05/02/2017 Sunday Politics East

It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May pledged to help people who are "just about managing",

and this week her government will announce new measures to boost

the number of affordable homes and improve conditions for renters.

After a US court suspends Donald Trump's travel ban and rules

it could be unconstitutional, one of the President's inner circle

tells me there is no "chaos", and that Donald Trump's White House

is making good on his campaign promises.

As the Government gets into gear for two years

of Brexit negotiations, we report on the haggling to come

over the UK's Brexit bill for leaving the European Union -

and the costs and savings once we've left.

And with me, as always, a trio of top political

journalists - Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme,

So, more anguish to come this week for the Labour party as the House

of Commons continues to debate the bill which paves the way

Last week, Labour split over the Article 50 bill,

with a fifth of Labour MPs defying Jeremy Corbyn to vote against.

Five shadow ministers resigned, and it's expected Mr Corbyn

will have to sack more frontbenchers once the bill is voted

Add to that the fact that the Labour Leader's close ally

Diane Abbot failed to turn up for the initial vote -

blaming illness - and things don't look too rosy

The Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry was asked

about the situation earlier on the Andrew Marr show.

The Labour Party is a national party and we represent the nation,

and the nation is divided on this, and it is very difficult.

Many MPs representing majority Remain constituencies have this very

difficult balancing act between - do I represent my constituency,

Labour, as a national party, have a clear view.

We fought to stay in Europe, but the public have spoken,

But the important thing now is not to give Theresa May a blank check,

we have to make sure we get the right deal for the country.

That was Emily Thornberry. Helen, is this like a form of Chinese water

torture for the Labour Party? And for journalists, to! We are in a

situation where no one really thinks it's working. A lot of authority has

drained away from Jeremy Corbyn but no one can do anything about it.

What we saw from the leadership contest is on the idea of a Blairite

plot to get rid of him. You are essentially stuck in stasis. The

only person that can remove Jeremy Corbyn is God or Jeremy Corbyn.

Authority may have moved from Mr Corbyn but it's not going anywhere

else, there's not an alternative centre of authority? Not quite, but

Clive Lewis is name emerging, the Shadow Business Secretary. A lot of

the Labour left, people like Paul Mason, really like him and would

like to see him in Corbyn. I think that's why Jeremy Corbyn do

something extraordinary next week and abstain from Article 50, the

main bill itself, to keep his Shadow Cabinet together. That clip on

Andrew Marr, point blank refusing to say if Labour will vote for Article

50. The only way Jeremy Corbyn can hold this mess together now is to

abstain, which would be catastrophic across Brexit constituencies in the

North. The problem with abstention is everyone will say on the issue of

our time, the official opposition hasn't got coherent or considered

policy? I love the way Emily Thornberry said the country is

divided and we represent the country, in other words we are

divided at the party as well. The other thing that was a crucial

moment this week is the debate over whether there should be a so-called

meaningful vote by MPs on the deal that Theresa May gets. That is a

point of real danger for Brexit supporters. It may well be there is

a coalition of Labour and SNP and Remain MPs, Tory MPs, who vote for

that so-called meaningful vote that could undermine Theresa May's

negotiation. So Theresa May could have had troubles as well, not plain

sailing for her? There is no point, apart from lonely Ken Clarke voting

against Article 50, no point in Tory remainders rebelling. It would have

been a token gesture with no support. But there might be

meaningful amendments. One might be on the status of EU nationals... The

government could lose that. There might be a majority for some of

those amendments. The ins and outs of the Labour Party, it fascinates

the Labour Party and journalists. I suspect the country has just moved

on and doesn't care. You are probably quite right. To be honest I

struggled to get Labour split stories in my paper any more, the

bar is so high to make it news. Where it does matter is now not

everyone will pay huge amounts to the -- of attention to the vote on

Wednesday. But come the general election in 2020, maybe a little

earlier, every Tory leaflet and every labour constituency will say

this guy, this goal, they refuse to vote for Brexit, do you want them in

power? That is going to be really hard for them. The story next week

may be Tory splits rather than just Labour ones, we will see.

Theresa May has made a big deal out of her commitment to help people

on middle incomes who are "just about managing", and early this week

we should get a good sense of what that means in practice -

when plans to bring down the cost of housing and protect renters

are published in the Government's new white paper.

Theresa May has promised she'll kick off Brexit negotiations with the EU

by the end of March, and after months of shadow-boxing

Ellie Price reports on the battle to come over the UK's Brexit bill,

and the likely costs and savings once we've left.

It was the figure that defined the EU referendum campaign.

It was also a figure that was fiercely disputed, but the promise -

vote leave and Britain won't have to pay into the EU are any more.

So, is that what's going to happen now?

The trouble with buses is you tend to have to wait for them

and when Theresa May triggers Article 50, the clock starts

She needs something quicker, something more sporty.

According to the most recent Treasury figures,

Britain's gross contribution to the EU, after the rebate

is taken into account, is about ?14 billion a year.

There are some complicating factors that means it can go up

or down year on year, but that's roughly how much the UK

will no longer sending to Brussels post-Brexit.

But, there are other payments that Britain will have to shell out for.

First and foremost, the so-called divorce settlement.

It is being said, and openly by Commissioner Barnier

and others in the Commission, that the total financial liability

as they see it might be in the order of 40-60 billion

The BBC understands the figure EU negotiators are likely

to settle on is far lower, around 34 billion euros,

but what does the money they are going to argue

Well, that's how much Britain owes for stuff in the EU budget that's

already signed up for until 2020, one year after we are

Historically, Britain pays 12% in contributions,

so the cost to the UK is likely to be between ten

Then they will look at the 200-250 billion euros of underfunded

spending commitments, the so-called RAL.

Britain could also be liable for around 5-7 billion euros

for its share in the pensions bill for EU staff, that's again

12% of an overall bill of 50-60 billion.

Finally there's a share of our assets held by the EU.

They include things like this building, the European Commission

Britain could argue it deserves a share back of around 18 billion

euros from a portfolio that's said to be worth 153 billion euros.

So, lots for the two sides to discuss in two years of talks.

They have a great opportunity with the Article 50 talks

because actually they can hold us to ransom.

They can say, "You figure out money, we will talk about your trade.

But until you've figured out the money, we won't," so I think

a lot of European states think they are in a very strong

negotiating position at the moment and they intend to make

The principle is clear, the days of Britain making vast

contributions to the European Union every year will end.

Theresa May has already indicated that she would want to sign back up

to a number of EU agencies on a program-by-program basis.

The Europol for example, that's the European crime

agency, or Erasmus Plus, which wants student exchanges.

If everything stays the same as it is now, it would cost the UK

675 million euros a year, based on analysis by

But there are likely to be agencies we don't choose to participate in.

If we only opted back to those dealing with security,

trade, universities and, say, climate change,

it could come with a price tag of 370 million euros per year.

Of course that's if our European neighbours allow us.

I wonder if they're going to let me in!

There will also be a cost to creating a new system to resolve

trade disputes with other nations once we are no longer part

Take the EFTA Court which rules on disputes

between the EU and Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein.

That costs 4 million euros to run each year,

though in the Brexit White Paper published this week,

the Government said it will not be constrained by precedent

Finally, would the EU get behind the idea of Britain making some

contribution for some preferential access to its market?

The sort of thing that Theresa May seems to be hinting

at are sectoral arrangements, some kind of partial membership

Switzerland, which has a far less wide-ranging deal than Norway,

pays about 320 million a year for what it gets into the EU budget,

but it's not exactly the Swiss deal that we're after.

The EU institutions hate the Swiss deal because it is codified

in a huge number of treaties that are messy, complicated

and cumbersome, and they really don't want to replicate

Theresa May has been at pains to insist she's in the driving seat

when it comes to these negotiations, and that she's

But with so much money up for discussion, it may not be such

Sadly she didn't get to keep the car!

And I've been joined to discuss the Brexit balance sheet

by the director of the Centre for European Reform, Charles Grant,

and by Henry Newman who runs the think tank Open Europe.

Henry Newman, these figures that are being thrown about in Brussels at

the moment, and exit bill of 40-60,000,000,000. What do you make

of them? I think it is an opening gambit from the institutions and we

should take them seriously. We listened to Mr Rogers, the former

ambassador to Brussels in the House of Commons last week, speaking about

the sort of positions the EU is likely to take in the negotiation. I

personally think the Prime Minister should be more concerned about

getting the right sort of trade arrangements, subsequent to our

departure, than worrying about the exact detail of the divorce

settlement and the Bill. They might not let them go on to trade until

they resolve this matter. Where does the Brexit bill, the cost of exit,

if there is to be one, in terms of a sum of money, where does that come

in the negotiations, upfront or at the end? The European Commission has

a firm line on this. You have to talk about the Brexit bill and the

divorce settlement before you talk about the future relationship.

Therefore they are saying if you don't sign up for 60 billion or

thereabouts, we won't talk about the future. Other member states take a

softer line than that and think you probably have to talk about the

divorce settlement and Brexit bill as the same -- at the same time as

the economic situation. If you can do both at the same time, the

atmosphere may be better natured. You have spoken to people in

Brussels and are part of a think tank, how Revista gives the figure

or is it an opening gambit? Most member states and EU institutions

believe they think it is the true figure but when the negotiations

start adding the number will come down. As long as the British are

prepared to sign up to the principle of we owe you a bit of money, as the

cheque, then people will compromise. What is the ballpark? You had a

figure of 34 billion, that is news to me, nobody knows because

negotiations haven't started but I think something lower than 60. Even

60 would be politically toxic for a British government? I think Theresa

May is in a strong position, she has united the Conservative Party. You

could expect coming into this year all the Conservative divisions would

be laid bare by Gina Miller. But she is leading a united party. Labour

Party are divided... Coogee get away with paying 30 billion? We should

give her the benefit of the doubt going into these negotiations, let

her keep her cards close to her chest. The speech he gave a few

weeks ago at Lancaster House, our judgment was she laid out as much

detail as we could have expected at that point. I don't think it's

helpful for us now to say, we shouldn't be introducing further red

line. I want you to be helpful and find things out. I would suggest if

there is a bill, let's say it's 30 billion, let's make it half of what

the current claims coming out of Brussels. And of course it won't

have to be paid in one year, I assume it's not one cheque but

spread over. But we will wait a long time for that 350 million a week or

what ever it was that was meant to come from Brussels to spend on the

NHS. That's not going to happen for the next five, six or seven years.

Everyone has been clear there will be a phased exit programme. The

question of whether something is political possible for her in terms

of the divorce settlement will depend on what she gets from the

European Union in those negotiations. If she ends up

settling for a bill of about 30 billion which I think would be

politically... No matter how popular she is, politically very difficult

for her, it does kill any idea there is a Brexit dividend for Britain.

Some of the senior officials in London and Brussels are worried this

issue could crash the talks because it may be possible for Theresa May

to accept a Brexit bill of 30 billion and if there is no deal and

will leave EU without a settlement, there is massive legal uncertainty.

What contract law applies? Can our planes take off from Heathrow?

Nobody knows what legal rights there are for an EU citizen living here

and vice versa. If there is no deal at the end of two years, it is quite

bad for the European economy, therefore they think they have all

the cards to play and they think if it is mishandled domestically in

Britain than we have a crash. But there will be competing interests in

Europe, the Baltic states, Eastern Europe, maybe quite similar of the

Nordic states, that in turn different from the French, Germans

or Italians. How will Europe come to a common view on these things? At

the moment they are quite united backing a strong line, except for

the polls and Hungarians who are the bad boys of Europe and the Irish who

will do anything to keep us happy. We should remember their priority is

not economics, they are not thinking how can they maximise trade with the

UK, they are under threat. The combination of Trump and Brexit

scares them. They want to keep the institutions strong. They also want

to keep Britain. That is the one strong card we have, contributing to

security. We know we won't be members of the single market, that

was in the White Paper. The situation of the customs union is

more complicated I would suggest. Does that have cost? If we can be a

little bit pregnant in the customs union, does that come with a price

ticket? We have got some clarity on the customs union, the Prime

Minister said we would not be part of the... We would be able to do our

own trade deals outside the EU customs union, and also not be part

of the common external tariff. She said she is willing to look at other

options and we don't know what that will be so as a think tank we are

looking at this over the next few weeks and coming up with

recommendations for the Government and looking at how existing

boundaries between the EU customs union and other states work in

practice. For example between Switzerland and the EU border,

Norway and Switzerland, and the UK and Canada. We will want is a

country the freedom to do our own free trade deals, that seems to be

quite high up there, and to change our external tariffs to the rest of

the world. If that's the case, we do seem to be wanting our cake and

eating it in the customs union. Talking to some people in London, it

is quite clear we are leaving the essentials of the customs union, the

tariff, so even if we can minimise controls at the border by having

mutual recognition agreements, so we recognise each other's standards,

but there will still have to be checks for things like rules of

origin and tariffs if tariffs apply, which is a problem for the Irish

because nobody has worked out how you can avoid having some sort of

customs control on the border between Northern Ireland and the

South once we are out of the customs union. I think it's important we

don't look at this too much as one side has to win and one side has to

lose scenario. We can find ways. My Broadview is what we get out of the

negotiation will depend on politics more than economic reality. Economic

reality is strong, there's a good case for a trade deal on the

solution on the customs deal, but Britain will need to come up with a

positive case for our relationship and keep making that case. If it

turns out the Government thinks the bill is too high, that we can't

really get the free trade deal done in time and it's left hanging in the

wind, what are the chances, how I as things stand now that we end up

crashing out? I'd say there's a 30% chance that we don't get the free

trade agreement at the end of it that Mrs May is aiming for. The very

hard crash is you don't even do an Article 50 divorce settlement from

you go straight to World Trade Organisation rules. The less hard

crash is doing the divorce settlement and transitional

arrangements would require European Court of Justice arrangements. We

will leave it there. Thank you, both.

Donald Trump's flagship policy of extreme vetting of immigrants

and a temporary travel ban for citizens of seven mainly-muslim

countries was stopped in its tracks this weekend.

On Friday a judge ruled the ban should be lifted and that it

That prompted President Trump to fire off a series of tweets

criticising what he says was a terrible decision

by a so-called judge, as he ordered the State Department

Now the federal appeals court has rejected his request to reinstate

the ban until it hears the case in full.

Well yesterday I spoke to Sebastian Gorka, Deputy Assistant

I asked him if the confusion over the travel ban

was a sign that the President's two-week-old administration

There is no chaos, you really shouldn't believe the spin, the

facts speak for themselves. 109 people on Saturday were mildly

inconvenienced by having their entry into the United States delayed out

of 325,000. So let's not get carried away with the left-wing media bias

and spin. Hold on, 60,000 - 90,000 people with visas, their visas are

no longer valid. That's another issue. You need to listen to what

I'm saying. The people who entered on the day of the executive order

being implemented worth 109 people out of 325. Whether people won't

travelling to America were affected is another matter, so there is no

chaos to comment on. Following Iran's latest missile tests,

National Security adviser Flint said the US was "Putting Iran on notice",

what does that mean? It means we have a new president and we are not

going to facilitate the rise of one of the most dangerous nations in the

world. We are jettisoning this naive and dangerous policy of the Obama

Administration to try and make the Shi'ite dictatorial democracy some

kind of counter balance to extremist Sunni groups in the region and that

they cannot continue to behave in the way they have behaved for the

last 30 years. It is a very simple message. So are there any

multilateral alliances that Mr Trump would like to strengthen?

Absolutely. If we are looking at the region, if you listen to what

President Trump has said and specifically to also the speeches of

general Flint, his national security adviser, we are incredibly vested in

seeing our Sunni allies in the region come together in a real

coalition. The so-called vaunted 66 nation coalition that was created

under the Obama administration... There was no coalition. But we want

to help our Sunni allies, especially the Egyptians, the Jordanians, come

together in a real partnership to take the fight to ISIS and groups

like Al-Qaeda. But there is not a formal multilateral alliance with

these countries. Which of the existing, formal multilateral

alliances does Mr Trump wants to strengthen? If you are specifically

talking about Nato, it is clear that we are committed to Nato but we wish

to see a more equitable burden sharing among the nations that are

simply not spending enough on their own defence so the gentleman 's

agreement of 2% of GDP has to be stuck to, unlike the, I think it's

only Six Nations that reach the standard today out of almost 30. So

he does want to strengthen Nato then? Absolutely, he believes Nato

is the most successful military alliances. You mustn't believe the

spin and hype. EU leaders now see the Trump administration as a threat

up there with Russia, China, terrorism. What's your response to

that? I have to laugh. The idea that the nation that came to the

salvation of Europe twice in the 20th century hummer in World War I

and World War II, was central to the defeat of the totalitarian... It is

not even worth commenting on. Would it matter to the Trump

administration if the European Union broke up? The United States is very

interested in the best relations possible with all the nations of the

EU am a whether the European union wishes to stay together or not is up

to the nations of the European Union. I understand that but I was

wondering what the US view would be. Until Mr Trump, EU foreign policy

was quite consistent in wanting to see the EU survive, prosper and even

become more integrated. Now that doesn't seem to be the case, so

would it matter to the Trump administration if the EU broke up? I

will say yet again, it is in the interests of the United States to

have the best relations possible with our European allies, and

whether that is in the formation of the EU or if the EU by itself

suffers some kind of internal issues, that's up to the European

nations and not something we will comment on. Listening to that

answer, it would seem as if this particular president's preference is

to deal with individual nation states rather than multilateral

institutions. Is that fair? I don't think so. There's never been an

unequivocal statement by that effect by the statement. Does he share the

opinion of Stephen Bannon that the 21st century should see a return to

nation states rather than growing existing multilateral ways? I think

it is fair to say that we have problems with political elites that

don't take the interests of the populations they represent into

account. That's why Brexit happened. I think that's why Mr Trump became

President Trump. This is the connected phenomena. You are

obsessing about institutions, it is not about institutions, it's about

the health of democracy and whether political elites do what is in the

interests of the people they represent. Given the

unpredictability of the new president, you never really know

what he's going to do next, would it be wise for the British Prime

Minister to hitch her wagon to his star? This is really churlish

questioning. Come on, you don't know what he's going to do next, listen

to what he says because he does what he's going to say. I know this may

be shocking to some reporters, but look at his campaign promises, and

the fact that in the last 15 days we have executed every single one that

we could in the time permissible so there is nothing unpredictable about

Donald Trump as president. OK then, if we do know what he's going to do

next, what is he going to do next? Continue to make good on his

election promises, to make America great again, to make the economy are

flourishing economy, and most important of all from your

perspective in the UK, to be the best friend possible to our friends

and the worst enemy to our enemies. It is an old Marine Corps phrase and

we tend to live by it. Thank you for your time, we will leave it there.

Doctor Gorka, making it clear this administration won't spend political

capital on trying to keep the European Union together, a watershed

change in American foreign policy. Theresa May has made a big deal out

of her commitment to help people on middle incomes who are "just

about managing", and early this week we should get a good sense

of what that means in practice - when plans to bring down the cost

of housing and protect renters are published in the Government's

new white paper. The paper is expected to introduce

new rules on building Communities Secretary Sajid Javid

has previously said politicians should not stand in the way

of development, provided all options Also rumoured are new measures

to speed up building the 1 million new homes the Government promised

to build by 2020, including imposing five-year quotas

on reluctant councils. Reports suggest there will be

relaxation of building height restrictions,

allowing home owners and developers to build to the height

of the tallest building on the block without needing to seek

planning permission. Other elements trialled include

new measures to stop developers sitting on parcels of land

without building homes, land banking, and moving railway

station car parks Underground, The Government today said it

will amend planning rules so more homes can be built specifically

to be rented out through longer term tenancies, to provide more stability

for young families, alongside its proposed ban

on letting agent fees. And the Housing Minister,

Gavin Barwell, joins me now. Welcome to the programme. Home

ownership is now beyond the reach of most young people. You are now

emphasising affordable homes for rent. Why have you given up on the

Tory dream of a property owning democracy? We haven't given up on

that. The decline on home ownership in this country started in 2004. So

far we have stopped that decline, we haven't reversed it but we

absolutely want to make sure that people who want to own and can do

so. The Prime Minister was very clear a country that works for

everyone. That means we have to have say something to say to those who

want to rent as well as on. Home ownership of young people is 35%,

used to be 60%. Are you telling me during the lifetime of this

government that is going to rise? We want to reverse the decline. We have

stabilised it. The decline started in 2004 under Labour. They weren't

bothered about it. We have taken action and that has stop the

decline... What about the rise? We have to make sure people work hard

the right thing have the chance to own their home on home. We have

helped people through help to buy, shared ownership, that is part of

it, but we have to have something to say to those who want to rent. You

say you want more rented homes so why did you introduce a 3%

additional stamp duty levied to pay those investing in build to rent

properties? That was basically to try and stop a lot of the

speculation in the buy to let market. The Bank of England raised

concerns about that. When you see the white paper, you will see there

is a package of measures for Bill to rent, trying to get institutional

investment for that, different to people going and buying a home on

the private market and renting out. You are trying to get institutional

money to comment, just as this government and subsequent ones

before said it would get pension fund money to invest in

infrastructure and it never happened. Why should this happen? Is

already starting to happen. If you go around the country you can see

some of these builder rent scheme is happening. There are changes in the

White Paper... How much money from institutions is going into bill to

rent modular hundreds of millions. I was at the stock exchange the other

day celebrating the launch of one of our bombs designed to get this money

on. There are schemes being... There is huge potential to expand it. We

need more homes and we are too dependent on a small number of large

developers. -- to launch one of our bonds. You talk about affordable

renting, what is affordable? Defined as something that is at least 20%

below the market price. It will vary around the country. Let me put it

another way. The average couple renting now have to spend 50% of

their income on rent. Is that affordable? That is exactly what

we're trying to do something about. Whether you're trying to buy or

rent, housing in this country has become less and less affordable

because the 30-40 years governments haven't built in times. This white

Paper is trying to do something about that. You have been in power

six, almost seven years. That's right. Why are ownership of new

homes to 24 year low? It was a low figure because it's a new five-year

programme. That is not a great excuse. It's not an excuse at all.

The way these things work, you have a five-year programme and in the

last year you have a record number of delivery and when you start a new

programme, a lower level. If you look at the average over six years,

this government has built more affordable housing than the previous

one. Stiletto 24 year loss, that is an embarrassment. Yes. We have the

figures, last year was 32,000, the year before 60 6000. You get this

cliff edge effect. It is embarrassing and we want to stop it

happening in the future. You want to give tenants more secure and longer

leases which rent rises are predictable in advance. Ed Miliband

promoted three-year tenancies in the 2015 general election campaign and

George Osborne said it was totally economically illiterate. What's

changed? You are merging control of the rents people in charge, which

we're not imposing. We want longer term tenancies. Most people have

six-month tenancies... Within that there would be a control on how much

the rent could go up? Right? It would be set for the period of the

tenancies. That's what I just said, that's what Ed Miliband proposed. Ed

Miliband proposed regulating it for the whole sector. One of the reasons

institutional investment is so attractive, if you had a spare home

and you want to rent out, you might need it any year, so you give it a

short tenancy. If you have a block, they are interested in a long-term

return and give families more security. You have set a target,

your government, to build in the life of this parliament 1 million

new homes in England by 2020. You're not going to make that? I think we

are. If you look at 2015-16 we had 190,000 additional homes of this

country. Just below the level we need to achieve. Over five...

2015-16. You were probably looking at the new homes built. Talking

about completions in England. That is not the best measure, with

respect. You said you will complete 1 million homes by 2020 so what is

wrong with it? We use a national statistic which looks at new homes

built and conversions and changes of use minus demolitions. The total

change of the housing stock over that year. On that basis I have the

figures here. I have the figures. You looking I just completed. 1

million new homes, the average rate of those built in the last three

quarters was 30 6000. You have 14 more quarters to get to the 1

million. You have to raise that to 50 6000. I put it to you, you won't

do it. You're not looking at the full picture of new housing in this

country. You're looking at brand-new homes and not including conversions

or changes of use are not taking off, which we should, demolitions.

If you look at the National statistic net additions, in 2015-16,

100 and 90,000 new homes. We are behind schedule. -- 190,000. I am

confident with the measures in the White Paper we can achieve that. It

is not just about the national total, we need to build these homes

are the right places. Will the green belt remain sacrosanct after the

white paper? Not proposing to change the existing protections that there

for green belts. What planning policy says is councils can remove

land from green belts but only in exceptional circumstances and should

look at at all the circumstances before doing that. No change? No. We

have a manifesto commitment. You still think you will get 1 million

homes? The green belt is only 15%. This idea we can only fix our broken

housing market by taking huge swathes of land out of the green

belt is not true. We will leave it there, thank you for joining us,

Gavin Barwell. It is coming up to 11.40.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead...

Hello, welcome to Sunday politics East.

Later in the programme, are councils struggling to keep up

with the soaring number of people sleeping on the streets?

Prevention work is important, but we are effective

Perhaps we're a little bit overpowered by the numbers.

Joining us this week are Alistair Burt, a former

minister and Conservative MP for North East Bedfordshire,

and Labour's Kelvin Hopkins, veteran Brexiteer and MP.

And of course this week has seen the historic vote

which will enable us to leave the EU.

That has been a source of great joy to people like Kelvin Hopkins,

who has campaigned to leave the EU all his life.

Not so for remainers like Alistair Burt.

We'll hear from both of them in a moment.

Tonight, there will be a historic vote in this place.

A vote that I never thought I would see in my political lifetime.

This will be the most significant decision that Parliament has taken

probably during my time as a Member of Parliament.

In the referendum we all stood up and we spoke passionately

for our respective sides, but now is the time for us to do

the other courageous thing and listen to the will

I don't feel comfortable about voting to block Article 50

proceeding because I think that would conflict with the outcome

We voted to have the referendum and I think we have

The discipline that Brexit imposes upon us is to listen very carefully

to people in Britain who clearly feel they have not been listened

I think if we're honest, we need to say that it will be

difficult for the European Union to reach a deal.

They are a complex organisation with multiple levels of interest

and many other issues that affect their agenda even though

we here would like to see our point at the top of their agenda.

The degree of detail to be covered is staggering,

both for us and our partners and new consequences

It is way more complicated than some of our colleagues

Three quarters of people in Cambridge voted to remain.

I came into Parliament to represent their views and they've

put their trust in me and I will not betray that.

I enjoy being on the Shadow Cabinet, but this is a bigger issue than that

and I'm prepared to walk if that's what I have to do.

But I have to represent what my heart tells me

and what my conscience tells me, and also what my constituents think.

If it comes to it, that's what I'll do.

Kelvin Hopkins, should Jeremy Corbyn sack Clive Lewis

It's for Jeremy to make, but I wouldn't do it personally.

I remember back in 1975 Harold Wilson and some

of the minority of the Labour Party then wanted to stay in the common

market and they allowed people to vote both ways.

The great majority of the Labour Members

of Parliament voted to leave, but Harold Wilson and a few

I don't want to see Clive resign, personally.

I think you have to accept that we're going to leave

the European Union now and we've got to get on and try to build

democratic socialism, which is what I'm about.

Alistair Burt, do you have any sympathy for Clive Lewis?

You had to vote for something this week that you don't believe

in at all and that you think would be detrimental.

I've voted for something I did believe in, which is the democratic

But as I said in my speech, I'm reconciled to the concept

of Brexit, I'm not convinced about the wisdom of it.

So yes, sometimes you have to do things because...

It's difficult for you, a lot of soul-searching went on this week.

We're going to do it and we're going to do it

as well as we possibly can, but I've not changed my mind

on whether or not I think we should have stayed in the EU.

I do entirely sympathise with colleagues who on this issue,

which has governed us for 30 to 40 years in British politics.

I've had colleagues tossing and turning, it's very difficult,

I sympathise with all colleagues who had difficult decisions to make.

Did you stay in the house to hear the result?

I went through the lobby, I knew what the result was going to be.

I've had the cheers of some of my colleagues ringing in my ears

for some time and there were some colleagues I didn't

particularly want to sit near to during that period.

Kelvin Hopkins, this may not be hard for you,

When we voted to stay in the common market in 1975,

which I remember well, there was a large number of Labour

A minority, but still a large number.

You've always had different views on these things.

I want to persuade my colleagues that the EU is essentially

anti-democratic and anti-socialist, which I've said all the time.

I've not heard a convincing argument to the counter of that.

Our objective is to make a better working life for people and I think

The great thing about all this is that Kelvin is a dedicated

socialist who believes the EU has been a capitalist construct.

My colleagues, like Iain Duncan Smith and John Redwood,

However, the debate is done, the arguments are had.

I've not been able to convince people so now we've got to create

a new and better relationship with Europe with us outside.

I think we're both dedicated to this.

In the first place, I think the period of negotiation will be

When you think about it, 27 different nations,

the European Parliament, the Commission, have all got

to agree at the end of the process to the negotiation deal

It's not all about us, it's all about them.

To imagine we'll get people into that place easily seems to me

We're going to have to work on this very hard.

I still believe getting a deal is better than walking

away and a WTO solution, but I'm concerned that I think

I have some colleagues that believe it's better to do that rather

than get negotiation and a new relationship.

It's going to be difficult, it's going to be complicated,

But I think the idea that the European Union

could actually overturn the decision made by the British

If at the end of the day the European Union tries to be

difficult, we'll just have to say we're going anyway.

Interestingly, I think they've got a great deal of interest in securing

a good relationship with us because we have a gigantic

We buy much more from them than they buy from us.

The cohesion of Europe, keeping Europe together,

governs their thinking more than any individual trade deal.

They don't want people to peel off and do the same.

Keeping the European Union together is absolutely fundamental to that.

I don't think we've fully grasped that.

Let's move on to the growing problem of homelessness.

According to the latest figures, the number of people sleeping rough

rough in this region has more than doubled.

Luton, King's Lynn, Norwich and Cambridge have seen some

Numbers here have been climbing since 2010 when there were 212

There was then a steep rise to 460 in 2015.

And it was up again last year as well, with 650 rough sleepers.

Sleeping on the street is only part of the picture.

The numbers in temporary accommodation have also soared.

We have two reports on homelessness now.

Sam Read looks at the problems in Northampton, but first, Sean Peel

It's barely daylight, this city is still in slumberland,

but outreach workers Kendal and Tim are walking the streets,

We go out at 6am to see who's out and about,

what rough sleepers are out, engage with them, make sure

they are OK, see if there are any new faces that we need to engage

with and let them know how we can help.

Cuts to services, mental health services being one, is a factor.

People being evicted because of Universal Credit being introduced.

One of the main reasons people sleep rough is

Some rough sleepers might get a place at homeless

It's nearly always full so next week they are opening some new rooms.

We had seen an increase in rough sleepers over

the last couple of years, it is steadily growing.

We put this plan together and we couldn't get to it fast

enough because the numbers have gone up since then.

We know that nationally there is a 16% rise in rough

sleeping across the country so we're not alone.

The number of people sleeping rough in our region has rocketed

in the last year alone, double in some cases.

In Bedfordshire, in Luton, it was 76.

Cambridge had 40 and according to the last count,

In Bedford, where the numbers of rough sleepers is in the top ten

nationally, TV presenter Max McMurdo, who is from the town,

He's taken his parents's old caravan and turned it into a soup kitchen

with the help of his chef friend Luke and a homeless

Bring this to the boil, keep it nice and hot and we'll

We all experience it, we walk down the street and see

someone sitting there, but we don't really know what to do.

Do you give them money, do you give them hand-outs?

People often just walk away rather than doing anything.

I don't have loads of money, I don't own a charity,

but I thought, let's turn it into a portable soup kitchen.

This week was Soupervan's maiden voyage as night falls

and the temperature drops, people are already waiting.

People like David, who's been sleeping rough

You get people coming out of the pubs that are drunk and kick

If it weren't for them, half of us would be dead

because they come out and feed us every day of the week.

A couple of guys have got on board and had bowls of soup.

I'm sure that over time it will be a slow burner,

but we've got about 20 people here tonight and knowing

there are about 60 rough sleepers, that's a third already.

Hopefully word will spread and we will get increased numbers

A Northampton day centre, offering a warm meal for people

who know all too well what it's like not to have a home.

I think you still need to make the best out of the worst situation.

Local authorities are being asked to do more.

Northampton Borough Council this week opened a new night shelter

But the Homelessness Reduction Bill, going through Parliament now,

would ask local authorities to do more prevention work,

with single people, and not just families.

The government has announced ?48 million to help local authorities

meet the new requirements for support under the new bill.

But some are questioning whether that's enough.

We do as much prevention work as we can and the money will come

in handy because maybe we'll be able to engage more staff

But yes, prevention work is important, but we are effective

Perhaps we're little bit overpowered by the numbers.

Back in the day centre, people can take a break.

But staff here know homelessness is rising

It's to do with policy, it's to do with housing crisis,

it's to do with stagnation of wages and it's to do with

Sometimes they think I can kick this person out

But landlords say margins are small and the upcoming removal of some tax

relief for landlords will put on more pressure.

It just so happens it's houses, but everybody else has to have

some sort of capital, whether it's the shop

that they are paying rent on, staff that are paid to make cups

Many people don't see it, we just do it slightly differently.

Ours is mainly capital because we are buying a house.

But we still have to do all the repairs.

This problem has been growing for several years.

It has huge social costs, personal costs, but also financial

costs when you consider that the impact of preventing

homelessness for 40,000 people will be a ?370 million

Stephen Woods knows all about the personal cost.

The so-called bedroom tax, or spare room subsidy,

and other benefit changes meant he faced eviction twice from his

The Northampton Community Law Service helped keep him in his home.

If I don't live here, I'm not going to get

anywhere else to live, I'll be living on the streets.

For me, I don't think I'd survive very long out there.

No one would object to everyone having their own place

The question is whether this new bill will help get us any

I'm joined now by Cambridge's councillor for housing, Kevin Price.

Cambridge has seen one of the highest increases.

Why are you failing to keep pace with the problem?

I don't see it that we are failing to keep pace with the problem.

As you've seen, this is a national problem.

The increase in homelessness is not just confined

But other places are doing better than you with the problem.

We already spend a lot of money on homelessness prevention

and our single homelessness service has prevented some 350

In 2010, there were something like 144 homeless applications

It's not a question of us not keeping pace, it is a question

of so many national changes taking effect in a place where the cost

of living, like Cambridge, which is very, very high.

We heard the councillor in that report describe feeling

Is this a problem that's difficult to cope with?

I wouldn't say I'm overwhelmed by it, we're disappointed

But we are aware that more and more people now are losing private rented

sector tenancies and as such have nowhere else to turn.

Councils like ours, we are a stockholding

authority, we just don't have the numbers of homes.

We heard the representative from Crisis make that case.

By preventing this, it's a very financially good decision.

We put as much money as we've got that we can put in.

I hear that the Homelessness Prevention Bill will provide some

more money and of course all extra income will be welcome.

I'm not sure the amount they are talking about will do.

Not enough money coming from central government, that's

There's something like a ?500 million programme on homelessness

The government reckons it saved maybe a million people

There's been an increase from the time that your report

was compiled, it's now ?61 million that the government

It's a bill that's been compiled with all-party support

and with the charities involved as well.

?61 million shared between all the councils everywhere.

That is new money going on top of what councils already are doing.

This bill was put together as a private member's motion,

it gathered the support of a number of charities, including

some of those you've had on the programme,

to try and help find an answer to doing something earlier.

People feel it's a very positive move to try to deal

Bedford has got one of the highest numbers of rough sleepers.

Something is going very wrong on your doorstep.

Homelessness is complex and rough sleeping is complex.

It is caused by a whole series of factors, including some that

They've often been through some difficult times, a crisis,

sometimes they've been in institutions, sometimes

The link with mental health is also incredibly important.

And the fact it's predominantly male is also something that needs

Kelvin Hopkins, we're talking about numbers in different places.

Do you know what the official count of rough sleepers is in Luton?

I forget now, but it's 79 or something like that.

I think rough sleeping is only the tip of an iceberg.

In Luton, we have 12,000 people on the waiting list.

When I was a councillor in the 1970s, we built

thousands of houses, we bought hundreds more

houses, and we housed the complete waiting list.

Not enough social housing, that's what it's all about?

I think as people know the government is very

There's a housing white paper coming out very soon.

Everybody around our region has seen a lot of housing being built,

Social housing was a problem for the last Labour government

More money is being put in, more affordable homes need to be there,

but it is a significant issue and everyone is aware of that.

Together with the changes in the nature in the way people

live, more people live single, more families are separated,

competing pressures all round, it's a big issue and councils

and government are doing the very best they can.

Kevin Price, you must walk through the streets of Cambridge

on a daily basis and you see these people that are vulnerable,

Can you do anything to promise them that things will

What we've recently set up in Cambridge is a charity called

We are encouraging local people to donate money that they might

otherwise give to people on the street.

By all means, if somebody is hungry or thirsty,

help them with that, but we feel that by directing money

through this charity, homeless people can then apply

More from both of you in just a moment.

It's time now for our 60-second round up of the week.

Demonstrations were held around the region to protest

against President Trump and his new immigration policy.

If you just lie down and pretend it's not happening,

there's nothing to stop it growing and being extended both

The Police and Crime Commissioners for Norfolk, Suffolk

and Northamptonshire want to increase their share

of council tax by 2% because the demands

Modern crime is quite complex, whether it's cyber crime,

We need to make sure we resource all of those accordingly.

The Colchester MP's appealed for the mainline to London

to be the first to get new digital signalling.

The MP for Waveney wants all fuel receipts to tell us how

Surely it is right that the nation's 37 million drivers should see

the magnitude of the tax that they pay every time

The little baby is welcome to come in.

Norwich MP Chloe Smith brings her four-month-old son

to Parliament to help her vote for Article 50.

Let me just ask you about the idea of fuel receipts showing how much

tax we are paying. Kelvin Hopkins, good idea? I like Peter very much

but this isn't sensible. We have to pay tax on some things to get enough

money to support the NHS, forces and everything else. If you show people

how much tax they are paying, they will want to pay less. It's not

sensible. Or they choose to get on their bikes! Motorists have long

complained. When the price of petrol is discussed, nobody talks about

tax. It helps people to know how much tax they are paying. People

talk about hype of the cake to taxes, telling people how much of

their tax bill goes to health or pensions. The more transparency the

better, but I'm not sure I see this as a workable idea. We started with

Article 50, there's going to be lots more discussion in Parliament. How

messy is it going to get? Legislatively, I think it will be

clear. The government will get Article 50 through. It will face a

lot of pressure on amendments in the next few weeks from the lords and

the Commons. The government has to be clear about its end result. I

don't think it will be difficult. A lot of hot air and passion. We'll

get very passionate. In the end it will be much more straightforward

than people think. Thank you. That's all from us. You can keep

programme at another time an airport expansion, but thank you to both of

you for being here. Back to you, Andrew.

Will the Government's plan to boost house-building

Could a handful of Conservative MPs cause problems for

And what is President Trump going to do next?

You have been following the genesis of this housing white paper. What do

you make of it? I think it will be quite spectacular, pretty radical

stuff. We heard bits about beating up on developers. I understand it

will be a whack, walk, covering every single problem with housing

supply and trying to solve it. Which means bad news if you are a huge fan

of the green belt, because they will go round that the other way by

forcing large quotas on councils are making it down to councils where

they build. If you fill up your brown space in towns they will have

to trigger the exceptional circumstances bit of the bill to

beat on green belts. Beating up developers, opening up the market

for renters across the board. And Theresa May, one of the most

defining thing she could do on the domestic agenda. I am not as excited

as Tom about this. I look back to 2004, do you remember the Kate

Barker report? Successive governments, successive prime

ministers have been promising to address the housing shortage. In

2004 Kate Barker recommended hundreds of thousands new homes.

Gordon Brown talked about 3 million new homes by 2020 in 2007. It never

happens. The reason is at the end of the day this is local politics,

local councillors need to keep their seats and they won't keep their

seats if there are hugely controversial developments locally

that they support. Yes, the government can and are proposing to

overrule councils that don't back local developments, but they may

find themselves completely inundated with those cases. I think that is

the whole point of it, to take on those NIMBY often Tory councils and

force them to build. I can't think of a better defining issue for

Theresa May than sticking one in the eye of some quite well off half Tory

countryside councils. The government gives councils a quota of homes they

have to fill, if they don't have to fill that all run out overland to

fill the quota, the government then comes in and tells them they have to

built on the green belt? How is that going to work? At the moment the

green belt is absolutely sacrosanct in British politics. They'll have to

do some work on educating people on what green belts means. Potato

farms, golf courses... At the moment the idea people have of the green

belt being verdant fields needs to be dismantled. You are right. I

agree with Tom, 11 million people in the private rental sector in the UK.

In the last election more voted Labour than conservative. This is an

area where Theresa May would look to expand her vote. The problem has

always been, the same problem we have with pension policy and why

pensioners have done better than working families in recent years.

They are older and they vote more and anything to the detriment of

older people. I wonder how they will get private money to come in on

anything like this go they would need to have a huge expansion? There

is a huge amount of speculation and one of the thing that locks up the

system as you have people buying land, taking out a stake of land in

the hope that one point it may at some point free up. At the end of

the day, unless you have councils far more willing to quickly fast

track these applications, which they won't for the reason I said before,

it's a very long-term investment. Ed Miliband proposed three-year leases

in which the rent could only go up by an agreed formula, probably the

three years to give the young families a certain stability over

that period. He had a use it or lose it rules for planning development,

if you don't use it you lose the planning rights. Somebody else gets

it. The Tories disparaged that at the time. This is at the centre of

their policy now. This is probably item number four of

Ed Miliband's policy book Theresa May has wholesale pinched in the

last six months or so. Why not? I think if you look at the change in

mood across housing and planning over the last 5-6 years, it used to

be an issue very much of green belt versus London planners. Now you have

grandparents living in houses in the countryside, knowing their

grandchildren can't get on the housing ladder any longer. Maybe a

bit more intervention in the market, tougher on renting conditions, maybe

that is exactly what the country needs. Will they meet the 1 million

target? It would be a defiance of every political thing that has

happened in the last ten years. I think Tom is right, if there is only

one difference between Theresa May and David Cameron it's the

willingness of the state to intervene. When Ed Miliband said

that he was seen as communism, but Theresa May can get away with it.

How serious is this talk of a couple of dozen Tories who were very loyal

over voting for the principle of Article 50 but may now be tempted to

vote for some amendments to Article 50 legislation that they would find

quite attractive? I think that threat has certainly been taken

seriously by levers. I spoke to the campaign group Leaves Means Leave

last night. The figure they mentioned was up to 20 remaining

Tories. That sounds a lot to me but that is what they are concerned

about and those Tories would come together with Labour and the SNP to

vote for that amendment. Although that amendment sounds rather nice

and democratic, actually in the eyes of many levers that is a wrecking

amendment. Because what you are doing is giving Parliament a sort of

veto over whatever deal Theresa May brings back. What they want is the

vote to be before that deal is finalised. It isn't necessarily the

case that if Parliament decided they didn't like that deal we would just

go to WTO, we would fall out of the European Union. There are mixed

views as to whether we might remain in and things could be extended. My

understanding is the people making the amendments, they won any deal

that is done to be brought to Parliament in time, so that if

Parliament fancies it it's done, but if it does and it doesn't just mean

go to WTO rules. There will be time to go back, renegotiate or think

again? The question is where it puts Britain's negotiating hand. Nine of

the options... Once we trigger Article 50 the two negotiation

begins on the power switches to Europe. They can run out the clock

and it will be worse for us than them. I don't think either option is

particularly appealing. I think what seems like a rather Serena week for

Article 50 this week isn't going to be reflective of what will happen

next. The way the government's position is at the moment, if at the

end the only choice Parliament has is to vote for the deal or crash out

on WTO rules, then even the remainder is going to vote for the

deal even if they don't like it, because they would regard crashing

out as the worst of all possible results. Possibly. It will be a

great game of bluff if Theresa May fights off any of these amendments

on Wednesday and gets a straightforward deal or no Deal

vote. I have a funny feeling this amendment, if it's chosen, we must

remember because we don't know if they will choose this amendment, if

it does go to a vote on Wednesday it will be very tight indeed. Remember,

one final thing Theresa May can do if she gets Parliament voting

against, as Isabel would have it, she could try to get a new

parliament and go for a general election. And probably get a huge

majority to do so. The Lords, it goes there after the February

recess. They are very pro-Europe, but does their instinct for

self-preservation override that? I think that is it. A Tory Lord said

this morning I will vote to block it on a conscience measure, but you

have the likes of Bill Cash, veteran Eurosceptics, suddenly converted to

the Lords reform saying is an outrage. I doubt they will vote for

their own demise, to hasten their own demise by blocking it. What did

you make of Doctor Gorka smart fascinating. Cut from the same cloth

as his boss. I thought it was extraordinary listening to him,

saying everything is going dutifully to plan. But at the end of the day,

what they are doing is what people in America voted for Trump to do. If

you look at Lord Ashcroft's polling on why America voted for Trump, they

went into this with their eyes wide open. One of the top fears among

American voters, particularly Republican leading ones was

America's immigration policy is or could be letting in terror arrests.

As far as he is concerned, he is doing what he was elected to do.

This whole year is turning into a wonderful year long lecture series

on how democracy works at a fundamental level. I'm not sure

anyone wanted it but it's what we've got. This same in the way we've been

talking about direct democracy and Parliamentary democracy. The same is

happening in America between executive and judicial branches. We

are seeing the limits of presidential power. Regardless of

the fact that people voted for Trump they voted for senators. The judge

who blocks this was appointed by George W Bush. So-called Judge

Eckert Mac so-called George W Bush! It's fascinating we're having all

these conversations now that I never bought five years ago we would be

having at such a fundamental level. Has the media yet worked out how to

cover the Trump administration or has he got us behaving like headless

chickens? He says something incendiary and we all run over to do

that and when you pick it off it turns out not to be as incendiary as

we thought? And then back doing something and we all rush over

there. Is he making fools of us? Is exactly what he did in the election

campaign. So many quick and fast outrageous comments frontrunner on a

daily basis, no one single one of them had full news cycle time to be

pored over and examined. I think there is a problem with this.

Although he keeps the upper hand, keeps the agenda and keeps on the

populist ground, the problem is it easy to campaign like that. If you

are governing in a state of semi-hysteria, I wonder how long the

American public will be comfortable with that. They don't really want

their government to be swirling chaos all the time, as fascinating

as it might be on TV. They will be exhausted by it, I already am. I

have been interviewing White House administration official since 1976

and that is the first time someone hasn't given me a straight answer on

America supporting the EU. That is a different world.

Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two tomorrow at midday with

the Daily Politics - and I'll be back here

Remember, if it's Sunday - it's the Sunday Politics.

TV: He's not your father. WOMAN GASPS

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