21/09/2014 Sunday Politics East


21/09/2014

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Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering

:00:08.:00:12.

for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what

:00:13.:00:14.

the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for

:00:15.:00:53.

Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north

:00:54.:00:58.

But what about Home Rule for England?

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Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells

:01:07.:01:11.

us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've

:01:12.:01:16.

Here in the east. people who want to be Labour

:01:17.:01:22.

Why Labour doesn't want rail services for passengers in this

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And we've run our affairs bdfore, why can't we do it again?

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powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step

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for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the

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business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,

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Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to

:01:54.:01:58.

other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,

:01:59.:02:04.

but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and

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enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when

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it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons

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of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,

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the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It

:02:22.:02:31.

has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that

:02:32.:02:34.

they hoped would swing the vote there was nothing about English only

:02:35.:02:41.

votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core

:02:42.:02:45.

justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the

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House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. -

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cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David

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Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris

:03:00.:03:03.

Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr

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Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood

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and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he

:03:11.:03:21.

They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the

:03:22.:03:28.

Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is

:03:29.:03:36.

a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the

:03:37.:03:40.

ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He

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knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a

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draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they

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had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve

:03:53.:03:54.

these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they

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don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about

:04:03.:04:08.

is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at

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the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an

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overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern

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Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is

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whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he

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would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get

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either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause

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Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband

:04:40.:04:45.

this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why

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shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this

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morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and

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English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is

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in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his

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announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in

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Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if

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Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is

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handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural

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Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory

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backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be

:05:28.:05:30.

in which bodes for English laws Even people in the Shadow Cabinet

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think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a

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partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on

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course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,

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and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the

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Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in

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sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this

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one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle

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to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband

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and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett

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Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,

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but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how

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the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,

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Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,

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because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher

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in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs

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aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the

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Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How

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can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just

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about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we

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are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers

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of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the

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wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we

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should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to

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the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett

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Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively

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prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance

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staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is

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more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland

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than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very

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poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That

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they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the

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Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand

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the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster

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politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to

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rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your

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leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of

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all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the

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Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was

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counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing

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voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep

:08:13.:08:17.

proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We

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said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes

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on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,

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pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of

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the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a

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Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double

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standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly

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unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is

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unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland

:08:56.:09:00.

gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London

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Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There

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is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount.

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Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year

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revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5

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billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer

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investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a

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more federal system, we would need to look at things like the

:09:37.:09:39.

allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted

:09:40.:09:43.

as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party

:09:44.:09:47.

architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so

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it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to

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the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs

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basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of

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Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his

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promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English

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votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he

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made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked

:10:17.:10:21.

on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots

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of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at

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this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find

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that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot

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just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for

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all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more

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devolution to Scotland, but let s deliver on promises to be English,

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and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's

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leave it there. Thank you for joining us.

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The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from

:10:58.:11:00.

the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex

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Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us

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another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand

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Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.

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In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,

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but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke

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The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for

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Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big

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screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories

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high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The

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other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is

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enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot

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papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000

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and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the

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first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like

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Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to

:12:22.:12:27.

sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you

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small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign

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applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went

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their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for

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independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of

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tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the

:12:55.:12:58.

refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy

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place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British

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establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this

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referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the

:13:14.:13:18.

establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.

:13:19.:13:23.

But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC

:13:24.:13:28.

called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence The

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result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the

:13:35.:13:36.

official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen

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three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as

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the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south

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as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if

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it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote

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separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax,

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spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern

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Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take

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place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.

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It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See

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you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be

:14:28.:14:30.

another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There

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was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist,

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his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the

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Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So,

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the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader

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gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as

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First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last

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night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if

:15:12.:15:15.

it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I

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certainly have thought about it Andrew. But for most of the

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referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was...

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Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally

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made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the

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decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you

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get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real

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possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion

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but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of

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the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are

:16:05.:16:08.

the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my

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judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the

:16:13.:16:16.

National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership.

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In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day

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approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought

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for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real

:16:32.:16:39.

chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the

:16:40.:16:42.

decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering,

:16:43.:16:48.

the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from

:16:49.:16:50.

Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the

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offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across

:16:56.:17:00.

to independence saw within that a reason to say, well, we can get

:17:01.:17:03.

something anyway without the perceived risks that were being

:17:04.:17:11.

festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream.

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You won Scotland's largest city There is now the prospect of more

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power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is

:17:23.:17:29.

a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part

:17:30.:17:33.

of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire

:17:34.:17:37.

wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to

:17:38.:17:42.

be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see

:17:43.:17:46.

that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There

:17:47.:17:51.

are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the

:17:52.:17:55.

party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24

:17:56.:18:02.

years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many

:18:03.:18:05.

able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will

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do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take

:18:10.:18:17.

this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is

:18:18.:18:20.

developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that

:18:21.:18:24.

lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won

:18:25.:18:30.

end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days

:18:31.:18:34.

before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would

:18:35.:18:38.

change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There

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are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as

:18:45.:18:50.

a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will

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leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before

:18:56.:19:00.

Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I

:19:01.:19:03.

would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary

:19:04.:19:08.

campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving

:19:09.:19:12.

the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like

:19:13.:19:16.

of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon

:19:17.:19:19.

of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far

:19:20.:19:26.

almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you

:19:27.:19:37.

would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and

:19:38.:19:44.

pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him

:19:45.:19:48.

that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged.

:19:49.:19:55.

The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was

:19:56.:19:59.

extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in

:20:00.:20:04.

the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair

:20:05.:20:13.

kick of the ball. In newspapers I would settle for no editorial line

:20:14.:20:16.

and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish

:20:17.:20:20.

Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets,

:20:21.:20:26.

certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in

:20:27.:20:36.

Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum

:20:37.:20:41.

wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that

:20:42.:20:46.

still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal

:20:47.:20:50.

view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK

:20:51.:20:55.

moved out of the European Union for example, that would be the sort of

:20:56.:20:58.

circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and

:20:59.:21:02.

I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am

:21:03.:21:08.

just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally

:21:09.:21:12.

shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?

:21:13.:21:18.

You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that

:21:19.:21:21.

essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants

:21:22.:21:26.

to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that

:21:27.:21:29.

because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this

:21:30.:21:34.

and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are

:21:35.:21:38.

frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority

:21:39.:21:41.

in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an

:21:42.:21:46.

irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is

:21:47.:21:52.

movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something

:21:53.:21:55.

cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I

:21:56.:21:58.

think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It

:21:59.:22:04.

was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,

:22:05.:22:09.

effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and

:22:10.:22:15.

David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about

:22:16.:22:22.

the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that

:22:23.:22:29.

matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you

:22:30.:22:35.

advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or

:22:36.:22:40.

her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader

:22:41.:22:47.

brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very

:22:48.:22:52.

favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined

:22:53.:22:59.

since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in

:23:00.:23:02.

the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity

:23:03.:23:14.

for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would

:23:15.:23:18.

repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First

:23:19.:23:24.

Minister of Scotland. On Friday coming back to the north-east of

:23:25.:23:27.

Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --

:23:28.:23:34.

substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my

:23:35.:23:38.

head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last

:23:39.:23:47.

line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not

:23:48.:23:54.

seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the

:23:55.:23:58.

Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?

:23:59.:24:03.

What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is

:24:04.:24:10.

dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose

:24:11.:24:13.

to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a

:24:14.:24:18.

constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line

:24:19.:24:21.

politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn t do

:24:22.:24:25.

it properly, I am sure they did But I love it. You get distilled wisdom

:24:26.:24:32.

from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your

:24:33.:24:35.

feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to

:24:36.:24:38.

people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of

:24:39.:24:43.

Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes

:24:44.:24:55.

Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the

:24:56.:25:03.

independence referendum is over the next big electoral test is a general

:25:04.:25:07.

election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be

:25:08.:25:13.

talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men

:25:14.:25:17.

and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday

:25:18.:25:21.

Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the

:25:22.:25:26.

Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates

:25:27.:25:29.

say that the level of public spending during their last period of

:25:30.:25:33.

office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise

:25:34.:25:38.

taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On

:25:39.:25:42.

immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too

:25:43.:25:47.

high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates

:25:48.:25:51.

believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough.

:25:52.:25:55.

Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the

:25:56.:26:01.

candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in

:26:02.:26:04.

five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change

:26:05.:26:10.

of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came

:26:11.:26:19.

in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview.

:26:20.:26:23.

Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think

:26:24.:26:30.

I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't

:26:31.:26:33.

think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right I

:26:34.:26:37.

think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many

:26:38.:26:41.

of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next

:26:42.:26:45.

generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your

:26:46.:26:48.

viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they

:26:49.:26:52.

can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the

:26:53.:26:56.

public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want

:26:57.:27:00.

to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they

:27:01.:27:03.

don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap

:27:04.:27:06.

Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party

:27:07.:27:11.

policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our

:27:12.:27:15.

policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over

:27:16.:27:19.

?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that

:27:20.:27:22.

enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk

:27:23.:27:30.

to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns

:27:31.:27:34.

about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,

:27:35.:27:37.

yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they

:27:38.:27:41.

take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural

:27:42.:27:45.

nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't

:27:46.:27:48.

think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's

:27:49.:27:54.

not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You

:27:55.:28:00.

described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you

:28:01.:28:04.

that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions

:28:05.:28:09.

that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don t

:28:10.:28:12.

think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the

:28:13.:28:17.

heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,

:28:18.:28:21.

radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy It

:28:22.:28:25.

isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will

:28:26.:28:35.

have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general

:28:36.:28:39.

election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them.

:28:40.:28:43.

I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They

:28:44.:28:49.

are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a

:28:50.:28:53.

small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's

:28:54.:28:57.

pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or

:28:58.:29:01.

wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour

:29:02.:29:05.

is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old

:29:06.:29:13.

or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great

:29:14.:29:17.

country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can

:29:18.:29:22.

achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are

:29:23.:29:25.

not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of

:29:26.:29:29.

their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off.

:29:30.:29:33.

Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we

:29:34.:29:36.

are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you

:29:37.:29:40.

want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between

:29:41.:29:43.

Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next

:29:44.:29:53.

government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that

:29:54.:29:55.

the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them

:29:56.:29:58.

think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates.

:29:59.:30:03.

Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly

:30:04.:30:09.

representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member

:30:10.:30:13.

of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here

:30:14.:30:15.

to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members.

:30:16.:30:19.

Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it

:30:20.:30:25.

should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help

:30:26.:30:28.

create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories

:30:29.:30:34.

we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have

:30:35.:30:38.

trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees

:30:39.:30:42.

to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or

:30:43.:30:46.

bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the

:30:47.:30:50.

tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's

:30:51.:30:58.

turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional

:30:59.:31:02.

conversation where you have to discuss whether English people

:31:03.:31:04.

voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions

:31:05.:31:09.

and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective,

:31:10.:31:12.

we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying

:31:13.:31:21.

rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is

:31:22.:31:26.

the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where

:31:27.:31:29.

people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers

:31:30.:31:32.

talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point

:31:33.:31:38.

you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to

:31:39.:31:42.

vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you

:31:43.:31:47.

see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is

:31:48.:31:51.

an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so

:31:52.:31:55.

simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British

:31:56.:31:58.

constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of

:31:59.:32:05.

Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the

:32:06.:32:10.

transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In

:32:11.:32:14.

Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote

:32:15.:32:17.

on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different

:32:18.:32:21.

votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not

:32:22.:32:25.

necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in

:32:26.:32:28.

Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I

:32:29.:32:33.

think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy

:32:34.:32:38.

in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say,

:32:39.:32:42.

Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to

:32:43.:32:45.

now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue

:32:46.:32:49.

of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in

:32:50.:32:54.

bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland.

:32:55.:32:58.

What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give

:32:59.:33:01.

you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a

:33:02.:33:07.

rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and

:33:08.:33:10.

there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has

:33:11.:33:16.

vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell

:33:17.:33:20.

us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme

:33:21.:33:24.

right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on

:33:25.:33:28.

tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course.

:33:29.:33:32.

Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable

:33:33.:33:37.

future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending

:33:38.:33:41.

for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many

:33:42.:33:44.

of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said

:33:45.:33:50.

that in terms of looking at go - local government spending playing

:33:51.:33:53.

out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has

:33:54.:33:57.

done which is having already deprived communities having money

:33:58.:33:59.

taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We

:34:00.:34:04.

accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?

:34:05.:34:10.

There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to

:34:11.:34:15.

do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm

:34:16.:34:21.

not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --

:34:22.:34:24.

government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which

:34:25.:34:31.

is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in

:34:32.:34:34.

Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why is that fair Labour politician? We

:34:35.:34:40.

have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,

:34:41.:34:44.

you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure

:34:45.:34:47.

necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this

:34:48.:34:52.

debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I

:34:53.:34:55.

want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The

:34:56.:35:00.

unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of

:35:01.:35:04.

the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up

:35:05.:35:07.

different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against

:35:08.:35:11.

what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we

:35:12.:35:14.

shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the

:35:15.:35:18.

minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which

:35:19.:35:23.

would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five

:35:24.:35:28.

years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back

:35:29.:35:35.

in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I

:35:36.:35:41.

can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we

:35:42.:35:47.

have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if

:35:48.:35:50.

people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income

:35:51.:35:54.

tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in

:35:55.:35:58.

tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm

:35:59.:36:02.

not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid

:36:03.:36:07.

workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the

:36:08.:36:11.

payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they

:36:12.:36:16.

get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our

:36:17.:36:21.

proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at

:36:22.:36:24.

the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep I

:36:25.:36:33.

cannot give you an exact figure Why don't you give me an exact figure if

:36:34.:36:37.

you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest

:36:38.:36:40.

paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down

:36:41.:36:43.

this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 %

:36:44.:36:50.

and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I

:36:51.:36:54.

don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just

:36:55.:36:59.

don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out

:37:00.:37:03.

policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies

:37:04.:37:07.

before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their

:37:08.:37:09.

pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are

:37:10.:37:12.

also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as

:37:13.:37:17.

well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering

:37:18.:37:21.

great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge

:37:22.:37:23.

number it's still not delivering for a huge

:37:24.:37:28.

The status quo is not an option And even joining me. Twice in three

:37:29.:37:31.

days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,

:37:32.:37:35.

not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're

:37:36.:37:37.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland

:37:38.:37:40.

who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes,

:37:41.:37:42.

we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing

:37:43.:37:47.

Labour as their conference starts First though,

:37:48.:37:50.

the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to

:37:51.:37:53.

the local part of the progr`mme The no vote in the Scottish

:37:54.:38:02.

referendum, promises to change how we're governed here,

:38:03.:38:06.

and there're plenty of ideas being We'll discuss those later,

:38:07.:38:08.

and ask could Saint Edmund, the last King of East Angli`,

:38:09.:38:11.

help us forge a regional iddntity? At this particular moment when we

:38:12.:38:25.

are thinking about nationalhsm and England, we need to remind ourselves

:38:26.:38:29.

that the word England comes from the word Anglia.

:38:30.:38:31.

Of course, because Scotland voted no, it meant parliament was not

:38:32.:38:33.

recalled and the Labour Party has been able to gather in Manchester

:38:34.:38:36.

And a key policy to be disctssed is the party's plans to transform

:38:37.:38:41.

At the forefront of Labour's drive for part re`nationalisation is

:38:42.:38:47.

the east coast mainline, which runs through Stevenagd and

:38:48.:38:50.

Peterborough and which they believe should remain in public hands.

:38:51.:38:54.

Good morning from Manchester where the rdgional

:38:55.:39:00.

Ed Miliband dropped into their eve of conference recdption

:39:01.:39:05.

last night and told them th`t the route to Labour being back hn power

:39:06.:39:09.

This election is ours to win, he said, but we must keep working

:39:10.:39:15.

Labour has eight dozen key seats in the region.

:39:16.:39:27.

This conference is all about highlighting policies which will

:39:28.:39:29.

We've had his announcement about the minimum wage todax but

:39:30.:39:43.

There are many Labour candidates, in Norfolk, Milton Keynes and Peter

:39:44.:39:51.

Bradshaw openly calling for full renationalisation of the rahlways.

:39:52.:39:54.

The party leadership will not go that far but they have come up with

:39:55.:39:59.

a form of partial renationalisation. They want to see companies taking

:40:00.:40:06.

over franchises. So, can it work? In a moment, Labour's case. But, first,

:40:07.:40:12.

isn't there an argument for keeping privatisation? This is how ht used

:40:13.:40:22.

to be back in the 80s, or this is what the adverts want us to believe.

:40:23.:40:27.

Commuters, bound for the office The reality was very different. British

:40:28.:40:34.

rail felt tired and dated, with old rolling stock, poor punctuality and

:40:35.:40:40.

very expensive to run. The dntrance port secretary, John MacGregor, set

:40:41.:40:45.

about planning its privatis`tion. It is the right way to have an

:40:46.:40:48.

effective railway system. Wd have seen it happen in other countries.

:40:49.:40:57.

Then you see big improvements. There is a growing body of opinion within

:40:58.:41:02.

the Labour Party that privatisation hasn't delivered what it promised

:41:03.:41:06.

and it is time to make some changes. But there is also a lot of dvidence

:41:07.:41:10.

that privatisation has been very good for the railways, and partly

:41:11.:41:15.

re`nationalising some franchises would be costly, confusing, and

:41:16.:41:21.

wouldn't make much difference. Six rail franchises now operate across

:41:22.:41:25.

our region. A major study conducted last year found that since

:41:26.:41:29.

privatisation, things have hmproved, not just a butt across the country.

:41:30.:41:34.

Not all of the measures likd punctuality, frequency of sdrvices,

:41:35.:41:38.

customer satisfaction, but `ll of those are up. On a broad range of

:41:39.:41:43.

measures, it's been a success. Passenger journeys are up 4$ every

:41:44.:41:50.

year before privatisation it was 1.7%. Satisfaction levels h`ve

:41:51.:41:55.

climbed from 76% to 85%. Thd amount of rolling stock is up 19%. Making

:41:56.:42:00.

companies bid to run a railway line has driven up standards. Thdre are

:42:01.:42:05.

performance regimes in Herod in the franchise documents, which hs

:42:06.:42:09.

everything from punctuality, to the level of graffiti and litter on the

:42:10.:42:12.

trains. They have to abide by those and if they don't, there ard

:42:13.:42:17.

significant penalties. Finally, there are committed obligathons in

:42:18.:42:21.

the bid. Copyright about wh`t you will do, the government will hold

:42:22.:42:25.

you to those obligations. The amount of money generated by the r`il

:42:26.:42:30.

companies for the government to reinvest in new track has qtadrupled

:42:31.:42:33.

since privatisation. The fr`nchises also contribute to rolling stock.

:42:34.:42:39.

MPs are campaigning for multi`million pound improvelents to

:42:40.:42:42.

the region's rail network and say taxpayers could never put stch a

:42:43.:42:46.

bill. What happens when unaccompanied takes on a fr`nchise

:42:47.:42:49.

is essentially they put up the money to get things like new carrhages and

:42:50.:42:54.

that is what we need partictlar on the Norwich to London line. We need

:42:55.:42:58.

that investment coming in to get us a better railway. The actual money

:42:59.:43:03.

comes from the operator signing up to run the next franchise. Not only

:43:04.:43:08.

is it important that they m`ke that investment, that operator, but it is

:43:09.:43:13.

also important this proceeds to time. They do points to the success

:43:14.:43:17.

of the East Coast Main Line, a failing franchise which has done

:43:18.:43:21.

well in temporary public ownership, as proof the public sector can do a

:43:22.:43:25.

better job. It wants to see it publicly run company being `llowed

:43:26.:43:30.

to bid for franchises alongside the commercial sector, a sort of partial

:43:31.:43:35.

renationalisation. This is lodelled thinking because it is actu`lly

:43:36.:43:39.

quite a palaver to bid for one of these trench rises. It might cost

:43:40.:43:45.

?10 million. Which, if the state owned franchisee, that monex will be

:43:46.:43:53.

wasted. It would be simpler to say let the franchises run out, we will

:43:54.:43:57.

take them back in`house and recreate a kind of British rail. This week, a

:43:58.:44:03.

new company took over the rtnning of the old First Capital Connect

:44:04.:44:06.

franchise. Passengers didn't notice much difference on day one. 17 years

:44:07.:44:11.

after privatisation, there hs still a need to improve the region's rail

:44:12.:44:16.

services. The government believes franchising is still the best way

:44:17.:44:36.

forward. Earlier in the week I asked Mary Craegh why change now. People

:44:37.:44:45.

are to side. They were paxing ?6,000 a year in 2010 and in January

:44:46.:44:53.

2015, season ticket holders will be paying ?7,660 a year. Just for the

:44:54.:44:57.

privilege of getting to work in London. In that time, down to

:44:58.:45:00.

government incompetence, thdy will have seen no `` improvement in

:45:01.:45:05.

rolling stock, little improvement in train running time, and there has

:45:06.:45:10.

been a series of things running on this line which means that there

:45:11.:45:18.

hasn't been a lot of investlent in this land. There has been a lot of

:45:19.:45:23.

dissatisfaction in that lind and Chloe Smith would agree with you.

:45:24.:45:28.

But if the private sector is not involved in that line, wherd is that

:45:29.:45:33.

money going to come from poor investment? This is a heavily

:45:34.:45:37.

subsidised franchise so we want to see better value on the lind and we

:45:38.:45:41.

think there are plans to brhng together track and trains in a new

:45:42.:45:44.

overarching organisation, to plan the sort of investment we nded, to

:45:45.:45:49.

plan the rolling stock and better train carriages on the line, this is

:45:50.:45:54.

what the country needs, not another series of franchise extensions and

:45:55.:45:57.

poor value for money for passengers and taxpayers. Let's talk about

:45:58.:46:03.

Labour's policy. What do yot actually want to do? Are yot in or

:46:04.:46:07.

out? With you renationalise the whole system, or not? We want to

:46:08.:46:14.

bring together Network Rail and the passenger rail organisations into

:46:15.:46:18.

one body that actually looks at the railway as a single hole. I am still

:46:19.:46:23.

not clear what your policy hs. It's not just me. We heard from other

:46:24.:46:29.

people. They think it is also a bit of a model. We are trying to go

:46:30.:46:34.

beyond the ideological debate of public versus private and h`ve a

:46:35.:46:37.

railway that puts interest of passengers first, not profits. We

:46:38.:46:42.

want to have a cap on rail fares. We want to an upper directly operated

:46:43.:46:46.

railway to bid at games the private sector operators and we want to

:46:47.:46:50.

devolve rail services to local communities to run them in the

:46:51.:46:53.

interest of the economic ardas they serve. He spent some time in this

:46:54.:46:58.

interview telling us the down point of privatisation. Why not go the

:46:59.:47:03.

whole hog and renationalise our railway which is what a lot of

:47:04.:47:08.

Labour MPs would like to sed you do. There are many people who would like

:47:09.:47:11.

to see the railways renationalise but we have to be aware this is a

:47:12.:47:16.

time. The financial crisis for whoever winds the next election And

:47:17.:47:21.

we have to make sure we are getting absolute best value on the railways

:47:22.:47:24.

for the taxpayers. Isn't thhs a question of being a little bit brief

:47:25.:47:29.

here and doing it? What we `re proposing is brave. It goes against

:47:30.:47:35.

the old left and right debates, it looks at the passenger and their

:47:36.:47:39.

journey. That is why the rahlway needs to be, not looking at the

:47:40.:47:43.

vested interest of the railway companies, not going back to the old

:47:44.:47:47.

days of British rail. We nedd a railway fit for the 20th century and

:47:48.:47:51.

I'm afraid under this government that has been sadly lacking. I

:47:52.:47:54.

started talking about passengers with you, let's finish with the

:47:55.:48:01.

passengers. How will you allay fears? I can hear people saxing

:48:02.:48:05.

oh, my goodness, this is gohng to take us back to the bad old stays of

:48:06.:48:10.

British rail. We are going to have confusion, chaos, strikes. What do

:48:11.:48:15.

you say to those people? Wh`t I would say is that we are not trying

:48:16.:48:22.

to go back to the old days of British rails but to go to ` new

:48:23.:48:29.

21st`century. Anyone on a train in East Anglia would see that hs the

:48:30.:48:33.

future of rail transport. M`ry Craegh, thank you very much.

:48:34.:48:35.

So let's meet our guests, Luton MP Gavin Shuker for L`bour

:48:36.:48:38.

and George Freeman, the Conservative MP for Mid Norfolk

:48:39.:48:40.

Gavin Shuker, I am still not clear about Labour's policy, are xou? I

:48:41.:48:49.

am, actually. Essentially, what we are saying is we have a fragmented

:48:50.:48:53.

railway system at the moment. For a lot of people, their daily commute

:48:54.:48:58.

is a grind. Why can't we allow the public sector to compete alongside

:48:59.:49:01.

the private sector, as they have done with East Coast, with brilliant

:49:02.:49:10.

performance. We think banning the private sector from the railways is

:49:11.:49:13.

wrong. That is what the Torhes are pursuing, and it is what we will

:49:14.:49:17.

reverse in government. You can get away from it, George Freeman, the

:49:18.:49:21.

trains have been appalling fists and very expensive. More and more people

:49:22.:49:26.

are using the trains, they `re full. This is a really, really silly

:49:27.:49:32.

policy and went somebody it is an expert says things like that, you

:49:33.:49:37.

are in a mess. More and mord passengers are using the rahlways,

:49:38.:49:41.

higher volumes, higher satisfaction and we have embarked on a ?38

:49:42.:49:46.

billion programme on rail investment. The biggest since the

:49:47.:49:50.

Victorian age. You have no `nswer to how we invest in a modern r`ilway

:49:51.:49:58.

network. My daily commute, for example, is First Capital Connect.

:49:59.:50:02.

Now the new train operating company. The reasons why the standard is

:50:03.:50:07.

coming up is because the government is investing. I would prefer that if

:50:08.:50:12.

there is value in that franchise, I would prefer the value coming back

:50:13.:50:16.

to government. I would have the private sector and public sdctor to

:50:17.:50:21.

compete along the same rules. Let's look at East Coast mainline. ?2 0

:50:22.:50:25.

million for the Exchequer, why not leave it where it is? A couple of

:50:26.:50:30.

reasons. If you look at it, and off`peak return fare is twice as

:50:31.:50:34.

expensive as the West Coast. Frequency is down and puncttality is

:50:35.:50:39.

down. That service is getting worse in public ownership and the idea we

:50:40.:50:47.

will go back to the `` to the old days of British rock is silly. There

:50:48.:50:52.

were strikes, bad food, expdnsive. You've got to ask a question, where

:50:53.:50:56.

will you find the investment if you nationalise it? If you don't think

:50:57.:51:02.

there is a problem currentlx on RL or system, if you don't think that

:51:03.:51:07.

we are more expensive than on the continent... I do, but you have to

:51:08.:51:13.

ask the question, where will you get money from? More debt and more tax.

:51:14.:51:18.

I wanted to ask both of you, were you up through the night on

:51:19.:51:22.

Thursday? I started and I fhnished, but I went to sleep in the liddle. I

:51:23.:51:27.

went to sleep confident the people of Scotland would do the right

:51:28.:51:28.

thing. Well, in the end, it was a decided

:51:29.:51:30.

no to independence from the people of Scotland but their vote hs set to

:51:31.:51:34.

have a direct impact on us here David Cameron has pledged to deliver

:51:35.:51:37.

a new and fair devolution sdttlement for the whole of the UK,

:51:38.:51:40.

and that includes us. But how will more power be delivered

:51:41.:51:43.

here in the east We have ruled ourselves before,

:51:44.:51:45.

even if it was centuries ago, In the 850s, King Edmund ruled

:51:46.:51:49.

the East of England. The region was independent,

:51:50.:51:54.

rich and powerful. Rather than being English,

:51:55.:51:59.

people here considered themselves This statue of King Edmund here in

:52:00.:52:02.

Bury Saint Edmunds was commhssioned in 1974 to mark the unification

:52:03.:52:08.

of East and West Suffolk. For his part, this 9th centtry

:52:09.:52:14.

East Anglian King was remembered for his sense of justice, f`irness,

:52:15.:52:19.

his unwavering passion Imagine no running water,

:52:20.:52:24.

no electricity. People were much more local,

:52:25.:52:31.

lived much more locally. That whole thing of the thrdat

:52:32.:52:38.

of a Viking invasion, All those things led people

:52:39.:52:41.

to live much more localised. Captured by Vikings at Hoxon in

:52:42.:52:53.

Suffolk, this is where the country's last ruler of an independent

:52:54.:52:56.

regional kingdom met his brttal end. Of course, at this particul`r

:52:57.:52:59.

moment, when we are thinking about nationalism and England, we need to

:53:00.:53:01.

remind ourselves that the word So, in one sense,

:53:02.:53:04.

we are where England begins. Self`determination

:53:05.:53:09.

is very important. However, to say that the Angles are

:53:10.:53:20.

entitled to some sort of devolution begs the question what other groups

:53:21.:53:23.

are entitled to devolution? Devolution to the regions is not

:53:24.:53:29.

on the agenda. Which seems rather absurd bdcause,

:53:30.:53:32.

as far as I can see, It could be in places like Bedford.

:53:33.:53:35.

It's like that. I don't think we have much

:53:36.:53:42.

association with the countids Although more powers for thd East

:53:43.:53:45.

are broadly being welcomed, there are many questions ovdr how it

:53:46.:53:50.

could be devolved. We should also, of course,

:53:51.:53:54.

decentralise much more to local government,

:53:55.:54:02.

much more to the county of Dssex, to towns and cities like Chelmsford,

:54:03.:54:04.

and Ipswich, and Cambridge, and also to the great cities `

:54:05.:54:07.

London, Manchester, Norwich. We should be celebrating

:54:08.:54:12.

and empowering local governlent This referendum vote,

:54:13.:54:17.

very high turnout, narrow ddfeat for independence, everyone `greeing

:54:18.:54:20.

more powers to Scotland. That has got to mean more powers

:54:21.:54:23.

for localities in England as well. It could be very good news

:54:24.:54:26.

for us here in the East. So, no matter what route we take,

:54:27.:54:29.

the destination should lead to local people to having

:54:30.:54:33.

a greater say over how they live. Sounds like a great idea, btt how do

:54:34.:54:50.

we deliver it? The first thhng you did was scrap the regional

:54:51.:54:53.

assemblies. They were a waste of money and didn't achieve enough The

:54:54.:54:58.

big point David Cameron has made is that we have given Scotland a

:54:59.:55:01.

devolution package and I thhnk that has been the right thing to do.

:55:02.:55:05.

Wales has an independent assembly and Northern Ireland, too. We need

:55:06.:55:10.

to talk about the Midlothian question. Gavin's party when they

:55:11.:55:17.

were in power... It is time we looked to the English questhon. Do

:55:18.:55:26.

we deliver it, Gavin Shuker to the cities because we don't havd many

:55:27.:55:32.

cities. Luton isn't a city. Sadly, but we are working on it. I would

:55:33.:55:37.

devolve much more down to local communities. Every government

:55:38.:55:41.

pledges devolution and then they take the other approach. I think

:55:42.:55:44.

devolution down to the most appropriate level, the most local

:55:45.:55:47.

level is the right one, and I think people will look at what has

:55:48.:55:51.

happened in Scotland and David Cameron's rushed announcement that

:55:52.:55:56.

he didn't tell other party leaders about. What about East Anglha's

:55:57.:56:03.

identity? We heard in that film we have difficulties. We are E`st and

:56:04.:56:09.

West, not gelling. It is trhcky It is, and we need a package of

:56:10.:56:15.

constitutional reforms. If we don't get the image question right, it

:56:16.:56:20.

will be illegitimate. I think one of Labour's good idea was elected

:56:21.:56:24.

mayors and cities. We need stronger leadership there. The north`east was

:56:25.:56:31.

given a big raspberry under John Prescott. The regional government

:56:32.:56:37.

isn't the answer. We can work together in East Anglia and we

:56:38.:56:42.

should. We have done locallx is back to neighbourhoods and towns and

:56:43.:56:44.

parishes. Let's talk about the time frame. Gavin Shuker, Ed Milhband

:56:45.:56:50.

said it is important but let's do it in the right way. But sounds like

:56:51.:56:55.

he's putting the brakes on things. We need to consult people in the

:56:56.:57:01.

country and work out what wd want to do. I have to say, the ironx of

:57:02.:57:05.

spending the last three years watching the zombie governmdnt doing

:57:06.:57:09.

very little and then in the final six they are going to throw all the

:57:10.:57:13.

pieces up in the air is not wasted on me. That is going to hold up

:57:14.:57:17.

getting power in the east, which is said is said is a good thing. You

:57:18.:57:21.

can do much greater devoluthon right now to local authorities. The truth

:57:22.:57:28.

is... Everyone is scared because there is a general election coming

:57:29.:57:30.

up and they know they will never form a government without Scottish

:57:31.:57:35.

MPs. That is not true! That is why they ask aired. Let me just ask you,

:57:36.:57:44.

should we discussed properlx? Should we recall Parliament? We should be

:57:45.:57:52.

discussing fairness giving devolution to Scotland becatse

:57:53.:57:52.

England deserves better. Of course, the referendum h`s

:57:53.:57:54.

been the big story this week. But plenty of other politic`l news,

:57:55.:57:57.

too. Here's our 60 second round

:57:58.:57:59.

up with Deborah McGurran. Hundreds of jobs are under threat

:58:00.:58:06.

at Group Lotus in Norfolk. The company, which builds

:58:07.:58:09.

high`performance sports cars, could shed a third of its workforce

:58:10.:58:12.

as part of restructuring pl`ns. We want to do everything we can to

:58:13.:58:17.

make sure that the end numbdr, the actual number of job losses

:58:18.:58:20.

is as low as it possibly can be Day centres in Northamptonshire

:58:21.:58:23.

including the Afro`Caribbean They now have to apply to

:58:24.:58:26.

the council for money You have this in the pipeline

:58:27.:58:32.

for closing. Right in the middle

:58:33.:58:37.

of Wellingborough! Where are these people going to go,

:58:38.:58:40.

for God's sake? The blame game over the King's Lynn

:58:41.:58:44.

incinerator continued this week when the Public Accounts Colmittee

:58:45.:58:48.

said DEFRA's withdrawal of funding had left Norfolk taxpayers hn the

:58:49.:58:52.

lurch to the tune of ?34 million. We can ill afford to throw this sort

:58:53.:58:58.

of money away, and we are h`ving to throw it away, effectively,

:58:59.:59:02.

because the government can't make up So, a pretty unsettling week for

:59:03.:59:18.

those working at Group Lotus. We heard Richard Bacon they're saying

:59:19.:59:22.

everything must be done, but practically what can the government

:59:23.:59:26.

do to try to bring those potential 325 job losses down? I am working

:59:27.:59:33.

closely with Richard on this and with events. I'm making surd we are

:59:34.:59:39.

doing everything. We have a reasonable track record when these

:59:40.:59:41.

restructures take place. Whdn we talk to the company many jobs can

:59:42.:59:48.

be. The truth is that in thhs area we have two Formula One teals in

:59:49.:59:52.

Norfolk. Northamptonshire is a global centre for Formula One, we

:59:53.:59:57.

have a great story to be proud of. Many people will recycle into the

:59:58.:00:02.

automotive economy. This nedd not be a disaster. Gavin Shuker, it was

:00:03.:00:08.

almost a disaster for foxhole in Luton. But it came back frol the

:00:09.:00:14.

brink. Any essence for Lotus? In 2001 when we lost the car plant

:00:15.:00:20.

10,000 jobs that was. But wd allowed people to retrain and get into new

:00:21.:00:24.

jobs. Peter Mandelson, under the last Labour government, these guys

:00:25.:00:28.

in government as well, therd is a strong story about automotive that

:00:29.:00:32.

has meant that places like GM have decided to reinvest in Luton. We are

:00:33.:00:36.

the last place to make whitd vans here. The Ashes of the car hndustry

:00:37.:00:44.

in the 70s, we rebuilt the automotive industry. Thank xou both

:00:45.:00:50.

very much. We're back next week at the same time for the other

:00:51.:00:56.

the Conservative mayor's policy No more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back

:00:57.:00:58.

to you. Welcome back the to Labour

:00:59.:01:06.

conference, where we're joined by the latest hot new stand-up

:01:07.:01:08.

comedian on the Manchester circuit. I speak of course of former Deputy

:01:09.:01:12.

Prime Minister John Prescott. In between giving tub-thumping

:01:13.:01:17.

speeches to rally the party faithful this week,

:01:18.:01:19.

he's appearing at the Comedy Store. He was also of course the man

:01:20.:01:22.

behind the last attempt to solve Our political panel is with me as

:01:23.:01:35.

well. John, we have got Scottish votes for Scottish laws, and more

:01:36.:01:38.

Scottish votes for Scottish laws, why not English votes for English

:01:39.:01:43.

laws? That's an English parliament in a major constitutional change and

:01:44.:01:46.

that is what has started. I certainly don't agree with that I

:01:47.:01:50.

campaign for powers to be given to the regions. When I first tested it

:01:51.:01:54.

in the Northeast, I lost. Why? Because they said they were not the

:01:55.:01:57.

same powers you are giving to Scotland. So, basically, we must do

:01:58.:02:04.

that, decentralised, not just with a Westminster Parliament. As you know,

:02:05.:02:10.

in 32 years I produce the alternative. You've kept that for 32

:02:11.:02:15.

years? I took it off my shelf and everybody was talking about it now,

:02:16.:02:19.

but they weren't in 1982. This was my five plan. 200 meetings all

:02:20.:02:24.

around the country -- five-year plan. You wrote this morning, not 35

:02:25.:02:31.

years ago, that this was a plot to turn Westminster into a Tory

:02:32.:02:34.

dominated English parliament. But if that is how England had voted, it's

:02:35.:02:40.

not a plot, it's democracy. You can get reform in a more federal

:02:41.:02:44.

structure, and even English parliament does fit into the federal

:02:45.:02:47.

structure and that is what the Liberals say, but you need a fairer

:02:48.:02:51.

representation. It might be quite radical, and we could get rid of the

:02:52.:02:55.

Lord's, and have representation in the region there. It can't be done

:02:56.:03:01.

in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's assuming he has been sold out, and

:03:02.:03:06.

it was less than a week ago they remain the announcement. We have to

:03:07.:03:11.

get it carried out will stop but don't connect it to the English

:03:12.:03:14.

parliament that fixes it in their favour. It may be pretty low

:03:15.:03:19.

politics from David Cameron to come up with something that was not in

:03:20.:03:25.

the vowel -- a bow on the front page of the daily record, but if they do

:03:26.:03:29.

not agree with what he said at the time of the general election, he

:03:30.:03:32.

will say two in which voters, if you want real protection in England

:03:33.:03:36.

vote Conservative, and if you want Scottish MPs deciding on your level

:03:37.:03:40.

of taxation, vote Labour. He is scared to death of UKIP may have

:03:41.:03:45.

been saying it for a while. In the constitutional changes have to see

:03:46.:03:48.

what is fair and equitable, the same with the Barnett fallen -- formula.

:03:49.:03:52.

But what you have to do is get a fair system. It takes time to

:03:53.:03:56.

discuss it. I was doing a 32 years ago and nobody wanted to know. We

:03:57.:04:01.

had better start a debate, and don't mixed up the constitutional type of

:04:02.:04:05.

English parliament with what we are promising in Scotland. It is about

:04:06.:04:10.

trust and politics. So the turnout of the north-east regional assembly

:04:11.:04:15.

and they voted against it. The turnout that the police and crime

:04:16.:04:19.

commissioners was low. How'd you get people interested in the process and

:04:20.:04:23.

it doesn't feel like a conversation in smoky rooms and you go back to

:04:24.:04:26.

British people and tell them what you decided? If you look at the

:04:27.:04:31.

turnout in Scotland whether they were interested in, now it is

:04:32.:04:34.

phenomenally interesting. It is about real power, having real

:04:35.:04:37.

influence. What they said to me in the north-east, they said we know

:04:38.:04:41.

you have an idea for devolution and you will give us assemblies but it

:04:42.:04:44.

doesn't have the power of Scotland, but now we are talking about

:04:45.:04:49.

equity, similar distribution of power and similar resources. The

:04:50.:04:52.

English people are entitled to that. They have been robbed of it for too

:04:53.:04:57.

long. Labour has long struggled with what it should do over devolving

:04:58.:05:01.

power to the regions and you came up with regional assemblies. Ed

:05:02.:05:05.

Miliband has a different idea of city regions. Aren't they the same

:05:06.:05:08.

idea of yours but without a democratic accountability? Can we

:05:09.:05:12.

really trust the greater region of Manchester or Birmingham to deliver

:05:13.:05:16.

if there is not the same kind of democratic link with the people I

:05:17.:05:22.

live in whole, and it stops on the boundary of the Pennines -- the city

:05:23.:05:27.

of Hull. We have city regions from Labour because I failed in the

:05:28.:05:30.

north-east to get the assemblies in, and now we have to look at those

:05:31.:05:35.

options. Do you work through city regions? Mainly in the north, I

:05:36.:05:38.

might say. Even the federal structure they talk about my be in

:05:39.:05:42.

the North or Midlands with Birmingham, but there are a number

:05:43.:05:46.

of options and that is where I believe that what the White Paper

:05:47.:05:49.

should do is to put those options in. Instead of having to put them

:05:50.:05:53.

together, state what you want to do in the English regions. Leave it to

:05:54.:05:57.

the legislation, which is what will happen with the Scottish, and once

:05:58.:06:01.

you've agreed it, you do it after. You have to start the radical debate

:06:02.:06:06.

about giving the English regions, not centralised in London, but

:06:07.:06:11.

decentralised. Do you need to have a separate English parliament?

:06:12.:06:13.

Wouldn't it just satisfy the English if you simply said to MPs, when it's

:06:14.:06:18.

in English matter in the House of Commons, stop interfering? I would

:06:19.:06:23.

disagree with that. I would say put the option in the White Paper. The

:06:24.:06:28.

White Paper seems to be talking about Scotland. If you don't put the

:06:29.:06:31.

commitments to what you want to do with the English regions, people

:06:32.:06:36.

might say I'm not supporting that. Put the framework in the White

:06:37.:06:39.

Paper, but a different timetable. Devolution in this country has been

:06:40.:06:43.

to a different timetable, whether it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start

:06:44.:06:47.

looking fundamentally at it and the Labour Party should be leading the

:06:48.:06:54.

debate. Let's come the no campaign lost Glasgow. The cradle of British

:06:55.:06:59.

socialism. -- let's come to something that happened with the

:07:00.:07:02.

referendum as the no campaign lost Glasgow. Is it a sign that the

:07:03.:07:05.

Labour Party are finding it hard to what -- hold on to their traditional

:07:06.:07:11.

working class vote question mark its different in Manchester. They would

:07:12.:07:14.

say it is a message about decentralisation. If we change the

:07:15.:07:23.

message a bit maybe. We have been thinking that now it is that either

:07:24.:07:27.

the Labour Party to recognise it is not the old message and old areas

:07:28.:07:32.

that will win it. I remember covering the 1997 referendum in

:07:33.:07:36.

Scotland and you gave a tub thumping speech in a big hall in Hamilton and

:07:37.:07:39.

you really connected. Obviously it was a different referendum because

:07:40.:07:43.

that was about a parliament, not independence and Alex Salmond was on

:07:44.:07:48.

your side, but you, and Ingush MP, an English minister, connected to

:07:49.:07:51.

the core Labour voters in a way that Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an

:07:52.:08:00.

English MP. You make a fair point. In the big rally, I had to point out

:08:01.:08:05.

I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on with it. What I was saying there was

:08:06.:08:11.

that I supported you, as I did for 30 odd years when Labour MPs were

:08:12.:08:15.

against any thinker Scotland. I support you, but I expect you to

:08:16.:08:19.

come in with your Scottish MPs and make sure the English get their

:08:20.:08:23.

share of the powers and resources and that is what that speech was

:08:24.:08:27.

about, and by God, it's as relevant today as it was then. I haven't got

:08:28.:08:32.

any Scottish MPs, I live in Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote?

:08:33.:08:39.

No. What would you have done? I can't tell you. You would have voted

:08:40.:08:47.

yes, come on. I'm interested. What do you want to hear from the speech

:08:48.:08:54.

by Ed Miliband? People are wondering about where Labour stands. There are

:08:55.:08:58.

many issues we have flown around, and we've done the discussion just

:08:59.:09:05.

now. What he has got to do where he started off on the minimum wage You

:09:06.:09:08.

are trying to deal with those left behind. Those are the bottom. That

:09:09.:09:13.

is the Labour message. The National Health Service is our creation and

:09:14.:09:17.

we have to say it will be saved If you can save all of these bankers

:09:18.:09:20.

with all the money and say you haven't got the money for the NHS,

:09:21.:09:24.

say where we stand. That will be the priority. The third one, housing. I

:09:25.:09:29.

have had a revolutionary idea that you can buy a house without a

:09:30.:09:33.

deposit and without the interest or paying the stamp duty, and you buy

:09:34.:09:38.

it by rent. The government gives ?150 billion guaranteed housing for

:09:39.:09:42.

up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary people who can use their rent to buy

:09:43.:09:45.

the house. It's happening in the north-east. Why are they not

:09:46.:09:50.

listening to you? You have said more to connect with ordinary people in

:09:51.:09:53.

three minutes than we will probably hear in an hour. I've been telling

:09:54.:09:58.

them, made, and we have a commission coming out. People don't want

:09:59.:10:02.

commissions, they want action. I say, I know what we do, housing

:10:03.:10:07.

health, the people. That is our language. That is why we are Labour.

:10:08.:10:13.

That a lot of people run away. I think in Glasgow, they wondered

:10:14.:10:16.

about that. If you turn up on the same three platforms, and I know

:10:17.:10:19.

it's a critical thing to say, they think in Scotland it is a coalition.

:10:20.:10:24.

I don't like coalitions. It looks like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe

:10:25.:10:29.

it was saved because Rupert Murdoch started the The Times about the

:10:30.:10:33.

polls and he couldn't even get the sun to say that they wanted. We

:10:34.:10:39.

haven't got time. I wondered how long it would take is to get to

:10:40.:10:44.

repot Murdoch. You beat the record. -- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is

:10:45.:10:49.

quite behind on the economy, and people are looking at Labour, trying

:10:50.:10:53.

to work out if they can trust you to the stewards of the economy given

:10:54.:10:59.

2010. Under Labour 's plans there is 20 billion of cuts to make in the

:11:00.:11:01.

next Parliament. Will we hear anything about that? It is about the

:11:02.:11:09.

proportion of debt to GDP. I know it sounds historic, but our debt when

:11:10.:11:13.

we came in in 1997 was a proportion of GDP, and you must know this, and

:11:14.:11:18.

that was less than Thatcher's. Why did we get done on debt? You guys

:11:19.:11:24.

run around saying a lot about it, but the fact is it was worse under

:11:25.:11:29.

Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a hero. If you look at the debt, it is

:11:30.:11:35.

still a problem. Gordon Brown did an awful lot to solve those problems,

:11:36.:11:39.

but they were still left with us. What we have to have is a sensible

:11:40.:11:43.

discussion like we had on devolution and now we are talking about

:11:44.:11:46.

finances. Let's look at the public sector debt and the price we pay. We

:11:47.:11:50.

need to be putting the record straight. The problem is they tell

:11:51.:11:54.

me, John, we have to look to the future not the past. We are getting

:11:55.:11:57.

screwed on the past and we have to change it and perhaps Gordon Brown

:11:58.:12:01.

coming in could do something. Finishing on the future, when we did

:12:02.:12:07.

a poll of the Labour candidates you were watching on the big screen

:12:08.:12:12.

when it came up that their favourite to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette

:12:13.:12:18.

Cooper, why did you shout no! That is alive. -- alive. -- that is not

:12:19.:12:27.

true. I know resistance is not strong. What did that mean?

:12:28.:12:37.

You can't get away with anything at a Conference, John. I was dropping

:12:38.:12:45.

comments them to pick up everywhere, I do not wear -- nowhere they got

:12:46.:12:52.

that one from. Good to have you back. Round of applause for former

:12:53.:12:57.

Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for today. Don't applaud them, they are

:12:58.:12:59.

useless. my guests. I'll be back here at

:13:00.:13:01.

Labour conference for the Daily 11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring

:13:02.:13:05.

you live coverage of the speech by We're here all week, and next Sunday

:13:06.:13:10.

you can find us in Birmingham for Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:11.:13:16.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:17.:13:22.

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