05/11/2017 Sunday Politics East


05/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Good morning, everyone,

and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your guide to everything

that's happening in the world

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of politics this Sunday morning.

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On today's show:

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Theresa May's right-hand man

Damian Green has denied claims that

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police found pornography

on a computer in his office in 2008.

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He says the allegations by a former

police chief are "political smears."

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With claims of sexual harassment

at Westminster growing by the day,

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can either Theresa May

or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

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to grips with a scandal

threatening to engulf

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the entire political class?

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We'll ask a minister and senior

member of the Shadow Cabinet.

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And some on the left of politics

have been gathering to mark 100

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Growing

have been gathering to mark 100

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Growing concern

have been gathering to mark 100

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Growing concern over

have been gathering to mark 100

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Growing concern over who

have been gathering to mark 100

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Growing concern over who will

have been gathering to mark 100

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Growing concern over who will

harvest our crops as Brexit gets

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closer.

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So there's plenty of

explosive political news

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to get you in the mood

for bonfire night -

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and with me as usual,

three journalists who know quite

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a bit about parliamentary plots -

if rather less about

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gunpowder and treason.

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It's Tom Newton Dunn,

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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So what are the big political

stories making the news this Sunday?

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Well, the papers are brimming

with further allegations against MPs

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in the sexual harassment scandal,

which according to one newspaper has

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left Westminster frozen in fear.

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First Secretary of State Damian

Green, already under

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investigation over allegations -

which he strongly denies -

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of propositioning a female activist,

is the subject of new claims that

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police discovered pornography

on a computer in his Westminster

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office in 2008.

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Mr Green denies the allegation,

made by former senior

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police officer Bob Quick,

saying it is "completely untrue,"

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and adding that he is the victim

of disreputable "political smears."

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Michael Fallon, who resigned

as Defence Secretary this week

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over his past behaviour,

is also subject to fresh claims

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he lunged at a female journalist

in 2003 after a lunch.

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Labour is facing questions

over its handling of sexual

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misconduct allegations.

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This morning Shadow Cabinet minister

Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

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on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew

about alleged misconduct by MP

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Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted

to the Shadow Cabinet.

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And there is a reminder that normal

political life goes on,

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with reports that the Cabinet has

agreed to put housing at the heart

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of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

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Well, let's hear from

Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

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she was on the Andrew Marr Show

earlier talking about the claims

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against her Cabinet colleague Damian

Green.

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Absolutely not. I think it is

something that will take place in

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terms of clearing out Westminster of

that sort of behaviour, and I think

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that Westminster afterwards,

including the Government, will be

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better for it. When we are confident

that men and women can work any

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respectful environment and people on

the receiving end of abuse of power

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can come forward. That will be a

positive thing.

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Let's see what our panel make of

this fairly explosive week. Good

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morning to all of you. Starting with

you, Steve. Not a party political

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issue but the Tories are in

Government. How much harder for them

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is it an Labour?

Always harder when

you are in Government because it

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makes governing almost impossible.

And the wider context is a Prime

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Minister who lost her overall

majority a few months ago and

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actually that is the context of

everything. When you are having to

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deal with the scandal of such

unpredictability, where the

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terms are so imprecise, it is a

"lunge", a resignation issue, to use

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that term, and nightmare. I don't

think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

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bring down governments, but it makes

governing for Theresa May a form of

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political health.

Isabel Oakeshott,

Damian Green has denied all

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allegations made against him, but

there are more this morning. He is

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being investigated by the Cabinet

Office at the moment. If Theresa May

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were to effectively lose her Deputy

Prime Minister, has serious without

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the?

I think very serious indeed. I

think it is very significant and

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strange he was not defended in the

Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

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clip we saw today, she didn't say I

am certain he will survive, and I am

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beginning to feel that Damian may

not survive this. We don't know

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whether it is the last of the

allegations that may come out in

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relation to him. It seems to me that

the allegations were previously of a

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rather minor order, but this seems

to have escalated. And I think one

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of the big problems for Theresa May,

and there are the many at the

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moment, for months we have been

saying that this Government has no

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bandwidth to do anything except

Brexit and right now she can't even

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do Brexit. What is the point of it

all?

It is important to make clear

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not only that Damian Green denies

all of these allegations, but the

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computer mentioned was in a shared

office so there is no reason it

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would definitely be his

# No guarantee it would definitely

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be his. But we have had two MPs on

television this morning, Anna

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Soubry, saying he should stand down.

There is an awful lot going on here.

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It is not just a pretty awful sexual

harassment scandal. There are also

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without a doubt MPs, police

officers, going about settling

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scores. For me I have to say for our

pretty discredited police officer

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Bob Quick, to make accusations

against serving Cabinet minister, to

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suggest he should go for extreme

pornography on computers he may or

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may not have known, it may be

extremely distasteful but it is

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alarming for democracy to have

ex-police officers like this coming

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in and trying to play with

democracy. Some politicians are also

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meeting claims, some for the right

reasons to get the allegations out

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there and so on but others for their

own agendas and all of this puts the

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Prime Minister in an unbelievably

hard situation. I agree with Steve

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and Isabel, she desperately needs

two show leadership in all this, but

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every way she could turn there are

incredible downfalls, people blaming

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her for trying to get to the bottom

of all this. It is very people who

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she is relying on for her

leadership, the very Tory MPs the

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support she can't lose.

It is not

just the Tory party and of course

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Jeremy Corbyn will be making a

speech later today where this will

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inevitably and there are accusations

about how the senior leadership in

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the Labour Party have handled this.

What about that situation?

Yes, but

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the Government is much harder

because you are meant to be doing

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10,000 other things at the same

time. This is about a deregulated

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work environment. For all those who

say, I hate the way Britain is too

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regulated, this is what happens in a

deregulated work environment. The

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House of Commons has no HR or

whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

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actually don't have much power but

they do have power over who the

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point and how to treat them. I think

this is the way forward in terms of

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the practical outcome, but it is

across the political spectrum.

But

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it is unclear what it will be. Can

the party sort this out?

I'm not

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sure I entirely agree, Steve, you

cannot regulate all human

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interaction and a lot of these

stories have been about interactions

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between politicians and journalists

alike, who have gone out for lunch,

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chosen to drink, presumably to

create an informal atmosphere, and

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at what point is a step towards

somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

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the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You

can't regulate that sort of thing.

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Throughout the programme will come

back to some of these things and how

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they might be regulated.

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Now, the Home Secretary has

also today been talking

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about what she calls the "moral

duty" of social media companies

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to stop child sexual exploitation,

ahead of a meeting with her US

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counterparts this week.

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We're joined now by the Home Office

minister Sarah Newton -

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she's in our Truro studio.

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Thanks very much for coming in to

speak the first night. I want to

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talk to you about the Government's

efforts to tackle child pornography,

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but let's pick up on some of the

sexual harassment issues at

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Westminster first. Two of your

parliamentary colleagues this

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morning saying they think the first

Secretary of State Damian Green

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should step down whilst being

investigated. Do you agree?

Look, he

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has vigorously denied these

accusations, and the Cabinet Office

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is investigating these accusations,

so we do have processes for when

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ministers have these accusations

made against them so they are

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properly investigated. And that is

what is going on at the moment.

Is

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that process people can be confident

in? He is effectively being

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investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one

of his colleagues.

This is a tried

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and tested process that has stood

the test of time, and it is

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important...

Has it? Surely what we

are learning is it has not stood the

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test of time and that in fact

allegations like this have been

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swept under the carpet and ignored

for years and years in Westminster,

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exactly what we are learning right

now.

I think you are conflating two

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things they are, and what we really

do need to do is look at the whole

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range of allegations people have

been making, and make sure

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Parliament is a safe place for

people to work, a respectful

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environment for people who have been

subjected to harassment or bullying

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or inappropriate behaviour, so that

they feel confident to come forward

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knowing they will be listened to,

that there will be an open and

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transparent and fair to everyone

concerned process for getting to the

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bottom of it, and that is exactly

what the Prime Minister and the

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Leader of the Cows have set out,

Prime Minister's meeting with all

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the leaders of the parties tomorrow

to set out a proper process so we

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can modernise the work environment

at Westminster -- leader of the

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House have set out.

You think Damian

Green should remain in the Cabinet

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well being investigated?

That will

be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

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thinks the misdemeanours have a

basis, that he should stand aside,

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that will be the recommendation. I

will not second the inquiry on what

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Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.

You were

in the Whips' Office yourself for a

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year. And much has been said this

week of the whips being in receipt

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of a lot of information about bad

behaviour, and instead of reporting

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it to authorities they were using it

as ammunition. Was that your

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experience?

Absolutely not. I was at

the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

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yes, I heard about the rumours of a

black spreadsheet, and I can

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certainly say I never saw such a

thing. How I went about my business

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as a whip is really twofold. It is

quite a technical job in many ways,

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about of the Government through the

House, working with the House

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authorities, the opposition. Also...

Did you ever hear rumours of these

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people's bad behaviour?

Sorry?

Did

you ever hear rumours of MPs

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misbehaving, sexual harassment,

allegations are that?

If anybody had

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brought a complaint to me about the

behaviour of one of the MPs who were

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in my flock, I would take that

really seriously, but bull-mac, that

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didn't happen.

You said nobody

brought you a complaint. Did you

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hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't

happen.

About the members of my

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flock? Absolutely not.

Is that the

MPs you were specifically in charge

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of?

I did not have that experience

at all.

Let's move on and talk about

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the Home Secretary's trip to

Washington this week, where she will

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urge tech companies to go further

and faster on online child abuse. We

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have heard a lot from this

Government urging these companies to

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do something. One specific ideas of

what they could do, do you have a

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clear idea of what you are asking

from tech companies?

Absolutely

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right. As you know, this horrendous

crime of child sexual exploitation

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and grooming is constantly evolving

as the opportunities for the

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perpetrators arise. They are now

using live streaming, different

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sorts of platforms, which are

largely controlled by the big

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companies in America. What we really

want them to do is to step up and

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use their huge expertise, used the

huge money they have got, to help

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find technological solutions to read

their sites and rid the opportunity

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of these paedophiles to be able to

groom young people. We need the

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politicians in America to exert

pressure, as well as other

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companies, because these are global

problems. We are not going to solve

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this problem in the UK alone. We

have made a lot of progress, working

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with Facebook and other companies as

well, but we really need to keep one

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step ahead of the technology, one

step ahead of the perpetrators, who

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are using these opportunities to

commit horrendous crimes.

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It was back in 2014 Theresa May for

the Internet companies to do more in

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terms of child abuse online and we

have not seen significant action,

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and it does not appear these kind of

calls from the Government actually

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make difference.

Well, at the moment we are seeing

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the police being able to make about

400 arrests per month, about 500

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children being safeguarded. The

Government itself is investing a lot

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of money in new technology like the

project Arachnid, and making sure

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the police have the specialist

resources they need to go

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undercover, and absolutely find

these perpetrators and bring them to

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justice, but we do need to

constantly have the engagement and

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support of the companies themselves

to invest in further technologies to

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prevent this from happening. As you

say, we have made progress but we

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need to see yet more.

Sarah Newton,

thank you very much for speaking to

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us today.

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Michael Fallon's decision

to resign this week,

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saying his past conduct with women

fell short of the standard expected

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of the Armed Forces, led

to something of a minor reshuffle.

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And the Prime Minister took

Westminster by surprise

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when she announced his replacement,

former Chief Whip and relative

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newcomer to the ministerial

ranks, Gavin Williamson.

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Here he is speaking on the day

of his appointment.

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It's an immense privilege to have

been appointed Secretary

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of State for Defence,

and what we need to be doing

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is continuing to focus

on countering Daesh,

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making sure that our national

security is at the forefront

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of everything that we do,

and we have some of the world's

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greatest armed services,

and it's such a privilege to be able

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to work with them.

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Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,

arrives at the Ministry of Defence

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at a challenging time

for UK defence.

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The Government has promised

an above-inflation increase

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in spending every year

but the Ministry of Defence

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is already committed to finding

£20 billion of savings

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over the next ten years.

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The Cabinet Office is currently

conducting a security review

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which will look at military

capabilities and funding up to 2022,

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while there are continuing

reports of shortages

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of manpower and equipment.

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And if Labour were to win power,

questions persist over

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what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership

would mean for defence budget

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and the traditional cornerstones

of UK defence policy

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like Trident and Nato.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Let's talk about defence spending

first. Would Labour commit to the

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same thing this Government has which

is an above inflation increase in

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spending every year?

We've been

absolutely clear about that. First

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and foremost we'd meet our

commitment of spending at least 2%

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of GDP on defence as is our Nato

commitment and we would match the

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Government's year-on-year 0.5%

increase above inflation. This is

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really important. Labour's always

had a good strong track record of

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spending on defence.

Jeremy Corbyn

seems to have a different view.

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Speaking at a protest in 2010 he

said Labour wanted to fight all the

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cuts except those in the Armed

Forces where we want to see a few

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more cuts taking place. He doesn't

seem committed to defence spending?

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In the manifesto for this year's

election, 2017, he and John

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McDonnell have been absolutely clear

we support the exact words I've been

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using now, at least 2% of the spend

of GDP spent on defence.

Jeremy

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Corbyn's changed his mind on that?

He's been very clear about that and

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it was in our manifesto this year.

You criticised the Government on

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whether they meet their 2%

commitment on defence. You saying

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they were fiddling the figures

because they were including

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pensions. You would strip that out

and snake sure there's 2% spending

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on defence which doesn't include

pensions?

Technically, the

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Government would argue you are

allowed to include pensions by the

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Nato rules. But we've been very

clear, really, when you're talking

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about defence spending it should

mean defence. When you look at the

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last year of the Labour Government

we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

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very much committed to looking at

what we need in our defence budget

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and looking to the problems they

have now where they can't meet the

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commitments they've made.

You would

sprip pensions out of those figures.

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In order to live up to these

commitments you have to find an

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extra billion for the defence

budgets because we're not

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calculating pensions anymore?

John

McDonnell is well aware of what they

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are doing. Putting in the conflict

resolution money which Gordon Brown

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kept separate. He is well aware of

the figures and the difficulties. We

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are certainly very committed to a

defence budget that really does make

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a difference.

I'm not clear whether

you're telling me it will be 2% 69

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spending, excluding pensions?

We

want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

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way Labour always calculate it had

up until 2010, not including

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pensions.

A significant increase in

military spending?

We are talking

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about making sure the spending we

need is there because, at the

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current situation, we have with the

current Government, they are

0:19:210:19:24

overstretched. Even the very caution

National Audit Office says they are

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at immense risk of not being able to

meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:290:19:35

they have made. Others talk about a

black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:350:19:40

£20 billion. There is a real issue

we have to address.

To you know what

0:19:400:19:47

it will cost, how muchedingsal funds

will have to be found?

We have to

0:19:470:19:51

rook at what are the needs at the

time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:510:19:57

make that 2% commitment not

including things which have just

0:19:570:20:01

been brushed in now by the

Conservative Government.

Let's move

0:20:010:20:04

on to a different aspect of defence.

There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:040:20:11

weapons opened at the UN for

signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:110:20:14

already signed it. Would an incoming

Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:140:20:20

The important point here is there

was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:200:20:23

there to be observers from the UK.

There should have been at that

0:20:230:20:28

treaty talks.

That doesn't change

the calculation whether or not an

0:20:280:20:33

incoming Labour Government would

sign that treaty?

We are committed

0:20:330:20:40

to a strong multi-lateral disarming

programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:400:20:45

missing.

This is a multilateral

approach to try to get rid of

0:20:450:20:48

nuclear weapons. What you say you

want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:480:20:53

that treaty?

You we have to look at

how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:530:20:57

somebody clear we want to

de-escalate tensions across the

0:20:570:21:01

world. Work with other nuclear

partners to help stop the

0:21:010:21:06

proliferation of nuclear weapons. We

want to work with those countries

0:21:060:21:10

who feel very strongly about the

treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:100:21:15

have to do that in a multilateral

framework.

This is a multi-lateral

0:21:150:21:21

disarmament framework. Under the

auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:210:21:26

else it could be organised. This is

a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:260:21:29

have been a lifelong campaigner for

disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:290:21:34

will be the first nuclear power to

do so, sign it and lead the way.

We

0:21:340:21:40

need to use our position to be

responsible and call for responsible

0:21:400:21:45

multi-lateral disarmamentment there

was progress made on this in the

0:21:450:21:48

eighties and nineties with

considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:480:21:51

to one side and destroyed. We need

to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:510:21:55

I don't see any presence by the UK

Government at the moment on that

0:21:550:21:58

aagain da. It is not helpful for the

nukes leer nations to be separated

0:21:580:22:03

from the non-nuclear nation in the

these debates.

That's why I don't

0:22:030:22:09

understand why you're not taking the

opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:090:22:13

Government would Take The Stand.

We

should wok together and we should

0:22:130:22:17

use our position as a nuclear power

to work for a multilateral

0:22:170:22:22

disarmament programme.

You were very

clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:220:22:26

Labour Party would keep Trident for

the meantime.

Abs will yously.

We

0:22:260:22:30

know throughout his life, Jeremy

Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:300:22:33

it. He signed up to the manifesto

saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:330:22:40

changed his minds?

The important

thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:400:22:45

Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.

We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:450:22:49

is the Labour Party position.

Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:490:22:54

Leader really believes in that

position?

He believes in democracy

0:22:540:22:57

in the party. That is the Labour

Party position. I don't see that

0:22:570:23:00

position changing at all. He has

said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:000:23:04

that is our Labour Party position.

And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:040:23:08

stood on and will continue to stand

on.

I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:080:23:13

sexual harassment in Westminster. It

is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:130:23:18

Party as the Conservative. It was

not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:180:23:22

your colleague on The Andrew Marr

Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:220:23:25

whether or not the leadership knew

about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:250:23:29

Do you know?

I absolutely do not

know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:290:23:34

why there has to be an

investigation. It is extremely

0:23:340:23:36

important to find out what the

allegations were, exactly what

0:23:360:23:41

happened, who was told and who told

what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:410:23:46

position to see what the situation

is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:460:23:50

has been suspended which is the

cricket thing to do.

Rosie Winterton

0:23:500:23:57

has been outspoken about what she

let the leadership know. If it is

0:23:570:24:02

the case the leadership did know

about these allegations should he

0:24:020:24:05

have been put into the Shadow

Cabinet?

The real question is who

0:24:050:24:09

did know what when.

But what I'm

asking you is...

I am anot going to

0:24:090:24:15

speculate whether there was an if or

whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:150:24:20

information was transmitted. Was it

put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:200:24:24

who was told what, when. Until we

have a full investigation it would

0:24:240:24:28

be inappropriate to comment. What is

absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:280:24:32

this right for the future. We must

have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:320:24:36

with incidents as and when they

occur. And we deal with them

0:24:360:24:41

prepperly in a way which gets to the

bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:410:24:44

it properly.

Why should anyone have

confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:440:24:49

treat issues that seriously when,

firstly there's a question whether

0:24:490:24:53

they knew about Kelvin hop kips and

others have been dissuaded from

0:24:530:24:58

making complaints. Knots just Bex

Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:24:580:25:03

was harassed at a party senior

figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:030:25:07

it was her own fault. It seems as if

there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:070:25:14

Labour to make a complaint.

That's

why we're having a thorough review

0:25:140:25:20

of procedures. We brought in new

procedures in July. We need to

0:25:200:25:24

ensure there's a proper helpline

available. We are appointing an

0:25:240:25:30

independent organisation which will

deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:300:25:32

nobody has to go to somebody they

think might know other people, be

0:25:320:25:36

friends with other people. They can

go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:360:25:41

and private. These are often things

you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:410:25:46

friends about. We will appoint that

organisation and make sure people

0:25:460:25:50

can go there and access to it is

made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:500:25:55

important when people come into a

job, they know if anything does

0:25:550:25:58

happen, they will be able to

complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:25:580:26:02

party members or working in

Westminster.

Thank you for talking

0:26:020:26:08

to us

0:26:080:26:08

For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:080:26:10

on the left of politics,

0:26:100:26:12

this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:120:26:14

to mark the anniversary

of the failed gunpowder

0:26:140:26:16

plot here in Britain,

but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:160:26:18

ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries

led by Lenin seized power

0:26:180:26:21

and ushered in seven

decades of Communist rule.

0:26:210:26:23

For critics, that's something

to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:230:26:25

Elizabeth Glinka went to one event

in London to find out more.

0:26:250:26:26

The 7th November 1917.

0:26:310:26:33

Red Guards under the leadership

of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:330:26:37

Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:370:26:42

This uprising, known

popularly as Red October

0:26:420:26:44

because of the difference

in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:440:26:47

was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:470:26:50

The winds of socialist change had

been blowing for some time.

0:26:500:26:54

The Tsars had resisted reform

and millions toiled in a state

0:26:540:26:59

of almost medieval surfdom.

0:26:590:27:01

Then war.

0:27:010:27:05

Nearly two million

Russians would die.

0:27:050:27:10

The revolution had really begun nine

months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:100:27:15

The world's first socialist

republic was declared.

0:27:150:27:21

October, well that

was the Bolsheviks

0:27:210:27:24

asserting their authority.

0:27:240:27:28

A hundred years on, as this

event at the TUC shows,

0:27:300:27:33

there's still plenty of people

who want to remember and even

0:27:330:27:36

celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:360:27:40

Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:400:27:42

this is an example of historical

development in action,

0:27:420:27:45

the ability of people to club

together and be able to affect

0:27:450:27:49

the discourse of history.

0:27:490:27:50

It was people's first attempt at

trying to build socialism.

0:27:500:27:53

Although there were many terrible

things that happened,

0:27:530:27:56

I think we have to try

and draw from experience.

0:27:560:27:58

Jeremy Corbyn's close friend

and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:27:580:28:01

was chairing the opening session.

0:28:010:28:04

He didn't want to talk to us

but we did manage to speak

0:28:040:28:07

to the daughter of one of the most

famous Communists of all time.

0:28:070:28:13

TRANSLATION:

It's an historic moment

0:28:130:28:16

which opened up possibilities

for further changes

0:28:160:28:19

and allowed other people

to strive for a different world.

0:28:190:28:21

A world, which it seems,

some are still keen to push for.

0:28:210:28:25

We're growing, so there is obviously

a positive reflection.

0:28:250:28:27

There is a lot of negative

propaganda that comes

0:28:270:28:29

from the Cold War period.

0:28:290:28:31

It is harder to talk

to older people maybe.

0:28:310:28:33

But younger people

are quite receptive.

0:28:330:28:35

The events and discussions taking

place here today cover a whole range

0:28:350:28:38

of topics from women's

rights to the Third World

0:28:380:28:41

and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:410:28:44

But there's much less discussion

of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:440:28:48

the purges and the political

repression that would come later.

0:28:480:28:52

We wanted to have this conference

0:28:520:28:54

because we wanted to show it

in a positive light.

0:28:540:28:57

Whatever one's view of what happened

to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:28:570:29:01

the fact is it is important

to understand the process

0:29:010:29:05

of revolutionary change

for its own sake.

0:29:050:29:08

Red October would usher

in 70 years of communism.

0:29:090:29:13

The proletarite would rise,

find respect and security.

0:29:130:29:16

But the suppression of the peoples

of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:160:29:20

camps and the murder of hundreds

of thousands, if not millions

0:29:200:29:24

of people, make it difficult

for many to see that revolution

0:29:240:29:28

as something to celebrate.

0:29:280:29:32

That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:330:29:35

So is the centenary

of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:350:29:37

for celebration, or regret?

0:29:370:29:39

Well, to discuss this I'm

joined by former Labour

0:29:390:29:41

and Respect MP George Galloway,

and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:410:29:47

Good morning. Let me start with you

George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:470:29:52

revolution a cause for celebration?

With the, if not for the October

0:29:520:29:56

revolution, we'd been conducting

this interview in German. Though the

0:29:560:30:00

truth is this interview wouldn't be

taking place and we probably

0:30:000:30:03

wouldn't be alive for a variety of

reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:030:30:11

back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill

often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:110:30:14

elsewhere. If not for the Soviet

Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:140:30:22

his successorsness, perhaps until

now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:220:30:27

Portugal.

You say we wouldn't be

able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:270:30:31

former Soviet Union we couldn't have

this office either?

That's also

0:30:310:30:34

true. But even the...

George will be

able to say, that of course.

Even

0:30:340:30:42

the sun has spots on its face as

they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:420:30:46

Union. There is no doubt tremendous

abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:460:30:55

suffering but, if not for the

transformation, then the Soviet

0:30:550:31:05

Union, Russia's GDP increased from

1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:050:31:12

And the strength that defeated

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:120:31:19

Peter Hitchens, does it offend you

there are people celebrating 100

0:31:190:31:22

years since the Russian Revolution?

Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:220:31:28

in which I lived, you would not have

been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:280:31:33

cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but

engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:330:31:35

Government using -- a cynical

putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:350:31:52

was the inauguration of an immensely

long period of repression,

0:31:520:31:58

brutality, secret police,

concentration camps and lies, which

0:31:580:32:02

I am likely to have seen come to an

end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:020:32:06

why anybody looking at that

disastrous country where so much

0:32:060:32:09

misery was needlessly imposed on so

many people for so long could

0:32:090:32:12

possibly celebrate the beginning of

it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:120:32:15

and as I say was truly the result of

the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:150:32:21

intelligence operations of the

Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:210:32:23

to save it skin...

But everyone

including George Galloway

0:32:230:32:27

acknowledges the tyranny and terror

that followed.

He doesn't. He gives

0:32:270:32:32

statistics about GDP but fails to

mention the people murdered in

0:32:320:32:35

labour

0:32:350:32:42

camp... He was of course formerly a

Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:420:32:48

Lenin, which I have not done and

neither have I done today. I have

0:32:480:32:52

never been a Communist, unlike Peter

Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:520:32:56

celebrate that an entirely different

world opened up as a result of the

0:32:560:33:01

events in October 19 17. China, you

have just seen their party congress,

0:33:010:33:05

decorated with the iconography of

the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:050:33:10

is the most powerful, or soon will

be the most powerful country on the

0:33:100:33:13

earth.

With one of the most

repressive government?

I don't think

0:33:130:33:18

that is true. There is repression in

China, but...

Enormous repression in

0:33:180:33:24

China! How can you possibly argue

there is an?

China has taken more

0:33:240:33:28

people out of poverty in the last 30

years than any country, resume,

0:33:280:33:33

system, ever has -- how can you

possibly argue there is not?

All

0:33:330:33:38

despots always argue, trying to

distract your attention from the

0:33:380:33:42

mountains of skulls behind them,

their supposed economic success,

0:33:420:33:45

which generally does not turn out to

be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:450:33:49

Union was an enormous pile of rust

by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:490:33:54

complete catastrophe.

Yes, that is

why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:540:33:58

about the Revolution 100 years ago.

Is it possible to separate the two

0:33:580:34:04

events? A popular overthrowing of a

government is perhaps different from

0:34:040:34:07

the tyranny and terror that

followed.

It was not a popular

0:34:070:34:12

overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein

propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:120:34:16

we see was a film made afterwards.

What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:160:34:21

in the middle of the night in which

hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:210:34:30

mentioned...

That German connection,

a rather more important...

Nobody

0:34:300:34:37

has even mentioned during this year

until now that there was a Russian

0:34:370:34:39

Revolution. There were two. The

first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:390:34:45

overthrowing the old regime, and I

think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:450:34:48

second one was a cynical for --

foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:480:34:55

not deserve to be spoken out.

Is

that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:550:34:58

would have done better than a

Bolshevik one?

It is not my business

0:34:580:35:04

and entirely counterfactual fiction,

if I may...

Unlike how you open this

0:35:040:35:10

discussion.

That is the most

important thing. If not for the

0:35:100:35:14

Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.

Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:140:35:21

world, with its allies -- Adolph

Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:210:35:26

and most of the world...

The effect

of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:260:35:31

Europe was colossal.

Let's bring it

all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:310:35:34

You were saying earlier you have

never been a Leninist, although

0:35:340:35:40

Peter Hitchens confesses he was at

one time.

Absolutely was a

0:35:400:35:46

Trotskyist, and now nor the complete

folly of that particular political

0:35:460:35:53

disposition.

John McDonnell in the

Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:530:35:57

Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a

problem for the Labour Party?

I

0:35:570:36:02

would have thought, arts would be

more respected now than he has been

0:36:020:36:05

for quite some time as capitalism is

collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:050:36:11

2008 the Economist itself, the bible

of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:110:36:17

Marxist economics and analysis, so I

really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:170:36:22

Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only

took them four years, 54...

It is

0:36:220:36:31

not that.

I think we are moving into

an era where Governments like the

0:36:310:36:39

Chinese Government are making plans,

and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:390:36:43

them, and thus transforming their

position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:430:36:49

need to tell you, was just about the

most backward place you could

0:36:490:36:52

possibly imagine. And from 1949 to

now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:520:36:59

is the world's biggest economy...

We

are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:36:590:37:07

by China here.

I have to put this

point in. If China was backward in

0:37:070:37:12

1949 it was far more backward by the

time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:120:37:16

leap forward and starved millions of

people to death in the period of

0:37:160:37:19

economic lunacy. You just don't

notice...

What George was saying

0:37:190:37:25

they are, and a sense certainly

amongst younger voters in this

0:37:250:37:29

country and others, where they are

turning against capitalism, they

0:37:290:37:31

don't think it has worked or

delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:310:37:35

of Marxist Leninist philosophy is

becoming more popular?

Let's hope

0:37:350:37:39

not. The fact the current system is

failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:390:37:43

the Soviet system, which is

demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:430:37:48

own leaders admitted it failed and

that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:480:37:52

in the period I was there and why it

collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:520:37:55

to conclude from examining our

position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:550:37:58

not the thing you want the dues.

This was a long period of disaster,

0:37:580:38:01

and I remember at the end of it

watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:010:38:06

has never been shown here, and the

title means approximately we can't

0:38:060:38:12

go on living like this, and for the

first time, the politburo told the

0:38:120:38:18

truth about what life was like in

the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:180:38:20

that cinema was weeping because

finally they saw the truth being

0:38:200:38:23

told about the dreadful

anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:230:38:26

been taught to live for so long. The

idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:260:38:30

it seems to me to be verging on the

obscene.

George, one interesting

0:38:300:38:34

question about this of course,

whilst there are events going on in

0:38:340:38:39

London and across the UK to mark

this centenary, it is not being

0:38:390:38:43

celebrated in Russia.

I was in

Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:430:38:46

is a big debate about whether it

ought to be, and many people are

0:38:460:38:51

celebrating it...

Vladimir Putin is

not. He would want to ignore it.

But

0:38:510:38:55

the Communist Party is the second

biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:38:550:39:00

the ruling party in China, which,

with respect, is not a separate

0:39:000:39:06

thing, because China is continuing

the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:060:39:08

rather better at it than the

Russians did, but there are many

0:39:080:39:13

people, particularly older, that is

true, who think that the era of the

0:39:130:39:17

Soviet Union was better than the

very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:170:39:23

succeeded it. So half the world

followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:230:39:30

the red banner of Leninism. No one

will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:300:39:37

kind that Peter used to proselytise

is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:370:39:41

Marxism is going to live on.

Let's

hope not.

Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:410:39:47

for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:470:39:49

It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:490:39:50

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:500:39:51

Coming up on the programme:

0:39:510:39:54

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:540:39:57

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:39:570:40:00

It wasn't just Westminster

that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:000:40:02

We're asking people in Guildford

in Surrey,

0:40:020:40:04

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

0:40:040:40:05

Hello and welcome to Sunday politics

east. Later in the programme, fears

0:40:160:40:21

grow over bringing our crops in from

the fields in the future.

We have

0:40:210:40:27

had double the number of early

leavers, double the number of people

0:40:270:40:31

who we have offered jobs to and not

showing up.

Suspended funds, an

0:40:310:40:38

investigation, a report pending. The

sorry state of a local enterprise

0:40:380:40:41

partnership.

0:40:410:40:51

Welcome, my guests this morning. It

has been a difficult week in

0:40:540:41:00

Westminster with claims of sexual

harassment. The Defence Secretary

0:41:000:41:05

has resigned and Kelvin Hopkins has

been suspended from the Labour Party

0:41:050:41:09

while an investigation takes place

after allegations were made against

0:41:090:41:13

him. What is it like that

Westminster at the moment? Do all

0:41:130:41:18

the MPs feel under pressure?

I don't

think the atmosphere is anything

0:41:180:41:23

like as bad as what you might get

the impression from the newspapers

0:41:230:41:28

but obviously it has been a

troubling week and the fact that

0:41:280:41:32

there is sexual harassment and

bullying going on and it appears to

0:41:320:41:35

have been tolerated and in some

cases reported and nothing has been

0:41:350:41:40

done, it is not a party thing, is

very troubling. There is bullying

0:41:400:41:45

and sexual harassment in every

workplace. There is probably sexual

0:41:450:41:49

harassment in the BBC and every

employer. It is not surprising it is

0:41:490:41:54

airing parliament. We have the added

dimension in Parliament of older

0:41:540:41:58

people who are seen to have

authority and younger people working

0:41:580:42:02

around them that may feel

vulnerable. That places an extra

0:42:020:42:07

obligation on people to be

respectful and be very careful and

0:42:070:42:12

plainly not everybody has been. It

is wrong and it is a good thing it

0:42:120:42:15

is coming to light but it is still

not pleasant.

Somebody who would

0:42:150:42:20

like to go there, what is your

reaction?

There is a sense of

0:42:200:42:25

surprise that there are no workplace

policies and trade unions are not

0:42:250:42:29

more involved. This is what we see

in the workplace is I go end. There

0:42:290:42:33

is a clear reporting direction.

People know what to do.

In a lot of

0:42:330:42:43

these cases, these are consenting

adults.

Well, are they? That is the

0:42:430:42:48

question. It would appeal they are

not all consenting adults and that

0:42:480:42:52

is the issue. If they are consenting

adults then there is nothing wrong

0:42:520:42:55

with it.

And this issue about Kelvin

Hopkins being promoted even though

0:42:550:43:00

people knew about the allegations

which were made against him. What is

0:43:000:43:04

your reaction?

It is a sense of

disappointment. It is not the Kelvin

0:43:040:43:11

Hopkins that I thought that I knew.

We don't know what type of

0:43:110:43:14

investigation took place and what

actions took place. My understanding

0:43:140:43:18

is initially the person concerned

was satisfied at the outcome but

0:43:180:43:24

that seems to have changed now.

Do

you think this is destabilising for

0:43:240:43:28

the Conservative Party and the

government?

It does not help. There

0:43:280:43:35

may be more revelations to come in

the days and weeks ahead. But I

0:43:350:43:40

think every so often we the British

go in for a bout of the brow

0:43:400:43:48

hysteria and quite often there is

something to it. In the expenses

0:43:480:43:54

crisis, it was over something and

this is over something as well but

0:43:540:43:57

you do get the conflation of two

different things, serious

0:43:570:44:01

allegations on the one hand and

things that are actually perfectly

0:44:010:44:06

private matters, consensual

relations between adults, on the

0:44:060:44:09

other. But because it makes good

copy in the tabloid newspapers, it

0:44:090:44:13

all gets put in the same hop around

before you know it, you have an

0:44:130:44:17

atmosphere in which people feel they

say -- they cannot do or say

0:44:170:44:22

anything in case they get reported.

If you are not careful, it is in

0:44:220:44:27

danger of becoming an overreaction

but I don't want to give the

0:44:270:44:30

impression I don't think this is

serious. It is serious.

Any idea

0:44:300:44:35

where the allegations are coming

from?

Personally, no. There is this

0:44:350:44:42

idea of this what's up group, with

staff sharing information, which is

0:44:420:44:47

perhaps a good thing, that this

information is available and people

0:44:470:44:50

have different interests on both

sides in fostering a problem for the

0:44:500:44:54

other side.

We will move on.

Let's look at farming now and there

0:44:540:45:00

is growing concern about who will

pick our crops. A shortage of

0:45:000:45:05

foreign workers Haaretz already cost

one of our biggest companies £1

0:45:050:45:07

million. The crisis has deepened

this summer with a call for a clear

0:45:070:45:14

plan from the government after

Brexit.

0:45:140:45:19

This nursery grows 400 tonnes of

strawberries each year for a leading

0:45:190:45:23

supermarket.

Strawberries ripen at

different types, different shades

0:45:230:45:30

are red. Supermarkets are discerning

about the quality and the ripeness

0:45:300:45:35

of the strawberries, so it needs the

human eye, as far as we are

0:45:350:45:38

concerned.

But this quintessentially

British fruit is picked by seasonal

0:45:380:45:43

workers, mostly from Romania and

Bulgaria.

The difference after they

0:45:430:45:49

start to vote for Brexit is that the

pound goes so slow, so low in

0:45:490:45:54

Romania, for example, before people

start to talk about Brexit, it was

0:45:540:45:58

6.3. And now it is 5.2. Something

like that. We are losing quite a lot

0:45:580:46:07

of money.

That is the only problem

for now for us.

The nursery works

0:46:070:46:17

hard to have good working conditions

and retain staff but they want

0:46:170:46:20

reassurances from the government.

There is this cliff edge that is

0:46:200:46:25

creeping up on us and we are not

quite sure how it will pan out. We

0:46:250:46:29

would like there to be something in

place as soon as possible so that we

0:46:290:46:32

have some sort of certainty on how

we can obtain foreign workers, like

0:46:320:46:38

a seasonal scheme, just so that we

have guarantees in the years ahead

0:46:380:46:44

of obtaining the rights of the

people.

The seasonal worker scheme

0:46:440:46:49

operated until 2013 and meant that

farmers could employ workers from

0:46:490:46:53

around the world on special

short-term visas. The farming

0:46:530:46:56

industry would like the scheme

reintroduced sooner rather than

0:46:560:47:00

later but the government says net

migration figures show there are

0:47:000:47:06

plenty of workers. The government is

carrying out reviews but one of the

0:47:060:47:11

biggest growers in the UK says the

uncertainty is already costing them.

0:47:110:47:15

We have had double the number of

early leavers and people who we have

0:47:150:47:22

offered jobs to and not showing up.

If current trends continue, there is

0:47:220:47:27

a serious probability that we don't

-- we won't have enough workers next

0:47:270:47:30

year.

The evidence from our members,

the growers, is that we could be

0:47:300:47:37

reaching a crunch point next year. I

know of farmers that are reducing

0:47:370:47:42

the size of their businesses and the

last thing we want as we leave the

0:47:420:47:46

European Union is to export our

farming horticulture and food

0:47:460:47:49

business overseas.

It is not just

seasonal workers that farmers are

0:47:490:47:54

concerned about. Tom Bradshaw owns

hectors of farmland in Essex and is

0:47:540:47:59

part of a group of people this group

has brought together to discuss the

0:47:590:48:04

effects Brexit on their industry.

This crop of wheat was harvested in

0:48:040:48:09

August and might not be sold until

May this year. It is likely to be in

0:48:090:48:14

the shed until May 2019, that is

after Brexit. We need some sort of

0:48:140:48:19

clarity as to the direction we

should be heading in.

As they wait

0:48:190:48:25

for answers, many farmers like Tom

are taking matters into their own

0:48:250:48:29

hands and diversifying their

business.

We set up an equestrian

0:48:290:48:33

centre. We only riding school as

well. And now we are looking at

0:48:330:48:38

other income screens STREAMS. Make

as less reliant on support going

0:48:380:48:48

forward. We are looking at the

opportunity of a swimming pool.

0:48:480:48:54

The Brexit negotiations may be

plodding on but farmers planning for

0:48:540:48:59

next year may continue to press the

government for more urgent answers.

0:48:590:49:06

The government says it recognises a

strong workforce is crucial for

0:49:060:49:10

agriculture and has commissioned

advice from the migration advisory

0:49:100:49:13

committee. This week the Secretary

of State Michael Gove was asked

0:49:130:49:19

about food prices after Brexit.

To

focus purely on the process of

0:49:190:49:26

leaving the European Union, the

moment at which we leave and the

0:49:260:49:30

creation of tariffs as having a

decisive impact on food prices in

0:49:300:49:34

the absence of everything else is to

look at only one part of the

0:49:340:49:38

landscape.

Is he right? Well, yes, I think

0:49:380:49:49

there is a growing concern there and

certainly in our area when we look

0:49:490:49:54

at fisheries and food processing,

there is very little margin for

0:49:540:49:57

profit. And bringing in different

tariffs could prove significantly

0:49:570:50:03

detrimental.

You both operate in

Norfolk and Norfolk has a lot of

0:50:030:50:10

migrant workers coming in. This is a

problem which some people were

0:50:100:50:14

talking about before the Brexit

vote.

The scheme which was mentioned

0:50:140:50:18

in your package has been running for

60 years. It would be relatively

0:50:180:50:23

easy to set it up again. Farmers

preferred it because they get a Visa

0:50:230:50:28

for a particular workplace and

period and when you have completely

0:50:280:50:31

free movement, people have earned

enough money and they disappear for

0:50:310:50:35

a few weeks and they cannot get the

continuity of supplies. In some

0:50:350:50:41

ways, having a scheme like this is

actually better and I suspect that

0:50:410:50:43

is where we will end up. Personally

I think it would have been sensible

0:50:430:50:48

to keep it in place and now we are

going to have Brexit, it may come

0:50:480:50:52

back at some point.

And you actually

overriding the Greek holiday?

The

0:50:520:51:02

continuity of supply is likely to be

higher if you have got a Visa that

0:51:020:51:06

only applies to a specific workplace

for a specific duration. Farmers

0:51:060:51:10

have said to me they prefer that.

One of the fundamental issues you

0:51:100:51:14

are not taking on board is that

people are choosing not to come here

0:51:140:51:17

to work because the value of the

pound is not as good as it used to

0:51:170:51:21

be. We are going to face

difficulties.

It is a whole range of

0:51:210:51:26

different issues. One of the

advantages... You have highlighted a

0:51:260:51:31

disadvantage. One of the advantages

is that it is easier to exporter and

0:51:310:51:38

given that we import three times

more food than we export, that will

0:51:380:51:41

help create that balance. I am

hoping we will come to a point where

0:51:410:51:45

we start to produce more of our own

food.

But there will be no one to

0:51:450:51:50

pick it.

Eventually, people will

have to do pay more to attract

0:51:500:51:55

workers and the price of food will

go up. Since we have been facing

0:51:550:51:59

tariffs from New Zealand, Africa, in

order to keep African farmers poor

0:51:590:52:05

while having French farmers get rich

in essence, actually... Paddy

0:52:050:52:10

Ashdown was campaigning for a 90

said we would have lower food prices

0:52:100:52:14

if we left the EU and he was right.

That is one of the points. We are

0:52:140:52:19

seeing farming industry is looking

to diversify and it could be they

0:52:190:52:23

are not going to continue.

It is

good thing to have a diversify

0:52:230:52:27

model. The farmer in the package,

the last thing he should do is

0:52:270:52:35

consult government. He should figure

it out. It is a business decision

0:52:350:52:38

for him.

They want certainty.

And

they are not getting it. They can't

0:52:380:52:46

have it happen more.

They are in

business. As you will know, most of

0:52:460:52:52

the subsidies that have been coming

through the EU, and the government

0:52:520:52:56

is committed to maintaining them for

the next five years, have been

0:52:560:53:00

environment protection schemes. The

way you decide whether or not to

0:53:000:53:06

produce food is if you can sell it

and that is the way it should be.

At

0:53:060:53:10

the moment, we all benefit from

being part of the single market but

0:53:100:53:13

that is good change. We don't know

what tariffs are going to be in

0:53:130:53:16

place. I think there is a genuine

risk of food prices going up. In

0:53:160:53:26

Norfolk and Suffolk 41% of the

people that do the seafood

0:53:260:53:29

processing are from the EU. Without

them there to deliver this service,

0:53:290:53:35

it is inevitable that food prices

will increase.

Since we import far

0:53:350:53:43

more food than we export, if what we

say about tariffs is true, it will

0:53:430:53:46

hit the imports far harder than it

will hit exports and it will

0:53:460:53:50

encourage the British farming sector

to grow.

It will still mean an

0:53:500:53:55

increase in the price of food.

Not

necessarily. We produce 60% of our

0:53:550:54:01

own food. It has been a bad thing.

Having a situation where we can

0:54:010:54:06

actually control our own industry

rather than having to obey rules

0:54:060:54:09

fungal disease is a good thing for

British farming.

0:54:090:54:21

It all started seven months ago when

the Cambridgeshire MP Stephen

0:54:220:54:26

Berkley raised questions about an

enterprise was being run. An enquiry

0:54:260:54:34

was set up. The government froze

nearly £38 million which should have

0:54:340:54:40

gone there while the investigation

took place. Some businesses may have

0:54:400:54:42

suffered. Last month, the mayor said

he should take over a report by the

0:54:420:54:55

National Audit Office is expected

later this month. The mayor has

0:54:550:55:03

acknowledged he and the LEP do not

see eye to eye and he would like to

0:55:030:55:06

see a shared executive.

We are in

the situation we are in and the

0:55:060:55:11

money is not available and that

means we have got to deal with the

0:55:110:55:14

problems. We are trying to sort this

situation. We want to sort the

0:55:140:55:19

situation. The options have been put

forward. What we are trying to do is

0:55:190:55:24

make sure the money comes from

government into the business and the

0:55:240:55:29

surrounding area. We are trained to

do the right thing and move on.

0:55:290:55:37

The chairman of the LEP couldn't

join us today but all that he is

0:55:370:55:43

confident the LEP has been compliant

since July and has nothing to add to

0:55:430:55:46

what he said last month when he was

asked if he was embarrassed about

0:55:460:55:49

the situation.

I am not embarrassed

by it at all. They should be

0:55:490:55:54

embarrassed. They should be

embarrassed by causing this

0:55:540:55:59

situation and causing the problems

they have cause. Our position is

0:55:590:56:02

straightforward. There is no grounds

for the proposition. Why would we be

0:56:020:56:09

embarrassed?

Do we need a LEP

one-day mayor?

It might be a good

0:56:090:56:15

idea if they became one. When the

idea was brought forward, which was

0:56:150:56:23

controversial, some people were

arguing that with the police and

0:56:230:56:26

Fire Commissioner, it would be five

layers of government. The idea was

0:56:260:56:32

that the local enterprise

partnership eventually became the

0:56:320:56:36

bureaucracy, the infrastructure and

the funding for a directly elected

0:56:360:56:39

mayor, that should be the direction

of travel. It has not been gripped

0:56:390:56:44

with enough confidence and there

have been a look of -- a lot of

0:56:440:56:52

local opposition.

I actually think

that the chaotic way that the LEPs

0:56:520:57:00

setup goes to show this is

undemocratic and these chickens are

0:57:000:57:03

now coming home to roost.

The mayor

is democratically elected.

You don't

0:57:030:57:13

have one in Norfolk but if the...

You would not mind therefore if he

0:57:130:57:21

took on the role?

I am uncomfortable

with the position of mayor because I

0:57:210:57:26

think we have too many layers of

government. What happens to our

0:57:260:57:31

democratically elected councillors?

This is millions and millions of

0:57:310:57:35

pounds coming into our area and it

is not being spent, it is not open,

0:57:350:57:40

not transparent. I am not confident

that the mayor is a position that we

0:57:400:57:46

should be having. We have a system

in place at the moment, counsellors,

0:57:460:57:51

borough councillors, county

councillors. But they are far more

0:57:510:57:54

in touch with what is happening in

their local communities. The overall

0:57:540:58:01

area of control for the mayor is

massive.

We do have problems with

0:58:010:58:06

LEPs across the region? I think they

vary.

0:58:060:58:14

There are bigger problems with the

Greater Cambridge and Peterborough

0:58:140:58:16

one. The National office have worked

with them for 16 years and it is not

0:58:160:58:21

likely launch enquiries and it has

done so in this case. The board

0:58:210:58:28

minutes of the LEP say there are

serious concerns there has been a

0:58:280:58:32

breakdown of confidence by central

government in the LEP and that is a

0:58:320:58:35

serious breakdown of confidence.

There is a case to answer. We will

0:58:350:58:39

await with interest the conclusion

of the report.

You think the one in

0:58:390:58:45

Norfolk and Suffolk has done quite

well but you are not quite sure.

0:58:450:58:49

Absolutely. I don't see a

significant impact of it. As I said

0:58:490:58:53

before, we have a low-income economy

and we have the biggest income

0:58:530:58:59

inequality in Norfolk and Suffolk

and so I don't see that the positive

0:58:590:59:02

impact that you are talking about

from the LEP.

I think both of you

0:59:020:59:08

say you may do without the LEP

eventually?

Not necessarily. I

0:59:080:59:13

personally would like to see it

under a democratically accountable

0:59:130:59:16

head. We have 414 councillors in

Norfolk and that is not including

0:59:160:59:23

the parish councillors. It feels a

bit top-heavy to me. I think we need

0:59:230:59:29

streamlining and reform and the LEP

should be under the control of a

0:59:290:59:34

democratically elected figure and I

personally like the idea of a

0:59:340:59:40

democratically elected mayor, but it

needs the support of local people.

0:59:400:59:49

There is the need for greater

infrastructure funding. We know how

0:59:490:59:52

terrible the roads are.

OK. Now for

our round-up of the political week

0:59:521:00:01

in 60 seconds.

1:00:011:00:12

Turmoil on Great Yarmouth Council.

Seven out of 12 Ukip councillors

1:00:131:00:18

defected to the Conservatives who

took overall control of the council

1:00:181:00:20

this week.

Very proud of the

achievements that Ukip made but I

1:00:201:00:26

feel now we are not getting any

direction from head office. And I

1:00:261:00:31

feel that I need to be with a party

that is good to follow the Brexit

1:00:311:00:36

fold.

Northamptonshire County

Council has banned new stationery

1:00:361:00:39

orders and colour printing according

to a leaked e-mail. MPs have held a

1:00:391:00:44

emergency meeting with the Local

Government Secretary about the

1:00:441:00:47

financial crisis. The Police

Commissioner for Essex has made a

1:00:471:00:51

plea for more money to help the

service tackle crime, particularly

1:00:511:00:56

terrorism. Roger Hurst was

addressing the national confidence

1:00:561:01:00

that conference of Police and Crime

Commissioners.

We are asking a lot

1:01:001:01:04

of the officers and staff at the

moment.

And Norwich MP Clive Lewis

1:01:041:01:10

came to the speaker 's attention and

not in a good way.

Mr Lewis...

I am

1:01:101:01:20

sure what is on your iPhone is

important but your question is of

1:01:201:01:24

greater importance. Get in there,

man.

1:01:241:01:31

You MPs just love that. Being told

off by the speaker.

1:01:311:01:40

The police thing is an interesting

thing because they are reaching a

1:01:401:01:45

point now where they don't feel they

are doing the job well enough.

I was

1:01:451:01:51

always slightly sceptical about it

because to me it felt a little bit

1:01:511:01:54

like trying to do it on the cheap.

They weren't cheap. That's the

1:01:541:01:58

problem.

It partly depends on the

kind of philosophy of the top man or

1:01:581:02:04

woman, the chief cancelled, and we

had a chief cancelled that believed

1:02:041:02:09

in them passionately and now we have

one that does not. I like police

1:02:091:02:14

officers that can chase people and

arrest people.

The point we are

1:02:141:02:18

making with Roger Hurst was actually

that they cannot plan for the

1:02:181:02:21

future. It is all about intelligence

work.

Absolutely and without the PC

1:02:211:02:27

SO being there in the community,

they are going to miss that

1:02:271:02:30

intelligence. For many of our

communities, they are the only

1:02:301:02:35

visible faces that they see.

In

Norfolk, they are very clear about

1:02:351:02:44

saying, there will be 81 extra

constables who will be beat

1:02:441:02:47

officers.

Well, we haven't seen

that. The changing face of crime is

1:02:471:02:53

going to be...

It's only just

started.

Let's end there. That is

1:02:531:03:00

all. You can watch this player on

iPlayer -- programme on iPlayer.

1:03:001:03:05

to support.

1:03:061:03:07

All right, and at that point

we have to end it there.

1:03:071:03:10

My thanks to Rosena and Andrew,

and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:101:03:12

It's been a tricky

week for Theresa May -

1:03:121:03:15

again, you might think.

1:03:151:03:15

She's lost a Cabinet minister

and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:151:03:18

which did little for party unity,

to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:181:03:21

vote on Brexit and yet more reports

of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:211:03:24

this time apparently over housing.

1:03:241:03:26

So, is the Prime Minister's time

in office going with a bang

1:03:261:03:28

or more of a whimper?

1:03:281:03:30

Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:301:03:31

and the entirely unscientific

Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:311:03:33

to Conservative-held Surrey,

to find out.

1:03:331:03:35

ALL:

Three, two, one.

1:03:351:03:38

# Ignite the light

and let it shine...#

1:03:381:03:44

It's a tale of lit fuses, plots,

conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:451:03:48

but enough of the recent goings

on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:481:03:52

it's firework night here

in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:521:03:56

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

1:03:561:03:58

Yes or no?

1:03:581:03:59

# Baby you're a firework...#

1:03:591:04:05

With all the scandals in Government

at the moment

1:04:051:04:07

and Brexit seems to be dragging on

a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:071:04:10

So, at the moment, I don't think

she is in control.

1:04:101:04:14

She's too many people sniping

at her back, really.

1:04:161:04:20

Do you think Theresa

May's in control?

1:04:201:04:21

I think she's in control.

1:04:211:04:23

She's in a good job

having a tough time.

1:04:231:04:25

No, I don't.

1:04:251:04:26

I think she's a mess.

1:04:261:04:27

Even when you read her body language

when she's being interviewed

1:04:271:04:30

by people, she doesn't

seem like she's in control.

1:04:301:04:33

I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:331:04:37

I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:391:04:43

I do think she's struggling but,

I still hope, still think she has

1:04:431:04:46

a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:461:04:49

The Queen is England's role.

1:04:491:04:52

It's her birth right.

1:04:521:04:54

She is England's role

of this country.

1:04:541:04:57

I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:04:571:05:00

I don't think there's anyone

who could do a better job.

1:05:001:05:03

I think she's had a bit of

a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:031:05:06

I think she could have done better.

1:05:061:05:08

The money's not going

to where it needs to go.

1:05:081:05:10

I think she should resign, really.

1:05:101:05:12

I feel a bit sorry

for her, actually.

1:05:121:05:15

I think she's been witch-hunted

a little bit.

1:05:151:05:16

She's doing her best.

1:05:161:05:20

With everything that's

going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:201:05:22

moment, I think the Conservative

Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:221:05:26

Very disappointed.

1:05:261:05:28

Well, you get bickering in all parts

not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:281:05:34

And that's just sort

of par for the course.

1:05:341:05:36

But I'm sure she'll

hold everybody together

1:05:361:05:39

despite the current difficulties.

1:05:391:05:41

The Tories weren't in control

when they had the referendum

1:05:411:05:43

in the first place for the euro.

1:05:431:05:46

We've had two years

of complete chaos.

1:05:461:05:48

I don't see an end to it.

1:05:481:05:52

Well, I seem to have

acquired a few new friends.

1:05:521:05:54

The oohs and ahs are

over and so the moodbox

1:05:541:05:57

and the result is...

1:05:571:06:01

No.

1:06:011:06:02

The majority of people

here in Guildford

1:06:021:06:04

don't think Theresa May

is in control.

1:06:041:06:06

CHEERING

1:06:071:06:10

That was Ellie with the entirely

unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:101:06:13

to Bushy Hill Junior School

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:131:06:20

Let's put the Sorbol question to our

panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:201:06:24

seasoned Westminster watchers. Is

Theresa May in control of her

1:06:241:06:27

Government at the moment or is all

of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:271:06:33

swimming around loosening her grip?

Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:331:06:37

All Prime Ministers have a degree of

control. They retain the power much

1:06:371:06:44

tat wrongage as we saw with her

reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:441:06:48

her MPs but she did it. You can't be

fully in control of these situations

1:06:481:06:53

in effectively what is a hung

Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:531:06:56

in the election she would have the

authority to do what she wanted. She

1:06:561:07:00

could float over something like

this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:001:07:04

say she's perfectly suited for it,

the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:041:07:08

goer, to sort it out. It is much

more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:081:07:12

think she will be able to get a full

grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:121:07:15

things that need to happen that will

happen. I remember with back to

1:07:151:07:20

basics and John Major, that equally

vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:201:07:24

basics about? It was still running

months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:241:07:30

minister having an affair. This is

different. I can see it will be

1:07:301:07:34

impossible for her to fully get to

grips with it.

Does it provide an

1:07:341:07:38

opportunity for Theresa May to be

seen to be taking really serious

1:07:381:07:41

action, trying to root out a bad

culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:411:07:45

get some political credit for it?

That opportunity was available to

1:07:451:07:49

her all of last week and she hasn't

taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:491:07:55

is the near complete breakdown in

discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:551:07:58

Tory Party. It is extraordinary you

have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:07:581:08:03

not supporting their colleagues.

Ministers and former ministers

1:08:031:08:07

giving interviews in which they slag

off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:071:08:10

an absolute unholy mess. There is no

sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:101:08:15

has any particular solution. I think

we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:151:08:19

her in terms of finding a solution.

How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:191:08:23

like this where you're talking about

apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:231:08:31

retrospective examination of

potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:311:08:34

longer too historic for somebody to

dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:341:08:38

or may not have happened to them. It

is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:381:08:42

being battered around by events.

Where does this story go next?

I

1:08:421:08:49

think the whip's office on every

party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:491:08:53

Democrats, SNP all have their own

whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:531:08:56

be the place of it really. This is

because, where do we draw the line?

1:08:561:09:01

Going forward what mechanisms are

put in place to top this helping

1:09:011:09:05

again. To take allegations

seriously, report them and

1:09:051:09:09

investigate them independently. Or

is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:091:09:14

into the past retrospective, who

knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:141:09:19

Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow

Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:191:09:23

the Labour Party leader know about

Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:231:09:28

promoted him? Theresa May is unable

to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:281:09:32

simply too weak. I asked this of

Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:321:09:37

not more front-foot the on this.

They said they would be if they

1:09:371:09:41

possibly could be. She's running a

minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:411:09:45

seen to be going after a witch-hunt

on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:451:09:50

goes on. Enof thebly what the whips

new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:501:09:58

knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did

the same thing on Andrew Marr.

They

1:09:581:10:07

are being precise about the fact

they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:071:10:13

Newton said she heard no allegations

about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:131:10:17

in charge of rather than rumours

about any other Tories.

Amber Rudd

1:10:171:10:23

say, I do not recognise the more

lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:231:10:29

less lurid once? So, this smells

very, very bad indeed.

Jeremy

1:10:291:10:33

Corbyn's going to have to answer

some of these questions as well?

1:10:331:10:39

Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red

herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:391:10:44

vote out for the Government

fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:441:10:46

They are not there, it is one of the

problems. They are not there to be

1:10:461:10:50

moral guides to these MPs. They are

there to win votes for the

1:10:501:10:54

Government or the opposition if that

becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:541:10:59

with MPs to make sure they get out

and vote. Of course they knew

1:10:591:11:02

virtually everything. But whether

they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:021:11:07

guard yawns in these situations, I

don't think they were. It was not

1:11:071:11:11

part of their job. Maybe you need

moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:111:11:15

whips.

Normally, less than

three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:151:11:20

what we'd been talking about.

Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:201:11:23

that's set for November 22nd, is

that an opportunity for the

1:11:231:11:26

Government to seize back control of

the story?

Philip Hammond may be

1:11:261:11:31

glad we're not spending too much

time talking about the budget. It

1:11:311:11:34

should be an opportunity for the

Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:341:11:39

a line under all of this. I think

one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:391:11:43

of this so-called scandal for the

Government to manage is knowing

1:11:431:11:47

quite how long it will run. In the

normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:471:11:50

steam after a couple of weeks. But

there are so many potential gayses

1:11:501:11:55

that could come out, it might run

longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:551:11:59

expenses scandal. But there is an

opportunity at the budget to reset

1:11:591:12:03

the' again da. I just don't think

Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:031:12:08

he's a very caution Chancellor. At

the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:081:12:11

Theresa May's leadership is so weak

it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:111:12:17

do anything particularly dram attic

why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:171:12:22

budget where they will be hoping not

to make any mistakes.

You say there

1:12:221:12:26

is disagreement in the Cabinet about

what should be in the budget?

1:12:261:12:32

Disagreement between the Chancellor

and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:321:12:38

witch-hunt is hiding a huge story

which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:381:12:42

between Number Ten and number 11.

Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:421:12:45

bear to be in the same room with

each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:451:12:50

in the budget. It is coming down to

housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:501:12:54

be the centrepiece of the budget.

They have to get more houses built.

1:12:541:13:00

Philip Hammond wands that bee

deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:001:13:05

are borrow up to 50 billion

merchandise more for the Government

1:13:051:13:08

to build for themselves.

1:13:081:13:09

That's all for today.

1:13:091:13:10

There's no Sunday Politics

next weekend

1:13:101:13:13

while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:131:13:14

but I'll be back here at 11am

on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:141:13:17

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:171:13:22

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