19/11/2017 Sunday Politics East


19/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Morning everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your guide

to all the big stories that

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are shaping politics this weekend,

and a few of the smaller ones too.

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Philip Hammond is getting ready

to deliver his latest Budget

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on Wednesday and he's not short

of advice - to spend more,

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show restraint, even

to stop being an Eyore -

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but can he change the direction

of the country and his government?

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Conservative Party darling

Jacob Rees-Mogg has

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some advice of his own.

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He thinks the Chancellor

is being far too gloomy about Brexit

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- he joins me live to explain why.

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The former Leave campaign leader,

Gisela Stuart, will be here debating

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with pro-EU campaigner

Alastair Campbell, after taking

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a trip to her native Germany

to speak to businesses

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about Brexit.

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And, as we wait to find out what's

on the menu for this week's budget,

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we're in a diner off

the A1 in Peterborough,

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finding out who people most trust

with the economy -

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Philip Hammond or John McDonnell?

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Here in the east, new homes for old,

but could regeneration

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means fewer green spaces?

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And hopes the budget might improve

transport links across our region.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me for for all of it,

three journalists who've promised

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not to show off like Michael Gove

by using any long economicky words -

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although I'm not sure they really

know that many anyway -

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it's Tom Newton Dunn,

Gaby Hinsliff and Iain Martin.

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Let's take a look at the big

political stories making the news

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this Sunday morning,

and as you might expect there's

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plenty of speculation

about what might or not might be

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in Philip Hammond's Budget.

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The Chancellor is promising a big

investment in new technology,

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including driverless cars -

which could be on the road by 2021.

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He's been interviewed

in the Sunday Times,

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where he talks about plans to reach

the target of building

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300,000 homes every year,

or the equivalent of a city

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the size of Leeds.

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That paper speculates that he's

attempting to turn from "fiscal

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Phil" into "hopeful Hammond"

as he tries to set out

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a vision for the country,

not just a list of numbers.

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The Sunday Telegraph thinks that

Mr Hammond is planning to offer

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a pay rise to nurses as part

of a bid to take on Labour.

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But that hasn't impressed

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

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He's spoken to a number of papers

and is calling for an emergency

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budget to invest in public services

and help struggling households.

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So that's a taste of what you might

hear on Wednesday and Mr Hammond

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and Mr McDonnell have both been

appearing this morning

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on the Andrew Marr Show.

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I think Britain has a very

bright future ahead of it,

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and we have to embrace

the opportunities that

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a post-Brexit world will offer.

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They will be opportunities that

are based on huge change,

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huge technological evolution.

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It's not always going to be easy,

but the British people have shown

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time and time again that we're up

for these challenges.

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For many people out there,

this is a depression.

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We've had people whose wages

have been cut by 10%.

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Nurses, for example.

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We've had people who are now...

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1.25 million food parcels handed out

in the sixth richest

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country in the world.

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That's what I call a recession

for large numbers of people.

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We will be talking about Labour and

their economic policies in a moment,

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but let's start with what we might

expect from the budget. We will talk

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to our panel of political observers.

Philip Hammond is under pressure to

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set out a bold vision and reset the

government's programme. Can we

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expect that?

No, we can't. We have

heard enough from the Chancellor

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across various broadcast and his

article in the Sunday Times. I think

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we will not be getting a bold

budget. His precise words short... A

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short time ago were a balanced

budget. Some Tory hearts will think.

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They desperately want something to

go out and shout about, something to

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capture people's imagination, and do

big and bold things, like how on

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earth are they going to build those

new 300,000 houses a year? There are

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good reasons why he has chosen what

appears to be a pretty staid,

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Conservative budget, and that is

that they are probably unable to get

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anything bold through Parliament.

His capital is so low among Tory

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MPs. If you have a minority

government, it is tricky.

We have

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seen ministers on programmes like

this in the last few weeks putting

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in the bids for what they would like

spending on, whether it be payment

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for nurses or parliament. Would he

struggled to get something radical

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through the Commons?

Big ideas cost

money. That's the problem. Bold

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ideas are controversial. In some

ways, Tory MPs are asking their

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Chancellor to do the impossible.

Government is already doing

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something big and bold, which is

Brexit. That has implications for

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how much money is available, how

many risks you want to take with

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everything else. What is crucial is

that he demonstrates a reputation

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for competence. The reputation that

the Conservative government has for

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economic competence, that many

people prefer them to Labour on the

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issue of economic competence. The

worst thing he could do is come up

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with a big, bold idea that

unravelled quickly. What they

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absolutely don't want is to come up

with an exciting idea that falls

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apart three days after the budget.

He is under pressure from

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Brexiteers, who are suspicious of

him. Does he have to offer them

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something?

Part of his problem is he

has to offer so many different

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people different things. This is

Philip Hammond trying to be and

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dynamic.

It is hard to tell

sometimes.

At least in theoretical

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terms. His longer-term difficulty is

that, if you look at the economic

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cycle, we are getting to a point

where we are probably overdue, if

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you put Brexit to one side, overdue

some kind of correction or downturn,

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if you look what has happened to

asset prices globally. What will be

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worrying for the Treasury is, just

as everyone is saying we should turn

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on the taps and build this or that,

we might be at the top of a cycle,

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and the Treasury will want to lose

something in the armoury in terms of

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probably growing the deficit if

there are economic difficulties in

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the next two years, and then there

is Brexit as well.

It sounds

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impossible.

I think so. Talking to

his friends and colleagues over the

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last few days, he had to make a

call, which was precisely how much

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can I get away with, with my

political capital being as low as it

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is, with the mixed problems he had

at the last budget, and a lot of the

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party disliking his approach to

Brexit. He is damned if he is,

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damned if he doesn't. Universal

Credit, we are expecting a reduction

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in the time it takes to wait,

business rates, affected by high

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inflation... I think we will see a

problem fixing budget which will

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probably do quite a lot of important

spadework in many areas.

We will

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pick up on some of this later in the

programme.

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Let's speak now to the Conservative

MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week

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he helpfully launched an alternative

"budget for Brexit" and advised

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the Chancellor to be less gloomy

about the consequences

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of leaving the EU.

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Thank you for joining us. Your

alternative budget is pretty

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radical. Almost half corporation

tax, Cap Stamp duty to help the

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London market. It seems you are

advocating the opposite from what we

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will hear from your Chancellor on

Wednesday.

There are two parts to

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the proposals I suggested. One is

that we should show that after we

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have left the European Union, the UK

is open to the rest of the world. It

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is about opening up to the rest of

the world. Secondly, looking at the

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modelling that has been done by the

Treasury and some other forecasters,

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which has been so comprehensively

wrong. The forecasts made about what

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would happen after Brexit have

turned out to be hopelessly false.

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The team at Cardiff University have

done some modelling based on the

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classical economic principles and

what happens if you move to free

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trade that would be very positive

for the economy.

You are predicting

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a Brexit dividend of £135 billion,

which sounds fantastic. Why are you

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right, and everybody else, including

the Bank of England and the

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Institute for Fiscal Studies, why

are they all wrong?

It depends on

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the type of modelling. The modelling

that have been done by the Treasury

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have been based on gravity models,

which work on the basis of the

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nearness of the market and the size

of the economy you are trading with.

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These have been wrong in the past.

They predicted that if we joined the

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euro, trade would grow by 300%. That

was then revised down to 200%, but

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it is fantasyland. The model I am

working on, by Sir Patrick Minford,

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who has a record of getting these

things right. He was right about the

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exchange rate mechanism, right about

the euro.

Being right in the past

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doesn't mean you are right about the

future. Why do you think the

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Treasury will not pick up the same

numbers, if this is so obvious to

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you?

I think the Treasury was

humiliated by the errors in its

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forecast prior to Brexit, and is

trying to defend its position. The

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short-term economic consequences of

a vote to leave was one of the most

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dishonest documents to come out of

the Treasury, purely a piece of

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political propaganda. They are

wounded by that and sticking to the

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same script, rather than looking at

other forecasts and other experts.

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You think the governor of the Bank

of England is an enemy of Brexit,

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and it sounds like you think the

Treasury is opposed to it. As the

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Chancellor fallen under their spell

as well, and been persuaded to be an

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enemy of Brexit?

I have admiration

the Chancellor, but George Osborne,

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his predecessor, was the architect

of Project Fear. He was too close to

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the Bank of England and lost his

independence. That is what needs to

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change. It is an opportunity in the

budget for Philip Hammond to show he

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is putting aside the Treasury's

mistakes in the past. It is very

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encouraging what he is saying this

morning, about a more positive

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approach to Brexit.

Lord Lawson has

accused Philip Hammond of being very

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close to sabotage on Brexit. He says

we need a can-do man at the Treasury

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and not a prophet of doom.

I think

that Philip Hammond is an

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exceptionally intelligent man, a

very thoughtful man. It is not a bad

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thing to have a Chancellor who is

serious minded and steady, rather

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than one who is a showman and uses

the Exchequer to interfere in

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absolutely everything.

I have a lot

of confidence in the Chancellor.

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When you launched your budget for

Brexit, you said the government has

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to deliver the £350 million for the

NHS that was delivered during the

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referendum, even though you didn't

think that promise should have been

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made. Is that something they now

need to deliver wrong?

It is. This

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only happens once we have left.

Politicians have to recognise that

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voters don't look at the small print

of electoral policies. If you put

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£350 million on the side of a bus

and say it may be available for the

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NHS, it is reasonable for people to

think that is a promise. Brexit was

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won by the Leave campaign, so it it

is important that they deliver on

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that promise. Politicians must keep

faith with voters and deliver on

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implied promises, as well as ones

that are set out in detail.

The

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Cabinet will move on to talk about

the Brexit bill this week, and we

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understand they may need to come up

with more money to satisfy EU

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demands. The more money spent on

that is less money available for

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things like spending on the NHS. Are

you worried about the size of the

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exit bill?

You have your finger on

the important point. The government

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will have to choose whether to give

lots of money to the European Union,

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or whether to spend money on UK

public services, and that will be

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part of the negotiation. On all

these issues, it comes down to

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choice is the government makes. I

would encourage the government to

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choose our own domestic public

services rather than expensive

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schemes in continent or Europe.

Why

are you advocating that the

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government should spend up to £2.5

billion on a no deal scenario?

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It is important that we are ready to

leave in the event of no deal. If we

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left with no deal we would on

current figures still be saving the

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remains of 18 billion so we would be

saving 15 and a half billion against

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paying for the financial framework.

To show we're ready on day one would

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be money well spent and most would

be needed any way. We need to have

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new customs arrangements in place

even if it is not for a no deal

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situation.

There are suggestions

that the Government might back down

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on the idea of putting the time and

date of leaving the EU on the face

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of the bill. Would you be Exxon

certained if that was -- concerned

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if that was remove prd the bill?

It

is in Article 50, unless Article 50

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is extended by the Council of Europe

we leave on 20th March 2019 and it

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makes accepts that should be the

same in -- sense that should be in

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same in domestic law. But that is a

secondary concern from my point of

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view. It is important that we leave

on that date.

Stay there if you

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would.

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We're joined in the studio

by the former minister

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Stephen Hammond.

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He's no relation to the Chancellor,

but he is a member

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of the Treasury Select Committee

and he's one of the Tory MPs named

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as "Brexit mutineers"

by the Daily Telegraph

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this week - lucky him.

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I'm assured you're no relation to

the Chancellor. Let's just pick up

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on what Jacob Rees Mogg was saying.

How important is it to you as a

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rebel that the Government does put

the date on.

I agree with Jacob it

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is in the Article 50 process, the

key reason it is important is the

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negotiations look like they're going

to be tricky and longer than we

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expected and it may well be that we

are still negotiating up until March

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2019. We could have a short couple

of weeks period of extension. Why do

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harm to the economy by falling out

on a precise time? If those

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negotiations need to be extended.

They won't go on for more than a

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couple of weeks, because there will

be elections in Europe in June 2019

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and there is no chance of a new

commission or Parliament dealing

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with this. Giving it flexibility and

with this flexibility the government

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said it wants flexibility in

negotiations, why give all the

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advantage to the other side? Part of

that was evidenced yesterday by

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somebody suggesting they will ask

for the Margaret Thatcher rebate to

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be suspended. That is as a result of

putting the date on the bill.

You

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did not agree with the Brexit

committee and think it is important

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that we set the date and time?

I

think it is perfectly reasonable to

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set the date and time and I think

these negotiations fill the time

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available. The United States and

Australia agreed a free trade deal

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between April 2003 and February

2004. These things don't need to be

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interm Knabl if both sides want to

agree. I think the British

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electorate would be very concerned

if nearly three years after the vote

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to leave, we still hadn't left. I

think most people expected that we

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would have left by now. The

negotiations realistically to get

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through the approval of the European

Parliament and so on need to be

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completed by at the end of next

year, going up to the last minute I

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don't think is real is tick.

To move

on to talk about a trade deal and

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getting that done, the EU need to

agree to move on and we need to

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settle the divorce, cabinet are

going to be talking about the amount

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that needs to be spent on that,

Stephen what manned, are you happy

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for the Government to offer more?

I

hope that the Government will stick

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to the Florence speech in terms of

ensuring that we fulfil our

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liabilities and obligations. I'm not

clear exactly whether that is 20

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billion or 40 billion and I'm not

sure the government is. If part of

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the divorce bill is then some

settlement for getting the trade

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deal, we will need to examine that

carefully.

Jacob Rees Mogg, is this

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that might spark another war in the

party if the cabinet suggest they're

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prepared to pay more?

I think we

need to go back to what you said,

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that the - the EU said they want us

to settle the money first. The

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Government doesn't need to follow

that. They need our money. If we

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don't pay any money for the final 21

months of the framework, the EU has

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about 20 billion pounds gap in its

finances and it has no legal

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requirement to borrow. So it

insolvents or the Germans and the

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others pay more. So our position on

money is very strong and we

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shouldn't fall into the trap of

thinking just because Mr Barnier

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said it it is as if he has received

tablets of stone like Moses, he has

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not.

There is a sense that the

Government feels a mo generous offer

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would set a good tone, the kind of

approach that Jacob Rees Mogg

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suggests would not make for smooth

relations.

It probably wouldn't. But

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we have to be clear what we are

paying for and what we are getting.

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No one is suggesting we should hand

over money without proper scrutiny.

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It may be appropriate to put money

to facilitate international trade to

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secure jobs. We have to be careful

about the analysis about what the

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scale and size of Brexit dividend is

and the size of payments will be.

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You mustn't confuse gross and net

and there is disagreement about some

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of the numbers.

On that, Jacob Rees

Mogg in his budget for Brexit

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suggests in five years time we would

have a 135 billion Brexit bonus. Do

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you think it is real is tick.

He is

using some analysis that has some

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flaws. It is predicting a price drop

in the United Kingdom of 10%. Tariff

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drops will only be 3 or 4%. It is

predicting huge productivity gains,

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the likes of which we have not seen

in 20 years. Thirdly, despite his

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view on modellers there is evidence

that they weren't and if you go into

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the detail of the analysis, some of

the data is 14 years out of date.

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Jacob Rees Mogg, you're being

hopelessly optimistic?

I don't think

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that right. I think the fall in

prices comes because you make the

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economy more competitive and you

take away tariffs which reduces the

0:21:510:21:55

price of food by 20%. That is a big

reduction. Bear in mind that the

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biggest tariffs hit food, clothing

and foot wear that, harm the poorest

0:22:020:22:06

in society the most. The gains from

productivity come from is in

0:22:060:22:13

additional tariffs. Leading to other

saving and further investment I

0:22:130:22:21

think the modelling done by the

professor is as good as modelling

0:22:210:22:24

can be. That doesn't mean it is

infallible. The failure of gravity

0:22:240:22:30

model is well known.

Michael Gove

was accused of auditioning for the

0:22:300:22:37

job of Chancellor by using long

words. Do you know any good long

0:22:370:22:44

economic words?

I don't think that

we want to get into this type of

0:22:440:22:48

business actually. I think all

Conservatives and Steven and I very

0:22:480:22:52

much agree on this, want to show as

united a front as we can manage.

0:22:520:22:58

There are differences on some

aspects of policy, but in terms of

0:22:580:23:02

individuals we want to stand

together and support the best

0:23:020:23:04

interests of the government.

Thank

you.

0:23:040:23:10

Brexit Secretary David Davis

was in Berlin this week trying

0:23:100:23:12

to win the support of business

leaders there for a comprehensive

0:23:120:23:14

free trade deal with the EU.

0:23:140:23:16

He warned them against putting

'politics above prosperity'

0:23:160:23:19

and reportedly got a bit

of a frosty reception.

0:23:190:23:24

Well, the former Labour MP

Gisela Stuart was one of the leaders

0:23:240:23:27

of the Vote Leave referendum

campaign.

0:23:270:23:28

We travelled with Gisela to Germany

to meet the business leaders

0:23:280:23:31

she says will help secure a good

trade deal for the UK.

0:23:310:23:34

Here's her film.

0:23:340:23:37

I was born and brought up

in this part of Germany,

0:23:440:23:47

and although I've lived in the UK

for the past 40 years,

0:23:470:23:50

and represented the constituency

of Birmingham and Edgbaston for 20

0:23:500:23:54

years, my family still live here,

and I've kept many links.

0:23:540:23:59

I was chair of Vote Leave,

and together with only a handful

0:24:020:24:05

of other Labour MPs,

we campaigned to leave

0:24:050:24:07

the European Union because we

thought the country would be

0:24:070:24:10

better off outside.

0:24:100:24:12

It's hard to remember now, but back

in the 1970s, when we joined

0:24:120:24:15

the European Economic Community,

people thought that by joining

0:24:150:24:19

the club we would see the kind

of economic miracle Germany

0:24:190:24:23

experienced in the '70s back home.

0:24:230:24:26

The "Deutsche Wirtschaftswunder"

would come to Britain.

0:24:260:24:28

But, of course, it didn't.

0:24:280:24:33

Within a few short years

of the devastation of World War II,

0:24:350:24:38

Germany had emerged as

the largest economy in Europe.

0:24:380:24:41

Germany's extraordinary

success is down to

0:24:410:24:42

the pragmatism of its business.

0:24:420:24:47

German Mittelstand is family

dominated, forward-thinking,

0:24:470:24:52

long-term thinking, reliability,

are very important values.

0:24:520:24:58

Changing moods on a political

landscape and changing frameworks

0:24:580:25:00

are toxic for our way of doing

business, and we want

0:25:000:25:03

that to go away.

0:25:030:25:10

German business is not given

to making big political statements

0:25:100:25:15

out of step with government policy,

but talk to those in decision-making

0:25:150:25:18

positions, and it is clear

that they want to secure a good deal

0:25:180:25:21

with the United Kingdom.

0:25:210:25:24

BMW employs almost 90,000

people here in Germany,

0:25:240:25:27

and exports just under

1 million cars annually.

0:25:270:25:31

The UK is a vital market.

0:25:310:25:36

What we are really seeking right now

is more clarity, more certainty,

0:25:360:25:40

because in our cycle of investment,

cycle of development,

0:25:400:25:44

it's about a seven-year or so period

that we look at,

0:25:440:25:49

but we are now, of course, starting

to think about what comes next,

0:25:490:25:53

and what we need to see now

is what is going to be

0:25:530:25:56

the trading relationship,

how are the logistics going to look,

0:25:560:25:59

what is going to be

the requirements for people

0:25:590:26:01

moving across the continent?

0:26:010:26:03

Because all of these things

are important to us today.

0:26:030:26:06

And, by the way, they will be just

as important tomorrow.

0:26:060:26:09

Berlin is well aware that

if the European Commission

0:26:090:26:12

is allowed to put up trade barriers

against Britain, it will be

0:26:120:26:16

German business, German consumers

and German employees

0:26:160:26:18

who will suffer.

0:26:180:26:22

TRANSLATION:

I think it's very

important that we complete

0:26:220:26:24

the first phase successfully.

0:26:240:26:26

The first phase of the negotiations,

which looks at the financial

0:26:260:26:30

consequences of Great Britain

leaving the EU.

0:26:300:26:32

And then it's not a question

of punishment payments.

0:26:320:26:36

It's about when you are part

of a multilayer, contractual

0:26:360:26:38

obligation and you want to leave

that, then of course it takes

0:26:380:26:42

a whole lot of obligations

which you have to deal with,

0:26:420:26:45

so both sides are satisfied and can

live with the consequences.

0:26:450:26:54

It isn't everyone's interests

for the UK to part on good terms.

0:26:540:26:58

Of course there was going to be

upset when the UK voted to leave,

0:26:580:27:02

but creating uncertainty over

the terms of UK's exit will simply

0:27:020:27:05

have a disruptive effect

on exports to UK markets.

0:27:050:27:10

Far better to have a sensible,

amicable negotiation that results

0:27:100:27:14

both sides being able to trade

together and work

0:27:140:27:16

together post-Brexit.

0:27:160:27:23

Markus Krall is managing

director of Goetzpartners,

0:27:230:27:25

and heads the Financial

Institution Industry Group.

0:27:250:27:26

Is it true to say that,

if we negotiate Brexit well,

0:27:260:27:32

then a good Brexit can actually

strengthen the United Kingdom,

0:27:320:27:34

the European Union and Germany?

0:27:340:27:35

It's absolutely true.

0:27:350:27:37

I think that this

is about two things.

0:27:370:27:40

One, about proving that

free trade is possible

0:27:400:27:45

between a European Union that is

smaller and a former member country.

0:27:450:27:49

If you don't prove that free

trade is possible there,

0:27:490:27:52

then the question becomes,

what is Europe standing for?

0:27:520:27:56

Number two is, I also

believe the free trade,

0:27:560:28:01

free market and democratic and less

bureaucratic approach that Britain

0:28:010:28:05

has chosen as the path

into the future is a role

0:28:050:28:07

model for Europe.

0:28:070:28:10

The time has come both

for the United Kingdom

0:28:100:28:13

and for the EU to be more clear

about what kind of

0:28:130:28:16

deal we can achieve.

0:28:160:28:18

Both sides need to be bold.

0:28:180:28:20

As long as we remain open to free

trade and sensible co-operation,

0:28:200:28:24

we can arrive at something that

will benefit both sides.

0:28:240:28:29

But one thing's obvious -

if we are an open and free trading

0:28:290:28:33

economy, we've got one big

cheerleader on our side,

0:28:330:28:35

and that is German business.

0:28:350:28:41

That was Gisela Stuart

setting out her case

0:28:410:28:43

and we'll be hearing

from the opposite side

0:28:430:28:45

of the argument in the coming weeks.

0:28:450:28:47

Gisela Stuart joins us in the studio

now, as does Alastair Campbell.

0:28:470:28:49

He used to work for Tony Blair

in Number 10, set up

0:28:490:28:52

the New European Newspaper

to campaign against Brexit,

0:28:520:28:54

and is so pro-European that at this

year's Labour conference

0:28:540:28:56

he was heard playing Ode

to Joy on the bagpipes.

0:28:560:28:59

Welcome both of you.

0:28:590:29:04

We will start with your point in the

film, that you think the German

0:29:040:29:08

business once the EU to offer the UK

a generous deal because it is in

0:29:080:29:13

their interests, yet the president

of the German equivalent of the CBI

0:29:130:29:17

said that defending the single

market must be the priority for the

0:29:170:29:23

EU, and another says that the

cohesion of the remaining member

0:29:230:29:28

states remains the highest priority.

The president of the CBI just after

0:29:280:29:35

the referendum said that it would be

in nobody 's interest to introduce

0:29:350:29:40

tariffs and trade barriers. On the

UK side, I don't think there's a

0:29:400:29:48

full understanding that economic

interests are incredibly important,

0:29:480:29:51

that they are trying to cover

economic interests on the cohesion

0:29:510:29:59

of the 27. I think different

economic interests will raise the

0:29:590:30:03

head of different countries. The

German auto industry is as important

0:30:030:30:10

as the financial sector is here. The

banking crisis is far from over, but

0:30:100:30:16

the big riffs which were going on is

that the E U is losing its second

0:30:160:30:22

biggest net contributor. Countries

like Germany want a deal with the UK

0:30:220:30:27

that is a free open market. There

are other tensions in the EU that

0:30:270:30:33

wants to become more protectionist,

and that is a bad thing.

Looking at

0:30:330:30:37

the film there with the Jacob

Rees-Mogg interview. No matter what

0:30:370:30:45

side of leave you are, it is

delusional and all driven by wishful

0:30:450:30:51

thinking. You could find a

businessman who says Brexit will be

0:30:510:30:55

good for Germany. The vast bulk of

British businesses think this is a

0:30:550:30:59

disaster, as do the vast bulk of

European businesses. One of the

0:30:590:31:03

delusions on which they ran their

campaign is the idea that they need

0:31:030:31:08

us more than we need them. That is

not true.

Be you self about £80

0:31:080:31:15

billion more in goods and services

into the UK than we do to them, and

0:31:150:31:19

Germany has one of the biggest

deficits. It is in their interest.

0:31:190:31:24

Of course it is, but it is a myth

that they need us more than we need

0:31:240:31:29

them. The damage that will be done

to us, even with a good deal. Let's

0:31:290:31:36

be frank, where these negotiations

are, Theresa May is either going to

0:31:360:31:42

end up with a bad deal and dumber or

no Deal. A bad deal is bad, and a no

0:31:420:31:48

deal is a catastrophe.

You are

setting up ideas that which were not

0:31:480:31:55

there to begin with and knocking

them down. Delusional.

35 billion,

0:31:550:32:02

the Brexit bonus.

If we had a

referendum, it was a democratic

0:32:020:32:07

decision. I know you don't like it

and that a lot of business would

0:32:070:32:11

have preferred to stay with the

status quo. We have had the

0:32:110:32:16

referendum. Undermining political

institutions is in no one's

0:32:160:32:21

interests. It is functioning

democracies which lead to economic

0:32:210:32:27

stability.

Theresa May fought an

election Inc on a hard Brexit that

0:32:270:32:33

was rejected.

As we heard from BMW,

there is uncertainty for business.

0:32:330:32:47

There will be elections, European

elections, in 2019. There will be a

0:32:470:32:52

change of the Commission and the

parliament. We have a narrow window

0:32:520:32:57

to implement the mandate for the

referendum which Parliament voted

0:32:570:33:00

for. So rather than you undermining

this country, why don't you work

0:33:000:33:07

together to get the best deal?

Because we totally disagree.

You

0:33:070:33:12

don't want a good deal?

I'm in

favour of a good deal, and I could

0:33:120:33:18

give them some advice as to how they

get a good deal. First, you have a

0:33:180:33:23

cabinet that has an agreed strategy.

18 months in, they don't have that.

0:33:230:33:29

I am not undermining a deal. I am

continuing to pose questions about

0:33:290:33:34

what they are trying to do and how

they are trying to do it. This is

0:33:340:33:41

democracy. Democracy is the ability

for Parliament, which is not doing

0:33:410:33:45

its job properly, and the public, to

keep scrutinising, and if they want

0:33:450:33:50

to change their mind, having the

right to do that.

You were trying to

0:33:500:33:56

encourage the Taoiseach yesterday to

play hardball with the UK.

I am on

0:33:560:34:01

the side of the UK, and I am worried

that if we go down the path that we

0:34:010:34:06

are being taken down, and Theresa

May and Boris Johnson and the rest

0:34:060:34:10

of them, this shambolic path, we are

going to do fundamental, lasting

0:34:100:34:16

damage to the country we love. I

don't care about the Civil Aviation

0:34:160:34:20

Authority. I care about Britain. --

I don't care about the European

0:34:200:34:26

Union. If every lorry going into the

UK today was stopped for just two

0:34:260:34:35

minutes, we would create an instant

17 mile traffic jam. These people

0:34:350:34:40

just don't care...

I am not these

people! Let us not conflate... You

0:34:400:34:50

either decide that you are

implementing a democratic decision

0:34:500:34:54

of a referendum that was called and

over 17 million voted.

You will not

0:34:540:35:00

stop me debating it. Just as Nigel

Farage...

Stop talking about Nigel

0:35:000:35:09

Farrell Raj. Vote Leave was not

Nigel Farage. There is no desire in

0:35:090:35:19

Germany to punish the United

Kingdom.

They are behaving

0:35:190:35:25

reasonably.

There is a battle of

protectionism and free market going

0:35:250:35:29

on. If we implement this properly,

give businesses the kind of

0:35:290:35:35

incentives they want, we can get a

good deal. So you want a bad deal?

0:35:350:35:41

You are driven by wishful thinking.

Gisela Stuart, you are saying that

0:35:410:35:48

business will intervene to prevent

things like tariffs being put in

0:35:480:35:51

place? They are leaving it a bit

late to put pressure on.

You will

0:35:510:35:56

find that business is laying out the

kind of things they need to get

0:35:560:36:00

those deals. I can find as much

fault with the speed of the

0:36:000:36:04

progress, but what I really do

resent is that you are actually

0:36:040:36:09

encouraging other countries to

undermine...

Know I am not! I spoke

0:36:090:36:17

out in support of the Irish

Taoiseach because I spent a lot of

0:36:170:36:21

time with Tony Blair and his team on

the Good Friday Agreement. The

0:36:210:36:24

people who are driving this hard

Brexit without thinking it through,

0:36:240:36:29

still no answer on how you do Brexit

in our island without a hard border.

0:36:290:36:34

I think the Irish Taoiseach is right

to call out the government on the

0:36:340:36:43

incompetence and the fact they have

not thought it through.

You accept

0:36:430:36:46

the result of the referendum and the

fact that we will be leaving the EU?

0:36:460:36:52

I accept the result of the

referendum, but I do not accept that

0:36:520:36:57

the country will definitely leave,

because the country is entitled to

0:36:570:37:01

change its mind. As the chaos and

costs mount, the public is entitled

0:37:010:37:06

to change its mind and will change

its mind.

There is no evidence at

0:37:060:37:12

the moment.

Come out with me!

Allow

me to finish the sentence. There is

0:37:120:37:21

a changing of mind happening, a

crystallisation. Unlike you, I have

0:37:210:37:27

fought five elections and I have won

five elections. I have probably

0:37:270:37:32

spoken to more people like you.

You

may do, I'm just saying, come out on

0:37:320:37:38

the road with me...

40% of the

population in the middle just want

0:37:380:37:44

us to get on with it. What that film

showed is that if you want to make

0:37:440:37:49

it a self-fulfilling prophecy that

it's a disaster, which I don't. I

0:37:490:37:55

want to implement a deal that is

good for British jobs. The rest of

0:37:550:38:01

the world is changing in terms of

technology. Currently, Germany

0:38:010:38:08

hasn't even got a government, and

nobody is laughing about that.

And

0:38:080:38:13

they are stable without a

government!

Let's leave it there.

0:38:130:38:18

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:180:38:20

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be looking at the latest

0:38:200:38:23

opinion polls and we'll bring

you the results of our moodbox

0:38:230:38:26

asking whether Phllip Hammond

or John McDonnell should be running

0:38:260:38:28

the economy.

0:38:280:38:38

Hello welcome to

Sunday Politics East.

0:38:380:38:42

Later in the programme

we take a trip from east

0:38:420:38:46

to west to see how

the Chancellor could make

0:38:460:38:48

a difference in the budget

on

0:38:480:38:50

Wednesday.

0:38:500:38:51

In Great Yarmouth we are right

here out on the edge of

0:38:510:38:54

England and without that major

infrastructure investment we will

0:38:540:39:00

stay just as we are, without

the possibility of expanding.

0:39:000:39:02

With us this week,

Dave Hodgson, the elected

0:39:020:39:04

mayor for Bedford,

and Mark Lancaster, defence

0:39:040:39:06

minister and MP for

Milton Keynes.

0:39:060:39:08

50 years after it was established

as a new town, Milton Keynes wants

0:39:080:39:11

to revamp seven housing estates.

0:39:110:39:13

The scheme would cost £1 billion.

0:39:130:39:20

There will be a local referendum,

believed to be the first

0:39:200:39:23

of its kind, to be held

before work starts.

0:39:230:39:25

The scheme could include the

building of up to 1250 new homes.

0:39:250:39:31

Some of those could be built

on existing green spaces.

0:39:310:39:33

Here's Andy Holmes.

0:39:330:39:36

Barry Wilde on

0:39:360:39:38

Fullers Slade estate,

which is surrounded by a large

0:39:380:39:40

green space.

0:39:400:39:42

I've come to see why it's now

at risk of redevelopment.

0:39:420:39:45

Good morning, Barry.

0:39:450:39:47

Nice to meet you.

0:39:470:39:49

Shall we go and have a look?

0:39:490:39:54

This is one of the estates in Milton

Keynes earmarked for regeneration.

0:39:540:40:00

It's a long-standing community

which, a lot around the town,

0:40:000:40:03

values these communal green areas.

0:40:030:40:04

I love it.

0:40:040:40:05

I've been here long enough

and I walked around

0:40:050:40:07

who mostly daily.

0:40:070:40:08

And it is just great.

0:40:080:40:09

You're walking in the

countryside, you're

0:40:090:40:11

in a housing estate but you're

walking in the countryside.

0:40:110:40:13

Why would you want

to get rid of this?

0:40:130:40:15

It's a real attribute.

0:40:150:40:16

It's quite beautiful.

0:40:160:40:18

There are concerns that lots more

houses will be built here

0:40:180:40:21

as one of the ways of paying

for the regeneration could be

0:40:210:40:24

from the sale of new private

property on the

0:40:240:40:26

estate.

0:40:260:40:27

We've got to regenerate the estate

by putting new properties to

0:40:270:40:31

pay for the refurbishment

of the old.

0:40:310:40:33

So we've got to have 1000 plus

0:40:330:40:34

houses to refurbish 278.

0:40:340:40:39

But it's also worries

about people having to

0:40:390:40:43

downsize if they are moved,

and residents like Tony

0:40:430:40:45

Smith are very unhappy

about their uncertain future.

0:40:450:40:47

Moving out?

0:40:470:40:48

They will have to carry me out.

0:40:480:40:50

I just don't want to move.

0:40:500:40:51

I won't move.

0:40:510:40:53

Of course, if I have

to, I have to do.

0:40:530:40:57

But I will be one of the last to go.

0:40:570:41:02

So what do you think

of what you have heard about

0:41:020:41:04

the regeneration plans?

0:41:040:41:05

What do I think about it?

0:41:050:41:07

It stinks, for a start.

0:41:070:41:09

So many rumours.

0:41:090:41:10

Here on a Fullers Slade

estate, one of seven

0:41:100:41:12

estates in Milton Keynes that is set

to be degenerated over the next 15

0:41:120:41:12

Here on a Fullers Slade

estate, one of seven

0:41:180:41:21

estates in Milton Keynes that is set

to be regenerated over the next 15

0:41:210:41:24

years, there are 453 properties,

of which 278 on council owned.

0:41:240:41:27

And it is those 278

that are set to be

0:41:270:41:29

at the centre of this

regeneration project.

0:41:290:41:31

Helen has lived here for the last 18

years and won awards for

0:41:310:41:34

her work on the estate.

0:41:340:41:35

I will miss the community.

0:41:350:41:36

We built this community

and if they decide to

0:41:360:41:38

bring in more houses and things

like this they will destroy this

0:41:380:41:41

community.

0:41:410:41:43

Because they will put too

many people in here.

0:41:430:41:45

Yeah, it is upsetting,

it really is upsetting

0:41:450:41:47

me.

0:41:470:41:48

I have gone to meetings and actually

broken down into tears at

0:41:480:41:51

these meetings because we don't know

ourselves, as residents, what's

0:41:510:41:53

going on.

0:41:530:41:59

The company that might

have the answers is Your MK.

0:41:590:42:01

Who are responsible

for regenerating the

0:42:010:42:02

estate.

0:42:030:42:04

It has to be

a community-led process.

0:42:040:42:05

We cannot be seen to be doing things

to people, they have to

0:42:050:42:08

determine what the future

looks like for them,

0:42:080:42:10

it is their community.

0:42:100:42:11

We have spoken to residents

who are worried about green spaces

0:42:110:42:14

disappearing.

0:42:140:42:15

I think you are absolutely correct.

0:42:150:42:16

There is a significant

proportion of this

0:42:160:42:18

estate that is currently

green, open spaces.

0:42:180:42:20

Those are lots of probably

underutilised open space on the

0:42:200:42:22

estate and that has got to be

factored into what we are

0:42:220:42:26

determining, going forward.

0:42:260:42:29

So it sounds like we

are not ruling out

0:42:290:42:31

building houses on some

of that green space?

0:42:310:42:33

No, and I think it would be

foolish to say we are not.

0:42:330:42:37

Your MK also disputes

the future of 1000 new homes,

0:42:370:42:40

saying the numbers being built

haven't been

0:42:400:42:42

decided yet.

0:42:420:42:43

When all the questions are answered

and the final plans put

0:42:430:42:46

together, Milton Keynes Council will

hold a referendum on the scheme.

0:42:460:42:49

And there is a promise

that those plans

0:42:490:42:51

can be rejected.

0:42:510:42:54

If we can't build that trust

and we go to a referendum

0:42:540:42:57

and is no vote then

Milton Keynes Council has failed.

0:42:570:43:00

Your MK has failed and I

don't want to get into

0:43:000:43:02

that situation.

0:43:020:43:04

And I think we are the first

council to offer a binding

0:43:040:43:10

yes - no referendum for regeneration

and I think that puts the onus on

0:43:100:43:14

Milton Keynes Council

and Your MK to get it right.

0:43:140:43:16

I don't want to fail

but I think the backstop is the

0:43:160:43:19

referendum, to make

sure we won't fail.

0:43:190:43:21

As I say, it's a win-win situation.

0:43:210:43:22

By next summer, when

the plans for Fullers

0:43:220:43:24

Slade should be ready,

they

0:43:240:43:29

will find out if the residents

actually think they are winners

0:43:290:43:32

or not.

0:43:320:43:33

It's a palace, it's my palace.

0:43:330:43:34

It's my home, you know what I mean?

0:43:340:43:36

It's not just bricks

and mortar, that is my home.

0:43:360:43:38

Why would I want to move?

0:43:380:43:40

I'd be a stranger anywhere else.

0:43:400:43:43

Mark Lancaster, somebody said

in there, "it stinks."

0:43:430:43:45

It's not been handled

very well, is it?

0:43:450:43:55

I think there have been

issue by Milton Keynes

0:43:550:43:57

Council about not

communicating the plans very

0:43:570:43:59

well with constituents

in

0:43:590:44:00

Milton Keynes.

0:44:000:44:01

I think we have to accept that

many of the homes in

0:44:010:44:04

Milton Keynes were built 50 years

ago as temporary housing for the

0:44:040:44:07

workers who built the city

and there is a need to regenerate.

0:44:070:44:10

But we do have to be very

sensitive about this

0:44:100:44:12

and I am very conscious that it is

the right decision to have a

0:44:120:44:15

referendum at the end of it.

0:44:150:44:17

Also, what people

don't realise is the

0:44:170:44:18

unique way that green space

is looked after in Milton Keynes

0:44:180:44:23

through the Parks Trust.

0:44:230:44:24

This land is not owned

by Milton Keynes

0:44:240:44:26

Council, Milton Keynes is one

of the greenest cities in the UK

0:44:260:44:29

and we do have a practice

where if green space

0:44:290:44:32

is used and effectively is swapped

out to maintain that balance of

0:44:320:44:34

green space with the Milton Keynes.

0:44:340:44:36

Just to get that clear,

so unless we trust

0:44:360:44:41

--the trust says you can build

on the

0:44:410:44:43

green space, it cannot be built on?

0:44:430:44:44

Well, the trust effectively

owns the green space.

0:44:440:44:46

Not all the green space

in Milton Keynes, but most of it.

0:44:460:44:49

And there has been deals in the past

where it has released lands

0:44:490:44:52

to be built on, but then new green

spaces is taken to compensate.

0:44:520:44:55

So we get that balance

in Milton Keynes to

0:44:550:45:05

continue to enjoy that

wonderful balance

0:45:060:45:07

we have of being one

of the

0:45:070:45:09

greenest cities in the UK.

0:45:090:45:10

I suppose it depends

on where that

0:45:100:45:12

green space is.

0:45:120:45:13

If it is outside your door

step and then it is not

0:45:130:45:16

outside your doorstep then

it is not there for you.

0:45:160:45:19

Indeed, but the important

thing about the binding

0:45:190:45:21

referendum, it is

important it is done

0:45:210:45:22

with the residents, not

to the

0:45:220:45:24

residents.

0:45:240:45:25

It sounds as if that is

what the council is trying to do.

0:45:250:45:28

Sorry, which way are the council

trying to do it, as far as you're

0:45:280:45:31

concerned?

0:45:310:45:32

With the residents.

0:45:320:45:33

Because the binding referendum

is, as the councillor

0:45:330:45:35

said in the clip, it is about trying

to work with them and if they fail

0:45:350:45:39

to get the referendum then

the council and Your MK have failed.

0:45:390:45:42

So I hope they succeed

in terms of making sure

0:45:420:45:44

they work with the residents to

have a satisfactory outcome for the

0:45:440:45:47

residents and for the council.

0:45:470:45:48

The repairs and

renovations have to be

0:45:480:45:50

paid for somehow, don't they?

0:45:500:45:52

How would that be in Bedford?

0:45:520:45:55

Our stock, we transferred

it to a housing

0:45:550:46:00

association back in the '90s,

so we do not have

0:46:000:46:03

that issue.

0:46:030:46:06

BPHAR, our housing

provider, does that

0:46:060:46:08

through borrowing and through some

regeneration as well

0:46:080:46:09

selling some properties.

0:46:090:46:11

So a mixture of things.

0:46:110:46:14

And in Milton Keynes

has got to be paid

0:46:140:46:16

for somehow.

0:46:160:46:17

Absolutely, and there is no doubt

work needs to be done on these

0:46:170:46:20

properties.

0:46:200:46:21

The crucial thing

is to be sensitive.

0:46:210:46:23

I have offered my assistance

in hoping to mediate

0:46:230:46:27

through this process but this

binding referendum, I think, is

0:46:270:46:29

crucial.

0:46:300:46:31

We both agreed we need more houses,

but it is difficult getting

0:46:310:46:33

people to agree to have them

outside their house.

0:46:330:46:38

And it's difficult to get

the agreement in the wider

0:46:380:46:40

community in terms of

when you have got big

0:46:400:46:43

congestion issues that

are

0:46:430:46:44

very localised, that

can create a problem.

0:46:440:46:45

That is the big one,

as far as you're concerned?

0:46:450:46:49

Building new houses is one

thing, but actually

0:46:490:46:51

having infrastructure

there is more important.

0:46:510:46:52

And infrastructure upfront.

0:46:520:46:58

So we have had promised

infrastructure and then the houses

0:46:580:47:00

built on the back of it, and

sometimes the infrastructure hasn't

0:47:000:47:03

arrived.

0:47:030:47:04

I think people feel let down

by that, I know people feel let

0:47:040:47:07

down by that.

0:47:070:47:08

For years, the principal in

Milton Keynes has been, I before E.

0:47:080:47:11

Infrastructure before expansion.

0:47:110:47:12

We are not NIMBYs

in Milton Keynes but

0:47:120:47:14

you must get that I,

the infrastructure.

0:47:140:47:16

Milton Keynes was built

for the car and for traffic

0:47:160:47:18

and infrastructure,

whereas I suspect Bedford wasn't.

0:47:180:47:20

Indeed.

0:47:200:47:21

It wasn't planned,

it has been around

0:47:210:47:23

for about 850 years.

0:47:230:47:25

Let's move on.

0:47:250:47:28

Wednesday is a budget day,

the Chancellor has a lot on his mind

0:47:280:47:31

with Brexit just 16 months away.

0:47:310:47:33

So what do people

here want from

0:47:330:47:34

Philip Hammond?

0:47:350:47:36

High on the wish list,

money for infrastructure.

0:47:360:47:38

Andrew Sinclair has

been taking a trip from

0:47:380:47:39

east to west to see where that

money could be spent.

0:47:390:47:49

At every budget time,

we always talk a lot about

0:47:510:47:53

infrastructure and

particularly transport

0:47:530:47:54

infrastructure.

0:47:540:47:55

Why?

0:47:550:47:56

Because that's what keeps us,

and more importantly,

0:47:560:47:58

the economy moving.

0:47:580:48:00

And as a largely rural region,

we often struggle to

0:48:000:48:03

get from A to B.

0:48:030:48:08

In next week's budget,

the big infrastructure focus

0:48:080:48:10

is likely to be here,

the River Yare in Great Yarmouth.

0:48:100:48:16

Ipswich has been promised a river

crossing, so too has

0:48:160:48:19

Lowestoft.

0:48:190:48:20

Now it seems that Great Yarmouth

is going to get one as

0:48:200:48:23

well.

0:48:230:48:24

I'm hoping it will it will be high

enough so the regular shipping

0:48:240:48:27

can go underneath it.

0:48:270:48:30

There's been a campaign

for a third river crossing

0:48:300:48:32

for Yarmouth for the ten years.

0:48:320:48:34

Plans have been drawn up,

the initial funding found.

0:48:340:48:36

Now it's up to the Government.

0:48:360:48:38

In Great Yarmouth we are right

here on the edge of

0:48:380:48:42

England and without that major

infrastructure investment we will

0:48:420:48:45

stay just as we are without

the possibility of expanding.

0:48:450:48:52

We can expand and offer

so much more to

0:48:520:48:56

Great Britain PLC if we

have the infrastructure.

0:48:560:48:58

And one bridge make

such a difference?

0:48:580:49:00

Absolutely.

0:49:000:49:01

I have been told the bridge could be

on the Chancellor's list.

0:49:010:49:04

Back on dry land, it's time

to start heading west.

0:49:040:49:06

As the train to Norwich pulls

out of Great Yarmouth

0:49:060:49:08

there is a good view

of the A47, one of the

0:49:080:49:11

region's main arteries,

in

0:49:110:49:12

desperate need of improvement.

0:49:120:49:13

Some upgrade work

will start next year,

0:49:130:49:15

but more is needed.

0:49:150:49:18

Among my fellow passengers,

the main concern is

0:49:180:49:20

about another form

of infrastructure.

0:49:200:49:23

Trying to get on the property

ladder myself and finding

0:49:230:49:25

it quite tough, I'm in my

early 30s, and to do

0:49:250:49:32

on my own

0:49:320:49:33

is quite a struggle.

0:49:330:49:40

having to go to a better job

and the 70 hours a week,

0:49:400:49:43

maybe, to start saving.

0:49:430:49:44

But that is only going

to be renting, still.

0:49:440:49:46

Not to be able to get

money away for a

0:49:460:49:48

mortgage.

0:49:480:49:49

It's a big issue for our region.

0:49:490:49:52

So as we pull into Norwich it's time

to transfer to the car

0:49:520:49:55

for a while.

0:49:550:49:57

As you travel west through

places like Wyndham,

0:49:570:49:59

Attleborough and Thetford,

you are struck by how

0:49:590:50:02

much house building

is

0:50:020:50:03

going on at the moment.

0:50:030:50:04

But despite that, there

is still a desperately

0:50:040:50:13

-need for housing across the region.

0:50:130:50:14

The Chancellor is expected to

announce incentives in his budget to

0:50:140:50:17

encourage developers to build

more and buyers to buy.

0:50:170:50:19

There may also be measures

to help tenants, and that

0:50:190:50:21

is important in a region like ours,

where rent is now rising

0:50:210:50:25

faster than anywhere

else in the country.

0:50:250:50:28

Next stop, Barton Mills in Suffolk,

where we come across

0:50:280:50:31

Andy Arnold filling up.

0:50:310:50:34

The local haulier spends

£1000 a week on fuel

0:50:340:50:37

for his four trucks.

0:50:370:50:40

In our region the level

of fuel duty has always

0:50:400:50:43

been a contentious issue.

0:50:430:50:44

The Government always

think about how

0:50:440:50:46

much tax they can get

out of people, I don't

0:50:460:50:48

think they realise how

that

0:50:480:50:51

hurts people in the transport

industry with the fuel duty.

0:50:510:50:55

The industry is hoping

for another freeze.

0:50:550:50:58

At least if it's

frozen we can carry on

0:50:580:51:01

operating the way we are.

0:51:010:51:09

If it was to go up, it

eats into our profit

0:51:090:51:11

margin and you have got to do cut

back somewhere, whether it is

0:51:110:51:14

drivers' wages or whatever.

0:51:140:51:16

At nearby Brandon, it's time

to get back on the train.

0:51:160:51:19

Through the Ely junction,

still waiting for its

0:51:190:51:21

upgrade, and then the Cambridge

science Park, the place in recent

0:51:210:51:25

years that has done very

well at budget time.

0:51:250:51:30

Cambridge is becoming so busy

and important there is now

0:51:300:51:34

talk of a third

station for the city.

0:51:340:51:36

If the Chancellor can afford it.

0:51:360:51:37

It would have been

nice to continue this

0:51:370:51:39

journey further west,

to

0:51:390:51:40

Bedford and Milton Keynes.

0:51:400:51:44

But the line which used

to run from here to

0:51:440:51:47

Oxford, the so-called Varsity Line,

was closed 50 years ago.

0:51:470:51:51

There is a project

underway to reopen it,

0:51:510:51:53

but it needs more money.

0:51:530:51:55

We understand that

on Wednesday's budget that will

0:51:550:51:57

be extra funding to help make East -

West rail more of a reality.

0:51:570:52:02

But for now, my journey

across the region has

0:52:020:52:06

to come to premature end.

0:52:060:52:09

Dave Hodgson, how important

would that Varsity line be?

0:52:090:52:14

The intermediary stops,

Bedford to Milton Keynes,

0:52:140:52:19

Milton Keynes to the west,

and Bedford to Cambridge, they

0:52:190:52:22

are very important to try

and get some traffic

0:52:220:52:24

off the road, help

the

0:52:240:52:25

growth of the towns.

0:52:250:52:26

We have had this problem before.

0:52:260:52:27

We were promised it

would be completed by

0:52:270:52:29

2017 by George Osborne.

0:52:290:52:33

The proposal is for 2023

and that is the western

0:52:330:52:35

section at the Bedford-

Cambridge section 2030.

0:52:350:52:45

I think it is critical

in terms of for the

0:52:460:52:49

existing growth.

0:52:490:52:50

If we are to have more

of it is then even more

0:52:500:52:53

important.

0:52:530:52:54

There was talk it was just

going to go from Oxford or

0:52:540:52:56

Cambridge but now stopping at places

like Milton Keynes and Bedford,

0:52:560:52:59

very important for the economy.

0:52:590:53:00

It's so exciting.

0:53:000:53:02

We had the Lord Adonis report this

week, he thinks if we get this

0:53:020:53:07

link right it could mean an extra

£160 million a year to our economy.

0:53:070:53:13

Potentially making this link

between Oxford and Cambridge,

0:53:130:53:15

the Silicon Valley of the UK.

0:53:150:53:17

We have seen money announced

last year, 100 million.

0:53:170:53:19

The start of the western end.

0:53:190:53:20

I am confident we will

see more this time.

0:53:200:53:22

There really is...

0:53:220:53:24

He's just looking at

you because, as he said,

0:53:240:53:27

George Osborne said 2017.

0:53:270:53:28

100 million was for

the business case,

0:53:280:53:30

not for the actual building.

0:53:300:53:31

We did get hard money

allocated to this and

0:53:310:53:34

the superhighway last year.

0:53:340:53:36

We do need more but the key

thing is collectively

0:53:360:53:39

across the region

the

0:53:390:53:40

local authorities and

politicians work together.

0:53:400:53:42

We have been lobbying very hard

and we saw the first

0:53:420:53:45

impact of that last year and I think

the public Dave and I need to

0:53:450:53:49

continue to work together

to tell the Chancellor

0:53:490:53:50

that this is what we want

and

0:53:500:53:52

what we need.

0:53:520:53:53

And then in return this will benefit

the whole of the UK economy.

0:53:530:53:56

I know you are very

worried about the

0:53:560:54:00

effect of road congestion

in various parts.

0:54:000:54:07

This would help?

0:54:070:54:08

It would help in terms

of moving between

0:54:080:54:10

major towns but it is

getting to that link.

0:54:100:54:12

So Highways England have talked

a lot about and that may be

0:54:120:54:16

some money in the budget for Oxford

for the first mile, last mile.

0:54:160:54:20

So people spending some 50%

of their journey time

0:54:200:54:24

in the first and last bit.

0:54:240:54:26

So some of those junctions

we all know about, the blackout

0:54:260:54:28

roundabout, junction

13, people spent most

0:54:280:54:30

of their journey time

in

0:54:300:54:31

that, not in the connectivity.

0:54:310:54:32

So we need to look

at those issues as

0:54:320:54:34

well.

0:54:340:54:38

Does it help being an elected

mayor, because the

0:54:380:54:40

Government loves elected mayors.

0:54:400:54:41

Even though you are

a Liberal Democrat.

0:54:410:54:43

Does it help?

0:54:430:54:44

The flavour of the day

is the metro mayors in

0:54:440:54:47

terms of bigger areas and strategic

areas so we may be getting a little

0:54:470:54:51

bit of a look in, but I

think the ask for us

0:54:510:54:54

now is a lot of houses

0:54:540:54:55

and currently we are not

0:54:550:54:58

coping in a borough

has not been designed

0:54:580:55:00

for the car in terms of the existing

pressure on our road structures.

0:55:000:55:03

Do you get the feeling

the Government

0:55:030:55:07

is now aware or is concerned more

money needs to come out of London

0:55:070:55:11

and into areas like Bedford

and Milton Keynes?

0:55:110:55:13

Absolutely, and we have seen

that in recent budgets.

0:55:130:55:15

I have been the MP

for 12 years and in

0:55:150:55:18

the early years the local

Milton Keynes economy was generating

0:55:180:55:20

a net surplus for the Government

which was

0:55:200:55:22

then taken out of the city

and spread to northern cities and

0:55:220:55:25

elsewhere.

0:55:250:55:33

If we can just keep some

of the money we are generating our

0:55:330:55:36

region to invest in our region

we will generate even more.

0:55:360:55:39

Can I just touch on the

other point that was

0:55:390:55:41

raised in the film about housing?

0:55:410:55:42

That is key, that will put greater

pressure on our infrastructure.

0:55:420:55:45

But I think we need to be more

innovative about how we can get

0:55:450:55:48

young people onto

the housing ladder.

0:55:480:55:50

One of the ways is perhaps

through pensions.

0:55:500:55:52

We all make contributions

now to workplace

0:55:520:55:54

pensions, if you could use that

money to invest in equity in your

0:55:540:55:57

own home and slowly build up

the equity in your own home and then

0:55:570:56:00

ultimately release it

again when you retire,

0:56:000:56:02

that is an innovative way

that we could potentially help

0:56:020:56:04

people.

0:56:040:56:05

Is that something the Government

is thinking about?

0:56:050:56:07

It's certainly

something we are Milton

0:56:070:56:10

Keynes are encouraging the

Government to think about and it is

0:56:100:56:13

high up on my agenda.

0:56:130:56:14

Is the Government listening?

0:56:140:56:15

The Government always listens!

0:56:150:56:16

But we also need to look

at the mix of houses, so not

0:56:160:56:19

just houses to buy, it is affordable

housing, houses to rent.

0:56:190:56:23

And looking at the skills.

0:56:230:56:26

We have got 10,000 with planning

permission already in

0:56:260:56:29

Bedford Borough and

the ability to build

0:56:290:56:30

out is very difficult

because

0:56:300:56:32

there isn't the skills

and raw materials to build.

0:56:320:56:34

The housing companies

at the moment do not want

0:56:340:56:37

to build because actually

affects their bottom line.

0:56:370:56:40

We come back to what you say,

in a way you do not

0:56:400:56:46

want those house is because you

don't have the infrastructure.

0:56:460:56:48

It's a more complicated

picture than just

0:56:480:56:50

building houses.

0:56:500:56:51

We do need them because we have

lots of people that

0:56:510:56:54

are homeless and people living

with parents way beyond the age

0:56:540:56:57

they used to and we need to have

houses for

0:56:570:56:59

those people to move out

and start their life on their own.

0:56:590:57:02

But we need to look

at the first - last mile so

0:57:020:57:05

they can get the infrastructure.

0:57:050:57:06

This is the point, the driver

for our growth should be economic

0:57:060:57:09

growth, not simply building houses.

0:57:090:57:10

And we need to get our

fair share of money,

0:57:100:57:12

which we do not get

at the

0:57:120:57:14

moment.

0:57:140:57:15

You're not going to let him

have the last word.

0:57:150:57:17

Head teachers, including those

from Essex, marched on Downing

0:57:230:57:28

Street this week to lobby for

a fairer funding for their schools.

0:57:280:57:36

Problems with policing in

Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire were

0:57:360:57:38

raised in front of the home affairs

select committee, where the county's

0:57:380:57:41

police and crime commissioners

called for more money.

0:57:410:57:43

We are only talking

around about £1 a week.

0:57:430:57:47

I think even those

who are just about

0:57:470:57:49

managing can probably

find a pound a week.

0:57:490:57:52

The MP for Bury St Edmunds caused

consternation in the Commons

0:57:520:57:55

over this weekend's

Saint Edmunds Day celebrations.

0:57:550:58:02

This weekend celebrates

Saint Edmunds Day,

0:58:020:58:04

commemorating Edmund

the martry, Some of whom

0:58:040:58:06

think he should be the first patron

saint of the UK and not St George.

0:58:060:58:13

While Priti Patel,

who recently resigned

0:58:130:58:17

as Secretary of State

for International Aid, following a

0:58:170:58:20

little trouble over

unauthorised meetings

0:58:200:58:21

in Israel, made light

of

0:58:210:58:22

her plight.

0:58:220:58:27

I am speaking today in this debate

following an intensive

0:58:270:58:31

course over the past week,

it's fair to say, on how

0:58:310:58:36

on how to stage an exit.

0:58:360:58:41

Which was the focus of a degree

of international attention.

0:58:410:58:43

Let's just talk about

that hole in the police

0:58:430:58:45

budgets.

0:58:450:58:46

Because you are one of the areas

where there has been lots of

0:58:460:58:49

consternation about it.

0:58:490:58:51

It's not going away, is it?

0:58:510:58:53

No, but the whole public

sector is, so I think it's

0:58:530:58:58

right the commissioner

asked for more money.

0:58:580:59:00

It's ironic that in her campaign

she actually criticised the

0:59:000:59:02

previous commissioner

for asking for more money

0:59:020:59:07

but she is right now to ask.

0:59:070:59:08

But it has cost the public sector,

trying to deliver social

0:59:080:59:11

services, it's remarkably difficult

when we have the massive cuts that

0:59:110:59:14

we're having.

0:59:140:59:15

Police budgets, there is not

a police force that has

0:59:150:59:17

enough money.

0:59:170:59:21

Let's remind ourselves

that police budgets

0:59:210:59:24

are effectively fixed

until 2019-20 in real terms.

0:59:240:59:26

That is good news.

0:59:260:59:27

In Milton Keynes we have just

got 15 extra officers.

0:59:270:59:36

I was speaking to our

police commander this

0:59:360:59:38

week and there is a major

refurbishment of the police station

0:59:380:59:40

going on.

0:59:400:59:41

Of course there is pressure

on public sector,

0:59:410:59:43

particularly pay, which is why

we have the eight independent

0:59:430:59:46

commissions looking at that

and the Chancellor has already

0:59:460:59:48

indicated we will be moving away

from the 1%.

0:59:480:59:51

You have a police forces

across the region either

0:59:510:59:53

cutting or doing away

with their extra police.

0:59:530:59:55

Forgive me, I speak

from Milton Keynes, where we

0:59:550:59:57

have just got 15 extra front

when police officers.

0:59:570:59:59

There are innovative

things you can do...

0:59:591:00:08

Cloud are going across the region.

-- PSCOs.

1:00:081:00:16

Not in Milton Keynes. There is

innovative things so we have police

1:00:161:00:20

officers based in the town hall and

so we are shipping facilities with

1:00:201:00:24

them. There is so much more for them

to have to do these days.

1:00:241:00:30

I am not dismissing the challenge

but there is innovations we can

1:00:301:00:33

carry out and as we both said, there

is more police officers in both of

1:00:331:00:39

our humanities.

But you will talk to people in the

1:00:391:00:43

street and they will say they want

to see a policeman on the beat.

1:00:431:00:48

There are challenges and this is one

of the things the Chancellor will be

1:00:481:00:54

looking at in the budget.

More money for police, do you think?

1:00:541:00:58

Well, I hope we will work across a

range of things. Are you looking

1:00:581:01:04

forward to the budget? I always look

forward to the budget.

Of course.

1:01:041:01:09

Let's see what comes. I would rather

be doing this programme this week

1:01:091:01:13

than next week.

Does that tell us something? Thank

1:01:131:01:19

you to both of you. That is all from

us. You can watch this programme on

1:01:191:01:25

the BBC iPlayer on our website. We

will be back at the

1:01:251:01:29

Philip Hammond will deliver his

Budget on Wednesday -

1:01:371:01:40

he's moved it to the Autumn

if you remember - and he'll be

1:01:401:01:43

hoping it can help re-define

the Government in the eyes

1:01:431:01:45

of the public.

1:01:451:01:46

But when it comes to

the economy, do people trust

1:01:461:01:50

the Conservatives, or Labour?

1:01:501:01:51

Here's Ellie Price

with the moodbox.

1:01:511:01:56

MUSIC: The Road to Nowhere

by Talking Heads.

1:01:561:02:04

All eyes will be on the Chancellor

this week as we find out

1:02:041:02:07

what he has been cooking

up in his Budget.

1:02:071:02:09

So we have pulled off the A1

near Peterborough to ask people here

1:02:091:02:12

who they trust with the economy -

is it the Chancellor,

1:02:121:02:15

Philip Hammond, or is it

Labour's John McDonnell?

1:02:151:02:22

No 7.

1:02:221:02:25

Which one's Tory?

1:02:251:02:30

I voted Conservative

for the last two

1:02:371:02:38

elections, don't feel very confident

now, so I'm going to swap.

1:02:381:02:43

If I said to you which

of these characters

1:02:431:02:45

would you trust with the economy,

what would you say?

1:02:451:02:47

The one who's currently

running it, because they

1:02:471:02:49

seem to be bringing

the deficit down.

1:02:491:02:51

Labour.

1:02:511:02:52

Why?

1:02:521:02:53

Because I'm an NHS worker.

1:02:531:02:56

For me, it's just about

spending, public spending.

1:02:561:02:59

Labour always overspend.

1:02:591:03:04

John McDonnell, I think

capitalism as we know it is tanked

1:03:041:03:10

and I think we need

a radical re-think.

1:03:101:03:15

Broken his egg, who do you trust

more on the economy?

1:03:151:03:17

No one.

1:03:171:03:18

Why?

1:03:181:03:21

Because they never come up trumps

with anything that they

1:03:211:03:26

reckon they're going to do.

1:03:261:03:27

If I had to make you

choose one of them?

1:03:271:03:30

The man that's there, Hammond.

1:03:301:03:32

I wouldn't trust

Philip Hammond with a

1:03:321:03:33

bag of marbles or a plastic ball!

1:03:331:03:39

Hello, Bob.

1:03:391:03:40

Oh, hello.

1:03:401:03:41

Who do you trust

more on the economy?

1:03:411:03:43

Oh, the Conservatives.

1:03:431:03:44

Do you?

Why's that?

1:03:441:03:46

I just think they're better

for the small businessman.

1:03:461:03:48

We need a Maggie or

a Winston Churchill,

1:03:481:03:50

somebody in there with

balls to say, right,

1:03:501:03:53

that's the direction

we are

1:03:531:03:55

going in, that's what

we are going to do.

1:03:551:03:57

I've got balls!

1:03:571:03:59

What are you doing?

1:03:591:04:01

Putting balls in holes

by the look of it!

1:04:011:04:08

I suppose the lesser of the two

evils is anything but Tory,

1:04:081:04:10

but I say that without a great

deal of conviction.

1:04:101:04:13

Having grown up in the '70s

with all the rubbish on the

1:04:131:04:16

streets, the strikes, the unions.

1:04:161:04:17

Re-nationalisation and they're

going to spend a lot of money

1:04:171:04:21

and increase taxes and it will pull

the country down.

1:04:211:04:27

I've seen an awful loft of all-day

breakfasts today, but it

1:04:271:04:30

is clearing up time here

at the diner and time

1:04:301:04:33

to reveal the Moodbox.

1:04:331:04:35

Take it away, Tim.

1:04:351:04:37

As you can say it was

a close-run thing, but

1:04:371:04:40

like any fiscally responsible

Chancellor, I've done my maths and

1:04:401:04:42

counted and Philip Hammond got six

more votes than John McDonnell.

1:04:421:04:49

Oh, chip, thank you very much!

1:04:491:04:53

That was Ellie and the entirely

unscientific Moodbox,

1:04:531:04:55

at the Stibbington diner near

Peterborough.

1:04:551:04:57

But for a slightly more scientific

understanding of how the public view

1:04:571:05:00

the parties on this and other

issues, let's have a look

1:05:001:05:03

at some recent polling.

1:05:031:05:05

Here's where the Conservatives

and Labour stood on the economy back

1:05:051:05:07

when the Prime Minister called

the snap election in April,

1:05:071:05:10

when the Conservatives had a big

lead, as they did in many

1:05:101:05:13

other areas.

1:05:131:05:15

The most recent poll by the same

company reckoned Labour had narrowed

1:05:151:05:19

the gap significantly,

as they have in other areas,

1:05:191:05:21

although they're still 10 points

behind the Tories on this issue.

1:05:211:05:26

And there was another survey much

discussed at Westminster this week,

1:05:261:05:29

showing that while the gap

between Theresa May

1:05:291:05:35

and Jeremy Corbyn has narrowed

drastically since that pre-election

1:05:351:05:37

period, Mrs May is,

despite her many problems,

1:05:371:05:39

still pretty much level-pegging

in polling terms or

1:05:391:05:41

even slightly ahead.

1:05:411:05:42

And when it comes to how

people intend to vote

1:05:421:05:44

while the Tories are behind,

there's no sign of a

1:05:441:05:47

big Labour lead yet.

1:05:471:05:49

Tony Blair thinks that,

given the current "mess"

1:05:491:05:51

inside the Government,

Jeremy Corbyn's party should be

1:05:511:05:55

10 or 15 points ahead.

1:05:551:05:58

Well, many in Labour will find it

easy to dismiss both Tony Blair

1:05:581:06:01

and the opinion polls, as they both

called the last election entirely

1:06:011:06:04

wrong, so what if anything do

these polls tell us?

1:06:041:06:11

Let's turn to our expert panel.

Labour are now eight points on the

1:06:111:06:19

economy, according to a poll. Why is

there a gap between Labour and the

1:06:191:06:23

Tories?

There seems to be a

deep-seated reservation in the minds

1:06:231:06:30

of many voters. They look at Jeremy

Corbyn and John McDonnell and

1:06:301:06:33

imagine them in charge of the

country, the finances, national

1:06:331:06:39

security, and think... It is

unfashionable to point out in many

1:06:391:06:42

circles that Labour did not win the

last election, and it didn't win it

1:06:421:06:46

for that kind of reason. Jeremy

Corbyn is very good at attracting

1:06:461:06:53

and inspiring young people and

people who had not voted before. We

1:06:531:06:58

underestimated his capacity to do

that. But he wasn't great at turning

1:06:581:07:04

Tories to Labour, or sealing off

those final reservations. The

1:07:041:07:09

government have had a shambolic few

weeks. We are tripping over

1:07:091:07:13

resigning a cabinet ministers. They

are fighting like ferrets. A lot of

1:07:131:07:18

people are having a really tough

time and looking at the government

1:07:181:07:21

to help them, and are unimpressed

with what they see. But there seems

1:07:211:07:25

to be a final fence that Corbyn does

not seem to be able to get over.

1:07:251:07:33

Isn't Tony Blair right, that Labour

should be 15 or 20 points ahead?

I

1:07:331:07:38

think he's completely wrong, and is

revealing he is out of date. I think

1:07:381:07:42

Labour are in a really good

position. If you look at what they

1:07:421:07:45

have achieved in the last year,

going into Christmas 2016, Corbyn

1:07:451:07:51

had just managed to avoid, had to

re-fight Labour leadership contest.

1:07:511:07:58

They were 20 points behind. Theresa

May was at the top of her game.

1:07:581:08:05

Through the general election and

beyond it, they have continued to

1:08:051:08:09

build their movement. They are very

effective on social media. I think

1:08:091:08:14

they are in a strong position, and

they need about 60 seats to win the

1:08:141:08:19

next general election. They will

probably start with 25 of those. The

1:08:191:08:25

fact that they are closing the gap

on the economy suggests that a lot

1:08:251:08:28

of voters are now giving them a

chance or a hearing, which they

1:08:281:08:33

certainly were not getting a year

ago. I think they have done very

1:08:331:08:37

well.

Can they be confident with a

slim lead against the government?

I

1:08:371:08:42

am slightly more with Tony Blair

than with Iain. This goes back to

1:08:421:08:47

that very general election result. A

huge turnout for Labour for Jeremy

1:08:471:08:55

Corbyn. If you asked that same 40%

of people today, do you want Jeremy

1:08:551:09:02

Corbyn to be Prime Minister? Where

you really voting for Jeremy Corbyn

1:09:021:09:06

to lead the British governmentanswer

is no, because Theresa May still,

1:09:061:09:12

despite the fact she is presiding

over a shambolic cabinet, she has

1:09:121:09:16

the most support for Prime Minister.

The last general election may have

1:09:161:09:23

just been a giant by-election,

because everyone was so short that

1:09:231:09:29

Theresa May would get in.

The

Chancellor Philip Hammond gave

1:09:291:09:33

Labour a bit of a gift, when he

said, there were not any unemployed

1:09:331:09:40

people in Britain. A slip of the

tongue. Was that damaging?

You have

1:09:401:09:46

to look at the context he was saying

it in, which will not be the context

1:09:461:09:50

of the Facebook meme you will get

shortly. He was asked about future

1:09:501:09:58

unemployment, and he was saying that

when technological advances came,

1:09:581:10:09

unemployment didn't materialise.

They would not be able to use that

1:10:091:10:14

against him so easily if it didn't

have something that people think

1:10:141:10:18

about the Conservative government,

which is that they are out of touch,

1:10:181:10:22

they have no idea about some people,

that they refuse to see what they

1:10:221:10:26

have done. People have that idea

about the Conservatives, so to drop

1:10:261:10:31

a bit of a clanger in that regard...

The budget is on Wednesday, and also

1:10:311:10:38

this week, the Brexit committee will

be meeting. What will they be

1:10:381:10:41

talking about and why does it

matter?

What Stephen Hammond said to

1:10:411:10:46

you a few moments ago was

fascinating. Tomorrow is going to be

1:10:461:10:50

the big meeting. It is the

negotiations committee. Nine or so

1:10:501:10:56

ministers have recently been

included in that, like Michael Gove.

1:10:561:10:59

They are going to be talking about

the money, precisely how much they

1:10:591:11:04

offer in two weeks' time to meet

this deadline in the December

1:11:041:11:09

council for phase two. Michael Gove

and Boris Johnson want to add in

1:11:091:11:12

conditions. They want to say, we

will give you this as long as we get

1:11:121:11:18

that. What was fascinating with

Stephen Hammond just now was that he

1:11:181:11:23

revealed that it wasn't just the

Brexiteers in Cabinet who want a

1:11:231:11:25

more precise definition of what we

are going for, it is the remainers

1:11:251:11:35

as well.

In the heart of the

government, David Davis is trying to

1:11:351:11:41

keep the bill as low as possible,

possibly around 30%. The divorce

1:11:411:11:48

Bill and future liabilities. Some in

the civil service have suggested

1:11:481:11:55

that it has to be 40 or above. What

it reveals to me is really, it's

1:11:551:12:01

another function of Britain not

really having a proper Prime

1:12:011:12:05

Minister. In normal circumstances,

of course the Cabinet is divided. A

1:12:051:12:11

strong leader would say, right, this

is what is happening. This is where

1:12:111:12:15

we are going. We will call it 35 or

40 billion. We will save to the

1:12:151:12:21

European Union, there is the check,

but it will not have a signature on

1:12:211:12:25

it until we are satisfied with the

next

1:12:251:12:38

stage. The government is hampered by

the lack of a strong personality who

1:12:441:12:46

could do that, make a political play

with other European leaders that

1:12:461:12:49

might break the deadlock.

Presumably

that is why the full Cabinet have

1:12:491:12:51

not discussed what the future Brexit

deal will be.

That is the

1:12:511:12:54

astonishing thing. There has been no

sort of vision of what Britain is

1:12:541:12:57

going to look like after Brexit. We

have got down in what the

1:12:571:13:00

negotiation position for tomorrow

will be. What does it look like in

1:13:001:13:05

terms of immigration, trade with the

rest of the world, what life will

1:13:051:13:08

look like for ordinarily... Ordinary

people?

There are visions for this,

1:13:081:13:13

but they will not agree on one. Is

there such a thing as a Tory Cabinet

1:13:131:13:19

Minister who could have one single

vision without them all ripping each

1:13:191:13:23

other's heads off? Probably not.

Thank you.

1:13:231:13:27

That's all for today.

1:13:271:13:29

Join me again next Sunday

at 11.00 here on BBC One.

1:13:291:13:31

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:311:13:35

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