28/05/2017 Sunday Politics East


28/05/2017

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LineFromTo

Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,

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on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.

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Are the politicians and the security services doing

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Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"

:00:50.:00:55.

in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans

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for a new Commission to counter extremism.

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We'll be talking to the Security Minister.

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Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000

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Here in the East: and intelligence agencies.

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We're in Clacton, where the first and only Ukip MP

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We'll be meeting the candidates fighting to win the seat this time.

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supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering

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the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this

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morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia

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Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts

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on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,

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the election campaign And some recent polls

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suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look

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at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over

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the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third

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of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's

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Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be

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enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break

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in campaigning for And in the evening it will be

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the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP

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publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do

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so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's

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Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main

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parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim

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Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time

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special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,

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but will take questions consecutively from members

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of the audience. The final week of campaigning

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is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days

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of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once

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voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early

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in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always

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means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,

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if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion

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polls today, which have the Conservative lead

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over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.

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So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice

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is the expert we always turn to at times like this,

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and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They

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seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very

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consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare

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them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto

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launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two

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points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear

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consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this

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matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads

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are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the

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landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in

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trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is

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further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that

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young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote

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for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out

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to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls

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that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the

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Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the

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Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,

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they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The

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Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you

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look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has

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been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now

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average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of

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the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is

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I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour

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manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,

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we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the

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fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,

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together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never

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voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.

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What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather

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has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?

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This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces

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the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at

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which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to

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correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support

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a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't

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assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were

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wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls

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have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they

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are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so

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far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And

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subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low

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initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of

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movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more

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in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to

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the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be

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at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by

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Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might

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not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a

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good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was

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a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the

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Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby

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was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the

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candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the

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moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been

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a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,

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she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone

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up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do

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something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy

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like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the

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reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some

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momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the

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focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were

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stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically

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cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All

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of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is

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a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.

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That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour

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Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the

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other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the

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trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this

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narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning

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resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,

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Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in

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Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them

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safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon

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for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the

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very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of

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Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.

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You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid

:10:00.:10:05.

for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It

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is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in

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them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.

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The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about

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like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite

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while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about

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public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I

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don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We

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had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was

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already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.

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The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually

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care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank

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you very much. The election campaign was,

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of course, put on hold following the terrorist

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attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has

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resumed, it's hardly surprising that security

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is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it

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would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at

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short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.

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It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very

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dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community

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response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police

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he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I

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would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources

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to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds

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is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a

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thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is

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in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow

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Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any

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more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of

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the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also

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10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by

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20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police

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officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison

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officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not

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helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra

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firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border

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guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not

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as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.

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If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy

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Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.

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If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why

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aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more

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police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing

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anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We

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will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very

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clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop

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at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be

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giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you

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will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need

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to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are

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saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger

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caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,

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not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from

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anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of

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powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to

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listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the

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intelligence community and the security service, to the army and

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the police, about what they think and how they think our communities

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could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police

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by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said

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you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured

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and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services

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and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?

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Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against

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measures designed to tackle home-grown and international

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terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week

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made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant

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those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into

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thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and

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investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?

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Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

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many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it

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would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a

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very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce

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hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which

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can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said

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earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that

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he has been listening to the security services, what he said

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about the international situation has also been said by the former

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head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as

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president of back -- President Barack Obama.

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You say he will give the police and security services the resources and

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powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy

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Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State

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the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad

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idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

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others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm

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interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to

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be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in

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favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on

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suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex

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situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it

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was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation

:17:26.:17:28.

through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly

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there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,

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Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other

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Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this

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week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We

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have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,

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but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is

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there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been

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solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but

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your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they

:18:18.:18:19.

need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will

:18:20.:18:22.

want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in

:18:23.:18:31.

2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At

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the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the

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one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What

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he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism

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and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed

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me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy

:19:03.:19:05.

Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with

:19:06.:19:19.

him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but

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what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat

:19:24.:19:27.

down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he

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didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think

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that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These

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issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together

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on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have

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promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify

:19:46.:19:47.

extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,

:19:48.:19:50.

and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,

:19:51.:19:52.

the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants

:19:53.:19:54.

for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them

:19:55.:19:56.

of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:19:57.:20:10.

Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in

:20:11.:20:13.

their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do

:20:14.:20:19.

to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans

:20:20.:20:23.

have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but

:20:24.:20:28.

there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.

:20:29.:20:34.

Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did

:20:35.:20:37.

say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do

:20:38.:20:42.

internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and

:20:43.:20:46.

international response. I think there are a range of issues. We

:20:47.:20:52.

could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words

:20:53.:20:57.

are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made

:20:58.:21:01.

these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do

:21:02.:21:07.

the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to

:21:08.:21:11.

social media companies take down this material? We have an act that

:21:12.:21:16.

was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one

:21:17.:21:21.

of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We

:21:22.:21:28.

have right now officials from my department over in the United States

:21:29.:21:31.

with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that

:21:32.:21:36.

they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have

:21:37.:21:42.

the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that

:21:43.:21:49.

maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies

:21:50.:21:52.

devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see

:21:53.:21:56.

them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a

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few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted

:22:02.:22:06.

a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve

:22:07.:22:12.

it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime

:22:13.:22:15.

Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but

:22:16.:22:19.

to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People

:22:20.:22:23.

will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is

:22:24.:22:26.

unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,

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which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote

:22:33.:22:37.

you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the

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picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was

:22:43.:22:47.

killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be

:22:48.:22:51.

demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the

:22:52.:22:56.

context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces

:22:57.:23:03.

we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been

:23:04.:23:07.

extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way

:23:08.:23:10.

these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were

:23:11.:23:16.

watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to

:23:17.:23:20.

look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto

:23:21.:23:28.

YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I

:23:29.:23:37.

understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting

:23:38.:23:39.

media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...

:23:40.:23:47.

You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young

:23:48.:23:51.

people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I

:23:52.:23:58.

invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on

:23:59.:24:02.

Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos

:24:03.:24:07.

or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as

:24:08.:24:11.

long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to

:24:12.:24:15.

be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying

:24:16.:24:20.

for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance

:24:21.:24:25.

that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people

:24:26.:24:31.

don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians

:24:32.:24:35.

and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be

:24:36.:24:39.

done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It

:24:40.:24:44.

is more about examining how much progress you can make. The

:24:45.:24:49.

Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers

:24:50.:24:54.

in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being

:24:55.:25:04.

monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.

:25:05.:25:10.

Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it

:25:11.:25:13.

is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is

:25:14.:25:16.

important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size

:25:17.:25:24.

of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms

:25:25.:25:28.

not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we

:25:29.:25:33.

have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our

:25:34.:25:40.

manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government

:25:41.:25:43.

spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7

:25:44.:25:53.

billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them

:25:54.:26:00.

on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,

:26:01.:26:05.

and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have

:26:06.:26:10.

quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are

:26:11.:26:15.

using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,

:26:16.:26:22.

but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.

:26:23.:26:30.

Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.

:26:31.:26:35.

Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they

:26:36.:26:43.

are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive

:26:44.:26:48.

issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and

:26:49.:26:51.

at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't

:26:52.:26:57.

come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5

:26:58.:27:02.

and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor

:27:03.:27:08.

them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.

:27:09.:27:17.

You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if

:27:18.:27:20.

they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with

:27:21.:27:26.

the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance

:27:27.:27:31.

between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there

:27:32.:27:34.

is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all

:27:35.:27:42.

sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from

:27:43.:27:49.

where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The

:27:50.:27:54.

control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because

:27:55.:27:58.

one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to

:27:59.:28:02.

satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is

:28:03.:28:07.

right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we

:28:08.:28:11.

won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no

:28:12.:28:16.

point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't

:28:17.:28:22.

give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James

:28:23.:28:34.

Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.

:28:35.:28:36.

The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old

:28:37.:28:44.

Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns

:28:45.:28:46.

about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.

:28:47.:28:48.

In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers

:28:49.:28:51.

investigating radicalisation in the UK.

:28:52.:28:52.

Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,

:28:53.:28:54.

and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO

:28:55.:28:57.

of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.

:28:58.:28:58.

We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem

:28:59.:29:01.

of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.

:29:02.:29:04.

Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,

:29:05.:29:10.

We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -

:29:11.:29:28.

Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify

:29:29.:29:31.

the sources of the problem, and polite society

:29:32.:29:33.

This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.

:29:34.:29:40.

Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,

:29:41.:29:44.

one for each year of life this country had given him.

:29:45.:29:50.

We need to think far more deeply about all this.

:29:51.:29:54.

Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem

:29:55.:29:58.

France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.

:29:59.:30:05.

Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?

:30:06.:30:09.

For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.

:30:10.:30:17.

The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.

:30:18.:30:21.

Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,

:30:22.:30:24.

and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,

:30:25.:30:29.

even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.

:30:30.:30:34.

It is high time we became serious too.

:30:35.:30:44.

Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.

:30:45.:30:52.

We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?

:30:53.:30:59.

Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations

:31:00.:31:03.

who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even

:31:04.:31:07.

violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out

:31:08.:31:12.

of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself

:31:13.:31:14.

experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.

:31:15.:31:18.

These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,

:31:19.:31:26.

hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers

:31:27.:31:30.

Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic

:31:31.:31:34.

anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition

:31:35.:31:39.

I've seen politicians and charities partner

:31:40.:31:44.

with and support some of these voices and groups.

:31:45.:31:49.

Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far

:31:50.:31:55.

right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do

:31:56.:31:58.

But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies

:31:59.:32:06.

Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.

:32:07.:32:15.

We must counter those who seek to divide us.

:32:16.:32:24.

Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,

:32:25.:32:31.

strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,

:32:32.:32:37.

let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The

:32:38.:32:41.

young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at

:32:42.:32:45.

Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its

:32:46.:32:51.

leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of

:32:52.:32:54.

the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they

:32:55.:32:59.

are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was

:33:00.:33:05.

against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just

:33:06.:33:10.

one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?

:33:11.:33:17.

Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in

:33:18.:33:26.

the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting

:33:27.:33:33.

Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide

:33:34.:33:38.

bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to

:33:39.:33:41.

that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been

:33:42.:33:48.

politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,

:33:49.:33:50.

Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and

:33:51.:33:56.

countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist

:33:57.:34:02.

-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If

:34:03.:34:07.

Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look

:34:08.:34:11.

forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join

:34:12.:34:15.

Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist

:34:16.:34:18.

offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got

:34:19.:34:22.

worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your

:34:23.:34:25.

argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of

:34:26.:34:28.

Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?

:34:29.:34:33.

The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to

:34:34.:34:38.

absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me

:34:39.:34:44.

finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It

:34:45.:34:47.

has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth

:34:48.:34:51.

continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically

:34:52.:34:57.

correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to

:34:58.:35:01.

deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in

:35:02.:35:04.

Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a

:35:05.:35:09.

crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are

:35:10.:35:13.

competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are

:35:14.:35:16.

seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians

:35:17.:35:22.

are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims

:35:23.:35:26.

should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.

:35:27.:35:32.

There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to

:35:33.:35:38.

take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many

:35:39.:35:41.

reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on

:35:42.:35:46.

the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in

:35:47.:35:50.

this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A

:35:51.:35:56.

poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would

:35:57.:35:59.

not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to

:36:00.:36:06.

the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they

:36:07.:36:14.

could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.

:36:15.:36:18.

What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current

:36:19.:36:24.

understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university

:36:25.:36:27.

campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material

:36:28.:36:34.

that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of

:36:35.:36:36.

thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is

:36:37.:36:44.

freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is

:36:45.:36:48.

through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights

:36:49.:36:54.

to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a

:36:55.:37:00.

gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many

:37:01.:37:05.

people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That

:37:06.:37:11.

is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights

:37:12.:37:17.

point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not

:37:18.:37:20.

suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people

:37:21.:37:27.

don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be

:37:28.:37:33.

opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human

:37:34.:37:39.

rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution

:37:40.:37:43.

like Salford University you should be held responsible for not

:37:44.:37:45.

cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge

:37:46.:37:50.

extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually

:37:51.:37:57.

counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not

:37:58.:38:01.

about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most

:38:02.:38:05.

effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it

:38:06.:38:13.

doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking

:38:14.:38:18.

place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims

:38:19.:38:22.

in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are

:38:23.:38:27.

homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend

:38:28.:38:30.

among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea

:38:31.:38:35.

that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is

:38:36.:38:40.

also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are

:38:41.:38:44.

defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a

:38:45.:38:48.

better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to

:38:49.:38:51.

get real about that. Thank you very much.

:38:52.:38:52.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:53.:38:54.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:55.:38:57.

Hello. minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:58.:39:11.

Welcome to Sunday Politics East. I'm Stewart White.

:39:12.:39:12.

when he became the first Ukip MP to win a seat at an election.

:39:13.:39:33.

Now he's standing down, saying "job done" on leaving the EU.

:39:34.:39:36.

So who will be the next MP for Clacton?

:39:37.:39:38.

most of the candidates for the main parties.

:39:39.:39:41.

Later in the programme, we'll be talking about immigration.

:39:42.:39:43.

There are quite a few, believe it or not,

:39:44.:39:45.

when you are walking through the town, listening

:39:46.:39:47.

to people talk, there is a lot of foreign accents,

:39:48.:39:50.

and Robin Tillbrook for the English Democrats,

:39:51.:40:15.

a party which advocates English independence.

:40:16.:40:24.

We had been expecting David grist for the Liberal Democrats because of

:40:25.:40:33.

problems with his car. Job done, said the local MP is far from job

:40:34.:40:41.

done both in terms of Brexit and other needs in the area. It is

:40:42.:40:44.

offensive to state job done when there is so much that he's done. In

:40:45.:40:51.

terms of Brexit, we need to retain the benefits of the single market

:40:52.:40:56.

and trade within the EU, particularly protecting farmers and

:40:57.:41:03.

their exploits into the EU markets. And make sure they are not undercut

:41:04.:41:10.

by Brexit being an excuse to import poor quality. And free movement

:41:11.:41:22.

following the EU and control immigration making sure we only have

:41:23.:41:33.

positive immigration. I have very rarely agreed with Douglas Carswell.

:41:34.:41:44.

We have two Ukip MPs. He was elected, the other. The job is far

:41:45.:41:48.

from done. We are concerned about wine Theresa May has called this

:41:49.:41:53.

election at this point, increasing her majority in the House of

:41:54.:41:58.

Commons. She has caught the other parties out in this regard. We do

:41:59.:42:02.

not forget that Theresa May campaign for remain in the referendum.

:42:03.:42:10.

Concerned by surveys, for example by Sky News, which showed a box of the

:42:11.:42:14.

new Tory intake are soft when it comes to the terms of the divorce.

:42:15.:42:20.

They are not bothered about 50 billion in a divorce bill, they will

:42:21.:42:27.

not protect fishing. A lot of the Conservative candidates are soft? I

:42:28.:42:33.

would not that. I am a above all else. We have to get this -- a

:42:34.:42:40.

democrat above all else. We must not muck around, get out straightaway.

:42:41.:42:48.

The most important thing in my mind is that we must not think or dream

:42:49.:42:52.

of going for a second referendum. They can be divisive and another

:42:53.:42:57.

would divide us even further. We must pull together and get out of

:42:58.:43:01.

the EU and give Theresa May the strongest mandate possible. A hard

:43:02.:43:08.

Brexit is potentially an enormous environmental disaster for the UK

:43:09.:43:12.

because Europe has underwritten things like the clean air act, clean

:43:13.:43:20.

beaches, clean water. The subsidies they get your farmers where and at

:43:21.:43:25.

having a countryside that everyone wants with wildlife, which we want

:43:26.:43:30.

to see. If all those things go down the tubes when we leave the EU, it

:43:31.:43:36.

would be a disaster. A job not done far enough? Not finished yet. There

:43:37.:43:42.

is all the negotiations to take place. Those negotiations need to be

:43:43.:43:48.

done with a view to protecting England's interest. One of the

:43:49.:43:53.

problems we have got within the Establishment at the moment is that

:43:54.:43:58.

England is barely recognised. What's Theresa May promised to do as part

:43:59.:44:03.

of the negotiations was to talk to the first ministers of Scotland,

:44:04.:44:06.

Wales and Northern Ireland 's and include them in the negotiations,

:44:07.:44:11.

but nothing for England at all. And that is the only part of the United

:44:12.:44:16.

Kingdom directly ruled by the British Government. We have causes

:44:17.:44:20.

to worry about whether England's images will be taken into account.

:44:21.:44:26.

-- England's views. New figures out this week

:44:27.:44:29.

show that immigration is falling. 3.6% of population

:44:30.:44:32.

was born in the EU, well below the national

:44:33.:44:34.

average of 5.5%. A few miles up the road

:44:35.:44:36.

in Colchester, 6.6% of the population

:44:37.:44:38.

comes from the EU. were a key factor in

:44:39.:44:42.

the referendum vote last year. Let's start off with just a swinging

:44:43.:44:46.

at the arms and shoulders. It's time to be put

:44:47.:45:03.

through our political paces. That is the movement

:45:04.:45:05.

unique for walking. In England's oldest town,

:45:06.:45:08.

all walks of life meet weekly When the people head

:45:09.:45:16.

to the polls in Colchester, You would have thought

:45:17.:45:32.

that the Conservatives would have taken the seat off

:45:33.:45:36.

the Liberal Democrats The burning issue here, other

:45:37.:45:38.

than my quads right now, is Brexit. Walking towards an election,

:45:39.:45:45.

what is the most important thing Well, there are lots of things.

:45:46.:45:47.

I voted Brexit. So that would be one

:45:48.:45:53.

of the main things. But to be honest, I don't trust

:45:54.:45:57.

Theresa May to deliver Really?

:45:58.:45:59.

No. Roger also voted for Brexit, as most

:46:00.:46:03.

of the Colchester Borough did. He is most concerned

:46:04.:46:07.

about immigration. I think there has

:46:08.:46:10.

to be a limit on it. As a country, when we look

:46:11.:46:13.

at housing and various things, we are struggling to actually

:46:14.:46:18.

have the right amount. Even in liberal small

:46:19.:46:22.

C Conservative Colchester, New figures out last week, though,

:46:23.:46:28.

showed the rise of EU We have seen the overall

:46:29.:46:34.

net migration figure That is a difference

:46:35.:46:40.

between the number of people coming in to the country

:46:41.:46:43.

and the number leaving. That suggests that Britain is

:46:44.:46:45.

less attractive to people In particular, there has been a

:46:46.:46:47.

drop in immigration from Europe, Here in Clacton, people

:46:48.:46:51.

want to see immigration Since the late 1990s,

:46:52.:46:54.

immigration began to come up and get It is something of a big concern

:46:55.:47:00.

for the people of Clacton. When the Conservatives

:47:01.:47:06.

got into government, they got in with a pledge to bring

:47:07.:47:10.

it back down to the level That is something they have not

:47:11.:47:13.

been able to achieve There are over 700,000 people

:47:14.:47:17.

in the East who were born abroad. Immigration figures show that tens

:47:18.:47:24.

of thousands of people have come to our region every

:47:25.:47:38.

year this decade. The most recent figure is a

:47:39.:47:40.

net 36,000 people coming Janet and Brian are regulars at

:47:41.:47:42.

the Clacton pavilion bowling alley. Immigration numbers

:47:43.:47:46.

are on their minds when it comes With the immigration,

:47:47.:47:49.

someone has got to stop the amount coming in here,

:47:50.:47:57.

or they have to be If Labour get in, they

:47:58.:47:59.

are more or less going In this area, it doesn't

:48:00.:48:04.

really affect us so much Clacton was a pretty safe and solid

:48:05.:48:08.

Conservative seat until 1997. In a wave of support

:48:09.:48:18.

for New Labour, Clacton went red. It wasn't until 2005 that

:48:19.:48:21.

Douglas Carswell took the seat Along came Ukip and Carswell stuck

:48:22.:48:24.

it to his party and defected, winning the seat for the purple

:48:25.:48:31.

party in 2014 and 2015. The dog days of the election

:48:32.:48:37.

campaign idea or stuck in the final straight,

:48:38.:48:40.

the Conservatives hope they can take back Clacton and make the political

:48:41.:48:43.

map of the East entirely blue. Let us have a look at what the

:48:44.:49:04.

parties are saying in their manifestos about immigration.

:49:05.:49:06.

The Conservatives say they will reduce net immigration...

:49:07.:49:08.

Labour accepts that freedom of movement

:49:09.:49:09.

will end when Britain leaves the EU and will...

:49:10.:49:16.

..in areas where immigration has placed a strain on

:49:17.:49:18.

The Liberal Democrats also supports freedom of

:49:19.:49:22.

movement between the UK and EU and will...

:49:23.:49:30.

..using an Australian-style points system and

:49:31.:49:38.

The Conservatives want to reduce annual net migration below 100,000?

:49:39.:50:06.

The flood were opens under Tony Blair. In the Conservative Party...

:50:07.:50:13.

There was an enormous amount of damage to be repaired and we have

:50:14.:50:19.

been trying to do that. I have said it for a long period of time, it

:50:20.:50:23.

needs to be controlled, control our borders properly, secure and get a

:50:24.:50:32.

grip. We are in danger, only six seats away, from Jeremy Corbyn

:50:33.:50:35.

taking the position of Prime Minister. We must not let that

:50:36.:50:40.

happen. If he got in, and open border. Absolutely not. The Labour

:50:41.:50:47.

manifesto says no free movement, no open borders. No cap on immigration,

:50:48.:51:00.

targets are bogus. What is the difference between not having a

:51:01.:51:04.

target and open doors? We are going to not have opened doors in the

:51:05.:51:08.

sense we will control immigration, restructure our immigration system

:51:09.:51:14.

so that we put in place controls that may have the impact of reducing

:51:15.:51:18.

the number of immigration. We are not going to say categorically we

:51:19.:51:22.

will get it to the tens of thousands if that is what the conservative

:51:23.:51:28.

placed in 2010, 2015, and in the last two years under Theresa May's

:51:29.:51:34.

watch, immigration reached high numbers. It is down at the moment?

:51:35.:51:46.

It is down at the moment. You want the Australian... The Australians

:51:47.:52:02.

like it very much. They do. Previous to Theresa May, under John Major,

:52:03.:52:08.

they got rid of controls. 20 years ago, the problem has been rising. We

:52:09.:52:13.

want to go back to the 50,000 per year coming in as then. Not quite

:52:14.:52:21.

one in one house. The nation is in debt, at least when John Major left

:52:22.:52:29.

office the balance in the budget was at a reasonable level. 5.9 billion

:52:30.:52:40.

it will cost? That is peanuts. There is an organisation who have said

:52:41.:52:47.

that, since the doors open to Eastern Europe, a gain of about ?9

:52:48.:52:52.

billion. In reality, that is ?1 per person per head for Britain. To be

:52:53.:53:02.

quite honest, I would rather pay ?1 per week for a seat into London on

:53:03.:53:09.

the train. That is not down to that. We have unemployment at 3.9% in the

:53:10.:53:17.

east. If you ask economists, they were Seiji percent is balanced

:53:18.:53:21.

unemployment. That is zero an appointment because most economists

:53:22.:53:27.

would agree that. -- zero unemployment. We have 25% of our

:53:28.:53:35.

doctors coming from other countries in this country. Over 3000 nurses

:53:36.:53:44.

vacancies. If he had the points-based system, the doctors

:53:45.:53:49.

would be allowed to stop one in, one out basis but will they ask people

:53:50.:54:05.

to volunteer to leave? We need unskilled labour in the farms in the

:54:06.:54:09.

eaves. That depresses the wages of people born here. It is not fine for

:54:10.:54:16.

the people without skills who already live here. We need to ensure

:54:17.:54:22.

we have the people we need and we want in this country. And get rid of

:54:23.:54:32.

those we do not need and want. The immigration system has been broken

:54:33.:54:36.

for a long time. No serious effort to control immigration. Huge numbers

:54:37.:54:43.

coming in under Tony Blair, perhaps over 10 million people. A new

:54:44.:54:48.

Greater London has to be built to house these people. Far from having

:54:49.:54:54.

a sustainable system, we have a system completely out of control.

:54:55.:54:57.

Theresa May in the last year of her time as head secretary N... Would

:54:58.:55:05.

you have no migration at all? We you have no migration at all? We

:55:06.:55:12.

think that mass uncontrolled immigration should be stopped. We

:55:13.:55:17.

are not in favour of a population replacement policy with one in, one

:55:18.:55:22.

out. We think what should be happening is a focus on English

:55:23.:55:26.

interests, and if you think about it, the point made about doctors and

:55:27.:55:29.

nurses, the reason why the British nurses, the reason why the British

:55:30.:55:36.

Government has been having them come in from abroad is because they

:55:37.:55:39.

failed to train enough of our own people. Is it possible that the

:55:40.:55:44.

reduction in immigration you talk about is a reflection of EU citizens

:55:45.:55:48.

given uncertain about living here because of the ramifications of the

:55:49.:55:55.

EU referendum? Under Theresa May's watch, 365,000, a record high

:55:56.:56:00.

immigration. Not saying we are going to have open borders, we are not,

:56:01.:56:04.

reform the immigration system, control borders, crackdown on

:56:05.:56:10.

unscrupulous employers with overseas recruitment policies. Are you saying

:56:11.:56:16.

those palmers -- farmers are unscrupulous? Everyone must pay

:56:17.:56:23.

minimum wage. We will not allow any overseas only recruitment. The

:56:24.:56:30.

people who bring people over two packer vegetables are unscrupulous?

:56:31.:56:35.

If you are undercutting wages and not paying minimum wage... I do not

:56:36.:56:41.

think we should have overseas only recruitment. They cannot get English

:56:42.:56:45.

people to get their vegetables baked. There is a simple reason,

:56:46.:56:53.

there is not the population in rural areas and English people do not want

:56:54.:56:57.

to live on the fourth of the season so it makes sense to bring people

:56:58.:57:02.

in. Another point -- just for the season. Our working population is

:57:03.:57:11.

falling and following so we do not have a working population to

:57:12.:57:17.

support... You are picking areas people are prepared to work for the

:57:18.:57:19.

wages, and they are perhaps robbing wages, and they are perhaps robbing

:57:20.:57:27.

those jobs of people born here. We certainly don't agree with low

:57:28.:57:32.

wages. We should enforce the minimum wage, rate it, a Green Party policy

:57:33.:57:34.

to have a Living Wage. Introduced by to have a Living Wage. Introduced by

:57:35.:57:45.

the Conservative Party. Before the doors open for immigration, we still

:57:46.:57:49.

got our fruit and vegetables baked in this country. The farmers are not

:57:50.:57:53.

being wicked, they are being rational. We have to move on. There

:57:54.:57:59.

are some independents standing. First and foremost, I am

:58:00.:58:02.

going to be the only honest MP If I do not know the answer,

:58:03.:58:06.

I will tell you. In Westminster, one of my main

:58:07.:58:10.

focuses is policing and crime. The judicial system now needs to be

:58:11.:58:12.

having mandatory sentences We are seeing so many police

:58:13.:58:15.

operate and arrest people, get them in the cells,

:58:16.:58:21.

all the money, all the work, straight

:58:22.:58:25.

to the courts - what happens? We now have to get the judicial

:58:26.:58:27.

system working alongside the police. I have spent the last four

:58:28.:58:36.

years studying my degree I want to offer that

:58:37.:58:38.

to the Government and make sure that the young people

:58:39.:58:42.

are being represented because it is about the huge

:58:43.:58:44.

decisions made about their future, and about where they are going

:58:45.:58:46.

to go, and industry in this country. We need to protect that

:58:47.:58:49.

and make sure we can get Now for our round-up

:58:50.:58:52.

of the political week in 60 Seconds The week began with the launch

:58:53.:59:02.

of the Green Party manifesto. You cannot say I will tackle air

:59:03.:59:12.

pollution and expand roads and expand airports -

:59:13.:59:16.

you have to make the right choices Conservatives carried on sending big

:59:17.:59:19.

names to North Norfolk, where they are fighting to take

:59:20.:59:24.

the seat from the Lib Dems. Security in this region was stepped

:59:25.:59:29.

up following the Manchester bombing, and the general election

:59:30.:59:32.

campaign was suspended. Vigils were held across the East

:59:33.:59:37.

in memory of the 22 people who died. The campaign resumed with the Ukip

:59:38.:59:43.

manifesto launch when I irate MEP Stuart Agnew rallied

:59:44.:59:48.

against journalists. But the party continues

:59:49.:59:54.

to maintain that it has real Are you honestly helpful of keeping

:59:55.:59:57.

Clacton, winning any But really, realistically,

:59:58.:00:02.

it is not likely, is it? Thank you very much.

:00:03.:00:10.

Thank you! Where the party fight to stop

:00:11.:00:34.

campaigning this week? The trouble is, with this great tragedy, it is

:00:35.:00:40.

very easy to feel emotional about it. And react in that way. The fact

:00:41.:00:46.

of the matter is that the reason why we had this tragedy does come back

:00:47.:00:50.

to a question we were discussing earlier about immigration and lack

:00:51.:00:56.

of control of it. It was the right call. Who has it helped? Have any of

:00:57.:01:04.

the parties gained? I do not think so. Mutual respect, for all those

:01:05.:01:11.

suffering and affected. It was the right call to have the brief pause.

:01:12.:01:17.

We were happy to delay the launch because it was right and proper. It

:01:18.:01:22.

was only until Thursday that much of the most important thing is that we

:01:23.:01:27.

cannot allow people to interrupt the process of our democracy. We cannot

:01:28.:01:32.

let people turn on our minorities because that is giving the

:01:33.:01:37.

terrorists exactly what they want. It was the most shocking of events

:01:38.:01:41.

and I think we all agree that we are horrified by that. We should never

:01:42.:01:46.

let that happen in this country and we need to catch those planning this

:01:47.:01:50.

sort of thing. On the day we suspended campaigning, I thought it

:01:51.:01:55.

was the right thing to do. Thank you for being here.

:01:56.:01:58.

we'll be back next week in the final week of the campaign.

:01:59.:02:02.

re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.

:02:03.:02:04.

Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election

:02:05.:02:19.

campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.

:02:20.:02:26.

Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is

:02:27.:02:30.

that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who

:02:31.:02:36.

do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only

:02:37.:02:40.

be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters

:02:41.:02:45.

this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about

:02:46.:02:51.

Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,

:02:52.:02:57.

is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the

:02:58.:03:01.

tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech

:03:02.:03:06.

last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin

:03:07.:03:10.

analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I

:03:11.:03:15.

think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack

:03:16.:03:25.

just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister

:03:26.:03:27.

has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,

:03:28.:03:33.

it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic

:03:34.:03:41.

attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You

:03:42.:03:48.

raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader

:03:49.:03:52.

argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two

:03:53.:03:55.

courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation

:03:56.:04:01.

about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.

:04:02.:04:07.

You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign

:04:08.:04:14.

by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by

:04:15.:04:18.

politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a

:04:19.:04:23.

divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue

:04:24.:04:30.

that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply

:04:31.:04:34.

unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me

:04:35.:04:41.

does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic

:04:42.:04:48.

event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue

:04:49.:04:54.

that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political

:04:55.:05:01.

battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a

:05:02.:05:06.

tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree

:05:07.:05:14.

or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a

:05:15.:05:18.

time to review the level of argument? This is a political

:05:19.:05:23.

debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and

:05:24.:05:26.

about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We

:05:27.:05:33.

mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when

:05:34.:05:40.

we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a

:05:41.:05:44.

lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do

:05:45.:05:49.

you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that

:05:50.:05:54.

suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,

:05:55.:05:58.

which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.

:05:59.:06:02.

Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to

:06:03.:06:06.

grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power

:06:07.:06:15.

Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And

:06:16.:06:20.

not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another

:06:21.:06:25.

example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David

:06:26.:06:30.

Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now

:06:31.:06:34.

heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I

:06:35.:06:41.

personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the

:06:42.:06:46.

major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of

:06:47.:06:50.

terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate

:06:51.:06:54.

terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be

:06:55.:06:58.

supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an

:06:59.:07:03.

election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the

:07:04.:07:07.

Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a

:07:08.:07:10.

great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that

:07:11.:07:17.

will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole

:07:18.:07:22.

point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not

:07:23.:07:26.

quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less

:07:27.:07:30.

impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just

:07:31.:07:35.

repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They

:07:36.:07:39.

like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we

:07:40.:07:43.

see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting

:07:44.:07:47.

to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are

:07:48.:07:51.

asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will

:07:52.:07:58.

that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in

:07:59.:08:08.

terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why

:08:09.:08:12.

she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will

:08:13.:08:20.

absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is

:08:21.:08:24.

a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65

:08:25.:08:30.

million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.

:08:31.:08:36.

It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you

:08:37.:08:40.

think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they

:08:41.:08:46.

will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls

:08:47.:08:51.

and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to

:08:52.:08:56.

get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on

:08:57.:09:02.

one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume

:09:03.:09:06.

that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable

:09:07.:09:10.

campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.

:09:11.:09:14.

On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.

:09:15.:09:21.

Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the

:09:22.:09:26.

Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have

:09:27.:09:31.

had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.

:09:32.:09:35.

Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home

:09:36.:09:40.

Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home

:09:41.:09:44.

office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government

:09:45.:09:48.

has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in

:09:49.:09:53.

additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in

:09:54.:09:56.

the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You

:09:57.:10:01.

voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on

:10:02.:10:06.

that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.

:10:07.:10:11.

We are making good progress with the companies who put in place

:10:12.:10:14.

encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.

:10:15.:10:21.

I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same

:10:22.:10:25.

hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The

:10:26.:10:30.

hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,

:10:31.:10:36.

you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the

:10:37.:10:43.

views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my

:10:44.:10:46.

hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of

:10:47.:10:53.

how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides

:10:54.:10:56.

talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election

:10:57.:11:01.

debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it

:11:02.:11:08.

and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm

:11:09.:11:11.

glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane

:11:12.:11:16.

Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage

:11:17.:11:23.

votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that

:11:24.:11:28.

legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they

:11:29.:11:33.

are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I

:11:34.:11:45.

did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.

:11:46.:11:49.

That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it

:11:50.:12:02.

seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault

:12:03.:12:07.

of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which

:12:08.:12:11.

the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would

:12:12.:12:14.

imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my

:12:15.:12:19.

judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would

:12:20.:12:23.

be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and

:12:24.:12:30.

performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the

:12:31.:12:37.

economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I

:12:38.:12:45.

don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd

:12:46.:12:48.

is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be

:12:49.:12:53.

debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the

:12:54.:12:57.

electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like

:12:58.:13:01.

to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking

:13:02.:13:05.

forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the

:13:06.:13:12.

week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our

:13:13.:13:18.

guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil

:13:19.:13:23.

will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.

:13:24.:13:29.

That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a

:13:30.:13:34.

very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.

:13:35.:14:09.

As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them

:14:10.:14:11.

the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.

:14:12.:14:21.

One minute to get the food on the plate.

:14:22.:14:22.

..team them up with a Michelin starred chef,

:14:23.:14:27.

putting their reputation on the line.

:14:28.:14:34.

..which team will have the recipe for success?

:14:35.:14:37.

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