Browse content similar to 02/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
Fears that Ukraine could face invasion escalate this morning as | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
Russian forces take control of Crimea. President Obama and his | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
European allies tell President Putin to back off. It doesn't sound like | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
he's listening. Shadow Education Secretary Tristram | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
Hunt has started spelling out Labour's plans for schools. So | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
what's the verdict - full marks or must try harder? He joins us for the | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
Sunday Interview. And all the big political parties | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
are desperate to broaden their appeal. We'll look at some unusual | :01:09. | :01:23. | |
and people deal with benefit changes. And tightening household | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
finances. And with me, as always, three | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
journalists who'd make a clean sweep if they were handing out Oscars for | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
political punditry in LA tonight. But just like poor old Leonardo | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
DiCaprio they've never won so much as a Blue Peter badge! Yes, it's | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. Instead of acceptance | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
speeches they'll be tweeting faster than the tears roll down Gwyneth | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
Paltrow's face. Yes, that's as luvvie as we get on this show. | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
Events have been moving quickly in Ukraine this weekend. The interim | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
government in Kiev has put the Ukrainian military on full combat | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
alert after Russia's parliament rubber-stamped the deployment of | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
Russian troops anywhere in Ukraine. Russian troops seem already to be in | :02:11. | :02:11. | |
control of the mainly Russian troops seem already to be in | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
where Russia has a massive naval base. President Obama told President | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
Putin that Russia has flouted international law by sending in | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
Russian troops but the Kremlin is taking no notice. This is now | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
turning into the worst stand-off between Russia and the West since | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008, though nobody | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
expects any kind of military response from the West. Foreign | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
Secretary William Hague is on his way to Kiev this morning to show his | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
support for the new government, though how long it will survive is | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
another matter. We can speak to our correspondent David Stern, he's in | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
Kiev. As things look from Kiev, can we | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
take it they've lost Crimea, it is now in all essence under Russian | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
control? Yes, well for the moment, Crimea is under Russian control | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
Russian troops in unmarked uniforms have moved throughout the peninsula | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
taking up various positions, also at the Ismis which links Ukraine into | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
Crimea. They've surrounded Ukrainon troops there. Three units have been | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
captured according to a top officials. We can say at the moment | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
Russia controls the peninsula. It should also be said, also they have | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
the support of the ethnic Russian population. The ethnic Russians make | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
up the majority of the population. They are also not entirely in | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
control because there are other groups, namely the Tatar as and the | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
ethnic Ukrainian speakers who are at least at the moment tacitly | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
resisting. We'll see what they'll start to do in the coming days. | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
David, I'm putting up some pictures showing Russian troops digging in on | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
the border between Crimea and Ukraine. I get the sense that is | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
just for show. There is, I would assume, no possibility that the | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
Ukrainians could attempt to retake Crimea by military force? It seems | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
that the Ukrainians are weighing their options right now. Their | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
options are very limited. Any head-to-head conflict with Russia | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
would probably work against the Ukrainians. They seem to be taking | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
more of a long-term gain. They are waiting for the figs's first move. | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
They are trying not to create any excuse that the Russians can stage | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
an even larger incursion into Crimea or elsewhere, for that matter. They | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
also seem to be trying to get international support. It should be | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
said, this is a new Government. It has only been installed this week. | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
They are trying to gain their footing. This is a major crisis | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
They have to count on the loyalty of the army they might have some | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
resistance from solders from the eastern part of the country who are | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
Russian speaking. They probably could count on Ukrainian speakers | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
and people from the centre and west of the country as well as regular | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
Ukrainians. A lot of people are ready to fight to defend Ukrainian | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
Terre Tory. Where does the Kremlin go next? They have Crimea to all | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
intents and purposes. There's a weak Government in Kiev. Do they move to | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
the eastern side of Ukraine which is largely Russian speaking and there's | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
already been some unrest there? That's the big question, that's what | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
everybody's really asking now. Where does this go from here? We've had | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
some unrest in the eastern part of the country. There have been | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
demonstrations and clashes. More ominously, there have been noises | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
from the Kremlin they might actually move into eastern Ukraine. Putin in | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
his conversation with Barack Obama said they might protect their | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
interests there. It should be said, if they do expand, in fact, they've | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
also said they are dead against the new Government seeing it as | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
illegitimate and fascist. It does contain risks. They will have to | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
deal with international reactions. America said there will be a deep | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
reaction to this and it will affect Russia's relations with Ukraine and | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
the international community. They have to deal with the reaction in | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
Ukraine. This may unite Ukrainians behind this new interim Government. | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
Once Russia moves in, they will be seen as an invading force. It plays | :06:57. | :07:04. | |
on historical feelings of Russia being an imperial force. | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
Joining me is MP Mark Field who sits on the security Security and | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
Intelligence Committee in the House of Commons. What should the western | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
response be to these events? I can understand why William Hague is | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
going to Kiev tomorrow to stand side by side whizz whoever's in charge. | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
They need to CEOP sit numbers and also President Putin. The truth is | :07:35. | :07:43. | |
we are all co significant fatries to the Budapest Memorandum of almost 20 | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
years ago which was designed to maintain the integrity of the | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
Ukraine and Crimea. There needs to be a discussion along those lines. | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
The difficulty is President Putin has watched events in recent months, | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
in relation to Syria, it is palpable President Obama's focus of attention | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
ask the other side of the Pacific rather than the Atlantic. The vote | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
in the House of Commons, I was very much against the idea of military | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
action or providing weapons to the free Syrian army. My worry is, | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
events proved this, the majority of the other options toed as sad are | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
rather worse. It is clear now we are in a constitutional mess in this | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
country. We cannot even contemplate military action without a | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
parliamentary vote that moves against quick reaction that is | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
required from the executive or, I suspect, there will be very little | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
appetite for any military action from the West over in Ukraine. We | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
are corn tours under the agreement of less than 20 years ago. We may be | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
but we've guaranteed an agreement which it is clear we haven't the | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
power to enforce. You wrote this morning, Britain is a diminished | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
voice. Clams Iley navigating the Syrian conflict we relick wished | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
voice. Clams Iley navigating the decisions to the whims of | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
parliamentary approval. That may or may not be but the Kremlin's not | :09:18. | :09:25. | |
watching how we voted on the Syrian issue? In relation to Syria, it was | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
where is the western resolve here. The truth ask Putin's position is | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
considerably less strong. In diplomatic terms. He had a victory | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
in Syria in relation to chemical weapons and in relation to the | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
West's relationship with Iran. Putin is a vital inter locking figure In | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
demographic and economic terms, Russia's in very deep trouble. The | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
oil price started to fall to any degree, oil and gas price, given the | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
importance of mineral wealth and exports for the Russian economy | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
Putin would be in a lot of trouble. It requires an engagement from the | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
EU and the EU are intending to look at their internal economic problems | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
and will be smarting from the failure within a matter of hours of | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
the deal they tried to broker only nine days' ago. | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
You say if Mr Putin decides to increase the stakes and moves into | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
the east, takes over the whole place, our Government, you say, will | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
find itself with another colossal international headache. Some people | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
watching this will be thinking, what's it got to do with us? It s a | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
long way away from Britain. We haven't a dog in this fight? We have | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
in this regard for the longer term here. I think if there were to be | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
some military action in Ukraine the sense of Russia taking over, it | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
could have a major impact on the global economy in very quick order. | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
You should not deny that. There will be move to have sanctions against | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
Russia. The escalation of that will be difficult. The other fact is | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
looking at our internal affairs and reform, partners, the Baltic states, | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
Finland, Poland, the Czech Republic, they will be looking at a resurgent | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
Russia now and think they'll need to hold as tightly as possible to the | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
EU institutions and the power of Germany at the centre of that. This | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
whole appetite for the reforms politically and economically will be | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
closed very much within a matter of a short period of time. It has | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
longer term implications. Mark Field, thank you. | :11:53. | :12:02. | |
We're joined now by BBC News night's Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban. Is | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
there any prospect of a western military response? Clearly at the | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
moment, it is nil. The boat has sailed with the Crimean. It has been | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
per performed by Russian forces It is now a matter of coordinating a | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
plate cal line. European foreign ministers tomorrow. To say what will | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
our future limits be? Where could we possibly draw red lines? To try to | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
think a couple of steps down this, what happens if Russia interrupts | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
energy supplies to EU member states ornate owe countries? These are the | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
important steps they have to think about. It is quite clear we are in a | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
different world here now. Also, Ukraine is facing a urgent foreign | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
exchange crisis. Within literally a few weeks they could run out of | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
money. All of these are rushing towards decision makers very fast. | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
There is an interim and I suggestion unstable Government in Kiev. Crimea | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
semi-to be under Russian control. There are clashes between the | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
reformers and Russian nationals in the east of the country. What does | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
Mr Putin do next? He has lots of options, of course. He has this | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
carte blanch carte blanch from his Parliament to go in to the rest of | :13:22. | :13:29. | |
Ukraine if he wants to. His military deployment suggests the one bite at | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
a time, just Crimea to start with. See what response comes from the | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
Ukrainian Government. Of course See what response comes from the | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
far, there hasn't been a coherent response. The really worrying thing | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
about recent months, not just recent days, are the indications that the | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
future of Ukraine as a unitary state is now in doubt. Look at it from the | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
other side of the equation. The President when faced with | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
demonstrations, many extremists he was unable to deal with that. Now we | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
have the other side, if you like, the Russian speakers, the other side | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
of the fight, Russian nationalists showing they can get away with | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
unilateral action more or less with impunity. The Ukrainian chiefs have | :14:17. | :14:25. | |
been sacked. I think there are considerable questions now as to | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
whether Ukraine is falling apart and, if that happens, we're into a | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
Yugoslav-type situation which will continue posing very serious | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
questions for the EU and NATO for months or years to come. So, Janan, | :14:41. | :14:48. | |
Ukraine is over? Where the west to concede to the Russian in Crimea, it | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
would perversely be a net loss for Russia. You'd assume the rest of | :14:54. | :15:01. | |
Ukraine would become an un unambiguously a member of the the | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
EU, maybe NATO. On top of that a Russian dream of Eurasion dream | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
they will look at Putin's behaviour and is a, no, thanks, we'll head | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
towards the EU. It is a short-term victory for Putin which backfires on | :15:20. | :15:32. | |
his broader goals in Well, many people said if he grabs Crimea, he | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
loses Ukraine, which is your point. We have seen violent demonstrations | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
in the big eastern cities in Ukraine yesterday. People taking control of | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
certain buildings. The risk is there of spreading beyond Crimea. I think | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
the lack of any unified or visible response from Ukrainian armed | :15:55. | :15:56. | |
forces... They allowed Russian troops to walk into the bases in | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
Crimea. They have supposedly gone on red alert but they have done | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
absolutely nothing. We don't see them deploying from barracks. There | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
are serious questions about whether they would just fall apart. Putin is | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
not going to let them split away. I would have thought he would like the | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
entire Ukraine to come into the Russian ambit. Barack Obama is | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
saying this will not stand. He has a 90 minute conversation with Vladimir | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
Putin and what is his response? I am suspending my cooperation in the | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
run-up to the Sochi Summit. What is the EU doing? Nothing. There is | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
nothing they can do and Putin knows there are a series of lines that he | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
is able to cross and get away with it. Why should Berlin, London, | :16:47. | :16:54. | |
Washington be surprised by the strength of Vladimir Putin's | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
reaction? It was never going to let Ukraine just fall into the arms of | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
the EU. That is the interesting point. And who does he listen to? | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
Paddy Ashdown was saying sent Angela Merkel because she is the only | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
person who can talk to him and I find that response worrying. We need | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
to speak with a united voice but nobody knows what we should be | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
saying. Military intervention is out for the West so we go to economic | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
sanctions. Doesn't Vladimir Putin just say, oh, you want sanctions? I | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
have turned off the gas tap. Yes, it is move and countermove, and it is | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
difficult to predict where it will end up. In all these meetings that | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
are being held, they do think a step or two ahead and try and set out | :17:40. | :18:13. | |
clear lines. Thank you for coming in this morning. | :18:14. | :18:14. | |
Labour has been struggling since 2010 to decide exactly how to take | :18:15. | :18:16. | |
education secretary Michael Gove, one of the boldest reformers of the | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
coalition and most divisive figures. Ed Miliband appointed TV historian | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
Tristram Hunt and many thought Labour had found the man to teach | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
Michael Gove a lesson. But how much do we really know about the party's | :18:25. | :18:26. | |
plans for England's schools? Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are a | :18:27. | :18:28. | |
devolved matter. Child has been back to school to find out. A politician | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
once told me, do you know why education secretaries changed | :18:32. | :18:33. | |
schools? Because they can. Michael Gove might dispute the motive but he | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
is changing schools, like this one. The changes he is ringing in our | :18:37. | :18:38. | |
encouraging them to be academies, free from local authorities to | :18:39. | :18:40. | |
control their own budgets, ushering in free schools, focusing on | :18:41. | :18:42. | |
toughening exams and making them the core of the curriculum with less | :18:43. | :18:44. | |
coursework, and offering heads more discretion on tougher discipline. | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
And he is in a hurry to put all this in place. But has | :18:51. | :18:51. | |
And he is in a hurry to put all this chance for a Labour Government to | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
change it all themselves and do they really want to? Any questions? | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
Visiting a different school, first in line to get a crack at that | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
would-be Labour's third shadow education secretary since 2010, | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
Tristram Hunt. In post, he has not been taken about fine tuning | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
previous direct opposition to free schools and he has also suggested | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
teachers in England would have to be licensed under a Labour Government, | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
allowing the worst to be sacked and offering training and development to | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
others and of course ending coalition plans to allow unqualified | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
teachers into classrooms. Full policy detail is still unmarked | :19:31. | :19:40. | |
work. Your opinion about evolution? What is very clear is that Labour's | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
education policy is still evolving. We are learning that they have some | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
clear water, but we also seem, from the sting at the back, to get the | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
feeling that there is not a great deal of difference from them and the | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
current Government on types of schools and the way education should | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
proceed. -- from listening at the back. So what exactly is different | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
about their policy? What Tristram Hunt's job is to do is to be open | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
and honest about the shared agenda between us and the Tories. There are | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
a lot of areas where there is clear water between us and Tristram Hunt | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
as to turn his back, shared agenda, stop fighting it, and forge our | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
agenda, which I think people will be really interested in. The art of | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
Government, of course, is to balance competing pictures of policy, even | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
inside your own party. It is fair to say that if Labour reflects and | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
draws its own visions of a shared agenda, it might have to square that | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
idea with teaching unions, who are already unhappy with the pace and | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
tone of change that the Government had sketched out. What we sincerely | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
hope is that if Labour were to form the next Government, that they would | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
look at a serious review of accountability measures. That is | :21:00. | :21:21. | |
really what ways on teachers every single day. Actually they would look | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
at restoring the possibility, for example, of local councillors to be | :21:25. | :21:26. | |
able to open schools. That seems eminently sensible. If they are not | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
going to move back from the free schools and academies programme at | :21:30. | :21:31. | |
the very least they need to say that academy chains will be inspected | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
because at the moment they are not. Labour have balls in the air on | :21:35. | :21:36. | |
education and are still throwing around precise policy detail. There | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
are areas that they could grab hold of and seize possession. A focus on | :21:40. | :21:41. | |
the rounding of the people, developing character, the impact of | :21:42. | :21:43. | |
digitalisation on the classroom Also the role and handling of | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
teachers in the system and the interdependence of schools. That is | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
all still to play for. Currently I think the difference between the | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
parties is that the coalition policies, while we do not agree with | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
all of them, are clear and explicit, and Labour's policies are yet to be | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
formulated in a way that everybody can understand clearly. I don't | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
think that Tristram Hunt or Miliband will want to pick unnecessary fights | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
before the election. I think we will have quite a red, pinkish fuzziness | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
around the whole area of policy but after the election there will be | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
grey steel from Tristram Hunt. But if fuzzy policy before the election | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
is the lesson plan, it does rather risk interested voters being left in | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
the dark. Tristram Hunt joins me now for the | :22:38. | :22:48. | |
Sunday interview. Welcome. Thank you. Which of Michael | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
Gove's school reforms would you repeal? We are not interested in | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
throwing a change for the sake of it. When I go round schools, | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
teachers have been through very aggressive changes in the last three | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
years, so when it comes to some of the curriculum reforms we have seen, | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
we are not interested in changing those for the sake of it. Where we | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
are interested in making change is having a focus on technical and | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
vocational education, making sure that the forgotten 15% is properly | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
addressed in our education system. What we saw in your package was an | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
interesting description of how we have seen structural reforms in the | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
names of schools. Academies, free schools, all the rest of it. | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
International evidence is clear that it is the quality of leadership of | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
the headteachers and the quality of teaching in the classroom that | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
transforms the prospects of young people. Instead of tinkering around | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
the names of schools, we focus on teacher quality. Viewers will be | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
shocked to note that this Government approves of unqualified teachers in | :23:49. | :24:04. | |
the classroom. We want to have fully qualified, passionate, motivated | :24:05. | :24:06. | |
teachers in the classroom. It sounds like you might not repeal anything. | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
You might build on it and you might go in a different direction, with | :24:10. | :24:11. | |
more emphasis on technological education but no major repeal of the | :24:12. | :24:13. | |
reforms of Michael Gove? I don't think you want to waste energy on | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
undoing reforms. In certain situations they build on Labour | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
Party policy. We introduced the sponsored academy programmes and we | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
began the Teach First programmes, and we began the London challenge | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
which transformed the educational prospects of children in London We | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
want to roll that out across the country. You have said there will be | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
no more free schools, which Michael Gove introduced, but you will allow | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
parents let academies, which just means free schools by a different | :24:46. | :24:53. | |
name. No, because they will be in certain areas. We want to create new | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
schools with parents. What we have at the moment is a destructive and | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
market-driven approach to education. I was in Stroud on | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
Thursday and plans for a big new school, in an area with surplus | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
places, threatened to destroy the viability of local, rural schools. | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
We want schools to work together in a network of partnership and | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
challenge, rather than this destructive market-driven approach. | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
You say that, but your version of free schools, I think, would only be | :25:23. | :25:48. | |
allowed where there is a shortage of places. That means that where there | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
is an excess of bad schools, parents will have no choice. They still have | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
to send their kids to bad schools. And we have to transform bad schools | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
and that was always the Labour way in Government. At the moment we just | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
have an insertion of new schools. Schools currently underperforming | :26:00. | :26:00. | |
are now underperforming even more. Children only have one chance at | :26:01. | :26:02. | |
education. What about their time in school? Our focus is on the | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
leadership of the headteacher and having quality teachers in the | :26:06. | :26:07. | |
classroom. So they cannot set up new better schools and they have to go | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
to the bad schools. Tony Blair said it should be easier for parents to | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
set up new schools where they are dissatisfied with existing schools. | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
You are not saying that. Even where they are dissatisfied with existing | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
schools, they cannot set up free schools and you are reneging on | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
that. We live in difficult economic circumstances where we have got to | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
focus public finances on the areas of absolute need. We need 250,0 0 | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
new school places. 150,000 in London alone. We have to focus on building | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
new schools and where we have to put them. And secondly... Absolutely | :26:40. | :26:48. | |
not. Focusing on those schools. Making sure we turned them around, | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
just as we did in Government. We have had a remarkable degree of | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
waste under the free school programme. If you think of the free | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
school in Derby, the Academy in Bradford, and as we saw in the | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
Telegraph on Friday, the free schools in Suffolk, a great deal of | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
waste of public money on underperforming free schools. That | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
is not the Labour way. We focus on making sure that kids in schools at | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
the moment get the best possible education. Except that in your own | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
backyard, in Stoke, only 34% of secondary school pupils attend a | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
good or outstanding school. 148 out of 150 of the worst performing local | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
authorities and it is Labour-controlled. Still terrible | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
schools and yet you say parents should not have the freedom to start | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
a better school. We have great schools in Stoke-on-Trent as well. | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
We face challenges, just as Wolverhampton does and the Isle of | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
Wight and Lincolnshire. Just like large parts of the country. What is | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
the solution to that? Making sure we share excellence among the existing | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
schools and making sure we have quality leadership in schools. Those | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
schools in Stoke-on-Trent are all academies. It is not a question only | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
of structure but of leadership. It is also a question of going back to | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
the responsibility of parents to make sure their kids are school | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
ready when they get to school. To make sure they are reading to their | :28:16. | :28:50. | |
children in the evening. We can t put it all on teachers. Parents have | :28:51. | :28:52. | |
responsibilities. I understand that but you have told me Labour's policy | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
would not be to set up new schools which parents hope will be better. | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
Parents continue to send their kids to bad schools in areas like Stoke. | :28:59. | :29:00. | |
Labour has had plenty of time to sort out these schools in Stoke and | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
they are still among the worst performing in the country. You are | :29:04. | :29:05. | |
condemning these parents to having to send their kids to bad schools. | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
Where we have seen the sett ing up of Derby, Suffolk, we have seen that | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
is not the simple solution. Is simply setting up a new is not a | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
successful model. What works is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on | :29:15. | :29:16. | |
Friday at a failing comprehensive is not a successful model. What works | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on Friday at a failing | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
comprehensive school and now people are queueing round the block to get | :29:22. | :29:22. | |
into it. You can turn with the right leadership, | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
passionate and motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
learning outcome of their kids. In the last few years of the Labour | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
Government, only four kids from your this Government would set up the new | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
school. In Birmingham, they got in a great headmaster and turned the | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
school around and now people are queueing round the block to get into | :29:42. | :29:43. | |
it. You can turnaround schools with the right leadership, passionate and | :29:44. | :29:45. | |
motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the learning outcome of | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
their kids. In the last few years of a Labour Government, only four kids | :29:49. | :29:50. | |
from your area of and you had plenty of chances to put this right but | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
only four got to the two and you had plenty of chances to put this right | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
but only four got to the two leading universities. Traditionally young | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
people could leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries, | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
the steel industry, the traditionally young people could | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries, the steel | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
industry, the but also to get an apprenticeship at Jaguar Land | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
Rover, JCB, Rolls-Royce. That is why Ed Miliband's focus on the forgotten | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
15%, which we have just not seen from this Government, focusing on | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
technical and vocational pathways, is fundamental to Your headmaster | :30:31. | :30:51. | |
was guiles Slaughter. Was he a good teacher? He He never taught me. | :30:52. | :30:59. | |
Over 90% of teeners in the private sector are qualified. They look for | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
not simply teachers with qualified teacher status. Teachers with MAs. | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
Teachers who are improving them cephalitis. Becoming better | :31:10. | :31:11. | |
educators. cephalitis. Becoming better | :31:12. | :31:21. | |
teaching. You were taught by unqualified teachers. Your parents | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
paid over ?15,000 a year for you being taught by unqualified | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
teachers. Why did you make such a big deal of it? Because we've seen | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
right around the world those education systems which focus on | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
having the most qualified teachers perform the best. It cannot be right | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
that anyone can simply turn up, as at the moment, have schools at | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
veritising for unqualified teachers teaching in the classroom. We want | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
the best qualified teachers with the deepest subject knowledge, for the | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
passion in learning for their kids. It is absurd we are having arguments | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
about this. Simply having a paper qualification doesn't make you a | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
great teacher. Let me take you to Brighton college. It is gone from | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
the 147th to the 18 18th best private school in the land. Fllt the | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
headmaster says: This is the top Sundaytimes school | :32:21. | :32:42. | |
of the year. The school in derby where this Government allowed | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
unqualified teaching assist taints. We had teachers who could barely | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
speak English. That is because if We had teachers who could barely | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
you have unqualified teachers you end up with a dangerous situation. | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
The problem with that school was not unqualified teachers. People were | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
running that school who were unfit to run a school. We have an issue | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
about discipline and behaviour management in some of our schools. | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
Some of the skills teachers gain through qualifications and learning | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
is how to manage classes and get the best out of kids at every stage It | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
doesn't end with a qualified teacher status. That's just the beginning. | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
We want our teachers to have continue it will development. It is | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
not good enough to have your initial teacher trainingaged work through | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
your career for 30 years. You need continual learning. Learning how to | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
deal with digital technology. Refresh your subject knowledge. As | :33:44. | :33:45. | |
deal with digital technology. an historian I help teachers. You've | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
taught as an unqualified teacher. Not in charge of a subject group. I | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
give the odd lecture. I'm-y to go to as many schools as possible. I don't | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
blame you. It is uplifting. Would you sack all unqualified teachers? | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
We'd want them all to gain teacher status. What if they say no? If they | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
are not interested in improving skills and deepening their knowledge | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
they should not be in the classroom. If a free school or academy hired a | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
teach thinking they are a great teacher but unqualified, if they are | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
then forced by you to fire them they will be in breach of the law. | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
They are being urged by us to make sure they have | :34:38. | :34:39. | |
They are being urged by us to make status. We've lots of unqualified | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
teachers as long as they are on the pathway to making sure they are | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
qualified. But if they say they don't want to do this, will you fire | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
them? It is not an unreasonable suggestion is that the teachers in | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
charge of our young people have qualifications to teach and inspire | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
our young people particularly when we face global competition from | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
Shanghai, Korea and so on. The head teacher of Brighton college finds | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
incredibly inspeechational teachers who don't' necessarily have a | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
teaching qualifications. It is a different skill to teach ten young | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
nice boys and girls in Brighton to teaches 20 or 30 quids with | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
challenging circumstances, special educational needs, different | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
ability. Being a teacher at Brighton college is an easy gig in comparison | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
to other schools. Where we want teachers to have a capacity to teach | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
properly. Do you think Tristram could ever lead the Labour Party? I | :35:45. | :35:52. | |
think Ed is a great leader, the reforms yesterday were a real sign | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
for his leadership. And the fact David Owen, the man with a | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
pre-history with our party is back with us. It is great. Even Gideon | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
had to change his name to George. Have you thought of switching to | :36:05. | :36:13. | |
Tommy or Tony? Maybe not Tony! Michael Foot was called Dingle Foot. | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
I love the Labour because it accepts everybody from me to Len McCluskey. | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
We are a big, broad happy family on our way to Government. Thank you | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
very much. You're watching The Sunday Politics. | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us for Sunday | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
politics Scotland. In over 20 minutes I'll | :36:39. | :36:46. | |
Well come to that part of the programme with us here in the East. | :36:47. | :36:55. | |
Relatives of those scorned hn the First World War for refusing to take | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
up arms commemorate their loved ones. They were fighting for what | :36:59. | :37:10. | |
they believed was right. UKIP's leader addresses the party | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
faithful at its spring confdrence and we speak to are NCP abott the | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
party's fortunes in the East. Guess which politician won ` | :37:21. | :37:31. | |
crackerjack pencil decades `go. First let's meet our guests. Keith | :37:32. | :37:39. | |
Simpson, chairman of the World War I commemoration committee. Kelvin | :37:40. | :37:51. | |
Hopkins from Labour. More from them later. I want to start with those | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
shocking events in the North Sea. Two men thought to have been | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
deported jumped off a ferry. A huge rescue effort was launched but is | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
now one has been found. This was a desperate act. If it was thd act of | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
illegal deportees is there `n issue over security? We do not know if it | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
is a desperate act. There are some questions about what really | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
happened. We do not know thd details of what they were expecting to get | :38:27. | :38:34. | |
at the other end. I cannot genuinely believe that somebody is so | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
desperate that they are going to do this kind of thing. | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
Can you believe that somebody could be so desperate to do that? Indeed. | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
I have a large minority comlunity in my constituency and immigration is | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
part of my postbag. I have come across people who are fearftl of | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
being deported, often two countries that are not so liberal as Britain. | :38:58. | :39:06. | |
Is your Government creating an atmosphere around immigration that | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
is perhaps making people take things into their own hands? Kelvin Hopkins | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
is right that there are certain countries you could be deported to. | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
But getting the Harwich Ferry is not taking you to one of them. Hf you | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
were going to some of the more desperate parts of Africa or Asia. | :39:22. | :39:32. | |
Public opinion is on our side. Labour did hugely under esthmate the | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
numbers of people that are going to come here from the EU. Has that in | :39:36. | :39:45. | |
part treated the problem? Yds, I suspect that many of the deportees | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
are not going to the Europe`n Union. They did under estimated massively. | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
I raised it at the time. I still think there is a problem with free | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
movement within the European Union. But the people I am talking about | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
are going to countries that are far less safe than anything in Durope. | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
Immigration has been just one of their talking points at the UKIP | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
spring gathering. It seems the party cannot stop winning seats in this | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
region. It plays a major role in our local Government. A survey last year | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
showed UKIP supports your at 21 , the highest in the country. | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
According to research of thd council by`elections that had taken place | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
since last summer the Tory vote is down by 6.5%, the Lib Dem voters | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
down by 6%, Labour is down by 4 , UKIP is up by 17%. Nevertheless the | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
party has come up for criticism about whether it has any policies. | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
Yes, says the party leader Nigel Farage, despite calling his own 2010 | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
manifesto drivel. Now, says the man who wrote it, former UKIP NDP for | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
the East later defected to the Conservatives. | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
These people are not fit for Government. They are not a serious | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
political party. Nigel Farage is not interested in | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
all says. He would rather h`ve a blank aid of paper. They will not be | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
a European manifesto. You fhnd out what they believe in after the | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
election which is no way for a serious was a coal party to act You | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
have to believe in policies to be a proper political party. UKIP have | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
been found wanting. I am joined by a UKIP NEP for the | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
East, Stewart Agnew. You are not fit for Governmdnt. You | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
need policies to be credibld. We are keeping things close to our chest | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
until the campaign for the general election because we do not want our | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
policy is stolen. However where we can have policies on other subject | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
which the EU Government, our agricultural policy is now coming | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
out. I have an influential hn that. I am sure almost people in the East | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
who are showing their support for UKIP would like to know abott your | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
policies. Let us start locally. Council tax. Are you going to freeze | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
council tax? That is the aspiration, but that policy as yet | :42:28. | :42:35. | |
has not come out properly. @s I said at the beginning we are keeping our | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
cards close to our chest. This is not a general election that is | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
coming up. It is a European Parliament election. Our policy on | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
council tax is not relevant to that election. | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
How can people vote for you if they do not know what they are voting | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
for? And council tax is verx close to people 's hearts. What are you | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
going to do about local services? On both of these subjects, these are | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
questions for the general election. We are not launching our general | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
election manifesto 18 months before the election. We are facing a | :43:13. | :43:20. | |
European Parliament election. We have got local elections coling up. | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
Are you not concerned about those? Surely you want this opporttnity to | :43:27. | :43:28. | |
tell everyone what your polhcies are? I have not got our loc`l | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
manifesto in front of me as I speak. But you can see that where we have | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
managed to form a group in the Norfolk County Council that we have | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
managed to break the committee system there. That is something we | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
want to do. We have managed to achieve it. Why do you think you | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
have so much support in this region? The number`1 reason is that | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
we are the of emigration from Eastern Europe. Are you not just a | :43:59. | :44:09. | |
protest vote? People accuse us of being a protest party. But the | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
polling we have done suggests that 60% of those who vote for us for | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
four hours because of the policies that they have read, rather than | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
just as a protest. But you `re not telling us about your poliches. I am | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
not want to talk about the general election Wallasey. We are holding us | :44:28. | :44:34. | |
back. We do not want our policy is stolen. We are very concerndd about | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
that happening. We want to produce a general election manifesto that is | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
short and to the point. We want a chance and the opportunity to | :44:46. | :44:47. | |
discuss those over the next few months. We are not talking `bout | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
that at the moment. Do you think that it is your stance on | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
immigration that is winning support? Yes. There are three or four main | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
platforms. Immigration is now the number one in most people 's minds. | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
That is the number one issud in this country. There is also the cost 53 | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
million homes every single day. Then there is the problem of democracy. | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
Our laws are made by people that we do not collect. Then there hs the | :45:23. | :45:30. | |
big worry of the EU energy policy putting up all our electrichty | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
bills. Those are the things that we are fighting the selection on. | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
3.5 million jobs. That is what the Government says is linked to EU | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
membership. That has to be ` good thing. It is total nonsense. I would | :45:44. | :45:51. | |
like to see it more stronglx. It is nonsense. But we were to le`ve the | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
European Union we have 63 mhllion relatively affluent customers goods | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
produced in the European Unhon. We are in the driving seat. We buy far | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
more from them we sell to them. They need our custom. We are not going to | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
see a trade war. This idea of 3 5 million jobs is nonsense. | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
Thank you for joining us. What do you make of that? It was | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
very revealing that Stewart Agnew did not want to produce any form of | :46:26. | :46:32. | |
manifesto. More seriously, what Kelvin Hopkins and I have to take | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
into account that in the last couple of years there has been a rhse in | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
support of UKIP. That is for lots of reasons. It is not only thehr core | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
policy of emigration. I suspect as well it is none of the abovd. | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
Labour, Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, are dissatisfied | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
Your share of the voters down by 6.5% Mr Mac are you worried? Yes. | :46:59. | :47:07. | |
UKIP is a party to the right of the Conservative Party, so miles away | :47:08. | :47:10. | |
from Labour. They are very anti`socialist. They are on the | :47:11. | :47:18. | |
free`market right wing of politics. Labour voters have no interdst in | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
voting for a party of that kind In Britain we have a big Labour | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
majority. `` in Luton. Figures show there was an increase | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
in net immigration of one third UKIP says you cannot control your | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
borders and less you are out of the EU. | :47:39. | :47:48. | |
Government has reduced emigration. A lot of the EU emigration has been | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
because of the accession of Romania and Bulgaria. The irony is that | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
because the UK economy has started to pick up freedom of movemdnt of | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
workers, they are here. Stewart Agnew is a farmer. It does seem to | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
me that the NFU are saying that they are happy to employ lots of foreign | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
workers. He cannot have it both ways. Kelvin Hopkins, you are a | :48:14. | :48:22. | |
Eurosceptic. He said Ed Milhband was unwise to call people barking for | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
wanting to leave the EU. Yot are on the side of UKIP. I am a socialist | :48:26. | :48:35. | |
of the left. 40 years ago L`bour was the Eurosceptic party. It w`s Edward | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
Heath got us into the Europdan Union. I want a democratic socialist | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
Europe, not one built on frde`market capitalist principles. | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
This year marks the centenary of the outbreak of the First World War But | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
it was not only those who fought and died who suffered. We found the | :48:56. | :48:57. | |
grandchildren of a prominent Quaker who spent over two years behind bars | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
for his beliefs and was branded a coward. | :49:05. | :49:13. | |
I call to arms in 1914. Thotsands of men enlisted in a wave of p`triotic | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
fervour, but not all voluntdered to fight. | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
A respected member of the Qtakers was a pacifist. They joined the | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
friends and owns unit is a ledical orderly serving in France in 19 6. | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
He served the country in th`t sense. At the end of the war he was given a | :49:36. | :49:42. | |
couple of medals. His familx have been researching the story `nd | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
discovered from letters to the grandmother that he was worried | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
about the military nature of the adults unit. `` of the ambulance | :49:49. | :50:03. | |
unit. Had I known how things are I would not have joined. He w`s one of | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
16,000 men who refuse to fight wins conscription was introduced in 916. | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
He had left the ambulance unit. He was tried by local tribunal and | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
jailed three times as a conscientious objector. He spent two | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
and a half years in prison. My grandmother always said that the | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
years he spent in prison aided his early death. I know that shd was | :50:28. | :50:34. | |
sent a white feather, as a lot of people were. Some prison sentences | :50:35. | :50:43. | |
for conscientious objectors were harsh. They were given work to do | :50:44. | :50:51. | |
which had no point or value. At that time the idea that you were not a | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
real man and miss you fought for your country was a hard one to stand | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
against. The moral stand must have won him | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
some support. After the war he was elected Labour councillors here at | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
City Hall. In 1946 he becamd Sheriff of Norwich. His whole life was spent | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
in endeavours to help other people. That shows the character of the man. | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
His purpose was never selfish. He was always doing what he cotld for | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
others. He died in 1949 following a stroke, | :51:26. | :51:33. | |
aged just 60. I can remember him as a very gentle kindly man. Mx | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
grandmother was much more stern My grandfather did lots of things with | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
us when we were there. I am very proud of him. I was like to be able | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
to see that I am the ground. Of that gentleman. He was a man who had | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
principles. I admire him for sticking by his principles. Anybody | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
who went through the war, whether on the front, or as conscientious | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
objectors, on both sides of the story they both suffered. Pdople | :52:08. | :52:15. | |
like him and the 16,000 othdrs at conscientious objectors werd not | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
coward 's. What they did to a great deal of courage. | :52:23. | :52:32. | |
Kelvin Hopkins, should therd be more recognition of the sacrificd made by | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
conscientious objectors? I think they are recognised. People | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
understand. War is a pond to millions of us. It is an appalling | :52:44. | :52:51. | |
thing to do. Some awards had to be fought. I understand those who feel | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
that killing other human behngs is absolutely immoral and something | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
that should not do. I understand and I sympathise. The fact that there | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
are people like pacifists, like Quakers, who see all killing is | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
wrong, is something to make us all think. | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
Should conscientious objectors the commemorative? They will be. The | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
Government has said that under a programme of commemoration let 000 | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
flowers bloom. There will bd all kinds of organisations. We will look | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
at different aspects. Those who were conscientious objectors werd part of | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
our national story. They re`lly were a tiny minority. The right to | :53:33. | :53:48. | |
conscientious objection is still not guaranteed in Europe is it? Each | :53:49. | :53:56. | |
country is different. In Brhtain most of our military servicd has | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
been voluntarily. We did not have conscription until 1916. It is the | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
credit of Parliament that the amended the military servicd act to | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
enable their to be conscientious objection. Most countries now within | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
NATO have a very strong and easy way of opting out of what you and I | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
would call National service or conscription. Kelvin Hopkins, is | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
there a danger of celebrating war rather than commemorating? Hndeed. | :54:27. | :54:33. | |
My knowledge of this First World War, I just think of the horror of | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
the trenches. My wife's Rand father died on the Somme. `` the | :54:38. | :54:48. | |
grandfather of my wife. I rdmember as a child many elderly wom`n who | :54:49. | :54:50. | |
were the wives and girlfriends of those who died in the First World | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
War. It was a horror not to be repeated. And yet we still | :54:55. | :55:01. | |
celebrated today. I think wd must remember the people that night and | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
salute them for their bravery and what they went through. `` the | :55:06. | :55:13. | |
people that died. What do you see as the key `im of | :55:14. | :55:20. | |
this year's emanations? The key aim is to remember why we went to war, | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
in particular in terms of young people, thinking about how original | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
conflict can burst into a world war. Even as we are speaking there is a | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
crisis in the Ukraine. Secondly to commemorate the changes that took | :55:36. | :55:43. | |
place. It was world. Thirdlx to commemorate the participation of all | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
our ancestors. Not just the men who became soldiers or those who were | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
conscientious and sectors, but hundreds of thousands of wolen were | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
directly affected. It is not a celebration. It is a commemoration. | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
I hope that young people will look at the evidence and come to their | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
own conclusions. What do you hope young people will | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
take from it? I hope that they will see that human beings must not do | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
these things in future. We lust work for a world that is peaceful. That | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
means equality, social justhce, so that context do not arise. | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
It is time for our 62nd round up of the week. | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
There are no crackerjack pencils for guessing who made an appear`nce on | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
the TV show many years before he got used to playing the game of politics | :56:32. | :56:33. | |
in the House of Commons. Ipswich MP Ben Gummer proposed in | :56:34. | :56:47. | |
the House this week that National Insurance should be renamed the | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
Earnings Tax. It walks like a tax. We should call it a tax. | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
Peter Bone 's says that he `nd his wife are innocent of allegations of | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
fraud relating to the care of his mother`in`law. | :57:03. | :57:08. | |
Staff working for the policd in Sapphic protested over proposals to | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
close the control room as plans to merge operations. Both Suffolk and | :57:12. | :57:20. | |
Norfolk's finances will be dire The Dean committed the Speaker on | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
his new post. I congratulatd you on your new role. | :57:26. | :57:35. | |
John Bercow might have hoped that this footage of him losing on | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
crackerjack had remained N the archive. | :57:40. | :57:47. | |
Your prize is a crackerjack pencils. I wondered if he still has that | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
pencil. Have either of you got archive footage waiting in the | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
wings? I dread to think. I do have. I did the last ever after d`rk on | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
Channel four with Oliver Redd. You can watch it on YouTube. I have | :58:06. | :58:15. | |
never forgotten it. Let us go back to that police story. | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
Norfolk and Suffolk to mergd control rooms. Both need to save money. What | :58:19. | :58:27. | |
is your take on it? Provided that operational aspects are not diluted | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
it will make sense. We do that with the district councils. A lot of the | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
back of this stuff is done. I know that there are objections. Somebody | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
said they would be a lack of local knowledge. In Norfolk at thd moment | :58:42. | :58:51. | |
if you see you are falling from a certain place, there is somdwhere | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
else that sounds very simil`r. The Police and Crime Commissioner 's | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
are not in agreement over it. That is interesting. One concern I have | :59:02. | :59:08. | |
is that the jobs are being lost We live in a period of high and | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
implement. I used to work for Unison and now go. I am concerned for them. | :59:14. | :59:23. | |
The most important point is to preserve local is in policing slugs | :59:24. | :59:33. | |
so that we have local contacts. so that we have local contacts. | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
Government to change it. Thank you both for being here. Andrew, back to | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
you. This week grant Shap said he wanted | :59:44. | :59:55. | |
to rebrand the Tories as the workers' party to show it can reach | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
out to blue-collar workers. One Conservative Party MP said they | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
should scrap what he said was their boring old logo. We asked him and | :00:06. | :00:14. | |
two other independent MPs how they'd freshen up their logos. | :00:15. | :00:23. | |
Aspiration's always been our core value. About helping people get on | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
with life. Giving people ladders of opportunity. That's why our symbol | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
must reflect our values of aspiration and why I'm calling for | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
our symbol to be changed from a tree to a ladder which symbolises social | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
mobility and stands up for everything conservatism represents. | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
I like an he will fanned, an animal that never forgets. We're the only | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
party which seems to remember what life was like before the NHS and | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
minimum wage and the global financial crash was caused by too | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
little regulation not too much. We have a leader who can spot the | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
elephant in the room, the lack of women on the Tory frontbench. The | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
republicans in America have had the same idea. Theirs is a suspicious | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
blue. Our would be deepest red. We love our Liberal Democrat bird. Mrs | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
Thatcher called it the dead parrot when we launched it. We won the | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
Eastbourne by-election off the Tories very soon aftered with. | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
Perhaps it feels like we're in a coalition cage but we're escaping | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
that soon. Why does it fly to the right? Most Liberal Democrats would | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
want it to fly to the left. I hope it will soon. | :01:46. | :01:55. | |
Interesting there. Let's stick with the Robert Hall pin one. He was | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
being serious. The others were fun. It is interesting that talking about | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
appealing to the blue collared vote, the upper working class, lower | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
middle class, curiously now neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miliband has great | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
cut through with these people. But in wanting to be the Workers Party, | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
how do you square that with choosing five old Etonians to draw up four | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
next manifesto. Labour said one of the things was cutting inheritance | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
tax, after all their priorities they went to privilege rather than earned | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
income. Rebranding is not enough. The one question the modernisers | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
never asked themselves when they took party ten years ago is the | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
thing we know as the Conservative Party, salvageable as a brand? I'm | :02:52. | :02:53. | |
beginning to think it isn't. If you look at all public opinion research, | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
there are lots of people in this contrary with Conservative views. | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
They won't vote Tory or contemplate the possibility of voting Tory. Can | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
we get over the electoral problems by relaunching as a different | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
pro-business, pro-worker party. That means new name, new logo. It will | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
mean new people as well. If you say you're on the sides of what Thatcher | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
called the strivers, the people themselves want to see you have | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
strivers in the people who run themselves want to see you have | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
party so you know what we've been through, the struggles we've had. | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
How many of the six drawing up the manifesto have had ever a mortgage. | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
The one who's not an old Etonian went to St Paul's. He's a day | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
schoolboy! It is interesting and it was funny you mentioned an elephant. | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
Don't think of an elephant as the title of that book. Calling it the | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
Workers Party draws attention to the Tories biggest electoral weakness. | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
The idea they are a class apart Out of touch. I think it is interesting, | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
they have identified their elections are won or lost by this particular | :04:09. | :04:17. | |
demo graphic of the C 1, and C . Mrs Thatcher got them by the shed | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
load, Tony Blair got them. His failure in 2010 is the reason David | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
Cameron didn't win an overall majority. I'm disappointed with the | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
ladder. You should have a hammer or sickle! The Conservatives have a | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
terrible brand problem. You heard them explaining why they did badly | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
in the Wythenshawe by-election, saying there's quite a large council | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
estate there In 1961, I think the Conservatives won a by-election back | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
then, they were getting through to those sort of voters. There is not a | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
single Conservative councillor in Manchester. They have this terrible | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
problem. You're right for them to pick up on the five Etonians writing | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
their manifesto. David Cameron sir rounding himself with his own. He | :05:06. | :05:13. | |
doesn't have to do that. I seas things like isn't Robert Halpen | :05:14. | :05:22. | |
great. He decides and has his own. He has some more slightly common | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
people from St Paul's! One of the ways the Conservatives hoped to | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
broaden their appeal is the tougher line on immigration. We learned net | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
immigration is rising substantially. Back up over 200,000. Nigel Farage | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
of UKIP wrapped up the rhetoric In scores of our cities and market | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
towns, this country, in a short space of time, has become N'Zonzi | :05:49. | :05:59. | |
rkable whether it is -- unrecognisable. Whether it is the | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
impact on local schools and hospitals. In many parts of England | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
you don't hospitals. In many parts of England | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
is not the kind of the community we want to leave to our children and | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
grandchildren. Helen, maybe people, I assume, will love the sentiments. | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
Others will say, this is getting... It is going down a dangerous road. | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
Nigel Farage's wife is German and he shares a flat with Godfully Bloom, | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
nobody knows what he's saying half of the time. You can handle the | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
letters from Yorkshire. Alex Salmond does not make his case on Scotland | :06:46. | :06:55. | |
for the Scottish. Let's put aside whether the policy's right or wrong. | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
How bad, by the Tories own lights, is the fact the net figure for | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
immigration went up 60,000? It looks really bad. If I was a Tory | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
strategist, I'd be philosophical about it. Immigration, even if they | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
were meeting the target, I don't think the public would believe it. | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
It is like crime a few years ago, the crime rates had been declining | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
for the best part of 20 years but the fear of crime remains high. | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
There's such a degree of cynicism that regardless of your | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
administrative record in Government, the public will remain hostile to | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
you. This is where Nigel Farage can be potent. He said it is not about | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
numbers. It is about community. It is about people seeing their | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
communities change. And in the Sunday Telegraph, it was said this | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
isn't a dog whistle, a it is a meaty bone for a bull terrier. The problem | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
for the Government on these figures is we know why the net migration | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
figures are not looking good. They got down the non-EU figures but the | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
EU figures are going up. From Italy and Spain as their economies tanked, | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
people came here. If he hadn't made such a big deal of the numbers, the | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
Tories, I mean, you could present this as a huge success story. If you | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
believe immigration was good for the country. You would say it doesn t | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
matter what Labour says, the best and the brightest young people from | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
all over Europe are voting with their feet to come to Britain. But | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
you never hear that case being made and certainly not by Labour. They | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
acknowledge although immigration is best in the abstract for the | :08:45. | :08:46. | |
economy, people don't feel it best in the abstract for the | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
their daily lives. There's a huge vacuum for the case where | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
immigration should be in our public life. I remember a time when the | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
economy was in such decline there was a rush to the door in the | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
sixties and seventies. Now we are claiming our economy's doing better | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
than any of the other major economies bar Germany, people want | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
to join in our success. London was a declining city until the | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
mid-eighties. Theresa May cannot be honest. She was proposing a cap on | :09:19. | :09:26. | |
immigration. Not going to happen. Today she is saying maybe people | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
from poorer member states cannot come in until their economies grow. | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
That's future accession states. That's Turkey in ten years' time It | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
is causing divisions with the coalition. She's bashing Vince | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
Cable. You often see Liberal Democrats bashing the Tories. You | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
don't often see a Tory minister bash Vince Cable. She does on the | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
immigration figures. He thought they were good news. Last week, Vince | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
responded to the news by saying it was a policy he was happy for the | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
gift to flunk. The problem was going for a cap. There are six moving | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
parts. UK citizens leaving, coming back. EU citizens leaving and coming | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
back and then third party nationals. And students coming to study. Of | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
course. You only have control over the EU citizens. Have you to clamp | :10:22. | :10:30. | |
down on ace strayian, Chinese or American graduates. They should have | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
gone for the Australian points system. I don't have a pure cap on | :10:36. | :10:43. | |
numbers just background etc. Tim Farran said in the European election | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
either vogue Liberal Democrat or UKIP. He turned that to his | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
advantage. It is hopeful but he s come up with a way to spin this | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
Labour has his special conference. Was it or was it not an event? Not | :11:00. | :11:09. | |
sure it was the biggest moment in the party since 1918. But things | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
fell apart in the special conference in 1981. 2004 got another special | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
conference. Who's on board? David Owen who founded the gang of four. | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
He's not joined but he's given them money. He's not going to sit with | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
them in the Lord's. He's given money. They lost the gang of four. | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
Back comes David Owen. Not historic? Why would he want it to be more | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
significant than it was. There's a tendency to see him taking the fight | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
to his party. Why would he want that? The fact it has not pleased | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
Grant Shapps is not a test to see whether this has worked. It has been | :11:52. | :12:03. | |
described as an historic moment and incremental of what John did. The | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
trade union block voters disappeared a long time ago. They still have 50% | :12:10. | :12:17. | |
of the vote. But 2,000 of union members voting for this guy has | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
gone. It is a reform from 20 years ago. Welcome but not historic. Ed | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
Miliband's stored up trouble. Len McCluskey wants a million new homes | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
and answered to the benefit caps is not reconcilable with the deficit | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
reduction strategy. In five years' time if there is a Labour Government | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
it becomes very difficult. We should keep an eye on it? Always. Labour | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
Party process is never ending. Unlike this programme. That's all | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
from us today. Continuing reports of events in the Ukraine on the BBC | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
News Channel. There's no Daily Politics tomorrow because of cover | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
Arg of the Nelson Mandela memorial service at Westminster Abbey on BBC | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
Two live. We'll be back on the Daily Politics on Tuesday at midday. | :13:09. | :13:10. | |
Two live. We'll be back on the Daily be back here next week with the Work | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
and Pensions Secretary, Ian Smith. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
Politics. | :13:20. | :13:37. |