12/02/2017 Sunday Politics East


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Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his


impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.


The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.


But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?


Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.


And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election


later this month, where Ukip is looking to give


Here in the east: council tax bills across the region and are set


to rise as local authorities struggle trying to provide social


And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise


Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.


I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.


So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability


to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain


The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views


in front of an audience of students at Reading University


This may not be popular with some people in this audience -


I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,


partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,


and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,


and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies


of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big


Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does


he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,


it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether


there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the


last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have


the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy


Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who


pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had


enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell


the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running


commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit


negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone


maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well


prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --


David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his


position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of


excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a


guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical


lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know


his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has


given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour


which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a


class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready


replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not


force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and


the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is


untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to


fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he


will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It


will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to


someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to


life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,


whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of


Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a


mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the


referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to


debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He


chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no


desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind


of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he


doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.


Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into


his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think


that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of


Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.


Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving


like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine


doing that. It is good he is different.


The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50


and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through


Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote


with their conscience, their constituency,


Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,


is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.


So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:


Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,


we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.


It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.


On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill


was voted through by the House of Commons.


The bill left the Labour Party divided.


Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result


of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -


But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip


That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.


Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,


the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.


However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,


even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.


The Conservative Party were much more united.


The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.


Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.


His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.


The bill will now go to the House of Lords -


peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.


Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at


He's got a book out next month called


Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.


Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the


referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now


becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it


certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics


more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left


and right division has been making way for a new division, between


essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an


incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so


it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is


that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social


democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,


that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to


know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at


what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at


by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the


Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the


possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to


be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are


traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving


the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not


just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would


become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a


party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S


seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the


cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can


seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the


traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are


offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social


Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not


saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of


stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often


gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you


look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German


Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a


referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on


April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of


social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by


that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would


still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are


trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who


think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very


difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of


coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.


Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather


than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European


Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now


seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the


issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue


of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015


or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the


so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It


is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,


to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that


cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might


go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.


Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House


of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill


in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged


the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker


with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin


went one further - mooting the possibility


of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate


the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question


in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government


time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end


of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this


House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale


reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins


me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let


win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a


matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's


remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running


commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as


speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about


nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some


opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any


particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.


I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I


have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he


handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is


some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come


on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have


you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its


job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,


Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has


to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the


House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and


expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all


of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say


scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking


carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,


hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable


expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,


to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that


the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is


seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper


House and the House of Lords performs it pretty


Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first


clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go


ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,


this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.


There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got


through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are


you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?


No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of


amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all


drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.


This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or


not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of


it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the


British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons


voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by


the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that


when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before


parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been


an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government


has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the


amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on


whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the


House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact


I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should


think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of


British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on


clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you


concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go


back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned


that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?


Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of


ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords


failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It


would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of


us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole


country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a


rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,


that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts


to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that


make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper


chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among


those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of


Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we


should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a


second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very


clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has


been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and


what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it


becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.


One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it


goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back


again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two


chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and


complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of


Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain


machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my


experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,


and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want


to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.


Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.


Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.


The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were


changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the


amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do


the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right


thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or


cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We


will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will


scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We


will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote


on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.


That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if


you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If


the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will


happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly


legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are


talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament


and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for


Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of


negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a


process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get


this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back


to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and


it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the


Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of


March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think


Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the


normal process. Unless the government get things right the


first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are


reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking


about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any


vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,


the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government


I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be


on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed


it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to


that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is


important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the


ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know


long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?


I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do


not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when


we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate


these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is


not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look


again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords


decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with


what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on


all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are


saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to


have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a


referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear


result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but


there are things which are not good about the process that we think


could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum


which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that


passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not


contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper


house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite


other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from


the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then


forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not


necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could


do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not


unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote


in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of


abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and


absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of


Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government


and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when


the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying


to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to


the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if


the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for


the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like


Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and


appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to


defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would


suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is


a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in


history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge


or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in


defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour


can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right


every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like


Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people


who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I


don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make


amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for


the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments


to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to


stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying


that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is


inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the


House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean


we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will


happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May


has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.


Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week


There are two by-elections round the corner -


one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central


where the former Shadow Education Secretary,


Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role


as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.


But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency


Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring


as their candidate in a by-election bout to see


At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here


But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,


because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.


70% of people voted to leave the European Union.


I'm the only candidate standing in this election


who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave


the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person


But he has had to fight off allegations


he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.


Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?


Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.


Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.


The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election


and focus on something which is banal nonsense.


And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.


He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series


of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words


I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery


on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that


I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.


It was done quite after the referendum result and it


was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months


after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.


Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,


she had failed to give any meaningful statement


about what Brexit meant other than bland statements


about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.


The context of it was it was out of frustration.


So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here


I never mean to insult anybody and you know,


I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member


of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect


the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.


I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.


While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.


I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority


is about the economy and to ensure we still have an


Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop


a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.


It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.


Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.


The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.


He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.


He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.


30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else


is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.


It is still something people care about.


We are only at the start of the Article 50 process


We are very a clear that we are standing up for those


who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs


Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.


Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.


I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.


We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this


And here is a full list of all the candidates standing


in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.


They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website


as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition


party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a


government. All the speculation is where the


opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an


equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held


traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by


the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of


these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the


leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.


Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the


years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like


Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,


Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are


more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more


diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent


evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up


the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope


lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would


suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear


too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it


still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is


a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,


over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I


mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they


had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what


they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over


the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an


era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a


regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,


but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do


split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is


still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and


Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently


that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the


current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be


a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current


Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about


Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think


that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the


mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour


candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is


is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has


done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember


speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after


the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and


this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one


particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to


play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win


it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has


made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,


are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were


saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the


moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to


overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has


been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,


but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why


I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.


At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these


by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for


Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been


in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.


We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of


this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial


It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.


Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics East.


Later in the programme, Council tax rises across


the board to help pay for social care.


And keep the wheels of local government turning.


We are at breaking point and I think at


this point in time I am not prepared to stop services.


With us this week, Sharon Taylor, Labour leader of


Stevenage Council, and Stuart Jackson,


the Conservative MP for


Peterborough, who works with David Davis, the secretary


enable us to leave the EU cleared its latest


stage in the Commons and


Rebels on the Labour side included Norwich MP Clive Lewis who has


resigned for his front bench role as the Shadow Business Secretary.


But for others the vote was the culmination


I spent many, many years pushing for this moment.


I've triggered a by-election and caused a bit of a


kerfuffle in my Clacton constituency, but ever


in Clacton and was elected as their member of Parliament, I said to my


constituents I would do anything I could to make sure Britain leaves


the EU and that is now going happen and we know that is going to happen


and I think it is great news and we will be a more prosperous,


I do think it is important the Labour Party


reflects both positions on


this in the country is divided and so in some ways the surprise


to me is more comment has not been made


about the fact the Conservatives are now being taken over by the very


few people who used to make John Major's


That is the real coup that has happened in British


Stewart Jackson, that is the real coup?


And Daniel Zeichner is slightly out of


order, if I'm honest, because you booted for


the EU referendum bill in


June 2015 which, not only enacted the referendum but promised, there


was an agreement six to one, in the Commons


we're going to vote against the enacting


of Article 50, I think is


Would you have voted, if it had gone the other way,


Would you have said, my constituents wanted to


It would have been difficult but if I


had accepted the central premise we are trusting the people and


Parliament had debated that and we had a referendum with a big


debate I think it would be disingenuous for


me then to have said you are wrong and I'm going to vote how I choose.


I think that this likely what Daniel is doing,


albeit he is a good and


diligent MP for Cambridge I think he is wrong on this issue.


When you look at the Labour Party from your


position rather than the House of Commons, how do you think


what has gone on there reflects on


Well, I campaigned tirelessly for Remain, as are sure you know,


and I think we now have a result which we have two act as it was.


At the same with the general election,


you take it on the chin if you don't win and I think there are some huge


I think there are some big threats as well and I think


it is right we take account of those, and for my


major international companies, I think we have got to look at what


the threats are to them and I'm sure we will be considering them but


You've stood at the last general election.


If you had been in the Commons you would not have gone


I can't tell you how many times I have thought about


It is an issue, and I totally respect Daniel's


view, and Clive, that this was a view they


a way that puts our country in jeopardy.


This is not the right term for our country


But of course Stevenage people voted, not overwhelmingly, but


decisively to leave the EU so I would have had a very difficult


I cannot tell you which way I would have gone.


I am a very principled individual and feel very


strongly that leaving the EU is the wrong


decision for our country at


Of course, it wasn't just the politicians


Seven months ago we met with people from Suffolk who were working


What do they think about the result now?


Andrew Sinclair has been back to Suffolk to find out.


There has always been a giant question mark outside


But last year there was no question over


where this college stood on


This is where the then Prime Minister came to make


This is a really massive decision for our country and is a huge


Johnson came by touting for votes it was the campus


provost no less who led the protests.


There are no reputable arguments on the Leave side and I


think all of the weight of evidence is clear


we have a better future as


Seven months on and some things have changed.


The college has now been designated a University and the


That side lost the argument and now what we have got to


do is get on and make the best of it in the sense we have got to do for


the communities we serve, the institutions we lead, we've got to


He says the referendum vote has already made


the University rethink its business plan and it is now looking at


links with bodies outside of the EU and will try to


recruit more students from the UK because the numbers coming from


Higher education is potentially one of the


most vulnerable sectors in the whole of the UK economy and it is a


We need freedom of intellectual movement and there


is also the capacity to share in joint research work


because if UK researchers get cut out of


international, particularly European, research work, there is no


So, is this a mixed container or all the same?


But here is someone who is not worrying about things going


Suffolk businessman Stephen became one of the main faces


I was rather chuffed to get that, I did


The owner of a storage and import business, he told


us this time last year he did not like the restrictions the EU put on


trade or the amount of red tape coming out of Brussels.


The issue with the EU we have is the


If you printed it out it would be about one foot tall.


There are multiple tariff headings for single items depending on what


Seven months on, he is pleased Article 50 will


soon be triggered but is frustrated about how long it is all taken.


In business, if you decide to do something to get on and do it.


This Government has taken seven months to


say what they could have said six months ago.


As someone who deals in trade how do you


feel about being out of the


customs union and not having free movement around Europe any


Out of the customs union will add a level of complication because


there will need to be paperwork between Europe and the UK.


I am but I say there will need to be paperwork but you never know what


This has been a very divisive result, hasn't


Yes, unfortunately, and I am not sure why it remains so


It is something a lot of people have been


asking for a long time and


we finally got the opportunity to have that vote.


You don't think the country has changed adversely?


So you haven't seen it change for the worse?


Well, I think there is such a degree of


uncertainty and think it is causing some problems for businesses across


the board, whether large corporate companies


like some of the ones in


That degree of uncertainty is causing


some problems and I think some of the people that voted Leave did


think it was going to happen instantly and I think what we need


to see is a clear vision and plan for the future of how, what this


country is going to look like as a country outside the EU and what


There are some possible opportunities in there, I am not


side, if I'm honest, we got a clear vision


about what the country would


look like on the other side of this referendum.


In the film we've heard, "Why didn't you do it six months ago?"


Well, for people not involved in politics and


Government it probably seems to have dragged


fact is if you are in a club you have to abide by the rules until


you leave and our international treaty obligations say we have to go


through the proper procedures, Article 50, it takes time, we now


have gone through Parliament and on to the High Court, Supreme Court,


back to Parliament with an emphatic majority and now the time has come


and by the end of March we will trigger


Article 50 and start the


You could have done it without the court cases though.


It took Gina Miller to take you through the courts to get


you back into Parliament and I think that was disgraceful.


I would like to thank Gina Miller for supposedly


It was trying to put the kibosh on Brexit.


She has done us a favour because she has strengthened


Parliamentary sovereignty and we are now closer to Article 50.


That's what a lot of it was about, parliamentary sovereignty?


It was, but we had to test in the court.


It wasn't about wasting taxpayer money,


we had to test the extent of Crown prerogative


and we now know that and


it has been established and we need to get on with the process.


One thing about the red tape, I know that is a catchall phrase but all


the paperwork he was saying he had to do


because we were in the EU but it will get just


To go back to higher education thing, science, innovation and


technology, higher education, we are a superpower across the world


and if we have a global outward looking


outward facing approach to trade in the Commonwealth,


as Sharon says we have a great future ahead of us


and we have to get it right and get through


those initial negotiations with the EU.


Look how long it took Canada to negotiate their deal.


We could end up with more paperwork and more


complexity than you would have had in the EU and I think that is a big


We are already compliant so it is not going to be a cliff edge,


Now to the question of council tax and how much we will


Our councils say they have never been under so


much pressure with funding cuts from central Government and an increase


in the national minimum wage and the growing


Most authorities still have to approve their proposals but three of


our councils are planning an increase of up to the 3% allowed by


Northamptonshire and Milton Keynes hope to charge just a little more to


help to pay for services but most of our councils are proposing an


increase of between 4.5 and 4.99% in total.


For an average band D property that would mean an extra


?23 34 in Cambridgeshire and ?59.69 in Milton Keynes.


Most other places are somewhere in between.


And I think at this point in time I am not


I am not prepared to close libraries and I'm


not prepared to reduce the


maintenance on highways, for example.


What I want to do is get Government to recognise this is a


serious issue and it needs to be dealt with.


So councils can put up their budget by 3% a cover social


care and an extra 2% if they want to raise extra money.


their budget this week and now let's talk to their leader, Colin


You only put yours up by 3% to cover social care.


Why did you not go further and raise more money?


We came in in 2005 after the Liberals


and Labour had put the council tax up by 13% and we said then that we


wanted to get control of finances and make it


run more efficiently and


in 2010 we delivered seven years of 0% which


got elected in 2013 and that we would do


Everybody is strapped for cash and you are going to cut


We are trying to do things differently.


We have done things with libraries where we no


There is an industrial province society which


So all the time what we're trying to do is find new ways


to do things so we do not cut the front line but we do cut.


There was talk of a ?30 million cut.


Basically, what we said is we have identified we need to make ?30


million worth of savings next year so we are going through every single


Basically, what we're trying to do is be more efficient in back office,


share services with other councils and also saying to our providers and


you will have to sharpen your pencils, you will have to be more


leaner and how you operate and how we go about our business.


More efficient in the back office, leaner, does that mean job losses?


How do you think that is going to go down with the people


We are the holders of the public purse and what we are


saying is we believe it is incredibly important we are as


We recognise in council tax it is people's hard earned money


and so we are very focused on making sure we


are as efficient as possible, yet at the same time what we have


announced is we will pay our residential care


providers 20% more on the base rate and our domiciliary care providers


So the 3% you are allowed to increase by to


cover social care, will that cover all of the problems you have?


Basically, that will just about pay for the national living wage.


All of us agree the national living wage is


an important thing for care workers and the lowest paid so what we have


said to the people of Suffolk is we want to apply that


and the bulk of that will go to front line care


workers and front line lowest paid workers so they get the national


Do you think the Government is listening when the


councils say they have a problem and social care?


You had David Finch on earlier and David and I sit with the


county council network and we both lobby very hard.


There is a conversation to be had about the


amount of money that physically flows, and the CCN is talking with


Government and saying when you look at an ageing population and rural


communities we need to see more funding for those.


It is about being more efficient and being firm with


our providers as to what we want and do not


want but there has to be a


Yet you could have put it up by another 2%.


It certainly is but we made a pledge.


Shannon Taylor, you understand these problems, is 3%


enough to cover any of the shortages we have?


There is a very serious shortage in social care funding and


we saw the issue with Surrey where David decided to announce he was


My view is David played some poker with the


Government and won that game of poker, but we should not be playing


And keeping on slicing little bits of funding from local Government's


core funding to fund social care is not going to work.


They are calling this a sweetheart deal in Surrey.


Do you know anybody else offered this kind of deal?


I do not know anybody else, perhaps David might


We certainly have not had one in Hertfordshire.


But we are certainly very keen to learn the details of


The important thing now is the details are published.


The Government is saying there is no deal and I am very suspicious about


that and think we need to see what has been agreed for Surrey and


overall the Local Government Association has been campaigning for


a long time to say to Government, this is not the way to do business


and we need to make sure there is adequate funding for social care.


We think there are still savings in the


system and that is the integration of health and social care.


I know there has been issues over that, but


prevention will save us money in the longer term and some of the


initiatives we have seen from local Government that help integrate


health and social care are making a real difference.


Stewart Jackson, Government has not perhaps come out


of this as well as it might have done.


I do not know the full details of the so-called text gate.


If there has been a sweetheart deal...


The moral of the story, make sure you


are sending a text to the right nick.


On a serious point there have been significant progress in things


like the better care fund and we are seeing some local


authorities getting better integration between


primary and acute care and adult social care but that is, as I keep


saying, a demographic time bomb and we need to move on from just


having one of social care precept into a


more sustainable funding formula and I think the Chancellor


Is it a way for a Government to behave, where,


rather than letting a council have a referendum in case it goes


against the way they wanted to be, but


actually get some kind of sweetheart deal?


That is not the way to run a Government, is it?


There is always the issue around localism, because


of the local authority has different demographic factors, different


budget issues, older people, younger people.


So they will always be council leaders saying we are a


There is no case for making Sunday special case.


One could argue for many years under Labour northern and Midland


authorities were made special cases. What do you think of them weren't


doing business this way? The most important thing is how we integrate


health and social care. That is a very political answer. On the


ground, the actual answer is there a need to be more money, closer


integration, health and social care must address this time bomb. We have


an ageing population and it changes how you must deliver health is the


system must change and those are far more fundamental argument that


issues about Surrey and individual issues about Surrey and individual


deals. Thank you being with us. Note for our round-up of the political


week in 60 seconds. Genome research is under


threat because of Brexit, A world-renowned institute told this


science and technology select


committee this week. There is concern over the status


of their EU workers. On the wider campus you are probably


touching 40% Of staff from the EU and the no longer feel welcome


and that is a threat. Free range egg producers


in Norfolk are worried they will lose their free


range status within weeks flu mean flocks must


be kept indoors. Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has


failed to give guarantees about the future of the


Cambridgeshire minor injuries unit at Ealing after it was


raised in the house. Does the secretary of state agree


with me that money spent in the Ealing Princess of Wales minor


injuries unit is money extremely And bad news for Colchester


MP Will Quince w ho And bad news for Colchester


MP Will Quince who failed to be picked to compete in


Britain's Got Talent, despite this While he was singing what did you


say? Shocking results. The science question, whether places


are here can continue to work well with Europe. What is your take? I


think collaboration is worldwide. Petition entities and academic


institutions are collaborating on things like Iran is must, Horizon


2020 and other scientific projects and it will continue -- things like


Erasmus. But things other countries do not want to be part of us if we


are not part of Europe. People will want to come here because of our


time zone, stability, labour market flexibility. And they will be


allowed to come? Of course. Sought to assure my colleagues part of the


European Space Agency project, who have just opened their fantastic


Mars rover visitor Centre, they have concerned when they put in bids for


European Space Agency funding that is the uncertainty around Brexit. We


have world beating pharmaceuticals in Stevenage. How would you reassure


them that everything will be rosy for them? We are not in Leave Remain


any more, we are all pulling in the same direction. There


After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,


MPs are having a little break this week as we head into


But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -


let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.


There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The


budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this


Government because it moves to the autumn.


That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably


about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,


then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next


President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour


leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of


March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew


Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to


block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised


if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination


to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think


one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor


the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you


think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it


would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name


the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a


good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics


for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in


our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can


find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to


time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change


politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger


than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal


Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would


suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does


get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay


that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have


another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary


of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the


table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have


done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew


Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back


but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal


Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not


the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the


European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know


because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch


taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at


the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a


play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first


in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish


Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that


will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.


You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a


national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing


France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A


reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in


the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected


elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal


views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them


to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le


Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the


future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are


were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some


problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in


the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a


number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of


people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She


thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't


got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to


play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,


not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how


much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting


on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from


European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see


what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do


know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get


through to the second round. He could come firth but the


centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would


say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to


saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le


Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,


it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as


in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had


got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has


transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the


French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April


23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he


was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,


this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership


election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,


but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this


parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear


message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you


are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media


performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,


things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win


2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their


offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking


well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might


like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going


to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he


the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership


is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide


to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is


not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be


the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas


would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if


we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general


election, which means you have another itration of this, another


five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour


moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general


election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for


the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn


going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment


being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated


the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.


Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had


their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest


they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any


indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is


now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what


he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another


attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question


enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a


daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about


winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of


two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself


will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half


hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some


people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another


three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it


lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be


under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this


level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the


idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the


people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and


they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most


of people were let alone most of the public.


Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership


potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the


Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That


is it. Now, there's no Daily


or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back


on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics


on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from


a very long shift at work... The staff are losing -


they're just giving in. Panorama goes undercover


to reveal the real cost OK, everyone, have you got


your bamboo sticks? If you just paint


what you want to paint, I've turned around,


my painting washes away. ..and take on


The Big Painting Challenge. Remember, you're not painting


a pond.


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