14/09/2014 Sunday Politics East


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Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.


Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out


their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.


They released a video late last night, showing a masked man


beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.


The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.


Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.


David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.


As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA


President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder


Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as


he predicts a historic and substantial victory in


As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,


I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his


And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown


David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask


Here in the East: it's enough to win over waverers.


The campaign in the Clacton by`election takes off, now `ll


And students with disabilithes believe benefit changes could


step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?


Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that


Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the


The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American


journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently


beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.


The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,


also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK


Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed


His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he


David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said


his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary


Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power


to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,


Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.


Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr


Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.


Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who


have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David


Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action


Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or


any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a


will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in


that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a


collective response to what is a threat to humanity.


Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now


Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet


again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options


facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I


think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these


hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government


policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states


are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to


make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might


be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the


past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the


hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one


there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the


difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.


Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction


the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in


perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not


just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining


his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about


building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And


training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the


UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been


arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually


conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We


have not got a clear answer from government and that is something


where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible


we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I


think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to


a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however


terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play


more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait


see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would


like to see would be British and American special forces going in and


getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is


very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few


months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the


ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of


kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so


you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get


the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a


possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly


challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating


within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are


looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,


thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed


to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever


lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked


like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,


though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO


would carry the day. The new consensus is that


it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of


the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign


had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the


undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of


63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move


into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as


the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the


average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.


There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the


first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the


other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by


Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and


there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have


the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but


their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another


suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against


50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with


yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are


undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling


booths that could make all the difference.


campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.


Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the


Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You


sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working


people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,


a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been


achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being


thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the


underlying interests of working people are on working on the


relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very


messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the


children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,


and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded


that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK


context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the


opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in


taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on


companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest


of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,


country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public


expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have


Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The


British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex


Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.


And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,


the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be


gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working


people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in


fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,


Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely


if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the


way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But


Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The


polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the


average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip


and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as


Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour


government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a


stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.


That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the


people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on


your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my


feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the


house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not


only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy


-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will


mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The


cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the


financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry


of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or


less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in


an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about


nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are


against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by


independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.


The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The


danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex


Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately


joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --


involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a


peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole


that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military


entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,


till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the


grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines


and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other


hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British


nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it


showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely


riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to


be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises


of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for


the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told


us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?


I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result


This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation


of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The


country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And


the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a


300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour


leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer


one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this


deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it


will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,


particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and


decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of


Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just


months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of


people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a


grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which


history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get


out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.


Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,


they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in


Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the


Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the


chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly


right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty


and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many


but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,


but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the


situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It


is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the


roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she


pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would


not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.


If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it


would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another


issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the


Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering


home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had


signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble


for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of


all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to


risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win


on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe


fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already


aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with


death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday


if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this


home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on


this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland


getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole


procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home


rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to


introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional


monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It


was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James


Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not


rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.


It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns


in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum


Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign


It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new


great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,


Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous


Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.


Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the


referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron


did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set


out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,


a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed


improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a


basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called


Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the


leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded


with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of


campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a


break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes


campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they


accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when


the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one


week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the


first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to


head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that


you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision


if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally


different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex


Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the


NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden


-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex


Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were


other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like


Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to


Trident based on the Clyde? Would an am British and I hope to be staying


British. This is what people from Scotland have done, taken to the


rest of the world in many cases and I think I am going to vote yes. I am


rest of the world in many cases and because they think it will be more


Scotland. You have already got because they think it will be more


care for the elderly. You might not in future have that if public


spending is overdependent on the price of oil, over which you have no


control. We don't have to worry about one single resource, we


already have 20% of the fishing stock in Europe. We already have 25%


of the wind, wave and solar power generation. We, as an independent


country, have huge resources, natural resources but also people


resources. We have five first-class universities, food and beverages


industry which is the envy of the world. We have the ability to


produce the resources on the revenues that won't just maintain


the health service and education but it will develop health and


education. I don't want to stand still, I want to redistribute


wealth. But all of the projections of public spending for an


independent Scotland show that to keep spending at the current level


you need a strong price of oil and you are dependent on this commodity


which goes up and down and sideways. That is a gamble. I have got to


laugh because I have been told the most pessimistic is that in 40 years


the oil is running out, panic stations! If you were told by the


BBC you could only guarantee employment for the next 40 years you


would be over the moon. I am talking about in the next five. You need 50%


of your revenues to come from oil to continue spending and that is not a


guarantee. Of course it is, the minimum survival of the oil is 0


years. Please get your viewers to go onto the Internet and look at the


website called oilandgas.com. The West Coast has 100 years of oil to


be extracted. It hasn't been done because in 1981 Michael Heseltine


said we cannot extract the oil because we have Trident going up and


down there. Let's get rid of Trident and extract the oil. You are a trot


right, why have you failed to learn his famous dictum, socialism in one


country is impossible. Revolutions and change are not just single


event. What will happen here on Thursday is a democratic revolution.


The people are fed up of being patronised and lied to by this mob


in Westminster who have used and abused us for far too long. The


smaller people now have a voice What about socialism in one


country? Mr Trotsky warned you against that. The no campaign


represents the past. The yes campaign represents the future. That


is the truth of the matter. What we are going to do in an independent


Scotland is tackle inequality and a scourge of low pay. If we vote no on


Thursday, there will be more low pay on Friday, more poverty and food


banks on Friday. I'm not going to be lectured by these big banks, you


vote less -- yes and we will leave the country! The food banks will be


the ones closing. If you got your way, for the type of Scotland you


would like to see, state control of business, nationalisation of the


Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be clogged with people


Yes, hoping to come into Scotland, because in their hearts, the


Scottish people know that England want to see the people having the


bottle. The working class people in Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of


London, they are saying good on the jocks that are taking on big


business. When we are independent and investing in social housing the


people of England will say, we can do that as well, and they will


rediscover the radical tradition. In wanting to build socialism in one


country, it really means you are fighting for the few, rather than


the many. You are bailing out of the socialist Battle for Britain. You


think it will be easier to make it work. Think globally, act locally


and we will build socialism in Scotland but I wanted across the


world. I won my brothers and sisters in England and Wales to be


encouraged by what we do so they can reject the Westminster consensus as


well -- I want. We had the three Stooges coming up to London, three


millionaires united on one thing, austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed


Miliband wins the next election he said he would stick to the story


spending cuts. Why vote for Ed Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to


run a bath, not a country. Let's see if this is realistic, this great


socialist vision. At the last Scottish election, the Socialist


party got 8000 votes. The Conservatives got 30 times more


votes. Where is the appetite in Scotland for your Marxist ideology


question we might not win it. But do you know what, see in two years


time. See when we have the Scottish general election. You won't -- you


are saying you might win and you went to the Holyrood election and


got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won a democratic election and then won


the 2011 election and you know why they won? Because they picked up the


clothes that the Labour Party has thrown away. They picked up the


close of social democracy and protecting the health service was --


service. There are people in the SNP who believe in public ownership and


people in the SNP who believe in the NHS should be written into a


constitution as never for sale people in the the SNP that think the


Royal mail should return to public ownership. That is there in black


and white. Do you agree with George Galloway that this is potentially a


crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish Labour is finished. They are


absolutely finished. George is right in that. Scottish Labour is


finished. The irony of ironies is, Labour in Scotland has more chance


of recovery in an independent Scotland that they have in a no


vote. Labour in Scotland in an independent country will have to


rediscover the traditions of Keir Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon,


because right now, they are to the right of the SNP as a political


party. I understand the socialist vision, but it is where the appetite


is. And you look at the independence people in Scotland. One of your


colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who fought against the appeal -- repeal


of homosexual rights in Scotland. Another of your allies would seem to


be Rupert Murdoch, the man who engineered your downfall. You say he


engineered your downfall, but I m still here and his newspaper has


closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch, Brian Souter, or any other


millionaire supporting independence, I couldn't care less. This boat on


Thursday is not about millionaires, it is about the millions. -- this


vote. We will not be abused any young -- longer. Would you rather


not have their support? I couldn't care about the support. You know who


is supporting the union. It is the unions of the big businesses, the


BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who support it. You are giving me a


stray that has wandered into the campaign and are you seriously going


to argue with me that the establishment isn't united to try


and save the union? That is what they are trying to be. The BBC, you


have been a disgrace in your coverage of the campaign. Not you


personally. You don't have editorial control. The BBC coverage,


generally, has been a disgrace and the people. Oil and gas, go and look


at that, why is that not feature. Why is the idea of 100 years of oil


not featured in the campaign. Because the BBC does not want to see


it. Are you getting in your excuses if you lose? You better be kidding.


Is this the face of somebody looking to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40.


Absolutely. There is a momentum that you guys are not seeing on the


working-class housing estates. Working class people are fed up


being taken for granted fed up with the lives of people dragging us into


tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor. They will have power on Thursday,


and they will use it and vote for freedom. Are you happy with the way


the BBC has treated you today? So far, yes. I have still not been


offered a Coffey, but that might happen. That is an obvious example


of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to you later with George Galloway.


Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics here in the East.


We're back after an extraordinary summer bre`k with


one of our Conservative MPs causing a political storm by defecthng to


Could benefit changes for students with disabilities mean more of them


And whatever happens in the referendum on Scottish independence,


will it eventually mean powdr over our own affairs here in the East?


Regions such as ours, which have a distinct cultural identitx


from the rest of the South Dast will start pressuring for this.


But let's start with the by`election in Clacton.


It's now just over two weeks since Douglas Carswell, the sitting


MP, lobbed a grenade into the world of politics by not only


defecting from the Tories to UKIP, but also standing down as an MP


The main parties all have their candidates in place, `fter


the Conservatives chose thehrs at a public meeting on Thursdax night.


He's Giles Watling, an actor and a local councillor


We'll hear from the other c`ndidates in a moment, but first Mr W`tling,


We now have the fastest`growing economy in the G7.


We're beginning to sort out the borders.


And I want to go ahead and be part of that team to do that.


It's important for Clacton, we have got a great future here, it is a


great place here, it's a sp`rkling jewel in the crown of Essex.


They want the changes that H think this country desperately nedds and


that the Westminster establhshment is not able to give them.


Do you still think you've done the right thing?


Do you know, the response I've had from local


people has removed any elemdnt of doubt that I might have had.


Europe hasn't come up on the doorstep, hardly at `ll.


We are talking about those hssues that really matter, it is about jobs


and the lack of investment in Clacton over the years.


It has been left behind, There is no economic recovery here.


But I know the British people actually like


And basically, the underdogs will come fighting back.


I think the message is, trust the Lib Dems because they have


actually got a good track rdcord and we haven't shouted about it


Andrew Sinclair has been spdnding a lot of the last fortnight


So what is this election really about?


Well, the national press and the Westminster village keep trying


to make out this is to do whth Europe and splits in the Tory party


over when to call a referendum, but no one is talking about that


I think this election has more to do with process than polhcy.


If you look at the reasons that Douglas Carswell gave for joining


Instead, he talks a lot abott local issues and I know that for the last


year or so he has felt very frustrated that when it has come to


important local issues, things like GP shortages which plays very big


here, plans to build more houses and things,


he's felt that local people and even himself, despite how hard they have


shouted, no one at Westminster has been listening to them.


The other thing is that Douglas Carswell is a great believer


in MPs being accountable to the people who have elected them.


He has always believed in the right to recall, the ability to c`ll a


by`election if constituents are not happy with their MP and holding open


Now the Tory party have toydd with this idea,


but he has always thought that they are not committed enough to it.


So, what do all the other local Tory MPs make of this?


Well, I have found no one alongst any Tory MPs in


our region who is openly supporting him or who agrees with him.


On the whole they are largely disappointed,


especially Eurosceptic MPs, who feel they have lost one of their own


Having said that, if you set aside the Europe issue,


I have spoken to someone normally very loyal MPs who said we `ctually


A couple of MPs have said that if you are not part of the Cameron


or Osborne clique it is verx hard to get heard at Westminster


and it's very hard to get ftnding for your area.


They do say they have a degree of sympathy with him on that.


And campaigning really has started now.


Yes, now we have a Tory c`ndidate in place, the four main candidates


Serious campaigning can get underway.


So far, it has been pretty low`key and I think it will probablx stay


low`key until after the Scottish referendum, because everyond's sent


their resources up there for the next week or so.


Once the Scottish referendul is over, I think this will become


Let's meet our guests now for this week.


Iain Stewart, Conservative LP for Milton Keynes, who grew up


And Robin Tilbrook, the Chahrman of the English Democrats Party which


is based in Essex and campahgns for an English Parliament.


Are you putting up a candid`te? I am certainly considering doing so and


we will make the decision this weekend only have a conference. Do


you agree with what and you were saying? I think it is to sole extent


about Europe and that questhon. The wider national questions. All


elections are to some extent about local issues. Perhaps it certainly


hasn't gelled as a campaign as yet. I must say I have some symp`thy with


Douglas Carswell and the wax he behaved in designing. Standhng and


creating a by`election, bec`use people, many people will have voted


to him as a Conservative and so it is right, I think, that people are


given the chance to vote ag`in. Personally, I think Clapton is


potentially a good area bec`use there are a lot of people there as


the 2011 census results show, who feel it's important to be English


not British. Iain Stuart, I said that he got a political grenade into


the political world. That you have any idea this was coming? No it was


very surprising. Only a few months ago does your scars with was saying


`` Douglas Carswell was sayhng he agreed negotiating our membdr ship


again and going to the publhc in a referendum. He was in favour of


that. As William Hague said at Prime Minister's Questions this mtst be


the first case of someone ldaving a party because the absolutelx agreed


with it. There is some bemusement about his move and also somd anger


because he has turnaround and bitten deep head of the party who gave him


his political career. Was this a gimmick, this primaries ide`? Is it


a gimmick? It's not. We havd used that method in number of selections,


starting with the MPV Totnes in Devon in the last parliament and a


good number of card that re`d candidates for this election have


been selected as way. Dougl`s Carswell says he is all in favour


these primaries but yet his party booted out the candidate thdy had


already selected that seat `nd imposed one. It doesn't seel to be a


particular act of principle. I thought it would have been


interesting is the Conservative Party had put up the previots deputy


leader of UKIP and when the other way. That would have led to a much


more interesting contrast. He was elected to serve in the European


Parliament, he was also my thought. There is an issue with having a


double mandate as Roger Heller found out of his cost when he was a


candidate for UKIP, people did not like that. A politician frol one


parliament would just be ond in another. Are you going to bd


campaigning? I was there on Thursday already with many of my cat do like


a colleague to congratulate Giles on his selection. One thing on the


primaries, if the Labour Party said there are two candidates or another


party said that, one of thel we don't bet the candidates of comedy


that we quite like, let's go and fight to him. Does that happen?


Certainly in America, it is commonplace and they have


primaries. The opposition p`rty wades in and votes of the wdaker


candidate. Does it bother you? There are always risks. The party locally


dropped a short list and sahd it be content with only one of thd


candidates on the base of which two excellent people went through to the


primary meeting on Thursday night. Giles was the winner. Both were


strong people. We will hear more shortly.


It's that time of year when thousands of parents are packing


It's never easy but what if the young person has


In the past those young people were entitled to


an allowance to help meet the cost of any special help they nedded


But in April the government announced


some changes, passing responsibility to the universities themselves.


Rosemary Howell is registered blind.


She has the rare eye diseasd amridia which means She has no iris in her


I struggle reading, I don't write anything.


I use computers quite a lot to take notes and browse the wdb.


Rosemary will have to use a specially adapted laptop with


She would also need a note`taker and a personal assistant to help


guide her while she studying Event Management at the University


I know from other visually hmpaired people who I met at college that


they are put off from going to university because


they know that they will not get all the equipment or human help that


Here at the University of Hertfordshire, they are proud


that disabled students outpdrform non`disabled students.


That is something they are keen to continue.


There is a consultation takhng place now but it's too late,


What we would have liked to have seen was more consultation


They are still very unclear what the changes will mean.


But they are worried that it could cost universities around ?100,0 0


It's really hard to say how well`prepared we are


There are 4,315 full and part`time undergraduates


That is about 5% of the region's students in total.


Universities didn't necessarily have the capacity to implement


the same kind of provision that the DSA ctrrently


gives and there are issues `round the timescale of the reforms and


Rosemarie counts herself lucky to be going to university


and disabled students need `ll the help they can get.


Being visually impaired, it's ten times worse


at getting a job as a normal person because, as much as people say they


don't discriminate, they actually do because who would employ


a blind person because they don t know what they can actually do.


We were hoping to put some of the points to the


Universities Minister, Greg Clarke, but he was not available.


So the Department for Busindss, Innovation Skills sent us this


statement and it appears th`t they have changed their minds.


Could I just say, this is a department which in Scotland is part


of the Scottish Government. In England, we have the British


government deciding what happened for us. It is part of our issue that


students are not being propdrly looked after in England. I know you


are going to talk about the subject in detail and in particular, but it


does sound a U`turn in parthcular doesn't it. I think if you look at


the process of government where people make sensible constrtctive


criticism of the details of the policy, the government does take


notice of it and make appropriate adjustments. I will come back again


in just a little while. Right,


let's talk about Scotland now. One thing is certain,


the vote on independence appears to But whatever happens on Thursday,


there is no doubt many of the arguments


about local decision making are not We asked Professor Paul Whiteley,


from the University of Essex, what it could mean here


in the east of England. Region such as ours,


which have a distinct cultural identity, from the rest of the South


East, will start pressing for this. We want to do something abott the


problems of infrastructure here problems of broadband, railways all


the things that we discuss. That kind of feeling is going


to emerge gradually over tile. that is much stronger


and demands political recognition. One of the backgrounds for


the present situation we're in is that the English devolution must be


addressed. It is more compldx than just looking at the regions of


England, because what are they? I represent in Milton Keynes


constituency, notionally in the south`east of England, but we are


covered by BBC East, we havd a lot of links at Northampton in the East


Midlands. What exactly are the regions? What I want to see is


further empowerment of local government. We have seen sole moves


in that direction with some cities taking on directly elected layors


with a lot of devolution in transport spending. I think that is


a process that started and H think there is room for a sensibld debate


about how that continue. And you would support that, would you? Is a


general direction of travel, yes. I don't there is one cigar model that


can be imposed on England. Ht doesn't fit neatly into reghons ``


one single model, we had a referendum on this a few ye`rs ago


and it was rejected by 80% of the voters. People don't want to see


another tranche of politici`ns elected to the once we're rdady


have. But there are ways yot can improve on how we organise things.


Robin, you had better tell ts how you stand on Scottish devolttion. We


are in favour of the Scots voting yes and also that will be


independent England. Would xou go further? All the regions in the


country having their own... I think the idea of regional identity sounds


totally bogus in England. Why? Because there isn't a regional


identity in that way. What we have... We have just heard from the


professor saying, yes there is! My family are from East Anglia the many


debt `` generations, there hs any East Anglia, but there is no idea


then Eastern region. So East Anglia would have its own... At th`t is


more the counties. That is rooted in history. That is not to say dizzy


equivalency Scottish and Welsh devolution. Scottish devolution was


not about regions, but about nations. Our nation is Englhsh and


our country is England. It hs not the or the East of England. All the


south`west,... You have a Scot sitting next to you, who stood in


Scotland. My nationality is British. When you sit in Scotland, dhd you


mention anything about Brithshness? I have all been perfectly clear


about my identity. I was born in Scotland to a Dutch family H had my


school education there, but University in England `` to a


Scottish family. I regard mxself as English. It is like being a husband


and a far the `` father, thdy are different but you can be both. So


you are against more power for the regions, but you supported. I am not


in favour of any form of regional government, but I think in Scotland,


there is transport planning, some of the city regions in the north`west


of England do have more control over how they set policy. At


administrative level it is not a problem.


OK, from Scotland to the Shhp of the Fens and much more in otr round


Health bosses have ruled out downgrading maternity and children's


departments at both Bedford Hospital and Milton Keynes General.


Upgrading the rail line to Norfolk was on the mind of Norwich LP,


She briefed the Rail Ministdr about the catalogue


I was making sure the Rail Linister knows exactly how bad it has been


Controversial plans for a bypass around Ely havd been


approved, despite a protest that claimed it would ruin


The Community Secretary, Erhc Pickles, could have the fin`l say.


At Prime Minister's Questions, the MP for Colchester raised


the risk to security and defence which could be caused


The garrison town of Colchester has welcomed thousands of Scotthsh


While Bedford's Richard Fuller celebrated


the 60th wedding anniversarx of his Scottish mother and English father.


In their union, as in the other union, they are


That is the week in 60 seconds. Are you looking forward to this week, to


the vote on Thursday? Or ard you nervous? I am nervous because I


think so much that state, the future of what I regard as the world's most


successful political, econolic and social union is under threat. So


you're nervous and you are dxcited? I am. The only argument I h`ve it


heard that is rational for maintaining the union with senior


politicians has been somethhng about keeping Scotland in the union


because it enables us to punch enough weight on the world's stage.


I don't that is the role as a government of a country of our level


in the world, now. That is ` post`imperial delusions of grandeur


as far as I'm concerned. I don't agree with that at all. Our


membership of the UN and thd Security Council. I think wd need


it. Thank you both of you for being here.


You can keep in touch via otr website where you will also find


links to Deborah McGurran's blog for all the latest political updates.


We're back at the same time next week, when


we'll be looking at the Labour Party Conference, now back to Andrew.


The last time a sewer was built in London was 150 years ago, otherwise


we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.


Can the No campaign still pull it off?


And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink


I'm joined now by John McTernan former adviser to Gordon Brown


and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP


and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor


And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.


No fighting has broken out either. Where


No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go


No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of


play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital


is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about


500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know


which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no


campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do


you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big


swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it


over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment


swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians


and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think


that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general


election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week


the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were


going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls


show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one


or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding


another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it


statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.


About a fifth of the electorate That will be a quarter of the


turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running


very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The


postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic


that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,


the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and


always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the


decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to


18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no


campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I


think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a


20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they


will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health


warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is


unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of


yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex


Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the


momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept


Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of


economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as


scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What


does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to


focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to


the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say


it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on


the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the


economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk


is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has


to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive


home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who


want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they


want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though


the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have


failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they


say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days


of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the


media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the


final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the


Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,


but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are


picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge


number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with


politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election if


I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of


questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier


with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all


of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as


a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown


during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex


Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he


continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under


his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health


service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe


Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as


quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people


as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.


Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish


Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him


the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He


crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a


certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent


himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who


was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red


paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the


Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both


been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than


looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't


Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?


What George and I are agreed on and you have to remember this question


of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other


things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,


Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of


Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an


independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed


miserably, absolutely miserably because they have given up


everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just


taken on the bank -- mantle of a left of centre party and are picking


up support. Gordon and the rest in my opinion, they represent the past.


The yes vote on the Yes campaign represents the future. What do you


say to that? There is nothing socialist about an SNP that wants to


cut business tax by 3% in the pan. There is nothing socialist about an


SNP destroying further education so they can give middle-class people


free education. The Labour Party is alive and kicking. You can see if it


is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to


use this word, but they are kind of privatised from the Scottish Labour


Party. They have rode their own fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump


because official Scottish Labour did not want him leading their campaign.


Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off the stage until it became so


critical that he had to be brought back. I agree with John, the SNP


talks left but acts right. That is before they get state powers. That


is what is exciting about the referendum, it's not about the SNP,


it's about the people deciding. What we have heard so far in the


referendum campaign is that there is a desperate yearning in the


electorate for real politics, purposeful politics and for the


people to be represented. It is probably to the eternal shame of


labour that they gave up that role and other people are now taking it


upon themselves. How would you assess the state of the Labour


Party? The problem is that it was demolished by the SNP in 2011 and


what they should have done since then and in other circumstances is


take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and


policies and watch out what they stood for. They've been unable to do


that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan


of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as


an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own


programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have


more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre


question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the


function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there


is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an SNP which attracts votes from the


left and that is the one for me Whether that is called the SNP or


something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are


going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally


flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English


dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum


campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour


of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip


from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this


unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets


second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the


same as us, they should have it and then there would be commonality so


we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies


in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear


that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge


implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly


after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge


applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that


there should be an English boys It would be a step too far for me to


agree with him -- English voice I appreciate I might have gone out on


a limb. He is the voice of Mars the Balkan from Mars. My own


constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things


being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about


us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the


John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet


to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in


Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon


Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has


absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,


hey, what are you talking about We have never been discussed with that?


We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get


the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you


think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented


election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working


class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our


side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --


technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it


is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am


predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.


Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will


edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in


a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the


passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,


53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with George. I will leave you


to argue about that later. Thank you for being with us on the special


Sunday politics from Edinburgh. That's all from us today


in Scotland. Don't forget the Daily Politics will


have continuing coverage of the referendum campaign all this


week on BBC2 at midday. On Thursday night Huw Edwards will


be in Glasgow and I will be in London to bring you live coverage


of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm on a historic night for Scotland


and the rest of the United Kingdom. And I'll be back next Sunday


when we're live from the Labour Unless, of course, the referendum


result is so tumultuous even the Remember if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics.


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