12/02/2017 Sunday Politics East


12/02/2017

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Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his

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impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.

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The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.

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But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?

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Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.

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And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election

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later this month, where Ukip is looking to give

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Here in the east: council tax bills across the region and are set

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to rise as local authorities struggle trying to provide social

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And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise

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Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.

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I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.

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So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability

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to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain

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The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views

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in front of an audience of students at Reading University

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This may not be popular with some people in this audience -

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I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,

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partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,

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and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,

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and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies

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of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big

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Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does

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he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,

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it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether

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there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the

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last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have

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the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy

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Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who

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pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had

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enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell

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the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running

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commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit

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negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone

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maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well

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prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --

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David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his

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position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of

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excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a

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guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical

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lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know

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his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has

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given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour

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which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a

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class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready

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replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not

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force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and

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the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is

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untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to

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fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he

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will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It

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will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to

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someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to

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life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,

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whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of

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Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a

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mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the

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referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to

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debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He

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chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no

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desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind

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of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he

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doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.

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Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into

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his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think

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that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of

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Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.

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Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving

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like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine

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doing that. It is good he is different.

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The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50

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and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through

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Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote

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with their conscience, their constituency,

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Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,

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is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.

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So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:

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Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,

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we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.

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It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.

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On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill

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was voted through by the House of Commons.

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The bill left the Labour Party divided.

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Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result

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of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -

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But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip

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That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

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Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,

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the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.

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However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,

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even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.

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The Conservative Party were much more united.

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The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.

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Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.

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His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.

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The bill will now go to the House of Lords -

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peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.

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Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at

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He's got a book out next month called

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Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.

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Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the

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referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now

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becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it

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certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics

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more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left

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and right division has been making way for a new division, between

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essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an

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incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so

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it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is

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that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social

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democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,

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that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to

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know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at

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what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at

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by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the

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Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the

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possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to

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be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are

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traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving

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the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not

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just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would

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become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a

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party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S

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seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the

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cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can

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seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the

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traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are

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offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social

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Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not

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saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of

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stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often

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gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you

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look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German

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Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a

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referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on

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April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of

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social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by

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that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would

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still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are

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trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who

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think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very

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difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of

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coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.

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Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather

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than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European

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Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now

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seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the

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issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue

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of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015

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or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the

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so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It

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is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,

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to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that

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cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might

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go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.

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Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House

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of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill

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in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged

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the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker

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with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin

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went one further - mooting the possibility

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of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate

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the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question

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in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government

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time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end

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of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this

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House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale

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reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins

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me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let

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win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a

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matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's

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remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running

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commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as

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speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about

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nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some

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opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any

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particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.

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I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I

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have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he

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handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is

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some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come

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on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have

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you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its

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job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,

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Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has

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to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the

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House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and

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expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all

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of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say

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scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking

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carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,

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hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable

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expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,

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to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that

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the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is

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seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper

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House and the House of Lords performs it pretty

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Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first

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clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go

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ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,

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this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.

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There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got

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through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are

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you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?

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No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of

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amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all

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drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.

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This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or

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not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of

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it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the

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British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons

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voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by

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the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that

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when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before

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parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been

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an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government

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has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the

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amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on

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whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the

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House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact

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I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should

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think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of

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British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on

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clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you

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concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go

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back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned

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that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?

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Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of

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ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords

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failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It

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would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of

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us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole

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country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a

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rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,

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that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts

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to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that

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make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper

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chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among

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those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of

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Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we

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should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a

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second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very

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clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has

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been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and

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what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it

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becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.

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One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it

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goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back

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again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two

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chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and

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complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of

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Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain

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machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my

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experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,

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and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want

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to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.

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Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.

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Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.

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The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were

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changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the

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amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do

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the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right

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thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or

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cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We

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will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will

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scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We

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will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote

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on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.

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That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if

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you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If

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the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will

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happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly

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legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are

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talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament

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and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for

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Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of

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negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a

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process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get

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this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back

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to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and

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it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the

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Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of

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March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think

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Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the

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normal process. Unless the government get things right the

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first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are

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reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking

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about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any

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vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,

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the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government

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I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be

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on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed

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it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to

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that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is

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important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the

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ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know

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long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?

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I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do

:24:10.:24:14.

not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when

:24:15.:24:17.

we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate

:24:18.:24:23.

these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is

:24:24.:24:29.

not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look

:24:30.:24:32.

again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords

:24:33.:24:36.

decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with

:24:37.:24:41.

what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on

:24:42.:24:46.

all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are

:24:47.:24:50.

saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to

:24:51.:24:54.

have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a

:24:55.:24:58.

referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear

:24:59.:25:03.

result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but

:25:04.:25:06.

there are things which are not good about the process that we think

:25:07.:25:10.

could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum

:25:11.:25:14.

which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that

:25:15.:25:20.

passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not

:25:21.:25:26.

contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper

:25:27.:25:31.

house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite

:25:32.:25:35.

other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from

:25:36.:25:38.

the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then

:25:39.:25:43.

forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not

:25:44.:25:48.

necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could

:25:49.:25:51.

do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not

:25:52.:25:57.

unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote

:25:58.:26:02.

in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of

:26:03.:26:06.

abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and

:26:07.:26:10.

absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of

:26:11.:26:13.

Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government

:26:14.:26:17.

and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when

:26:18.:26:22.

the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying

:26:23.:26:26.

to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to

:26:27.:26:30.

the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if

:26:31.:26:33.

the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for

:26:34.:26:42.

the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like

:26:43.:26:50.

Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and

:26:51.:26:53.

appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to

:26:54.:26:57.

defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would

:26:58.:27:03.

suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is

:27:04.:27:05.

a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in

:27:06.:27:08.

history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge

:27:09.:27:13.

or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in

:27:14.:27:19.

defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour

:27:20.:27:22.

can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right

:27:23.:27:25.

every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like

:27:26.:27:32.

Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people

:27:33.:27:36.

who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I

:27:37.:27:43.

don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make

:27:44.:27:46.

amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for

:27:47.:27:50.

the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments

:27:51.:27:53.

to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to

:27:54.:27:59.

stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying

:28:00.:28:04.

that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is

:28:05.:28:07.

inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the

:28:08.:28:11.

House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean

:28:12.:28:15.

we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will

:28:16.:28:20.

happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May

:28:21.:28:25.

has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.

:28:26.:28:28.

Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week

:28:29.:28:30.

There are two by-elections round the corner -

:28:31.:28:34.

one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central

:28:35.:28:36.

where the former Shadow Education Secretary,

:28:37.:28:37.

Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role

:28:38.:28:40.

as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.

:28:41.:28:43.

But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency

:28:44.:28:45.

Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring

:28:46.:28:51.

as their candidate in a by-election bout to see

:28:52.:28:54.

At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here

:28:55.:29:01.

But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,

:29:02.:29:06.

because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.

:29:07.:29:13.

70% of people voted to leave the European Union.

:29:14.:29:16.

I'm the only candidate standing in this election

:29:17.:29:24.

who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave

:29:25.:29:26.

the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person

:29:27.:29:29.

But he has had to fight off allegations

:29:30.:29:32.

he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.

:29:33.:29:35.

Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?

:29:36.:29:38.

Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.

:29:39.:29:40.

Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.

:29:41.:29:43.

The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election

:29:44.:29:48.

and focus on something which is banal nonsense.

:29:49.:29:55.

And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.

:29:56.:30:00.

He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series

:30:01.:30:03.

of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words

:30:04.:30:06.

I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery

:30:07.:30:16.

on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that

:30:17.:30:19.

I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.

:30:20.:30:24.

It was done quite after the referendum result and it

:30:25.:30:26.

was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months

:30:27.:30:30.

after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.

:30:31.:30:35.

Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,

:30:36.:30:37.

she had failed to give any meaningful statement

:30:38.:30:38.

about what Brexit meant other than bland statements

:30:39.:30:40.

about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.

:30:41.:30:44.

The context of it was it was out of frustration.

:30:45.:30:48.

So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here

:30:49.:30:51.

I never mean to insult anybody and you know,

:30:52.:30:54.

I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member

:30:55.:30:57.

of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect

:30:58.:30:59.

the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.

:31:00.:31:01.

I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.

:31:02.:31:05.

While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.

:31:06.:31:08.

I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority

:31:09.:31:11.

is about the economy and to ensure we still have an

:31:12.:31:13.

Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop

:31:14.:31:17.

a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.

:31:18.:31:27.

It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.

:31:28.:31:30.

Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.

:31:31.:31:32.

The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.

:31:33.:31:38.

He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.

:31:39.:31:41.

He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.

:31:42.:31:44.

30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else

:31:45.:31:47.

is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.

:31:48.:31:51.

It is still something people care about.

:31:52.:31:53.

We are only at the start of the Article 50 process

:31:54.:31:56.

We are very a clear that we are standing up for those

:31:57.:32:01.

who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs

:32:02.:32:04.

Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.

:32:05.:32:09.

Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.

:32:10.:32:11.

I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.

:32:12.:32:14.

We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this

:32:15.:32:17.

And here is a full list of all the candidates standing

:32:18.:32:37.

in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.

:32:38.:32:48.

They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website

:32:49.:32:56.

as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition

:32:57.:33:04.

party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a

:33:05.:33:06.

government. All the speculation is where the

:33:07.:33:14.

opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an

:33:15.:33:19.

equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held

:33:20.:33:24.

traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by

:33:25.:33:30.

the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of

:33:31.:33:34.

these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the

:33:35.:33:40.

leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.

:33:41.:33:44.

Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the

:33:45.:33:49.

years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like

:33:50.:33:57.

Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,

:33:58.:34:01.

Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are

:34:02.:34:11.

more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more

:34:12.:34:16.

diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent

:34:17.:34:19.

evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up

:34:20.:34:23.

the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope

:34:24.:34:27.

lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would

:34:28.:34:31.

suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear

:34:32.:34:35.

too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it

:34:36.:34:39.

still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is

:34:40.:34:44.

a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,

:34:45.:34:51.

over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I

:34:52.:34:56.

mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they

:34:57.:35:03.

had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what

:35:04.:35:08.

they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over

:35:09.:35:12.

the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an

:35:13.:35:17.

era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a

:35:18.:35:21.

regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,

:35:22.:35:29.

but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do

:35:30.:35:32.

split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is

:35:33.:35:37.

still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and

:35:38.:35:43.

Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently

:35:44.:35:47.

that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the

:35:48.:35:52.

current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be

:35:53.:35:56.

a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current

:35:57.:35:58.

Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about

:35:59.:36:02.

Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think

:36:03.:36:06.

that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the

:36:07.:36:11.

mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour

:36:12.:36:15.

candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is

:36:16.:36:19.

is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has

:36:20.:36:23.

done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember

:36:24.:36:29.

speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after

:36:30.:36:35.

the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and

:36:36.:36:39.

this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one

:36:40.:36:43.

particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to

:36:44.:36:47.

play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win

:36:48.:36:52.

it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has

:36:53.:36:55.

made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,

:36:56.:36:59.

are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were

:37:00.:37:05.

saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the

:37:06.:37:08.

moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to

:37:09.:37:12.

overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has

:37:13.:37:16.

been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,

:37:17.:37:20.

but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why

:37:21.:37:26.

I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.

:37:27.:37:32.

At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these

:37:33.:37:35.

by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for

:37:36.:37:39.

Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been

:37:40.:37:42.

in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.

:37:43.:37:47.

We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of

:37:48.:37:51.

this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial

:37:52.:37:53.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:54.:37:57.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:37:58.:38:00.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:01.:38:12.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics East.

:38:13.:38:14.

Later in the programme, Council tax rises across

:38:15.:38:24.

the board to help pay for social care.

:38:25.:38:29.

And keep the wheels of local government turning.

:38:30.:38:31.

We are at breaking point and I think at

:38:32.:38:33.

this point in time I am not prepared to stop services.

:38:34.:38:35.

With us this week, Sharon Taylor, Labour leader of

:38:36.:38:38.

Stevenage Council, and Stuart Jackson,

:38:39.:38:39.

the Conservative MP for

:38:40.:38:40.

Peterborough, who works with David Davis, the secretary

:38:41.:38:42.

enable us to leave the EU cleared its latest

:38:43.:38:51.

stage in the Commons and

:38:52.:38:55.

Rebels on the Labour side included Norwich MP Clive Lewis who has

:38:56.:39:01.

resigned for his front bench role as the Shadow Business Secretary.

:39:02.:39:03.

But for others the vote was the culmination

:39:04.:39:05.

I spent many, many years pushing for this moment.

:39:06.:39:10.

I've triggered a by-election and caused a bit of a

:39:11.:39:17.

kerfuffle in my Clacton constituency, but ever

:39:18.:39:18.

in Clacton and was elected as their member of Parliament, I said to my

:39:19.:39:24.

constituents I would do anything I could to make sure Britain leaves

:39:25.:39:27.

the EU and that is now going happen and we know that is going to happen

:39:28.:39:31.

and I think it is great news and we will be a more prosperous,

:39:32.:39:34.

I do think it is important the Labour Party

:39:35.:39:38.

reflects both positions on

:39:39.:39:39.

this in the country is divided and so in some ways the surprise

:39:40.:39:43.

to me is more comment has not been made

:39:44.:39:46.

about the fact the Conservatives are now being taken over by the very

:39:47.:39:49.

few people who used to make John Major's

:39:50.:39:51.

That is the real coup that has happened in British

:39:52.:39:55.

Stewart Jackson, that is the real coup?

:39:56.:39:57.

And Daniel Zeichner is slightly out of

:39:58.:40:03.

order, if I'm honest, because you booted for

:40:04.:40:06.

the EU referendum bill in

:40:07.:40:09.

June 2015 which, not only enacted the referendum but promised, there

:40:10.:40:12.

was an agreement six to one, in the Commons

:40:13.:40:14.

we're going to vote against the enacting

:40:15.:40:24.

of Article 50, I think is

:40:25.:40:26.

Would you have voted, if it had gone the other way,

:40:27.:40:29.

Would you have said, my constituents wanted to

:40:30.:40:33.

It would have been difficult but if I

:40:34.:40:36.

had accepted the central premise we are trusting the people and

:40:37.:40:41.

Parliament had debated that and we had a referendum with a big

:40:42.:40:44.

debate I think it would be disingenuous for

:40:45.:40:51.

me then to have said you are wrong and I'm going to vote how I choose.

:40:52.:40:55.

I think that this likely what Daniel is doing,

:40:56.:40:57.

albeit he is a good and

:40:58.:40:58.

diligent MP for Cambridge I think he is wrong on this issue.

:40:59.:41:01.

When you look at the Labour Party from your

:41:02.:41:04.

position rather than the House of Commons, how do you think

:41:05.:41:07.

what has gone on there reflects on

:41:08.:41:09.

Well, I campaigned tirelessly for Remain, as are sure you know,

:41:10.:41:13.

and I think we now have a result which we have two act as it was.

:41:14.:41:16.

At the same with the general election,

:41:17.:41:18.

you take it on the chin if you don't win and I think there are some huge

:41:19.:41:22.

I think there are some big threats as well and I think

:41:23.:41:30.

it is right we take account of those, and for my

:41:31.:41:32.

major international companies, I think we have got to look at what

:41:33.:41:40.

the threats are to them and I'm sure we will be considering them but

:41:41.:41:43.

You've stood at the last general election.

:41:44.:41:46.

If you had been in the Commons you would not have gone

:41:47.:41:50.

I can't tell you how many times I have thought about

:41:51.:41:53.

It is an issue, and I totally respect Daniel's

:41:54.:42:06.

view, and Clive, that this was a view they

:42:07.:42:09.

a way that puts our country in jeopardy.

:42:10.:42:12.

This is not the right term for our country

:42:13.:42:16.

But of course Stevenage people voted, not overwhelmingly, but

:42:17.:42:20.

decisively to leave the EU so I would have had a very difficult

:42:21.:42:23.

I cannot tell you which way I would have gone.

:42:24.:42:27.

I am a very principled individual and feel very

:42:28.:42:30.

strongly that leaving the EU is the wrong

:42:31.:42:31.

decision for our country at

:42:32.:42:32.

Of course, it wasn't just the politicians

:42:33.:42:38.

Seven months ago we met with people from Suffolk who were working

:42:39.:42:42.

What do they think about the result now?

:42:43.:42:45.

Andrew Sinclair has been back to Suffolk to find out.

:42:46.:42:48.

There has always been a giant question mark outside

:42:49.:42:50.

But last year there was no question over

:42:51.:43:03.

where this college stood on

:43:04.:43:04.

This is where the then Prime Minister came to make

:43:05.:43:07.

This is a really massive decision for our country and is a huge

:43:08.:43:12.

Johnson came by touting for votes it was the campus

:43:13.:43:21.

provost no less who led the protests.

:43:22.:43:23.

There are no reputable arguments on the Leave side and I

:43:24.:43:25.

think all of the weight of evidence is clear

:43:26.:43:28.

we have a better future as

:43:29.:43:29.

Seven months on and some things have changed.

:43:30.:43:38.

The college has now been designated a University and the

:43:39.:43:41.

That side lost the argument and now what we have got to

:43:42.:43:54.

do is get on and make the best of it in the sense we have got to do for

:43:55.:43:59.

the communities we serve, the institutions we lead, we've got to

:44:00.:44:02.

He says the referendum vote has already made

:44:03.:44:10.

the University rethink its business plan and it is now looking at

:44:11.:44:15.

links with bodies outside of the EU and will try to

:44:16.:44:18.

recruit more students from the UK because the numbers coming from

:44:19.:44:21.

Higher education is potentially one of the

:44:22.:44:24.

most vulnerable sectors in the whole of the UK economy and it is a

:44:25.:44:27.

We need freedom of intellectual movement and there

:44:28.:44:31.

is also the capacity to share in joint research work

:44:32.:44:38.

because if UK researchers get cut out of

:44:39.:44:45.

international, particularly European, research work, there is no

:44:46.:44:47.

So, is this a mixed container or all the same?

:44:48.:44:52.

But here is someone who is not worrying about things going

:44:53.:44:55.

Suffolk businessman Stephen became one of the main faces

:44:56.:44:57.

I was rather chuffed to get that, I did

:44:58.:45:07.

The owner of a storage and import business, he told

:45:08.:45:10.

us this time last year he did not like the restrictions the EU put on

:45:11.:45:14.

trade or the amount of red tape coming out of Brussels.

:45:15.:45:18.

The issue with the EU we have is the

:45:19.:45:20.

If you printed it out it would be about one foot tall.

:45:21.:45:29.

There are multiple tariff headings for single items depending on what

:45:30.:45:32.

Seven months on, he is pleased Article 50 will

:45:33.:45:36.

soon be triggered but is frustrated about how long it is all taken.

:45:37.:45:41.

In business, if you decide to do something to get on and do it.

:45:42.:45:44.

This Government has taken seven months to

:45:45.:45:47.

say what they could have said six months ago.

:45:48.:45:50.

As someone who deals in trade how do you

:45:51.:45:53.

feel about being out of the

:45:54.:45:55.

customs union and not having free movement around Europe any

:45:56.:45:58.

Out of the customs union will add a level of complication because

:45:59.:46:06.

there will need to be paperwork between Europe and the UK.

:46:07.:46:09.

I am but I say there will need to be paperwork but you never know what

:46:10.:46:18.

This has been a very divisive result, hasn't

:46:19.:46:23.

Yes, unfortunately, and I am not sure why it remains so

:46:24.:46:27.

It is something a lot of people have been

:46:28.:46:30.

asking for a long time and

:46:31.:46:31.

we finally got the opportunity to have that vote.

:46:32.:46:34.

You don't think the country has changed adversely?

:46:35.:46:35.

So you haven't seen it change for the worse?

:46:36.:46:46.

Well, I think there is such a degree of

:46:47.:46:48.

uncertainty and think it is causing some problems for businesses across

:46:49.:46:51.

the board, whether large corporate companies

:46:52.:46:52.

like some of the ones in

:46:53.:46:54.

That degree of uncertainty is causing

:46:55.:46:56.

some problems and I think some of the people that voted Leave did

:46:57.:47:00.

think it was going to happen instantly and I think what we need

:47:01.:47:03.

to see is a clear vision and plan for the future of how, what this

:47:04.:47:07.

country is going to look like as a country outside the EU and what

:47:08.:47:10.

There are some possible opportunities in there, I am not

:47:11.:47:14.

side, if I'm honest, we got a clear vision

:47:15.:47:20.

about what the country would

:47:21.:47:21.

look like on the other side of this referendum.

:47:22.:47:27.

In the film we've heard, "Why didn't you do it six months ago?"

:47:28.:47:30.

Well, for people not involved in politics and

:47:31.:47:35.

Government it probably seems to have dragged

:47:36.:47:37.

fact is if you are in a club you have to abide by the rules until

:47:38.:47:47.

you leave and our international treaty obligations say we have to go

:47:48.:47:50.

through the proper procedures, Article 50, it takes time, we now

:47:51.:47:52.

have gone through Parliament and on to the High Court, Supreme Court,

:47:53.:47:55.

back to Parliament with an emphatic majority and now the time has come

:47:56.:47:58.

and by the end of March we will trigger

:47:59.:48:01.

Article 50 and start the

:48:02.:48:02.

You could have done it without the court cases though.

:48:03.:48:11.

It took Gina Miller to take you through the courts to get

:48:12.:48:14.

you back into Parliament and I think that was disgraceful.

:48:15.:48:16.

I would like to thank Gina Miller for supposedly

:48:17.:48:20.

It was trying to put the kibosh on Brexit.

:48:21.:48:27.

She has done us a favour because she has strengthened

:48:28.:48:29.

Parliamentary sovereignty and we are now closer to Article 50.

:48:30.:48:32.

That's what a lot of it was about, parliamentary sovereignty?

:48:33.:48:34.

It was, but we had to test in the court.

:48:35.:48:37.

It wasn't about wasting taxpayer money,

:48:38.:48:38.

we had to test the extent of Crown prerogative

:48:39.:48:40.

and we now know that and

:48:41.:48:42.

it has been established and we need to get on with the process.

:48:43.:48:46.

One thing about the red tape, I know that is a catchall phrase but all

:48:47.:48:50.

the paperwork he was saying he had to do

:48:51.:48:52.

because we were in the EU but it will get just

:48:53.:48:55.

To go back to higher education thing, science, innovation and

:48:56.:49:02.

technology, higher education, we are a superpower across the world

:49:03.:49:04.

and if we have a global outward looking

:49:05.:49:06.

outward facing approach to trade in the Commonwealth,

:49:07.:49:12.

as Sharon says we have a great future ahead of us

:49:13.:49:16.

and we have to get it right and get through

:49:17.:49:20.

those initial negotiations with the EU.

:49:21.:49:25.

Look how long it took Canada to negotiate their deal.

:49:26.:49:27.

We could end up with more paperwork and more

:49:28.:49:30.

complexity than you would have had in the EU and I think that is a big

:49:31.:49:34.

We are already compliant so it is not going to be a cliff edge,

:49:35.:49:38.

Now to the question of council tax and how much we will

:49:39.:49:44.

Our councils say they have never been under so

:49:45.:49:47.

much pressure with funding cuts from central Government and an increase

:49:48.:49:50.

in the national minimum wage and the growing

:49:51.:49:54.

Most authorities still have to approve their proposals but three of

:49:55.:49:59.

our councils are planning an increase of up to the 3% allowed by

:50:00.:50:02.

Northamptonshire and Milton Keynes hope to charge just a little more to

:50:03.:50:09.

help to pay for services but most of our councils are proposing an

:50:10.:50:12.

increase of between 4.5 and 4.99% in total.

:50:13.:50:16.

For an average band D property that would mean an extra

:50:17.:50:21.

?23 34 in Cambridgeshire and ?59.69 in Milton Keynes.

:50:22.:50:30.

Most other places are somewhere in between.

:50:31.:50:32.

And I think at this point in time I am not

:50:33.:50:35.

I am not prepared to close libraries and I'm

:50:36.:50:39.

not prepared to reduce the

:50:40.:50:40.

maintenance on highways, for example.

:50:41.:50:45.

What I want to do is get Government to recognise this is a

:50:46.:50:48.

serious issue and it needs to be dealt with.

:50:49.:50:54.

So councils can put up their budget by 3% a cover social

:50:55.:50:59.

care and an extra 2% if they want to raise extra money.

:51:00.:51:07.

their budget this week and now let's talk to their leader, Colin

:51:08.:51:11.

You only put yours up by 3% to cover social care.

:51:12.:51:15.

Why did you not go further and raise more money?

:51:16.:51:17.

We came in in 2005 after the Liberals

:51:18.:51:19.

and Labour had put the council tax up by 13% and we said then that we

:51:20.:51:23.

wanted to get control of finances and make it

:51:24.:51:25.

run more efficiently and

:51:26.:51:26.

in 2010 we delivered seven years of 0% which

:51:27.:51:32.

got elected in 2013 and that we would do

:51:33.:51:35.

Everybody is strapped for cash and you are going to cut

:51:36.:51:41.

We are trying to do things differently.

:51:42.:51:46.

We have done things with libraries where we no

:51:47.:51:48.

There is an industrial province society which

:51:49.:51:51.

So all the time what we're trying to do is find new ways

:51:52.:51:55.

to do things so we do not cut the front line but we do cut.

:51:56.:51:59.

There was talk of a ?30 million cut.

:52:00.:52:02.

Basically, what we said is we have identified we need to make ?30

:52:03.:52:07.

million worth of savings next year so we are going through every single

:52:08.:52:10.

Basically, what we're trying to do is be more efficient in back office,

:52:11.:52:18.

share services with other councils and also saying to our providers and

:52:19.:52:21.

you will have to sharpen your pencils, you will have to be more

:52:22.:52:24.

leaner and how you operate and how we go about our business.

:52:25.:52:27.

More efficient in the back office, leaner, does that mean job losses?

:52:28.:52:30.

How do you think that is going to go down with the people

:52:31.:52:34.

We are the holders of the public purse and what we are

:52:35.:52:38.

saying is we believe it is incredibly important we are as

:52:39.:52:41.

We recognise in council tax it is people's hard earned money

:52:42.:52:47.

and so we are very focused on making sure we

:52:48.:52:51.

are as efficient as possible, yet at the same time what we have

:52:52.:53:01.

announced is we will pay our residential care

:53:02.:53:03.

providers 20% more on the base rate and our domiciliary care providers

:53:04.:53:06.

So the 3% you are allowed to increase by to

:53:07.:53:09.

cover social care, will that cover all of the problems you have?

:53:10.:53:12.

Basically, that will just about pay for the national living wage.

:53:13.:53:15.

All of us agree the national living wage is

:53:16.:53:17.

an important thing for care workers and the lowest paid so what we have

:53:18.:53:20.

said to the people of Suffolk is we want to apply that

:53:21.:53:23.

and the bulk of that will go to front line care

:53:24.:53:26.

workers and front line lowest paid workers so they get the national

:53:27.:53:29.

Do you think the Government is listening when the

:53:30.:53:32.

councils say they have a problem and social care?

:53:33.:53:34.

You had David Finch on earlier and David and I sit with the

:53:35.:53:40.

county council network and we both lobby very hard.

:53:41.:53:42.

There is a conversation to be had about the

:53:43.:53:47.

amount of money that physically flows, and the CCN is talking with

:53:48.:53:51.

Government and saying when you look at an ageing population and rural

:53:52.:53:54.

communities we need to see more funding for those.

:53:55.:53:57.

It is about being more efficient and being firm with

:53:58.:53:59.

our providers as to what we want and do not

:54:00.:54:01.

want but there has to be a

:54:02.:54:03.

Yet you could have put it up by another 2%.

:54:04.:54:08.

It certainly is but we made a pledge.

:54:09.:54:10.

Shannon Taylor, you understand these problems, is 3%

:54:11.:54:15.

enough to cover any of the shortages we have?

:54:16.:54:22.

There is a very serious shortage in social care funding and

:54:23.:54:29.

we saw the issue with Surrey where David decided to announce he was

:54:30.:54:32.

My view is David played some poker with the

:54:33.:54:38.

Government and won that game of poker, but we should not be playing

:54:39.:54:41.

And keeping on slicing little bits of funding from local Government's

:54:42.:54:47.

core funding to fund social care is not going to work.

:54:48.:54:49.

They are calling this a sweetheart deal in Surrey.

:54:50.:54:54.

Do you know anybody else offered this kind of deal?

:54:55.:55:01.

I do not know anybody else, perhaps David might

:55:02.:55:04.

We certainly have not had one in Hertfordshire.

:55:05.:55:07.

But we are certainly very keen to learn the details of

:55:08.:55:09.

The important thing now is the details are published.

:55:10.:55:13.

The Government is saying there is no deal and I am very suspicious about

:55:14.:55:16.

that and think we need to see what has been agreed for Surrey and

:55:17.:55:19.

overall the Local Government Association has been campaigning for

:55:20.:55:22.

a long time to say to Government, this is not the way to do business

:55:23.:55:25.

and we need to make sure there is adequate funding for social care.

:55:26.:55:28.

We think there are still savings in the

:55:29.:55:32.

system and that is the integration of health and social care.

:55:33.:55:34.

I know there has been issues over that, but

:55:35.:55:37.

prevention will save us money in the longer term and some of the

:55:38.:55:43.

initiatives we have seen from local Government that help integrate

:55:44.:55:45.

health and social care are making a real difference.

:55:46.:55:49.

Stewart Jackson, Government has not perhaps come out

:55:50.:55:51.

of this as well as it might have done.

:55:52.:55:53.

I do not know the full details of the so-called text gate.

:55:54.:55:56.

If there has been a sweetheart deal...

:55:57.:55:58.

The moral of the story, make sure you

:55:59.:56:07.

are sending a text to the right nick.

:56:08.:56:09.

On a serious point there have been significant progress in things

:56:10.:56:13.

like the better care fund and we are seeing some local

:56:14.:56:16.

authorities getting better integration between

:56:17.:56:18.

primary and acute care and adult social care but that is, as I keep

:56:19.:56:22.

saying, a demographic time bomb and we need to move on from just

:56:23.:56:24.

having one of social care precept into a

:56:25.:56:26.

more sustainable funding formula and I think the Chancellor

:56:27.:56:30.

Is it a way for a Government to behave, where,

:56:31.:56:40.

rather than letting a council have a referendum in case it goes

:56:41.:56:43.

against the way they wanted to be, but

:56:44.:56:44.

actually get some kind of sweetheart deal?

:56:45.:56:46.

That is not the way to run a Government, is it?

:56:47.:56:49.

There is always the issue around localism, because

:56:50.:56:51.

of the local authority has different demographic factors, different

:56:52.:56:54.

budget issues, older people, younger people.

:56:55.:56:57.

So they will always be council leaders saying we are a

:56:58.:56:59.

There is no case for making Sunday special case.

:57:00.:57:07.

One could argue for many years under Labour northern and Midland

:57:08.:57:14.

authorities were made special cases. What do you think of them weren't

:57:15.:57:19.

doing business this way? The most important thing is how we integrate

:57:20.:57:25.

health and social care. That is a very political answer. On the

:57:26.:57:30.

ground, the actual answer is there a need to be more money, closer

:57:31.:57:35.

integration, health and social care must address this time bomb. We have

:57:36.:57:45.

an ageing population and it changes how you must deliver health is the

:57:46.:57:50.

system must change and those are far more fundamental argument that

:57:51.:57:51.

issues about Surrey and individual issues about Surrey and individual

:57:52.:57:53.

deals. Thank you being with us. Note for our round-up of the political

:57:54.:57:55.

week in 60 seconds. Genome research is under

:57:56.:57:59.

threat because of Brexit, A world-renowned institute told this

:58:00.:58:07.

science and technology select

:58:08.:58:09.

committee this week. There is concern over the status

:58:10.:58:10.

of their EU workers. On the wider campus you are probably

:58:11.:58:12.

touching 40% Of staff from the EU and the no longer feel welcome

:58:13.:58:18.

and that is a threat. Free range egg producers

:58:19.:58:21.

in Norfolk are worried they will lose their free

:58:22.:58:24.

range status within weeks flu mean flocks must

:58:25.:58:32.

be kept indoors. Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has

:58:33.:58:36.

failed to give guarantees about the future of the

:58:37.:58:39.

Cambridgeshire minor injuries unit at Ealing after it was

:58:40.:58:41.

raised in the house. Does the secretary of state agree

:58:42.:58:45.

with me that money spent in the Ealing Princess of Wales minor

:58:46.:58:48.

injuries unit is money extremely And bad news for Colchester

:58:49.:58:50.

MP Will Quince w ho And bad news for Colchester

:58:51.:58:55.

MP Will Quince who failed to be picked to compete in

:58:56.:58:58.

Britain's Got Talent, despite this While he was singing what did you

:58:59.:59:28.

say? Shocking results. The science question, whether places

:59:29.:59:35.

are here can continue to work well with Europe. What is your take? I

:59:36.:59:43.

think collaboration is worldwide. Petition entities and academic

:59:44.:59:47.

institutions are collaborating on things like Iran is must, Horizon

:59:48.:59:53.

2020 and other scientific projects and it will continue -- things like

:59:54.:00:04.

Erasmus. But things other countries do not want to be part of us if we

:00:05.:00:09.

are not part of Europe. People will want to come here because of our

:00:10.:00:14.

time zone, stability, labour market flexibility. And they will be

:00:15.:00:22.

allowed to come? Of course. Sought to assure my colleagues part of the

:00:23.:00:31.

European Space Agency project, who have just opened their fantastic

:00:32.:00:36.

Mars rover visitor Centre, they have concerned when they put in bids for

:00:37.:00:42.

European Space Agency funding that is the uncertainty around Brexit. We

:00:43.:00:46.

have world beating pharmaceuticals in Stevenage. How would you reassure

:00:47.:00:52.

them that everything will be rosy for them? We are not in Leave Remain

:00:53.:00:59.

any more, we are all pulling in the same direction. There

:01:00.:01:04.

After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,

:01:05.:01:15.

MPs are having a little break this week as we head into

:01:16.:01:18.

But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -

:01:19.:01:22.

let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.

:01:23.:01:29.

There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The

:01:30.:01:39.

budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this

:01:40.:01:42.

Government because it moves to the autumn.

:01:43.:01:56.

That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably

:01:57.:02:03.

about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,

:02:04.:02:08.

then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next

:02:09.:02:16.

President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour

:02:17.:02:19.

leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of

:02:20.:02:23.

March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew

:02:24.:02:29.

Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to

:02:30.:02:33.

block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised

:02:34.:02:39.

if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination

:02:40.:02:44.

to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think

:02:45.:02:49.

one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor

:02:50.:02:53.

the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you

:02:54.:02:58.

think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it

:02:59.:03:01.

would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name

:03:02.:03:04.

the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a

:03:05.:03:10.

good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics

:03:11.:03:14.

for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in

:03:15.:03:17.

our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can

:03:18.:03:22.

find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to

:03:23.:03:26.

time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change

:03:27.:03:30.

politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger

:03:31.:03:36.

than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal

:03:37.:03:40.

Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would

:03:41.:03:45.

suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does

:03:46.:03:50.

get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay

:03:51.:03:55.

that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have

:03:56.:03:58.

another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary

:03:59.:04:05.

of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the

:04:06.:04:12.

table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have

:04:13.:04:16.

done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew

:04:17.:04:20.

Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back

:04:21.:04:26.

but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal

:04:27.:04:32.

Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not

:04:33.:04:37.

the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the

:04:38.:04:41.

European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know

:04:42.:04:45.

because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch

:04:46.:04:48.

taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at

:04:49.:04:52.

the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a

:04:53.:04:59.

play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first

:05:00.:05:07.

in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish

:05:08.:05:11.

Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that

:05:12.:05:16.

will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.

:05:17.:05:21.

You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a

:05:22.:05:25.

national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing

:05:26.:05:29.

France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A

:05:30.:05:37.

reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in

:05:38.:05:42.

the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected

:05:43.:05:48.

elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal

:05:49.:05:54.

views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them

:05:55.:06:02.

to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le

:06:03.:06:09.

Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the

:06:10.:06:14.

future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are

:06:15.:06:21.

were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some

:06:22.:06:25.

problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in

:06:26.:06:29.

the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a

:06:30.:06:33.

number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of

:06:34.:06:40.

people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She

:06:41.:06:48.

thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't

:06:49.:06:54.

got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to

:06:55.:06:59.

play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,

:07:00.:07:03.

not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how

:07:04.:07:09.

much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting

:07:10.:07:22.

on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from

:07:23.:07:25.

European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see

:07:26.:07:29.

what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do

:07:30.:07:34.

know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get

:07:35.:07:38.

through to the second round. He could come firth but the

:07:39.:07:43.

centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would

:07:44.:07:47.

say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to

:07:48.:07:52.

saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le

:07:53.:07:56.

Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,

:07:57.:08:02.

it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as

:08:03.:08:08.

in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had

:08:09.:08:11.

got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has

:08:12.:08:15.

transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the

:08:16.:08:21.

French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April

:08:22.:08:26.

23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he

:08:27.:08:31.

was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,

:08:32.:08:32.

this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership

:08:33.:08:38.

election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,

:08:39.:08:41.

but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this

:08:42.:08:45.

parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear

:08:46.:08:47.

message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you

:08:48.:09:03.

are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media

:09:04.:09:09.

performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,

:09:10.:09:12.

things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win

:09:13.:09:17.

2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their

:09:18.:09:22.

offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking

:09:23.:09:27.

well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might

:09:28.:09:32.

like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going

:09:33.:09:40.

to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he

:09:41.:09:47.

the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership

:09:48.:09:53.

is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide

:09:54.:09:58.

to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is

:09:59.:10:03.

not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be

:10:04.:10:07.

the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas

:10:08.:10:12.

would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if

:10:13.:10:18.

we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general

:10:19.:10:23.

election, which means you have another itration of this, another

:10:24.:10:27.

five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour

:10:28.:10:34.

moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general

:10:35.:10:39.

election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for

:10:40.:10:43.

the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn

:10:44.:10:48.

going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment

:10:49.:10:52.

being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated

:10:53.:10:58.

the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.

:10:59.:11:03.

Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had

:11:04.:11:09.

their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest

:11:10.:11:13.

they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any

:11:14.:11:18.

indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is

:11:19.:11:25.

now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what

:11:26.:11:30.

he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another

:11:31.:11:35.

attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question

:11:36.:11:41.

enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a

:11:42.:11:47.

daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about

:11:48.:11:53.

winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of

:11:54.:11:56.

two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself

:11:57.:12:00.

will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half

:12:01.:12:07.

hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some

:12:08.:12:12.

people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another

:12:13.:12:18.

three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it

:12:19.:12:24.

lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be

:12:25.:12:28.

under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this

:12:29.:12:33.

level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the

:12:34.:12:38.

idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the

:12:39.:12:42.

people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and

:12:43.:12:47.

they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most

:12:48.:12:52.

of people were let alone most of the public.

:12:53.:12:56.

Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership

:12:57.:13:03.

potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the

:13:04.:13:07.

Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That

:13:08.:13:08.

is it. Now, there's no Daily

:13:09.:13:12.

or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back

:13:13.:13:14.

on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics

:13:15.:13:19.

on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:20.:13:23.

it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from

:13:24.:13:25.

a very long shift at work... The staff are losing -

:13:26.:14:07.

they're just giving in. Panorama goes undercover

:14:08.:14:13.

to reveal the real cost OK, everyone, have you got

:14:14.:14:18.

your bamboo sticks? If you just paint

:14:19.:14:49.

what you want to paint, I've turned around,

:14:50.:14:51.

my painting washes away. ..and take on

:14:52.:14:57.

The Big Painting Challenge. Remember, you're not painting

:14:58.:15:02.

a pond.

:15:03.:15:05.

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