crisis in the Ukraine. Secondly to commemorate the changes that took

:55:36.:55:43.

place. It was world. Thirdlx to commemorate the participation of all

:55:44.:55:46.

our ancestors. Not just the men who became soldiers or those who were

:55:47.:55:50.

conscientious and sectors, but hundreds of thousands of wolen were

:55:51.:55:55.

directly affected. It is not a celebration. It is a commemoration.

:55:56.:55:58.

I hope that young people will look at the evidence and come to their

:55:59.:56:03.

own conclusions. What do you hope young people will

:56:04.:56:08.

take from it? I hope that they will see that human beings must not do

:56:09.:56:11.

these things in future. We lust work for a world that is peaceful. That

:56:12.:56:17.

means equality, social justhce, so that context do not arise.

:56:18.:56:23.

It is time for our 62nd round up of the week.

:56:24.:56:26.

There are no crackerjack pencils for guessing who made an appear`nce on

:56:27.:56:31.

the TV show many years before he got used to playing the game of politics

:56:32.:56:33.

in the House of Commons. Ipswich MP Ben Gummer proposed in

:56:34.:56:47.

the House this week that National Insurance should be renamed the

:56:48.:56:53.

Earnings Tax. It walks like a tax. We should call it a tax.

:56:54.:56:59.

Peter Bone 's says that he `nd his wife are innocent of allegations of

:57:00.:57:02.

fraud relating to the care of his mother`in`law.

:57:03.:57:08.

Staff working for the policd in Sapphic protested over proposals to

:57:09.:57:11.

close the control room as plans to merge operations. Both Suffolk and

:57:12.:57:20.

Norfolk's finances will be dire The Dean committed the Speaker on

:57:21.:57:25.

his new post. I congratulatd you on your new role.

:57:26.:57:35.

John Bercow might have hoped that this footage of him losing on

:57:36.:57:39.

crackerjack had remained N the archive.

:57:40.:57:47.

Your prize is a crackerjack pencils. I wondered if he still has that

:57:48.:57:53.

pencil. Have either of you got archive footage waiting in the

:57:54.:57:58.

wings? I dread to think. I do have. I did the last ever after d`rk on

:57:59.:58:05.

Channel four with Oliver Redd. You can watch it on YouTube. I have

:58:06.:58:15.

never forgotten it. Let us go back to that police story.

:58:16.:58:18.

Norfolk and Suffolk to mergd control rooms. Both need to save money. What

:58:19.:58:27.

is your take on it? Provided that operational aspects are not diluted

:58:28.:58:33.

it will make sense. We do that with the district councils. A lot of the

:58:34.:58:38.

back of this stuff is done. I know that there are objections. Somebody

:58:39.:58:41.

said they would be a lack of local knowledge. In Norfolk at thd moment

:58:42.:58:51.

if you see you are falling from a certain place, there is somdwhere

:58:52.:58:58.

else that sounds very simil`r. The Police and Crime Commissioner 's

:58:59.:59:01.

are not in agreement over it. That is interesting. One concern I have

:59:02.:59:08.

is that the jobs are being lost We live in a period of high and

:59:09.:59:13.

implement. I used to work for Unison and now go. I am concerned for them.

:59:14.:59:23.

The most important point is to preserve local is in policing slugs

:59:24.:59:33.

so that we have local contacts. so that we have local contacts.

:59:34.:59:38.

Government to change it. Thank you both for being here. Andrew, back to

:59:39.:59:43.

you. This week grant Shap said he wanted

:59:44.:59:55.

to rebrand the Tories as the workers' party to show it can reach

:59:56.:00:01.

out to blue-collar workers. One Conservative Party MP said they

:00:02.:00:05.

should scrap what he said was their boring old logo. We asked him and

:00:06.:00:14.

two other independent MPs how they'd freshen up their logos.

:00:15.:00:23.

Aspiration's always been our core value. About helping people get on

:00:24.:00:29.

with life. Giving people ladders of opportunity. That's why our symbol

:00:30.:00:34.

must reflect our values of aspiration and why I'm calling for

:00:35.:00:39.

our symbol to be changed from a tree to a ladder which symbolises social

:00:40.:00:46.

mobility and stands up for everything conservatism represents.

:00:47.:00:50.

I like an he will fanned, an animal that never forgets. We're the only

:00:51.:00:56.

party which seems to remember what life was like before the NHS and

:00:57.:01:02.

minimum wage and the global financial crash was caused by too

:01:03.:01:05.

little regulation not too much. We have a leader who can spot the

:01:06.:01:10.

elephant in the room, the lack of women on the Tory frontbench. The

:01:11.:01:17.

republicans in America have had the same idea. Theirs is a suspicious

:01:18.:01:23.

blue. Our would be deepest red. We love our Liberal Democrat bird. Mrs

:01:24.:01:27.

Thatcher called it the dead parrot when we launched it. We won the

:01:28.:01:32.

Eastbourne by-election off the Tories very soon aftered with.

:01:33.:01:37.

Perhaps it feels like we're in a coalition cage but we're escaping

:01:38.:01:43.

that soon. Why does it fly to the right? Most Liberal Democrats would

:01:44.:01:45.

want it to fly to the left. I hope it will soon.

:01:46.:01:55.

Interesting there. Let's stick with the Robert Hall pin one. He was

:01:56.:02:00.

being serious. The others were fun. It is interesting that talking about

:02:01.:02:06.

appealing to the blue collared vote, the upper working class, lower

:02:07.:02:12.

middle class, curiously now neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miliband has great

:02:13.:02:16.

cut through with these people. But in wanting to be the Workers Party,

:02:17.:02:23.

how do you square that with choosing five old Etonians to draw up four

:02:24.:02:29.

next manifesto. Labour said one of the things was cutting inheritance

:02:30.:02:35.

tax, after all their priorities they went to privilege rather than earned

:02:36.:02:39.

income. Rebranding is not enough. The one question the modernisers

:02:40.:02:43.

never asked themselves when they took party ten years ago is the

:02:44.:02:51.

thing we know as the Conservative Party, salvageable as a brand? I'm

:02:52.:02:53.

beginning to think it isn't. If you look at all public opinion research,

:02:54.:03:00.

there are lots of people in this contrary with Conservative views.

:03:01.:03:05.

They won't vote Tory or contemplate the possibility of voting Tory. Can

:03:06.:03:11.

we get over the electoral problems by relaunching as a different

:03:12.:03:17.

pro-business, pro-worker party. That means new name, new logo. It will

:03:18.:03:21.

mean new people as well. If you say you're on the sides of what Thatcher

:03:22.:03:27.

called the strivers, the people themselves want to see you have

:03:28.:03:29.

strivers in the people who run themselves want to see you have

:03:30.:03:33.

party so you know what we've been through, the struggles we've had.

:03:34.:03:38.

How many of the six drawing up the manifesto have had ever a mortgage.

:03:39.:03:44.

The one who's not an old Etonian went to St Paul's. He's a day

:03:45.:03:49.

schoolboy! It is interesting and it was funny you mentioned an elephant.

:03:50.:03:53.

Don't think of an elephant as the title of that book. Calling it the

:03:54.:03:58.

Workers Party draws attention to the Tories biggest electoral weakness.

:03:59.:04:02.

The idea they are a class apart Out of touch. I think it is interesting,

:04:03.:04:08.

they have identified their elections are won or lost by this particular

:04:09.:04:17.

demo graphic of the C 1, and C . Mrs Thatcher got them by the shed

:04:18.:04:22.

load, Tony Blair got them. His failure in 2010 is the reason David

:04:23.:04:27.

Cameron didn't win an overall majority. I'm disappointed with the

:04:28.:04:33.

ladder. You should have a hammer or sickle! The Conservatives have a

:04:34.:04:37.

terrible brand problem. You heard them explaining why they did badly

:04:38.:04:41.

in the Wythenshawe by-election, saying there's quite a large council

:04:42.:04:46.

estate there In 1961, I think the Conservatives won a by-election back

:04:47.:04:51.

then, they were getting through to those sort of voters. There is not a

:04:52.:04:55.

single Conservative councillor in Manchester. They have this terrible

:04:56.:04:59.

problem. You're right for them to pick up on the five Etonians writing

:05:00.:05:05.

their manifesto. David Cameron sir rounding himself with his own. He

:05:06.:05:13.

doesn't have to do that. I seas things like isn't Robert Halpen

:05:14.:05:22.

great. He decides and has his own. He has some more slightly common

:05:23.:05:27.

people from St Paul's! One of the ways the Conservatives hoped to

:05:28.:05:30.

broaden their appeal is the tougher line on immigration. We learned net

:05:31.:05:37.

immigration is rising substantially. Back up over 200,000. Nigel Farage

:05:38.:05:44.

of UKIP wrapped up the rhetoric In scores of our cities and market

:05:45.:05:48.

towns, this country, in a short space of time, has become N'Zonzi

:05:49.:05:59.

rkable whether it is -- unrecognisable. Whether it is the

:06:00.:06:03.

impact on local schools and hospitals. In many parts of England

:06:04.:06:07.

you don't hospitals. In many parts of England

:06:08.:06:12.

is not the kind of the community we want to leave to our children and

:06:13.:06:17.

grandchildren. Helen, maybe people, I assume, will love the sentiments.

:06:18.:06:24.

Others will say, this is getting... It is going down a dangerous road.

:06:25.:06:31.

Nigel Farage's wife is German and he shares a flat with Godfully Bloom,

:06:32.:06:38.

nobody knows what he's saying half of the time. You can handle the

:06:39.:06:45.

letters from Yorkshire. Alex Salmond does not make his case on Scotland

:06:46.:06:55.

for the Scottish. Let's put aside whether the policy's right or wrong.

:06:56.:07:02.

How bad, by the Tories own lights, is the fact the net figure for

:07:03.:07:09.

immigration went up 60,000? It looks really bad. If I was a Tory

:07:10.:07:14.

strategist, I'd be philosophical about it. Immigration, even if they

:07:15.:07:19.

were meeting the target, I don't think the public would believe it.

:07:20.:07:24.

It is like crime a few years ago, the crime rates had been declining

:07:25.:07:28.

for the best part of 20 years but the fear of crime remains high.

:07:29.:07:35.

There's such a degree of cynicism that regardless of your

:07:36.:07:38.

administrative record in Government, the public will remain hostile to

:07:39.:07:44.

you. This is where Nigel Farage can be potent. He said it is not about

:07:45.:07:48.

numbers. It is about community. It is about people seeing their

:07:49.:07:55.

communities change. And in the Sunday Telegraph, it was said this

:07:56.:08:00.

isn't a dog whistle, a it is a meaty bone for a bull terrier. The problem

:08:01.:08:04.

for the Government on these figures is we know why the net migration

:08:05.:08:08.

figures are not looking good. They got down the non-EU figures but the

:08:09.:08:13.

EU figures are going up. From Italy and Spain as their economies tanked,

:08:14.:08:20.

people came here. If he hadn't made such a big deal of the numbers, the

:08:21.:08:24.

Tories, I mean, you could present this as a huge success story. If you

:08:25.:08:27.

believe immigration was good for the country. You would say it doesn t

:08:28.:08:31.

matter what Labour says, the best and the brightest young people from

:08:32.:08:35.

all over Europe are voting with their feet to come to Britain. But

:08:36.:08:40.

you never hear that case being made and certainly not by Labour. They

:08:41.:08:44.

acknowledge although immigration is best in the abstract for the

:08:45.:08:46.

economy, people don't feel it best in the abstract for the

:08:47.:08:50.

their daily lives. There's a huge vacuum for the case where

:08:51.:08:54.

immigration should be in our public life. I remember a time when the

:08:55.:09:00.

economy was in such decline there was a rush to the door in the

:09:01.:09:05.

sixties and seventies. Now we are claiming our economy's doing better

:09:06.:09:08.

than any of the other major economies bar Germany, people want

:09:09.:09:14.

to join in our success. London was a declining city until the

:09:15.:09:18.

mid-eighties. Theresa May cannot be honest. She was proposing a cap on

:09:19.:09:26.

immigration. Not going to happen. Today she is saying maybe people

:09:27.:09:29.

from poorer member states cannot come in until their economies grow.

:09:30.:09:35.

That's future accession states. That's Turkey in ten years' time It

:09:36.:09:39.

is causing divisions with the coalition. She's bashing Vince

:09:40.:09:44.

Cable. You often see Liberal Democrats bashing the Tories. You

:09:45.:09:49.

don't often see a Tory minister bash Vince Cable. She does on the

:09:50.:09:53.

immigration figures. He thought they were good news. Last week, Vince

:09:54.:09:57.

responded to the news by saying it was a policy he was happy for the

:09:58.:10:02.

gift to flunk. The problem was going for a cap. There are six moving

:10:03.:10:07.

parts. UK citizens leaving, coming back. EU citizens leaving and coming

:10:08.:10:14.

back and then third party nationals. And students coming to study. Of

:10:15.:10:21.

course. You only have control over the EU citizens. Have you to clamp

:10:22.:10:30.

down on ace strayian, Chinese or American graduates. They should have

:10:31.:10:35.

gone for the Australian points system. I don't have a pure cap on

:10:36.:10:43.

numbers just background etc. Tim Farran said in the European election

:10:44.:10:49.

either vogue Liberal Democrat or UKIP. He turned that to his

:10:50.:10:53.

advantage. It is hopeful but he s come up with a way to spin this

:10:54.:10:59.

Labour has his special conference. Was it or was it not an event? Not

:11:00.:11:09.

sure it was the biggest moment in the party since 1918. But things

:11:10.:11:14.

fell apart in the special conference in 1981. 2004 got another special

:11:15.:11:20.

conference. Who's on board? David Owen who founded the gang of four.

:11:21.:11:24.

He's not joined but he's given them money. He's not going to sit with

:11:25.:11:28.

them in the Lord's. He's given money. They lost the gang of four.

:11:29.:11:35.

Back comes David Owen. Not historic? Why would he want it to be more

:11:36.:11:41.

significant than it was. There's a tendency to see him taking the fight

:11:42.:11:45.

to his party. Why would he want that? The fact it has not pleased

:11:46.:11:51.

Grant Shapps is not a test to see whether this has worked. It has been

:11:52.:12:03.

described as an historic moment and incremental of what John did. The

:12:04.:12:09.

trade union block voters disappeared a long time ago. They still have 50%

:12:10.:12:17.

of the vote. But 2,000 of union members voting for this guy has

:12:18.:12:22.

gone. It is a reform from 20 years ago. Welcome but not historic. Ed

:12:23.:12:27.

Miliband's stored up trouble. Len McCluskey wants a million new homes

:12:28.:12:33.

and answered to the benefit caps is not reconcilable with the deficit

:12:34.:12:37.

reduction strategy. In five years' time if there is a Labour Government

:12:38.:12:40.

it becomes very difficult. We should keep an eye on it? Always. Labour

:12:41.:12:47.

Party process is never ending. Unlike this programme. That's all

:12:48.:12:53.

from us today. Continuing reports of events in the Ukraine on the BBC

:12:54.:12:57.

News Channel. There's no Daily Politics tomorrow because of cover

:12:58.:13:03.

Arg of the Nelson Mandela memorial service at Westminster Abbey on BBC

:13:04.:13:08.

Two live. We'll be back on the Daily Politics on Tuesday at midday.

:13:09.:13:10.

Two live. We'll be back on the Daily be back here next week with the Work

:13:11.:13:15.

and Pensions Secretary, Ian Smith. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday

:13:16.:13:19.

Politics.

:13:20.:13:37.

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