Browse content similar to 21/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what | :00:13. | :00:14. | |
the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for | :00:15. | :00:53. | |
Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
But what about Home Rule for England? | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
Here in the east. people who want to be Labour | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
Why Labour doesn't want rail services for passengers in this | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
And we've run our affairs bdfore, why can't we do it again? | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step | :01:32. | :01:45. | |
for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived, | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly, | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It | :02:22. | :02:31. | |
has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
they hoped would swing the vote there was nothing about English only | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. - | :02:49. | :02:57. | |
cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David | :02:58. | :02:59. | |
Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he | :03:11. | :03:21. | |
They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve | :03:53. | :03:54. | |
these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
in which bodes for English laws Even people in the Shadow Cabinet | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs, | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett | :06:13. | :06:13. | |
Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet, | :06:14. | :06:15. | |
but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland, | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial, | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher | :06:24. | :06:25. | |
in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How | :06:30. | :06:42. | |
can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto, | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There | :09:07. | :09:08. | |
is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount. | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
more federal system, we would need to look at things like the | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
devolution to Scotland, but let s deliver on promises to be English, | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
leave it there. Thank you for joining us. | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex | :11:01. | :11:02. | |
Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand | :11:06. | :11:07. | |
Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career. | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond, | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for | :11:18. | :11:39. | |
Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000 | :12:01. | :12:12. | |
and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you | :12:28. | :12:36. | |
small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could. | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence The | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the | :13:35. | :13:36. | |
official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax, | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland. | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See | :14:19. | :14:27. | |
you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist, | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So, | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader | :14:55. | :14:56. | |
gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as | :14:57. | :15:06. | |
First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
certainly have thought about it Andrew. But for most of the | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was... | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the | :15:34. | :15:41. | |
decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you | :15:42. | :15:51. | |
get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership. | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering, | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from | :16:49. | :16:50. | |
Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
to independence saw within that a reason to say, well, we can get | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
something anyway without the perceived risks that were being | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream. | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
You won Scotland's largest city There is now the prospect of more | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24 | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take | :18:10. | :18:17. | |
this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you | :19:27. | :19:37. | |
would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged. | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair | :20:05. | :20:13. | |
kick of the ball. In newspapers I would settle for no editorial line | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets, | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in | :20:27. | :20:36. | |
Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
moved out of the European Union for example, that would be the sort of | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow? | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked, | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity | :23:03. | :23:14. | |
for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
Minister of Scotland. On Friday coming back to the north-east of | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud -- | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last | :23:39. | :23:47. | |
line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons? | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn t do | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
it properly, I am sure they did But I love it. You get distilled wisdom | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes | :24:44. | :24:55. | |
Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the | :24:56. | :25:03. | |
independence referendum is over the next big electoral test is a general | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
say that the level of public spending during their last period of | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough. | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came | :26:11. | :26:19. | |
in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview. | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right I | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk | :27:23. | :27:30. | |
to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration, | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don t | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out, | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy It | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will | :28:26. | :28:35. | |
have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them. | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old | :29:06. | :29:13. | |
or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off. | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next | :29:44. | :29:53. | |
government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that | :29:54. | :29:55. | |
the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members. | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
conversation where you have to discuss whether English people | :31:03. | :31:04. | |
voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective, | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying | :31:13. | :31:21. | |
rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say, | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland. | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course. | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
that in terms of looking at go - local government spending playing | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
done which is having already deprived communities having money | :33:58. | :33:59. | |
taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well? | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend -- | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why is that fair Labour politician? We | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't, | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep I | :36:25. | :36:33. | |
cannot give you an exact figure Why don't you give me an exact figure if | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 % | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their | :37:08. | :37:09. | |
pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge | :37:22. | :37:23. | |
number it's still not delivering for a huge | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
The status quo is not an option And even joining me. Twice in three | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that, | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're | :37:36. | :37:37. | |
watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes, | :37:41. | :37:42. | |
we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
Labour as their conference starts First though, | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
the local part of the progr`mme The no vote in the Scottish | :37:54. | :38:02. | |
referendum, promises to change how we're governed here, | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
and there're plenty of ideas being We'll discuss those later, | :38:07. | :38:08. | |
and ask could Saint Edmund, the last King of East Angli`, | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
help us forge a regional iddntity? At this particular moment when we | :38:12. | :38:25. | |
are thinking about nationalhsm and England, we need to remind ourselves | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
that the word England comes from the word Anglia. | :38:30. | :38:31. | |
Of course, because Scotland voted no, it meant parliament was not | :38:32. | :38:33. | |
recalled and the Labour Party has been able to gather in Manchester | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
And a key policy to be disctssed is the party's plans to transform | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
At the forefront of Labour's drive for part re`nationalisation is | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
the east coast mainline, which runs through Stevenagd and | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
Peterborough and which they believe should remain in public hands. | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
Good morning from Manchester where the rdgional | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
Ed Miliband dropped into their eve of conference recdption | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
last night and told them th`t the route to Labour being back hn power | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
This election is ours to win, he said, but we must keep working | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
Labour has eight dozen key seats in the region. | :39:16. | :39:27. | |
This conference is all about highlighting policies which will | :39:28. | :39:29. | |
We've had his announcement about the minimum wage todax but | :39:30. | :39:43. | |
There are many Labour candidates, in Norfolk, Milton Keynes and Peter | :39:44. | :39:51. | |
Bradshaw openly calling for full renationalisation of the rahlways. | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
The party leadership will not go that far but they have come up with | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
a form of partial renationalisation. They want to see companies taking | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
over franchises. So, can it work? In a moment, Labour's case. But, first, | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
isn't there an argument for keeping privatisation? This is how ht used | :40:13. | :40:22. | |
to be back in the 80s, or this is what the adverts want us to believe. | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
Commuters, bound for the office The reality was very different. British | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
rail felt tired and dated, with old rolling stock, poor punctuality and | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
very expensive to run. The dntrance port secretary, John MacGregor, set | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
about planning its privatis`tion. It is the right way to have an | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
effective railway system. Wd have seen it happen in other countries. | :40:49. | :40:57. | |
Then you see big improvements. There is a growing body of opinion within | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
the Labour Party that privatisation hasn't delivered what it promised | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
and it is time to make some changes. But there is also a lot of dvidence | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
that privatisation has been very good for the railways, and partly | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
re`nationalising some franchises would be costly, confusing, and | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
wouldn't make much difference. Six rail franchises now operate across | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
our region. A major study conducted last year found that since | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
privatisation, things have hmproved, not just a butt across the country. | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
Not all of the measures likd punctuality, frequency of sdrvices, | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
customer satisfaction, but `ll of those are up. On a broad range of | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
measures, it's been a success. Passenger journeys are up 4$ every | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
year before privatisation it was 1.7%. Satisfaction levels h`ve | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
climbed from 76% to 85%. Thd amount of rolling stock is up 19%. Making | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
companies bid to run a railway line has driven up standards. Thdre are | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
performance regimes in Herod in the franchise documents, which hs | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
everything from punctuality, to the level of graffiti and litter on the | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
trains. They have to abide by those and if they don't, there ard | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
significant penalties. Finally, there are committed obligathons in | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
the bid. Copyright about wh`t you will do, the government will hold | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
you to those obligations. The amount of money generated by the r`il | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
companies for the government to reinvest in new track has qtadrupled | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
since privatisation. The fr`nchises also contribute to rolling stock. | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
MPs are campaigning for multi`million pound improvelents to | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
the region's rail network and say taxpayers could never put stch a | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
bill. What happens when unaccompanied takes on a fr`nchise | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
is essentially they put up the money to get things like new carrhages and | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
that is what we need partictlar on the Norwich to London line. We need | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
that investment coming in to get us a better railway. The actual money | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
comes from the operator signing up to run the next franchise. Not only | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
is it important that they m`ke that investment, that operator, but it is | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
also important this proceeds to time. They do points to the success | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
of the East Coast Main Line, a failing franchise which has done | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
well in temporary public ownership, as proof the public sector can do a | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
better job. It wants to see it publicly run company being `llowed | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
to bid for franchises alongside the commercial sector, a sort of partial | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
renationalisation. This is lodelled thinking because it is actu`lly | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
quite a palaver to bid for one of these trench rises. It might cost | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
?10 million. Which, if the state owned franchisee, that monex will be | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
wasted. It would be simpler to say let the franchises run out, we will | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
take them back in`house and recreate a kind of British rail. This week, a | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
new company took over the rtnning of the old First Capital Connect | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
franchise. Passengers didn't notice much difference on day one. 17 years | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
after privatisation, there hs still a need to improve the region's rail | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
services. The government believes franchising is still the best way | :44:17. | :44:36. | |
forward. Earlier in the week I asked Mary Craegh why change now. People | :44:37. | :44:45. | |
are to side. They were paxing ?6,000 a year in 2010 and in January | :44:46. | :44:53. | |
2015, season ticket holders will be paying ?7,660 a year. Just for the | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
privilege of getting to work in London. In that time, down to | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
government incompetence, thdy will have seen no `` improvement in | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
rolling stock, little improvement in train running time, and there has | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
been a series of things running on this line which means that there | :45:11. | :45:18. | |
hasn't been a lot of investlent in this land. There has been a lot of | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
dissatisfaction in that lind and Chloe Smith would agree with you. | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
But if the private sector is not involved in that line, wherd is that | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
money going to come from poor investment? This is a heavily | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
subsidised franchise so we want to see better value on the lind and we | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
think there are plans to brhng together track and trains in a new | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
overarching organisation, to plan the sort of investment we nded, to | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
plan the rolling stock and better train carriages on the line, this is | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
what the country needs, not another series of franchise extensions and | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
poor value for money for passengers and taxpayers. Let's talk about | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
Labour's policy. What do yot actually want to do? Are yot in or | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
out? With you renationalise the whole system, or not? We want to | :46:08. | :46:14. | |
bring together Network Rail and the passenger rail organisations into | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
one body that actually looks at the railway as a single hole. I am still | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
not clear what your policy hs. It's not just me. We heard from other | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
people. They think it is also a bit of a model. We are trying to go | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
beyond the ideological debate of public versus private and h`ve a | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
railway that puts interest of passengers first, not profits. We | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
want to have a cap on rail fares. We want to an upper directly operated | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
railway to bid at games the private sector operators and we want to | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
devolve rail services to local communities to run them in the | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
interest of the economic ardas they serve. He spent some time in this | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
interview telling us the down point of privatisation. Why not go the | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
whole hog and renationalise our railway which is what a lot of | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
Labour MPs would like to sed you do. There are many people who would like | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
to see the railways renationalise but we have to be aware this is a | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
time. The financial crisis for whoever winds the next election And | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
we have to make sure we are getting absolute best value on the railways | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
for the taxpayers. Isn't thhs a question of being a little bit brief | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
here and doing it? What we `re proposing is brave. It goes against | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
the old left and right debates, it looks at the passenger and their | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
journey. That is why the rahlway needs to be, not looking at the | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
vested interest of the railway companies, not going back to the old | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
days of British rail. We nedd a railway fit for the 20th century and | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
I'm afraid under this government that has been sadly lacking. I | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
started talking about passengers with you, let's finish with the | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
passengers. How will you allay fears? I can hear people saxing | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
oh, my goodness, this is gohng to take us back to the bad old stays of | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
British rail. We are going to have confusion, chaos, strikes. What do | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
you say to those people? Wh`t I would say is that we are not trying | :48:16. | :48:22. | |
to go back to the old days of British rails but to go to ` new | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
21st`century. Anyone on a train in East Anglia would see that hs the | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
future of rail transport. M`ry Craegh, thank you very much. | :48:34. | :48:35. | |
So let's meet our guests, Luton MP Gavin Shuker for L`bour | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
and George Freeman, the Conservative MP for Mid Norfolk | :48:39. | :48:40. | |
Gavin Shuker, I am still not clear about Labour's policy, are xou? I | :48:41. | :48:49. | |
am, actually. Essentially, what we are saying is we have a fragmented | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
railway system at the moment. For a lot of people, their daily commute | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
is a grind. Why can't we allow the public sector to compete alongside | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
the private sector, as they have done with East Coast, with brilliant | :49:02. | :49:10. | |
performance. We think banning the private sector from the railways is | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
wrong. That is what the Torhes are pursuing, and it is what we will | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
reverse in government. You can get away from it, George Freeman, the | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
trains have been appalling fists and very expensive. More and more people | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
are using the trains, they `re full. This is a really, really silly | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
policy and went somebody it is an expert says things like that, you | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
are in a mess. More and mord passengers are using the rahlways, | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
higher volumes, higher satisfaction and we have embarked on a ?38 | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
billion programme on rail investment. The biggest since the | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
Victorian age. You have no `nswer to how we invest in a modern r`ilway | :49:51. | :49:58. | |
network. My daily commute, for example, is First Capital Connect. | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
Now the new train operating company. The reasons why the standard is | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
coming up is because the government is investing. I would prefer that if | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
there is value in that franchise, I would prefer the value coming back | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
to government. I would have the private sector and public sdctor to | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
compete along the same rules. Let's look at East Coast mainline. ?2 0 | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
million for the Exchequer, why not leave it where it is? A couple of | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
reasons. If you look at it, and off`peak return fare is twice as | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
expensive as the West Coast. Frequency is down and puncttality is | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
down. That service is getting worse in public ownership and the idea we | :50:40. | :50:47. | |
will go back to the `` to the old days of British rock is silly. There | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
were strikes, bad food, expdnsive. You've got to ask a question, where | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
will you find the investment if you nationalise it? If you don't think | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
there is a problem currentlx on RL or system, if you don't think that | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
we are more expensive than on the continent... I do, but you have to | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
ask the question, where will you get money from? More debt and more tax. | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
I wanted to ask both of you, were you up through the night on | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
Thursday? I started and I fhnished, but I went to sleep in the liddle. I | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
went to sleep confident the people of Scotland would do the right | :51:28. | :51:28. | |
thing. Well, in the end, it was a decided | :51:29. | :51:30. | |
no to independence from the people of Scotland but their vote hs set to | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
have a direct impact on us here David Cameron has pledged to deliver | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
a new and fair devolution sdttlement for the whole of the UK, | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
and that includes us. But how will more power be delivered | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
here in the east We have ruled ourselves before, | :51:44. | :51:45. | |
even if it was centuries ago, In the 850s, King Edmund ruled | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
the East of England. The region was independent, | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
rich and powerful. Rather than being English, | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
people here considered themselves This statue of King Edmund here in | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
Bury Saint Edmunds was commhssioned in 1974 to mark the unification | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
of East and West Suffolk. For his part, this 9th centtry | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
East Anglian King was remembered for his sense of justice, f`irness, | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
his unwavering passion Imagine no running water, | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
no electricity. People were much more local, | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
lived much more locally. That whole thing of the thrdat | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
of a Viking invasion, All those things led people | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
to live much more localised. Captured by Vikings at Hoxon in | :52:42. | :52:53. | |
Suffolk, this is where the country's last ruler of an independent | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
regional kingdom met his brttal end. Of course, at this particul`r | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
moment, when we are thinking about nationalism and England, we need to | :53:00. | :53:01. | |
remind ourselves that the word So, in one sense, | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
we are where England begins. Self`determination | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
is very important. However, to say that the Angles are | :53:10. | :53:20. | |
entitled to some sort of devolution begs the question what other groups | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
are entitled to devolution? Devolution to the regions is not | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
on the agenda. Which seems rather absurd bdcause, | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
as far as I can see, It could be in places like Bedford. | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
It's like that. I don't think we have much | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
association with the countids Although more powers for thd East | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
are broadly being welcomed, there are many questions ovdr how it | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
could be devolved. We should also, of course, | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
decentralise much more to local government, | :53:55. | :54:02. | |
much more to the county of Dssex, to towns and cities like Chelmsford, | :54:03. | :54:04. | |
and Ipswich, and Cambridge, and also to the great cities ` | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
London, Manchester, Norwich. We should be celebrating | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
and empowering local governlent This referendum vote, | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
very high turnout, narrow ddfeat for independence, everyone `greeing | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
more powers to Scotland. That has got to mean more powers | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
for localities in England as well. It could be very good news | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
for us here in the East. So, no matter what route we take, | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
the destination should lead to local people to having | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
a greater say over how they live. Sounds like a great idea, btt how do | :54:34. | :54:50. | |
we deliver it? The first thhng you did was scrap the regional | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
assemblies. They were a waste of money and didn't achieve enough The | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
big point David Cameron has made is that we have given Scotland a | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
devolution package and I thhnk that has been the right thing to do. | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
Wales has an independent assembly and Northern Ireland, too. We need | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
to talk about the Midlothian question. Gavin's party when they | :55:11. | :55:17. | |
were in power... It is time we looked to the English questhon. Do | :55:18. | :55:26. | |
we deliver it, Gavin Shuker to the cities because we don't havd many | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
cities. Luton isn't a city. Sadly, but we are working on it. I would | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
devolve much more down to local communities. Every government | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
pledges devolution and then they take the other approach. I think | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
devolution down to the most appropriate level, the most local | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
level is the right one, and I think people will look at what has | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
happened in Scotland and David Cameron's rushed announcement that | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
he didn't tell other party leaders about. What about East Anglha's | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
identity? We heard in that film we have difficulties. We are E`st and | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
West, not gelling. It is trhcky It is, and we need a package of | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
constitutional reforms. If we don't get the image question right, it | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
will be illegitimate. I think one of Labour's good idea was elected | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
mayors and cities. We need stronger leadership there. The north`east was | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
given a big raspberry under John Prescott. The regional government | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
isn't the answer. We can work together in East Anglia and we | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
should. We have done locallx is back to neighbourhoods and towns and | :56:43. | :56:44. | |
parishes. Let's talk about the time frame. Gavin Shuker, Ed Milhband | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
said it is important but let's do it in the right way. But sounds like | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
he's putting the brakes on things. We need to consult people in the | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
country and work out what wd want to do. I have to say, the ironx of | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
spending the last three years watching the zombie governmdnt doing | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
very little and then in the final six they are going to throw all the | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
pieces up in the air is not wasted on me. That is going to hold up | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
getting power in the east, which is said is said is a good thing. You | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
can do much greater devoluthon right now to local authorities. The truth | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
is... Everyone is scared because there is a general election coming | :57:29. | :57:30. | |
up and they know they will never form a government without Scottish | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
MPs. That is not true! That is why they ask aired. Let me just ask you, | :57:36. | :57:44. | |
should we discussed properlx? Should we recall Parliament? We should be | :57:45. | :57:52. | |
discussing fairness giving devolution to Scotland becatse | :57:53. | :57:52. | |
England deserves better. Of course, the referendum h`s | :57:53. | :57:54. | |
been the big story this week. But plenty of other politic`l news, | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
too. Here's our 60 second round | :57:58. | :57:59. | |
up with Deborah McGurran. Hundreds of jobs are under threat | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
at Group Lotus in Norfolk. The company, which builds | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
high`performance sports cars, could shed a third of its workforce | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
as part of restructuring pl`ns. We want to do everything we can to | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
make sure that the end numbdr, the actual number of job losses | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
is as low as it possibly can be Day centres in Northamptonshire | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
including the Afro`Caribbean They now have to apply to | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
the council for money You have this in the pipeline | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
for closing. Right in the middle | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
of Wellingborough! Where are these people going to go, | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
for God's sake? The blame game over the King's Lynn | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
incinerator continued this week when the Public Accounts Colmittee | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
said DEFRA's withdrawal of funding had left Norfolk taxpayers hn the | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
lurch to the tune of ?34 million. We can ill afford to throw this sort | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
of money away, and we are h`ving to throw it away, effectively, | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
because the government can't make up So, a pretty unsettling week for | :59:03. | :59:18. | |
those working at Group Lotus. We heard Richard Bacon they're saying | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
everything must be done, but practically what can the government | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
do to try to bring those potential 325 job losses down? I am working | :59:27. | :59:33. | |
closely with Richard on this and with events. I'm making surd we are | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
doing everything. We have a reasonable track record when these | :59:40. | :59:41. | |
restructures take place. Whdn we talk to the company many jobs can | :59:42. | :59:48. | |
be. The truth is that in thhs area we have two Formula One teals in | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
Norfolk. Northamptonshire is a global centre for Formula One, we | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
have a great story to be proud of. Many people will recycle into the | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
automotive economy. This nedd not be a disaster. Gavin Shuker, it was | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
almost a disaster for foxhole in Luton. But it came back frol the | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
brink. Any essence for Lotus? In 2001 when we lost the car plant | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
10,000 jobs that was. But wd allowed people to retrain and get into new | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
jobs. Peter Mandelson, under the last Labour government, these guys | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
in government as well, therd is a strong story about automotive that | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
has meant that places like GM have decided to reinvest in Luton. We are | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
the last place to make whitd vans here. The Ashes of the car hndustry | :00:37. | :00:44. | |
in the 70s, we rebuilt the automotive industry. Thank xou both | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
very much. We're back next week at the same time for the other | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
the Conservative mayor's policy No more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
to you. Welcome back the to Labour | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
conference, where we're joined by the latest hot new stand-up | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
comedian on the Manchester circuit. I speak of course of former Deputy | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
Prime Minister John Prescott. In between giving tub-thumping | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
speeches to rally the party faithful this week, | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
he's appearing at the Comedy Store. He was also of course the man | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
behind the last attempt to solve Our political panel is with me as | :01:23. | :01:35. | |
well. John, we have got Scottish votes for Scottish laws, and more | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
Scottish votes for Scottish laws, why not English votes for English | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
laws? That's an English parliament in a major constitutional change and | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
that is what has started. I certainly don't agree with that I | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
campaign for powers to be given to the regions. When I first tested it | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
in the Northeast, I lost. Why? Because they said they were not the | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
same powers you are giving to Scotland. So, basically, we must do | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
that, decentralised, not just with a Westminster Parliament. As you know, | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
in 32 years I produce the alternative. You've kept that for 32 | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
years? I took it off my shelf and everybody was talking about it now, | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
but they weren't in 1982. This was my five plan. 200 meetings all | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
around the country -- five-year plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
years ago, that this was a plot to turn Westminster into a Tory | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
dominated English parliament. But if that is how England had voted, it's | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
not a plot, it's democracy. You can get reform in a more federal | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
structure, and even English parliament does fit into the federal | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
structure and that is what the Liberals say, but you need a fairer | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
representation. It might be quite radical, and we could get rid of the | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
Lord's, and have representation in the region there. It can't be done | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's assuming he has been sold out, and | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
it was less than a week ago they remain the announcement. We have to | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
get it carried out will stop but don't connect it to the English | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
parliament that fixes it in their favour. It may be pretty low | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
politics from David Cameron to come up with something that was not in | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
the vowel -- a bow on the front page of the daily record, but if they do | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
not agree with what he said at the time of the general election, he | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
will say two in which voters, if you want real protection in England | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
vote Conservative, and if you want Scottish MPs deciding on your level | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
of taxation, vote Labour. He is scared to death of UKIP may have | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
been saying it for a while. In the constitutional changes have to see | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
what is fair and equitable, the same with the Barnett fallen -- formula. | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
But what you have to do is get a fair system. It takes time to | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
discuss it. I was doing a 32 years ago and nobody wanted to know. We | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
had better start a debate, and don't mixed up the constitutional type of | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
English parliament with what we are promising in Scotland. It is about | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
trust and politics. So the turnout of the north-east regional assembly | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
and they voted against it. The turnout that the police and crime | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
commissioners was low. How'd you get people interested in the process and | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
it doesn't feel like a conversation in smoky rooms and you go back to | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
British people and tell them what you decided? If you look at the | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
turnout in Scotland whether they were interested in, now it is | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
phenomenally interesting. It is about real power, having real | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
influence. What they said to me in the north-east, they said we know | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
you have an idea for devolution and you will give us assemblies but it | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
doesn't have the power of Scotland, but now we are talking about | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
equity, similar distribution of power and similar resources. The | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
English people are entitled to that. They have been robbed of it for too | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
long. Labour has long struggled with what it should do over devolving | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
power to the regions and you came up with regional assemblies. Ed | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
Miliband has a different idea of city regions. Aren't they the same | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
idea of yours but without a democratic accountability? Can we | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
really trust the greater region of Manchester or Birmingham to deliver | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
if there is not the same kind of democratic link with the people I | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
live in whole, and it stops on the boundary of the Pennines -- the city | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
of Hull. We have city regions from Labour because I failed in the | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
north-east to get the assemblies in, and now we have to look at those | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
options. Do you work through city regions? Mainly in the north, I | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
might say. Even the federal structure they talk about my be in | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
the North or Midlands with Birmingham, but there are a number | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
of options and that is where I believe that what the White Paper | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
should do is to put those options in. Instead of having to put them | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
together, state what you want to do in the English regions. Leave it to | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
the legislation, which is what will happen with the Scottish, and once | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
you've agreed it, you do it after. You have to start the radical debate | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
about giving the English regions, not centralised in London, but | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
decentralised. Do you need to have a separate English parliament? | :06:12. | :06:13. | |
Wouldn't it just satisfy the English if you simply said to MPs, when it's | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
in English matter in the House of Commons, stop interfering? I would | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
disagree with that. I would say put the option in the White Paper. The | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
White Paper seems to be talking about Scotland. If you don't put the | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
commitments to what you want to do with the English regions, people | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
might say I'm not supporting that. Put the framework in the White | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
Paper, but a different timetable. Devolution in this country has been | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
to a different timetable, whether it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
looking fundamentally at it and the Labour Party should be leading the | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
debate. Let's come the no campaign lost Glasgow. The cradle of British | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
socialism. -- let's come to something that happened with the | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
referendum as the no campaign lost Glasgow. Is it a sign that the | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
Labour Party are finding it hard to what -- hold on to their traditional | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
working class vote question mark its different in Manchester. They would | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
say it is a message about decentralisation. If we change the | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
message a bit maybe. We have been thinking that now it is that either | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
the Labour Party to recognise it is not the old message and old areas | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
that will win it. I remember covering the 1997 referendum in | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
Scotland and you gave a tub thumping speech in a big hall in Hamilton and | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
you really connected. Obviously it was a different referendum because | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
that was about a parliament, not independence and Alex Salmond was on | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
your side, but you, and Ingush MP, an English minister, connected to | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
the core Labour voters in a way that Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an | :07:52. | :08:00. | |
English MP. You make a fair point. In the big rally, I had to point out | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on with it. What I was saying there was | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
that I supported you, as I did for 30 odd years when Labour MPs were | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
against any thinker Scotland. I support you, but I expect you to | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
come in with your Scottish MPs and make sure the English get their | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
share of the powers and resources and that is what that speech was | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
about, and by God, it's as relevant today as it was then. I haven't got | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
any Scottish MPs, I live in Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
No. What would you have done? I can't tell you. You would have voted | :08:40. | :08:47. | |
yes, come on. I'm interested. What do you want to hear from the speech | :08:48. | :08:54. | |
by Ed Miliband? People are wondering about where Labour stands. There are | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
many issues we have flown around, and we've done the discussion just | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
now. What he has got to do where he started off on the minimum wage You | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
are trying to deal with those left behind. Those are the bottom. That | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
is the Labour message. The National Health Service is our creation and | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
we have to say it will be saved If you can save all of these bankers | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
with all the money and say you haven't got the money for the NHS, | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
say where we stand. That will be the priority. The third one, housing. I | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
have had a revolutionary idea that you can buy a house without a | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
deposit and without the interest or paying the stamp duty, and you buy | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
it by rent. The government gives ?150 billion guaranteed housing for | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary people who can use their rent to buy | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
the house. It's happening in the north-east. Why are they not | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
listening to you? You have said more to connect with ordinary people in | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
three minutes than we will probably hear in an hour. I've been telling | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
them, made, and we have a commission coming out. People don't want | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
commissions, they want action. I say, I know what we do, housing | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
health, the people. That is our language. That is why we are Labour. | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
That a lot of people run away. I think in Glasgow, they wondered | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
about that. If you turn up on the same three platforms, and I know | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
it's a critical thing to say, they think in Scotland it is a coalition. | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
I don't like coalitions. It looks like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
it was saved because Rupert Murdoch started the The Times about the | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
polls and he couldn't even get the sun to say that they wanted. We | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
haven't got time. I wondered how long it would take is to get to | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
repot Murdoch. You beat the record. -- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
quite behind on the economy, and people are looking at Labour, trying | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
to work out if they can trust you to the stewards of the economy given | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
2010. Under Labour 's plans there is 20 billion of cuts to make in the | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
next Parliament. Will we hear anything about that? It is about the | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
proportion of debt to GDP. I know it sounds historic, but our debt when | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
we came in in 1997 was a proportion of GDP, and you must know this, and | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
that was less than Thatcher's. Why did we get done on debt? You guys | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
run around saying a lot about it, but the fact is it was worse under | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a hero. If you look at the debt, it is | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
still a problem. Gordon Brown did an awful lot to solve those problems, | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
but they were still left with us. What we have to have is a sensible | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
discussion like we had on devolution and now we are talking about | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
finances. Let's look at the public sector debt and the price we pay. We | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
need to be putting the record straight. The problem is they tell | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
me, John, we have to look to the future not the past. We are getting | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
screwed on the past and we have to change it and perhaps Gordon Brown | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
coming in could do something. Finishing on the future, when we did | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
a poll of the Labour candidates you were watching on the big screen | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
when it came up that their favourite to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
Cooper, why did you shout no! That is alive. -- alive. -- that is not | :12:19. | :12:27. | |
true. I know resistance is not strong. What did that mean? | :12:28. | :12:37. | |
You can't get away with anything at a Conference, John. I was dropping | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
comments them to pick up everywhere, I do not wear -- nowhere they got | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
that one from. Good to have you back. Round of applause for former | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for today. Don't applaud them, they are | :12:58. | :12:59. | |
useless. my guests. I'll be back here at | :13:00. | :13:01. | |
Labour conference for the Daily 11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
you live coverage of the speech by We're here all week, and next Sunday | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
you can find us in Birmingham for Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:17. | :13:22. |