29/01/2017 Sunday Politics East


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29/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Stewart White are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:10.:01:13.

mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.

:01:14.:01:18.

Here in the East - Milton Keynes celebrates its 50th anniversary.

:01:19.:01:21.

But will a government plan for new garden towns really

:01:22.:01:23.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:24.:01:28.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:29.:01:30.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:31.:01:33.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:34.:01:36.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:37.:01:38.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:39.:01:40.

And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:41.:01:42.

panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:43.:01:44.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:45.:01:46.

It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:47.:01:49.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:50.:01:52.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:53.:01:58.

Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:01:59.:02:01.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:02:02.:02:06.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:07.:02:08.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

:02:09.:02:14.

Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:15.:02:17.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:18.:02:26.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:27.:02:28.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:29.:02:32.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:33.:02:38.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:39.:02:43.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:44.:02:45.

The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:46.:02:51.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:52.:02:54.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:55.:02:57.

Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:58.:03:12.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:13.:03:14.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:15.:03:17.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:18.:03:23.

She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:24.:03:27.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:28.:03:32.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:33.:03:34.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:35.:03:38.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:39.:03:42.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:43.:03:44.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:45.:03:47.

The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:48.:03:50.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:51.:03:54.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:55.:04:05.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:06.:04:14.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:15.:04:18.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:19.:04:22.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:23.:04:29.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:30.:04:33.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:34.:04:39.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:40.:04:43.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:44.:04:48.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:49.:04:53.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:54.:04:56.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:57.:04:59.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:05:00.:05:04.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:05.:05:08.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:09.:05:11.

wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:12.:05:16.

moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:17.:05:21.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:22.:05:25.

hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:26.:05:32.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:33.:05:36.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:37.:05:39.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

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have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:43.:05:45.

Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:46.:05:48.

understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:49.:05:53.

the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:54.:05:56.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

:05:57.:06:01.

temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:06:02.:06:06.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:07.:06:12.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

:06:13.:06:16.

temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

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wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

:06:23.:06:26.

and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

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It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

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arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:35.:06:39.

been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

:06:40.:06:44.

I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:45.:06:48.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:49.:07:01.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:07:02.:07:07.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:08.:07:11.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:12.:07:14.

this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

:07:15.:07:18.

because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:19.:07:21.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

:07:22.:07:26.

you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:27.:07:32.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:33.:07:35.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:36.:07:39.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:40.:07:42.

country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:43.:07:48.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:49.:07:52.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:53.:07:57.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:07:58.:08:00.

should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:08:01.:08:04.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:05.:08:10.

Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:11.:08:12.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:13.:08:17.

believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:18.:08:23.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:24.:08:27.

number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:28.:08:30.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:31.:08:33.

of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:34.:08:39.

where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:40.:08:42.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

:08:43.:08:52.

Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:53.:08:58.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:08:59.:09:02.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:03.:09:07.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:08.:09:13.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:14.:09:17.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:18.:09:23.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:24.:09:28.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:29.:09:36.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:37.:09:41.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:42.:09:45.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:46.:09:48.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:49.:09:51.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:52.:09:57.

does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:58.:10:02.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:03.:10:05.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:06.:10:10.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:11.:10:15.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:16.:10:19.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:20.:10:24.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:25.:10:28.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:29.:10:33.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:34.:10:39.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:40.:10:42.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:43.:10:47.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:48.:10:52.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:53.:10:58.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:10:59.:11:02.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:03.:11:05.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:06.:11:13.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:14.:11:17.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:18.:11:22.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:23.:11:26.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:27.:11:29.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:30.:11:38.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:39.:11:44.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:45.:11:48.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

:11:49.:11:54.

with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:55.:11:58.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:11:59.:12:04.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:05.:12:09.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:10.:12:14.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:15.:12:19.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:20.:12:23.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:24.:12:29.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:30.:12:33.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:34.:12:37.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:38.:12:41.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:42.:12:46.

something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:47.:12:50.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:51.:12:54.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:55.:12:59.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:13:00.:13:04.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:05.:13:06.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:07.:13:11.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:12.:13:14.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:15.:13:18.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:19.:13:23.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:24.:13:27.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:28.:13:31.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:32.:13:35.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:36.:13:39.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:40.:13:45.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:46.:13:47.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:48.:13:51.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:52.:13:54.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:55.:13:56.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:57.:13:59.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:14:00.:14:01.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:14:02.:14:03.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:04.:14:05.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:06.:14:07.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:08.:14:12.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:13.:14:14.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:15.:14:23.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:24.:14:26.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:27.:14:30.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:31.:14:36.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:37.:14:37.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:38.:14:43.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:44.:14:47.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:48.:14:50.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:51.:14:52.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:53.:14:58.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:14:59.:15:00.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:15:01.:15:03.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:04.:15:07.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:08.:15:22.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:23.:15:27.

United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:28.:15:31.

appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:32.:15:35.

was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:36.:15:39.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:40.:15:47.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:48.:15:53.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:54.:15:59.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:16:00.:16:03.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:04.:16:09.

look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:10.:16:12.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:13.:16:18.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:19.:16:22.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:23.:16:26.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:27.:16:31.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:32.:16:36.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:37.:16:40.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:41.:16:44.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:45.:16:48.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:49.:16:55.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:56.:17:03.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:04.:17:07.

comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:08.:17:12.

policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:13.:17:17.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:18.:17:20.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:21.:17:29.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:30.:17:34.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:35.:17:39.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:40.:17:43.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:44.:17:47.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:48.:17:51.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:52.:17:56.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:57.:18:00.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:18:01.:18:05.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:06.:18:10.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:11.:18:13.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:14.:18:24.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:25.:18:32.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:33.:18:36.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:37.:18:38.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:39.:18:45.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:46.:18:48.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:49.:18:54.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:55.:19:00.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:19:01.:19:04.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:05.:19:07.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:08.:19:14.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:15.:19:17.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:18.:19:21.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:22.:19:24.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:25.:19:28.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:29.:19:33.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:34.:19:40.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:41.:19:44.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:45.:19:48.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:49.:19:53.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:54.:19:57.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:58.:20:05.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:06.:20:10.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:11.:20:17.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:18.:20:20.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:21.:20:24.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:25.:20:30.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:31.:20:33.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:34.:20:37.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:38.:20:41.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:42.:20:47.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:48.:20:52.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:53.:20:56.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:57.:21:01.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:21:02.:21:06.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:07.:21:10.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:11.:21:15.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:16.:21:18.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:19.:21:23.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:24.:21:27.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:28.:21:31.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:32.:21:37.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:38.:21:42.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:43.:21:45.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:46.:21:53.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:54.:21:57.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:58.:22:02.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:22:03.:22:05.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:06.:22:10.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:11.:22:13.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:14.:22:20.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:21.:22:23.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:24.:22:28.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:29.:22:31.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:32.:22:37.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:38.:22:40.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:41.:22:46.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:47.:22:51.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:52.:22:54.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:55.:23:00.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:23:01.:23:04.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:05.:23:10.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:11.:23:14.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:15.:23:19.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:20.:23:23.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:24.:23:27.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:28.:23:31.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:32.:23:36.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:37.:23:40.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:41.:23:44.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:45.:23:49.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:50.:23:53.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:54.:23:59.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:24:00.:24:02.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:03.:24:07.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:08.:24:12.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:13.:24:16.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:17.:24:19.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:20.:24:24.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:25.:24:29.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:30.:24:34.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:35.:24:39.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:40.:24:43.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:44.:24:49.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:50.:24:58.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:59.:25:02.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:03.:25:06.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:07.:25:12.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:13.:25:18.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:19.:25:22.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:23.:25:24.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:25.:25:26.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:27.:25:28.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:29.:25:30.

be talking to our political panel. Welcome to Sunday Politics East,

:25:31.:25:44.

I'm Stewart White. Later in the programme -

:25:45.:25:46.

green fields to become garden towns With us this week -

:25:47.:25:49.

Essex MP James Cleverly, for the Conservatives,

:25:50.:25:55.

and Andy Sawford, the former But let's start with that High Court

:25:56.:25:57.

ruling this week about Brexit. The Article 50 bill has been

:25:58.:26:05.

introduced to Parliament and in due Labour says their MPs

:26:06.:26:08.

should back the bill, The Shadow Business Secretary,

:26:09.:26:19.

Norwich South MP has said he will not vote

:26:20.:26:22.

against the triggering of Article 50 next week but has not ruled out

:26:23.:26:25.

voting against the final deal I think that most of the people

:26:26.:26:28.

who voted for me know that I have my views

:26:29.:26:33.

on the European Union, and on the relationship

:26:34.:26:35.

that we should now have with the single market,

:26:36.:26:37.

and with other areas of Europe. That is what I will be doing

:26:38.:26:39.

in the coming weeks, as will other MPs,

:26:40.:26:42.

and that is what the Supreme Court decision was about, giving

:26:43.:26:45.

Parliament a say on that. I'm going to do that and do it

:26:46.:26:47.

with the interests of Norwich When it comes to the final vote

:26:48.:26:50.

on whether we trigger Article 50 and what it looks like,

:26:51.:26:55.

I will make my decision based Of our other Labour MPs,

:26:56.:26:57.

Daniel Zeichner from Cambridge says Gavin Shuker from Luton South says

:26:58.:27:02.

that he will abstain, but the Luton North MP

:27:03.:27:10.

Kelvin Hopkins will vote for it, it's something

:27:11.:27:12.

that he's always wanted. Andy, if you were still an MP, what

:27:13.:27:23.

would you have done? To trigger Article 50. The majority of people

:27:24.:27:28.

in Corby voted to leave the EU. I would have done so with a heavy

:27:29.:27:32.

heart because I think we should stay in the EU and try to reform it but

:27:33.:27:35.

when you have a referendum you should respect the outcome. This

:27:36.:27:40.

argument that if you are a local party, a local constituency that

:27:41.:27:44.

voted against Brexit, that you have a mandate therefore to vote against

:27:45.:27:50.

it, do you approve? I think that referendums are quite unique for MPs

:27:51.:27:55.

to deal with. I voted on a number of contentious issues where I had

:27:56.:27:58.

constituents expressing strong views and an example would be marriage

:27:59.:28:04.

equality or bombing in Syria, but it is difficult to know where the

:28:05.:28:08.

balance of opinion lies in your constituency. You need to listen and

:28:09.:28:12.

make a judgment. In the referendum it is different. The public would

:28:13.:28:16.

feel cheated in the democracy if he did not worry on with that. There

:28:17.:28:22.

would be some Tory MPs who would have a similar debate? For the

:28:23.:28:26.

Conservative Party, we are in an easy position, because it was the

:28:27.:28:31.

Conservative manifesto that said we would have a referendum and that we

:28:32.:28:36.

would abide by the decision of that referendum. And so, for the

:28:37.:28:42.

Conservative MPs, even those who campaigned to remain members of the

:28:43.:28:46.

EU, they are abiding by their manifesto commitment to abide by the

:28:47.:28:51.

referendum results. For us, it is a lot easier and... Does that mean you

:28:52.:28:57.

don't expect anyone to be absent? That is not quite what I said! The

:28:58.:29:02.

vast majority, I think, in the recent, or just before Christmas,

:29:03.:29:08.

there was a motion which Labour put forward, the government amended, and

:29:09.:29:11.

one of the lines in it was that Article 50 would be triggered by the

:29:12.:29:17.

31st of March, 2017. And it was carried by 455 votes against 75. So

:29:18.:29:26.

50 process will be started by the 50 process will be started by the

:29:27.:29:32.

31st of March, after a vote in the House of Commons. OK, let's move on.

:29:33.:29:36.

Of course, both of you are from areas where the government says it

:29:37.:29:40.

It is the latest scheme to try to address the chronic

:29:41.:29:43.

Ten years ago, 26,000 houses were built in the east,

:29:44.:29:47.

but the figure fell dramatically during the financial crisis.

:29:48.:29:49.

In 2014, 17,000 new homes were built.

:29:50.:29:51.

That went up to 21,500 last year, but is still well below the 30,000

:29:52.:29:54.

The new proposal is for three new developments in this region,

:29:55.:30:04.

with 10,000 new homes near Harlow, and smaller garden villages

:30:05.:30:06.

near Brentwood and at Deenethorpe near Corby.

:30:07.:30:08.

Of course, the most successful new town is Milton Keynes,

:30:09.:30:10.

which celebrated its 50th anniversary this week.

:30:11.:30:12.

One of the answers to London's housing crisis of the late 1960s

:30:13.:30:29.

Now it has a population of more than a quarter of a million.

:30:30.:30:34.

The proposed new developments nearby are on a much smaller scale

:30:35.:30:36.

When it comes to housing, here are the home truths.

:30:37.:30:40.

By far of the biggest developments proposed

:30:41.:30:49.

for our region is at Gilston Park, just outside of Harlow,

:30:50.:30:52.

where they are planning 10,000 new homes made out

:30:53.:30:54.

All of them self-contained, with their own shops and schools.

:30:55.:31:01.

The thing is, it will be on green belt.

:31:02.:31:05.

For some, that is crossing a red line.

:31:06.:31:23.

It's grade 2 arable land, amongst the best lands in Hertfordshire.

:31:24.:31:26.

For Spike Hughes, the new garden town would be over his garden fence.

:31:27.:31:29.

Plans to build here were batted away ten years ago because of questions

:31:30.:31:33.

over sewage, but he says they are back like a bad smell.

:31:34.:31:36.

There are a number of reasons why we should build up.

:31:37.:31:41.

First of all, because we can and we couldn't in the 1930s.

:31:42.:31:44.

The second thing is, if you put the population

:31:45.:31:46.

where the infrastructure already exists, in other words,

:31:47.:31:48.

you build in the vicinity of the stations and the shops

:31:49.:31:54.

and everything else, you don't get the

:31:55.:31:56.

Imagine having 25,000 people in these fields,

:31:57.:31:58.

getting up in the morning, and migrating out to find

:31:59.:32:01.

employment, then coming back in the evening.

:32:02.:32:03.

We are walking towards what will be one of the first villages

:32:04.:32:07.

Harlow is set to grow 20% in the next 15 years, so people

:32:08.:32:11.

The leader of East Herts Council took me to an old quarry

:32:12.:32:15.

at the edge of Gilson Park, to point out it isn't

:32:16.:32:18.

all luscious fertile green belt, but she does concede that green belt

:32:19.:32:21.

Within East Herts, we know that in the next 20-30 years we have

:32:22.:32:29.

The only way to do that, within the government planning

:32:30.:32:33.

guidance, is for it to be put into areas where you already

:32:34.:32:35.

And sadly, some of it has to go on to green belt.

:32:36.:32:48.

A two-hour drive from Gilston is the Deene Park Estates

:32:49.:32:50.

near Corby, owned by the Brudenell family for 500 years.

:32:51.:32:53.

The former Deenethorpe Airfield is part of the estate,

:32:54.:32:55.

and that is where they are planning a garden village.

:32:56.:33:01.

In the Second World War, this was home to the 401st bombing

:33:02.:33:10.

of the United States Air Force, the flying fortresses

:33:11.:33:15.

Now, it will become home to a new village of 1500 houses,

:33:16.:33:20.

Nearby Corby Borough Council is concerned the new development

:33:21.:33:26.

will put pressure on its services, but Mark Coombs, the estate manager

:33:27.:33:28.

There will be infrastructure put in, such as a school and so on.

:33:29.:33:36.

It is not designed to be a dormant village.

:33:37.:33:38.

It is designed to live and breathe within its own context.

:33:39.:33:41.

Of course there will be cross boundary interface, if you like,

:33:42.:33:43.

of course people will be using facilities within

:33:44.:33:45.

the locality, but equally, people with the locality can use

:33:46.:33:48.

This is no done deal, there is plenty of talking to be

:33:49.:33:54.

done before the lands are cleared for take-off and the hard hats

:33:55.:33:57.

move in, and some hard questions to answer too.

:33:58.:34:08.

They are hard questions, but actually, are you in favour of

:34:09.:34:14.

building on green belt land? I think that the proposals that were put

:34:15.:34:17.

forward for these new garden villages and garden towns are a

:34:18.:34:21.

really good balance, protecting rural Britain as much as possible

:34:22.:34:25.

but recognising there are areas of the country, in the East of England

:34:26.:34:29.

in particular, where there is a massive surplus of demand for new

:34:30.:34:34.

homes. If you want to address that, you can either shoehorn extra homes

:34:35.:34:39.

on the edges of villages and towns, and put additional pressure on the

:34:40.:34:48.

infrastructure already there, or be bold and build new developments, and

:34:49.:34:50.

preload both of the physical infrastructure, the roads and things

:34:51.:34:52.

like that, but also soft infrastructure, like schools and

:34:53.:34:59.

surgeries. Corby is the fastest growing town in the country, and a

:35:00.:35:04.

lot of it is on Brownfield land, like the former steelworks. This is

:35:05.:35:09.

an airfield. This is a great idea. I would say to James and his party,

:35:10.:35:13.

get on with it. They have announced other initiatives in the past. But

:35:14.:35:19.

both parties do that, don't they? They announce things... The

:35:20.:35:22.

responsibility to move forward lies with the party in government right

:35:23.:35:26.

now, if you are a young person watching this programme in the

:35:27.:35:29.

region who cannot see a time where they can afford a home, you are

:35:30.:35:33.

looking to the party in power to get on with it. Isn't there a danger

:35:34.:35:38.

that you will have urban sprawl if we keep building houses, which will

:35:39.:35:47.

take us all the way from the A12 almost to the M1? Good design is

:35:48.:35:50.

essential, if you have a perspective where they should not be more

:35:51.:35:54.

housing in the region, you will let down all of those people... That is

:35:55.:35:58.

what some people would want? It is unfortunate and I would say to those

:35:59.:36:02.

people you may have children or grandchildren yourself, think about

:36:03.:36:05.

how they will be able to live in their own communities. We don't want

:36:06.:36:09.

people to think that they cannot live in our region, we need to

:36:10.:36:12.

develop sensibly and there are great examples that this region is home to

:36:13.:36:19.

some of the original garden cities, and new towns, like Harlow, Corby

:36:20.:36:23.

and Milton Keynes. If you do it well, and I hope this covenant gets

:36:24.:36:30.

on it -- hopes the government can get on it. And Braintree is a

:36:31.:36:39.

fantastic example, we have a garden village just outside, and it is

:36:40.:36:44.

love. The architecture is great and the community is cohesive. It

:36:45.:36:47.

functions very well as a community so I do think that there are

:36:48.:36:53.

opportunities. I take Andy's criticisms on board, but we've been

:36:54.:36:57.

through a prolonged period of economic downturn, and the

:36:58.:37:02.

government has set aside ?2.3 billion to kick-start developments.

:37:03.:37:06.

I do think that when you say that people are uncomfortable with some

:37:07.:37:11.

of these developments... They think we need it, but they do not want it

:37:12.:37:16.

near them. I hear them say that, and often I hear them say that their

:37:17.:37:19.

children or grandchildren have to move to London or Cambridge to get

:37:20.:37:24.

jobs. If we can keep those young families, the people who will be

:37:25.:37:27.

employing other people locally, in the region, that is good news for

:37:28.:37:33.

the area. Do you agree on this? You can build public support if you do

:37:34.:37:36.

it in the right places, there are examples in the region. With garden

:37:37.:37:40.

cities and garden villages committee can get the local communities on

:37:41.:37:43.

board. Now our round up of the political

:37:44.:37:45.

week, in Sixty Seconds, Chelmsford Prison in the news

:37:46.:37:48.

after a prisoner there killed himself was raised in the house this

:37:49.:37:53.

week by the city's MP. He called on the Justice

:37:54.:37:57.

Secretary to come and see And I will say I'm keen to visit

:37:58.:37:59.

Chelmsford myself to come and meet the honourable gentleman

:38:00.:38:05.

there and see the situation The Science Minister came to Norwich

:38:06.:38:07.

to unveil the government's new industrial strategy,

:38:08.:38:16.

which could see millions of pounds worth of investment coming

:38:17.:38:18.

to our science parks. We've always said we would put

:38:19.:38:20.

science and innovation at the heart of the industrial strategy

:38:21.:38:23.

and today, with the publication of this important green paper,

:38:24.:38:25.

you can see we've done just that. Plans to widen the A12

:38:26.:38:30.

in Sussex have been unveiled The scheme would increase the road

:38:31.:38:32.

to three lanes each way And visiting sixth formers

:38:33.:38:40.

in Cambridge this week to talk about the importance of voting,

:38:41.:38:47.

the constitution minister heard one student hit out at the portrayal

:38:48.:38:49.

of young people in the media. With millennials in the media,

:38:50.:38:54.

they talk about how they are almost lazy and unwilling to do stuff,

:38:55.:38:59.

and that has a huge impact on why young people,

:39:00.:39:02.

especially 18-24-year-olds, We have an industrial strategy, what

:39:03.:39:19.

do you make of it? It is window dressing from the government, they

:39:20.:39:24.

have a massive problem. Huge cuts to university funding will affect the

:39:25.:39:28.

region, they talk about more research funding, no idea as to

:39:29.:39:32.

where it will come from. Significant issues with trade coming out of us

:39:33.:39:36.

leaving the EU and industrial strategy has a lot of warm words.

:39:37.:39:40.

And the green paper is nowhere near being put into practice. It means

:39:41.:39:48.

very little. Tell him he is wrong! He would say that... We are an

:39:49.:39:57.

incredibly exciting point in our history. Brexit means that we have

:39:58.:40:02.

to look at other markets, and be more competitive. I think the

:40:03.:40:09.

investment in training and skills is... You are unsure about it

:40:10.:40:13.

either? It is absolutely the right direction of travel. And where is

:40:14.:40:18.

the industry in it? The big difference is that we will try and

:40:19.:40:23.

pick and choose, that is where industrial strategy is as the four

:40:24.:40:26.

night. That is one of the most vacuous documents I've seen in a

:40:27.:40:30.

long time! Thank you to both of you for being

:40:31.:40:32.

with us this week. air-pollution. Thank you for being

:40:33.:40:34.

here. Welcome back and let's get back

:40:35.:40:40.

to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven

:40:41.:40:44.

mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,

:40:45.:40:50.

Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK

:40:51.:40:53.

should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong

:40:54.:41:06.

for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be

:41:07.:41:11.

challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should

:41:12.:41:15.

come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.

:41:16.:41:19.

Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long

:41:20.:41:24.

term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going

:41:25.:41:29.

to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be

:41:30.:41:35.

anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe

:41:36.:41:39.

territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until

:41:40.:41:43.

summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people

:41:44.:41:48.

coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees

:41:49.:41:52.

from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on

:41:53.:41:56.

Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in

:41:57.:42:02.

mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world

:42:03.:42:06.

that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when

:42:07.:42:09.

it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the

:42:10.:42:15.

civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500

:42:16.:42:20.

Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a

:42:21.:42:29.

hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,

:42:30.:42:32.

although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is

:42:33.:42:38.

discovering that being a president is different from being a business

:42:39.:42:42.

man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a

:42:43.:42:45.

backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss

:42:46.:42:51.

with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,

:42:52.:42:55.

and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial

:42:56.:42:59.

ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any

:43:00.:43:04.

opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the

:43:05.:43:09.

streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an

:43:10.:43:14.

international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit

:43:15.:43:18.

are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have

:43:19.:43:21.

suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you

:43:22.:43:25.

have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal

:43:26.:43:30.

Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who

:43:31.:43:36.

would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one

:43:37.:43:43.

subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in

:43:44.:43:47.

front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.

:43:48.:43:51.

Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played

:43:52.:43:54.

host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we

:43:55.:43:58.

have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how

:43:59.:44:04.

serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often

:44:05.:44:08.

are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still

:44:09.:44:15.

won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place

:44:16.:44:18.

in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the

:44:19.:44:22.

opposite the next day. Brown did the same.

:44:23.:44:28.

Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide

:44:29.:44:37.

because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on

:44:38.:44:40.

the major government, even though their position on the single

:44:41.:44:45.

currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of

:44:46.:44:50.

leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to

:44:51.:44:54.

dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over

:44:55.:44:58.

Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,

:44:59.:45:02.

but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in

:45:03.:45:07.

danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political

:45:08.:45:13.

conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we

:45:14.:45:16.

are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that

:45:17.:45:21.

vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would

:45:22.:45:25.

have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece

:45:26.:45:29.

of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial

:45:30.:45:36.

world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to

:45:37.:45:40.

worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the

:45:41.:45:44.

legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a

:45:45.:45:48.

big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year

:45:49.:45:54.

is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely

:45:55.:45:57.

hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an

:45:58.:46:02.

incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you

:46:03.:46:06.

politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've

:46:07.:46:10.

already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You

:46:11.:46:15.

have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to

:46:16.:46:20.

stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,

:46:21.:46:25.

and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we

:46:26.:46:29.

have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if

:46:30.:46:33.

it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will

:46:34.:46:36.

be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said

:46:37.:46:41.

regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU

:46:42.:46:47.

citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get

:46:48.:46:53.

through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all

:46:54.:46:59.

know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it

:47:00.:47:04.

won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with

:47:05.:47:08.

those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but

:47:09.:47:12.

the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's

:47:13.:47:17.

already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU

:47:18.:47:21.

governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit

:47:22.:47:26.

for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it

:47:27.:47:29.

through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey

:47:30.:47:34.

through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has

:47:35.:47:38.

been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there

:47:39.:47:44.

will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of

:47:45.:47:50.

the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and

:47:51.:47:56.

see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means

:47:57.:48:00.

unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s

:48:01.:48:05.

when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony

:48:06.:48:13.

Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in

:48:14.:48:19.

or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.

:48:20.:48:25.

But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this

:48:26.:48:27.

week. The Daily Politics is back

:48:28.:48:29.

tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here

:48:30.:48:33.

on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:48:34.:48:36.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:48:37.:48:42.

Andrew Neil and Stewart White are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.