19/02/2012 Sunday Politics London

Good afternoon. And welcome to the programme. What is 130 billion

euros between friends? After weeks of uncertainty, it looks like

Greece is going to get its second massive bail-out. But will it

rescue the economy from bankruptcy? David Cameron has been suggesting

more devolved powers if Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom,

but what does that really mean? We will be joined by the Scottish

Secretary, Michael Moore. And we will be playing good cop, bad cop,

as we discuss police commissioners. And our political panel will be

here to analyse British politics. In London, following the row over

the blocked deportation of Abu Qatada, just what should we do with

All that in the next hour. But first, the news. Good afternoon.. A

coach carrying British children has crashed in northern France, leaving

one man dead and 24 others seriously injured. The coach was

returning to Birmingham from an Italian ski resort, with 49

holidaymakers on board, 29 of them schoolchildren from a school in

Worcestershire. The accident happened in the early hours of the

morning. A man who was wanted over the murder of a vicar near Bristol

has been arrested on suspicion of murder. A nationwide hunt was

launched yesterday after the body of the vicar was discovered in his

home on Tuesday. Kent police say the man was held in Folkestone this

morning. The Reverend was found with multiple stab wounds at his

vicarage on Tuesday. He had only moved to the area last July from

Essex, where he had previously been filmed by the BBC. Today, Kent

police confirmed they had arrested the man they had been looking for

in connection with the murder. The 47-year-old was captured by police

in Folkestone at around 4am this morning. Avon & Somerset Police

named him as a suspect on Saturday, warning the public not to approach

him. Later that day, Sussex Police said she had been spotted in the

Hastings area, about 35 miles from where he was later arrested. A

high-visibility police presence has remained at the scene over the

weekend, at the small town, 11 miles from Bristol. Prayers have

been led there by other clergyman since Tuesday. St Mary's Church has

been behind police tape. Now, a section of that is being lifted to

allow parishioners into church for services today. It has been

reported that Iran is preparing to expand its nuclear programme.

Diplomats in Vienna say new machinery is ready to be installed

at an underground plant, which would speed up the country's

production of enriched uranium, which could be used in an atomic

bomb, although Tehran insists it is only going to use it to generate

electricity. Activists in Syria say the security forces have resumed

their bombardment of Homs. They say 20 people were killed yesterday in

various parts of the country. Relating -- latest fighting took

place as the Chinese deputy Prime Minister held talks in Damascus.

The British boxer Dereck Chisora has been arrested in Germany

following a brawl with David Haye, after his fight with Klitschko. The

fight in the press conference room resulted in one coach being left

bleeding from a cut to his head. Let's top tax first of all this

afternoon. Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls has this morning been calling

for temporary but significant tax cuts in the budget next month to

boost economic growth. He says if the Chancellor will not reduce VAT,

he should consider cutting income tax for ear. This is what he had to

say. Families are under real pressure, hit hard by of a increase

in VAT, that's why confidence is down, unemployment is rising,

businesses are not investing. I don't think a corporation tax cut,

or a tax cut for people on incomes of more than �150,000, will give

the injection which we need. Joining us now from Tunbridge Wells,

the De biggie chairman of the Conservative Party, Michael Fallon.

Your Lib Dem partners want you to raise the tax threshold, now Ed

Balls is saying you should do it - is this not an idea whose time has

come? No, let's remember, Ed Balls was Gordon Brown's right-hand man

when they racked up all of this debt. Doing what he wants would

mean even higher debt, which would mean that in the end we would lose

our AAA rating, and everybody would be paying more for their mortgages

and loans. Not a good idea. But he says you could raise the tax

threshold before you pay income tax to �10,000 - is the wrong to

suggest that, too? That is the long-term aim, and we have made

good progress, we have taken one million people out of tax

altogether, and the Chancellor hopes to do more each successive

budget. But every successive cut in tax has to be funded, and one thing

we cannot do is to borrow even more. But over five years, you're going

to borrow �150 billion more than you originally said you were - why

don't you borrow more to cut taxes to give the chance of stimulating

some growth? We cannot borrow even more, we have to stick to the plan.

This was the week that buried any kind of Plan B. Everybody, the

governor of the Bank of England, the Institute for Fiscal Studies,

the rating agencies, the CBI, all made it clear that absolutely we

have to stick to Plan A to deal with our debts, but also, to help

grow the economy through these difficult times. Could you just

remind our viewers, who is the traditional tax-cutting party in

Britain? The Conservatives have always believed in lower taxes. But

let me be clear, we have frozen council tax, we have raised

personal allowances for everybody, as well as taking the low paid out

of tax. We have stopped fuel duty increases. Where we can, of course

we have got to keep taxes low. But in the end, we have to deal with

our debts. And Ed Balls is the man who whacked those debts up in the

first place, and now wants us to borrow even more. Tomorrow, all

eyes will be on Greece, because European finance ministers are

expected to finance a 130 billion euros bail-out for the country. It

will come at a heavy price, with 150,000 public sector jobs to go in

the country. All that, with an economy which is already in

freefall. I spoke to a Greek minister, Constantine Papadopoulos,

and suggested that the eurozone no longer trusted Greece to put its

house in order. Yes, we need to do a lot more. Unless we start seeing

growth coming back into the economy, this is the kind of advice we will

be getting. You are in your fifth year of recession, the economy

shrunk by 7% last year, one in five Greeks are out of work - Halle will

more austerity make that better? have to analyse what kind of

austerity we're talking about. We are talking about streamlining the

public sector, because it has been growing all these years, it is way

out of proportion, compared with other European economies. Not only

is it large as a share of GDP, it is extremely ineffective. So, what

is being done, under the auspices of austerity, is to streamline the

government sector. Now, there are some other issues, for example, in

the private sector, bringing down, making more competitive salary

levels, so that we claw back some of the loss of competitiveness that

we experienced in the last dozen years, and aim for wage levels

which are closer to, for example, those in Spain. But in 2010, you

promised to do all of that, but you did not do it - why should we

believe you this time? That's a good question. The point is, we

have no other choice. I think it has come to the crunch, and do not

underestimate what we did under the first memorandum. A lot of things

were done, but a lot more needs to be done, and there is so much to do,

it would be unrealistic to expect things to happen in a matter of

team the years. I think if it was not for the pressure from the

financial markets, what we are aiming for would normally take

something like in the range of five or 10 years, that's how rubbish the

programme is. But we are forced to do it in a short space of time. --

that's how ambitious the programme is. Behind the scenes, have you

made any preparations for a default, or for an exit from the euro?

because that would destroy the economy. You do not factor in

auctions which will kill off any hope for redemption. Now, we have

to work within a very strict plan, in the hope of returning back to

growth, and becoming a fully- fledged member of the eurozone

again. If you exit the eurozone... We learned from the British Foreign

Minister this morning that Britain has made plans in case of a Greek

default. Yes, I think that's very much in tune with Western mentality,

to make plans for all possible options. I think that's perfectly

normal. But that's because they do not know how committed we are to

staying within the eurozone. So, of course, they make contingency plans,

that's what they are supposed to do. What do you say to German calls

that you should delay the April elections? That's an issue which is

much, much bigger than me, so I would rather not comment on that,

because it is a critical issue in which many, many party leaders are

involved. I can see where this view comes from, I can totally

understand, and the original plan was for the previous government to

be in place for four years, not two years. So, this creates a new

element of uncertainty, there is no doubt about it. What do you say to

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds

You'll see a totally different rankings, private and public.

you for joining us from Athens. David Cameron and Alex Salmond this

week resumed their tug-of-war over the future of Scotland. The Prime

Minister visited Edinburgh for talks over the staging of a

referendum but admitted afterwards that they had been little progress.

What are the sticking points? Alex Salmond wants a referendum to

include two questions, yes or no to independence, plus another one on

whether more powers should be given to Scotland, so-called devo max.

David Cameron says this will confuse voters and made a different

suggestion. Is there more that we can do to improve the divorce

settlement? Are there other powers that could be devolved? How can we

make the UK work better? Mr Alex Salmond accused the Prime a soft

try to trick Scottish voters. order for people to vote for or

against independence, they have to know what the alternative is. You

cannot have that vote with the Prime Minister saying, I have got

something else up my sleeve. there are other sticking points.

Alex Salmond wants to give 16-year- old the vote, and the timing of the

referendum is also an issue. The First Minister wants to hold it in

2014, Cameron wanted sooner rather than later. Scottish Secretary

Michael Moore, who is in Emma -- in Edinburgh, his power Sunday

interview. Let's be clear about where the red lines of the

coalition are in simple language. Well they're only be one question

on the ballot paper? -- Will there. We are consulting on all the issues

of the referendum, but I believe, as the Prime Minister set out, that

a single question is the way to get a decisive outcome that will allow

us in Scotland to determine whether we continue within the UK or go our

own separate ways. So is a single question on independence, is that

as far as Westminster is concerned, non-negotiable? There are a number

of areas of concern, but the reason for the single question is that the

need to be clear about what the outcome is. I do not think you can

muddle up a question about whether Scotland stays within the UK, the

most successful combination of nations in history, or goes on its

way with a decision about more powers for Scotland within the UK.

There is a lively debate there, one we are engaged in, but we need to

decide the central issue. You mentioned in your introduction the

issue of timing. We set out to the First Minister this week in our

meetings and also what the Prime Minister that we could have this

next year, in 2013, if we put our minds to that. It is hard for us to

see why on earth you would want to delay a decision as fundamental as

this for another three years. Let's get on with it sooner rather than

later. Can I interrupt for a minute? I will come on to timing,

but I know the case as put by you for a single question, I know that

is the coalition line. What I want to find out from New, in clear

English, is this non-negotiable? Will you insist on a single

independence question in the referendum? With the appropriate

respect, Andrew, and not gone to plan ahead of the consultation,

which is asking people for their views on this. -- not going to run

ahead. We have set out a clear preference. The Prime Minister

cannot be more clear when he was in Edinburgh on Thursday, and we

believe a single question is fundamental to having a decisive

outcome. We wait to see if other people have differences of opinion

are that, but even the SNP accepts that is the fundamental issue at

stake, and so we should proceed on that basis. Is it also the case

that whether the franchise goes to 16 and 17 year-olds, and on the

timing, but you are prepared to negotiate on both of these as well?

We are interested to see, on the timing, what the case is from the

First Minister and his colleagues for the delay which, as I say,

would require us to wait to make this huge decision of the best part

of three years, when we can do it now, by getting on with some of the

technical issues, to sort out the timing and the legal issues and do

it next year. I think it could be done, and I want to hear why they

think it cannot be done in that time frame. On the franchise, who

can vote, of course we want to see this done here in Scotland. The

fairest basis is to use the franchise that the elected the

parliament that gave the First Minister is mandates to have this

referendum. Will you insist on that? We want to hear what people

across Scotland say, that is what consultation is about, but we have

not yet had a convincing argument that says you should change the

basis of the franchise on this one- off referendum, otherwise you could

start opening the whole debate up to lots of other people, saying

they should be part of it. Let's have a simple, clear franchise, the

same as the Scottish parliament one. The Prime Minister said that once

the referendum is over, and assuming Scotland votes to stay

part of the UK, he will look again at the devolution settlement, but

the possibility of more powers being sent to Edinburgh. When the

government give details of what these further powers would be in

the run-up to the referendum? think it is important that that

debate is going on. It has already started. As a Liberal Democrat, my

party in Scotland is already looking at what we call home rule

might look like in the 21st century, whether it is about more tax powers,

the welfare system, fundamental issues. But the Liberal Democrats

are not the only party in this debate. The Conservatives, the

Labour Party, people in the churches, the business community,

the voluntary sector, everybody will want to be part of that debate.

In the past, we have had the debate, said that the ideas, come together

in a consensus, and it is now the basis on which I am piloting huge

new financial powers through the Scottish parliament. Cross-party

consensus after a very vigorous debate. We will have the debate,

but once we have determined whether we are staying in the UK or not...

But before we votes on the referendum, will we know what

further devolution means? No, the individual parties and the parts of

Scotland want to be part of the debate, and I anticipate it is most

people, will need to set out their views on this, will need to come

together. There is no lack of ambition amongst the Liberal

Democrat to get on with that debate, but let me put one other point to

you. It is not just about as setting out what the alternative

will be. The important thing is that they can be further devolution,

and that is a great step for us to be contemplating. The SNP has

failed so parties What an independent Scotland would look

like and the different issues around currency and defence as well.

Very briefly, Alex Salmond will lead the campaign for Scottish

independence. Who will lead the fight for the union? There will be

a broad range of people on both sides of the argument, I am sure.

Who will lead it? That will emerge over time, but I think he will see

on the side of the argument that once Scotland to stay in the UK a

much broader based team of people from different political parties,

but this is not for the politicians alone. It will be for people across

the country in Scotland. Last week, some of you may have

seen the Labour leader say this on the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire.

He would be a great Police Commissioner. You support John

Prescott? As always in these things, we will have a vote in the Labour

Party as to who the best candidates are four Police Commissioner. Look,

John Prescott is a very unstoppable force, I'm sure he would be a great

Police Commissioner. He will not thump you now. Definitely not!

man in question thinks he would not be bad at the job either. Does he

have the right credentials? In a moment, he will go head-to-head

with Ian Black, who used to be in charge of the Metropolitan Police,

The system for watching the police is being worked up. Right now,

forces in England and Wales are overseen by police authorities made

up of councillors and appointees, but this year they are all being

scrapped. Instead, on 15th November, voters will be electing a police

and crime Commissioner for their local area. There will be 41 in

total, they will be in charge of setting local budgets and

priorities. They will also have the The policing minister, Nick Herbert,

is steering through his trademark Tory policy. The big idea is to

give people a real say in policing priorities for the first time. In

the past, these decisions have been taken behind closed doors, behind

invisible committees, but somebody has still hold the police to

account. It is a monopoly public service. You cannot choose your

police force. Virtually every aspect of that worries Sir Hugh

Orde. One of Britain's top officers, he is worried about one thing most

of all. It will change the British policing model. We have impartial

policing in this country. Chief officers make decisions on how best

to keep citizens safe across a huge range of activities that we have to

deal with, and then we are held to account for what we do, and that

must not change. That is why we have the strategic policing

requirements built into the Bill to make sure the position of the tea

is distinguished from the person that hold he or she to account.

the Bill paving the way for all of this went through Parliament, it

was opposed by Labour, who argued it is a waste of money when the

police are facing cut to their budget of 20% over the next four

years. But that does not stop some big-hitters coming forward as

potential candidates, like former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott,

along with Colonel Tim Collins, a commander during the Iraq War. And

the famous veteran of the Falklands, Simon Weston. The mayor of London,

Boris Johnson, is already doing the job at the Metropolitan Police

Authority was scrapped in January. Think back to the debates about the

response to the riots across England last summer, and you will

be reminded that policing is already deeply political. It is

And John Prescott and Ian Blair are with me now. You agree with Ed

Miliband that John Prescott would make a great Police Commissioner?

think he would do a great job, but I do not think they should be such

a job. Other than that, he would be great. You agree? Yeah! Would you

do a better job of running Humberside that he did of running

the match? The exactly the same. I worked with him at the time, very

impressive guy. Is this a good idea? Be is a completely terrible

idea, because it has not been thought through. This is the

introduction of a foreign species into an indigenous environment. Let

me give you a tiny example. If you go to Martha's Vineyard in United

States, it is half the size of the Isle of Wight, it has six police

forces, and the biggest one has got 26 people, police officers, and the

population love it. But that model is being dropped on two places as

big as Devon and Cornwall, as big as Northumbria, the West Midlands.

I just do not understand how one person can represent the enormous

variety of political views that stretch across some of these big

police forces. I understand what he says about the Midlands, and the

area and tried to do is Humberside, a population of about one million,

quite different from the Midlands. But really the functions of the job

are quite clearly laid out. I think that we voted against them because

basically 125 million the election, you could get 4,000 police on the

front line, and that is what we feel about it. But the government

has decided to go for this, and the voice of the people is distinct

from the operational duties of the chief of police. They have got to

get on with the job, but the first job of the Commission is to produce

a crime plant, and the security and crime plan that is available. That

has to be agreed between the two parties. We used to do that to a

certain extent with the police authority, so it is not unique, but

the one person with a statutory responsibility, that is what the

government has done, to find out the voice of the people, to

actually say to the Chief Constable. So what is wrong with elected

representatives being involved in the police? The police follow the

public's priorities rather than their own. There is nothing wrong

with it. It has been going on for the last 150 years. The differences,

one person, and that person having untrammelled power over the chief

constable. It is not untrammelled. There is a body being set up that

can actually veto what the Commissioner says. They can only...

Wants the commission has said he has no confidence in the Chief

Constable, that is over. Let me tell you this, there were eight

pages in the Greater London Act about how the Commissioner of the

Metropolitan Police could be suspended, investigated etcetera.

Boris did not need any of those eight pages. He just says, I have

not confidence, and that is the end. one, how can you work with someone

who does not have confidence in you? I have worked with a few

people have not had confidence in me! We are talking about the

people's voice, somebody has to reflect that view. I agree it is

difficult in the West Midlands, when it is so big, but Humberside...

Humberside is fine, Bedfordshire would be fine. But the point about

its... So are right in certain parts of the country? I think the

whole idea is wrong, I did say it at the beginning, in a small,

confined area, this becomes more possible. I still have the

objection about the untrammelled hiring and firing, but when you

have got an area which is well spread out, let's Tate Thames

Valley, for instance. It has Slough at one end, and at the other end

God's own country around chipping Norton. How does one person

represent that? Once they are elected as a conservative, say,

they are not going to be interested in Slough. Do not underestimate

what they have said about the people, who can say, with two-

thirds of the authority among that his considerable -- two-thirds of

the authorities set up to oversee the commission of. This has come

about because they think professional coppers follow your

own priorities and not the priorities of the people. Well, if

they actually read the priorities of the Metropolitan Police, they

were established by the police authority in open debate with

television cameras rolling, with members of the public in the

audience. How many millions are in London? That is distinctly

different. I am still with you that it is a bad idea, we voted against

it, but in this case, let's take Humberside. The police chief has to

come to an agreement about the plan, the money is being given to the

commissioner, he has to agree with the police chief. It is about the

personalities, to a certain extent, no doubt, but the person with the

voice of the people is going to have more influence than the police

authority in getting that balance between crime and security in the

plan for the next five years. is it that we deal with the wicked

issues that he Ward was talking about beyond the local? Who is

going to be interested in your election about counter-terrorism,

about organised crime? They have not got a lot of terrorists in Hull.

We have got terrorists everywhere, I assure you! I agree, we are

working towards a national body. That is what is on the horizon here,

but we already have a regional bodies dealing with crime, that is

bigger than Humberside. Yes, that will come into it, and you do have

to have a national policy for that. They are passing it down locally

and they are going to stand back and say, not us, it is those people

in your area! We have to leave it there. Also contesting the Labour

nomination in Humberside are Colin Inglis, former leader of all City

Council, ad Keith Hunter, former chief superintendent with

Humberside police. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in

20 minutes, I will be looking at the week ahead with our political

panel. Until then, the Sunday Hello, welcome to the London part

of the show. Here in the capital this week:

What exactly is being done about people who come from abroad and

commit crime on London's streets? And here with us for the next 20

minutes we have two MPs elected to the last general election, Stella

Creasy, who also serves as shadow Home Office Minister, and Nick

Debrois. Let me start by asking you both how did you get here today?

the tube, of course. No buses? on the bus, overground and tube.

From Monday the exciting news for Londoners is that it's all change

on the buses. We are going to get the routeMasters back. I wonder how

you feel about that. Anyone who watched a bus go past because it's

too full would rather the money have been spent on more buses than

this kind of very expensive photo shoot propaganda that Boris has got.

It's a shame. I mean, you know, nice design but actually we have

real problems with overcrowding on buses. I am sure you are getting

complaints as well. It could have been spent better, couldn't it?

investment on the first few for innovative and green and effective

transport bus is welcome and the costs will come down to about that

for a bus but remember we would never have been in this position

had Ken stuck to his pledge not to get rid of them in the first place.

Boris has picked it up. He's pledged to get rid of the bendy bus

which was very unpopular. Don't start on the bendy bus, it is only

a 20-minute programme! In January, they were told they would have to

go and next Wednesday the Occupy London campaign makes a last-ditch

attempt to reverse that decision at the court of appeal. It's expected

the protesters will be given their final marching orders. So, the

question is after a five-month occupation in front of St Paul's

Cathedral and enormous global publicity, what do the protesters

think they've achieved? We have achieved so much, changed the media

discourse, even politicians are talking about crony capitalism and

democratic form of capitalism. There is still a lot to highlight.

The financial crisis still does need to be rammed home and the

ramifications of the what the financial crisis has done here.

have satisfied we have put across what we needed to. Now we are

asking for the justice system to live up to its name and not just

necessarily appay tension to the laws -- pay attention to the laws

because laws have been written by what you call the 1%. It's a

miracle, we had no idea it would be so successful. We have interviewed

on the media worldwide. Every country of the world, Al-Jazerra,

TV Iran, Syria. We go on about these Middle Eastern countries,

ours is more sutly corrupt than they are. Well, we are joined now

by Tammy from Occupy London. In fact, you are the single named

defendant on the eviction proceedings. That doesn't mean that

you are tkpwog pay all court costs t just means they've identified you

as the one point of contact in this. What do you think has been the

success of your campaign of occupation? I mean, we've actually

started a dialogue about the current financial system, the

economic crisis, the global economic crisis as well as things

we are talking about in the UK. We have got a dialogue going. If you

look at the media right now, since we have been occupying there's so

many more conversations happening. There were conversations about it

before, but there's so much more of it happening now, which is a good

start. Many of those conversations have started from a position of

hostility that you have caused a great deal of inconvenience, that

it is - it's caused perhaps even intimidation to worshipers who

would have gone to St Paul's to pray. I wonder now you look back

would you have done anything differently? Me personally, I can't

speak on behalf of the whole Occupy on that. Personally Wye have done

exactly the same again. I would continue to do it it over and over

again until we have some beginnings of change. That's interesting. Does

that mean that over and over again feeling that you have, does that

mean no matter what the courts say on Wednesday, you are there to

stay? You know, I mean, the judge may well decide to make an eviction

order and that particular camp is full of lots of individuals as much

as we are a group of people and people make their own decision.

There is some feeling of people may wish to peacefully resist, not

fight are be violent. We certainly don't want a - people may

peacefully resist. You think there will be resistance? How many people

are actually there, there are reports there aren't many people

there at all? Lots of empty tents there. Not everybody can stay there

all day and all night every day. So it's on a rolling thing. Some

people stay. - I stay firmly// for the four months. Some people unable

to do that so they will support it at the weekend. People go to work

and come back in the evening. The tents are never going to be

completely full and neither are any houses on any street in any part of

the UK. Nobody's home is permanently occupied 24 hours a day.

People do things. Let's talk to our guests. Certainly we are talking

about it now, it has occupied many of the headlines since they moved

in. It is actually mission accomplished then? I think that's

the point actually T has been in the headlines T has been spoken

about. It's been raised in fairness across the conscience of a lot of

different... Because of people like Tammy? They put it on the agenda.

But they should have moved on and they should move on and move on

peacefully. I don't like and would never really approve of such an

iconic area which has, apart from the fact it's a Church, it's a

practising Church with local communities and businesses, you

have made your point. Move on. You have made your point pretty

profoundly. Had they decided to have a campaign in a site somewhere

far away from the City or the cameras, nobody would have noticed.

You can have your ifs and buts and speculate on different routes but

the fact is you are already in danger of actually losing the

momentum and the argument that you started with, by staying there any

longer. Stella Creasy? There's lots of challenges, I agree no doubt you

have raised the debate and there are a lot of people who haven't

been down to the camp but would share concerns you are raising

about the financial system, about our economy, inequality in our

society. I guess my concern, and particularly why did I go into

politics, was that we need to find answers as well as raise challenges

and the issue for Occupy London, indeed a lot of the movements, it's

not entirely clear to a lot of us what the next step is and I would

just say that I think the most pourle and construck -- powerful

and constructive thing to do is to engage in debate. If the judgment

goes against do you you stay in those tents? I will stay and resist

personally, I don't intend to be involved in a fight. I don't intend

myself to be objects strucking bailiffs, I do intend to exercise

my democratic right peacefully. will much that -- watch that with

great interest. There's been a lot of discussion this week about

Europe's role in the deportation of Abu Qatada, held in a British jail

for six years without being convicted of a crime. But what

about those criminals who have been convicted of an offence and are

sitting in British prisons? The way in which they're dealt with could

well set the Prime Minister on a collision course with his own party

as Andrew Cryen has been finding out.

Despite nearly half of London's workforce being born abroad there

is one area where British citizens still seem to dominate. Crime.

According to police data obtained by Sunday Politics in three

quarters of offences where the Met Police took action the accused was

British. Pushing up the charts in second, third and fourth place are

Poland, Romania and Lithuania, suggesting that the wave of eastern

European migration to the capital, beneficial in many ways, could have

had negative impacts on public safety.

Stories like Chris's may help explain the figures. These days he

works for the charity which helps European Unions in London. For six

years he lived on the streets, committing anti-social behaviour,

and low level offences like fare dodging. TRANSLATION:

If you sleep on streets for a long time, you sleep rough, drink

alcohol, you become oblivious to police, you think if they lock you

up doesn't matter, at least I can have a chance to rest. If the

penalty had been deportation it might have been different.

Deporting back to Poland would definitely make me more careful

about doing silly things. I know people who have been to Polish

prisons and they are really bad. Compared to them English prison is

like a Spa. If I knew I would definitely be deported to Poland, I

would think twice about my behaviour. And as of December last

year, sending European criminals back to their country of origin

became easier. A new EU directive came into force meaning the UK

could deport prisoners without their consent. Much tougher rules

than existed before. But this power may be short-lived. In 2014 it's

one of a package of 130 criminal justice laws which the Government

has to decide whether it wants to hand over to the European Court of

justice. The point is not to look at these individual items in

isolation. The point is that they are part of a bigger plan, a bigger

project to create an EU-wide criminal justice system and the

issue is do we want to be part of that and want to be part of that if

it's governored by or the last port of call is a European judge in

Luxembourg rather than a judge in the UK?

And come 2014 the Government's choice is either to transfer all

130, or the laws will stop applying to the UK at all. Including the new

powers over deportation. It's difficult issue for the coalition

because the Liberal Democrats have often historically been in favour

of a lot of these measures and EU- wide policing measures and criminal

justice measures, where the Conservatives haven't. Already over

100 Conservative MPs are on the record urging the Government to

resist the transfer of powers. Exactly what would happen to the

Government's ability to remove foreign crim tphapls and what

effect this might have on the safety of the capital's streets is

open to debate. We are joined now by Brian Paddick.

Really interesting things there in that report. First of all, there is

this perception is there not, I am looking at a paper from the last

few days about a murder by a Polish burglar of an elderly couple. The

perception certainly is that there is a crimewave sweeping this

country because of the immigration from European Europe. That doesn't

-- Eastern Europe. That doesn't seem borne out by the statistics.

We have have always had people from other countries here committing

crime, gangs, for example, carrying out pick-pocketing in the West End

is a well known phenomenon. We have the Tories saying they don't want

to be part of these collaboration with the European police forces,

for example, which is going to help combat this sort of crime. Even

though the European Union will still mean that they are allowed to

come to this country. Before we get into the European Union issue, I

know Nick will have a lot to say about that because he signed an

important letter on it, before we get to that, is the reason that

there are a - a 15% I suppose arrest ratio, is that down to the

fact that actually police find it hard tore crack that kind of crime?

They're plugged into the British crime scene, if you like, but when

you have a foreign imported crime scene it's much harder to do their

job so it isn't really a reflective statistic? I don't think so at all.

We just heard from that report that the sort of crimes people from

Eastern Europe are involved in are minor crime, things fare dodging,

anti-social behaviour on the street. Clearly if there are more organised

gangs from Eastern Europe then collaboration between the UK force

and European forces is going to be very important, but most of the

crime is very minor and low level. Does that give a correct impression

of what kind of problems European immigration is causing? There's two

things to look at. First of all, look at the number of foreign

prisoners currently in our jails which is extremely high and many

come from Europe, many come from outside Europe and that's to be

dealt with. That's a travesty going on there. Turning to the point

that's just been raised here, there is absolutely no need to transfer

democratic powers over to Europe as has been required in 2014 or asked.

You can still collaborate, you can still actually co-operate, as we

proved in working with Norway on a recent issue, as we have already

had in practice on other issues. So there's no need to subjectgate the

democratic role to collaborate. this being turned by yourself and

the other significant knitories s this being turned into a more of a

Europe issue than crime and punishment? Let me give you a very

good example. Already just before Christmas a lot of European

countries signed up in principle to having the automatic transfer of

offenders to go and serve their sentences in other countries.

Actually only six have implemented, of which we are one, so we could

have had an tkpwhreplt in place. However, the remaining countries

still haven't got it on their books. This isn't about Europe. It's

actually a case of about how to reduce the foreign prisoners and

just co-operate with our neighbours. Well, I justice think Nick and his

colleagues have to decide whether it's more important to grandstand

on Europe or get to grip with issues. We have seen 700 fewer

national criminals being deported than under the previous

administration. Many of us have concerns that the UKBA doesn't have

it together to deal with this problem. Would you be happy for

these 130 laws to be handed over to the European courts of justice,

rather than our own courts? We are talk being a power that allows to

us take somebody who has committed a crime in the UK and deport them.

The issue for Nick and his colleagues are they going to help

make that process... It's more than that. When we had the bombings in

2005 we were able to very quickly get one of the suspects for the

21st July deported under the European arrest warrant. That would

not exist if we do what the Tories are suggesting that we do. These

are very important laws that are in place. It makes London safer to

have these laws in place. Now, we are talking about only the European

Court being the final arbiter of these decisions. There's the whole

British court system that has to go through before you goat that.

Are the Tories on a collision course with the police? I think

they are, it will make their job more difficult, it will make you

appear in collaboration more difficult. Let's put that to our

Tory MP. Making a European issue out of this, the reality is that if

you are gone to talk about European arrest warrant, it sounds to me, in

the interests of expediency, which is the reasons why the Labour

government brought it into place, we are now having British subjects

extradited to other countries and being put through some terrible

injustices as a result of the European arrest warrant. Now, it

may have worked in that instance, but as the Scott Baker report has

highlighted, they have been a lot of instances where it has failed

British citizens. Do you think people watching us will say, I

don't care, I just want them out of our country? Absolutely, over the

last 10 or 11 years, we have got a state where we have got 11,000

foreign prisoners in our jails. We tried to get an agreement with

Europe to get rid of 25% of them, it failed. A final word on this.

You already struggling to get the paperwork together to get people

out of this country. That is the problem that the UKBA has now. He

will make it harder for that to happen, so we will see more foreign

prisoners let loose. How do you explain the fact that we had 11,000

who was still in our prisons? have deported 700 fewer in the last

year, and the report from inspectors says it because you have

not got the paperwork together. Thank you very much for being with

us. What else has been happening in the City this week? Gerry Thomas

A councillor seeking a legal review over the HS2 rail link that would

cause over 200 homes to be demolished, mostly social housing

in Camden. Campaigners in Lewisham occupied 15 houses about to be sold

by the council in what the squatters claim was a knock-down

sale which would exacerbate the area's housing crisis. Later in the

week, Lewisham council withdrew five homes from the sale. The

extremist Muslim cleric Abu Qatada was freed from jail to live in

London, sparking a furious row that is a threat to national security.

The European Court of Human Rights blocked his deportation to Jordan

on the grounds that evidence obtained by torture might be used

against him. Boris Johnson will cut council tax every year if he is re-

elected. According to his chief-of- staff, Sir Edward Lister, the mayor

aims to reduce the share of the tax, which runs TfL, the vile Poti, the

Metropolitan Police and the Olympics. -- the fire authority.

Well, why don't we pick up on that last story? There has been quite a

hullabaloo about this cut in council tax, it is only a few quid

per year, something like just over �3, is it worth making such a noise

about that? Well, I notice that our opponents have been making a noise

to that effect, saying you can barely buy a copy for it. That is

very disparaging. The context to look at this in is an aim to make

national cuts in City Hall and reduce it by 10% over the next term

of office. It should be welcomed. And it should be put against the

background that the government have also allowed councils to freeze tax

for two years as well. These things add up, they are important. A much

bigger figure, and the Ken Livingstone, the council tax

precept went up by 150%. And Ken is talking about cutting fares in

London. If you on the minimum wage, you are paying a third of your

income on fares. Ken is talking about putting �1,000 back into

pockets. Let's talk about what will make a difference... No, we are

talking about council tax. Ken has made a specific pledge about

cutting fares by 7%, freezing them in following years. That is against

Boris's change. Even if Boris's giving you �3 per year, he will

take it away in fares on buses and tubes. People will draw their own

conclusions if you don't want to talk about council tax. His is an

elections we know? No, it is consistent with council tax been

reduced wherever possible. That is the Sunday Politics in London.

The eye and not sure it was a particularly impressive momentum in

the first place. To start with, the Poles are looking for him OK, he

seems to have stabilised his position, a few points ahead of the

Tories. One of the opinion poll has the Tories ahead in a Labour paper.

The Lib Dems is on seven, that is some comfort to the rest of them.

What do you think? There are two issues dominating people's minds at

the moment that Labour is hammering on, the NHS and the economy. In

both cases, what we are seeing his team going for it, they are not

letting go of it. I think that is symptomatic of something that is

happening behind the scenes, which is Ed Balls' agenda is now

increasingly the only one to be going for. Just before the recess,

we saw David Miliband raising his head and nothing came of it. So

what we are seeing is a strong, consistent line on those two issues

which will continually be pushed and carry on in this week ahead.

Now, that has the advantage of being strong, but there are a few

people in the Labour Party who are saying, OK, what happens to the

radical agenda, responsible capitalism, the more radical

politics? Are we just going back? remember when responsible

capitalism was regarded as a sell- out in the Labour Party. Not a

radical agenda, that would be socialism. The remarkable thing

about politics at the moment is not momentum, it is stability. Tories

and Labour have been at level- pegging for a while, and if you dig

into the underlying questions, Labour's performance on some

questions is consistently horrendous. The most striking

bowling question recently, who would you trust to make unpopular

decisions? 52% think that is the Tories, 9% think it is Labour,

roughly the same percentage to think that Elvis is still alive.

is, isn't he? You might know! on the dark side of the move.

may have seen them. There is a question about how long does

opinion polls can continue when the Conservatives' record and the

editors of the economy is so shocking. But how long has that

Labour expectation been going on? George Osborne gave the bleakest

economic statement a Chancellor has given since the war, and it has

made zero impact on the main polling question of the economic

competence Barling question. There was a significant intervention from

Alex Neil turned on the Labour website Labour list, and as I

understand it, he is on the soft left of the party, and he is having

an absolutely blistering go at Ed Miliband in the last couple of days,

saying he is not a leader. I mean, enjoy reading it. It is not very

loyal. It is a phenomenally critical piece. You can always

trust your colleagues to do you down! If it is significant it is

being attacked from the left and the right. George Osborne is being

attacked by the left and the right, anyway. The budget is not far away,

Maj 21st, we have got the Lib Dems, who have always wanted to take

everybody out of tax below �10,000. Now Ed Balls is saying, if you do

not want that, do it that way as well. It is intriguing that there

is an alliance between Ed Balls and the Tory Right, who also wants the

Chancellor to cut taxes. People see it as somehow perverse that a Tory

chancellor is the one who is resisting calls for tax cuts, but

he will know that there has always been two forms of conservative

attitude on this action. Reignites believe you can cut taxes and

stimulate the economy. -- reignites. Then there is straightforward

fiscal Conservatives who believe you can only cut taxes if you can

pay for it. Osborne has always been a fiscal conservative, rather than

the other way. He ruled out unfunded tax cuts as Shadow

Chancellor, so I'm not sure why people are surprised by this.

whole thing about George Osborne is quite depressing. When he talks

about the economy, it is like he is talking about a storm or an

earthquake, something that he has no control over whatsoever. It is

almost like an impotent weather man coming out and talking about it.

The public are increasingly thinking, it is your job to sort

that out. When did you see him coming out and talking about it?

George Osborne is virtually invisible. Danny Alexander is being

used... That is true. Danny Alexander is being used as a

periscope. Haven't the focus group people said, keep him under wraps?

Maybe in Scotland, yeah! May be everywhere, as I understand it.

on the point of him taking the laissez faire view, is the evidence

that the public are on side with that? Labour polls partly on the

economy still. The public believes that as long as international

events remain convulsive, especially in Europe, it is

unrealistic to expect an open economy like Britain to be growing

at a rapid clip. If the government is using international events as an

excuse, the public think it is a good excuse. We saw the interview

with the Greek finance minister has. Is any of this come to work?

whole of Greece? I think there's going to come a point where the

economic damage and the degradation to national sovereignty of the

situation that is being imposed on Greece is going to be too much of a

burden, too much of a cost for them to pay. We heard this week that

even the Greek opposition will have to sign up to the cuts that are

being imposed, and that seems to be fundamentally undemocratic and

really quite unsustainable. They are saying, we are not going to

give your all the money, we are putting it into an escrow account

because we do not trust you. Germany is saying, do not have

elections, do not bother. It is not like Greece is the home of

democracy, do not have that! We may come back, will put a group into

atoms, and we will tell you how to spend the money. I can see why

people are alarmed by this and why they feel it is undemocratic, and I

agree with that. But I'm not a German or Dutch taxpayer or Finnish

taxpayer. If I were, I may look at this and think, we have provided

bailout money in return for the promise of reform which has not

taken place. We want something for something, not something for

nothing. Tacitus is not Greek, he was German. They created a desert

and called it peace. The reason I am looking worried is because I

think you are testing me on my history! What worried me about the

interview is he admitted there was no contingency plan. I hope this

was simply for the cameras, because otherwise where will we be? William

Hague said on the Andrew Marr Show that we had a contingency plan!

There is a shift of thinking and our government behind the scenes. A

few months ago, it was obvious to everyone that Greece leaving the

euro would be the worst situation for everyone concerned, not just

Greece, but Britain and Europe. People now seem to think it is a

finer calculation. They still think Greece staying in is the least bad

alternative, but it is a closer calculation, and that is not a

public position but it is going on behind the scenes. The former

finance minister of Argentina, Your article in the Economist, John

Prescott, sorry he could not stay to talk to... I am so disappointed!

There is a group of bookies outside waiting for you because of your

campaigning in south London. Excellent, bring it on! That is a