03/11/2013 Sunday Politics London

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as

Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

should be covered up. We will ask the Muslim Council of Britain what

they are doing to stop extremism in our midst. In London why one local

authority is investigating -- investing thousands of pounds in a

GPS tracking system to keep tabs on its staff.

With me as always, the best and the brightest political panel, Helen

Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who will be tweeting their

humiliating climb-down is what they got wrong last week in the

programme. If this can happen it to a Cabinet minister, what hope is

there for anyone else? Thus the Home Affairs Select Committee concluded

what many already thought about the treatment of Andrew Mitchell by

three self-styled PC plebs. They met him to clear the air over what did

or did not happen when he was prevented from ramming his bike

through the Downing Street gates. But the officers gave the media and

inaccurate account of that meeting. Two of them are even accused of

misleading the Commons committee. The Independent Police Complaints

Commission will now reopen there enquiry. This is not a story about

Andrew Mitchell, it is about the police. Keith Vaz is often in high

dudgeon and this is the highest dad and I have seen him in for some

time. They could be held for contempt of Parliament and

technically they could be sent to prison. It has blown up into an

enormous story. I do not know what is worse, the police trying to

stitch up a Cabinet member and try to mislead the media or the

incompetence they have done it from day one. That is quite good. I would

sleep more soundly at night if I knew the pleas were good at this. It

is the incompetence that shocks me. And this is just a sideshow. We are

still waiting on the main report as to what exactly happened outside

Downing Street gates. But that not will be good for the police either.

The file has gone from the Metropolitan police to the CPS, so

we are limited about what we can say. This is about the police

Federation. They were set up under statute in 1990 as a deal in which a

police would not go on strike. This is a political campaign to get a

Cabinet minister out and the legacy of this is the police Federation

will have to be reformed. We will keep an eye on it. They were Ed

Miliband's union backers, they swung the Labour leadership for him in

2010. Now the Unite union looks like his biggest headache. The Sunday

Times has seen extracts of the report into the alleged vote rigging

to select a Labour candidate in Falkirk. There was evidence of

coercion and Gregory as well as deliberate attempt to frustrate the

enquiry. We will be speaking to Len McCluskey, the Unite union's General

Secretary, in a moment. First out the saga began an almost ended up

with the loss of 800 jobs at a petrochemical plant in Grangemouth.

Unite were key players in the Grangemouth dispute and the union

headed by Len McCluskey has come under fire for its intimidator Tariq

tactics. In one instance demonstrators complete with an

inflatable rat picketed the home of a INEOS director. The police were

called. It was part of a strategy the union called leverage. But

turning up at people's houses seems to represent an escalation. At the

centre of the rout was Steve in deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS

launched an investigation into him as he was suspected of using company

time to engineer the selection of labour's candidate in Falkirk. That

candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans

resigned last week and denies any wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic

climb-down by Unite union. Len McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to

the Sunday Times we now know what is in this labour report on the Falkirk

vote rigging. Forgery, coercion, trickery, manipulation. You must be

ashamed of how Unite union behaved in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article

is lazy journalism. There is nothing new in the article. This was all

dealt with by the Labour Party in the summer. We rejected those

allegations then and we said we had done nothing wrong and both the

Labour Party and the police in Scotland indicated there had been no

wrongdoing. The report itself says you were trying to thwart the

investigation. First you tried to fix the selection of a candidate to

get your woman in and then you thwarted the investigation into the

dirty deeds. The reality is the Labour Party report was deeply

flawed. The Labour Party then instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to

do an in-depth investigation and during that investigation they got

to the bottom of what had happened and they decided there was no

wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I was so confident we had done

nothing, I called for an independent enquiry. They were forced to

conclude there was no wrongdoing because the people who originally

complained changed their evidence and we now know they did so because

Unite union officials helped them to rewrite their retraction and Stevie

Deans approved it. That is not true. We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into

the public arena and what is that all about? Who is leaking this? They

showed the Unite union was rewriting the retractions. This interview

would go a lot better if you are allowed me to finish the question

that you asked. These e-mails were put into the public arena by the PR

company from INEOS. Why are they doing this? The truth of the matter

is that all of the investigations that took place demonstrate there

was nothing to answer. This idea that the Unite union has rewritten

and the evidence from the families has been withdrawn, the families are

a part of Stevie deems' family. They clarified the position. Do you deny

that union officials were involved in the retractions? I deny it

completely. This is important. Independent solicitors to witness

statements from the family and they are the ones that were influencing

the Labour Party with the position is clarified and there is no case to

answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw their retractions? It is his family.

So you do not deny it? It is his family. This is an ordinary, decent

family who were faced with the full weight of the pleas, a forensic

solicitor. Of course they spoke to Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a

cesspit. Does it not need an independent investigation? This is a

trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all the

demands. The media, the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, the Conservative

mouthpiece, they are laying tracks for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband

should not fall into them. Since when did it become part of an

industrial dispute to send mobs to the home of company families. This

is a legitimate form of protest and it is a silent protest. We believe

if faceless directors are making decisions that cripple communities,

they cannot expect to simply drift back to their own leafy suburbia and

not be countable. This is silent protest. It is lawful. It may be

silent in Grangemouth, but it was not silent elsewhere. You went with

a giant rat, loud-hailers telling everybody the neighbour was evil.

No, we did not. You had loud-hailers, you even encouraged

passing children in Grangemouth to join in. That is nonsense. Look at

the rat. The reality is the Grangemouth community was going to

be decimated, Grangemouth was going to become a ghost town. I reject

totally this idea there were loud-hailers and children involved.

That is a lie perpetrated by the Daily Mail. But you have used these

tactics in other disputes. We have used the tactics in other disputes,

but we have not used loud-hailers at people's homes. Because the labour

laws are so restrictive we have to look at every available means that

we can protest. It is an outrage, an absolute outrage, that this is

happening to British workers in the 21st-century. It could not happen

elsewhere. Is not intimidation the wider hallmark of your union? You

were quoted as saying to do whatever it takes during your attempts to

take over the Labour Falkirk constituency. You were instructing

to dig out the nasty stuff on your opponents. That is not true. Let's

see these e-mails? This is a con trick. Nobody is looking to dig

out... This is the words of your legal services advisor. Unite has

tried to instigate a revival of trade union values within the Labour

Party. That is what Ed Miliband wanted us to do. As soon as we

started to be in any way ineffective, there were screams and

howls of derision. When the company started to investigate Stevie Deans,

your friend, your campaign manager, that he was using company time to

moonlight on the job, you called INEOS and said unless you stop the

investigation we will bring Grangemouth to a standstill. I never

said that at all. You brought it to a standstill. We never brought it to

a standstill, the company did. Who says that I said that we would bring

it to a standstill? You have read it in the newspapers. You should not

believe everything. I did not make that threat to the management. You

carried the threat out. You instigated an overtime ban and a

work to rule. And that is what Grangemouth to a standstill because

the company decided to close the petrochemical site down. Because

Stevie Deans was suspended due introduced industrial action? Our

members in Grangemouth felt he was being unfairly treated. In the end

you're grandstanding almost cost Scotland is most important

industrial facility. The day was saved by your total capitulation.

Grandstanding, capitulation and humiliation are grand phrases. There

is nothing about capitulation. Len McCluskey did not wake up one day

and decide to have a dispute with INEOS. The workers in that factory

democratically elect their shop stewards to represent them and to

express to management their concerns and their views. That is what

happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has condemned your union's handling of

Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have you considered your position? Jack

Straw and others in the Labour Party, you have to ask them what

their agenda is. I am not interested in what he says. The truth of the

matter is we responded to the requirements and needs of our

members. At a mass meeting last Monday 100% supported their shop

stewards and their union. We will continue to stand shoulder to

shoulder with our members when they are faced with difficult situations.

You have lost all the union rights. You have had to agree to a no strike

rule, you have lost pension rights. We have not lost rights at all, we

are still working with the company to implement its survival plan. The

Prime Minister is always attacking unions and just lately he has taken

to praising the automotive industry. Jaguar Land Rover,

Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all Unite union members were the shop

stewards are engaged positively to implement survival plans and to make

a success for the company. That is what we do, but by the same token we

stand shoulder to shoulder with our members who are in struggle and we

will always do that and we will not be cowed by media attacks on us. Is

your leadership not proving to be as disastrous for the members as Arthur

Scargill was for the NUM? My membership is growing. I am

accountable to my members, two are executive, and the one thing they

will know is that when they want me standing shoulder to shoulder with

them when they have a problem, I will be there, despite the

disgraceful attacks launched on us by the media.

"A country ready to welcome your investment which values your

friendship and will never exclude anyone because of their race,

religion, colour or creed." The words of the Prime minister at the

World Islamic Economic Forum which was hosted for the first time in

London this week. The PM's warm words are sure to be welcomed by

British Muslims who have endured a spate of negative headlines. There's

been the controversy over the wearing of the veil, attitudes to

women, and the radicalisation of some young British Muslims. In a

moment I'll be talking to the Secretary General of the Muslim

Council of Britain, Farooq Murad. First - here's Giles Dilnot. The

call to Friday prayers at the east London Mosque which has strong links

with the Muslim Council of Britain, one of the more vocal groups amongst

British Muslims. Despite the fact it frequently happens, it is neither

helpful nor accurate to describe the British Muslim community. There are

so many different sects, traditions, cultures and

nationalities, it is more accurate to describe the British Muslim

communities, but there is one question being put to them - are

they doing enough internally to address some challenging issues?

they doing enough internally to address some challenging issues Are

they willing to confront radicalisation, attitudes to

non-muslins, two women, and cases of sexual exploitation in a meaningful

way? A number of them say no, not nearly enough. This former jihad de

has spent ten years telling young Muslim teenagers how they can reject

extremist radicalisation, using Outward Bound courses and community

work, but he and others doing this work thing -- think some elders are

failing the youngsters. This has been going on for decades, one

figures -- thing is said in public to please people but in private

something very different is being said and the messages are being

confused. Some of the young people, it pushes them further into a space

where they are vulnerable for radical recruiters. For many Muslim

youngsters, life is about living 1's faith within an increasingly secular

society, a struggle not helped if rigid interpretations of the Koran

are being preached, say some sectors. Some practices often don't

make sense in 21st-century Britain, and you are perhaps creating

obstacles if you stick to those and it is perhaps better to let go of

those cultural problems, especially when they need to clear injustices

like forced marriage, reticence to talk about grooming for example or

talk about grooming for example, or discrimination against women. There

is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the

one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist

perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of

minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public

places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy

of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and

that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the

preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council

of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating

sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved

predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for

some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We

need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the

normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and

chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that

actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible

with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to

women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures

of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain

itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they

are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to

are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are

experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages,

what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not

being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance

rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been

found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in

this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what

are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem

of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be

exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many

Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a

big cultural gap will exist between the two.

And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq

Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the

veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible

to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory

requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting

themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst

wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life

successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red

herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim

girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point

of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the

public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones

who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a

practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour

it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women

should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the

veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is

important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free

choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their

free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it

helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away

from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad

thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim

preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim

women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim

women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being

forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and

what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,

very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is

wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other

Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider

that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any

Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an

organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not

coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by

individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that

would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would

not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires

children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you

agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have

just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a

black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on

anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.

I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think

it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would

wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some

muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the

start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I

would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic

girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the

top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.

But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those

girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I

am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.

There is a very conservative movement from the continent on

Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their

website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged

to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should

not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you

think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They

are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree

with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is

what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is

quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you

agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back

to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.

This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.

Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday

mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your

counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they

have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is

advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the

Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The

Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots

of common issues to create a community which positively

integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate

for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications

available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your

organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall

under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British

mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of

prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to

prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very

beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?

Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council

have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious

stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at

this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.

That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we

live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they

have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You

would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like

that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation

to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's

bound by the Charity commission s rules and regulations. We only

accept those who are under the law of this country. This is a matter of

taste. Let me move on to a bigger issue. In 2009 you signed the

Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul declaration was signed. Do you still

support it? No, we never signed it or supported it. One of your leading

lights signed it. In the media mainstream he defended his position.

You have this associated yourself from it? What is wrong with that? I

am not sure about the declaration because we disassociated ourselves.

Before reading it? We did not sign it. You have not read it? I do not

know all the aspects of the declaration, but at the time in the

national newspapers and media there was a discussion and a debate and it

was highlighted that that was not what was meant by the declaration.

When did you decide so is the yourself from the declaration? From

day one. We never signed it. The East London Mosque which you are

personally closely associated with is the venue for a number of

extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the

mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described

by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another

speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad

is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop

extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?

We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or

supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is

a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is

a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told

their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to

speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a

Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did

not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and

have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I

completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,

the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the

toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted

among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a

non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which

embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim

community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which

are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our

view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The

work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all

associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to joke Umunna

and looking at the week ahead with our political pattern. Until then,

the Sunday Politics across the UK. Welcome to us and my guest for the

next 20 minutes, Steven Reid, the Labour MP for Croydon North, and

Theresa Villiers, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Coming

up later, the London council which is spending tens of thousands of

pounds electronically monitoring some of its staff. But first, to the

big shake-up in emergency health care in London. It affects the four

hospitals directly. To accident and emergency departments at Central --

Central Middlesex and Hammersmith. But those at Charing Cross and

Ealing will continue in a different form. Ealing and Charing Cross are

saying they are going to be accident and emergency units, but they do not

look like they will be staffed by consultants. Maybe GPs, but they may

not take the serious blue light cases. Is there a smoke and mirrors

going on? No, the Secretary of State for health has said they will

continue to be an accident and emergency service at those

hospitals. The whole of the reconfiguration has been looked at

by an independent panel and it is driven by clinical need and has

significant clinical and GP support for it. It has always got to be the

local driver, what is the best for the patients. Why create the

impression these are going to be accident and emergency departments?

You should be confident about your argument about that? The health

secretary has said there will be accident and emergency departments

at those hospitals. The key point identified by the minister is that

this is the recommendation of experts, the health practitioners in

the area and much wider. You cannot complain about it. They had to do

the best within the resources the government is giving them and those

resources are inadequate. The Health Secretary is calling it an accident

and emergency unit, but a different size. They are turning it more into

something like an urgent care centre for which there is no definition.

That might be what one of the local MPs might say, but the wider

configurations is something Labour was saying was necessary.

Rationalisation to about five major accident and emergency departments

in the area. Local people do not want to see their local departments

taken away. In 48 weeks out of 2 taken away. In 48 weeks out of 52

London missed the government's four hour waiting time limit. That shows

me we have a huge pressure on accident and emergency and reducing

the number of units will not help us deal with that kind of pressure. Is

this service is really safe in Conservative hands? We are

determined to support the NHS in the pressures of accident and emergency.

Unlike Labour in Wales, they are decreasing money on the NHS. We have

also found extra resources this winter and we are looking at the

causes of that extra pressure and part of it was the GP contract

signed by the previous government. People find it more difficult to get

out of hours care from their GP and they are more likely to turn up at

AMD. That is why record numbers are turning up. But recently the four

hour waiting time has been good. What about the decision to make

changes in Lewisham which was overturned by the High Court this

week. What kind of situation is it when judges can prevent a Secretary

of State adopting a rational policy to reconfigure services? The court

is entitled to look at all sorts of decisions made by ministers. My

feeling is sometimes a judicial review is overused. But the

important thing is we get the right outcome for hospital services in

that area. The key factor has to be what is the clinical case. Does the

clinical case say we need to consolidate services? That should be

the driver of decisions. Whether ultimately the decision 's end up

being reviewed by the court or not is neither here nor there. Much more

to come. Stay with us. New council in East London has spent around

?100,000 on a radio system which tracks the movement and location of

its staff. The council says the GPS devices enable them to deploy

security and law enforcement staff more efficiently, but some question

is valued at a time of cuts. The GPS uses satellites to track

things and people on earth. It has been used at this courier company

for about five years. All their vehicles have tracking devices which

let people in the office know exactly where they are, where they

have been and what speed they have been driving at. You no longer have

to take the driver's word for a where they are. It will not stop

here. If we can track vehicles and people, I do not know what else we

can track, but they will find something. GPS is being used more

and more. The market has doubled in the last two years. But just because

it is a success in local courier companies, does that mean local

authorities should be doing the same thing? According to one London

council, the answer is yes. New has spent over ?100,000 on 171 GPS

devices to keep an eye on their own staff's whereabouts. The tracking is

on the time while the staff is on shift. Is this a first step towards

some kind of Big Brother state where employees are constantly monitored

by their bosses? You say they have received no complaints yet. We would

expect the employee to -- employer to have got the consent of the

member of staff to use them and we would expect them to be used because

they are doing some kind of enforcement and they needed evidence

to take to court that something had happened, or for health and safety

reasons when people are put into dangerous situations. Councils

across London are dealing with huge cuts to their budgets and new has

defined ?62 million worth of savings. This provides accommodation

for 16 - 24-year-olds in new who do not have anywhere else to live. But

the future of one of the key services, support for young mothers,

is being cut. The council is having to reprioritise its funding

generally in light of centrally driven cuts. One of the decisions it

has taken is that this scheme going forward will not be a supported

living scheme for young mothers. Funding costs the council ?41,0 0

living scheme for young mothers. Funding costs the council ?41,000 a

year, less than half of what they have spent on the GPS system. Some

have lost dedicated key workers, have spent on the GPS system. Some

have lost dedicated key workers a have lost dedicated key workers, a

service that some say makes a difference. It is not easy. People

go through hard things. My key worker was my best friend and now

she has gone I do not talk to anyone. It is hard, isn't it? We

asked new to show us their GPS system, but they declined. They gave

us a statement. Others will be watching how the new

experiment goes. It could be that in the future workers across the

capital I watched in this way. It could even be used. We have just

seen the council's explanation. They were replacing their radio system

and GPS came as standard. What was the problem they are trying to

solve? Why does every member of staff need to be tracked in this

way? The trend towards more staff are being monitored in more detail

on a personal level is something that is happening across the public

and private sectors. Is this central to what they are trying to do? If it

was benefit claimants and processing people going for a flag or are going

to the toilet, that would be understandable. Firstly, this is a

council and not the police. When we talk about responding to an incident

it is the peas, not you cancel. The government has just had to take

powers of local councils for abusing their surveillance powers. When you

have this tracking in place the potential for abuse is a real

concern. Peoples main concerns are quality-of-life and things like

that. Law has had the duty of mutual confidence and it makes it look like

the council doesn't trust its staff. If you are local resident and the

council doesn't trust its staff, there is a much bigger cultural

issue and I don't think tracking people is the way to improve the

relationship between the community, council and its employees. Is there

a kind of efficiency measure you would like to see to ensure the

council are getting the best out of their staff? It is difficult today

because we only have a minimal amount of information about the

particular scheme, but certainly the use of GPS can help improve

efficiency. We have seen it used for many years in terms of deployment of

vehicle fleets. I don't think we should rule it out in principle as

an assistance to an employer in keeping an eye on their staff but in

particular I think staff safety is something that can be assisted with

this kind of tracking. Do you like the look of a Labour council wanting

to keep an eye on itself? To be fair to new, they are not micro-chipping

their staff, they just have new radios that cost less than the

previous radios and they are giving them to staff. If you have a housing

officer removing documents from a property for instance, they could be

in danger and it is helpful for the council to know where they are. If

you are talking about tracking all of our stuff all the time, there is

a different issue but new is not going there. Thank you.

Since April this year the Government has given councils responsibility

for administering council tax benefit but has reduced the amount

they are giving them as cost. Tens of thousands of people have been

taken to court sometimes en masse by the local authority for Miss

payments. Last month some of the 5800 people

served the mass summons for falling behind on council tax payments were

in court. Next week the scene will be repeated in Brent. People in

these and many other London boroughs are facing a minimum council tax

payment. It is because local authorities have taken over from

central Government but have been given less to fund it. Six councils

have chosen to protect those on the benefit and make up the difference

from other areas of spending. Others like Southwark and Brent have passed

on the cuts to their people. Why are you taking this action? A lot of

people are receiving summons from you when they cannot pay. It is not

that I wanted to take action but we need to protect the income of the

councils and make sure we can continue to provide the services.

Some of these individuals have. -- have not engaged with us and we want

them to do that so that we can provide the help and support they

need. By creating the summonses, it need. By creating the summonses it

gives us an opportunity to work with them and for them to engage. But it

is not a pleasant thing to get a court summons for how many pounds?

The week that has not been paid perhaps that people simply cannot

pay. The amount of money involved, in the introduction you spoke about

?5, ?10, but it is not just about that. We are trying to make sure the

help is there because some of these people are being impacted by some of

the most severe cuts they are facing in their lives, the housing benefit

cuts and so on, so if we don't know who they are and where they are ..

who they are and where they are... But that is quite a way of getting

them to get in contact, receiving a summons to court. Yes but we have

written to 20,000 individuals, contacted them by phone and worked

with our registered social landlords as well to contact every single one.

Are these people actively not paying it or they don't know they have had

to start paying it because a lot of them are benefit claimants used to

not paying council tax presumably. Is it just that they have not been

aware of the change? They are where but they are scared of coming

forward and asking for help. The last thing I want to do is to scare

people and I have people sitting at the courts, waiting for them to come

in so I can interact with them and we have schemes in trying to get

them back into employment and support them. Is this a policy that

has happened since April that you support, having to manage and

administer yourself? Have you got enough money from the Government?

Absolutely not, the shortfall from the Government has been ?6 million

and every council has had to administer a different scheme and

that means there are over 400 different schemes. The shortfall

means I have had to take a hard look at how to distribute the finer

amount of money we asked the -- we are receiving. Are you saying it is

not an option to chase up the payment? I am doing this in the

fairest manner that I can and making sure that when they go to court I

sure that when they go to court, I have my staff there to help them.

How do you feel about this in your capital? Many people are being

summonsed over money they cannot afford. The overall level of arrears

over the country is not significantly up compared to recent

years. The reality is that it is difficult for local authorities to

collect the council tax that is due and I welcome hearing how much they

are doing to engage. But you transfer the responsibility is to

them and don't give them the money to do it, which disguises a brutal

cut. The support for council tax benefit is still very considerable,

the reality is that we have had to take many tough decisions as this

Government, including on some types of welfare payment. If we weren t

prepared to take those decisions, the deficit crisis would mean higher

interest rates for everyone. There was no easy way out of the situation

we inherited from the last Government. The Government was

spending far more than it could possibly afford, welfare reform has

to play a part in that but we are continuing to support as generously

as possible help with council tax. Under Labour, council tax on average

doubled. We have frozen council tax which is helping people. And you

will know how important it is to collect it. To be honest this is a

problem that originates in Downing Street with David Cameron's decision

to increase council tax for some of the poorest people living in our

communities. This increase is affecting the working poor, carers,

disabled people, war veterans. People are having to give more of

their money thanks to the Government's decision that they put

through at the same time as they implemented a tax cuts for

millionaires. With the last Government you knew the problem of

people not paying and you took loads of people to court, you cannot

criticise this policy now. The councils have no option but to

enforce the law. The law has been made by the conservative led

Government and the councils are left to pick up the pieces. Council tax

on average doubled under Labour and this Government is focusing on

helping people, and that is why we are providing the support to help

people. People are paying more but a smaller percentage of the council

tax because the Government has kept it down. 45, 50% in some councils, I

do not recognise the figures to Reza is reporting. Now it is time for the

rest of the political news in 60 seconds.

At the world Islamic Forum in London the Prime Minister announced London

would become the first non-Muslim country to issue an Islamic bond. We

are taking bold steps to make London one of the greatest centres for

Islamic finance anywhere in the world. During this conference there

will be new support for Islamic entrepreneurs. There are also plans

to create a new Islamic index on the stock exchange. A council house in

south-east London which have been occupied both protesters has fetched

?3 million. It will build 20 new homes. Derek

Osborne, the former Lib Dem Council leader of Kingston upon Thames, was

jailed for two years this week for appalling child pornography at

offences. Hammersmith has become one of the

first councils to roll out universal credit which will replace six means

tested benefits by 2017. Everyone knows the universal benefit

is complicated but you will not overturn this one, will you? We

don't even know if it will work yet. They have invested a lot in an IT

system that many people believe will not actually work. I am not against

the principle of tying benefits up together but the Government looks

like it is walking into a massive fiasco with what they are doing at

the moment and if this goes wrong, once again it will be the most

vulnerable people in our communities that will suffer. Are you worried

about this? It is a crucial reform and at the heart of it is ensuring

that work always pays which is benefiting the most disadvantaged

people in our community. If it can be made to work, and it is a big

if. Some people are suggesting it should be put on the back burner for

a while. It is very ambitious and this Government has been prepared to

deal with welfare reform in a way that has been docked for 15 years.

It is the end result of a simpler system which ensures that those who

want to work are not financially penalised for doing that. It is a

goal worth striving for and I am confident we will deliver that.

Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's

relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the

Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka

Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did

earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.

Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the

Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative

mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he

should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey

denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial

dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side

is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send

its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened

in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families

out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset

particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of

things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own

report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -

forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was

being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the

report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is

something that the police are looking into so that is not

something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We

learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained

to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour

Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party

and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are

looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like

the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil

Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985. Ed

tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed Miliband has sort of tried to take

on the Unite union, but it has not worked. Does then not need to be an

electrifying moment for Ed Miliband? Your own paper has praised him for

seeking to address the issues we have in politics and the

disconnection from people. In many respects the situation in Falkirk

categorises the process of further ongoing change where we are trying

to establish a better relationship with individual trade union members.

In parts of my constituency, some of the most deprived parts, we had

people queueing round the block to vote. I do not think the issue is

that people are not political, but they have never felt so far from

party politics as they do now and that is why Ed Miliband announced

this big chains about how we do things in the Labour Party, so we

change structures in the Labour Party that were set up in the 20th

Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in

which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us

in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3

million working people who ensure our public services function. At

Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk

Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd

union. I do not agree with that. I'd just explained the reason. I do not

think it is fair to ask people to give evidence in an enquiry on the

basis of the report will be confidential and then to publish it

after. But if somebody is trying to take over a Labour constituency to

send an MP of their choice to our Parliament, that should not be

secret, that should be public. Ed Miliband acted very decisively. That

constituency party is still in special measures as I understand it.

This idea that somehow the Unite union runs the Labour Party, they do

not. The special measures mean according to Eric Joyce, that an

ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the meeting. I am interested in the Tory

suggestion that they would offer free Tory party membership to union

members. I then moving onto your turf? We do not know exactly all the

facts and the truth of the allegations that have been made. On

allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the

Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their

rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at

Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of

their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to

our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will

find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets

tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working

in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port

and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets

overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from

unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite

know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears

used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private

sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was

born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of

their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they

can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But

there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is

right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for

their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their

aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their

workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the

protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has

said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.

He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the

radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that

was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend

to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like

land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing

the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.4

million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The

business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances

back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being

used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater

variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro

enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a

living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but

there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business

because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is

good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are

not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax

credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know

after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living

wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and

we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party

pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a

living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.

What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle

as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one

of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this

soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working

together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.

That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be

here again next weekend at 12:25pm after the Remembrance Day service at

the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.

To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.

There were the objects that were making the Earth.

We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.

Your arms are a little bit long. Is that as small as they go?

This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.