Browse content similar to 28/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi, | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people. | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
Are the politicians and the security services doing | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute" | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
for a new Commission to counter extremism. | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
We'll be talking to the Security Minister. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000 | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
Here in the East: and intelligence agencies. | :01:09. | :01:18. | |
We're in Clacton, where the first and only Ukip MP | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
We'll be meeting the candidates fighting to win the seat this time. | :01:22. | :01:22. | |
supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go, | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
the election campaign And some recent polls | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
in campaigning for And in the evening it will be | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time | :02:38. | :02:46. | |
special with Theresa May They won't debate each other, | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
but will take questions consecutively from members | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
of the audience. The final week of campaigning | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once | :02:57. | :03:04. | |
voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating, | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
polls today, which have the Conservative lead | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points. | :03:23. | :03:23. | |
So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
is the expert we always turn to at times like this, | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They | :03:30. | :03:42. | |
seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is | :04:27. | :04:36. | |
further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is, | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The | :05:06. | :05:13. | |
Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said, | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted, | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated? | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls | :06:40. | :06:47. | |
have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May, | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All | :08:48. | :08:54. | |
of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign. | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour | :09:04. | :09:05. | |
Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think, | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view. | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe. | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust. | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank | :10:55. | :10:55. | |
you very much. The election campaign was, | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
of course, put on hold following the terrorist | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has | :11:01. | :11:01. | |
resumed, it's hardly surprising that security | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at | :11:07. | :11:20. | |
short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security. | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources | :11:45. | :11:45. | |
to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds | :11:46. | :11:46. | |
is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a | :11:47. | :11:57. | |
thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not | :12:33. | :12:40. | |
helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border | :12:46. | :12:54. | |
guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given. | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour. | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism, | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
intelligence community and the security service, to the army and | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
the police, about what they think and how they think our communities | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want? | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
measures designed to tackle home-grown and international | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into | :15:23. | :15:31. | |
thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact? | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
he has been listening to the security services, what he said | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
about the international situation has also been said by the former | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
president of back -- President Barack Obama. | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
You say he will give the police and security services the resources and | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State | :16:38. | :16:47. | |
the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly | :17:29. | :17:36. | |
there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama, | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder, | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been | :18:03. | :18:15. | |
solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but | :18:16. | :18:17. | |
your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they | :18:18. | :18:19. | |
need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in | :18:23. | :18:31. | |
2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At | :18:32. | :18:40. | |
the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed | :18:55. | :19:02. | |
me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with | :19:06. | :19:19. | |
him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together | :19:39. | :19:40. | |
on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify | :19:46. | :19:47. | |
extremism, including the "non-violent" kind, | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning, | :19:51. | :19:52. | |
the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants | :19:53. | :19:54. | |
for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them | :19:55. | :19:56. | |
of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :19:57. | :20:10. | |
Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies. | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
international response. I think there are a range of issues. We | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
social media companies take down this material? We have an act that | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
have right now officials from my department over in the United States | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this, | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto | :23:21. | :23:28. | |
YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I | :23:29. | :23:37. | |
understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting | :23:38. | :23:39. | |
media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes... | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
is more about examining how much progress you can make. The | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being | :24:55. | :25:04. | |
monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers. | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size | :25:17. | :25:24. | |
of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7 | :25:44. | :25:53. | |
billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it, | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders, | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation. | :26:23. | :26:30. | |
Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box. | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they | :26:36. | :26:43. | |
are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5 | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation. | :27:09. | :27:17. | |
You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James | :28:23. | :28:34. | |
Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you. | :28:35. | :28:36. | |
The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns | :28:45. | :28:46. | |
about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy. | :28:47. | :28:48. | |
In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
investigating radicalisation in the UK. | :28:52. | :28:52. | |
Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society, | :28:53. | :28:54. | |
and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire. | :28:58. | :28:58. | |
We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray. | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance, | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism - | :29:11. | :29:28. | |
Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
the sources of the problem, and polite society | :29:32. | :29:33. | |
This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi. | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people, | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
one for each year of life this country had given him. | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
We need to think far more deeply about all this. | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam. | :29:59. | :30:05. | |
Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this? | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible. | :30:10. | :30:17. | |
The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities. | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill, | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states, | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country. | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
It is high time we became serious too. | :30:35. | :30:44. | |
Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country. | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it? | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself | :31:13. | :31:14. | |
experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims. | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities, | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
I've seen politicians and charities partner | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
with and support some of these voices and groups. | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies | :31:59. | :32:06. | |
Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual. | :32:07. | :32:15. | |
We must counter those who seek to divide us. | :32:16. | :32:24. | |
Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book, | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said, | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting? | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in | :33:18. | :33:26. | |
the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations, | :33:49. | :33:50. | |
Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain? | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that. | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they | :36:07. | :36:14. | |
could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that. | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of | :36:35. | :36:36. | |
thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is | :36:37. | :36:44. | |
freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
like Salford University you should be held responsible for not | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it | :38:06. | :38:13. | |
doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
get real about that. Thank you very much. | :38:52. | :38:52. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :38:53. | :38:54. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
Hello. minutes, the Week Ahead. | :38:58. | :39:11. | |
Welcome to Sunday Politics East. I'm Stewart White. | :39:12. | :39:12. | |
when he became the first Ukip MP to win a seat at an election. | :39:13. | :39:33. | |
Now he's standing down, saying "job done" on leaving the EU. | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
So who will be the next MP for Clacton? | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
most of the candidates for the main parties. | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
Later in the programme, we'll be talking about immigration. | :39:42. | :39:43. | |
There are quite a few, believe it or not, | :39:44. | :39:45. | |
when you are walking through the town, listening | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
to people talk, there is a lot of foreign accents, | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
and Robin Tillbrook for the English Democrats, | :39:51. | :40:15. | |
a party which advocates English independence. | :40:16. | :40:24. | |
We had been expecting David grist for the Liberal Democrats because of | :40:25. | :40:33. | |
problems with his car. Job done, said the local MP is far from job | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
done both in terms of Brexit and other needs in the area. It is | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
offensive to state job done when there is so much that he's done. In | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
terms of Brexit, we need to retain the benefits of the single market | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
and trade within the EU, particularly protecting farmers and | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
their exploits into the EU markets. And make sure they are not undercut | :41:04. | :41:10. | |
by Brexit being an excuse to import poor quality. And free movement | :41:11. | :41:22. | |
following the EU and control immigration making sure we only have | :41:23. | :41:33. | |
positive immigration. I have very rarely agreed with Douglas Carswell. | :41:34. | :41:44. | |
We have two Ukip MPs. He was elected, the other. The job is far | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
from done. We are concerned about wine Theresa May has called this | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
election at this point, increasing her majority in the House of | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
Commons. She has caught the other parties out in this regard. We do | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
not forget that Theresa May campaign for remain in the referendum. | :42:03. | :42:10. | |
Concerned by surveys, for example by Sky News, which showed a box of the | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
new Tory intake are soft when it comes to the terms of the divorce. | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
They are not bothered about 50 billion in a divorce bill, they will | :42:21. | :42:27. | |
not protect fishing. A lot of the Conservative candidates are soft? I | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
would not that. I am a above all else. We have to get this -- a | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
democrat above all else. We must not muck around, get out straightaway. | :42:41. | :42:48. | |
The most important thing in my mind is that we must not think or dream | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
of going for a second referendum. They can be divisive and another | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
would divide us even further. We must pull together and get out of | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
the EU and give Theresa May the strongest mandate possible. A hard | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
Brexit is potentially an enormous environmental disaster for the UK | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
because Europe has underwritten things like the clean air act, clean | :43:13. | :43:20. | |
beaches, clean water. The subsidies they get your farmers where and at | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
having a countryside that everyone wants with wildlife, which we want | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
to see. If all those things go down the tubes when we leave the EU, it | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
would be a disaster. A job not done far enough? Not finished yet. There | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
is all the negotiations to take place. Those negotiations need to be | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
done with a view to protecting England's interest. One of the | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
problems we have got within the Establishment at the moment is that | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
England is barely recognised. What's Theresa May promised to do as part | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
of the negotiations was to talk to the first ministers of Scotland, | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland 's and include them in the negotiations, | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
but nothing for England at all. And that is the only part of the United | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
Kingdom directly ruled by the British Government. We have causes | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
to worry about whether England's images will be taken into account. | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
-- England's views. New figures out this week | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
show that immigration is falling. 3.6% of population | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
was born in the EU, well below the national | :44:33. | :44:34. | |
average of 5.5%. A few miles up the road | :44:35. | :44:36. | |
in Colchester, 6.6% of the population | :44:37. | :44:38. | |
comes from the EU. were a key factor in | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
the referendum vote last year. Let's start off with just a swinging | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
at the arms and shoulders. It's time to be put | :44:47. | :45:03. | |
through our political paces. That is the movement | :45:04. | :45:05. | |
unique for walking. In England's oldest town, | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
all walks of life meet weekly When the people head | :45:09. | :45:16. | |
to the polls in Colchester, You would have thought | :45:17. | :45:32. | |
that the Conservatives would have taken the seat off | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
the Liberal Democrats The burning issue here, other | :45:37. | :45:38. | |
than my quads right now, is Brexit. Walking towards an election, | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
what is the most important thing Well, there are lots of things. | :45:46. | :45:47. | |
I voted Brexit. So that would be one | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
of the main things. But to be honest, I don't trust | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
Theresa May to deliver Really? | :45:58. | :45:59. | |
No. Roger also voted for Brexit, as most | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
of the Colchester Borough did. He is most concerned | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
about immigration. I think there has | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
to be a limit on it. As a country, when we look | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
at housing and various things, we are struggling to actually | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
have the right amount. Even in liberal small | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
C Conservative Colchester, New figures out last week, though, | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
showed the rise of EU We have seen the overall | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
net migration figure That is a difference | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
between the number of people coming in to the country | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
and the number leaving. That suggests that Britain is | :46:44. | :46:45. | |
less attractive to people In particular, there has been a | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
drop in immigration from Europe, Here in Clacton, people | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
want to see immigration Since the late 1990s, | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
immigration began to come up and get It is something of a big concern | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
for the people of Clacton. When the Conservatives | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
got into government, they got in with a pledge to bring | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
it back down to the level That is something they have not | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
been able to achieve There are over 700,000 people | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
in the East who were born abroad. Immigration figures show that tens | :47:18. | :47:24. | |
of thousands of people have come to our region every | :47:25. | :47:38. | |
year this decade. The most recent figure is a | :47:39. | :47:40. | |
net 36,000 people coming Janet and Brian are regulars at | :47:41. | :47:42. | |
the Clacton pavilion bowling alley. Immigration numbers | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
are on their minds when it comes With the immigration, | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
someone has got to stop the amount coming in here, | :47:50. | :47:57. | |
or they have to be If Labour get in, they | :47:58. | :47:59. | |
are more or less going In this area, it doesn't | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
really affect us so much Clacton was a pretty safe and solid | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
Conservative seat until 1997. In a wave of support | :48:09. | :48:18. | |
for New Labour, Clacton went red. It wasn't until 2005 that | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
Douglas Carswell took the seat Along came Ukip and Carswell stuck | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
it to his party and defected, winning the seat for the purple | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
party in 2014 and 2015. The dog days of the election | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
campaign idea or stuck in the final straight, | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
the Conservatives hope they can take back Clacton and make the political | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
map of the East entirely blue. Let us have a look at what the | :48:44. | :49:04. | |
parties are saying in their manifestos about immigration. | :49:05. | :49:06. | |
The Conservatives say they will reduce net immigration... | :49:07. | :49:08. | |
Labour accepts that freedom of movement | :49:09. | :49:09. | |
will end when Britain leaves the EU and will... | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
..in areas where immigration has placed a strain on | :49:17. | :49:18. | |
The Liberal Democrats also supports freedom of | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
movement between the UK and EU and will... | :49:23. | :49:30. | |
..using an Australian-style points system and | :49:31. | :49:38. | |
The Conservatives want to reduce annual net migration below 100,000? | :49:39. | :50:06. | |
The flood were opens under Tony Blair. In the Conservative Party... | :50:07. | :50:13. | |
There was an enormous amount of damage to be repaired and we have | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
been trying to do that. I have said it for a long period of time, it | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
needs to be controlled, control our borders properly, secure and get a | :50:24. | :50:32. | |
grip. We are in danger, only six seats away, from Jeremy Corbyn | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
taking the position of Prime Minister. We must not let that | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
happen. If he got in, and open border. Absolutely not. The Labour | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
manifesto says no free movement, no open borders. No cap on immigration, | :50:48. | :51:00. | |
targets are bogus. What is the difference between not having a | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
target and open doors? We are going to not have opened doors in the | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
sense we will control immigration, restructure our immigration system | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
so that we put in place controls that may have the impact of reducing | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
the number of immigration. We are not going to say categorically we | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
will get it to the tens of thousands if that is what the conservative | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
placed in 2010, 2015, and in the last two years under Theresa May's | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
watch, immigration reached high numbers. It is down at the moment? | :51:35. | :51:46. | |
It is down at the moment. You want the Australian... The Australians | :51:47. | :52:02. | |
like it very much. They do. Previous to Theresa May, under John Major, | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
they got rid of controls. 20 years ago, the problem has been rising. We | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
want to go back to the 50,000 per year coming in as then. Not quite | :52:14. | :52:21. | |
one in one house. The nation is in debt, at least when John Major left | :52:22. | :52:29. | |
office the balance in the budget was at a reasonable level. 5.9 billion | :52:30. | :52:40. | |
it will cost? That is peanuts. There is an organisation who have said | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
that, since the doors open to Eastern Europe, a gain of about ?9 | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
billion. In reality, that is ?1 per person per head for Britain. To be | :52:53. | :53:02. | |
quite honest, I would rather pay ?1 per week for a seat into London on | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
the train. That is not down to that. We have unemployment at 3.9% in the | :53:10. | :53:17. | |
east. If you ask economists, they were Seiji percent is balanced | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
unemployment. That is zero an appointment because most economists | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
would agree that. -- zero unemployment. We have 25% of our | :53:28. | :53:35. | |
doctors coming from other countries in this country. Over 3000 nurses | :53:36. | :53:44. | |
vacancies. If he had the points-based system, the doctors | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
would be allowed to stop one in, one out basis but will they ask people | :53:50. | :54:05. | |
to volunteer to leave? We need unskilled labour in the farms in the | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
eaves. That depresses the wages of people born here. It is not fine for | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
the people without skills who already live here. We need to ensure | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
we have the people we need and we want in this country. And get rid of | :54:23. | :54:32. | |
those we do not need and want. The immigration system has been broken | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
for a long time. No serious effort to control immigration. Huge numbers | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
coming in under Tony Blair, perhaps over 10 million people. A new | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
Greater London has to be built to house these people. Far from having | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
a sustainable system, we have a system completely out of control. | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
Theresa May in the last year of her time as head secretary N... Would | :54:58. | :55:05. | |
you have no migration at all? We you have no migration at all? We | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
think that mass uncontrolled immigration should be stopped. We | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
are not in favour of a population replacement policy with one in, one | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
out. We think what should be happening is a focus on English | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
interests, and if you think about it, the point made about doctors and | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
nurses, the reason why the British nurses, the reason why the British | :55:30. | :55:36. | |
Government has been having them come in from abroad is because they | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
failed to train enough of our own people. Is it possible that the | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
reduction in immigration you talk about is a reflection of EU citizens | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
given uncertain about living here because of the ramifications of the | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
EU referendum? Under Theresa May's watch, 365,000, a record high | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
immigration. Not saying we are going to have open borders, we are not, | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
reform the immigration system, control borders, crackdown on | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
unscrupulous employers with overseas recruitment policies. Are you saying | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
those palmers -- farmers are unscrupulous? Everyone must pay | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
minimum wage. We will not allow any overseas only recruitment. The | :56:24. | :56:30. | |
people who bring people over two packer vegetables are unscrupulous? | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
If you are undercutting wages and not paying minimum wage... I do not | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
think we should have overseas only recruitment. They cannot get English | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
people to get their vegetables baked. There is a simple reason, | :56:46. | :56:53. | |
there is not the population in rural areas and English people do not want | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
to live on the fourth of the season so it makes sense to bring people | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
in. Another point -- just for the season. Our working population is | :57:03. | :57:11. | |
falling and following so we do not have a working population to | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
support... You are picking areas people are prepared to work for the | :57:18. | :57:19. | |
wages, and they are perhaps robbing wages, and they are perhaps robbing | :57:20. | :57:27. | |
those jobs of people born here. We certainly don't agree with low | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
wages. We should enforce the minimum wage, rate it, a Green Party policy | :57:33. | :57:34. | |
to have a Living Wage. Introduced by to have a Living Wage. Introduced by | :57:35. | :57:45. | |
the Conservative Party. Before the doors open for immigration, we still | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
got our fruit and vegetables baked in this country. The farmers are not | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
being wicked, they are being rational. We have to move on. There | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
are some independents standing. First and foremost, I am | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
going to be the only honest MP If I do not know the answer, | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
I will tell you. In Westminster, one of my main | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
focuses is policing and crime. The judicial system now needs to be | :58:11. | :58:12. | |
having mandatory sentences We are seeing so many police | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
operate and arrest people, get them in the cells, | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
all the money, all the work, straight | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
to the courts - what happens? We now have to get the judicial | :58:26. | :58:27. | |
system working alongside the police. I have spent the last four | :58:28. | :58:36. | |
years studying my degree I want to offer that | :58:37. | :58:38. | |
to the Government and make sure that the young people | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
are being represented because it is about the huge | :58:43. | :58:44. | |
decisions made about their future, and about where they are going | :58:45. | :58:46. | |
to go, and industry in this country. We need to protect that | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
and make sure we can get Now for our round-up | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
of the political week in 60 Seconds The week began with the launch | :58:53. | :59:02. | |
of the Green Party manifesto. You cannot say I will tackle air | :59:03. | :59:12. | |
pollution and expand roads and expand airports - | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
you have to make the right choices Conservatives carried on sending big | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
names to North Norfolk, where they are fighting to take | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
the seat from the Lib Dems. Security in this region was stepped | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
up following the Manchester bombing, and the general election | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
campaign was suspended. Vigils were held across the East | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
in memory of the 22 people who died. The campaign resumed with the Ukip | :59:38. | :59:43. | |
manifesto launch when I irate MEP Stuart Agnew rallied | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
against journalists. But the party continues | :59:49. | :59:54. | |
to maintain that it has real Are you honestly helpful of keeping | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
Clacton, winning any But really, realistically, | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
it is not likely, is it? Thank you very much. | :00:03. | :00:10. | |
Thank you! Where the party fight to stop | :00:11. | :00:34. | |
campaigning this week? The trouble is, with this great tragedy, it is | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
very easy to feel emotional about it. And react in that way. The fact | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
of the matter is that the reason why we had this tragedy does come back | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
to a question we were discussing earlier about immigration and lack | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
of control of it. It was the right call. Who has it helped? Have any of | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
the parties gained? I do not think so. Mutual respect, for all those | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
suffering and affected. It was the right call to have the brief pause. | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
We were happy to delay the launch because it was right and proper. It | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
was only until Thursday that much of the most important thing is that we | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
cannot allow people to interrupt the process of our democracy. We cannot | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
let people turn on our minorities because that is giving the | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
terrorists exactly what they want. It was the most shocking of events | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
and I think we all agree that we are horrified by that. We should never | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
let that happen in this country and we need to catch those planning this | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
sort of thing. On the day we suspended campaigning, I thought it | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
was the right thing to do. Thank you for being here. | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
we'll be back next week in the final week of the campaign. | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership. | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election | :02:05. | :02:19. | |
campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here. | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope, | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack | :03:16. | :03:25. | |
just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister | :03:26. | :03:27. | |
has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister, | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic | :03:34. | :03:41. | |
attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media. | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree | :05:07. | :05:14. | |
or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
time to review the level of argument? This is a political | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem, | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst. | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power | :06:07. | :06:15. | |
Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in | :07:59. | :08:08. | |
terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65 | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks. | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead. | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge. | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr. | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations. | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
We are making good progress with the companies who put in place | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago. | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer, | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I | :11:34. | :11:45. | |
did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it | :11:50. | :12:02. | |
seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye. | :13:35. | :14:09. | |
As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them | :14:10. | :14:11. | |
the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews. | :14:12. | :14:21. | |
One minute to get the food on the plate. | :14:22. | :14:22. | |
..team them up with a Michelin starred chef, | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
putting their reputation on the line. | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
..which team will have the recipe for success? | :14:35. | :14:37. |