22/01/2017 Sunday Politics East


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22/01/2017

Andrew Neil, Stewart White and shadow home secretary Diane Abbott provide reaction to Theresa May's Brexit speech and look at the inauguration of US president Donald Trump.


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:37.

Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to visit US

:00:38.:00:40.

President Donald Trump this week - she's promised to hold "very

:00:41.:00:43.

frank" conversations with the new and controversial

:00:44.:00:46.

Speaking of the 45th President of America,

:00:47.:00:53.

we'll be looking at what the Trump presidency could hold

:00:54.:00:56.

in store for Britain and the rest of the world.

:00:57.:01:03.

And with the Supreme Court expected to say that Parliament should

:01:04.:01:05.

have a vote before the Brexit process begins, we'll ask

:01:06.:01:09.

it is like about to get harder for what Labour will do next.

:01:10.:01:21.

it is like about to get harder for university students from

:01:22.:01:22.

disadvantaged backgrounds? And to talk about all of that

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and more, I'm joined by three journalists who, in an era

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of so-called fake news, can be relied upon for their accuracy,

:01:36.:01:38.

their impartiality - and their willingness

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to come to the studio It's Steve Richards,

:01:43.:01:45.

Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tom Newton Dunn,

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and during the programme they'll be tweeting as often as the 45th

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President of the USA in the middle So - the Prime Minister has been

:01:58.:02:01.

appearing on the BBC this morning. She was mostly talking

:02:02.:02:11.

about Donald Trump and Brexit, but she was also asked about a story

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on the front of this It's reported that an unarmed

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Trident missile test fired from the submarine HMS Vengeance

:02:18.:02:21.

near the Florida coast in June The paper says the incident took

:02:22.:02:27.

place weeks before a crucial Commons Well, let's have listen

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to Theresa May talking The issue that we were talking

:02:36.:02:39.

about in the House of Commons It was about whether or not

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we should renew Trident, whether we should look to the future

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and have a replacement Trident. That's what we were talking

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about in the House of Commons. That's what the House

:02:53.:02:54.

of Commons voted for. He doesn't want to defend our

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country with an independent There are tests that take place

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all the time, regularly, What we were talking about in that

:03:03.:03:09.

debate that took place... I'm not going to get

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an answer to this. Tom, it was clear this was going to

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come up this morning. It is on the front page of the Sunday Times. It

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would seem to me the Prime Minister wasn't properly briefed on how to

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reply. I think she probably was, but the Prime Minister we now have

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doesn't necessarily answer all questions in the straightest way.

:03:45.:03:50.

She didn't answer that one and all. Unlike previous ones? She made it

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quite clear she was briefed. You read between the Theresa May lines.

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By simply not answering Andrew Marr four times, it is obvious she knew,

:04:03.:04:07.

and that she knew before she went into the House of Commons and urged

:04:08.:04:12.

everyone to renew the ?40 billion replacement programme. Of course it

:04:13.:04:17.

is an embarrassment, but does it have political legs? I don't think

:04:18.:04:23.

so. She didn't mislead the Commons. If she wanted to close it down, the

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answer should have been, these are matters of national security.

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There's nothing more important in that than our nuclear deterrent. I'm

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not prepared to talk about testing. End of. But she didn't. Maybe you

:04:38.:04:44.

should be briefing her. That's a good answer. She is an interesting

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interviewee. She shows it when she is nervous. She was transparently

:04:49.:04:53.

uneasy answering those questions, and the fact she didn't answer it

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definitively suggests she did know and didn't want to say it, and she

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answered awkwardly. But how wider point, that the House of Commons

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voted for the renewal of Trident, suggests to me that in the broader

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sweep of things, this will not run, because if there was another vote, I

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would suggest she'd win it again. But it is an embarrassment and she

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handled it with a transparent awkwardness. She said that the tests

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go on all the time, but not of the missiles. Does it not show that when

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the Prime Minister leaves her comfort zone of Home Office affairs

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or related matters, she often struggles. We've seen it under

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questioning from Mr Corbyn even, and we saw it again today. Absolutely.

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Tests of various aspects of the missiles go on all the time, but

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there's only been five since 2000. What you described wouldn't have

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worked, because in previous tests they have always been very public

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about it. Look how well our missiles work! She may not have misled

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Parliament, but she may not have known about it. If she didn't know,

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does Michael Fallon still have a job on Monday? Should Parliament know

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about a test that doesn't work? Some would say absolutely not. Our

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deterrent is there to deter people from attacking us. If they know that

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we are hitting the United States by mistake rather than the Atlantic

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Ocean, then... There is such a thing as national security, and telling

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all the bad guys about where we are going wrong may not be a good idea.

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It was her first statement as Prime Minister to put her case for

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renewal, to have the vote on Trident, and in that context, it is

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significant not to say anything. If anyone knows where the missile

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landed, give us a call! So Donald Trump's inauguration day

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closed with him dancing to Frank Sinatra's My Way,

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and whatever your view on the 45th President of the United States

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he certainly did do it his way. Not for him the idealistic call

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for national unity - instead he used Friday's inaugural

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address to launch a blistering attack on the dark state

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of the nation and the political class, and to promise

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to take his uncompromising approach from the campaign trail

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to the White House. Here's Adam Fleming,

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with a reminder of how First, dropping by for a cup of tea

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and a slightly awkward exchange Then, friends, foes

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and predecessors watched I, Donald John Trump,

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do solemnly swear... The crowds seemed smaller

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than previous inaugurations, the speech tougher then any

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previous incoming president. From this day forth,

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it's going to be only America first. In the meantime, there were sporadic

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protests in Washington, DC. Opponents made their voices heard

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around the world too. The President,

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who'd criticised the work of the intelligence agencies,

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fitted in a visit to the CIA. There is nobody that feels stronger

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about the intelligence community And, back at the office,

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in the dark, a signature signalled the end of the Obama era

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and the dawn of Trump. So, as you heard there,

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President Trump used his inauguration to repeat his campaign

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promise to put "America first" in all his decisions, and offered

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some hints of what to expect He talked of in America in carnage,

:09:21.:09:38.

to be rebuilt by American hands and American Labour. President Trump has

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already started to dismantle key parts of the Obama Legacy, including

:09:42.:09:46.

the unwinding of the affordable care act, and the siding of the climate

:09:47.:09:51.

action plan to tackle global warning. Little to say about foreign

:09:52.:09:56.

policy, but promised to eradicate Islamic terrorism from the face of

:09:57.:10:01.

the Earth, insisting he would restore the US military to

:10:02.:10:05.

unquestioning dominance. He also said the US would develop a state

:10:06.:10:10.

missile defence system to deal with threats he sees from Iran and North

:10:11.:10:15.

Korea. In a statement that painted a bleak picture of the country he now

:10:16.:10:22.

runs, he said his would be a law and order Administration, and he would

:10:23.:10:27.

keep the innocents safe by building the border war with Mexico. One

:10:28.:10:32.

thing he didn't mention, for the first time ever, there is a

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Eurosceptic in the oval office, who is also an enthusiast for Brexit.

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We're joined now by Ted Malloch - he's a Trump supporter who's been

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tipped as the president's choice for US ambassador

:10:44.:10:45.

to the EU, and he's just flown back from Washington.

:10:46.:10:47.

And by James Rubin - he's a democrat who served

:10:48.:10:50.

Let's start with that last point I made in the voice over there. We now

:10:51.:11:00.

have a Eurosceptic in the oval office. He is pro-Brexit and not

:11:01.:11:07.

keen on further European Union integration. What are the

:11:08.:11:11.

implications of that? First of all, a renewal of the US- UK special

:11:12.:11:16.

relationship. You see the Prime Minister already going to build and

:11:17.:11:22.

rebuild this relationship. Already, the bust of Winston Churchill is

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back in the oval office. Interestingly, Martin Luther King's

:11:28.:11:32.

bust is also there, so there is an act of unity in that first movement

:11:33.:11:38.

of dusts. Donald Trump will be oriented between bilateral

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relationships and not multilateral or supernatural. Supranational full.

:11:44.:11:54.

What are the implications of someone in the White House now not believing

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in it? I think we are present in the unravelling of America's leadership

:12:00.:12:04.

of the West. There is now a thing called the west that America has led

:12:05.:12:09.

since the end of World War II, creating supranational - we just

:12:10.:12:21.

heard supernatural! These institutions were created. With

:12:22.:12:24.

American leadership, the world was at peace in Europe, and the world

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grew increasingly democratic and prosperous. Wars were averted that

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could be extremely costly. When something works in diplomacy, you

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don't really understand what the consequences could have been. I

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think we've got complacent. The new president is taking advantage of

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that. It is a terrible tragedy that so many in the West take for granted

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the successful leadership and institutions we have built. You

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could argue, as James Rubin has argued in some articles, that...

:12:58.:13:06.

Will Mr Trump's America be more involved in the world than the Obama

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won? Or will it continue the process with running shoes on that began

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with Mr Obama? President Obama stepped back from American

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leadership. He withdrew from the world. He had a horrendous eight

:13:25.:13:29.

years in office, and American powers have diminished everywhere in the

:13:30.:13:34.

world, not just in Europe. That power will reassert. The focus will

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be on America first, but there are foreign interests around the

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world... How does it reassert itself around the world? I think the

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institutions will be recreated. Some may be taken down. There could be

:13:50.:13:56.

some new ones. I think Nato itself, and certainly the Defence Secretary

:13:57.:13:59.

will have discussions with Donald Trump about how Nato can be

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reshaped, and maybe there will be more burden sharing. That is an

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important thing for him. You are tipped to be the US ambassador to

:14:09.:14:13.

Brussels, to the EU, and we are still waiting to hear if that will

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happen. Is it true to say that Mr Trump does not believe in EU

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integration? I think you made that clear in the speech. He talked about

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supranational. He does not believe in those kinds of organisations. He

:14:35.:14:40.

is investing himself in bilateral relationships, the first of which

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will be with the UK. So we have a president who does not believe in EU

:14:45.:14:50.

integration and has been highly critical of Nato. Do the people he

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has appointed to defend, Secretary of State, national security, do you

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think that will temper this anti-NATO wretched? Will he come

:15:01.:15:06.

round to a more pro-NATO situation? I think those of us who care about

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America's situation in the world will come in to miss President Obama

:15:13.:15:19.

a lot. I think the Secretary of State and the faculty of defence

:15:20.:15:22.

will limit the damage and will urge him not to take formal steps to

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unravel this most powerful and most successful alliance in history, the

:15:28.:15:32.

Nato alliance. But the damage is already being done. When you are the

:15:33.:15:39.

leader of the West, leadership means you are persuading, encouraging,

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bolstering your leadership and these institutions by the way you speak.

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Millions, if not hundreds of millions of people, have now heard

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the US say that what they care about is within their borders.

:15:54.:15:57.

What do you say to that? It is such an overstatement. The point is that

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Donald Trump is in a Jacksonian tradition of national populism. He

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is appealing to the people first. The other day, I was sitting below

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this page during the address, and he said, everyone sitting behind me as

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part of the problem. Everyone in front of me, the crowd and the crowd

:16:23.:16:26.

on television, is part of the solution, so we are giving the

:16:27.:16:30.

Government back to the people. That emphasis is going to change American

:16:31.:16:34.

life, including American International relations. It doesn't

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moving the leak back -- it doesn't mean we are moving out of Nato, it

:16:42.:16:46.

simply means we will put our national interests first. There were

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echoes of Andrew Jackson's inauguration address of 1820. That

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night, the Jacksonians trashed the White House, but Mr Trump's people

:16:58.:17:00.

didn't do that, so there is a difference there. He also said

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something else in the address - that protectionism would lead to

:17:07.:17:10.

prosperity. I would suggest there is no evidence for that in the post-war

:17:11.:17:16.

world. He talked about protecting the American worker, American jobs,

:17:17.:17:22.

the American economy. I actually think that Donald Trump will not

:17:23.:17:29.

turn out to be a protectionist. If you read the heart of the deal...

:17:30.:17:36.

This is referring to two Republican senators who introduce massive

:17:37.:17:38.

tariffs in the Hoover administration. Exactly. If you read

:17:39.:17:48.

The Art Of The Deal, you will see how Donald Trump deals with

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individuals and countries. There is a lot of bluster, positioning, and I

:17:53.:17:58.

think you already see this in bringing jobs by the United States.

:17:59.:18:02.

Things are going to change. Let's also deal with this proposition.

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China is the biggest loser of this election result. Let me say this:

:18:06.:18:13.

The first time in American history and American president has set forth

:18:14.:18:21.

his view of the world, and it is a mercantile view of the world, who

:18:22.:18:27.

makes more money, who gets more trade, it doesn't look at the shared

:18:28.:18:32.

values, leadership and defends the world needs. The art of the deal has

:18:33.:18:36.

no application to America's leadership of the world, that's what

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we're learning. You can be a great businessman and make great real

:18:40.:18:45.

estate deals - whether he did not is debatable - but it has nothing to do

:18:46.:18:48.

with inspiring shared values from the West. You saying China may lose,

:18:49.:18:54.

because he may pressure them to reduce their trade deficit with the

:18:55.:18:59.

US. They may or may not. We may both lose. Right now, his Secretary of

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State has said, and I think he will walk this back when he is brief,

:19:05.:19:08.

that they will prevent the Chinese from entering these islands in the

:19:09.:19:13.

South China Sea. If they were to do that, it would be a blockade, and

:19:14.:19:17.

there would be a shooting war between the United States and China,

:19:18.:19:22.

so US - China relations are the most important bilateral relationship of

:19:23.:19:25.

the United States, and they don't lend themselves to the bluff and

:19:26.:19:29.

bluster that may have worked when you are trying to get a big building

:19:30.:19:35.

on second Ave in Manhattan. Is China the biggest loser? I think the

:19:36.:19:42.

Chinese have a lot to lose. Gigi and Ping was in Davos this week -- Xi

:19:43.:19:53.

Jin Ping was in Davos. Is Germany the second biggest loser

:19:54.:20:03.

in the sense that I understand he hasn't agreed time to see Angela

:20:04.:20:07.

Merkel yet, also that those close to him believe that Germany is guilty

:20:08.:20:14.

of currency manipulation by adopting a weak your row instead of the

:20:15.:20:18.

strong Deutschmark, and that that is why they are running a huge balance

:20:19.:20:22.

of payments surplus with the United States. American - German relations

:20:23.:20:28.

may not be great. There is a point of view throughout Europe. You only

:20:29.:20:33.

have to talk to the southern Europeans about this question. It

:20:34.:20:37.

seems like the euro has been aligned to benefit Germany. Joe Stiglitz,

:20:38.:20:42.

the famous left of centre Democrat economist, made the same case in a

:20:43.:20:49.

recent book. In this case, I think Germany will be put under the

:20:50.:20:53.

spotlight. Angela Merkel has shown herself to be the most respected and

:20:54.:20:57.

the most successful leader in Europe. We who care about the West,

:20:58.:21:03.

who care about the shared values of the West, should pray and hope that

:21:04.:21:07.

she is re-elected. This isn't about dollars and cents. We're living in a

:21:08.:21:12.

time whether Russian leader has another country in Europe and for

:21:13.:21:17.

some inexplicable reason, the American president, who can use his

:21:18.:21:23.

insult diplomacy on everyone, including Mrs Merkel, the only

:21:24.:21:28.

person he can't seem to find anything to criticise about is Mr

:21:29.:21:33.

Putin. There are things more important than the actual details of

:21:34.:21:36.

your currency. There are things like preventing another war in Europe,

:21:37.:21:40.

preventing a war between the Chinese and the US. You talk about the

:21:41.:21:47.

Trident missile all morning, nuclear deterrence is extremely important.

:21:48.:21:51.

It doesn't lend itself to the bluff and bluster of a real estate deal. I

:21:52.:21:55.

understand all that, but the fact we are even talking about these things

:21:56.:21:58.

shows the new world we are moving into. I'd like to get you both to

:21:59.:22:04.

react to this. This is a man that ended the Bush Dynasty, a man that

:22:05.:22:12.

beat the Clinton machine. In his inauguration, not only did he not

:22:13.:22:15.

reach out to the Democrats, he didn't even mention the Republicans.

:22:16.:22:20.

These are changed days for us. They are, and change can be good or

:22:21.:22:24.

disastrous. I'm worried that it's easy in the world of diplomacy and

:22:25.:22:29.

in them -- for the leadership of the United States to break relationships

:22:30.:22:34.

and ruin alliances. These are things that were carefully nurtured. George

:22:35.:22:43.

Schultz, the American Secretary of State under Reagan talked about

:22:44.:22:46.

gardening, the slow, careful creation of a place with bilateral

:22:47.:22:52.

relationships that were blossoming and flowering multilateral

:22:53.:22:54.

relationships that take decades to create, and he will throw them away

:22:55.:22:57.

in a matter of days. The final word... I work for George Schultz.

:22:58.:23:04.

He was a Marine who stood up America, defended America, who would

:23:05.:23:08.

be in favour of many of the things that Donald Trump and the tramp

:23:09.:23:13.

Administration... Give him a call. His top aide macs that I've spoken

:23:14.:23:18.

to are appalled by Mr Trump's abdication of leadership. He is

:23:19.:23:23.

going to our radically -- he's going to eradicate extremist Islam from

:23:24.:23:31.

the face of the year. Is that realistic? I know people in the

:23:32.:23:34.

national security realm have worked on a plan. They say they will have

:23:35.:23:38.

such a plan in some detail within 90 days. Lets hope they succeed. We

:23:39.:23:47.

have run out of time. As a issues. Thank you, both. -- fascinating

:23:48.:23:48.

issues. So Theresa May promised a big speech

:23:49.:23:52.

on Brexit, and this week - perhaps against expectation -

:23:53.:23:55.

she delivered, trying to answer claims that the government didn't

:23:56.:23:57.

have a plan with an explicit wish-list of what she hopes to

:23:58.:24:00.

achieve in negotiations with the EU. To her allies it was ambitious,

:24:01.:24:02.

bold, optimistic - to her opponents it was full

:24:03.:24:05.

of contradictions Here's Adam again, with a reminder

:24:06.:24:07.

of the speech and how There are speeches,

:24:08.:24:10.

and there are speeches. Like Theresa May's 12 principles

:24:11.:24:15.

for a Brexit deal leading to the UK fully out of the EU

:24:16.:24:19.

but still friendly in terms This agreement should allow

:24:20.:24:22.

for the freest possible trade in goods and services between

:24:23.:24:26.

Britain and the EU's member states. It should give British

:24:27.:24:28.

companies the maximum operate within European markets

:24:29.:24:34.

and let European businesses do She also said no deal would be

:24:35.:24:37.

better than the wrong deal, We want to test what people think

:24:38.:24:45.

about what she's just said. Do we have any of our

:24:46.:25:01.

future negotiating As the European Parliament

:25:02.:25:03.

voted for its new president, its chief

:25:04.:25:08.

negotiator sounded off. Saying, OK, if our European

:25:09.:25:16.

counterparts don't accept it, we're going to make

:25:17.:25:18.

from Britain a sort of free zone or tax haven,

:25:19.:25:21.

I The Prime Minister of Malta,

:25:22.:25:23.

the country that's assumed the EU's rotating presidency,

:25:24.:25:30.

spoke in sorrow and a bit of anger. We want a fair deal

:25:31.:25:33.

for the United Kingdom, but that deal necessarily needs to be

:25:34.:25:37.

inferior to membership. Next, let's hear

:25:38.:25:47.

from some enthusiastic leavers, like, I don't

:25:48.:25:49.

know, the Daily Mail? The paper lapped it up

:25:50.:25:55.

with this adoring front page. For Brexiteers, it was

:25:56.:25:58.

all manna from heaven. I think today means we are a big

:25:59.:26:02.

step closer to becoming an independent country again,

:26:03.:26:04.

with control of our own laws, I was chuckling at some of it,

:26:05.:26:07.

to be honest, because There were various phrases there

:26:08.:26:13.

which I've used myself again and Do we have any of those

:26:14.:26:17.

so-called Remoaners? There will, at the end

:26:18.:26:22.

of this deal process, so politicians get to vote

:26:23.:26:24.

on the stitch-up, but We take the view as

:26:25.:26:27.

Liberal Democrats that if this process started

:26:28.:26:31.

with democracy last June, We trusted the people

:26:32.:26:33.

with departure, we must trust them Do we have anyone from

:26:34.:26:37.

Labour, or are you all watching it in a small

:26:38.:26:43.

room somewhere? Throughout the speech, there seemed

:26:44.:26:45.

to be an implied threat that somewhere along the line,

:26:46.:26:53.

if all her optimism of a deal with the European Union didn't work,

:26:54.:26:56.

we would move into a low-tax, corporate taxation,

:26:57.:26:58.

bargain-basement economy on the I think she needs to be

:26:59.:27:00.

a bit clearer about what The Labour leader

:27:01.:27:04.

suggested he'd tell his MPs to vote in favour

:27:05.:27:11.

of starting a Brexit process if Parliament was given the choice,

:27:12.:27:14.

sparking a mini pre-revolt among Finally, do we have anyone

:27:15.:27:16.

from big business here? Of course, your all in Davos

:27:17.:27:22.

at the World Economic Clarity, first of all, really

:27:23.:27:31.

codified what many of us have been anticipating since

:27:32.:27:41.

the referendum result, particularly around

:27:42.:27:43.

the I think what we've also seen

:27:44.:27:43.

today is the Government's willingness to put a bit of edge

:27:44.:27:48.

into the negotiating dynamic, and I Trade negotiations are negotiations,

:27:49.:27:51.

and you have to lay out, and you have to be pretty tough

:27:52.:27:56.

to get what you want. Although some business people

:27:57.:27:58.

on the slopes speculated about moving some of their

:27:59.:28:00.

operations out of Brexit Britain. We saw there the instant reaction

:28:01.:28:02.

of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, but how will the party respond

:28:03.:28:21.

to the challenge posed by Brexit Well, I'm joined now by the Shadow

:28:22.:28:23.

Home Secretary, Diane Abbott. People know that Ukip and the Tories

:28:24.:28:33.

are for Brexit. The Lib Dems are four remain. What is Labour for? For

:28:34.:28:38.

respecting the result of the referendum. It was a 72% turnout,

:28:39.:28:44.

very high for an election of that nature, and we believe you have to

:28:45.:28:47.

respect that result. You couldn't have a situation where people like

:28:48.:28:51.

Tim Farron are saying to people, millions of people, sorry, you got

:28:52.:28:55.

it wrong, we in London no better. However, how the Tories go forward

:28:56.:29:00.

from here has to be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. Is it Shadow

:29:01.:29:06.

Cabinet policy to vote for the triggering of Article 50? Our policy

:29:07.:29:11.

is not to block Article 50. That is what the leader was saying this

:29:12.:29:17.

morning. So are you for it? Our policy is not to block it. You are

:29:18.:29:23.

talking about voting for it. We don't know what the Supreme Court is

:29:24.:29:29.

going to say, and we don't know what legislation Government will bring

:29:30.:29:31.

forward, and we don't know what amendment we will move, but we're

:29:32.:29:37.

clear that we will not vote to block it. OK, so you won't bow to stop it,

:29:38.:29:41.

but you could abstain? No, what we will do... Either you vote for or

:29:42.:29:49.

against all you abstain. There are too many unanswered questions. For

:29:50.:29:53.

instance, the position of EU migrants working and living in this

:29:54.:29:57.

country. You may not get the answer to that before Article 50 comes

:29:58.:30:01.

before the Commons, so what would you do then? We are giving to amend

:30:02.:30:07.

it. We can only tell you exactly how we will amend it when we understand

:30:08.:30:11.

what sort of legislation the Government is putting forward, and

:30:12.:30:15.

in the course of moving those amendments, we will ask the

:30:16.:30:19.

questions that the people of Britain whether they voted to leave remain

:30:20.:30:20.

want answered. When you come to a collective view,

:30:21.:30:31.

will there be a three line whip? I can't tell you, because we have not

:30:32.:30:35.

seen the government 's legislation. But when you see it, you will come

:30:36.:30:43.

to a collective view. Many regard this as extremely important. Will

:30:44.:30:47.

there be a three line whip on Labour's collective view? Because it

:30:48.:30:52.

is important, we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. When we see what the

:30:53.:30:56.

Supreme Court says, and crucially, when we see what the government

:30:57.:31:02.

position is, you will hear what the whipping is. Will shadow ministers

:31:03.:31:07.

be able to defy any three line whip on this? That is not normally the

:31:08.:31:14.

case. But they did on an early vote that the government introduced on

:31:15.:31:18.

Article 50. Those who voted against it are still there. In the Blair

:31:19.:31:24.

years, you certainly couldn't defy a three line whip. We will see what

:31:25.:31:29.

happens going forward. I remember when the Tories were hopelessly

:31:30.:31:35.

divided over the EU. All these Maastricht votes and an list

:31:36.:31:39.

arguments. Now it is Labour. Just another symptom of Mr Corbyn's poor

:31:40.:31:52.

leadership. Not at all. Two thirds voted to leave, a third to remain.

:31:53.:31:57.

We are seeking to bring the country and the party together. We will do

:31:58.:32:02.

that by pointing out how disastrous a Tory Brexit would be. Meanwhile,

:32:03.:32:12.

around 80 Labour MPs will defy a three line whip. It's too early to

:32:13.:32:18.

say that. Will you publish what you believe the negotiating goal should

:32:19.:32:23.

be? We are clear on it. We think that the economy, jobs and living

:32:24.:32:28.

standards should be the priority. What Theresa May is saying is that

:32:29.:32:33.

holding her party together is her priority. She is putting party above

:32:34.:32:39.

country. Does Labour think we should remain members of the single market?

:32:40.:32:45.

Ideally, in terms of jobs and the economy, of course. Ritt -ish

:32:46.:32:51.

business thinks that as well. Is Labour policy that we should remain

:32:52.:32:54.

a member of the single market? Labour leaves that jobs and the

:32:55.:32:59.

economy comes first, and if they come first, you would want to remain

:33:00.:33:05.

part of the single market. But to remain a member? Jobs and the

:33:06.:33:11.

economy comes first, and to do that, ideally, guess. So with that, comes

:33:12.:33:17.

free movement of people, the jurisdiction of the European, and a

:33:18.:33:21.

multi-million never shipped thief. Is Labour prepared to pay that?

:33:22.:33:30.

Money is neither here nor there. Because the Tories will be asked to

:33:31.:33:38.

pay a lot of money... The EU has made it clear that you cannot

:33:39.:33:44.

have... I am asking for Labour's position. Our position is rooted in

:33:45.:33:50.

the reality, and the reality is that you cannot have the benefits of the

:33:51.:33:54.

member of the European Union, including being a member of the

:33:55.:33:58.

single market, without responsibility, including free

:33:59.:34:03.

movement of people. Free movement, is remaining under the jurisdiction

:34:04.:34:08.

of the European Court of Justice. Is that the Labour position? You've

:34:09.:34:15.

said that Labour wants to remain a member of the single market. That is

:34:16.:34:20.

the price tag that comes with it. Does Labour agree with paying that

:34:21.:34:26.

price tag? We are not pre-empting negotiation. Our goals are protect

:34:27.:34:31.

jobs and the British economy. Is it Labour's position that we remain a

:34:32.:34:36.

member of the customs union? Well, if we don't, I don't see how Theresa

:34:37.:34:50.

May can keep our promises and has unfettered access... You said

:34:51.:34:55.

Labour's position was clear. It is! It is clear that Theresa May... I am

:34:56.:35:03.

not asking about Theresa May. Is it Labour's position to remain a member

:35:04.:35:10.

of the customs union? It is Labour's position to do what is right for

:35:11.:35:15.

British industry. Depending on how the negotiations go, it may prove

:35:16.:35:20.

that coming out of the customs union, as Theresa May has indicated

:35:21.:35:24.

she wants to do, could prove catastrophic, and could actually

:35:25.:35:31.

destroy some of her promises. You do accept that if we are member of the

:35:32.:35:35.

customs union, we cannot do our own free trade deals? What free trade

:35:36.:35:44.

deals are you talking about? The ones that Labour might want to do in

:35:45.:35:50.

the future. First, we have to protect British jobs and British

:35:51.:35:53.

industries. If you are talking about free trade deals with Donald Trump,

:35:54.:35:58.

the danger is that Theresa May will get drawn into a free-trade deal

:35:59.:36:03.

with America that will open up the NHS to American corporate... The

:36:04.:36:10.

cards are in Theresa May's hands. If she takes us out of the single

:36:11.:36:15.

market, if she takes us out of the customs union, we will have to deal

:36:16.:36:19.

with that. How big a crisis for Jeremy Corbyn will be if Labour

:36:20.:36:25.

loses both by-elections in February. I don't believe we will lose both.

:36:26.:36:31.

But if he did? I am not anticipating that. Is Labour lost two seats in a

:36:32.:36:40.

midterm of a Tory government, would that be business as usual? I'm not

:36:41.:36:43.

prepared to see us lose those seats, so I will not talk about something

:36:44.:36:45.

that will not happen. Thank you. You're watching

:36:46.:36:49.

the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:36:50.:36:50.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:36:51.:36:53.

minutes, The Week Ahead, when we'll be talking

:36:54.:36:56.

to Business Minister Margot James about the government's

:36:57.:36:58.

new industrial strategy and that crucial Supreme Court

:36:59.:37:01.

ruling on Brexit. First, though, the Sunday

:37:02.:37:04.

Politics where you are. Going underground, we reveal

:37:05.:37:13.

the real problems in the bowels of Westminster, making the case

:37:14.:37:22.

for moving Parliament elsewhere. I think the best thing

:37:23.:37:27.

is if we move out completely. I don't buy into this

:37:28.:37:32.

idea if we move out, And leading the campaign

:37:33.:37:34.

against moving Parliament, Shailesh Vara, the Conservative MP

:37:35.:37:44.

for North West Cambridgeshire, and with us also today,

:37:45.:37:48.

Dr Julian Huppert for the Lib Dems, former

:37:49.:37:50.

Cambridge MP who will fight But we start with maintenance

:37:51.:37:53.

grants for students. If you want to go to

:37:54.:37:58.

university this autumn, this week was the deadline

:37:59.:38:00.

for your application. It is the first year that

:38:01.:38:02.

disadvantaged students will no longer be able to get

:38:03.:38:05.

a maintenance grant. They've been scrapped

:38:06.:38:09.

by the Government and been According to the latest

:38:10.:38:11.

figures, in this region, 35,000 students received more

:38:12.:38:19.

than ?114 million in So, will it make a difference

:38:20.:38:21.

when they are withdrawn? Alexi is in his second year studying

:38:22.:38:31.

politics and sociology He receives around ?3500

:38:32.:38:38.

a year from the Government in maintenance grants,

:38:39.:38:44.

money to help with living costs of being at university that does not

:38:45.:38:46.

have to be paid back. Just a few more days

:38:47.:38:52.

and it will be over. A few more days and

:38:53.:38:57.

we can party hard. I am from a single-parent family

:38:58.:39:03.

and my sister and I are both at university now and it is

:39:04.:39:06.

a huge burden on my mum. Even the maintenance

:39:07.:39:09.

loan and grant together, there is a shortfall in terms of how

:39:10.:39:12.

much you actually need for living, particularly now my sister doesn't

:39:13.:39:15.

have a maintenance grant It means that there is a massive

:39:16.:39:18.

shortfall and she's going to have to pay a huge amount more interest

:39:19.:39:25.

when she leaves university in debt. There is concern the high levels

:39:26.:39:27.

of debt will make some people think I think the change from grants

:39:28.:39:31.

to loans will put off quite a few students,

:39:32.:39:36.

particularly students Partially because they are so debt

:39:37.:39:37.

averse and they are thinking about, once I have gone to university,

:39:38.:39:44.

how much debt am I going Only 3% of students from the most

:39:45.:39:47.

disadvantaged families go to top universities like these, compared

:39:48.:39:52.

to 20% from the most well off. This is something universities

:39:53.:39:57.

are keen to improve so will be watching with interest to see

:39:58.:40:00.

what impact the Government's In the latest figures from 2014,

:40:01.:40:02.

Cambridge University had 26% of students receiving

:40:03.:40:09.

maintenance grants. For the other universities

:40:10.:40:11.

in the east, the figures climb, and at the top on 56%

:40:12.:40:15.

is the University of Bedfordshire. One of the Cambridge colleges

:40:16.:40:20.

is trying to address this by introducing studentships

:40:21.:40:23.

and a grant of up to ?9,500 a year to help with living costs of those

:40:24.:40:28.

most in need. I want my students here in college

:40:29.:40:34.

to be financially sound, they can participate

:40:35.:40:36.

in all the educational activities that are happening in the college,

:40:37.:40:39.

without any financial worries. It is not just so-called elite

:40:40.:40:46.

universities trying to make sure Anglia Ruskin has an outreach

:40:47.:40:48.

programme that includes speaking to sixth formers and parents

:40:49.:40:53.

about the new student We've been presenting it to parents

:40:54.:40:55.

and students since we've known what the system is and I've not had

:40:56.:41:02.

a negative reaction from anyone. People take the information

:41:03.:41:07.

and are grateful for understanding what it is and how it is put

:41:08.:41:11.

together and it does not If you want to go to university,

:41:12.:41:14.

the system is the system presented to you and you consider

:41:15.:41:20.

the system you have got and you cannot wish for last

:41:21.:41:22.

year because that is not going to be For a normal boy like Alexi,

:41:23.:41:26.

going to King's College Cambridge is a dream come true and his hope

:41:27.:41:30.

for the future is that other students will be able

:41:31.:41:35.

to follow in his footsteps. For poorer people,

:41:36.:41:37.

finance is a priority, when it comes to deciding

:41:38.:41:39.

whether to go to university. To think about looming debt

:41:40.:41:43.

when you are leaving, as well as the interest

:41:44.:41:46.

you are paying on that, on that It was for me and I am sure

:41:47.:41:49.

it is for a lot of other people too. Well, the Government

:41:50.:41:57.

declined an interview, "We are already seeing record

:41:58.:41:58.

numbers of disadvantaged young We have increased maintenance

:41:59.:42:05.

support for students from the lowest Financial assistance is also

:42:06.:42:09.

available through all universities." Well, earlier this week,

:42:10.:42:22.

I spoke to the Vice Chancellor of the University of Bedfordshire

:42:23.:42:29.

and a former Universities Minister I asked if he was happy

:42:30.:42:31.

that enough people from disadvantaged backgrounds

:42:32.:42:35.

were going to university. Everybody who has the potential

:42:36.:42:37.

to benefit from going to university Historically, students

:42:38.:42:40.

from the poorest backgrounds have not participated at the same rate

:42:41.:42:45.

as those from more However, in the last decade or so,

:42:46.:42:47.

albeit from a low base, there has been a significant

:42:48.:42:53.

acceleration of access from students In fact, faster than the whole

:42:54.:42:57.

student cohort as a whole. That has been driven in part

:42:58.:43:03.

by nonrepayable student grants and it is in that context that

:43:04.:43:06.

I regret the fact that What difference do

:43:07.:43:09.

you think it will make? I think there is a risk that

:43:10.:43:16.

students who may be not willing to take out loan finance

:43:17.:43:25.

will be put off. In part, the Government

:43:26.:43:27.

is compensating by increasing the overall loan finance package

:43:28.:43:29.

that is available. It is going up by about 10% compared

:43:30.:43:38.

to the loan plus nonrepayable grant But of course, that is

:43:39.:43:41.

a loan you have to repay. I think it is really important

:43:42.:43:47.

that we get the message across that there is more money

:43:48.:43:50.

available to students whilst they are actually studying and also

:43:51.:43:52.

that the repayments mechanisms are progressive and fair

:43:53.:43:55.

and that you only repay when you are in work and earning

:43:56.:43:57.

more than ?21,000 a year. It is an affordable system

:43:58.:44:00.

and for anyone who is thinking of going to university,

:44:01.:44:03.

it is still the best But there are mixed signals

:44:04.:44:04.

from the Government. On the one hand, urging universities

:44:05.:44:08.

to recruit more students from poorer backgrounds,

:44:09.:44:10.

which is right, but at the same time, abolishing

:44:11.:44:13.

nonrepayable grants. Being in government,

:44:14.:44:15.

I know it from my background as a government minister,

:44:16.:44:30.

when the last government was in power, I know you have

:44:31.:44:33.

to make difficult choices. I would not have

:44:34.:44:35.

chosen to abolishing Nevertheless, I think

:44:36.:44:40.

it is important that we now are saddled with this system,

:44:41.:44:47.

it is important we get the benefits of the system

:44:48.:44:49.

across to potential students, particularly from the poorest

:44:50.:44:51.

backgrounds, the fact that overall loan finance is increasing

:44:52.:44:54.

by about 10% and the payback, once you are in work and earning,

:44:55.:45:00.

for someone with One last message from you,

:45:01.:45:03.

to anybody who is thinking about going to university

:45:04.:45:08.

and cannot afford it. I would say to anyone

:45:09.:45:10.

with the potential to benefit from going to university,

:45:11.:45:12.

do it, it is the best The vast majority of people never

:45:13.:45:14.

regret that decision The benefit will stay

:45:15.:45:21.

with you right the way up, Julian Huppert, what is your

:45:22.:45:24.

experience, you are in teaching? I think there is a real problem

:45:25.:45:32.

for people from poorer backgrounds and while the point has been made

:45:33.:45:36.

that people get loans which they can which they can pay off,

:45:37.:45:40.

the thing is, if you are doing the sums, you think

:45:41.:45:43.

about things one way. If you are a 17-year-old,

:45:44.:45:46.

you're probably not used to the idea of having thousands of pounds

:45:47.:45:49.

of debt sitting over you. I am worried it will have a huge

:45:50.:45:51.

effect on people like that. When I talk to students,

:45:52.:45:55.

many are not so concerned about what will happen in 10,

:45:56.:45:58.

20 years, they are concerned about having enough money now to pay

:45:59.:46:01.

for somewhere to live, for food, for drink,

:46:02.:46:03.

for the normal parts of life. I think it is really important

:46:04.:46:07.

to try to help, particularly people Otherwise we will continue to see

:46:08.:46:09.

ever growing inequality. But the Government is saying

:46:10.:46:13.

it is putting more money in, There is some money but it is loans

:46:14.:46:15.

and it makes a big difference. While people who may own a house

:46:16.:46:27.

are used to the idea of having a mortgage and people are not that

:46:28.:46:31.

worried about a mortgage, they do not see it as money

:46:32.:46:33.

they do not have and need It is very different if you are 17,

:46:34.:46:36.

18, contemplating owing many thousands of pounds,

:46:37.:46:40.

it has a huge effect on people. Finance a priority, we heard

:46:41.:46:43.

that young student say, Well, first of all, these

:46:44.:46:45.

are difficult decisions. In 2015, there was some ?1.6 billion

:46:46.:46:48.

spent on maintenance grants. If that were to continue,

:46:49.:46:57.

over the next decade, If you stop some poorer

:46:58.:46:59.

families going... When tuition fees were introduced,

:47:00.:47:03.

that was the argument that it would stop poorer

:47:04.:47:10.

people coming forward. If you look at the figures,

:47:11.:47:12.

again in 2015, 2015 alone, 4% more people from poorer

:47:13.:47:18.

backgrounds entered There is that element and also

:47:19.:47:20.

an element of fairness. What you are effectively

:47:21.:47:24.

saying is that people who have further education,

:47:25.:47:29.

we know that as a rule they will earn in their working life

:47:30.:47:34.

a lot more than those who do not We are asking people who do not have

:47:35.:47:38.

further education through taxes to pay for other people

:47:39.:47:42.

to have an education... To have an education

:47:43.:47:44.

which will allow them to have more I think we have to recognise

:47:45.:47:48.

the fairness element. Firstly, the reason why

:47:49.:47:52.

there were more people who came from poorer backgrounds

:47:53.:47:55.

was precisely because of schemes like this that were expanded to help

:47:56.:47:58.

fund people from poorer backgrounds. If you take that away,

:47:59.:48:01.

we will start seeing problems. Yes, people who have a higher

:48:02.:48:08.

education do earn more It is really useful to say

:48:09.:48:10.

that people should... Why should people who are earning

:48:11.:48:14.

pay for other people to go I think the point is

:48:15.:48:20.

that the 17-year-old from a very poor background who may well go

:48:21.:48:24.

on and earn more, if they do learn -- earn more, they will be paying

:48:25.:48:30.

income tax, they will be paying other taxes and we should be quite

:48:31.:48:33.

robust about collecting those, close the loopholes,

:48:34.:48:36.

many things we have talked about before, but at that

:48:37.:48:38.

point when someone of 17, like the man we saw,

:48:39.:48:40.

from a single-parent family, Disadvantage against advantage,

:48:41.:48:42.

those people from advantaged backgrounds are more likely

:48:43.:48:50.

to have a successful life. It has always been the case

:48:51.:48:54.

that those who have a generous wallet are going to be better off

:48:55.:48:57.

in life in many other ways. But there is more

:48:58.:49:00.

to life than money. What I would say to Julian

:49:01.:49:07.

about the 17-year-old boy, he is not going to be asked to repay

:49:08.:49:11.

that at the age of 17. There is a threshold that

:49:12.:49:15.

when he starts working, that is when he starts to pay,

:49:16.:49:17.

only if he is earning MPs have got a lot on their minds

:49:18.:49:20.

at the moment, including the future of the Houses

:49:21.:49:25.

of Parliament themselves. The building is in desperate

:49:26.:49:28.

need of renovation. Next week, MPs will discuss a plan

:49:29.:49:30.

to move out altogether for six years There are some strong

:49:31.:49:33.

feelings on the matter. Mr Vara is one of those who want

:49:34.:49:44.

them to stay where they are. We will hear from him

:49:45.:49:48.

in a moment about why. First, we have been on a special

:49:49.:49:50.

tour of one of the most famous Watch yourselves

:49:51.:49:53.

as you come through. We're heading into one of the main

:49:54.:50:01.

pipe vaults of the Palace which we are now walking through has

:50:02.:50:11.

been completely filled with pipework, wiring,

:50:12.:50:19.

everything you need to keep a big Practically, getting to this stuff

:50:20.:50:21.

right at the top now is impossible because of the way we have layered

:50:22.:50:26.

stuff on top of stuff. Everything you see here would have

:50:27.:50:29.

to be replaced under Lots of it dates from the 1950s,

:50:30.:50:31.

though as I said, there is stuff As you head deeper into the Palace,

:50:32.:50:35.

start to crouch down a lot more, we are in a situation

:50:36.:50:40.

where there is physically not enough That are 240 miles worth of cabling

:50:41.:50:42.

and it is just chaos. We know what type of cables

:50:43.:50:47.

they are but we do not know where they run,

:50:48.:50:50.

what they serve and what they do. This is our current

:50:51.:50:53.

telephone system. The real risk for us

:50:54.:50:55.

is a catastrophic failure of the systems leading to a fire

:50:56.:51:03.

and that fire could end up taking hold and we could lose big portions

:51:04.:51:07.

of the building. Everything you can see down

:51:08.:51:13.

here in the basement is visible but all of these pipes and wires end

:51:14.:51:25.

up in the 1100 rooms we have in the Palace,

:51:26.:51:28.

going through all the fine areas, so for us to replace this

:51:29.:51:30.

on the upper floors means pulling the building apart,

:51:31.:51:33.

all of those fine decorative panels would come off the wall for us

:51:34.:51:35.

to replace the system This is just another example

:51:36.:51:38.

of some of the crumbling conditions we have got,

:51:39.:51:42.

down to the extreme heat Some of this is superficial,

:51:43.:51:45.

just on the surface. At the end of the day,

:51:46.:51:48.

we should not be putting this building through the sort

:51:49.:51:51.

of pressures we are putting it through in terms of the environment

:51:52.:51:53.

we are forcing it to work in. Here we are in one of the almost

:51:54.:51:56.

forgotten courtyards of the Palace of Westminster,

:51:57.:51:59.

on the roof. One of the oldest

:52:00.:52:01.

courtyards we have got. You can start to see

:52:02.:52:03.

the crumbling conditions. That is down to pollution

:52:04.:52:05.

and generally the age. We need to get in here in this

:52:06.:52:07.

courtyard to do the huge amount of restoration

:52:08.:52:10.

work, conservation work. It is not just about doing

:52:11.:52:11.

the replacement of the mechanical and electrical plant

:52:12.:52:16.

in the basement, it is about Retaining what is an iconic

:52:17.:52:18.

building of Britain. Under the proposals, MPs would move

:52:19.:52:24.

into the Department of Health. The Lords would go to the Queen

:52:25.:52:31.

Elizabeth Conference Centre nearby. The plans will be

:52:32.:52:34.

debated on Wednesday. This is the centre of

:52:35.:52:40.

democracy in the world, This place here, if you start

:52:41.:52:42.

undermining the presence of MPs in Westminster,

:52:43.:52:46.

the elected MPs, then I think we are talking

:52:47.:52:48.

about a serious issue. You see steam pipes

:52:49.:52:53.

near electricity cables near communications cables

:52:54.:52:58.

and so on, it is an I think therefore that the safest

:52:59.:53:00.

option, as well as in the end the cheapest option is to get out

:53:01.:53:04.

of it, let the workers get on with it and then

:53:05.:53:07.

we will have the best result I think the best thing

:53:08.:53:10.

is if we move out completely. When the building was built 150

:53:11.:53:18.

years ago, over a 20-year period, the peers and the commoners insisted

:53:19.:53:23.

on operating within the ruins, if you like,

:53:24.:53:31.

and they complained day in, day out, about the noise,

:53:32.:53:36.

not enough being done for them, and it proved a great distraction

:53:37.:53:39.

to the engineers. Safest and cheapest,

:53:40.:53:41.

if they go out completely? The proposals say we should be

:53:42.:53:48.

leaving, peers and MPs and all our staff, in six years'

:53:49.:53:57.

time and then we would be out for another 6-8 years and they say

:53:58.:54:01.

it would cost 3.5 billion. But those are flawed figures

:54:02.:54:03.

because the report makes several caveats and in fact on the opening

:54:04.:54:06.

page, it says the budget still needs significant work by professionals

:54:07.:54:09.

to do proper costings. They do say it is going to cost

:54:10.:54:11.

a lot more if they work around you. What I'm saying is that an eight

:54:12.:54:15.

acre site, they should be I am not prepared to look

:54:16.:54:21.

a constituent in the eye and say that they cannot have extra money

:54:22.:54:25.

for whatever and yet commission ?3.5 billion to be spent

:54:26.:54:28.

on the place where I do my work. What I would suggest is that

:54:29.:54:31.

what they do is spend a longer time working around us and we will pay

:54:32.:54:37.

as the work gets done and it At a time of austerity,

:54:38.:54:41.

I do not think we should be The other thing, very important,

:54:42.:54:45.

at this very important time in our history,

:54:46.:54:49.

at a time of Brexit, when we are going to be wanting

:54:50.:54:55.

new friends overseas, seeking favourable trade agreements,

:54:56.:54:58.

do we really want to be working from a temporary House of Commons,

:54:59.:55:00.

in the courtyard of What are our opponents

:55:01.:55:03.

going to be saying? They will say, this is UK Plc,

:55:04.:55:06.

doing their own thing, they will have a picture

:55:07.:55:15.

of the temporary building and they will say, this is UK Plc

:55:16.:55:18.

doing its own thing. We ought to be making

:55:19.:55:21.

maximum use of this iconic It has a huge power

:55:22.:55:24.

in terms of soft sell. Yes, it is falling apart

:55:25.:55:30.

and work needs to be done. It is not fit to be a contemporary

:55:31.:55:36.

parliament building. There are all sorts of ways

:55:37.:55:39.

in which it is not good enough. I don't recall Julian ever once

:55:40.:55:42.

complaining it was not good enough. When you have an eight acre site

:55:43.:55:55.

that was designed... I think it is very archaic,

:55:56.:55:57.

not fit for the way democracy should work now, the way the Chamber is set

:55:58.:56:06.

up, the way it doesn't deal with electronics,

:56:07.:56:09.

the inability to get Wi-Fi He says he does not want to work

:56:10.:56:11.

in a courtyard somewhere else. I think working on a building site

:56:12.:56:22.

would look far more ridiculous. But far more important

:56:23.:56:25.

than the prestige is actually how much money is going to be

:56:26.:56:27.

spent on this. It is an iconic

:56:28.:56:29.

building, no question. I think both of those

:56:30.:56:32.

will probably go up. I would like to see something

:56:33.:56:39.

that is done cheaper, It is not about making MPs feel

:56:40.:56:41.

happy in a famous building but about not wasting taxpayers'

:56:42.:56:45.

money and getting One word from you, will the vote

:56:46.:56:47.

go your way or against you? This is going to be

:56:48.:56:52.

Westminster Hall where there Now for our round-up

:56:53.:56:59.

of the political Week Schoolchildren in Ipswich

:57:00.:57:04.

could benefit after it was named as one of the Government's

:57:05.:57:11.

new opportunity areas. The ?70 million scheme is designed

:57:12.:57:15.

to improve social mobility. Food producers from the region

:57:16.:57:28.

warned MPs this week that continued free

:57:29.:57:31.

access to migrant workers was absolutely vital

:57:32.:57:34.

for their businesses. We absolutely would not be able

:57:35.:57:35.

to operate without access In what might be a first,

:57:36.:57:38.

every single Conservative MP from Bedfordshire got to their feet

:57:39.:57:48.

at Prime Minister's Question Time, including a surprise

:57:49.:57:51.

intervention from a key member Could I commend my right honourable

:57:52.:57:54.

friend for her remarks yesterday, not least the constructive tone

:57:55.:57:58.

she took towards the EU and the future of the EU in marked

:57:59.:58:01.

contrast to others we have heard over the years from many

:58:02.:58:04.

different quarters in the UK? And not for the first time,

:58:05.:58:08.

Suffolk MP and Defra Minister was put in place by a helpful

:58:09.:58:16.

Speaker, John Bercow. LAUGHTER

:58:17.:58:32.

He praised the tone of the Prime Minister's speech, not the content.

:58:33.:58:36.

What is important here is the fact that there were a lot of remainers

:58:37.:58:42.

who recognise 17.4 million people voted in a particular way and we

:58:43.:58:45.

need to get on and respect that decision. Democracy has

:58:46.:58:51.

consequences. I think we are seeing more and more people than the macro

:58:52.:58:56.

problems. Food producers speaking. People did vote but it was partly on

:58:57.:58:59.

a promise we would stay in the single market and there would be

:59:00.:59:03.

extra for the NHS. We should give people the chance to comment on the

:59:04.:59:07.

deal. Where was the promise made about staying in the single market?

:59:08.:59:11.

I can point you to lots of vote leave websites. It is not saying

:59:12.:59:20.

that they will stay in it. It was a conservative manifesto commitment to

:59:21.:59:25.

stay in the single market. We said there would be a referendum and it

:59:26.:59:30.

would be a simple yes or no. It was in my literature. There was a

:59:31.:59:34.

separate peace. We can have a look. The great thing about faxes we can

:59:35.:59:38.

look at the manifesto. I would urge people to do that. -- facts. We need

:59:39.:59:44.

a vote on the deal. Is it what people wanted? Was it a good speech?

:59:45.:59:49.

No, I found it depressing. It will be hugely damaging for the country.

:59:50.:59:53.

Excellent speech, set out very clearly... Very loyal! Fine macro it

:59:54.:59:59.

made it clear to the European Union that there is something in this for

:00:00.:00:03.

both sides. Thank you both of us for being with us this week. You can

:00:04.:00:07.

keep in Dutch on our website. We are back

:00:08.:00:07.

have to do this. Thank you to you both.

:00:08.:00:10.

What exactly is the government's industrial strategy?

:00:11.:00:20.

Will ministers lose their supreme court battle over Brexit, and,

:00:21.:00:23.

Well, tomorrow Theresa May is launching the government's

:00:24.:00:36.

industrial strategy - and to talk about that we're joined

:00:37.:00:39.

by the Business Minister, Margot James - welcome to the show.

:00:40.:00:47.

When you look at what has already been released in advance of the

:00:48.:00:54.

Prime Minister's statement, it was embargoed for last night, it's not

:00:55.:01:00.

really an industrial strategy, it's just another skills strategy, of

:01:01.:01:04.

which we have had about six since the war, and our skills training is

:01:05.:01:11.

among the worst in Western Europe? There will be plenty more to be

:01:12.:01:15.

announced tomorrow in what is really a discussion document in the

:01:16.:01:19.

preparation of an industrial strategy which we intend to launch

:01:20.:01:23.

properly later in the year. Let's look at skills. You are allocating

:01:24.:01:32.

117 of funding to establish institutes of technology. How many?

:01:33.:01:38.

The exact number is to be agreed, but the spend is there, and it will

:01:39.:01:44.

be on top of what we are doing to the university, technical

:01:45.:01:47.

colleges... How many were lit bio create? We don't know exactly, but

:01:48.:01:53.

we want to put them in areas where young people are performing under

:01:54.:01:57.

the national average. But if you don't know how many, what is the

:01:58.:02:04.

basis of 170 million? That is the amount the Treasury have released.

:02:05.:02:08.

The something that is very important, we are agreed we need to

:02:09.:02:13.

devote more resources to vocational training and get it on a par with

:02:14.:02:19.

academic qualifications. I looked on the website of my old university,

:02:20.:02:25.

the University of Glasgow, the Russell group universities. Its

:02:26.:02:30.

spending budget every year is over 600 million. That's one University.

:02:31.:02:38.

And yet you have a mere 170 million foreign unspecified number of

:02:39.:02:43.

institutes of technology. It hasn't got equality with the academics? You

:02:44.:02:48.

have to remember that just as you have quoted figures from Glasgow

:02:49.:02:52.

University there are further education colleges all over the

:02:53.:02:56.

country. The government is already spending on 16 to 19-year-olds. But

:02:57.:03:05.

also, we are going to be adding... This is new money that is all to the

:03:06.:03:10.

good, because we are already spending a lot. We have already

:03:11.:03:15.

created 2 million more apprentices since 2010. That many are not in

:03:16.:03:19.

what we would call the stem skills, and a lot come nowhere near what the

:03:20.:03:24.

Dutch, Germans and Austrians would have. I'm not clear how another 170

:03:25.:03:30.

million would do. You said it is more than skills. In what way is

:03:31.:03:35.

this industrial strategy different from what Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne

:03:36.:03:46.

did before? It's different because it is involving every single

:03:47.:03:48.

government department, and bringing together everything that government

:03:49.:03:51.

does in a bid to make Britain more competitive as it disengages from

:03:52.:03:54.

the European Union. That is what the last Labour government did. They

:03:55.:04:00.

will much more targeted interventions. Under the Labour

:04:01.:04:04.

government, the auto industry got some benefit. A few more sectors

:04:05.:04:09.

were broached under the coalition government. This is all about

:04:10.:04:13.

communities all over the country, some of whom have fallen behind in

:04:14.:04:18.

terms of wage growth and good jobs. The Prime Minister has already

:04:19.:04:24.

announced 2 billion as a research and development priority in specific

:04:25.:04:31.

technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, medical technology,

:04:32.:04:35.

satellites... So you are doing what has been done before. There is

:04:36.:04:40.

nothing new about this. Wait until tomorrow, because there will be some

:04:41.:04:45.

new strands emerging. It is the beginning of the dialogue with

:04:46.:04:48.

industry and with workers, and the responses will be invited up until

:04:49.:04:55.

April. That will inform a wider strategy that goes beyond skills. I

:04:56.:05:00.

have moved on to beyond them. I'm slightly puzzled as to how the

:05:01.:05:05.

government knows where to invest in robotics, when it can't even provide

:05:06.:05:11.

the NHS with a decent IT system. Discuss. I have to say I find it

:05:12.:05:16.

bizarre that the government is making an announcement about an

:05:17.:05:19.

amount of money and don't know where it's going. This is typical of all

:05:20.:05:24.

governments over all political shoes, which is total disregard for

:05:25.:05:30.

technical education, so different from Germany, who actually invest in

:05:31.:05:38.

the technological side. Germany has a long history. We want to emulate

:05:39.:05:44.

some of the best of what German companies do. Siemens sponsor

:05:45.:05:49.

primary schools, for example. We want to get a dialogue on with

:05:50.:05:55.

business. We don't want to decide where this money is going. By the

:05:56.:06:00.

way, it was 4.7 billion that the government has agreed to invest in

:06:01.:06:05.

science and research, which is the most significant increase in

:06:06.:06:09.

decades. Can you remind us what happened in Northern Ireland, when

:06:10.:06:13.

the government invested money in state-of-the-art technology for

:06:14.:06:17.

energy? No one needs to be reminded of that, and that is not what we are

:06:18.:06:24.

doing. We are inviting business and industry to advise where that money

:06:25.:06:29.

is best spent. That's very different from government deciding that a

:06:30.:06:35.

particular technology is for the future. The government's chief

:06:36.:06:40.

scientific adviser has determined that we will invest a huge amount in

:06:41.:06:45.

battery technology, which should benefit the electric car industry,

:06:46.:06:50.

and... This is taxpayers' money. Who gets it? Ultimately, business will

:06:51.:06:57.

get it, but often only when there is a considerable amount of private

:06:58.:07:02.

sector finance also drawn in. But who is held to account? Various

:07:03.:07:10.

government departments at local authorities will hold this list to

:07:11.:07:15.

account. A lot of it is about releasing private capital as well.

:07:16.:07:21.

Thank you very much. This week, the Supreme Court, I think we know the

:07:22.:07:29.

ruling is coming on Tuesday. And the expectation is that the judges will

:07:30.:07:33.

say Parliament will have to vote to trigger. Is this all much ado about

:07:34.:07:38.

nothing? Parliament will vote to trigger, and the government will win

:07:39.:07:42.

in the Lords and the Commons by substantial majorities, and it will

:07:43.:07:46.

be triggered? Completely. We've known that. Parliament is voted.

:07:47.:07:51.

Everyone is pretty confident that the Supreme Court will uphold the

:07:52.:07:55.

High Court's decision and say it has to go to MPs. There will be a bit of

:07:56.:08:04.

toing and froing among MPs on amendments. You heard Diane Abbott's

:08:05.:08:09.

slightly car crash interview there. The Lib Dems may throw something in,

:08:10.:08:13.

but we will trigger Article 50 by the end of March. If it also says

:08:14.:08:20.

that the roll of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast should be picked up,

:08:21.:08:25.

that could complicate matters. Absolutely. That could delay the

:08:26.:08:29.

planned triggering of Article 50 before the end of March. Not what

:08:30.:08:34.

they say about the Westminster Parliament, because it is clear that

:08:35.:08:39.

it was. I never understood the furore about that original judgment,

:08:40.:08:44.

because every MP made it clear they wouldn't block it. Even though Diane

:08:45.:08:48.

Abbott was evasive on several fronts, she said they wouldn't block

:08:49.:08:54.

it. You are right, if they give a vote, or give some authorisation for

:08:55.:08:58.

the Scottish Parliament and other devolved assemblies, that might

:08:59.:09:03.

delay the whole sequence. That is the only significant thing to watch

:09:04.:09:09.

out for. Watch out on Tuesday. Mrs May goes to Washington. It will be

:09:10.:09:14.

another movie in the making! I would suggest that she has a tricky line

:09:15.:09:19.

to follow. She has got to be seen to be taking advantage of the fact that

:09:20.:09:24.

there is a very pro-British, pro-Brexit president in the Oval

:09:25.:09:29.

Office, who I am told is prepared to expend political capital on this.

:09:30.:09:33.

But on the other hand, to make sure that she is not what we used to call

:09:34.:09:46.

Mr Blair, George Bush's poodle. It is very difficult, and who would not

:09:47.:09:49.

want to be a fly on the wall in that meeting! I can't think of anyone in

:09:50.:09:53.

the world who would despise Mr Trump more than Mrs May, and for him, he

:09:54.:09:58.

dislikes any woman who does not look like a supermodel, no disrespected

:09:59.:10:09.

Mrs May. Most of it is actually anti-EU, and I think we should

:10:10.:10:12.

capitalise it. Let's get the Queen to earn her money, roll out the red

:10:13.:10:17.

carpet, invite him to dinner, spend the night, what ever we need...

:10:18.:10:25.

Trump at Balmoral! Here is the issue, because the agenda is, as we

:10:26.:10:29.

heard from Ted Malloch earlier, that this is not an administration that

:10:30.:10:35.

has much time for the EU, EU integration or Germany. I think

:10:36.:10:38.

Germany will be the second biggest loser to begin with. They will not

:10:39.:10:43.

even give a date for Angela Merkel to meet the president. This is an

:10:44.:10:51.

opportunity for Mrs May... It is a huge. It could sideline talks of the

:10:52.:11:00.

punishment beating from Germany. The Trump presidency has completely

:11:01.:11:06.

changed the field on Brexit. Along came Donald Trump, and Theresa May

:11:07.:11:10.

has this incredible opportunity here. Not of her making, but she has

:11:11.:11:16.

played her cards well. To an officially be the EU emissary to

:11:17.:11:21.

Washington, to get some sort of broker going. That gives us huge

:11:22.:11:26.

extra leveraged in the Brexit negotiations. People around the

:11:27.:11:30.

world think Germany as a currency manipulator, that it is benefiting

:11:31.:11:35.

from an underpriced euro, hence the huge surplus it runs of America, and

:11:36.:11:39.

they think it is disgraceful that a country that runs a massive budget

:11:40.:11:45.

surplus spends only 1.2% of its GDP on defence, and America runs a

:11:46.:11:50.

massive deficit and needs to spend a lot more. He's going for Germany.

:11:51.:11:56.

And what a massive shift. I think Obama was quite open, in a farewell

:11:57.:12:01.

interview, that he felt closer to Merkel than any other European

:12:02.:12:06.

leader. And Jamie kind of reflected that in our discussion. Yes, that's

:12:07.:12:13.

very interesting discussion. I think she was the last person he spoke to

:12:14.:12:17.

in the White House, Obama. And now you are getting the onslaught from

:12:18.:12:24.

Trump. This Thatcher- Reagan imagery is dangerous, though. Blair was

:12:25.:12:28.

hypnotised by it and was too scared to criticise Bush, because he wanted

:12:29.:12:33.

to be seen in that light, and we know where that led. Cameron

:12:34.:12:38.

similarly with Obama, which presented him with problems, as

:12:39.:12:42.

Obama didn't regard him as his number one pin up in Europe. I would

:12:43.:12:49.

put a note of caution in there about the Thatcher - Reagan parallel.

:12:50.:12:54.

Everything Trump is doing now is different from before, so Mrs May

:12:55.:12:59.

should not have any of these previous relationships in her mind.

:13:00.:13:05.

That is not entirely true. Donald Trump aches to be the new Ronald

:13:06.:13:12.

Reagan. He may be impeached first! He sees her as the new Margaret

:13:13.:13:16.

Thatcher, and that may her leveraged with him. Thank you.

:13:17.:13:24.

We'll be back here at the same time next week, and you can catch up

:13:25.:13:29.

on all the latest political news on the Daily Politics,

:13:30.:13:31.

In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:32.:13:35.

It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,

:13:36.:14:13.

it feels much more violent, dark and exciting.

:14:14.:14:36.

Join Michael Buerk as he explores the dishes fit for kings and queens.

:14:37.:14:41.

When it comes to extravagance, few monarchs can compete with George IV.

:14:42.:14:46.

If that was for breakfast, I dread to think what he had for dinner.

:14:47.:14:50.

Andrew Neil, Stewart White and guests including shadow home secretary Diane Abbott provide reaction to Theresa May's Brexit speech and look at the inauguration of US president Donald Trump. On the political panel are Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRadio, Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun and broadcaster and journalist Steve Richards.