30/10/2016 Sunday Politics East


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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.


Theresa May says she wants to help people who are


"just about managing" - so should she reverse


George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people


Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,


says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.


So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?


Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation


into her use of a private email server - is this the boost


Shoring up our coastline. chances of winning the White House?


A pioneering scheme to save a giant gas plant


Now it is just a question of building that runway with the


political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio


on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political


panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,


'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two


new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant


in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday


was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British


economy is in rude health This morning, the Business


Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given


to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest


for there to be tariff barriers to the continent


and vice versa. So, what I said is that our


objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets


in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without


bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach


those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle


by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has


been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by


making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for


the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in


the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of


incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are


absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most


productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most


productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade


unions and the business organisations, and everybody who


campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their


future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge


difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make


things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing


sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.


I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow


business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims


the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a


small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs


in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're


really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,


and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t


ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job


security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors


as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important


they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you


say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that


what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole


industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he


had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our


industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered


piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,


actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what


is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on


science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You


must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an


industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say


industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you


disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he


has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in


general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with


that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let


him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we


need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and


joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That


was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed


support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is


not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there


was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to


be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you


claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to


be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I


would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances


that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of


what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the


single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs


Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very


good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant


investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is


some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would


like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what


would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with


the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain


competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg


Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we


do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about


reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're


going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only


those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention


of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a


competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave


them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest


Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made


strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise


corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could


you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our


vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong


manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at


Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,


well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't


have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union


laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing


investment. Remember, the last government took away the


Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed


corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill


economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.


I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is


left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid


point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could


say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he


could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was


enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving


training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not


know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is


if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government


says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an


industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't


made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an


impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure


this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of


millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I


spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to


Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that


Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,


its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some


bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk


away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -


based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position


because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want


to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a


smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to


articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think


the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were


anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an


objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its


right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one


thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this


morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of


financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for


skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial


investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal


under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a


financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would


be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just


released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.


The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited


about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would


be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded


as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal


about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about


what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff


free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is


where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how


the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's


negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.


It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We


are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.


Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare


claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst


encouraging people into work by making work pay.


But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work


incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?


Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,


as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.


Theresa May says she wants a country that works


for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.


It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them


to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out


and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes


But now some in her party are worried that the low earners


will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system


originally set up to encourage more people into work.


We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit


Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget


to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.


Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs


in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.


I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might


be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,


Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand


To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,


and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions


Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.


Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan


that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.


One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system


That is how much you can earn before your credit


As the Government has sought to save money,


both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,


both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,


that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.


The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.


That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep


It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.


What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?


The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.


If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer


budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains


in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,


recipients will be hit by annual deductions.


Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.


A dual-earning couple with two children under four,


with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other


working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20


hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.


Hit most by the changes would be a single parent


with a child under four, working full-time


I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given


the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.


What I would like to see is an increase in the work


allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.


That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,


because they are the people we need to absolutely make


The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs


are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.


A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact


analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures


Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect


of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.


But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit


the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.


What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first


time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year


because these reforms actually do make sense.


What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people


off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people


earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this


People are coming off welfare and into work.


Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve


The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple


Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right


that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,


for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have


I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,


because is costing us an awful lot of money.


With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's


new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,


its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it


And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,


Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side


of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit


from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed


as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed


because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going


to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for


being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus


on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic


terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is


the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this


right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the


direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too


much money out of that group of people when there are other areas


which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit


is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to


stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were


there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it


should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to


stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but


that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but


first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis


of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant


and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I


do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised


that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that


pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing


the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost


us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another


5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind


you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in


2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a


week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes


that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.


What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and


election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us


today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest


in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.


Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose


benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too


high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the


moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at


65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will


face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.


The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand


is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to


get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into


work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in


hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have


a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same


commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty


going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What


happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax


credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe


given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point


where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,


it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the


summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise


the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being


higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the


consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take


collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,


but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.


There was another attempt before the spending review last year to


increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed


to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last


year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of


that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if


we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is


singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the


paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of


the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a


diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate


will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I


will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you


put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed


it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed


circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne


introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe


so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I


don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax


threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is


in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,


and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to


improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green


paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes


necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be


done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work


and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort


our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make


sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what


you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would


that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on


in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would


it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is


first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where


they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the


re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the


IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,


and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,


because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less


incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We


don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I


would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.


-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would


prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold


razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,


getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal


Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written


by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic


and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that


people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take


on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?


This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that


enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five


deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to


Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,


genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to


make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think


she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have


a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto


commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the


personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to


an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock


that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?


What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now


the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations


Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as


a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.


It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about


ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but


after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and


allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the


triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under


pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money


out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on


the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are


up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by


Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay


for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock


and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?


As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the


intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.


Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -


who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.


That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took


against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist


Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November


2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council


of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British


In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker


who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.


From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been


involved in a number of community organisations, including


the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,


Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education


and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.


But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called


Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local


community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences


he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.


The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally


outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses


terrorists - as particularly sinister.


The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise


Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that


Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.


We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer


on their Religious Education Committee.


The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that


Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group


in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.


I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam


Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a


statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject


the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and


unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam


What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At


the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he


belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque


would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be


saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and


extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very


important decision and a very important judgment by the judge


First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer


of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of


things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand


by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody


who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential


libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and


people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's


some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who


promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a


step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing


within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really


concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were


consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What


is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It


comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for


them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist


to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a


revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And


then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.


We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,


growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political


ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular


problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the


theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that


excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good


to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi


problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of


mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on


the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll


and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are


speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we


have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in


prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But


there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will


show one face to the community because they actually need that for


a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to


operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their


constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these


people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.


And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque


stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you


surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with


Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that


decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with


extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I


don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge


that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an


extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have


a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a


law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated


violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there


is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into


question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other


Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to


say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties


from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure


could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make


it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg


has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have


to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they


say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.


But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner


and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose


them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.


It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.


Later in the programme, our hospitals are


buckling under the strain, trying to make savings


while they are dealing with the beds crisis?


There is no winter pressures any more.


And a new way to protect our coasts, but only


if the Government will stump up some money.


Well, here with me today, James Cleverly, the Conserv`tive MP


And for the Liberal Democrats, Dave Hodgson.


The only elected mayor in this region.


But all that might change if this man gets


This week, Sajid Javid was hn Suffolk in Norfolk trying to save


The local government secretary met councillors


and business leaders in a l`st-ditch effort to keep the deal alive.


Under the Government's proposals, over 30


years, hundreds of millions of pounds would be devolved from


Councillors would get new powers over housing,


infrastructure, transport and economic development.


But it is by no means a dond deal, especially in


Norfolk, where four councils have already opted out.


The Tory leader of the county council is now calling


for an debate early next month before a final decision is


If this deal doesn't happen, then there will, ultimately, I think


the fewer opportunities because local leaders will be


turning their backs on hundreds of millions of new


It is control of local skills funding,


transport funding, and why would any local


leader turn their back on


Dave Hodgson, as an elected mayor, presumably you are all


Well, the people of Bedford voted for it.


We had a referendum, we decided we wanted an elected


If the people of Norfolk and Suffolk decides they


want a different system, they should have that.


I don't think the system should be imposed against how they


You didn't say whether you think you are in favour


I campaign against elected mayors, but the people of


Why is it that the Government is so set on


I think that's one of the things we saw from the clip is that a number


of those issues, skills, economic development,


And the combination of thosd things in a local area will vary area to


Local solutions, supported financially from central Government,


but tailored for local needs, I think it is a really good mix


Because actually, if you are going to be


devolving really big chunks of money which are going to be spent


regionally, then actually you need someone who is accountable `cross


that whole region to be the person that front setup.


And I think that is why the Secretary of State was


Where you have a point of accountability who can spend that


But surely if the people in Norfolk and Suffolk have a different


accountable model and we re`lly believe in devolving power, they


should be able to decide thdir model and actually put that to thd


Secretary of State and say, this is the model we want.


And we shouldn't be hung up on elected mayors


We should look at the devolution as the


primary task and actually get the economy moving.


Don't you think it is good to have a focal point?


It works in Bedford, but I think I can


Norfolk and Suffolk there isn't a focal point necessarily.


And I think it will be actu`lly more of a


And it seems to be the thing that is stopping the deal.


If everybody wants this devolution, if


this is the only thing, surely there's a way round ht.


Everybody seems to be talking about Norfolk


and Suffolk and Cambridgeshhre, what about Essex?


Well, the idea of a Greater Essex region, and Essex


But I think one of the challenges with


Essex is, though we have Chdlmsford as our capital city, actually Essex


It doesn't really have that central mass.


And I think it is shown that


some of the needs and requirements of South Essex, which is much more


urban, very different from the north, which is much more rural.


But if we listen to what Sajid Javid said, they are going to


To make it clear, I am ambivalent on the


But I do completely understand the Government's


position, when they are sayhng, if we are going to hand across really


significant spending power, then we need to note that the people


spending that money can be held to account.


It is one of the fundamentals of democracy.


And it is really difficult to hold a mix of


district, town, parish and county councils.


one of the things that the Government is quite keen on seeing.


The challenge of managing our coastline.


on a scale never before seen in the UK is being


planned for a stretch of


The aim of the plan is to improve sea defences near


one of the biggest gas terminals in Britain.


With a new technique called sandscaping.


But the council needs help from the Government to pay for


It's a vital piece of National infrastructure.


Nearly a third of all the g`s we use is piped into


Unthinkable that this could fall into the sea.


But that is exactly what is at stake.


Sea defences have failed, beach levels have dropped.


Which is why a radical solution to protect


the terminal and the neighbouring villages of Walcott and Bacton,


The province of South Holland are examining innovative


Waves of coastal maintenancd and protection using the sand motor.


On the Dutch coast, huge qu`ntities of


sand have been dredged and brought ashore.


The natural movement of the


waves and tides then carries this sacrificial material down the coast,


maintaining beach levels and providing


It is not just a little bit of sand, it


I think we are so close now that I cannot see it is not


It hasn't happened as quickly as I would


have liked, or indeed as the


terminal would like, which hs why they are having to put some


temporary protection in casd of winter storms this year.


At Bacton, 2.3 million cubic metres of sand


It gets a qualified welcome from Richard


Hollis, who recently spent ?250,000 on rock defences


to protect his caravan park.


If you look at the Dutch, they do the sandscaping, but they also


practice drainage along the top of the cliff.


And a hard defence further down to stop the main wash


The estimated cost of the s`nd escaping is around ?30


North Norfolk Council needs to raise approximately ?6 million to protect


It is facing a shortfall of up to 3 million.


Autumn Statement to see whether the Government


We also want to see whether the gas companies are prepared to


But without contributions from Government and


the gas companies, this will not go ahead.


The scheme, which would be ` first for Britain, has the


If the funding can be agreed, work could start as soon as next year.


Well, we did ask to speak to Suffolk MP, but she was not able to talk


Mr Cleverly, do you think that, there you are, you


As we have seen from the statement, the


And I know MPs have lobbied for funding,


some more successfully than


others - my colleague Brandon Lewis I know was successful


getting funding for his part of the Norfolk coast.


So, yes, Central Government does have a role to play.


And obviously so do the private sector.


And so, it needs to be a team effort.


I think that proposal is very interesting.


It is the kind of thing we will look to support.


How do you decide what you are going to save?


Are you going to save the g`s terminal or


Through lobbying, Brandon Lewis has been


Why you choose Brandon Lewis' bits of the coast, rather


than Norman Lamb's and the villages there, I think you cannot jtst


decide piecemeal about who can lobby best.


That is not the way to


Isn't there a question about what you save?


Whether it is an industrial site like the gas terminal?


But if you have lobbying to prioritise one area, surdly we


It doesn't seem that shot of money in the grand


And what I don't want to do is for that to be eroded


It would nice to be nearer the coast,


but if we don't do this, we are going to be


It is not just about who is the most successful at lobbying.


It is a good metaphor for the kind of decisions


that always have to be made at Government level anyway, which is


you can't do everything you might want to do, so you have to


I know Norman will be lobbyhng hard for his part of the


coastline, and it is about laking sure that central government


recognise there is a strong case to be made locally.


But you can't protect absolttely every inch of


coast, you have to focus on the things


of the most significant in


And you also have to decide what you are going to


save because the problem moves down the coastline as well, doesn't it?


Now, the state of our health services.


Despite making huge savings, the majority of acute


hospitals in this region can't balance their books.


This year, totalling ?336 million across the


The highest single deficit is at Addenbrooke's in Cambridge.


Which expects to see a hole in its


finances of ?74 million by the end of the year.


They are having to make savhngs and facing


Even before we reached the critical winter period,


black alerts, where there are no beds available, are becoming the


At times, health services fdel like they are on life support.


The strain of having to makd savings where providing care for increasing


numbers of patients is beginning to show.


Since the start of the year, hospitals like Norfolk and Norwich


and the Queen Elizabeth in King's Lynn have


had months of being on


black alert, when the hospital is completely full and no bdds are


Earlier this month, four of Essex's hospitals were affected,


and there has been a month period at Addenbrooke's in Cambridge, too.


Which brings into question whether the phrase winter crisis sthll


There is no winter pressures any more.


Numbers of attendances through A E continue


At Northampton General's dahly bed management meeting, every


purple line represents a patient who is waiting at A E for more


Thanks, firstly, for Wednesday, Thursday,


Here, they have more than 100 patients who are actually wdll


In the first eight months of this year, almost 40,000


bed days were lost at Northamptonshire's main hospital


because patients where they are longer than the needed to bd.


One of the highest figures in the country.


A large part of the problem is caused by so-called bed blockers,


people who have to stay in hospital longer than they need to because


care can't be found for them at home.


And I know people on the wards have been saying that they wanted to get


Because there weren't enough carers in place.


The Government wants to


bring together health and social care services that were


traditionally funded by local authorities


to try and reduce the


But our councils are struggling to cope.


If you look at the Better Care Fund.


If you look at the things wd are doing with the health and wdll-being


board, and you look at how we are looking to change thhs,


that can go part of the way to addressing the


But in the longer term, we are going to have to havd a


conversation about the amount of money we put into servicds.


To care for a couple like the Kings, Suffolk


County Council has already had to plug a ?500 million


shortfall this year in


And Norfolk is facing a ?7 million hole over the


The pressure on social care has grown.


We have seen recurring cuts to cancel budgets


that pay for those services by and large.


quarter fewer older people are receiving that kind of treatment


The East of England has a particularly fast


The number of over 65 is is set to rise by 20%.


Over the next decade, which is more than all other groups combined.


And that does place additional pressure


And it is becoming increasingly difficult for our


hospitals to follow Governmdnt plans and deliver everything to everyone.


The Government wants to keep its health


budget down and has asked for savings.


Many hospitals in our region are saving more than


Yet despite that, only two of them are managing to


balance their books, and the rest are running deficits.


It is true that in parts of the country, demand


has gone up by more than they anticipated.


But there are lots of things we can do and are doing very successfully


to help hospitals control their budgets.


Difficulties in accident and emergency are all too f`miliar.


But maybe some people do not really need to be here.


There should be another way to solve the problem.


This week, Broomfield Hospital in Chelmsford got tough in


Telling some prospective patients to go elsewhere.


It is something we may see lore of as our


health services face difficult decisions ahead.


We pay less for our health care than most countries in


But I think there is a management issue.


It is about working with


The front door to the health service is via social care.


We have had the sustainable transformation plan,


where we're meant to be working together with the health service.


Or communication between he`lth and local government.


Don't we have to put them both in the same basket?


And say one person organises social care and the health service?


But there hasn't been that integration.


Yes, we do need to do that `nd it needs to be under one


basket and one heading to gdt them to work together.


But it hasn't happened so f`r, so the idea of the


We have seen, in my view, from my perspective, the


health service just saying, we are going to do it.


And occasionally asking for some data, but very late


Should it be local or should it be national?


If we get the elected mayors is


shouldn't they have the powdr of the health service?


Again, I'm going to get in trouble with my whips


because I keep agreeing with Dave on a number of issues,


but I do think that there ndeds to be close


integration of the whole provision of health in a local area.


From GP surgery preventing people going to


hospitals, but also social care to enable people to leave hospital


When you are putting big money into a local area,


that accountability is so very important.


So perhaps, as we are starthng to see in Manchester, local


identified politicians, whether they be mayors or other


models, perhaps an evolution of a Police and Crime


Commissioner, could hold th`t money and be accountable for how ht is


But they haven't got enough money, whoever runs it.


I would say this, there is lore money going into the


National Health Service than at any point in its history.


There are more people using the National Health


There are more people using it, but the Government has met the


commitment that NHS England asked for over the course of this


It looks as though NHS England got the wrong


But there are some things we need to do.


I think there are some issuds about structures, management,


and also about the habits of health users.


We do need more money but wd also need to run the system diffdrently.


To have that risk aversion where people go to A and they go


from a care home because thdy can't get the Dr to say they don't need to


So we are seeing lots of people turn up.


Bedford Hospital has 74 ambtlances turn up on


That can't be right, when many of those may not have


Presumably, they had to quete and then there weren't ambulances


available, so it has a knock-on effect?


But it is far more expensivd to treat people if


In the clip, we saw people who didn't need to go


Some of the care staff is to try and integrate that and


say, if the hospital had some people actually


in the care homes, you


could say they don't need to go to hospital.


You could could treat them where they are.


It needs to be working together from the first principles.


We have to do something. But who will have responsibility for the


money? Some will devolve, Essex won't? We will have to get tsed to


the fact that there will be different systems of Governlent


across the country. Elected mayors, we are not going to have a one size


fits all. That is probably right but we will have to get used to it. They


must talk about it. A new 21-mile stretch


of the England Coast Path rtnning from Sea Palling to Hopton-on-Sea


has been opened I think it is very important that


people who enjoy the paths respect the paths in the interest


of the owners alongside the paths. New research shows single


parents in Milton Keynes are owed ?12 million


MPs are worried that the new child maintenance service won't hdlp.


Before the new system is fully rolled out,


are there any tweaks we


can suggest to the central Government to make


A high-tech firm in Huntington has decided to expand abroad following


the voted to leave the European Union.


Enocam needs engineers, but so


few people from the EU are applying for jobs


here now, it's decided to


And an Essex MP has been reprimanded in Parliament for heckling Jeremy


Corbyn during Prime Minister's Question Time.


You are imperilling your own health, man.


It is a source of great concern to me.


There is an honour which is, I won't on a family programle


give it the full name, but I was told off by the Speaker


criticism of the leader of the opposition, yeah.


He has a very sharp sense of humour, a very good sense of humour.


And you didn't see it on the footage,


did the traditional kind of slight bow to the head, and he bowdd back,


The other things which came up in our 60 Seconds,


we are talking about all sorts of problems, talking about


Not just Brexit, but the skills and the


And I go round companies and there is a


difficulty in getting enginders and having the right skills to allow


I don't know details, but I know we to have our engineering


engineering base built on, and we need the skills to


If you talk to people, they will Say that


lots of people are training to be engineers.


But you look at the North Sda, you look at this particular


business, it is a problem gdtting the right training to peopld.


One of the things I find very frustrating


is we spent years through the ' 0s telling youngsters that unldss they


wore a suit to work and is had a degree


wore a suit to work and is had a degree that they weren't valued.


We had this whole thing abott half the population having to go to


There are some really fulfilling, well-paid, important


jobs in things like engineering and that kind of stuff.


Well, both of you, thank you very much for being with


You can keep in touch via our website.


Barely more than a week now until polling day,


and a new revelation rocks the US Presidential election campaign.


If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just got more bizarre.


The FBI have reopened their investigation into Hillary Clinton's


use of private email servers whilst she was Secretary


of State, after the discovery of further emails.


Though not on her laptop or even the State Department.


Donald Trump is saying that it's bigger than Watergate -


so could it swing the election in his favour?


We spoke to top US pollster, Frank Luntz.


The FBI investigation is happening so late in the election process


that it would be very difficult to derail a Clinton victory.


That said, if there is one thing that could keep Hillary Clinton


from the presidency, it's an FBI investigation.


But there's still only four states that really matter, Florida, Ohio,


Right now, Clinton has beyond the margin of error leads


This would have to have a truly significant impact for the election


There is a point about a week ago when I was prepared to say that


Clinton had a 95% chance of winning this election.


Based on what has happened in the last 48 hours,


It is still very likely, but I wouldn't bet on it.


I thought the 2000 election would be the best election of my lifetime,


And then I thought 2008 would be amazing, because we had two


challenger candidates and the first African-American President.


It is ugly, it's painful, it is as negative as anything


The public is angry, the country, overall, is frustrated.


But for entertainment value, these candidates probably should


have charged us money, because it's better than any movie


at ever seen, it's better than any TV show.


That was Frank Luntz. He may be right or wrong about Mrs Clinton


still having an 80% chance of winning. I would bet on an 80%


chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to a high-profile American pollster and


strategist last night and he took a rather different view to Frank


Luntz. He thought, and I think some other high-profile commentators


agree, that this is actually much more serious than some people


realise. There are an awful lot of undecided voters out there looking


for an excuse to vote Trump. They do not like what they see in either


candidate. But because this FBI probe is not going to conclude


before the election, the question, the doubt over Hillary Clinton,


gives them an excuse to back Trump. The thing that will play on the


minds of the voters is, could the 100 day honeymoon turning to the 100


day divorce? Which even be impeached? It may give some people


an excuse not to vote for Mrs Clinton. It could provide a problem


in terms of energising her base The battle ground almost matters more


than the polls. Florida and Pennsylvania have been trending to


Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win both. He does not get in without


both. He needs both. Just coming up in the latest BBC News, the


Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs Clinton is now only one point ahead


in the national poll. One point Even given my caveat that the state


battles are most important. That is incredibly close? It is. Polls


yesterday showed Trump nationally closing of. -- up. There is a clear


trend and movement. This has reinforced everything that people


who have a problem with Hillary Clinton know about Hillary Clinton.


Trump is running this insurgent campaign. We have seen at here with


Brexit. If you are running an insurgent campaign, you want to be


against the ultimate establishment insider and that is what Hillary


Clinton is. I suggested it was bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of


the FBI is interesting as well. This is a separate investigation into a


former congressman, Anthony Wiener, who had done all sorts of things. He


seemed to be sex text thing a minor. A 15-year-old girl. The FBI


investigate. They get his laptop to see what else he has been too. In


the course of that, his wife, now separated, the closest adviser to


Hillary Clinton, they find on the laptop e-mails involving the Clinton


server to her. And yet the FBI cannot, it needs now a separate


warrant to access these e-mails It hasn't got that yet. It has got a


warrant to do the congressman e-mails. On the basis of not knowing


the content, this has happened. Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican,


this guy. Earlier this year he was being praised to the hilt by


Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is a nightmare for her. You described


the whole sequence. There is nothing definitive to doubt in this


sequence. All he is saying is he has discovered more e-mails in effect.


They are from the congressman's former wife. On Anthony Wiener's


laptop, which apparently she used sometimes. But what that shows is


that for all the scrutiny of modern politicians, they cannot escape


caricature. And as Tim was just saying, her weakness is perceived to


be secretive, elitism and complacency about that elitism. And


so just the announcement of a reopening of the investigation so


fuels that caricature, you have just revealed a poll giving her a 1%


lead. That must be related to what has happened. It is without a shred


of evidence that she has done anything wrong. You can see how


because people only see things encourage kids, that is deadly


serious. -- in caricature. An American friend of mine said we have


got our October surprise but we don't know what it is. The FBI must


surely come under massive pressure. It did its -- it did this against


the Justice Department. The difficulty the FBI had was that this


information, for what it's worth, it came to them. Were they not to have


said something and it worked to have come out later, they would have been


accused of a massive cover-up. They are dammed if they do, dammed if


they don't. There is still time for another surprise. And early November


surprise. Who knows if there might still be something that comes out on


Donald Trump? This is the first election where I can remember we


have had two October surprises already. There are is stuff about


tapes knocking around about Donald Trump saying racist things. The


Clintons have got a lot of friends. It would be a big surprise if we did


not see anything else in the next few days.


Just when you think it could not get more interesting, it has. There has


been plenty in the papers lately about the Ukip leadership saying


unpleasant things about each other. But what about Mr Farage himself?


What's he up to? Well, on BBC Two tonight we may


find out the answer. Well, I'm led to believe


she's very experienced. But I don't think Strictly Come


Dancing is for me. That is, unless, of course,


you fancy popping a cheeky zero No, I don't think Strictly


Come Dancing is for me. Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just


lost your programme one viewer. I might have nothing to do these


days but, realistically, Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It


is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel Farage gets his life back. A number


of runners and riders. Let's come straight down to it. Who would be


the next leader of Ukip? Probably Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite.


The one who has the backing, not very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim


Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a big donor. The best of a rather weak


lot. I think Paul Nuttall should squeak through. I interviewed all


three of them this week. Mr Cassandra is a lively character and


he knows how to make a few headlines. With a bit of money


behind him, anything is possible. This is a guy who has been to the


States, who has literally studied what Trump has done. Pees on


secondment for the time being. The guy who is his line manager is one


of Donald Trump's campaign stop He is extraordinarily right-wing. I am


told he kept a picture of Enoch Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater


is one of his heroes, for example. There are other candidates. I would


suggest, put out as a hypothesis, Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst


nightmare. They are more vulnerable in the North. Paul Nuttall is from


Merseyside, a working-class background, performs well on


television. He is a really good interviewee. He is one of the best


around in politics at the moment. However, I think whoever gets it has


a massive task. The clip of this Nigel Farage satire partly shows


why. His dominance was overwhelming. He, in many ways, did a brilliant


job at keeping the show on the road. The trouble for all new political


parties is keeping it going is tough. A very different party, the


SDP, with all those glamorous figures in it, lasted eight years,


something like that. I think they are in real trouble at the moment


because of the implosion we have been seeing in front of our eyes and


the ideal -- ideological splits Whoever gets it will face a tough


tussle. All three of the main contenders want to put Nigel Farage


in the House of Lords. They were falling over themselves to soak up


two farads. That is how you win this election.


Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting his money on? He said he supports


Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He


thinks it is terribly disorganised, dysfunctional and doesn't want a


great deal to do with it for the foreseeable future.


It is not quite Trump the Clinton but it is interesting. That is it.


The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. And all of next week. Jo Coburn will


be your next Sunday because I am off to the United States to begin to


rehearse presenting the BBC's US election night coverage on the th


of November. It will be here on BBC One, BBC


world, BBC News Channel and BBC online.


Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


A stone stained with blood and beset with a curse.


The Moonstone is of inestimable value in India.


Its appointed guardians would move heaven and earth to reclaim it


Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.


You've got to do something! It's only you that can!


He's a scientist, brilliant apparently.


But you may be bringing people over here who did things during the war.


I will not work for you. I will not work for the British Government


Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.


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