27/05/2012 Sunday Politics London


27/05/2012

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Morning, folks. Welcome to Sunday Politics.

:00:41.:00:45.

Labour is riding high in the polls and after more bad economic news

:00:45.:00:48.

this week, the opposition is catching up on the key question for

:00:48.:00:52.

voters: which party can best run the economy? But can Labour

:00:52.:00:56.

convince a sceptical business community that it's friend, not foe.

:00:56.:00:58.

Shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna thinks so and he joins us

:00:58.:01:04.

for the Sunday Interview. Last night, Britons cast their

:01:04.:01:09.

votes and had their say on Europe. But could we soon be voting on a

:01:09.:01:12.

more profound issue than who should win the Eurovision Song Contest -

:01:12.:01:14.

namely, whether Britain should leave the European Union all

:01:14.:01:19.

together? UKIP's deputy leader and a former Europe Minister go head to

:01:19.:01:22.

head on whether it's time to stay in Eurovision but walk away from

:01:22.:01:27.

the EU. All that and the best political

:01:27.:01:31.

panel in the business analysing the week ahead - expect a lot on the

:01:31.:01:34.

Leveson inquiry and tweeting with the abandon of Jeremy Hunt on a

:01:34.:01:44.
:01:44.:01:45.

The government says it is satisfied with measures taken since the 7th

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July terror attack. We hear from others including survivors, who

:01:48.:01:57.

All that between now and noon. But first, the news with Maxine

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Mahwhinney. Good morning. The Conservative

:02:00.:02:03.

party co-chairman, Lady Warsi, is facing questions about an expenses

:02:03.:02:10.

claim for rental payments in London. The landlord told the Sunday Times

:02:10.:02:15.

he didn't receive any money from her. Lady Warsi has said she paid a

:02:15.:02:17.

friend who was renting the house. Our political correspondent, Terry

:02:17.:02:23.

Stiastny, reports. The claims made against the

:02:23.:02:27.

Conservative Party's co-chairman, Baroness Warsi, centre on the time

:02:27.:02:31.

she spent staying at a flat in Acton in west London in 2008. Lady

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Warsi said that although she mainly stayed at hotels in London, there

:02:35.:02:38.

was a period of around six weeks when she spent occasional nights at

:02:38.:02:42.

the flat. Lady Warsi did claim expenses for her overnight

:02:42.:02:46.

accommodation during this period. At the time, peers were entitled to

:02:46.:02:51.

claim up to �165 a night for staying in London. In a statement,

:02:51.:03:01.
:03:01.:03:02.

However, the owner of the flat told The Sunday Times that he didn't

:03:02.:03:12.
:03:12.:03:15.

An adviser to Baroness Warsi, who also stayed at the flat that time,

:03:15.:03:19.

said Lady Warsi made a financial payment on each occasion which

:03:19.:03:23.

compensated him. A Labour MP has called for the House of Lords

:03:23.:03:27.

authorities to investigate further. More questions about expenses in

:03:27.:03:30.

Westminster will bring back bad memories of the expenses crisis of

:03:30.:03:40.

recent years. The United States has said

:03:40.:03:43.

President Assad's "rule by murder and fear" in Syria must come to an

:03:43.:03:48.

end. Yesterday, United Nations observers said more than 90 people

:03:48.:03:52.

had been killed near Homs, 32 of them children under the age of ten.

:03:52.:03:55.

The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, has summoned the charge

:03:55.:03:59.

d'affaires to the Foreign Office and has called for energy meeting

:03:59.:04:04.

of the Security Council. Campaigners opposed to a trial of

:04:04.:04:06.

genetically modified wheat in Hertfordshire have been banned from

:04:06.:04:09.

holding a rally at the test site because of concern that the crop

:04:09.:04:12.

may be damaged. Opponents had been planning a day of action against

:04:12.:04:15.

the experiment, but the Home Office authority obtained an order to ban

:04:15.:04:20.

them from surrounding land. A rally is taking place in a park nearby.

:04:20.:04:22.

Hundreds of households in the north-east of Scotland have been

:04:23.:04:25.

asked to take measures to protect themselves against high levels of a

:04:26.:04:28.

gas which has been linked to lung cancer. The Scottish Government

:04:28.:04:31.

issued the warning after increased levels of radon were detected in

:04:31.:04:34.

more than 800 properties in Aberdeenshire.

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That's it. There's more news here on BBC One at 5:50pm. Andrew.

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These are challenging times for the British economy, and the coalition

:04:47.:04:50.

government is paying the price, with Labour now pulling away in the

:04:50.:04:53.

opinion polls and Ed Miliband and Ed Balls catching up with David

:04:53.:04:56.

Cameron and George Osborne when it comes to who voters most trust to

:04:56.:04:59.

run the economy. But if Labour wants to make the issue their own

:04:59.:05:02.

they could do with the endorsement of business, but that's a

:05:02.:05:04.

relationship that has always been complicated.

:05:04.:05:08.

Under Tony Blair, relations between New Labour and business were close.

:05:08.:05:12.

Too close for many in his party. But Labour leader Ed Miliband has

:05:12.:05:16.

signalled a very different approach with his talk of producers and

:05:16.:05:21.

predators. Despite that rhetoric, chukka a mother has vowed to

:05:21.:05:26.

rebuild Labour's relationship with business -- Chuka Umunna has vowed.

:05:26.:05:30.

Promising to become their voice in opposition. What other big issues

:05:30.:05:34.

that businesses face? The biggest is the state of the economy. We

:05:34.:05:38.

learnt that it shrank by 0.3% in the first quarter, more than

:05:38.:05:42.

previously thought. The IMF said the government's deficit reduction

:05:42.:05:46.

plan had delivered substantial progress, and its head, Christine

:05:46.:05:50.

Lagarde, said she looked back with horror at the state of the public

:05:50.:05:57.

finances left by Labour. When I think back myself to May 2010, when

:05:57.:06:02.

the UK deficit was at 11%, I tried to imagine what the situation would

:06:02.:06:06.

be like today if no such fiscal consolidation programme had been

:06:06.:06:12.

decided. I shiver. This week also saw the publication of the Beecroft

:06:12.:06:17.

report, which recommended cutting employment regulation. An idea that

:06:17.:06:21.

was backed by business but attacked by Labour. Government ministers

:06:21.:06:25.

upset business leaders earlier this month by telling them to work

:06:25.:06:29.

harder. Labour is hoping that this souring of relations presents an

:06:29.:06:33.

opportunity for them to rebuild their own tattered relationship

:06:33.:06:37.

with business. The Shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna joins us for

:06:37.:06:47.
:06:47.:06:51.

Welcome. You admit Labour lost support of business at the last

:06:51.:06:55.

election, you would like to win it back, naturally. On making it

:06:55.:07:00.

easier to hire and fire people, you say that is a distraction. Almost

:07:00.:07:04.

every business lobby in the country says the opposite. First of all,

:07:04.:07:08.

let's be frank. Business doesn't necessarily speak with one voice on

:07:08.:07:14.

all matters. For example a voice might be put up on BBC programmes,

:07:14.:07:18.

but his experience might be different from small businesses in

:07:18.:07:22.

my constituency. I used to practise as an employment lawyer before I

:07:22.:07:26.

was elected. If you look at the proposals in that Beecroft report,

:07:26.:07:30.

for example the one that has featured very strongly is this

:07:30.:07:35.

proposal to allow employers to fire at will, that is something that the

:07:35.:07:37.

British Chambers of Commerce has said this week they wouldn't want

:07:37.:07:43.

to see. The real issue for many businesses... Let's look at what

:07:43.:07:49.

the BCC said. They said Adrian Beecroft is right to point out that

:07:50.:07:53.

at a time when millions of people are unemployed, ministers should be

:07:53.:07:59.

looking for ways to make it easier, less costly to employ people. They

:07:59.:08:03.

may not like everything but they are broadly in favour of it. What

:08:03.:08:08.

we have argued for, in order to do that, is for a National Insurance

:08:08.:08:11.

break for micro businesses. That is something that the Federation of

:08:11.:08:15.

Small Businesses has argued strongly for. That would make a

:08:15.:08:19.

difference when you are looking to grow your business and take a --

:08:19.:08:22.

take people on. If you look at the concerns that businesses have, I

:08:22.:08:26.

don't deny that employment law is a concern. It would be remiss of me

:08:26.:08:33.

to do that given my and experience. But a survey has been done, 51%

:08:33.:08:40.

said the number of -- the lack of skills is their number one concern.

:08:40.:08:44.

They don't run small businesses. Let's look at the Institute of

:08:44.:08:48.

Directors. I don't think you can produce a single group that

:08:48.:08:52.

represents business that supports your point of view. Beecroft's

:08:52.:08:58.

recommendations are encouraging... They don't support you. I think it

:08:58.:09:02.

is a load of nonsense. What he is saying? If you would let me get a

:09:02.:09:06.

word in edgeways, to take one group and say they represent a whole of

:09:06.:09:12.

business would be misleading. produced two. Well done. You name

:09:12.:09:15.

one that supports your point of view. The British Chambers of

:09:15.:09:18.

Commerce agrees with us that we should not be given employers have

:09:18.:09:22.

the power to support -- to fire people at will. They want every

:09:22.:09:27.

other part of Beecroft. The issue is not whether Beecroft is right or

:09:27.:09:32.

wrong. The issue is that you cannot call on a single group representing

:09:32.:09:36.

business that takes your point of view. Absolutely, I can. I have

:09:36.:09:40.

always -- already cited the British Chambers of Commerce. The

:09:40.:09:43.

Federation of Small Businesses has said it has grave concerns that if

:09:43.:09:47.

you start setting up a two-tiered employment system, where you have

:09:47.:09:50.

one set of laws for businesses with employees fewer than 10, and

:09:50.:09:54.

another set of laws for everybody else, it would create a whole range

:09:54.:09:57.

of uncertainty. To say that the Beecroft report commands the

:09:57.:10:01.

support of the entire business community is simply wrong. If you

:10:01.:10:06.

look at the ICAEW, a leading organisation in the business

:10:06.:10:11.

community... The Institute of Chartered Accountants, which

:10:11.:10:14.

advises businesses themselves. They have said the Beecroft report is

:10:14.:10:17.

not the way to get the economy going. It is in the name of growth

:10:17.:10:21.

that the government is backing this report. They are saying that but

:10:21.:10:25.

for the employment law regime, we would not be in a recession. That

:10:25.:10:29.

is basically Adrian Beecroft's argument. You have said yourself, I

:10:29.:10:34.

was watching your sister programme, that the big issue is demand. That

:10:34.:10:38.

is the reason that our businesses are not growing at the moment.

:10:38.:10:43.

Richard Branson and ally for you? Richard Branson has argued in the

:10:43.:10:47.

Observer interview that we should do something on National Insurance

:10:47.:10:50.

to help micro and small businesses. That is something that we have been

:10:50.:10:56.

arguing for. As I have said, I have not denied that at the 2010 general

:10:56.:10:59.

election, Labour lost support in the business community, despite the

:10:59.:11:04.

popularity of Peter Mandelson and Alistair Darling. This is what

:11:04.:11:14.

Richard Branson actually said. You're not in favour of that.

:11:14.:11:17.

relation to business rates, it is something we would have to make a

:11:18.:11:20.

decision on if and when we got back into government because we would

:11:20.:11:24.

need to see the state of the public finances. On regulation, one of the

:11:24.:11:27.

things that the government has done is that it extended the primary

:11:27.:11:30.

authority scheme, which helps reduce the regulatory burden for

:11:30.:11:35.

businesses at a local level. If you have a business that spans three

:11:35.:11:40.

local authorities, you would have had to have dealt with all three

:11:40.:11:42.

and relation to different rules and regulations enforcement. We have

:11:42.:11:49.

set up a system which the government -- which looks to cover

:11:49.:11:52.

more businesses, which means you have a lead authority that you deal

:11:52.:11:56.

with. That was to bring down regulation. I don't deny we should

:11:56.:11:59.

look to reduce regulatory burden where we can, but I don't think we

:11:59.:12:02.

should be watering down a fundamental basic rights of

:12:02.:12:08.

everybody watching this programme in the name of growth. There is no

:12:08.:12:11.

economic or emperor call data to show that would get our economy

:12:11.:12:17.

going again. Sir Richard Branson is wrong? In an interview today he

:12:18.:12:21.

will say he is broadly supportive of Beecroft. If that is what he has

:12:21.:12:24.

said, and I haven't had the privilege of listening to his

:12:24.:12:29.

comments... You haven't had his support either. I do not agree that

:12:29.:12:33.

the Beecroft report is the way to go to get growth going in our

:12:33.:12:38.

economy. Andrew Adonis has been brought back into upon a duster

:12:38.:12:44.

will be -- to help on industrial policy. He has said that the third

:12:44.:12:48.

runway at Heathrow is economic self-mutilation. In government we

:12:48.:12:52.

promoted and supported the third runway. You are against it now.

:12:52.:12:56.

are looking at the feet of aviation generally in the south-east, in the

:12:56.:13:00.

context of our overall policy review. You are against the third

:13:00.:13:03.

from a? At the moment, we are looking at what we should be doing

:13:03.:13:09.

in the south-east. Are you against the third runway? We are looking at

:13:09.:13:12.

it in the context of our overall policy review, that is the answer

:13:13.:13:16.

to the question. Everybody gets fixated on the third runway. Even

:13:16.:13:20.

if we had one at Heathrow, we are likely to reach capacity there

:13:20.:13:26.

fairly quickly. So we do need a solution in the south-east.

:13:27.:13:31.

supported by the CBI, the IoD, Unite and the GMB union. And you

:13:31.:13:36.

are against it? I have just said, we are looking at it in the context

:13:36.:13:39.

of our policy review. One of the things that we have offered, and it

:13:40.:13:44.

goes to a big point of contention with politics in general, is that

:13:44.:13:47.

we often talk about the need to move away from quarterly capitalism,

:13:47.:13:51.

to move away from making decisions in the short term and having

:13:52.:13:55.

decisions made in the long term. We as politicians are often the

:13:55.:14:00.

obstacle, because we have election titles and a change of government.

:14:00.:14:04.

One of the things we have said on aviation policy, it will involve

:14:04.:14:08.

long-term decisions for business generally, let us work with you to

:14:08.:14:12.

come up with a long-term solution to our aviation challenge going

:14:12.:14:16.

forward, so that we can provide business with a long-term policy

:14:16.:14:20.

setting they need to have the competence to invest. A lot of

:14:20.:14:24.

policy uncertainty created in aviation but also in areas like low

:14:24.:14:28.

carbon and energy throws a lot of uncertainty over a policy area

:14:28.:14:32.

which discourages the private sector from investing. That is one

:14:32.:14:35.

of the very big problems at the moment. You have also got problems

:14:35.:14:41.

on the deficit. Ed Balls tried to make out that the IMF had been

:14:41.:14:44.

supporting Labour's position but you know that is not true. Let's

:14:44.:14:54.
:14:54.:15:00.

look at what the IMF has been Let's look at what the OECD has

:15:00.:15:10.
:15:10.:15:20.

You are not going to get Christine Lagarde making strident comments

:15:20.:15:23.

about government policy given the George Osborne sponsored has the

:15:23.:15:28.

position. Let's look at what she has said. She said to have a

:15:28.:15:32.

credible fiscal policy, you need growth and we have not seen growth

:15:32.:15:38.

for a long time in this country. Last year the IMF forecast was 2.3%

:15:38.:15:44.

and now they are forecasting 0.8%. If we carry on on the current

:15:44.:15:49.

trajectory, in a recession at the moment, it is questionable that we

:15:49.:15:54.

will even reach 0.8%, so we have a government that said their policies

:15:54.:15:59.

would get growth going again but actually we are in a recession...

:15:59.:16:02.

But if Christine Lagarde is in the pockets of the Chancellor and

:16:03.:16:08.

unreliable, why did Ed Balls claimed she was supporting Labour's

:16:08.:16:13.

policy of or fiscal stimulus? Because her deputy said that

:16:13.:16:17.

cutting temporarily VAT would be one of the ways to get growth going

:16:17.:16:27.
:16:27.:16:28.

again. But she said it should be fourth in line of the new policies

:16:28.:16:33.

to be considered. The IMF have not said to do it now. Your policy says

:16:33.:16:39.

to do it now. You are not going to get Christine Lagarde unhelpful to

:16:39.:16:44.

George Osborne... So she is only saying these things, the comment

:16:44.:16:49.

that she shivered about your deficit, because she is in the

:16:49.:16:53.

Chancellor's pockets. government is going to be borrowing

:16:53.:16:57.

more than Alastair Darling would have been under his deficit

:16:57.:17:02.

reduction plan. But she shivered at the deficit reduction plan. Is she

:17:02.:17:06.

saying that because she is a propagandist for the Chancellor?

:17:06.:17:11.

I am not saying that. But you have to look at what she says in context

:17:11.:17:17.

of her relationship with the government. There are mixed views

:17:17.:17:22.

from economists. Many of them got it wrong. When the government

:17:22.:17:24.

announced the Comprehensive Spending Review, many economists

:17:24.:17:27.

talk that would be the best thing to get growth going again and now

:17:27.:17:32.

we are back in recession. You cannot look at Christine Lagarde

:17:32.:17:38.

and say she is an oracle. So why did Ed Balls claimed that she was

:17:38.:17:45.

on sight? It wasn't true! Well, she has said we need growth for a

:17:45.:17:49.

credible fiscal policy and to that extent there is the agreement, and

:17:49.:17:54.

people in the IMF have said we need to look to stimulus measures.

:17:54.:17:59.

Either what she says matters or it doesn't. Of course it matters but

:17:59.:18:05.

she is not the only person that matters. Are you in a position to

:18:05.:18:11.

name a predator company? No. Why? If you let me answer the question,

:18:11.:18:17.

it wasn't about going around and labelling companies good or bad and

:18:17.:18:23.

predators or producers. He did! he did not. We want to promote good

:18:23.:18:27.

business practice. Things which are innovative, things that value

:18:27.:18:31.

people that work in the companies, the companies that look to resolve

:18:31.:18:37.

the inevitable difficulties... said some companies are predators.

:18:37.:18:42.

Can you still not name what he meant by that? That is not what he

:18:42.:18:47.

was saying in his comments. What other kinds of business practices

:18:47.:18:52.

that will get the economy going again? What companies that are

:18:52.:19:00.

successful and producing...? right. We have a grubbing middle-

:19:00.:19:07.

class. Before we run out of time. A one to ask you about Baroness Farsi.

:19:07.:19:12.

Will Labour make a big deal about this? -- I want to ask you about

:19:12.:19:17.

Baroness Warsi. This is not something that any politician from

:19:17.:19:21.

any party can crow about. When you see these types of stories, it is

:19:21.:19:29.

bad for politics, generally. I am not happy to see this and I am

:19:29.:19:34.

surprised. In order to rebuild trust, there has to be a proper

:19:35.:19:38.

independent investigation because so long as the stories endure, we

:19:38.:19:42.

are going to struggle to rebuild the trust and confidence that we

:19:42.:19:46.

need there to be between Westminster and the people. That is

:19:46.:19:51.

incredibly important. Chuka Umunna, thank you for being with us on a

:19:51.:19:57.

Sunday morning when we should all be in the park! Thank you. Now,

:19:57.:19:59.

last night's Eurovision Song Contest might have proved, yet

:19:59.:20:02.

again, that the rest of Europe isn't exactly crazy about us, but

:20:02.:20:06.

how do we feel about them? It has been almost 40 years since the

:20:06.:20:09.

British people were asked to vote on the question, but there are

:20:09.:20:11.

signs that chance might come again, with Tory backbenchers calling for

:20:12.:20:14.

a referendum on our future membership of the European Union

:20:14.:20:18.

and even Labour said to be considering one. Giles Dilnot has

:20:18.:20:24.

been beside the seaside to find out more.

:20:24.:20:27.

We British, islanders, have always fluctuated, like the waves, over

:20:27.:20:31.

our relationship with those across the Channel. Although wanting us to

:20:31.:20:33.

immerse ourselves deeper into Europe, or get out completely, has

:20:34.:20:39.

been considered the extremes. But now with all this euro turbulence,

:20:39.:20:43.

if it is hard to work out if more people want out, it is easier to

:20:43.:20:51.

prove more would like a say. And while everyone is napping, could be

:20:51.:20:56.

tide had turned enough that now is the moment that one political party

:20:56.:21:00.

seizes the initiative and says "we are the one that will offer the

:21:00.:21:09.

British people a vote on Enid or out of Europe"? -- in or out.

:21:09.:21:11.

A pebble's throw from Southend, in Thurrock, 46,000 people responded

:21:11.:21:14.

to a people's pledge vote in a turn-out higher than local

:21:14.:21:22.

elections. 90% wanted a referendum. That experience proves to me that

:21:22.:21:25.

the first party leader in this country with the coverage and

:21:25.:21:29.

enough respect of the British people to come out now for a

:21:29.:21:34.

referendum will enjoy it electoral rewards now. But party leaders

:21:34.:21:40.

coming after run the risk of looking opportunist and cynical.

:21:41.:21:43.

Inside the sealed bubble of Westminster, politicians may not

:21:43.:21:47.

have heard such message or they're happy tuning it out. The problem

:21:47.:21:50.

with a polarised referendum is that the vast majority of people are

:21:50.:21:54.

somewhere in the middle and do not get given the option they want.

:21:54.:21:58.

They are forced to choose between these two extremes, cutting off

:21:58.:22:04.

from Europe or going for a rush into more integration. That is not

:22:04.:22:08.

what the majority of people want and so it is not the right question.

:22:08.:22:12.

But Labour may be able to bask in considerable Tory discomfort if

:22:12.:22:19.

they are promised such a polls. There would be advantage for Labour

:22:19.:22:22.

in the splitting the Conservative Party but surely the main point is

:22:22.:22:26.

what is in the best interests of the country, and if we are going to

:22:26.:22:31.

have a vote on Europe at some stage, which I think we probably will, it

:22:32.:22:36.

has got to be a considered debate and it has got to be on the

:22:36.:22:43.

question of where Europe is at the time, and the end of all of this

:22:43.:22:48.

euro turbulence. Over time, they have endlessly

:22:48.:22:55.

talked about. It is 37 years since we were asked what we thought, fast

:22:55.:22:58.

forward to today and suddenly we the public may have to think about

:22:58.:23:01.

our answer. And deputy leader of UKIP Paul

:23:01.:23:04.

Nuttall and former Europe Minister Denis MacShane join us to debate

:23:04.:23:12.

the question. Europe. In or out? Paul Nuttall, why do you want to

:23:12.:23:19.

lead the EU? It is a bureaucratic mess, it is expensive. -- leave the

:23:19.:23:25.

EU. We cannot control our borders. I want Britain to be an independent

:23:25.:23:32.

nation that looks to the Globe, not just to Europe. It is our biggest

:23:32.:23:39.

trading partner. I am very keen on a referendum that we stay out of

:23:39.:23:44.

the Eurovision Song Contest! I would vote to withdraw, I think!

:23:44.:23:50.

What is the answer to his point? are lots of international

:23:50.:23:54.

organisations and if we have a referendum, I think we will vote to

:23:54.:23:57.

stay in but it will not solve anything because we are bitterly

:23:57.:24:01.

divided in Europe, like in the 19th century we were divided on free

:24:01.:24:05.

trade and the Irish question, and it is a fault-line on British

:24:05.:24:10.

politics, and if I thought a referendum would solve anything...

:24:10.:24:15.

What is the substance? He says we will be better off out of Europe.

:24:15.:24:19.

He says we will concentrate on trading with emerging markets.

:24:19.:24:25.

terrific idea but Belgian exports more than we do to India. The

:24:25.:24:30.

eurozone as a whole has a balance of trade surplus. They look at us

:24:30.:24:36.

and see a country without any growth, in recession, huge balance

:24:36.:24:40.

of trade and debt problems, and they would like Britain to be more

:24:40.:24:44.

like some of the eurozone countries who are performing their wealth.

:24:44.:24:50.

Wouldn't we end up in splendid isolation if we were to leave?

:24:50.:24:54.

We are the 7th largest economy in the world. I want us to look

:24:54.:25:01.

towards Australia, Canada, India, the big emerging nations with fast

:25:01.:25:05.

growing economies. Not within the European Union, which is a

:25:05.:25:10.

bureaucratic mess, overseeing a currency that is falling apart.

:25:10.:25:18.

Look, let's be very clear. We do 1.4% of our trade with India. We

:25:18.:25:24.

export more to Ireland! He says we should do more! I am all for that.

:25:24.:25:29.

William Hague has and the last two years banging the drum for UK trade

:25:29.:25:34.

anywhere except in Europe and actually our trade with the outside

:25:34.:25:38.

world is coming down. I am not against it. Joe Johnson, a

:25:38.:25:43.

Conservative MP, wrote a good pamphlet a few days ago and he said,

:25:43.:25:48.

Britain is far behind the rest of Europe in terms of export and trade

:25:48.:25:52.

promotion and the idea that quitting Europe will open a sop to

:25:52.:25:58.

marvellous trade opportunities is not realistic -- will open us up.

:25:58.:26:02.

Her we have connections with these countries. We have economic,

:26:02.:26:06.

business and linguistic connections and we are missing a fantastic

:26:06.:26:11.

opportunity by tying ourselves to the slowest growing economic block

:26:11.:26:17.

on the planet. Wouldn't we end up being like Norway? You are not part

:26:17.:26:20.

of the decision-making process but you have to implement most of what

:26:20.:26:26.

the EU says. Not necessarily. We want to be friends with our

:26:26.:26:30.

European partners and a free trade deal will be on the table. 3

:26:30.:26:34.

million jobs in this country are dependent on our membership of the

:26:35.:26:41.

EU. But 12 million jobs on the Continent are dependent on jobs in

:26:41.:26:48.

the UK! That is as silly argument. Take Norway. Nor which implements

:26:48.:26:57.

more EU directives than we do! Take Switzerland. Switzerland... I love

:26:57.:27:00.

it when Paul Nuttall and Nigel Farage talk about trading with

:27:00.:27:03.

India and Pakistan and the rest of it but they are all for keeping

:27:03.:27:07.

these people out of the UK and you cannot be so unpleasant about

:27:07.:27:11.

foreigners in Britain and then say, but we would love to increase trade

:27:11.:27:15.

with these other countries. You cannot be open to business and

:27:15.:27:21.

closed to foreigners, which is your policy. We cannot have open-door

:27:21.:27:25.

immigration. In a time of recession... Let's stick to the

:27:25.:27:30.

European Union. Isn't it the factor that he might get his way? If the

:27:30.:27:36.

eurozone becomes a fiscal union, it will become much more tightly

:27:36.:27:40.

integrated. We will not be part of that and we will effectively be

:27:40.:27:45.

more outside. We might be more marginalised, I do accept that and

:27:45.:27:51.

I do worried. If we have and in or out referendum, fine. What would we

:27:51.:27:58.

lose? We would lose that position we had for a good number of years,

:27:58.:28:03.

been in there fighting for as hard as we can to maintain some open and

:28:03.:28:10.

liberal policies. For example, when our beef was safe after mad cow

:28:10.:28:15.

disease, only the EU would excepted. Canada and Australia would not.

:28:15.:28:23.

Hong Kong, our colony, said you must be joking, British beef.

:28:23.:28:28.

are staying in Europe for mad cow disease? Do not be flippant about

:28:28.:28:31.

our Cultural Industry. It is important for our farmers that we

:28:31.:28:35.

can export. I think British agricultural exports would come to

:28:35.:28:39.

a halt, as a small example. Should we put that to the people rather

:28:39.:28:47.

than commit in or out? There may be different terms. We tried to

:28:47.:28:53.

renegotiate for many years. I think this is not able to be reformed.

:28:53.:28:58.

The last time we had a referendum on this was in 1975 and you voted

:28:58.:29:03.

on trade. You both may have voted but I was not even born. What gives

:29:03.:29:08.

the generation above the right to have a say on this issue but not my

:29:08.:29:13.

generation? Yes or no, who would win? I think faced with isolating

:29:13.:29:19.

ourselves completely, even some of the right wing press would say this

:29:20.:29:27.

is insanity. I asked for yes or no as. OK! I think the British people

:29:27.:29:30.

would let us come out, I think the British people are firmly of that

:29:30.:29:33.

belief at the moment. Thank you both.

:29:33.:29:37.

It's approaching 11.30am. You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:29:37.:29:40.

Coming up in 20 minutes I'll be looking at the week ahead with our

:29:40.:29:50.
:29:50.:29:52.

political panel. Until then, the Hello and welcome from us. As the

:29:52.:29:56.

government says it is satisfied with how it responded to issues

:29:56.:30:00.

raised by the 7/7 terror attack inquest, some survivors tell us why

:30:00.:30:05.

not enough has been done. Joining us for the next 20 minutes,

:30:05.:30:08.

Labour MP and former Home Office Minister Meg Hillier, and Simon

:30:08.:30:11.

Hughes, deputy leader of the Democrats.

:30:11.:30:14.

First of, we are looking at migration and the changing face of

:30:14.:30:19.

London. Latest figures show that net inward immigration to the UK of

:30:19.:30:23.

250,000 a year. The capital has been the main point of entry for

:30:23.:30:26.

new arrivals and latest figures show that the number of babies born

:30:26.:30:31.

in London to mothers from overseas is that a record high. What are the

:30:31.:30:36.

implications of that? Latest government figures show that

:30:36.:30:40.

over half the babies born in London in 2010 have mothers from outside

:30:40.:30:44.

the UK. Double the rate seen across the rest of England and Wales. In

:30:44.:30:47.

Newham, over three quarters of babies were born to mothers from

:30:47.:30:53.

overseas, the highest rate in the country. Brent, Westminster and

:30:53.:30:57.

Kensington and Chelsea all follow closely behind. Of all the brothers

:30:57.:31:01.

-- babies born to foreign mothers, the most came from Poland, a change

:31:01.:31:05.

from Pakistan which had the most foreign mothers giving birth in the

:31:05.:31:10.

UK between 2000, and 2009. A brief snapshot there. Joining us

:31:10.:31:18.

from Leeds, a representative from the think tank, migration UK. What

:31:18.:31:24.

is your reaction to figures showing 50% of new berths are from -- to

:31:24.:31:30.

mothers from other countries. know that the vast majority of

:31:30.:31:33.

mothers had to London. I think the previous government loosened

:31:33.:31:37.

controls to such an extent that we have seen a high at -- sharp

:31:37.:31:42.

increase in net migration, from 50,000 in the mid-90s to what we

:31:42.:31:47.

see today, a staggering 252,000. That is an extraordinary figure

:31:47.:31:51.

which is illustrating the pace of change that we are having to cope

:31:51.:31:58.

with in London. Does it matter? celebrate cultural diversity, we

:31:58.:32:01.

are a welcoming community, a welcoming country. But the change

:32:01.:32:05.

is taking place at such a pace that it is adding pressure and a burden

:32:05.:32:09.

on services such as housing, schools and the NHS. More

:32:09.:32:13.

importantly, I think integration. Integration is key to the community

:32:13.:32:17.

spirit and to success within our whole community. It is much more

:32:17.:32:22.

difficult with this large-scale immigration taking place. Former

:32:22.:32:27.

Home Secretary Alan Johnson said this week, that under Labour or the

:32:27.:32:32.

last year of Labour, they had got the figure down to 160,000. It is

:32:32.:32:36.

250,000 now and going up, who is right and wrong here? What is the

:32:36.:32:41.

present government doing? This government is doing, has put in

:32:41.:32:46.

some tighter controls but it must fulfil its promise to take net

:32:46.:32:50.

migration down from the hundreds of thousands, to the tens of thousands.

:32:50.:32:55.

We have to be much tighter and have more effective measures. We need to

:32:55.:32:58.

ensure that individuals are not abusing legitimate entry routes

:32:58.:33:02.

into this country. We should continue to welcome professionals

:33:02.:33:05.

and genuine students who wish to study and then leave the country.

:33:05.:33:11.

But whom would also look at illegal immigration and ensure that any

:33:11.:33:14.

illegal immigrant is sent back to their country. You won't need

:33:14.:33:18.

reminding that it was under Labour that we lost control. I would

:33:18.:33:21.

dispute that but if we look at the numbers, and we have heard some

:33:21.:33:25.

figures talked about, there is a culture of population across the

:33:25.:33:32.

what, a whole changing wake -- across the world, a-changing way

:33:32.:33:39.

that people move around. The fact it is Polish women in the majority

:33:39.:33:43.

reflects a different pattern of migration. A lot of Brits go abroad,

:33:43.:33:47.

to Europe, and live and work and study there. We're not living in

:33:47.:33:50.

the world of 20 years ago, we are living in a world where we have a

:33:50.:33:54.

lot more movement. I think this reflects that, partly. Do you have

:33:54.:34:00.

no concerns with that figure, at 56% are born to people that just a

:34:00.:34:05.

generation ago were mothers who lived elsewhere? It is partly

:34:05.:34:09.

looking at London and it is a point that has been made, a lot of people

:34:09.:34:16.

moved to London. In my borough in Hackney, over 50% of births were to

:34:16.:34:19.

foreign mothers. We are very young Borough, the average age is 32,

:34:20.:34:23.

about a quarter of residents are under the age of 60. These people

:34:23.:34:26.

will be paying the pensions of the rest of Britain in the future, and

:34:26.:34:32.

are vital to the life blood of our economy. Simon Hughes, in a similar

:34:32.:34:36.

inner-city constituency, are their issues, are there cultural issues,

:34:36.:34:39.

particularly the needs of populations here, which impact on

:34:39.:34:45.

public service? Of course there are. If the population goes up greatly,

:34:45.:34:48.

and the population of London has been going up significantly for

:34:48.:34:53.

years, and will go on going up, then of course, the capital city

:34:53.:34:57.

takes the most pressure and we have to deal with that. The pressure

:34:57.:35:00.

points for made have always been providing enough affordable housing.

:35:00.:35:05.

We are desperately short. It is not a single party blame issue, it is a

:35:05.:35:08.

legacy of governments over the years, we don't have enough

:35:08.:35:12.

affordable housing. There is not as much pressure in some areas. The

:35:12.:35:16.

NHS has coped quite well. In some areas there are pressures on

:35:16.:35:22.

privates -- primary schools. We can be tough on immigration, I have

:35:22.:35:25.

always taken the view that we should not be part of an agreement

:35:25.:35:32.

and we should have our own controls. We should be tough in relation to

:35:32.:35:35.

immigration. I was critical of one decision of the last government,

:35:35.:35:40.

which David Blunkett to, which did not faze him the time that the

:35:40.:35:45.

Eastern European countries are allowed people in. I said there

:35:45.:35:50.

could be very large numbers of people coming, the predictions were

:35:50.:35:55.

miles out, I think we had 10 times as many. The benefit is that we are

:35:55.:35:59.

a culturally diverse city. It has huge benefits in terms of links

:35:59.:36:02.

with the world. Many of the people from Commonwealth countries, where

:36:02.:36:07.

we went and settled there... With probably any won the Olympics

:36:07.:36:12.

because we are the sort of mixed city that we are. Two points. The

:36:12.:36:17.

largest number are Polish mothers, you can't restrict that now with

:36:17.:36:21.

the free movement in Europe. But you can't put this back in the box,

:36:21.:36:26.

it is something that has happened. It is built into London's

:36:26.:36:30.

infrastructure. We can't restrict the Polish, that's fine. But we can

:36:30.:36:36.

have tighter measures. This figure of 250,000 is too high and we are

:36:36.:36:39.

looking to the coalition government to deliver and fulfil its price of

:36:39.:36:44.

reducing this to the tens of thousands. Thank you for joining us.

:36:44.:36:49.

After the inquest last year into the July 7th a terrorist attack of

:36:49.:36:52.

2005, the coroner made a number of recommendations for future

:36:52.:36:56.

improvements. The government published a progress report this

:36:56.:36:59.

month saying it was satisfied with what had been done. Others

:36:59.:37:04.

including some survivors say they are not so pleased.

:37:04.:37:08.

The air ambulance was used to ferry teams of specialist trauma doctors

:37:08.:37:12.

above the congested streets, to the bomb sites. We provided multiple

:37:13.:37:18.

teams, to multiple bomb sites across London. We treated, or

:37:18.:37:24.

helped treat over 700 patients that day. We had 16 teams, we flew over

:37:24.:37:29.

26 missions. As acknowledged in the 7/7 inquest, we played a vital role

:37:29.:37:34.

in saving lives. Research has shown that the system work better because

:37:34.:37:39.

we played that role. It may look and sound just like another

:37:39.:37:44.

emergency service. But London's air ambulance is actually a charity. In

:37:44.:37:48.

the coroner's report into 7th July attacks, she wrote about her

:37:48.:37:51.

concern that London should have to rely on a service dependent on the

:37:51.:37:55.

public's charity and staff giving up their time for free,

:37:55.:37:58.

particularly as a global city, a major terrorist target and a host

:37:58.:38:02.

of the Olympic Games. The recommendation was that its funding

:38:02.:38:07.

and capacity should be reviewed. have not had dialogue with the

:38:07.:38:10.

Department of Health about this review into our capacity and

:38:10.:38:14.

funding. We believe it needs to happen urgently and we wait

:38:14.:38:18.

optimistic before it to happen. The recommendation for a review on

:38:18.:38:21.

capacity and funding was addressed to more than just the government,

:38:21.:38:24.

it was addressed to the Mayor of London as well and we will address

:38:24.:38:28.

it to the people of London. So far we have had no definite response

:38:28.:38:31.

from the Mayor of London as to helping us with either support or

:38:31.:38:35.

funding. The Department of Health told Sunday Politics it was still

:38:35.:38:39.

deciding what the terms of the review might be. Not that you would

:38:39.:38:42.

know from reading the government's official review into the progress

:38:42.:38:46.

made on the coroner's report. It says that discussions continued

:38:46.:38:49.

between government and London's air ambulance about funding and

:38:49.:38:52.

capacity. Despite the fact that London's air ambulance tell us that

:38:52.:38:56.

no such discussions have taken place recently. They tell us that

:38:56.:38:59.

people who drew up this week's progress report did not even make

:38:59.:39:05.

contact with them to check. Another recommendation that has not been

:39:05.:39:09.

followed up to everyone satisfaction was number 7. For

:39:09.:39:13.

Transport for London to review keeping first aid kits on

:39:13.:39:16.

underground trains. TfL say they have reviewed it but decided it was

:39:16.:39:21.

impractical. Putting them on trains is a practical issue. They are very

:39:21.:39:26.

dusty and dirty places. We looked to see where we could put them.

:39:26.:39:30.

They may be lost at any time will but if we put them under seats,

:39:30.:39:33.

customers tend to steal them. We can get first aid equipment to

:39:33.:39:38.

people very quickly from the right places, which is on stations.

:39:38.:39:42.

Instead of first aid kits at stations that we had on 7/7, we

:39:42.:39:46.

have a new improved version. These are not good enough, at least

:39:46.:39:49.

according to this woman who was on the train attacked near Edgware

:39:49.:39:54.

Road. When a bomb goes off in the middle of a tunnel, I don't

:39:54.:39:57.

understand what used the first aid kit on the station platform Allen &

:39:57.:40:04.

Overy is going to be. -- on the state -- on the State for -- on the

:40:04.:40:14.

state -- on the station platform is going to be. How quickly can you

:40:14.:40:19.

get equipment is somebody trapped in a tunnel? I have been told I was

:40:19.:40:25.

trapped for about an hour. Jackie now feel disappointed. What has to

:40:25.:40:29.

happen to make them do what is right for the travelling public?

:40:29.:40:34.

What does it take to make people, in a position to make these

:40:34.:40:40.

decisions, stop being smug and get off their backsides and do

:40:40.:40:46.

something? I am joined by former deputy Mayor

:40:46.:40:49.

Richard Barnes, who was in charge of co-ordinating London's response

:40:49.:40:55.

to incidents like 7/7, and a solicitor robe and in some of the

:40:55.:40:59.

7/7 survivors and families of the victims. -- representing some of

:40:59.:41:02.

the 7/7 survivors. How far have your recommendations been

:41:02.:41:06.

implemented? One of the biggest problems is that what has been

:41:06.:41:09.

implemented is not being properly communicated. We are told that

:41:09.:41:13.

things have changed, but we are not told what they are. Sometimes for

:41:13.:41:18.

very sound reasons. Recently on the emergency service front, there was

:41:19.:41:22.

a big operation called for defensive, where the emergency

:41:22.:41:26.

services were being tested. And the results of that operation are not

:41:26.:41:30.

being published at all. It says in the recent updates that we have

:41:30.:41:34.

circulated the results to all our partners, but not to the travelling

:41:34.:41:38.

public, who want to know whether a response is going to be passed

:41:38.:41:42.

enough for what can you deduce from that? You can't deduce their

:41:42.:41:47.

problems. If the government are not saying that this government wracked

:41:47.:41:52.

as this operation is working well, I deduce that it is not. Did you

:41:52.:41:56.

have access to that information? But the show that London has not

:41:56.:42:00.

responded well? I would not say that London has responded badly at

:42:00.:42:10.
:42:10.:42:11.

all. When I chaired my report and look at what position we were in on

:42:11.:42:16.

7th July 2005, and where are we now, which of our 54 recommendations

:42:16.:42:23.

have been recommended? One was that Transport for London should

:42:23.:42:30.

consider having first aid kits in cabs. We said they should consider

:42:30.:42:35.

it and look at it properly. You are happy they decided not to go ahead?

:42:35.:42:42.

We now have 171st a depots across London. I have travelled in cabs

:42:42.:42:47.

and there is very little space to put it there -- 170 first-stage

:42:47.:42:51.

depots. I don't want to rely on a driver who has been traumatised

:42:51.:42:59.

himself. You heard a survivor saying that they do not want it

:42:59.:43:03.

along the platform, they wanted on the train with quick access.

:43:03.:43:07.

understand what they want. Hopefully would happen on 7th July

:43:07.:43:14.

is a one-off if you like, and there are other incidents were perhaps

:43:14.:43:20.

supply of first aid equipment from the stations is appropriate. It is

:43:20.:43:26.

nonsense to suggest that when Richard Barnes proposes, as chair

:43:26.:43:31.

of the review committee, that there should be first aid kits on trains,

:43:31.:43:35.

and then five years later, the coroner supports that

:43:35.:43:39.

recommendation, invites them to reconsider it, to review it. It is

:43:39.:43:43.

extraordinary that it is beyond the wit and the brains in this country

:43:43.:43:47.

to install sufficient first aid equipment on an Underground train.

:43:47.:43:52.

I want to ask the London air ambulance, something that the Mayor

:43:52.:43:55.

and you decided, it is not in our remit, we have not got

:43:55.:44:00.

responsibility, why not? The Mayor can only act on what he has a

:44:00.:44:05.

statutory responsibilities for. There are those who propose that

:44:05.:44:10.

the ambulance service should be part... You take the easy jobs and

:44:10.:44:14.

not the typical ones that cost money for it but I love that you

:44:14.:44:24.
:44:24.:44:25.

are jumping to different The day after, on the eighth of

:44:25.:44:30.

July, it was due to be in for service. It was a happy coincidence

:44:30.:44:34.

that all the doctors were together for a meeting on 7th July, they

:44:34.:44:39.

were then ferried by the ambulance service out to points where there

:44:39.:44:44.

were the four bombs across London. You can't have a first responder

:44:44.:44:49.

which you can't rely on, seven days a week, 24 hours a day. There are

:44:49.:44:53.

real risk that -- political decisions to be made and looked at.

:44:53.:44:58.

It is an asset to the ambulance service, it is not necessarily a

:44:58.:45:02.

first response of the highest order. What do you think? I have been to

:45:02.:45:05.

the Royal London to see it and the chances of survival if you're

:45:05.:45:09.

picked up by the air ambulance and dealt with by the trauma unit is

:45:09.:45:13.

exponentially higher. We are facing a world where we have more of these

:45:13.:45:17.

threats. Of course we hope it is an aberration but we do not know that.

:45:17.:45:23.

We need to make sure it is not the first point of call at 247 because

:45:23.:45:27.

that is challenging, but it is there as much as can be. I think

:45:27.:45:32.

the film was slightly wrong, I think the doctors are paid for by

:45:32.:45:37.

the charity. As trains are redesigned, there should be space

:45:37.:45:40.

to put it behind glass that you can break in an emergency, I would say

:45:40.:45:43.

the issue around theft and keep it clean. There may be practical

:45:44.:45:47.

challenges here and now but I think it is premature to rule it out

:45:47.:45:57.
:45:57.:45:59.

completely. Simon Hughes, D feel we I am grateful for this report. It

:45:59.:46:04.

took the terrible Marchioness tragedy to forced London to get its

:46:04.:46:09.

act together. Lifeboat service, much more safety on the river, all

:46:09.:46:15.

that sort of stuff. For me, there is a lot of work still to be done.

:46:15.:46:21.

I have been and seen what the air ambulance do, they do a fantastic

:46:21.:46:27.

job. It would be good if they can be linked with the London Ambulance

:46:27.:46:30.

Service formally, I would support that, and I will willingly pick up

:46:30.:46:34.

these issues, including that of having first aid kits underground,

:46:34.:46:40.

because I think we need to learn the lessons. This demonstrates that

:46:40.:46:45.

there are over 200 rule 43 reports from coroners in the last six

:46:45.:46:49.

months, we had the King's Cross fire report ignored, the

:46:49.:46:53.

recommendations from the Marchioness ignored but the blog

:46:53.:47:03.
:47:03.:47:05.

they were not ignored. -- ignored... They were not ignored. We need to

:47:05.:47:08.

ensure that coroner's recommendations are put in place

:47:09.:47:12.

and we need some government department to oversee it and say,

:47:12.:47:19.

we agreed with it. But about the Marchioness, you are wrong, a lot

:47:19.:47:27.

was gonna buy the last Government. There is no statutory... A lot was

:47:28.:47:32.

implemented after the last government. What else has been

:47:32.:47:40.

happening in the City this week? A round up, in 60 seconds.

:47:40.:47:44.

A special tube train to mark the diamond jubilee celebrations broke

:47:44.:47:48.

down in the tunnel. Passengers were led down the track after the train

:47:49.:47:54.

stopped on the Jubilee Line near St John's Wood. Transport for London

:47:54.:47:58.

has apologised and said it would compensate those evacuated. Us

:47:58.:48:03.

senior Ukrainian Olympic official has been suspended after a BBC

:48:03.:48:08.

investigation showed he was willing to sell Olympics tickets for cash.

:48:08.:48:13.

He told a reporter that he would have up to 100 tickets to sell.

:48:13.:48:19.

Stella Creasey raised the issue of pay-day loans in PMQs. 65% of the

:48:19.:48:24.

public want to see caps on the cost of credit, when were his ministers

:48:24.:48:30.

finally do something about ending it legal loan sharks in the UK?

:48:30.:48:34.

teaches in a north London school resisting academy status went on

:48:34.:48:39.

strike. The National Union of Teachers said 20 members have taken

:48:39.:48:43.

action against the proposals that the school would become a sponsored

:48:43.:48:49.

Academy of. Simon Hughes. Passengers

:48:49.:48:52.

underground compensated. Signal failures. Will we be able to cope

:48:52.:48:58.

with the Olympics? I represent part of the Jubilee Line and many other

:48:58.:49:03.

stations. I was concerned about the breakdown. They have increased the

:49:03.:49:08.

number of trains and frequency recently so they come roughly once

:49:08.:49:13.

a minute. That is great. But I am glad that these issues came up now

:49:13.:49:19.

because I hope there will be time to sort them before the Olympics.

:49:19.:49:22.

The survey's overall has improved but the problem is, when it is not

:49:22.:49:28.

working, it is such a bad failure - - the service be fooled. I was

:49:28.:49:33.

stuck underground lift a day for 10 seconds and it is not very pleasant.

:49:33.:49:37.

I have a lot of time for the Commissioner for London Transport

:49:37.:49:43.

and I think if anyone can crack it, he can. Thank you, both. Back to

:49:43.:49:51.

Thought last week at the Leveson was a good one? Well, get the

:49:51.:49:58.

popcorn in because you ain't seen nothing yet. Tomorrow Tony Blair

:49:58.:50:01.

will be in the hot seat, and after that come a host of cabinet

:50:01.:50:04.

ministers including Vince Cable and, on Thursday, the man at the centre

:50:04.:50:09.

of the storm Jeremy Hunt. All manna from heaven for our panel looking

:50:10.:50:19.

forward to The Week Ahead. Let's begin with Syria. Back in the

:50:19.:50:24.

headlines after this atrocity. This one seems to be one of the worst.

:50:24.:50:28.

There is the general cry, even from papers that opposed Afghanistan and

:50:28.:50:33.

Iraq, that something must be done. But what? And that includes the

:50:33.:50:40.

Independent, were very sceptical about the Iraq war. They opposed it.

:50:40.:50:49.

President Assad is, unlike a lot of dictators who were deposed in the

:50:49.:50:54.

Arab Spring, a darkly effective autocrat. Getting rid of him might

:50:55.:51:00.

require more than airstrikes. The group he has on his country, with

:51:01.:51:05.

paid informers and spies and the broader Syrian intelligence date,

:51:05.:51:11.

is fearsome. Unless we are prepared to have a no-fly zone, which we

:51:11.:51:17.

could do, NATO wanted to, and on the rebels, there is not much we

:51:17.:51:23.

can do. We watch kids having their throats slit. It is absolutely

:51:23.:51:27.

devastating but you are completely right. What can we do and what

:51:27.:51:32.

lessons did we learn from Iraq? Firstly that intervention is

:51:32.:51:37.

incredibly expensive and at the moment, the MoD is facing massive

:51:37.:51:41.

cuts and said intervention would be difficult. If we do not have

:51:41.:51:46.

multilateral intervention, you are causing real problems as well.

:51:46.:51:50.

Russia and America and China on know where. And if you intervene

:51:50.:51:55.

without a long-term development plan, you caused massive suffering

:51:55.:52:01.

like we saw in Iraq. With Iraq, there was a plausible strategic

:52:01.:52:05.

reason to get involved, which was the possibility of weapons of mass

:52:05.:52:14.

destruction. That was plausible. don't pretend to to be an expert --

:52:14.:52:19.

to be an expert, but British people look at this and think, let's start

:52:19.:52:23.

listing what we can do rather than what we cannot do. We are keen to

:52:23.:52:28.

say, this will be the perils of this strategy... I do not pretend

:52:28.:52:37.

to have the answers. I am not employed to do that, thankfully.

:52:37.:52:43.

Also the inspector of UN observers, what exactly do they do? It is a

:52:43.:52:47.

terrible story. Our options seem pretty limited.

:52:47.:52:54.

Baroness Warsi. Is she toast? think Chuka Umunna was very good

:52:54.:52:58.

about this in the programme. He was saying a lot of politicians are

:52:59.:53:02.

humble not to just condemn this quickly after what happened with

:53:02.:53:07.

the MPs' expenses scandal. This is an issue for all parties. It

:53:07.:53:12.

happens in 2007, which is a long time ago. I don't think she is

:53:12.:53:18.

toast. I think Cameron values her as a woman and a someone in a party

:53:18.:53:23.

that is not particularly diverse. We will have to see where it goes.

:53:23.:53:27.

But she is not that popular with the Tories. What makes her likely

:53:27.:53:30.

to be toast is not just the substance of the allegations but

:53:30.:53:35.

the fact that she has no friends, particularly the Tory right over

:53:35.:53:39.

the last few years. They have regarded her as an ineffective and

:53:39.:53:43.

lazy defender of the party. There was it true that they would be

:53:44.:53:49.

getting rid of her anyway. Baroness Warsi's name is the one that always

:53:49.:53:54.

cropping up as the one that will be moved in the next reshuffle.

:53:54.:53:58.

said she paid the landlord. The landlord got some money. And that

:53:58.:54:03.

would justify her claiming her expenses. But the landlord said he

:54:03.:54:08.

did not get the money. That could be devastating. She actually said,

:54:08.:54:13.

as I understand it, that she paid the friends, the intermediary, and

:54:13.:54:18.

the landlord said he did not get any money out of either of them.

:54:18.:54:23.

The interesting point is that Labour will not be coasting for

:54:23.:54:27.

Baroness while seed to go because they know they have their own

:54:27.:54:31.

expenses issues -- Baroness Warsi. But they may be used for people in

:54:32.:54:36.

the Conservative Party as an excuse to get rid of her. The job of party

:54:36.:54:40.

chairman used to be a profound role and Chris Patten did it in the

:54:40.:54:45.

early 90s. Norman Tebbit did it. Under Cameron and George Osborne it

:54:45.:54:51.

has been sidelined. They have put people there for honorific purposes.

:54:51.:54:55.

Do they use this opportunity now to put in a heavy hitter who

:54:55.:54:59.

effectively dominates their campaign for the next election and

:54:59.:55:02.

communicate the message to the public in a way that Cameron and

:55:02.:55:08.

was born may not be able to do? Tomorrow at Leveson Inquiry we will

:55:08.:55:12.

be reminded that there was a time when it was hard to get a cigarette

:55:12.:55:18.

paper between Mr Murdoch's organisation and Tony Blair's Lady

:55:18.:55:22.

government -- Labour government. do not think Tony Blair will tell

:55:22.:55:27.

us anything really exciting this week. I think Jeremy Hunt and Vince

:55:27.:55:33.

Cable will be the really interesting thing. Will Vince Cable

:55:33.:55:38.

implicitly do Jeremy Hunt damage? I suspect he will say, I did not

:55:38.:55:44.

tweets anybody at BSkyB and the Murdoch organisation, I have no

:55:44.:55:49.

text relationships... Vince Cable is in no mood to take any prisoners

:55:49.:55:53.

and it all comes down to the questions he is asked. He is not

:55:53.:55:57.

vindictive but if he is asked the right questions, he will not be

:55:57.:56:03.

covering up for anybody. government's of political hope with

:56:03.:56:07.

regard to the Leveson Inquiry is to spread the mark. We are all in this

:56:07.:56:12.

together. Absolutely. Defending themselves gets them know where

:56:12.:56:15.

because I do not think the public are paying attention to each item

:56:15.:56:19.

of the Leveson Inquiry. The job they must do is to prove Labour was

:56:19.:56:26.

as involved as them, with the Murdoch empire, said Tony Blair's

:56:26.:56:32.

appearance may help them to do that. -- so Tony Blair's appearance.

:56:32.:56:36.

suspect they will be laid out how close their relationship was. How

:56:36.:56:42.

often they met. How deep and widespread the contact between both

:56:42.:56:51.

on to Rajs was. Absolutely. -- both Murdoch and Blair teams were.

:56:51.:56:55.

speak about the fall-out of the individuals but what

:56:55.:56:58.

recommendations will Lord Leveson come up with to make sure this

:56:58.:57:03.

never happens again? Is this make or break for Jeremy Hunt?

:57:03.:57:10.

Absolutely. So absolutely, Thursday it is worth getting the popcorn?

:57:10.:57:13.

had the dubious pleasure of going through a lot of the documents that

:57:13.:57:17.

were released on Friday night. I know how to have fun on a Friday

:57:17.:57:22.

night. The one thing they did strike me was just how keen Jeremy

:57:22.:57:26.

Hunt was on this deal and how keen he was to intervene, even when it

:57:26.:57:30.

was Vince Cable's responsibility. He was given legal advice to keep

:57:30.:57:35.

away and he still wrote that memo. He found a way of avoiding the

:57:35.:57:38.

summit to the Competition Commission which was the root

:57:38.:57:43.

Rupert Murdoch did not want to go. The problem is that Jeremy Hunt did

:57:43.:57:46.

seem to indicate that he made no intervention and the memo

:57:46.:57:51.

contradicts that, it seems to. The one thing in his favour, as soon as

:57:51.:57:56.

people say it looks bad and shows bad judgment, almost by definition

:57:56.:58:00.

they are admitting it is hard to prove a concrete offence. As dodgy

:58:00.:58:05.

as the text messages look, they do not constitute a veteran. But in

:58:05.:58:09.

general, his performance on Thursday makes or breaks his career.

:58:09.:58:13.

I think so. Jubilee fever is mounting so no

:58:13.:58:18.

show next weekend, I'll be holding a street party. In New York. But

:58:18.:58:22.

we'll be back here on the Sunday after that at the usual time of

:58:22.:58:24.

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