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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
Theresa May says she wants to help people who are
"just about managing" - so should she reverse
George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people
Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,
says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.
So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?
Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation
into her use of a private email server - is this the boost
Shoring up our coastline. chances of winning the White House?
A pioneering scheme to save a giant gas plant
Now it is just a question of building that runway with the
political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio
on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political
panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,
'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two
new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant
in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday
was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British
economy is in rude health This morning, the Business
Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given
to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest
for there to be tariff barriers to the continent
and vice versa. So, what I said is that our
objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets
in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without
bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach
those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle
by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has
been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by
making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for
the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in
the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of
incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are
absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most
productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most
productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade
unions and the business organisations, and everybody who
campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their
future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge
difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make
things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing
sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.
I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow
business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims
the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a
small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs
in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're
really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,
and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t
ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job
security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors
as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important
they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you
say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that
what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole
industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he
had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our
industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered
piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,
actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what
is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on
science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You
must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an
industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say
industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you
disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he
has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in
general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with
that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let
him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we
need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and
joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That
was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed
support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is
not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there
was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to
be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you
claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to
be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I
would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances
that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of
what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the
single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs
Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very
good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant
investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is
some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would
like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what
would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with
the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain
competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg
Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we
do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about
reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're
going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only
those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention
of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a
competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave
them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest
Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made
strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise
corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could
you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our
vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong
manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at
Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,
well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't
have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union
laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing
investment. Remember, the last government took away the
Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed
corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill
economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.
I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is
left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid
point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could
say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he
could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was
enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving
training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not
know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is
if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government
says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an
industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't
made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an
impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure
this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of
millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I
spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to
Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that
Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,
its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some
bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk
away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -
based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position
because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want
to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a
smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to
articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think
the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were
anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an
objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its
right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one
thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this
morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of
financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for
skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial
investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal
under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a
financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would
be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just
released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.
The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited
about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would
be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded
as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal
about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about
what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff
free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is
where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how
the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's
negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.
It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We
are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.
Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare
claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst
encouraging people into work by making work pay.
But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work
incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?
Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,
as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.
Theresa May says she wants a country that works
for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.
It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them
to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out
and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes
But now some in her party are worried that the low earners
will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system
originally set up to encourage more people into work.
We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit
Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget
to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.
Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs
in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.
I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might
be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,
Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand
To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,
and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions
Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.
Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan
that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.
One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system
That is how much you can earn before your credit
As the Government has sought to save money,
both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,
both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,
that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.
The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.
That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep
It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.
What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?
The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.
If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer
budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains
in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,
recipients will be hit by annual deductions.
Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.
A dual-earning couple with two children under four,
with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other
working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20
hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.
Hit most by the changes would be a single parent
with a child under four, working full-time
I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given
the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.
What I would like to see is an increase in the work
allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.
That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,
because they are the people we need to absolutely make
The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs
are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.
A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact
analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures
Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect
of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.
But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit
the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.
What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first
time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year
because these reforms actually do make sense.
What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people
off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people
earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this
People are coming off welfare and into work.
Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve
The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple
Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right
that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,
for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have
I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,
because is costing us an awful lot of money.
With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's
new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,
its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it
And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,
Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side
of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit
from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed
as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed
because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going
to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for
being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus
on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic
terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is
the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this
right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the
direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too
much money out of that group of people when there are other areas
which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit
is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to
stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were
there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it
should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to
stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but
that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but
first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis
of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant
and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I
do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised
that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that
pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing
the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost
us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another
5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind
you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in
2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a
week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes
that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.
What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and
election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us
today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest
in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.
Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose
benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too
high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the
moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at
65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will
face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.
The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand
is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to
get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into
work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in
hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have
a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same
commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty
going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What
happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax
credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe
given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point
where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,
it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the
summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise
the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being
higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the
consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take
collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,
but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.
There was another attempt before the spending review last year to
increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed
to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last
year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of
that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if
we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is
singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the
paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of
the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a
diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate
will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I
will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you
put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed
it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed
circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne
introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe
so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I
don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax
threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is
in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,
and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to
improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green
paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes
necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be
done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work
and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort
our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make
sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what
you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would
that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on
in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would
it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is
first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where
they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the
re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the
IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,
and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,
because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less
incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We
don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I
would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.
-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would
prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold
razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,
getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal
Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written
by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic
and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that
people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take
on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?
This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that
enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five
deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to
Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,
genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to
make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think
she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have
a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto
commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the
personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to
an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock
that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?
What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now
the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations
Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as
a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.
It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about
ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but
after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and
allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the
triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under
pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money
out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on
the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are
up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by
Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay
for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock
and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?
As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the
intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.
Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -
who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.
That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took
against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist
Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November
2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council
of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British
In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker
who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.
From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been
involved in a number of community organisations, including
the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,
Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education
and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.
But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called
Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local
community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences
he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.
The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally
outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses
terrorists - as particularly sinister.
The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise
Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that
Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.
We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer
on their Religious Education Committee.
The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that
Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group
in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.
I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam
Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a
statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject
the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and
unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam
What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At
the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he
belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque
would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be
saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and
extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very
important decision and a very important judgment by the judge
First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer
of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of
things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand
by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody
who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential
libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and
people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's
some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who
promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a
step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing
within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really
concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were
consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What
is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It
comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for
them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist
to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a
revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And
then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.
We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,
growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political
ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular
problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the
theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that
excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good
to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi
problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of
mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on
the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll
and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are
speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we
have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in
prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But
there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will
show one face to the community because they actually need that for
a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to
operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their
constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these
people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.
And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque
stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you
surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with
Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that
decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with
extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I
don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge
that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an
extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have
a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a
law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated
violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there
is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into
question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other
Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to
say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties
from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure
could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make
it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg
has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have
to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they
say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.
But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner
and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose
them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
Later in the programme, our hospitals are
buckling under the strain, trying to make savings
while they are dealing with the beds crisis?
There is no winter pressures any more.
And a new way to protect our coasts, but only
if the Government will stump up some money.
Well, here with me today, James Cleverly, the Conserv`tive MP
And for the Liberal Democrats, Dave Hodgson.
The only elected mayor in this region.
But all that might change if this man gets
This week, Sajid Javid was hn Suffolk in Norfolk trying to save
The local government secretary met councillors
and business leaders in a l`st-ditch effort to keep the deal alive.
Under the Government's proposals, over 30
years, hundreds of millions of pounds would be devolved from
Councillors would get new powers over housing,
infrastructure, transport and economic development.
But it is by no means a dond deal, especially in
Norfolk, where four councils have already opted out.
The Tory leader of the county council is now calling
for an debate early next month before a final decision is
If this deal doesn't happen, then there will, ultimately, I think
the fewer opportunities because local leaders will be
turning their backs on hundreds of millions of new
It is control of local skills funding,
transport funding, and why would any local
leader turn their back on
Dave Hodgson, as an elected mayor, presumably you are all
Well, the people of Bedford voted for it.
We had a referendum, we decided we wanted an elected
If the people of Norfolk and Suffolk decides they
want a different system, they should have that.
I don't think the system should be imposed against how they
You didn't say whether you think you are in favour
I campaign against elected mayors, but the people of
Why is it that the Government is so set on
I think that's one of the things we saw from the clip is that a number
of those issues, skills, economic development,
And the combination of thosd things in a local area will vary area to
Local solutions, supported financially from central Government,
but tailored for local needs, I think it is a really good mix
Because actually, if you are going to be
devolving really big chunks of money which are going to be spent
regionally, then actually you need someone who is accountable `cross
that whole region to be the person that front setup.
And I think that is why the Secretary of State was
Where you have a point of accountability who can spend that
But surely if the people in Norfolk and Suffolk have a different
accountable model and we re`lly believe in devolving power, they
should be able to decide thdir model and actually put that to thd
Secretary of State and say, this is the model we want.
And we shouldn't be hung up on elected mayors
We should look at the devolution as the
primary task and actually get the economy moving.
Don't you think it is good to have a focal point?
It works in Bedford, but I think I can
Norfolk and Suffolk there isn't a focal point necessarily.
And I think it will be actu`lly more of a
And it seems to be the thing that is stopping the deal.
If everybody wants this devolution, if
this is the only thing, surely there's a way round ht.
Everybody seems to be talking about Norfolk
and Suffolk and Cambridgeshhre, what about Essex?
Well, the idea of a Greater Essex region, and Essex
But I think one of the challenges with
Essex is, though we have Chdlmsford as our capital city, actually Essex
It doesn't really have that central mass.
And I think it is shown that
some of the needs and requirements of South Essex, which is much more
urban, very different from the north, which is much more rural.
But if we listen to what Sajid Javid said, they are going to
To make it clear, I am ambivalent on the
But I do completely understand the Government's
position, when they are sayhng, if we are going to hand across really
significant spending power, then we need to note that the people
spending that money can be held to account.
It is one of the fundamentals of democracy.
And it is really difficult to hold a mix of
district, town, parish and county councils.
one of the things that the Government is quite keen on seeing.
The challenge of managing our coastline.
on a scale never before seen in the UK is being
planned for a stretch of
The aim of the plan is to improve sea defences near
one of the biggest gas terminals in Britain.
With a new technique called sandscaping.
But the council needs help from the Government to pay for
It's a vital piece of National infrastructure.
Nearly a third of all the g`s we use is piped into
Unthinkable that this could fall into the sea.
But that is exactly what is at stake.
Sea defences have failed, beach levels have dropped.
Which is why a radical solution to protect
the terminal and the neighbouring villages of Walcott and Bacton,
The province of South Holland are examining innovative
Waves of coastal maintenancd and protection using the sand motor.
On the Dutch coast, huge qu`ntities of
sand have been dredged and brought ashore.
The natural movement of the
waves and tides then carries this sacrificial material down the coast,
maintaining beach levels and providing
It is not just a little bit of sand, it
I think we are so close now that I cannot see it is not
It hasn't happened as quickly as I would
have liked, or indeed as the
terminal would like, which hs why they are having to put some
temporary protection in casd of winter storms this year.
At Bacton, 2.3 million cubic metres of sand
It gets a qualified welcome from Richard
Hollis, who recently spent ?250,000 on rock defences
to protect his caravan park.
If you look at the Dutch, they do the sandscaping, but they also
practice drainage along the top of the cliff.
And a hard defence further down to stop the main wash
The estimated cost of the s`nd escaping is around ?30
North Norfolk Council needs to raise approximately ?6 million to protect
It is facing a shortfall of up to 3 million.
Autumn Statement to see whether the Government
We also want to see whether the gas companies are prepared to
But without contributions from Government and
the gas companies, this will not go ahead.
The scheme, which would be ` first for Britain, has the
If the funding can be agreed, work could start as soon as next year.
Well, we did ask to speak to Suffolk MP, but she was not able to talk
Mr Cleverly, do you think that, there you are, you
As we have seen from the statement, the
And I know MPs have lobbied for funding,
some more successfully than
others - my colleague Brandon Lewis I know was successful
getting funding for his part of the Norfolk coast.
So, yes, Central Government does have a role to play.
And obviously so do the private sector.
And so, it needs to be a team effort.
I think that proposal is very interesting.
It is the kind of thing we will look to support.
How do you decide what you are going to save?
Are you going to save the g`s terminal or
Through lobbying, Brandon Lewis has been
Why you choose Brandon Lewis' bits of the coast, rather
than Norman Lamb's and the villages there, I think you cannot jtst
decide piecemeal about who can lobby best.
That is not the way to
Isn't there a question about what you save?
Whether it is an industrial site like the gas terminal?
But if you have lobbying to prioritise one area, surdly we
It doesn't seem that shot of money in the grand
And what I don't want to do is for that to be eroded
It would nice to be nearer the coast,
but if we don't do this, we are going to be
It is not just about who is the most successful at lobbying.
It is a good metaphor for the kind of decisions
that always have to be made at Government level anyway, which is
you can't do everything you might want to do, so you have to
I know Norman will be lobbyhng hard for his part of the
coastline, and it is about laking sure that central government
recognise there is a strong case to be made locally.
But you can't protect absolttely every inch of
coast, you have to focus on the things
of the most significant in
And you also have to decide what you are going to
save because the problem moves down the coastline as well, doesn't it?
Now, the state of our health services.
Despite making huge savings, the majority of acute
hospitals in this region can't balance their books.
This year, totalling ?336 million across the
The highest single deficit is at Addenbrooke's in Cambridge.
Which expects to see a hole in its
finances of ?74 million by the end of the year.
They are having to make savhngs and facing
Even before we reached the critical winter period,
black alerts, where there are no beds available, are becoming the
At times, health services fdel like they are on life support.
The strain of having to makd savings where providing care for increasing
numbers of patients is beginning to show.
Since the start of the year, hospitals like Norfolk and Norwich
and the Queen Elizabeth in King's Lynn have
had months of being on
black alert, when the hospital is completely full and no bdds are
Earlier this month, four of Essex's hospitals were affected,
and there has been a month period at Addenbrooke's in Cambridge, too.
Which brings into question whether the phrase winter crisis sthll
There is no winter pressures any more.
Numbers of attendances through A E continue
At Northampton General's dahly bed management meeting, every
purple line represents a patient who is waiting at A E for more
Thanks, firstly, for Wednesday, Thursday,
Here, they have more than 100 patients who are actually wdll
In the first eight months of this year, almost 40,000
bed days were lost at Northamptonshire's main hospital
because patients where they are longer than the needed to bd.
One of the highest figures in the country.
A large part of the problem is caused by so-called bed blockers,
people who have to stay in hospital longer than they need to because
care can't be found for them at home.
And I know people on the wards have been saying that they wanted to get
Because there weren't enough carers in place.
The Government wants to
bring together health and social care services that were
traditionally funded by local authorities
to try and reduce the
But our councils are struggling to cope.
If you look at the Better Care Fund.
If you look at the things wd are doing with the health and wdll-being
board, and you look at how we are looking to change thhs,
that can go part of the way to addressing the
But in the longer term, we are going to have to havd a
conversation about the amount of money we put into servicds.
To care for a couple like the Kings, Suffolk
County Council has already had to plug a ?500 million
shortfall this year in
And Norfolk is facing a ?7 million hole over the
The pressure on social care has grown.
We have seen recurring cuts to cancel budgets
that pay for those services by and large.
quarter fewer older people are receiving that kind of treatment
The East of England has a particularly fast
The number of over 65 is is set to rise by 20%.
Over the next decade, which is more than all other groups combined.
And that does place additional pressure
And it is becoming increasingly difficult for our
hospitals to follow Governmdnt plans and deliver everything to everyone.
The Government wants to keep its health
budget down and has asked for savings.
Many hospitals in our region are saving more than
Yet despite that, only two of them are managing to
balance their books, and the rest are running deficits.
It is true that in parts of the country, demand
has gone up by more than they anticipated.
But there are lots of things we can do and are doing very successfully
to help hospitals control their budgets.
Difficulties in accident and emergency are all too f`miliar.
But maybe some people do not really need to be here.
There should be another way to solve the problem.
This week, Broomfield Hospital in Chelmsford got tough in
Telling some prospective patients to go elsewhere.
It is something we may see lore of as our
health services face difficult decisions ahead.
We pay less for our health care than most countries in
But I think there is a management issue.
It is about working with
The front door to the health service is via social care.
We have had the sustainable transformation plan,
where we're meant to be working together with the health service.
Or communication between he`lth and local government.
Don't we have to put them both in the same basket?
And say one person organises social care and the health service?
But there hasn't been that integration.
Yes, we do need to do that `nd it needs to be under one
basket and one heading to gdt them to work together.
But it hasn't happened so f`r, so the idea of the
We have seen, in my view, from my perspective, the
health service just saying, we are going to do it.
And occasionally asking for some data, but very late
Should it be local or should it be national?
If we get the elected mayors is
shouldn't they have the powdr of the health service?
Again, I'm going to get in trouble with my whips
because I keep agreeing with Dave on a number of issues,
but I do think that there ndeds to be close
integration of the whole provision of health in a local area.
From GP surgery preventing people going to
hospitals, but also social care to enable people to leave hospital
When you are putting big money into a local area,
that accountability is so very important.
So perhaps, as we are starthng to see in Manchester, local
identified politicians, whether they be mayors or other
models, perhaps an evolution of a Police and Crime
Commissioner, could hold th`t money and be accountable for how ht is
But they haven't got enough money, whoever runs it.
I would say this, there is lore money going into the
National Health Service than at any point in its history.
There are more people using the National Health
There are more people using it, but the Government has met the
commitment that NHS England asked for over the course of this
It looks as though NHS England got the wrong
But there are some things we need to do.
I think there are some issuds about structures, management,
and also about the habits of health users.
We do need more money but wd also need to run the system diffdrently.
To have that risk aversion where people go to A and they go
from a care home because thdy can't get the Dr to say they don't need to
So we are seeing lots of people turn up.
Bedford Hospital has 74 ambtlances turn up on
That can't be right, when many of those may not have
Presumably, they had to quete and then there weren't ambulances
available, so it has a knock-on effect?
But it is far more expensivd to treat people if
In the clip, we saw people who didn't need to go
Some of the care staff is to try and integrate that and
say, if the hospital had some people actually
in the care homes, you
could say they don't need to go to hospital.
You could could treat them where they are.
It needs to be working together from the first principles.
We have to do something. But who will have responsibility for the
money? Some will devolve, Essex won't? We will have to get tsed to
the fact that there will be different systems of Governlent
across the country. Elected mayors, we are not going to have a one size
fits all. That is probably right but we will have to get used to it. They
must talk about it. A new 21-mile stretch
of the England Coast Path rtnning from Sea Palling to Hopton-on-Sea
has been opened I think it is very important that
people who enjoy the paths respect the paths in the interest
of the owners alongside the paths. New research shows single
parents in Milton Keynes are owed ?12 million
MPs are worried that the new child maintenance service won't hdlp.
Before the new system is fully rolled out,
are there any tweaks we
can suggest to the central Government to make
A high-tech firm in Huntington has decided to expand abroad following
the voted to leave the European Union.
Enocam needs engineers, but so
few people from the EU are applying for jobs
here now, it's decided to
And an Essex MP has been reprimanded in Parliament for heckling Jeremy
Corbyn during Prime Minister's Question Time.
You are imperilling your own health, man.
It is a source of great concern to me.
There is an honour which is, I won't on a family programle
give it the full name, but I was told off by the Speaker
criticism of the leader of the opposition, yeah.
He has a very sharp sense of humour, a very good sense of humour.
And you didn't see it on the footage,
did the traditional kind of slight bow to the head, and he bowdd back,
The other things which came up in our 60 Seconds,
we are talking about all sorts of problems, talking about
Not just Brexit, but the skills and the
And I go round companies and there is a
difficulty in getting enginders and having the right skills to allow
I don't know details, but I know we to have our engineering
engineering base built on, and we need the skills to
If you talk to people, they will Say that
lots of people are training to be engineers.
But you look at the North Sda, you look at this particular
business, it is a problem gdtting the right training to peopld.
One of the things I find very frustrating
is we spent years through the ' 0s telling youngsters that unldss they
wore a suit to work and is had a degree
wore a suit to work and is had a degree that they weren't valued.
We had this whole thing abott half the population having to go to
There are some really fulfilling, well-paid, important
jobs in things like engineering and that kind of stuff.
Well, both of you, thank you very much for being with
You can keep in touch via our website.
Barely more than a week now until polling day,
and a new revelation rocks the US Presidential election campaign.
If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just got more bizarre.
The FBI have reopened their investigation into Hillary Clinton's
use of private email servers whilst she was Secretary
of State, after the discovery of further emails.
Though not on her laptop or even the State Department.
Donald Trump is saying that it's bigger than Watergate -
so could it swing the election in his favour?
We spoke to top US pollster, Frank Luntz.
The FBI investigation is happening so late in the election process
that it would be very difficult to derail a Clinton victory.
That said, if there is one thing that could keep Hillary Clinton
from the presidency, it's an FBI investigation.
But there's still only four states that really matter, Florida, Ohio,
Right now, Clinton has beyond the margin of error leads
This would have to have a truly significant impact for the election
There is a point about a week ago when I was prepared to say that
Clinton had a 95% chance of winning this election.
Based on what has happened in the last 48 hours,
It is still very likely, but I wouldn't bet on it.
I thought the 2000 election would be the best election of my lifetime,
And then I thought 2008 would be amazing, because we had two
challenger candidates and the first African-American President.
It is ugly, it's painful, it is as negative as anything
The public is angry, the country, overall, is frustrated.
But for entertainment value, these candidates probably should
have charged us money, because it's better than any movie
at ever seen, it's better than any TV show.
That was Frank Luntz. He may be right or wrong about Mrs Clinton
still having an 80% chance of winning. I would bet on an 80%
chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to a high-profile American pollster and
strategist last night and he took a rather different view to Frank
Luntz. He thought, and I think some other high-profile commentators
agree, that this is actually much more serious than some people
realise. There are an awful lot of undecided voters out there looking
for an excuse to vote Trump. They do not like what they see in either
candidate. But because this FBI probe is not going to conclude
before the election, the question, the doubt over Hillary Clinton,
gives them an excuse to back Trump. The thing that will play on the
minds of the voters is, could the 100 day honeymoon turning to the 100
day divorce? Which even be impeached? It may give some people
an excuse not to vote for Mrs Clinton. It could provide a problem
in terms of energising her base The battle ground almost matters more
than the polls. Florida and Pennsylvania have been trending to
Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win both. He does not get in without
both. He needs both. Just coming up in the latest BBC News, the
Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs Clinton is now only one point ahead
in the national poll. One point Even given my caveat that the state
battles are most important. That is incredibly close? It is. Polls
yesterday showed Trump nationally closing of. -- up. There is a clear
trend and movement. This has reinforced everything that people
who have a problem with Hillary Clinton know about Hillary Clinton.
Trump is running this insurgent campaign. We have seen at here with
Brexit. If you are running an insurgent campaign, you want to be
against the ultimate establishment insider and that is what Hillary
Clinton is. I suggested it was bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of
the FBI is interesting as well. This is a separate investigation into a
former congressman, Anthony Wiener, who had done all sorts of things. He
seemed to be sex text thing a minor. A 15-year-old girl. The FBI
investigate. They get his laptop to see what else he has been too. In
the course of that, his wife, now separated, the closest adviser to
Hillary Clinton, they find on the laptop e-mails involving the Clinton
server to her. And yet the FBI cannot, it needs now a separate
warrant to access these e-mails It hasn't got that yet. It has got a
warrant to do the congressman e-mails. On the basis of not knowing
the content, this has happened. Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican,
this guy. Earlier this year he was being praised to the hilt by
Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is a nightmare for her. You described
the whole sequence. There is nothing definitive to doubt in this
sequence. All he is saying is he has discovered more e-mails in effect.
They are from the congressman's former wife. On Anthony Wiener's
laptop, which apparently she used sometimes. But what that shows is
that for all the scrutiny of modern politicians, they cannot escape
caricature. And as Tim was just saying, her weakness is perceived to
be secretive, elitism and complacency about that elitism. And
so just the announcement of a reopening of the investigation so
fuels that caricature, you have just revealed a poll giving her a 1%
lead. That must be related to what has happened. It is without a shred
of evidence that she has done anything wrong. You can see how
because people only see things encourage kids, that is deadly
serious. -- in caricature. An American friend of mine said we have
got our October surprise but we don't know what it is. The FBI must
surely come under massive pressure. It did its -- it did this against
the Justice Department. The difficulty the FBI had was that this
information, for what it's worth, it came to them. Were they not to have
said something and it worked to have come out later, they would have been
accused of a massive cover-up. They are dammed if they do, dammed if
they don't. There is still time for another surprise. And early November
surprise. Who knows if there might still be something that comes out on
Donald Trump? This is the first election where I can remember we
have had two October surprises already. There are is stuff about
tapes knocking around about Donald Trump saying racist things. The
Clintons have got a lot of friends. It would be a big surprise if we did
not see anything else in the next few days.
Just when you think it could not get more interesting, it has. There has
been plenty in the papers lately about the Ukip leadership saying
unpleasant things about each other. But what about Mr Farage himself?
What's he up to? Well, on BBC Two tonight we may
find out the answer. Well, I'm led to believe
she's very experienced. But I don't think Strictly Come
Dancing is for me. That is, unless, of course,
you fancy popping a cheeky zero No, I don't think Strictly
Come Dancing is for me. Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just
lost your programme one viewer. I might have nothing to do these
days but, realistically, Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It
is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel Farage gets his life back. A number
of runners and riders. Let's come straight down to it. Who would be
the next leader of Ukip? Probably Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite.
The one who has the backing, not very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim
Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a big donor. The best of a rather weak
lot. I think Paul Nuttall should squeak through. I interviewed all
three of them this week. Mr Cassandra is a lively character and
he knows how to make a few headlines. With a bit of money
behind him, anything is possible. This is a guy who has been to the
States, who has literally studied what Trump has done. Pees on
secondment for the time being. The guy who is his line manager is one
of Donald Trump's campaign stop He is extraordinarily right-wing. I am
told he kept a picture of Enoch Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater
is one of his heroes, for example. There are other candidates. I would
suggest, put out as a hypothesis, Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst
nightmare. They are more vulnerable in the North. Paul Nuttall is from
Merseyside, a working-class background, performs well on
television. He is a really good interviewee. He is one of the best
around in politics at the moment. However, I think whoever gets it has
a massive task. The clip of this Nigel Farage satire partly shows
why. His dominance was overwhelming. He, in many ways, did a brilliant
job at keeping the show on the road. The trouble for all new political
parties is keeping it going is tough. A very different party, the
SDP, with all those glamorous figures in it, lasted eight years,
something like that. I think they are in real trouble at the moment
because of the implosion we have been seeing in front of our eyes and
the ideal -- ideological splits Whoever gets it will face a tough
tussle. All three of the main contenders want to put Nigel Farage
in the House of Lords. They were falling over themselves to soak up
two farads. That is how you win this election.
Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting his money on? He said he supports
Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He
thinks it is terribly disorganised, dysfunctional and doesn't want a
great deal to do with it for the foreseeable future.
It is not quite Trump the Clinton but it is interesting. That is it.
The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. And all of next week. Jo Coburn will
be your next Sunday because I am off to the United States to begin to
rehearse presenting the BBC's US election night coverage on the th
of November. It will be here on BBC One, BBC
world, BBC News Channel and BBC online.
Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
A stone stained with blood and beset with a curse.
The Moonstone is of inestimable value in India.
Its appointed guardians would move heaven and earth to reclaim it
Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.
You've got to do something! It's only you that can!
He's a scientist, brilliant apparently.
But you may be bringing people over here who did things during the war.
I will not work for you. I will not work for the British Government
Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.