28/09/2014 Sunday Politics East


28/09/2014

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Transcript


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Morning folks and welcome to The Sunday Politics,

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live from the Conservative Conference in Birmingham.

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There will be one less Conservative MP here after Mark Reckless defected

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He joins us live from his constituency, where he has

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It has not been the best of starts for the Prime Minister, as he

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arrives in Birmingham for the last Tory conference before the election.

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On top of the Reckless defection, a junior Tory minister has resigned

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RAF jets have carried out their first mission over Iraq

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Here in the east, with our roads, railways and rural broadband left

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wanting, we ask what have the Conservatives done for ts?

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And they're smiling now but can UKIP really deliver when in power?

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In London, how the richest 1% are pulling further away, and why those

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priced out are choosing to move away.

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And joining me, three of the country's most loyal journalists,

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who sadly have yet to resign or defect to our inferior rivals.

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Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.

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And, of course, they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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And you too can get involved by using the hashtag #BBCSP.

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At the current rate of Tory resignations,

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Mr Cameron could be speaking to an empty hall when he makes his keynote

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address to the Tory conference here in Birmingham tomorrow.

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It's been a classic car crash of a start to the conference, with a UKIP

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defection, a minister shamed into resignation by a sex scandal and

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Ed Miliband's memory lapses now look like a little local difficulty.

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Here's what the Prime Minister had to say

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These things are frustrating and frankly counter-productive and

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rather senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you

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want to get the deficit down, if you want to build a stronger Britain

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that we can be proud of, there is only one option, which is to have a

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Conservative government after the next election.

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And Mark Reckless joins me now from Rochester.

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Welcome to the programme. Why did you lie to all your Conservative

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colleagues and mislead those who elected you? Well, I am keeping

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faith with my constituents and keeping my promises to them. You

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heard the Prime Minister saying that the Conservative led government was

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dealing with the deficit and cutting immigration. The reality is, we have

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increased the national debt by more in five years than even Labour

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managed in 13, and immigration is back up to the levels we saw under

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Labour. I believe in the promises I made in 2010, and I want to keep my

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words to my electorate, not least to deal with the deficit, cut

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immigration, reform the political system, to localise powers back to

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the community, particularly over house-building. The government has

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broken its word on all those things are. I want to keep my word to my

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voters here, and that is why I have done what I have done, by moving to

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UKIP. You have not kept your words to your Conservative constituency

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chairman. You assured him 48 hours ago that you would not defect, and

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you left his voice mail on the Conservative Party chairman's office

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telephone, missing to come to Birmingham to campaign for the

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Tories. This is your voice mail .. I have just picked up your e-mail ..

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So, Friday night, telling Grant Shapps you are coming to Birmingham

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to campaign for the Tories. The next day, you are joining UKIP. Why did

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you are a? I sounded a bit more hesitant on that call than I usually

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do, and I am not sure if that was the full conversation. But you

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cannot discuss these things in advance, you have to make a

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decision. I have decided the future of this country is better served by

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UKIP then it is by the Conservative Party under David Cameron. I made a

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lot of promises to my constituents, and I want to keep those promises.

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That is why I am moving to UKIP so I can deliver the change this

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country really needs. In May of this year, you said that Nigel Farage,

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quote, poses the most serious threat to a Tory victory at the election.

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So, you agree, voting UKIP means a Labour government? I think voting

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UKIP means getting UKIP. While in the past a disproportionate number

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of UKIP people were ex-Conservatives, now, they are

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winning a lot more people, from all parties. People are so disillusioned

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with the political class in Westminster, that they have not

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voted often for a generation. Those are the people Nigel Farage is

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inspiring, and frankly, he has also inspired me. What he has done in the

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last 20 years, building his party, getting people from all walks of

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life, sending up for ordinary people, I think deserves support.

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That is a key reason why I am moving. UKIP are now the agents of

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change. You said it poses them a serious threat to a Tory victory? My

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ambition is not a Tory victory. We made all of these promises in 2 10

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as Conservatives, and they have been broken. We now hear from David

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Cameron about English votes for English laws, supported by Nick

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Clegg as well, but that is what we said in our manifesto in 2010, and

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we have done absolutely nothing about it. It is not credible now to

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pretend that you are going to do those things. They have omitted to

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give every Scot ?1600 per year in definitely. If you want to stand up

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for the English taxpayer, and really tackle the debt, then UKIP are the

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party who will do that. But there is nothing principled about this, this

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is just an attempt to save your skin. You said UKIP stopped you

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winning in 2005 - UKIP did not stand in 2010, and you won. You are

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frightened that UKIP would beat you in the next election, this is to

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save your skin to me you think I am doing this because I am frightened,

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you think this is the easy option, to abandon my position in

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Parliament, but my principles on the line? On the contrary, you look at

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MPs who have moved party before almost none of them have given their

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voters to chance to have a say on what they have done. I am asking

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permission from my voters, and I am moving to UKIP because I believe

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many of the people in my constituency have been let down by a

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Conservative led government, and that what UKIP is saying appeals to

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decent, hard-working people, who want to see real change in our

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country. If they do not agree, then they can vote in a by-election and

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have their say on who they want to be their MP. I am being open and

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honest, giving people a say. I am trying to do the right thing by my

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constituents, and whatever the risk is to me personally, I think it is

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the right thing to do. It is what MPs should be in politics to try and

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do for the people they represent. Your defection, coming after Douglas

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Carswell's, confirms the claim that UKIP is largely a depository for

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disaffected right-wing Tories like yourself, isn't it? On the contrary,

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the number of people I met in Doncaster yesterday was

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extraordinary. When I first went to Conservative conferences 20 years

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ago, there was some enthusiasm for politics, I remember Norman Tebbit

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speaking against Maastricht, people fought they could change things

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there was real politics. But I do not think you will see that at

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Birmingham this week, it is PR people, lobbyists, corporate, few

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ordinary members of. At Ancaster, people had saved up for months just

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to get the rail ticket to Doncaster. People who believe in UKIP, who

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believe in Nigel Farage, who believe in the team, as agents of change,

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who can actually deal with a political class at Westminster which

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has let able down. We want proper reform to the political system,

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which David Cameron promises but does not deliver. Final question -

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after the next election, the Prime Minister is going to be either David

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Cameron or Ed Miliband, that is the choice, one or the other - who would

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you prefer? Well, what we would prefer is to get the most UKIP

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policies implemented. We want a first rate we want to deal with

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immigration. I asked about who you wanted to be Prime Minister. We will

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look at the circumstances. We need as many UKIP MPs as possible, to

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restore trust in politics. If people vote UKIP, they will get UKIP. How

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serious is this? I think it is very serious. It is the old Tory disease,

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destroyed John Major, and it has been bubbling away again. It is

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beginning to feel like the worst days of Labour in the early nineteen

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eighties. It matters, because people care passionately. It is nothing

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like Labour in the early 1980s, it is bad, but it is nothing like that.

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There are these very strong strands. People like David Davis

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writing a large piece in the Daily Mail attacking the leader on the

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first day of the conference. That is the kind of thing that Labour used

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to do. That is what David Davis does all the time! But this is authentic

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in the sense that there is a real, genuine dispute about Europe. Some

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of us were not around in the 19 0s, but I imagine it is pretty bad.

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There is the short-term problem of the by-election they might lose the

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media problem of the general election which they cannot win if

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UKIP remain anywhere near their current level of support. But in

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many ways the longer term question is the most pressing, which is, does

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it make is the most pressing, which is, does

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Party to remain one party, or would it not be better for the hard-core

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of 20-30 intransigent Eurosceptics to essentially join UKIP or form

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their own party? At least the Conservatives would become more

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internally manageable. And probably lose the next election. Probably,

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yes. That is what you are advising them? If the reward is to have a

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coherent party in 15 years' time. It is just as well you are a

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columnist, not a party strategist. I was an anorak in the 1980s, who

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watched the Labour conference on the TV. Were you wearing your anorak? Of

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course I was, that is how sad I am. But once again the crisis from UKIP

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has forced the Prime Minister to step in an even more Eurosceptic

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direction. Said on television what he was trying not to say, which is

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that if he does not get his way in the European negotiations, he will

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recommend to the British people that we should go. He began by saying, as

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I have always said, and when they say that, you know they are saying

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something new. He basically said, Britain should not stay if it is not

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in Britain's interests. I think this is big stakes for both the Tories

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and four UKIP. The Tories are able to write off Clacton. Rochester is

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number 271 on the UKIP friendly list. If the Tories win it, big

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moment for them. If UKIP lose it, this strategy of various will be

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facing a bit of a setback. To what extent are Mark Reckless's

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views shared by Conservative The Sunday Politics commissioned

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an exclusive poll of Conservative Pollsters ComRes spoke to over ,000

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councillors - that's almost an eighth of their

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council base - and Eleanor Garnier There is not a single party

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conference at the seaside this year, and Sunday Politics could not get

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through them all without a trip to the coast. So here we are on the

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shore in Sussex. There are plenty of Conservative councillors here, and

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Tory MPs as well, but one challenge they all face is UKIP, who have got

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their sights on coastal towns. Places like Worthing East and surer

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and, with high numbers of pensioners, providing rich pickings

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for UKIP. In West Sussex, the Tories run the county council, but UKIP are

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the official opposition, with ten councillors. We cannot lose any more

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ground to UKIP. If we lose any more ground, if you look at the way it

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has swung from us to them, it is getting near to being the middle

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point, where we might start losing seats which we have always regarded

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as safe seats. So, it has got to be stemmed, it cannot go any further.

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Our exclusive survey looked at the policy areas where the Conservatives

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are vulnerable to UKIP. If an EU Referendum Bill is called tomorrow,

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45% say they would vote to leave, 39% would stay in. Asked about

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immigration... It was those issues, Europe and

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immigration, that Mark Reckless said were the head of his decision. I

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promised to cut immigration while treating people fairly and humanely.

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I cannot keep that promise as a Conservative, I can keep it as

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UKIP. When asked if Conservative councillors would like an electoral

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pact with UKIP in the run-up to the general election, one third said

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they support the idea. 63% are opposed and 7% don't know.

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Conservative councillors who left the party to join UKIP say it wasn't

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easy. I left because basically the Conservatives left me. I saw it as a

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difficult decision to change, but what I was seeing with UKIP was

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freed. Me being able to speak for my residents. Back to our survey and on

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climate change 49% said it was happening, but that humans are not

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to blame. Our survey showed that 60% think David Cameron was wrong to

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pursue legalising gay marriage, with 31% saying it was the right thing to

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do and 9% not sure. In Worthing councillors said gay marriage was

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divisive. That has really been an issue here, it might have damaged

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the party slightly, and I think in a way by setting a rule like that it

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is a very religious thing and it is almost trying to play God to make

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that decision. But some of the party's toughest decisions have been

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over the economy. 56% in our survey thought the spending cuts the

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Government has so far announced have not gone far enough. 6% were not

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sure. They are prepared for difficult decisions, but local

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activists say the party's voice must be clearer. I think the message has

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to be more forceful, it has to be specially targeted to the

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ex-Conservative voters who now vote UKIP, especially in this area, the

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vast majority of UKIP people are disillusioned Conservatives. The

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message has to be loud and strong, come back and we are the party to

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give you what you want. With just eight months until the general

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election, the pressure is on and local Conservatives are searching

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for clues to help their party stem the flow of defections. Joining me

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now is William Hague, the former Foreign Secretary and the Leader of

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the House of Commons. Tories like Mark Reckless are

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defecting to UKIP because they don't trust the party leadership to

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deliver on Europe, do they? They believe people like you and David

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Cameron will campaign to stay in and they are right. They said before

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they defected that people should vote Conservative to get a

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referendum on Europe, and that is right of course. The only way to get

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a referendum is to do that and this is the point, the people should

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decide. However a future government decides it will campaign, it should

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be the people of the country who decide. Can you say to our viewers

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this morning that is not enough powers are repatriated back to

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Britain, you would want to come out, can you say that? Our objective

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is to get those powers and stay in. The answer to the question is I

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won't be deciding, David Cameron won't be deciding, you the voters

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will be deciding. But you have to give us your view. If you don't get

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enough powers back, would you vote to come out and recommended? Our

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objective is to get those powers and be able to stay in. You just get

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endless speculation years in advance. I will decide at the time

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how I will vote. Surely that is the rational position for everyone to

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take but I want a referendum to take place. I understand that. As you

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pointed out to Mark Reckless just now, unless there is a Conservative

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government, people won't have that choice. Under a Labour government

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they will not get a choice at all. Our survey of Tory councillors shows

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that almost 50% would vote to leave the EU in a referendum. I think it

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showed, wasn't it 45, and 39%, but again, I'm pretty sure they will

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decide at the time. They will want to see what a future government

:20:08.:20:13.

achieves in a renegotiation before they decide what to vote in a

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referendum. Unless David Cameron is Prime Minister and there is a

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Conservative government, there will not be a renegotiation. That is a

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point you have made four times. I think they have got it. Your Cabinet

:20:32.:20:34.

colleague says we should not be scared of quitting the EU, but you

:20:35.:20:37.

went native in the Foreign Office, didn't you? You used to be a

:20:38.:20:42.

Eurosceptic, you are now the Foreign Office line man. No, I don't think

:20:43.:20:49.

so! We brought back the first reduced European budget ever in

:20:50.:20:54.

history. Even Margaret Thatcher .. Leaving the EU scares you, doesn't

:20:55.:21:01.

it? Not much scares me after 26 years in politics but we want to do

:21:02.:21:05.

the best thing for the country. Where we scared when we got us out

:21:06.:21:13.

of liability for Eurozone bailouts? We were not scared of anybody.

:21:14.:21:18.

People said we couldn't achieve things but we negotiated these

:21:19.:21:23.

things. We can do that with a wider negotiation in Europe. Mr Reckless

:21:24.:21:31.

says he cannot keep the Conservative promise to tackle immigration. You

:21:32.:21:36.

have failed to keep your promise to keep net immigration down. You

:21:37.:21:50.

promised to cut it below 100,00 , you failed. It is over 200,000

:21:51.:22:06.

people. We have cut it from 250 000 in 2005, the last figures were

:22:07.:22:15.

240,000. I think we can file that under F four failed. It includes

:22:16.:22:21.

students, we want them in the country. You knew that when you made

:22:22.:22:28.

the promise. But has it come down? Yes, it has. Have we stopped

:22:29.:22:33.

the promise. But has it come down? coming here because of our benefit

:22:34.:22:37.

system? Yes. None of that happened under Labour. If Mark Reckless had

:22:38.:22:43.

his way, it would be more likely we would have a Labour government. They

:22:44.:22:47.

have an open door policy on immigration. You are not just losing

:22:48.:22:53.

MPs to UKIP, you are losing voters. Polling by Michael Ashcroft shows

:22:54.:22:59.

that 20% of people who voted Tory in 2010 have abandoned youth and three

:23:00.:23:02.

quarters of them are voting UKIP now. We will see in the general

:23:03.:23:09.

election. Politics is very fluid in this country and we shouldn't deny

:23:10.:23:15.

that in any way but UKIP thought they were going to win the

:23:16.:23:19.

by-election in Newark, we had a thumping Conservative victory, and I

:23:20.:23:24.

think opinion polls are snapshots of opinion now. They are not forecast

:23:25.:23:28.

of the general election and we will be doing everything we can to get

:23:29.:23:34.

our message across. Today we are announcing 3 million more

:23:35.:23:37.

apprenticeships in the next Parliament. I think this is what

:23:38.:23:41.

people will be voting on, rather than who has defected. Your activist

:23:42.:23:49.

base once parked with UKIP. Our survey shows a third of Tory

:23:50.:23:54.

councillors would like a formal pact with UKIP. Why not? It shows two

:23:55.:24:01.

thirds are against it. No, it shows one third want it. I read the

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figures, it showed 67% don't want it. We are not going to make a pact

:24:10.:24:16.

with other parties, and they don't work in the British electoral system

:24:17.:24:23.

even if they were desirable. You are sharing the Cabinet committee on

:24:24.:24:28.

English votes for English laws. Is further devolution for Scotland

:24:29.:24:32.

conditional on progress towards English devolution? No, the

:24:33.:24:36.

commitment to Scotland is unconditional. We will meet the

:24:37.:24:41.

commitments to Scotland but we believe, we the Conservatives

:24:42.:24:44.

believe, that in tandem with that we have to resolve these questions

:24:45.:24:48.

about fairness to the rest of the UK as well. That will depend on other

:24:49.:24:53.

parties or the general election result. Are you committed to the

:24:54.:24:59.

Gordon Brown timetable? Yes, absolutely. So you are committed to

:25:00.:25:04.

producing draft legislation by Burns night, that is at the end of

:25:05.:25:08.

January. Will you produce proposals for English votes on English laws by

:25:09.:25:15.

then? We will, but whether they are agreed across the parties will

:25:16.:25:22.

depend on the other parties. There was no sign that they were agreeable

:25:23.:25:28.

at the Labour conference. We will produce our ideas on the same

:25:29.:25:33.

timetable as the timetable for Scottish devolution. You will

:25:34.:25:37.

therefore bring forward proposals for English votes for English laws

:25:38.:25:43.

by the end of January? Yes. And will you attempt to get them on the

:25:44.:25:47.

statute book before the election? The commitment in Scotland is to

:25:48.:25:51.

legislate after the election. You will publish a bill beforehand? We

:25:52.:25:57.

will publish proposals beforehand. I don't exclude doing something before

:25:58.:26:03.

the election, but the Scottish timetable is to legislate for the

:26:04.:26:07.

further devolution after the general election, whoever wins the election.

:26:08.:26:12.

Have you given thought as to what English votes for English laws would

:26:13.:26:19.

mean? I have thought a lot of it over 15 years. I am not going to

:26:20.:26:24.

prejudge what the outcome will be, but it does mean in essence that

:26:25.:26:29.

when decisions are taken, decisions that only affect England or only

:26:30.:26:34.

England and Wales, then only the MPs from England and Wales should be

:26:35.:26:38.

making those decisions. You can achieve that in many different

:26:39.:26:43.

ways. Is that it for English devolution, is that what it amounts

:26:44.:26:49.

to? That is devolution to England if you like, but within England there

:26:50.:26:53.

is a lot of other devolution going on and we might well want to extend

:26:54.:26:58.

that further. We have given more freedom to local authorities, there

:26:59.:27:03.

is a lot of scope to do more of that, but that in itself is not the

:27:04.:27:07.

answer to the problem of what happens at Westminster. You haven't

:27:08.:27:16.

just given Scotland more devolution or planned to do it, you have also

:27:17.:27:21.

enshrined the Barnett formula and that seems to be in perpetuity. It

:27:22.:27:26.

is widely regarded as being unfair to Wales and many of the poorer

:27:27.:27:31.

English regions. Why do you perpetuate it? It will become less

:27:32.:27:34.

relevant overtime if more tax-raising powers... It goes all

:27:35.:27:43.

the way back to the 1970s, we made a commitment on that, we will keep our

:27:44.:27:47.

commitments to Scotland as more -- but as more tax-raising powers

:27:48.:27:55.

devolved, the Barnett formula is less significant. If you transfer ?5

:27:56.:28:00.

billion of tax-raising powers to Scotland, 5 billion comes off the

:28:01.:28:05.

Barnett formula? It will be a lot more complicated than that, but yes,

:28:06.:28:11.

as their own decisions about taxation are made, the grand from

:28:12.:28:16.

Westminster will go down. And you can guarantee that if there is a

:28:17.:28:19.

majority Conservative government, there will be English votes for

:28:20.:28:25.

English laws after the election Yes, I stress again that there are

:28:26.:28:29.

different ways of doing it but if there is no cross-party agreement on

:28:30.:28:33.

that, the Conservatives will produce our proposals and campaign for them

:28:34.:28:38.

in the general election. Don't go away because I want to move on to

:28:39.:28:40.

some other matters. Now to the fight against so-called

:28:41.:28:46.

Islamic State terrorists. Yesterday, RAF Tornado jets carried

:28:47.:28:48.

out their first flights over Iraq since MPs gave their approval for

:28:49.:28:51.

air-strikes against the militants. When you face a situation with

:28:52.:29:00.

psychobabble -- psychopathic killers who have already brutally beheaded

:29:01.:29:04.

one of our own citizens, who have already launched and tried to

:29:05.:29:09.

execute plots in our own country to maim innocent people, we have a

:29:10.:29:13.

choice - we can either stand back from this and say it is too

:29:14.:29:17.

difficult, let's let someone else try to keep our country safe, or we

:29:18.:29:23.

take the correct decision to have a full, comprehensive strategy but

:29:24.:29:26.

let's be prepared to play our role to make sure these people cannot do

:29:27.:29:29.

not trust harm. And William Hague is still with me -

:29:30.:29:33.

until July he was, of course, Why have only six Tornado jets being

:29:34.:29:47.

mobilised? Do not assume that is all that will be taking part in this

:29:48.:29:51.

operation. That is all that has been announced and I do not think we

:29:52.:29:55.

should speculate. Even the Danes are sending more fighter jets. There is

:29:56.:30:01.

no restriction in the House of Commons resolution passed on Friday

:30:02.:30:05.

on what we can do. So why so little? Do not underestimate what

:30:06.:30:10.

our Tornados can do. They have some unique capabilities, capabilities

:30:11.:30:14.

which have been specifically asked for by our allies. When you are on

:30:15.:30:19.

the wrong end of six Tornados, it will not feel like a small effort.

:30:20.:30:23.

But there will be other things which can add to that effort. We are

:30:24.:30:28.

joining in a month after the operation started, we are late, we

:30:29.:30:32.

are behind America, France, Australia, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain,

:30:33.:30:38.

Qatar, one hand tied behind our backs cause of the rule about not

:30:39.:30:43.

attacking Syria - why is the British government leading from behind?

:30:44.:30:48.

First of all, we are a democratic country, and you know all about

:30:49.:30:50.

Parliamentary approval. You could have recalled parliament. We have

:30:51.:30:55.

done that, with a political consensus. Other European countries

:30:56.:31:00.

also took the decision on Friday to send their military assets. Our

:31:01.:31:04.

allies are absolutely content with that, and Britain will play an

:31:05.:31:09.

important role, along with many other nations, including Arab

:31:10.:31:13.

nations. General Sir David Richards Sheriff, who just steps down as the

:31:14.:31:20.

Nato Deputy Supreme Commander, he condemns the spineless lack of

:31:21.:31:24.

leadership and the absence of any credible strategy. It is

:31:25.:31:29.

embarrassing,isn't it? Of course, they turn into armchair generals. We

:31:30.:31:36.

are playing an important role, we are a democratic country. Your

:31:37.:31:41.

viewers will remember, we had a vote last year on military action in

:31:42.:31:46.

Syria and we were defeated in the House of Commons, a bad moment for

:31:47.:31:50.

our foreign policy. We have taken care to bring this forward when we

:31:51.:31:53.

can win a vote in the House of Commons, and that is how we will

:31:54.:32:01.

proceed. The air Chief Marshal until recently in charge of the RAF, he

:32:02.:32:05.

says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq but not Syria. He calls the decision

:32:06.:32:12.

ludicrous. Of course, it DOES make sense to bomb Iraq, because the

:32:13.:32:17.

Iraqi government has asked for our assistance. This came up a lot in

:32:18.:32:24.

the debate on Friday, and the Prime Minister explained, similar to what

:32:25.:32:29.

I have just been saying, that there is not a political consensus about

:32:30.:32:34.

Syria in the House of Commons. When we did it last year, we were

:32:35.:32:38.

defeated, and it was described by all commentators as a huge blow to

:32:39.:32:41.

the government and to our foreign policy. So, we will bring forward

:32:42.:32:47.

proposals when there is a majority in this country to do so in the

:32:48.:32:51.

House of Commons. Professor Michael Clarke, one of the world top experts

:32:52.:32:59.

on military strategy and history, he says there are very few important IS

:33:00.:33:02.

targets in northern Iraq, that they are all in Syria, and we are

:33:03.:33:07.

limiting ourselves to the periphery of the campaign. First of all, just

:33:08.:33:11.

because you are not doing everything does not mean you should not do

:33:12.:33:15.

something. Secondly, the United States and other countries are

:33:16.:33:18.

engaged in the action against targets in Syria. This is a

:33:19.:33:23.

coalition effort, with people doing different things. Thirdly, if we

:33:24.:33:28.

were to put their proposal to the House of Commons tomorrow, and it

:33:29.:33:32.

was defeated, we would not have achieved a great deal. You do not

:33:33.:33:37.

know it would have been defeated. The Labour Party has given no

:33:38.:33:40.

indication they would have supported that. So, you are hostage to the

:33:41.:33:46.

Labour Party? We have to win a democratic vote in the House of

:33:47.:33:50.

Commons, and the Labour Party is a very large part of the House of

:33:51.:33:55.

Commons. You are asking us to pursue a policy which at the moment could

:33:56.:34:00.

be defeated in Parliament. Is it not embarrassing to be on the wrong side

:34:01.:34:03.

of so many of these military experts? Why should we trust the

:34:04.:34:08.

judgment of here today, gone tomorrow, politicians? We have the

:34:09.:34:16.

military experts with us now. We have a national security council, we

:34:17.:34:19.

do not have sofa government, unlike the last government. The national

:34:20.:34:23.

security council is chaired by the Prime Minister. Alongside the Chief

:34:24.:34:29.

of Defence Staff and the heads of the intelligence agencies. And we

:34:30.:34:36.

take decisions together with the people who have the information

:34:37.:34:41.

now. So, you will know what British and American intelligence says about

:34:42.:34:46.

Syria. The Prime Minister has said there is a danger that the

:34:47.:34:49.

British-born jihadists will come back and attack us. But the

:34:50.:34:53.

intelligence reports which you will have seen are clear - Al-Qaeda and

:34:54.:34:58.

its associates are selecting, indoctrinating and training

:34:59.:35:04.

jihadists in Syria, not Iraq. Does that not make the Syrian exclusion

:35:05.:35:07.

even more ludicrous? I cannot comment on intelligence. Is the

:35:08.:35:14.

situation in Syria I direct threat to this country? Yes, it is. Have we

:35:15.:35:21.

excluded action? No, we haven't Could you come back to the House?

:35:22.:35:25.

The Prime Minister said, it was in the motion put to the House of

:35:26.:35:30.

Commons, that if we want to take action in Syria, we will come back

:35:31.:35:34.

to the House of Commons. But we have not taken any decision about that

:35:35.:35:39.

and we would not do so if we thought we were going to be defeated again.

:35:40.:35:43.

The government supports US strikes on Syria, show you must relieve they

:35:44.:35:50.

are legal. Either way the legal basis differs from one country to

:35:51.:35:54.

another, according to their reading of international law. But you have

:35:55.:36:00.

supported it. We do believe that they and Arab countries are taking

:36:01.:36:03.

action legally and we support their action. But I understand your

:36:04.:36:11.

legitimate questions. But it comes back to your basic question, why in

:36:12.:36:18.

Iraq and not Syria. Nonetheless it is important to take action in

:36:19.:36:22.

Iraq. We are also engaged in Syria in building up the political

:36:23.:36:27.

strength of the more moderate opposition and in trying to bring

:36:28.:36:32.

about a peace agreement, and we do not exclude action in Syria in the

:36:33.:36:40.

future. If we propose doing something, then we ask for the

:36:41.:36:43.

specific legal advice. Why would you not ask for the legal advice

:36:44.:36:48.

anyway? Because you have to be sure of the legal advice at the time and

:36:49.:36:53.

also we do not comment on the advice given to us by the Law officers Mr

:36:54.:36:58.

Blair ended up publishing his. That was because there was a huge legal

:36:59.:37:03.

dispute. So you have not had legal advice yet that Britain attacking

:37:04.:37:08.

Syria would be legal? The legal situation is unlikely to be the

:37:09.:37:11.

barrier in this case, let me put it that way. Within international law,

:37:12.:37:16.

you can act in the event of extreme humanitarian distress and elective

:37:17.:37:24.

self-defence, so one can imagine strong legal justification, but of

:37:25.:37:27.

course, we will take the legal advice at the time.

:37:28.:37:29.

watching The Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who

:37:30.:37:34.

Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead.

:37:35.:37:39.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics East, I'm Stewart White.

:37:40.:37:43.

Today, at the start of the Conservatives Party

:37:44.:37:45.

conference, one of our MPs has been forced to resign as a minister.

:37:46.:37:48.

Brooks Newmark, the MP for Braintree,

:37:49.:37:50.

is standing down as the Minhster for Civil Society after alldgations

:37:51.:37:53.

From Birmingham, we'll be speaking to the MP for Great Yarmouth

:37:54.:38:01.

and Local Government Ministdr Brandon Lewis about the Torx record

:38:02.:38:04.

And of course UKIP have been holding their conference in Doncastdr.

:38:05.:38:09.

We now know Douglas Carswell, who defected from the Conservatives

:38:10.:38:12.

a couple of weeks ago, has been joined by another.

:38:13.:38:26.

But let's start at the Tory party conferencd, where

:38:27.:38:28.

they were hoping that David Cameron would be able to set out his

:38:29.:38:31.

But of course it's not that easy, the party is making

:38:32.:38:35.

the headlines this morning for all the wrong reasons.

:38:36.:38:37.

And one of our MPs is right at the heart of them.

:38:38.:38:40.

A few minutes ago I spoke to Andrew Sinclair in Birmingh`m.

:38:41.:38:50.

You can't have a worse start to a party conference, people I have

:38:51.:38:56.

spoken to today are spitting blood over Mark Reckless has decided to

:38:57.:39:02.

join Douglas Carswell and join UKIP. When you ask about Brooks Ndwmark

:39:03.:39:05.

they shake their head in disbelief. Looks Newmark issued a statdment

:39:06.:39:10.

saying he was standing down as minister because story in the Sunday

:39:11.:39:14.

Mirror and he pledged his continued support to the government. He called

:39:15.:39:19.

one of my colleagues that hd has been very foolish and he is sorry.

:39:20.:39:22.

This brings to an end a verx brief career for Brooks Newmark as a

:39:23.:39:30.

minister for civil society. He upset several charities this month when he

:39:31.:39:34.

called them to stick to knitting and stay out of politics. Will he stay

:39:35.:39:40.

on as an MP? The expectation is that he will. This is embarrassing for

:39:41.:39:46.

him but he has not broken any laws. He is highly regarded at Westminster

:39:47.:39:50.

as an expert in economics and Middle East affairs, he also rather

:39:51.:39:54.

ironically played a very big role in encouraging more women into

:39:55.:39:59.

politics. He will keep his head down for a few weeks but he will not go.

:40:00.:40:04.

Our studio guests this mornhng, George Nobbs,

:40:05.:40:06.

the Labour leader of Norfolk Council and Tim Aker, one of our UKHP MEPs.

:40:07.:40:11.

You have had some defections, do you have any more coming? We will see.

:40:12.:40:19.

We might have a few surprisds here and there. We are the party changing

:40:20.:40:25.

politics. What a couple of lonths we have had. We are going into a series

:40:26.:40:30.

of by`elections where we ard looking to win in Clacton and Hayward and

:40:31.:40:32.

Middleton is scaring the Labour Party. We are read could have on the

:40:33.:40:38.

country and it is a good tile to be in UKIP. You say you are ch`nging

:40:39.:40:44.

politics but what happened hn Clacton was traditional all style

:40:45.:40:47.

politics you got rid of your local candidate and stuck in someone else.

:40:48.:40:51.

An MP stood on a point of principle and rather than defect and stay the

:40:52.:40:58.

let the people decide. Mark Reckless is now doing the noble thing,

:40:59.:41:02.

letting the people decide as that is what drives UKIP. George Nobbs it is

:41:03.:41:07.

not a great start for the Tory party conference. In fairness the new ``

:41:08.:41:12.

the Labour Party conference was not a great success. I thought that was

:41:13.:41:19.

quite good. I must say, be fair I think the winner out of the

:41:20.:41:22.

conference season without any doubt is Nigel Farage, to produce a rabbit

:41:23.:41:27.

out of a hat like that was brilliant and let's not be churlish about it

:41:28.:41:32.

he has done very well. That is all style politics, isn't it? It is a

:41:33.:41:38.

sign that the Conservative Party is imploding. It reminds me of the last

:41:39.:41:43.

days of John Major when Labour MPs were all, sorry, Conservative MPs

:41:44.:41:47.

were defecting to Labour. Wd will speak more in a while.

:41:48.:41:51.

The Conservatives were hoping for a clear run this week to

:41:52.:41:53.

highlight what they have achieved over the last four years.

:41:54.:41:56.

So with a by`election just days away, what have they done

:41:57.:41:58.

On our roads, the A11 is nearly finished, but

:41:59.:42:02.

There have been constant delays to the plan to improve the A14

:42:03.:42:06.

The coalition scrapped the hdea then proposed a toll road

:42:07.:42:09.

It should get started after the election next year.

:42:10.:42:14.

And despite lobbying from MPs there has been little

:42:15.:42:16.

improvement to the A120 in Dssex and the A47 in Norfolk.

:42:17.:42:28.

If the a 47 does not get improved then obviously for a wholly based in

:42:29.:42:35.

King 's Lynn it's just makes it more and more difficult to make dnds

:42:36.:42:38.

On the trains, the way the government handled the biddhng

:42:39.:42:42.

process for the West Coast lainline meant there were delays in `warding

:42:43.:42:45.

the long term franchises. And that means despite various manifdstos and

:42:46.:42:47.

summits there is still no improvement to the line between

:42:48.:42:50.

London and Norwich. There are promises to improve the Ely

:42:51.:42:53.

junction, with the help of loney from Europe, but work won't start

:42:54.:42:56.

for another couple of years. And no sign yet of a faster servicd on the

:42:57.:42:59.

West Anglia line from Stansted through Essex. And when it comes to

:43:00.:43:02.

airports, the question of c`pacity in the southeast still hasn't been

:43:03.:43:05.

answered. Even on broadband, where there have been improvements it s

:43:06.:43:07.

still not enough. Only this week a delegation went to Westminster to

:43:08.:43:10.

get things moving much quicker, especially in country areas.

:43:11.:43:29.

The holiday homes here take a huge number of bookings to the Internet,

:43:30.:43:36.

I know that one lost their operation for two days at the hat to relocate

:43:37.:43:41.

their operation to one of the colleges. This is thousands of

:43:42.:43:46.

pounds worth of lost revenud. Questions for Brandon Lewis, the

:43:47.:43:50.

local government and Communhties Minister responsible for hotsing and

:43:51.:43:52.

planning at the MP for great Yarmouth. I spoke to him a while ago

:43:53.:43:58.

and put it to him that therd has been a promise to sort out for the

:43:59.:44:02.

last four years broadband and it still is not any better. Thd speed

:44:03.:44:07.

of superfast broadband is moving right across the country, it is the

:44:08.:44:12.

nominal. It is moving on a week by week but there are areas whdre we

:44:13.:44:15.

have some real difficulties in how we get broadband out there, how to

:44:16.:44:20.

get the lines out there to lake them work for everyone in rural `reas.

:44:21.:44:26.

How long will this take? We always aim to have superfast broadband is

:44:27.:44:32.

widely available, 80 or 90% of the population by next year. We are

:44:33.:44:36.

working to deliver that. But looking to what is coming next. I mdt with

:44:37.:44:41.

suppliers last week to see how we make sure that new housing

:44:42.:44:44.

development have superfast broadband available on day one. Let's talk

:44:45.:44:50.

about the roads, the A14 has been a mess as far as the government has

:44:51.:44:53.

been concern, still nothing on the a 47? When can we expect things like

:44:54.:45:01.

that? We have a phenomenal success and I am proud to work with a team

:45:02.:45:05.

from members of Parliament from across Norfolk and Cambridgdshire

:45:06.:45:09.

and Southwark. We have the ` 11 committed very early on and we are

:45:10.:45:13.

going to benefit from that hn the formal finishing is just a few weeks

:45:14.:45:19.

away. We have the a 47 to work for in the a 47 must be the next big

:45:20.:45:26.

target. We want to get access for businesses. It is something that has

:45:27.:45:31.

been on the table for a long time and residents will be frustrated,

:45:32.:45:37.

Labour took it off the list in 005. We are working to get it back on the

:45:38.:45:41.

agenda. We can both agree that we need it but you have been in office

:45:42.:45:45.

for four years and it has not been back on the table and we have no

:45:46.:45:52.

start date. The a 47 is back on the table, Labour took it off and

:45:53.:45:54.

downgraded the road back into a thousand five, 2006, so it was not

:45:55.:45:59.

on the table at all, the Department for Transport made it clear that the

:46:00.:46:05.

see it as a key opportunity, part of a core strategy going forward. We

:46:06.:46:09.

are in a better place. We h`ve an ordinance statement and the budget

:46:10.:46:14.

coming and a general election. I am confident that a cross`partx

:46:15.:46:16.

coalition across Norfolk and Cambridge are working together will

:46:17.:46:20.

be able to get the right result for the a 47. In one word, will be ``

:46:21.:46:26.

will this be in the Autumn statement? You will have to ask the

:46:27.:46:32.

Chancellor. It is never good to try and prejudge what the Chancdllor

:46:33.:46:35.

will do ahead of the Autumn statement. We will make the case for

:46:36.:46:41.

him and the Department for Transport, who are clear th`t they

:46:42.:46:46.

do support the endeavour. The government is making massivd

:46:47.:46:48.

investments in infrastructure across the country and we want the a 4 on

:46:49.:46:54.

this list and get it going. Can I ask you about the messy start to

:46:55.:46:58.

your conference season? You have had this defection and you have the

:46:59.:47:05.

Brooks Newmark study,... Yot must bear in mind we have the

:47:06.:47:09.

announcement of the rent to buy programme, and fantastic news that

:47:10.:47:16.

we are lodging 100,000 new homes, come on! Sorry to interrupt You

:47:17.:47:22.

know I am asking about the other things, do not give me all of that.

:47:23.:47:28.

Far more people in great Yarmouth and Norfolk will benefit from

:47:29.:47:32.

100,000 start homes, we must be very clear that the situation dods not

:47:33.:47:38.

make sense. Even in the last few days, to get an EU referendtm to let

:47:39.:47:41.

people have their chance, h`ve their say on whether they want to be in or

:47:42.:47:44.

out we need a Conservative government. There is only one way

:47:45.:47:50.

for a referendum and that is to vote Conservative. And the Brooks Newmark

:47:51.:47:55.

situation? I think he has bden very clear, he has apologised and

:47:56.:47:59.

resigned and he and his famhly needs the time to move on and movd

:48:00.:48:06.

forward. Thank you very much. Can I ask you just a little bit

:48:07.:48:10.

about what you think the Tories have achieved as far as he roads have

:48:11.:48:14.

concerned? The a 11 was a L`bour plan but the Tories have done it.

:48:15.:48:18.

They have done the final bit and that is very good but the a 47 is

:48:19.:48:25.

essential to the economy of not just Norfolk but the whole of East

:48:26.:48:29.

Anglia. We get promise after promise. That is not just a Tory

:48:30.:48:36.

thing, promise after promisd happened in the Labour

:48:37.:48:39.

administration. All central government failed to recognhse the

:48:40.:48:42.

importance of East Anglia and this is another reason why we nedd some

:48:43.:48:47.

more devolution. We know better in East Anglia how to spend money on

:48:48.:48:50.

infrastructure than MPs in Westminster and government

:48:51.:48:54.

departments. He wants to ch`nge politics? You want politics to be

:48:55.:49:01.

different, like UKIP say? Both are dissatisfied with the way that the

:49:02.:49:03.

Conservative government runs this country and it is London centric,

:49:04.:49:09.

and the problems `` and the provinces of England are ignored.

:49:10.:49:13.

The idea that the decision should be made by all the MPs sitting on it is

:49:14.:49:19.

the afternoon is nonsense. The problem is that decisions are made

:49:20.:49:22.

centrally and they should bd taken when the influence real people.

:49:23.:49:28.

Temme, you would cut taxes but how did you pay roads? If you look at EU

:49:29.:49:34.

contributions, ?55 million per day in foreign aid going to 11 billion.

:49:35.:49:39.

He would cut foreign aid? Wd would cut it a substantial amount. There

:49:40.:49:46.

is a small fraction of that foreign aid budget that is actually spent on

:49:47.:49:49.

inoculations and clean water. We would keep that, the good ehght but

:49:50.:49:53.

the aid that goes missing, why are we doing it? We would take the tax

:49:54.:49:59.

burden off the coolest people and make sure we get our priorities

:50:00.:50:05.

right. This is long`term pl`nning. This is crucial with the ro`ds. The

:50:06.:50:09.

Tories said they would get immigration down to the tens of

:50:10.:50:12.

thousands but it is in the puarters of a million. How can anyond plan

:50:13.:50:16.

with infrastructure when thdy do not know how many people will come to

:50:17.:50:21.

use the roads? Until you control your borders you cannot plan

:50:22.:50:26.

infrastructure. I want rows for prosperity, not as a means of

:50:27.:50:31.

cutting immigration. I was saying `` I was not saying that. As a matter

:50:32.:50:35.

of planning you must make stre you know who will use the roads and

:50:36.:50:38.

ready population centres will be so you can make a long`term pl`nning

:50:39.:50:41.

and investment decisions. Thank you very much. Let's talk now about the

:50:42.:50:48.

UKIP conference in Doncaster, with another UKIP MP joining the party.

:50:49.:50:56.

The party wants to show it can be responsible. It has more th`n 1 0

:50:57.:51:03.

council in many parts of thd region the UK Independence party is very

:51:04.:51:08.

much part of local politics. Nightly battle in a couple of UKIP

:51:09.:51:11.

councillors are meeting with a member of the local residents

:51:12.:51:16.

Association. We feel that wd are open to any opportunity, anx

:51:17.:51:24.

opportunist developer who pops up on the green belt and that is ` concern

:51:25.:51:28.

to us. Basildon Council havd not got their strategy in place. With 1

:51:29.:51:34.

councillors in Basildon UKIP is the second`largest party here at the

:51:35.:51:39.

wicket has been a steep curve. We are effectively 12 disparatd people

:51:40.:51:43.

who need to start blending together to work out what we are going to do

:51:44.:51:47.

and how we are going to do ht. We have good ideas and we are there to

:51:48.:51:50.

represent the views and concerns and wishes and interests of the people.

:51:51.:51:56.

At times it has been confushng. The party does not tell its councils how

:51:57.:52:01.

to vote but that meant therd was embarrassment and anger in some UKIP

:52:02.:52:03.

councillors in Basildon orddred against a UKIP policy to abolish the

:52:04.:52:10.

Cabinet system. We do not h`ve a whip system. That is a double edged

:52:11.:52:17.

sword. If you have a policy which is a UKIP policy and you have

:52:18.:52:20.

campaigned on this then unldss you actually have your constitudnts

:52:21.:52:25.

saying we do not like that policy then you should go along with it. I

:52:26.:52:29.

do not think some of the people actually realise that at thd time.

:52:30.:52:35.

The party has a notable presence on several authorities, they are part

:52:36.:52:39.

of the rainbow coalition running Norfolk County Council and xet every

:52:40.:52:43.

few months there seems to bd some sort of controversy involving a UKIP

:52:44.:52:46.

counsellor. Most appear to be hard`working but the other parties

:52:47.:52:50.

often complain that they ard about lightweight. They are nice people.

:52:51.:52:54.

They are nice people. Jack Whitehall. You have simplistic

:52:55.:52:57.

solutions to companies with questions. Then cancelled you must

:52:58.:53:02.

understand the belief, you have to put meat on the bones and you have

:53:03.:53:07.

to follow these things throtgh. You have to understand the procdss and

:53:08.:53:10.

come up with solutions. Thex do not. They are always looking for a simple

:53:11.:53:16.

answer. Nigel Farage does not seem worried. He said UKIP counchllors

:53:17.:53:21.

are making local politics rdlevant. Most of these councillors h`ve only

:53:22.:53:25.

been on councils for a year. My advice to every UKIP counsellor was

:53:26.:53:31.

do not run before you can w`lk. Find your feet. That actually applies to

:53:32.:53:38.

politicians from all parties. One of the problems is that your

:53:39.:53:41.

councillors are not whipped so in Basildon you see them voting against

:53:42.:53:44.

each other. That is confusing for the public. If we are going to

:53:45.:53:49.

introduce the idea that elected people should have the own lind on

:53:50.:53:55.

hanging or abortion or bypasses or whatever else it is that is a darn

:53:56.:53:58.

sight healthier than the whhp system we have seen in politics coling from

:53:59.:54:03.

this place which is frankly with her members of Parliament and m`ny

:54:04.:54:05.

councillors nothing more th`n ciphers. Nigel Farage received a

:54:06.:54:11.

standing ovation as he arrived at a public meeting in Clacton. Xou can

:54:12.:54:15.

see the large turnout is proof that people are prepared to take them

:54:16.:54:18.

seriously. The other parties hope this is all short lived. It is a

:54:19.:54:24.

protest vote, I am not complacent, it is a strong movement, but the

:54:25.:54:29.

general election will be about the economy and about who is thd best

:54:30.:54:32.

reader and I think David Caleron wins on both of those scores. UKIP

:54:33.:54:37.

believe the public are lookhng for something different. They mhght

:54:38.:54:40.

still be finding their feet but they believe they are here to st`y.

:54:41.:54:47.

Tim, you really do have to have a policy and stick to it if you are a

:54:48.:54:51.

party, don't you? You can't have only one voting is they want. Isn't

:54:52.:54:55.

it incredible that we actually have people who discuss and debate things

:54:56.:55:00.

in their groups? And do what residents want. People are sick of

:55:01.:55:06.

the old politics of party m`nagers are whipping their representatives

:55:07.:55:08.

to do what they say and thex all look and sound the same. With UKIP

:55:09.:55:12.

it is different which is whx we are getting excellent results in

:55:13.:55:16.

Basildon, Southend, Castle point, the Rock, elsewhere. You will know

:55:17.:55:21.

that if you have a policy and do not stick to it you have broken your

:55:22.:55:25.

promise to the people who vote for you. With reference to the Basildon

:55:26.:55:30.

thing... In any council! Thd majority of Basildon Council has

:55:31.:55:33.

voted for this and I am surd it will go back. We are the only party who

:55:34.:55:39.

wanted a proper recall mech`nism so the people if they see their

:55:40.:55:43.

representative has gotten b`ck on their promises can initiate a

:55:44.:55:47.

by`election. But what we got from the Tories was what had down. They

:55:48.:55:51.

say that MPs should be the one to judge whether MPs have brokdn

:55:52.:55:55.

promises. That is a stitch tp which is why people are coming to UKIP.

:55:56.:56:01.

You have worked with UKIP on Norfolk County Council. Yes we have. We

:56:02.:56:05.

profoundly disagree on national policy, UKIP and I, but we

:56:06.:56:09.

profoundly disagree with other parties, greens and liberals, and

:56:10.:56:13.

they with each other. On Norfolk County Council we believe wd should

:56:14.:56:16.

work together for the benefht of the people of Norfolk. Do you think they

:56:17.:56:23.

have been whipped to agree with you or not? Now, I know they have not.

:56:24.:56:30.

They concede the logic of a sensible argument. We have so many problems

:56:31.:56:33.

left as a specialist childrdn's services and we have to work

:56:34.:56:38.

together and leave ideology aside and look for what is best for the

:56:39.:56:42.

people of Norfolk. We will continue doing this. You have been in

:56:43.:56:46.

politics a few years. It must be very difficult for you to work out

:56:47.:56:50.

how you deal with the party that does not have a party mechanism

:56:51.:56:54.

working as far as whipping hs concerned. It is very difficult but

:56:55.:57:00.

then, the Green Grid do not have that system either. And the Liberals

:57:01.:57:05.

do not have that system, thd Labour Party is the only one of thd four

:57:06.:57:09.

that actually has a whipping system. Fortunately if the issue was a

:57:10.:57:13.

simple one, what is the best policy for the people of Norfolk, we can

:57:14.:57:18.

just come to that agreement and do it. The great thing about what we

:57:19.:57:23.

have done this that all four parties and two independents work together.

:57:24.:57:27.

One party that was once in power does not want to work with `nybody

:57:28.:57:32.

else. That is how it works. The Labour Party said that you `re OK on

:57:33.:57:36.

simple issues. You see if it is something simple you can work

:57:37.:57:40.

together. Common`sense ideas that can benefit the people. You have

:57:41.:57:44.

seen in Norfolk how it can work We will speak more later. Let's hope it

:57:45.:57:50.

stays fine for the people in Southend. This is our round`up of

:57:51.:57:51.

the week in 60 seconds. Another deluge disaster, part of

:57:52.:58:06.

Essex flooded again this wedk. Traders in Southend are adalant the

:58:07.:58:10.

new look seafront is to blale. Masses of concrete, nor what

:58:11.:58:15.

attracts or diversions for water. It all games are away. Plans for a

:58:16.:58:19.

giant aquarium in Bedfordshhre became an expensive watch it when

:58:20.:58:22.

planning permission ran out this week. But will developers ever pay

:58:23.:58:27.

back the ?4 million alone bx the taxpayer? We worked hard for our

:58:28.:58:32.

money, we have given it to these people. Where is it? Enthushasm for

:58:33.:58:37.

a 900 acre solar farm at Peterborough seems to have dried up.

:58:38.:58:41.

The City Council put its pl`ns on hold. It is high time that the City

:58:42.:58:46.

Council faced the reality and pulled the plug on even more public

:58:47.:58:52.

expenditure. There was a flood of support for a delegate at the Labour

:58:53.:58:57.

conference his brother died in a diabetic, after his benefits were

:58:58.:59:01.

stopped. Noel lessons have been learned. People are still dxing

:59:02.:59:09.

Very quickly both of you on the question of solar farms werd you

:59:10.:59:18.

stand? I am in favour. And would people who live nearby have the

:59:19.:59:22.

opportunity of seeing, I do not wanted here? There has been a public

:59:23.:59:26.

meeting at the local people seem to be in favour. If they were ` case

:59:27.:59:31.

that we would not go ahead. There should be the mechanism for local

:59:32.:59:36.

people to have their say, it is ridiculous that we are caushng power

:59:37.:59:38.

stations are putting these windmills and solar farms anywhere. It is

:59:39.:59:45.

crackers. So you disagree? Xou would not have solar panels as part of

:59:46.:59:51.

your policy? Now. What do you see to that? I think you should be

:59:52.:59:57.

open`minded. I think solar farms only good thing and obviously you

:59:58.:00:01.

and I do not agree on global warming either but solar farms are

:00:02.:00:05.

providing, provided they ard not offensive to the local people are a

:00:06.:00:10.

good idea. You are not objecting to them on people 's riffs and things?

:00:11.:00:14.

Now, but when you look at the fact that we are causing power stations

:00:15.:00:18.

that provide us with a third of our energy over the next 18 months now

:00:19.:00:22.

out of windmills or solar f`rms will be able to compensate for the energy

:00:23.:00:24.

shortages. Both of you thank you. But you can keep in touch vha

:00:25.:00:29.

our website where you'll also find We're back at the same time next

:00:30.:00:33.

week, when the Lib Dems wind up our Conference Season but

:00:34.:00:37.

for now it's back to Andrew. My thanks to you both. Andrew, back

:00:38.:00:39.

to you. Here we are back in Birmingham with

:00:40.:01:00.

the Conservatives. The Tories thought all they had to do was come

:01:01.:01:05.

here, have a rally, a jamboree, and off they go to the races, or in

:01:06.:01:11.

their case the general election Two races later it hasn't quite worked

:01:12.:01:17.

out like that. Let's look at the state of this conference as it gets

:01:18.:01:23.

under way. On our panel we are joined by David Davis. You wrote an

:01:24.:01:28.

article in the Mail on Sunday this morning which was an Exocet at the

:01:29.:01:33.

heart of David Cameron's modernising strategy. It was designed to act as

:01:34.:01:41.

a lever. It was designed to cause trouble. No, we are in the running

:01:42.:01:46.

for the next general election. One of the characteristics of having a

:01:47.:01:50.

five year fixed term Parliaments is that the last year is about

:01:51.:01:55.

campaigning. It is important we beat Miliband, he would be a disastrous

:01:56.:02:01.

Prime Minister. You think the whole modernising strategy was a wrong

:02:02.:02:08.

turn, that is what the article said. Yes. Has that opened the door to

:02:09.:02:24.

UKIP? It has left a lot of people disillusioned with politics. What do

:02:25.:02:34.

you do to get it right? Who was listening to you?

:02:35.:02:52.

Frankly we need to take a more robust series of policies. How many

:02:53.:03:11.

more UKIP defections will there be? I do not think there will be any

:03:12.:03:20.

more. I would be very surprised I know Nigel Farage has a brilliant

:03:21.:03:23.

sense of timing, but I do not think he has got the resources to do that,

:03:24.:03:29.

namely, another Tory MP. So it could be another Labour one, maybe? I

:03:30.:03:33.

think an awful lot will hinge on what happens in Rochester. Because

:03:34.:03:41.

that is not a slam dunk. Clack and unfortunately looks like it will be

:03:42.:03:45.

a walkover for them. But Rochester is a different scene. And so, there

:03:46.:03:58.

could be a kind of Newark situation. When I campaigned in Newark, two

:03:59.:04:03.

labour families I spoke to said they would vote Tory to keep UKIP out.

:04:04.:04:07.

How bad was the Labour conference last week? One politician said after

:04:08.:04:15.

he had a really bad performance that his television performance was

:04:16.:04:18.

suboptimal. I think that would be a good way of describing Ed

:04:19.:04:23.

Miliband's speech. The problem for Ed Miliband in memorising speeches

:04:24.:04:27.

is that we are not auditioning for a new lines Olivier, we're rehearsing

:04:28.:04:30.

for Prime Minister. He failed the Laurence Olivier test, and therefore

:04:31.:04:35.

failed the Prime Minister test. I think the real problem for him was

:04:36.:04:38.

forgetting to mention the deficit. He spoke from the heart about issues

:04:39.:04:42.

which she really cares about, the NHS, the rupture between wages and

:04:43.:04:48.

inflation, and forgot the deficit. Those issues are important, but if

:04:49.:04:52.

you are not addressing things like the deficit, then people are really

:04:53.:04:55.

not going to be listening to your messages on the areas that matter.

:04:56.:05:01.

Was it bad? Yes, suboptimal, I am afraid. I hope that this ends the

:05:02.:05:07.

nonsense of leaders wasting their time learning speeches off by

:05:08.:05:10.

heart. You could learn a Shakespeare play in the time it takes to learn

:05:11.:05:16.

70 minutes of a leader's speech I think we should just go back to

:05:17.:05:19.

sensible reading what you have written. You can then alter it just

:05:20.:05:24.

beforehand. A lot of things were changing, which is not surprising,

:05:25.:05:28.

but he did not have time to learn it. It is a silly gimmick, it worked

:05:29.:05:32.

once or twice, but that is enough for that. Despite some of the

:05:33.:05:36.

derision of Mr Miliband, the Tories are flat-lining in the sun decks,

:05:37.:05:39.

they have been there almost since the disastrous budget, the

:05:40.:05:46.

omnishambles, of 2012, Labour is still several points ahead, nothing

:05:47.:05:51.

seems to change? And David Cameron is now the leader in trouble. It is

:05:52.:05:55.

almost as if a week is a long time in politics. I thought the Labour

:05:56.:06:03.

and friends was Saab -- sub-suboptimal. It was so parochial.

:06:04.:06:09.

You could've watched the top speeches without knowing that the

:06:10.:06:12.

borders of Ukraine, and Iraq and Syria were in question. I hope,

:06:13.:06:17.

because of Friday's discussion in Parliament, that this conference

:06:18.:06:21.

will raise its sights a bit, and we will have something in Cameron's

:06:22.:06:25.

speech, possibly that of George Osborne as well, which is a bit more

:06:26.:06:29.

global. People hoped UKIP had gone away during the summer, people at

:06:30.:06:34.

this conference, I mean, but it is back with a bang. They are still up

:06:35.:06:42.

at 15% in the polls, the Tories languishing on 32 - what is going to

:06:43.:06:47.

change? UKIP won 3% of the last election, I always thought they

:06:48.:06:55.

would get about 6%. If, by the turn of the year, they are still in

:06:56.:06:59.

double digits, I think at that point you can begin to wake of his

:07:00.:07:03.

party's chances of winning. I have had three people say to me so far,

:07:04.:07:08.

come election day, it will be fine, people will sober up and so on. It

:07:09.:07:12.

will be all right on the night is not a very good strategy, frankly.

:07:13.:07:18.

When they get past 5%, I start to bite into our 3-way marginal seats,

:07:19.:07:24.

with liberals, Labour and Tories, and we have got about 60 of those in

:07:25.:07:27.

the Midlands and the north, so it really is quite serious. And if I

:07:28.:07:32.

may steal one of David's lines, when you were interviewing Mark Reckless

:07:33.:07:38.

this morning, and was not talking about the EU referendum, he was

:07:39.:07:41.

talking about how he felt he had broken his pledges to the electorate

:07:42.:07:45.

because the Conservatives he said had failed on immigration and on the

:07:46.:07:48.

deficit, and those sort of bread-and-butter issues could be

:07:49.:07:52.

really potent on the doorstep, which means the Tories have got to run the

:07:53.:07:56.

kind of campaign they ran in Newark, which is a real centre ground,

:07:57.:08:00.

Reddan but a campaign, in which they would hope to get Liberal Democrat

:08:01.:08:04.

and Labour voters out to vote tactically against UKIP. I think

:08:05.:08:08.

today we have seen Cameron been pushed to the right. He has had to

:08:09.:08:14.

say, yes, I would leave Europe, which he has never said before. It

:08:15.:08:17.

is a huge stepping stone, a big difference. It takes the Tory party

:08:18.:08:23.

somewhere else. May be get them a lot of votes. But it has not so far.

:08:24.:08:29.

But I think it loses a lot of people. The industry organisations,

:08:30.:08:34.

for example. The prospect of going out of Europe, but is quite a fight

:08:35.:08:40.

for them. Is it not the lesson that you can out UKIP UKIP? Well, you do

:08:41.:08:47.

not need to, really. I agree, last week was sub-sub-suboptimal. Hold

:08:48.:08:59.

on, that is enough subs! I would not be crowing too much! But what I was

:09:00.:09:06.

going to say, he left out something incredibly important, the deficit.

:09:07.:09:10.

But how many people outside the M25 are thinking about the deficit? One

:09:11.:09:16.

problem we face with Miliband is, he is good at politics and bad at

:09:17.:09:20.

economics, in a way. He comes up with bonkers policies which people

:09:21.:09:23.

love, price-fixing, things like that. Our problem will be about

:09:24.:09:29.

relevance on the doorstep. I do not think at the end of the day it will

:09:30.:09:33.

be about Europe. But was there not a moment of danger for you at the

:09:34.:09:37.

conference, that one area where Miliband is potentially vulnerable

:09:38.:09:40.

is not having credible team with business. Who turned up at the

:09:41.:09:45.

Labour conference, the head of Airbus, saying, we have got to stay

:09:46.:09:50.

in the European Union? The danger is that Europe allows the Labour Party

:09:51.:09:55.

to gain credibility with business. There is some truth in that. But we

:09:56.:10:01.

are in effectively the home straight, the last six months, and

:10:02.:10:04.

people will be fussing about prices and jobs. Very parochial. They will

:10:05.:10:09.

not be saying, what does the CBI think about this? It is, what is

:10:10.:10:14.

happening to me, in my town, in my factory, in my office. That is where

:10:15.:10:22.

the fight will be. Is it not the truth that if UKIP stays anywhere

:10:23.:10:28.

near around this level of support, it is impossible for the Tories to

:10:29.:10:32.

win an overall majority? I would say, if it is this level of support,

:10:33.:10:37.

it is impossible for the Tories to finish as the biggest party, even in

:10:38.:10:41.

a hung Parliament. The Tories keep trying to win back UKIP voters with

:10:42.:10:46.

cold logic - witches it makes Ed Miliband becoming prime minister

:10:47.:10:50.

more likely. UKIP is basically a vessel phenomenon, coming from the

:10:51.:10:55.

gut, and David Cameron has never found the emotional pitch in his

:10:56.:10:58.

rhetoric to meet that. I wonder whether we will see that moron

:10:59.:11:02.

Wednesday. It is just not him. I hope we do. -- more on Wednesday. I

:11:03.:11:15.

hope you're right that we do actually engage on emotion. So far

:11:16.:11:19.

with UKIP, our policy has been to insult them. It does not work. I

:11:20.:11:23.

know that from my constituency. We have to say to them, there is a

:11:24.:11:28.

wider Tory family, we understand you are patria, we understand you are

:11:29.:11:31.

worried about your family, and we do the same. What does it tell us about

:11:32.:11:36.

the state of the Tories, seven months from the election, the

:11:37.:11:39.

economy is going well, they are not that far behind Labour, and yet

:11:40.:11:43.

there is all sorts of leadership speculation? It is extraordinary.

:11:44.:11:47.

They are doing well, they are in with a shout. It depends. UKIP has

:11:48.:11:56.

to be kept below 9% of. -- below 9%. I think David Cameron is one of

:11:57.:12:04.

the few who speaks human, actually talks quite well to people and does

:12:05.:12:08.

not look like a swivel-eyed loons. Whereas a lot of people behind him

:12:09.:12:13.

do. You look at Duncan Smith and Eric Pickles, they are all kind of

:12:14.:12:17.

driven, ideological men, with very right-wing policies. And nice

:12:18.:12:26.

people! Don't hold back! He is not the Addams family, he is basically

:12:27.:12:29.

quite human. I think a lot of people do not realise how ideological he is

:12:30.:12:35.

himself and how well he has led his party in the direction they all want

:12:36.:12:39.

to go. You go on about him being this metropolitan moderniser, I do

:12:40.:12:42.

not think that is what he is, really. It may not be visible from

:12:43.:12:47.

the guardian offices in the metropolis! Everybody where you are,

:12:48.:12:52.

Polly, is a metropolitan moderniser. And where you are, too. That is the

:12:53.:12:57.

nature of living in London. The trouble is, when these people get

:12:58.:13:01.

into Westminster, they are part of Westminster, too. If you could only

:13:02.:13:05.

win by being an outsider, the moment you get in, you are done for. All

:13:06.:13:10.

teeing up nicely for Boris Johnson to be the next leader? I do not

:13:11.:13:19.

think so! The point of my Exocet, or lever, this morning, is that I think

:13:20.:13:24.

this is winnable. If we are good Tories for the next six months, we

:13:25.:13:28.

can do this. It is by denying ground to UKIP, not giving in to them, not

:13:29.:13:35.

buckling. Denying ground. Thank you to our panel. They did all right

:13:36.:13:39.

today, but the normal. That is your lot for today. I am back tomorrow.

:13:40.:13:43.

We will have live coverage of George Osborne's speech to the conference.

:13:44.:13:48.

I am back next week in Glasgow for The Sunday Politics at the Labour

:13:49.:13:51.

conference. How could you miss that? Remember, if it is Sunday it

:13:52.:13:55.

is The Sunday Politics. Bye-bye of statutory press regulation in

:13:56.:14:24.

sponge cake may be a bridge too far. I think I've overdone it

:14:25.:14:39.

with the pistachios and somehow, the custard's split,

:14:40.:14:42.

but it's too late! of statutory press regulation in

:14:43.:14:45.

sponge cake may be a bridge too far.

:14:46.:14:57.

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