13/04/2014 Sunday Politics London


13/04/2014

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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for

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their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'

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time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the

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issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the

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Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever

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we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political

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commentators. They'll be tweeting throughout the programme using the

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hashtag bbcsp. In London this week, the council

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newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not

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impartial about informing people of local services.

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So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next

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thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections

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Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives

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in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of

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MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and

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Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all.

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In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the

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elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first.

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And that privilege goes to Syed Before that, though, here's a quick

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reminder of what all the fuss is about.

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The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on

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Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in

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England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73

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England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the

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vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are

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751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The

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European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners

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and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and

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the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price

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caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food

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regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds.

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Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our

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relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have

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a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out

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referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot

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Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative

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MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,

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really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.

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Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe

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vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,

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fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing

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patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian

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roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting

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with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal

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Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah

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Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are

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about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.

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Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to

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help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that

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bills are brought down for good Labour believes in reform in Europe,

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but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain s

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prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put

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British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick

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O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an

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era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project

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designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old

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hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people

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European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed

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out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.

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That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.

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Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the

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selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock

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the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We

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can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain

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wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power

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and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain

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leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.

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We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an

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example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.

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Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip

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to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think

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of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European

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Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David

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Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,

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he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside

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him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I

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gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our

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supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to

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change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a

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referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no

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idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer

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that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United

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States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the

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referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no

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confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read

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negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at

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the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of

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demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to

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leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not

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changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to

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perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a

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say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was

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deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.

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Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why

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can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First

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of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no

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apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of

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Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and

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business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they

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probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees

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in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is

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necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron

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says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity

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rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out

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vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there

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was a proposal to change powers Why wait? This is based on a series of

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reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent

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about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them

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forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic

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backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable

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to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed

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Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.

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He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be

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a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will

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have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg

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gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the

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Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can

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say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,

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you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that

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is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this

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morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster

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for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick

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Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that

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is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is

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essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the

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EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative

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voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all

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over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or

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out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote

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for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country it

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may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.

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We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,

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our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we

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not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to

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immigration. We have been open to people across the world for

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centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to

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pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are

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three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,

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and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,

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and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that

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only this week the office for National said that they did not

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collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra

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people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size

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of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over

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the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I

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accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In

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the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the

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EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have

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to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute

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positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I

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will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David

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Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they

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really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of

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thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see

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now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control

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and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours And

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that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would

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leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of

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Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are

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you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here

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today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and

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work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are

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wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with

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countries with similar living standards to us. France, the

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Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to

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join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of

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which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of

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free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm

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saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million

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British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right

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to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.

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You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants

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have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than

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they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses

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were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim

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benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that

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they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for

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more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A

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spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and

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Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party

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that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept

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it is a mistake and I apologise We make a firm commitment for new EU

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states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the

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Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration

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was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over

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again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,

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Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2

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million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you

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didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The

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Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is

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trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't

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count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for

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people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the

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habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't

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come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the

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country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say

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it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and

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multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They

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are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality

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control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.

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In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big

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businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool

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place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to

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Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think

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Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their

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backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might

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not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often

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come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it

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represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative

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Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it

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character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther

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and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics

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between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk

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time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have

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trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade

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deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United

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States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in

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favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a

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moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We

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have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants

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coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.

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How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.

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Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout

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in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs

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spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we

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undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we

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speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the

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Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening

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peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come

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together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With

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Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the

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sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling

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Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour

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doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows

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someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening

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peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they

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admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how

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Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We

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don't admire Putin as a leader. . Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage

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said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies

:20:10.:20:12.

Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly

:20:13.:20:18.

but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while

:20:19.:20:23.

carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin

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over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire

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what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy

:20:32.:20:36.

is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,

:20:37.:20:41.

and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to

:20:42.:20:47.

keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign

:20:48.:20:53.

Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this

:20:54.:20:58.

issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that

:20:59.:21:02.

Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless

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foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very

:21:08.:21:12.

important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention

:21:13.:21:20.

in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.

:21:21.:21:25.

Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign

:21:26.:21:32.

up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP

:21:33.:21:38.

opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was

:21:39.:21:43.

against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal

:21:44.:21:50.

on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.

:21:51.:21:55.

We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other

:21:56.:22:00.

people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin

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is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have

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to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and

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in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,

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who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is

:22:22.:22:24.

important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said

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that the idea of an EU Army was "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not

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true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and

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controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European

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Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have

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"deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal

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Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is

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mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we

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must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an

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awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We

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don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role

:23:10.:23:14.

for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.

:23:15.:23:18.

You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of

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dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common

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quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so

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they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a

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European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those

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jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the

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Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since

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the start of the fist world war Remember that Europe was set up to

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try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on

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Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries

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in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to

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keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the

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Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,

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retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse

:24:17.:24:23.

retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers

:24:24.:24:27.

-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign

:24:28.:24:29.

Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I

:24:30.:24:36.

quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David

:24:37.:24:40.

Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than

:24:41.:24:44.

Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in

:24:45.:24:48.

the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times

:24:49.:24:51.

when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to

:24:52.:24:55.

cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are

:24:56.:25:00.

not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear

:25:01.:25:05.

that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.

:25:06.:25:10.

Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through

:25:11.:25:16.

the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from

:25:17.:25:19.

the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and

:25:20.:25:24.

not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of .. ?

:25:25.:25:29.

I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is

:25:30.:25:32.

the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we

:25:33.:25:35.

work with our European partners sometimes we work with our

:25:36.:25:39.

non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work

:25:40.:25:45.

together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country

:25:46.:25:51.

about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't

:25:52.:25:57.

the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts The

:25:58.:26:04.

trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our

:26:05.:26:09.

expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have

:26:10.:26:13.

actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but

:26:14.:26:18.

unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to

:26:19.:26:23.

cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies

:26:24.:26:29.

I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any

:26:30.:26:35.

other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes We

:26:36.:26:41.

voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups

:26:42.:26:46.

haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.

:26:47.:26:50.

Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.

:26:51.:26:55.

You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we

:26:56.:26:59.

don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your

:27:00.:27:05.

attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn

:27:06.:27:08.

up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,

:27:09.:27:12.

UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they

:27:13.:27:17.

didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party

:27:18.:27:22.

decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP

:27:23.:27:26.

representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me

:27:27.:27:32.

saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are

:27:33.:27:39.

quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord

:27:40.:27:43.

and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't

:27:44.:27:49.

you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were

:27:50.:27:54.

jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back

:27:55.:27:59.

?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about

:28:00.:28:03.

getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a

:28:04.:28:07.

secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do

:28:08.:28:12.

wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People

:28:13.:28:17.

who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and

:28:18.:28:21.

that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the

:28:22.:28:26.

allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up

:28:27.:28:29.

when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of

:28:30.:28:33.

using it for parliamentary work Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We

:28:34.:28:39.

were the first British political party to have independent audits of

:28:40.:28:45.

our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.

:28:46.:28:50.

The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the

:28:51.:28:53.

Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my

:28:54.:28:58.

own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been

:28:59.:29:01.

charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot

:29:02.:29:05.

lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We

:29:06.:29:11.

had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking

:29:12.:29:15.

ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people

:29:16.:29:21.

aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply We

:29:22.:29:26.

can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a

:29:27.:29:29.

Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say

:29:30.:29:34.

they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have

:29:35.:29:40.

burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.

:29:41.:29:46.

Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU s

:29:47.:29:52.

financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the

:29:53.:29:58.

financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that

:29:59.:30:04.

all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at

:30:05.:30:08.

the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge

:30:09.:30:11.

of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get

:30:12.:30:16.

enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal

:30:17.:30:19.

Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George

:30:20.:30:24.

Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is

:30:25.:30:28.

properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do

:30:29.:30:33.

that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will

:30:34.:30:37.

sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about

:30:38.:30:42.

?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1.

:30:43.:30:47.

billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.

:30:48.:30:52.

I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to

:30:53.:30:56.

ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our

:30:57.:31:00.

money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led

:31:01.:31:03.

Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to

:31:04.:31:07.

have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...

:31:08.:31:16.

Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate He

:31:17.:31:24.

is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to

:31:25.:31:28.

help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want

:31:29.:31:31.

the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party

:31:32.:31:35.

and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour

:31:36.:31:41.

victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the

:31:42.:31:48.

future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice

:31:49.:31:53.

Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the

:31:54.:31:57.

commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,

:31:58.:32:05.

if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the

:32:06.:32:09.

fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has

:32:10.:32:14.

led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world It

:32:15.:32:17.

is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about

:32:18.:32:20.

the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner

:32:21.:32:25.

for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common

:32:26.:32:29.

agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make

:32:30.:32:34.

Europe more democratic and open But against the rise of Brazil and

:32:35.:32:41.

China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more

:32:42.:32:46.

action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?

:32:47.:32:51.

No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional

:32:52.:32:56.

matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe

:32:57.:33:01.

progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We

:33:02.:33:08.

need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the

:33:09.:33:13.

EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on

:33:14.:33:17.

that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because

:33:18.:33:21.

the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In

:33:22.:33:29.

some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not

:33:30.:33:37.

sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is

:33:38.:33:40.

a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on

:33:41.:33:47.

the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want

:33:48.:33:52.

to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in

:33:53.:33:57.

national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big

:33:58.:34:00.

challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a

:34:01.:34:08.

good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did

:34:09.:34:14.

not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a

:34:15.:34:17.

success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle,

:34:18.:34:23.

the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are

:34:24.:34:30.

not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not

:34:31.:34:34.

on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the

:34:35.:34:38.

future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners

:34:39.:34:43.

with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious I'd

:34:44.:34:47.

tell you what, can I just say.. Would we be Norway? We would be

:34:48.:34:52.

stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the

:34:53.:34:58.

Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our

:34:59.:35:02.

enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the

:35:03.:35:06.

economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest

:35:07.:35:10.

exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and

:35:11.:35:15.

services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you

:35:16.:35:21.

something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day

:35:22.:35:25.

after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody

:35:26.:35:31.

from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about

:35:32.:35:35.

goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have

:35:36.:35:39.

to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let

:35:40.:35:46.

me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not

:35:47.:35:54.

looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get

:35:55.:35:57.

anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your

:35:58.:36:07.

irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the

:36:08.:36:10.

reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve

:36:11.:36:13.

anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the

:36:14.:36:17.

doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a

:36:18.:36:20.

sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not

:36:21.:36:24.

pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we

:36:25.:36:29.

could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we

:36:30.:36:33.

would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But

:36:34.:36:38.

overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not

:36:39.:36:44.

sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform

:36:45.:36:48.

but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that.

:36:49.:36:53.

Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking

:36:54.:37:00.

outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an

:37:01.:37:08.

inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are

:37:09.:37:13.

putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to

:37:14.:37:19.

have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I

:37:20.:37:22.

think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg

:37:23.:37:27.

will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.

:37:28.:37:30.

It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say

:37:31.:37:33.

goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics

:37:34.:37:36.

Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes, the Week Ahead. First

:37:37.:37:39.

though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:37:40.:37:50.

Welcome to the London part of the programme. I'm joined by Tom Brake,

:37:51.:37:58.

the Liberal Democrat MP for Carl Scholten and... Welcome to you both.

:37:59.:38:05.

Later, we will be looking at the councils which some claim are making

:38:06.:38:08.

partial claims in their taxpayer funded newspapers. Three years after

:38:09.:38:12.

new guidelines were introduced. First, secret intelligence reports

:38:13.:38:17.

obtained by BBC London have revealed that some police officers in the

:38:18.:38:20.

flying squad were suspected of plotting to kidnap the partner of a

:38:21.:38:26.

cash van driver to obtain a ?50 000 ransom. According to the documents,

:38:27.:38:30.

a group of London-based officers hatched the alleged plot in the

:38:31.:38:34.

mid-1990s. Sources have told the BBC that the reports were part of a

:38:35.:38:38.

lorry-load of documents thought to have been shredded by the Met. Kate,

:38:39.:38:43.

what do you make of this? With a quick thought, what can the Met to

:38:44.:38:50.

do to restore faith or confidence? Many of these things, of course our

:38:51.:38:54.

historic. Yes, they are. But it does not mean that we cannot try to get

:38:55.:38:59.

to the bottom of it. I think the most worrying thing was the fact

:39:00.:39:03.

that somebody gave permission for all those documents to be shredded

:39:04.:39:06.

and we do not know where the others are. I'd hope they can find them.

:39:07.:39:14.

Most people see the police in the way they see them around their

:39:15.:39:18.

communities. The thing that worries me most about what is happening in

:39:19.:39:22.

the police these days is not just that it is a numbers game, because

:39:23.:39:25.

the numbers, we can argue about whether they have gone up or down,

:39:26.:39:29.

but it is about how they are being used. In my own borough, the

:39:30.:39:31.

commanders do not have much say in how they want to police. We have

:39:32.:39:38.

lost a lot of our community policing, which did a lot of good

:39:39.:39:42.

work in making people feel that the police officer they saw a lot of

:39:43.:39:45.

good work in making people feel that the police officer they saw around

:39:46.:39:47.

the area, they knew him. More recently, that has changed and it is

:39:48.:39:49.

more centralised. The Commissioner coming in, with all the problems

:39:50.:39:56.

that the meat -- the Met had faced, it seems to want to have a hands-on

:39:57.:40:01.

attitude towards London. Do not think you can do that with

:40:02.:40:05.

communities that are different. Good of the Commissioner and senior

:40:06.:40:08.

police officers be excused for saying that this is something that

:40:09.:40:12.

happened a long time ago and, yes, we will deal with it but it is not

:40:13.:40:16.

the picture now? Clearly, these are things that happened a long time ago

:40:17.:40:19.

and there have been measures taken which should ensure that they do not

:40:20.:40:24.

happen again. For instance, the College of policing is set up and is

:40:25.:40:27.

a code of ethics that officers will have to follow. There are is a

:40:28.:40:33.

public enquiry underway into the issue of undercover officers. There

:40:34.:40:37.

is action being taken. They do not think the scope for complacency One

:40:38.:40:40.

of the areas that Kate has referred to, where I think you could reduce

:40:41.:40:44.

the risk of these sorts of things happening, is if more borough is in

:40:45.:40:49.

London were to adopt the model that Sutton has adopted, of a partnership

:40:50.:40:54.

between the local police and the local authority where they have

:40:55.:40:58.

pooled resources to tackle crime. That means that they are working

:40:59.:41:02.

more cooperatively together and think the risk of the police going

:41:03.:41:05.

off and doing something by themselves is reduced as a result.

:41:06.:41:09.

And that happens a lot in my borough, in the north, where we have

:41:10.:41:14.

big companies. Many of the big employers are set up their own

:41:15.:41:20.

employers groups and are actually putting extra money into trying to

:41:21.:41:23.

get the environment improved and better policed. It is not all doom

:41:24.:41:30.

and gloom but obviously these things make people feel worried and we need

:41:31.:41:34.

to get to the bottom of it. Moving on, the mayor announced another

:41:35.:41:37.

scheme this week to build more housing. If regressed, London

:41:38.:41:41.

Housing bank would provide loans to developers to speed up development

:41:42.:41:46.

is that have had planning permission but are taking too long to complete.

:41:47.:41:51.

Demand for housing in London is huge but across the city there of sites

:41:52.:41:56.

which are standing empty despite planning permission having already

:41:57.:42:00.

been granted. City Hall estimates it could be as many as 200,000

:42:01.:42:03.

potential homes which have yet to be built. This week, Boris Johnson

:42:04.:42:09.

announced a ?200 million plan to change that. We are launching a new

:42:10.:42:16.

housing bank which aims to give money, on a short-term basis, up to

:42:17.:42:23.

ten years, to developers, to build homes now on the later phases of big

:42:24.:42:29.

schemes. The new housing would be let to Londoners at below the market

:42:30.:42:33.

rate. After ten years, the homes would be sold and the initial loan

:42:34.:42:36.

that would be repaid to City Hall. With a population in London due to

:42:37.:42:42.

increased by 20%, housing will become even more of a priority. And

:42:43.:42:45.

it will take more than this one scheme to fix the problem.

:42:46.:42:50.

Let's talk to the Chief Executive of shelter. What do you think of that

:42:51.:42:58.

idea? It is a start. It is only one of the things that needs to happen.

:42:59.:43:03.

It is not going to change the nature of the crisis that is facing many

:43:04.:43:06.

Londoners. Prices are going up, as R.N. Is. With the best will in the

:43:07.:43:12.

world, we are only building about 6000 of the 13,000 affordable homes

:43:13.:43:17.

we need this year. Implicit is this -- in this is that developers do not

:43:18.:43:20.

have the money. Are the banks lending to them? It is an

:43:21.:43:26.

interesting question and I think developers should be answering that

:43:27.:43:29.

question and looking at how they can use the land they have better to get

:43:30.:43:32.

that out. There's also the question of affordability. One of the most

:43:33.:43:39.

used words in the endless language, some of these properties are not

:43:40.:43:41.

going to be affordable to many Londoners. When you hear that the

:43:42.:43:46.

offer is to try to get developers to build them and then, for ten years,

:43:47.:43:52.

they will be rented at below market rent. What do you make of that? In

:43:53.:43:56.

some areas, that is still a lot of money. I think the problem is that

:43:57.:44:01.

for ten years, what is going to happen to the House and the people

:44:02.:44:03.

in that house? There are still questions. This is a good start but

:44:04.:44:14.

it is likely piecemeal. We need bigger on a grander schemes. The

:44:15.:44:18.

idea of the mere using a limited amount of money, when there are

:44:19.:44:26.

banks there to be doing it, shouldn't the mayor be able to? --

:44:27.:44:34.

the idea of the mayor. That is the height of a political debate. But at

:44:35.:44:38.

the moment, between the both parties. There are a lot of powers

:44:39.:44:42.

that he could use to force these issues and that is what we need to

:44:43.:44:48.

see. What kind of thing? We could begin to ask questions about putting

:44:49.:44:53.

powers in place, about why land is left empty for so long. There are

:44:54.:44:57.

options around taxation. Those are issues which the political parties

:44:58.:45:00.

are discussing at the moment and we would like to see them pushed. We

:45:01.:45:04.

would like to see the mayor use all of his powers. Would that be more

:45:05.:45:09.

effective? We need to see investment, absolutely, which makes

:45:10.:45:14.

it affordable and ensures that it is affordable. And we need the

:45:15.:45:17.

political will to drive this element forward. There is land available and

:45:18.:45:20.

we should be using it. Tom Brake, why should the mere or City Hall the

:45:21.:45:26.

needing to provide this kind of money on a loan basis? -- mayor

:45:27.:45:36.

Given the pressure on housing in London we need as wide a range of

:45:37.:45:41.

initiatives as possible. When will we see them? I would like to see the

:45:42.:45:45.

idea of community trusts where the land would be held separately in a

:45:46.:45:48.

trust. You would then be able to build properties at a much lower

:45:49.:45:51.

rate because people would not be taking in the value of the land

:45:52.:45:55.

when they make the purchase. We also need to see schemes, perhaps that

:45:56.:46:00.

covenant properties - I mean my worry here as was outlined is that

:46:01.:46:05.

in ten years' time, if those properties simply go for sale, there

:46:06.:46:08.

is no chance the tennants in the properties will be able to buy them.

:46:09.:46:13.

You need to put a covenant on those flats so, when they get passed on,

:46:14.:46:16.

if someone moves out, they get passed on to someone who equally

:46:17.:46:21.

needs affordable housing, rather than losing that to the bulk of

:46:22.:46:25.

affordable housing available in London. Do you go along with that?

:46:26.:46:29.

Very many of my constituents will not benefit in the slightest from an

:46:30.:46:32.

awful lot of the building going on noement, particularly along the

:46:33.:46:36.

riverside, where although there is a small percentage going to be

:46:37.:46:39.

affordable, it is not, as you have said "affordable" to many, many of

:46:40.:46:44.

them. I would like to see us go back to really basics, which was local

:46:45.:46:49.

authorities being able to build more what are genuine council housing.

:46:50.:46:55.

Being able to borrow. Some are doing that. A few councils are doing a

:46:56.:46:58.

small amount of that. That's what we need. We also need to get to a

:46:59.:47:02.

situation where, when places are built, as you say, they are not then

:47:03.:47:07.

able to be sold on. I don't think we are ever going stop the right-to-buy

:47:08.:47:11.

but for example n my area I have a lot of Co-Opes, they cannot be sold

:47:12.:47:16.

on. That makes a difference. And you agree with, that I don't think you

:47:17.:47:20.

are agreeing with the borrowing power. The Government allows local

:47:21.:47:27.

authorities to borrow a little bit, we would argue it could let them

:47:28.:47:32.

bore yes more. We know that there is austerity, we know that the need to

:47:33.:47:36.

to control spending, but surely when so many people are out there saying

:47:37.:47:41.

- you have to take this step, why is this not happening? Well, I think

:47:42.:47:46.

there are initiatives underway, for instance with the right-to-buy local

:47:47.:47:51.

authorities are the in position to build new homes from the money they

:47:52.:47:54.

have raised from selling properties. That's something I would want to

:47:55.:47:57.

encourage local authorities to do. In London, for instance, I think the

:47:58.:48:00.

mayor could do more in terms of releasing land that he has or the

:48:01.:48:05.

GLA and Transport for London, releasing land for building

:48:06.:48:08.

affordable homes and the mayor in relation to some of the larger

:48:09.:48:12.

projects, around Battersea power station, for instance, could be

:48:13.:48:15.

demanding a higher percentage of affordable homes. We'll make a

:48:16.:48:21.

reference to that later. I'm sorry to can you cut you short.

:48:22.:48:25.

Three years ago the coalition government introduced guidelines for

:48:26.:48:27.

council-run newspapers and magazines, then it accused some

:48:28.:48:30.

authorities of using publications to put out political propaganda. Now,

:48:31.:48:35.

it's still accusing some councils of doing that as well.

:48:36.:48:42.

Local authorities are publishing magazines full of propaganda. Not

:48:43.:48:48.

far off Soviet Russia's notorious paper. At least according to the

:48:49.:48:53.

government. In 2011 they tried introducing a voluntary code of

:48:54.:48:56.

practice but ministers say it is being ignored by some authorities.

:48:57.:49:00.

Two weeks ago they wrote to six of them, threatening them ultimately

:49:01.:49:04.

with legal action. Five of the six are in London. Either there is

:49:05.:49:08.

unfair competition, using tax payers' money, for example, a weekly

:49:09.:49:11.

newspaper that takes on and makes it very difficult for the freedom of

:49:12.:49:14.

independent press or if there is political prop began darks tax

:49:15.:49:17.

payers' money should not be used for that. Dobb propaganda. We asked the

:49:18.:49:22.

five councils involved for an interview but they declined. They

:49:23.:49:26.

pointed out the magazines were popular with local residents and in

:49:27.:49:30.

some cases made the local authority money from advertising. Some

:49:31.:49:36.

disputed whether they breached government outlines.

:49:37.:49:40.

In Hammersmith and Fulham the council's fortnightly H F news had

:49:41.:49:43.

been criticised by a local commercial newspaper and others and

:49:44.:49:48.

the council replaced it with this magazine but according to the local

:49:49.:49:54.

Labour Party, the council's publication takes a stance on social

:49:55.:49:59.

issues, here it says the local Charing Cross Hospital's future is

:50:00.:50:03.

secured but Labour were out on the streets this week defending the

:50:04.:50:07.

hospital against what it calls the effective closure. We are asking

:50:08.:50:11.

people to stand with us to save the hospital. In actual fact it would be

:50:12.:50:16.

13% would be less. The day after it was announced they were going to do

:50:17.:50:20.

that a glossy magazine, at ?20, 00 of public money, went to every

:50:21.:50:24.

household in the borough splashed with the headline -- Charing Cross

:50:25.:50:28.

Hospital saved. It is not true. Labour claim the council magazine

:50:29.:50:31.

has been used as an express to telephone residents in hair homes

:50:32.:50:34.

and push the one-sided view of another council policy. Council tax

:50:35.:50:38.

w no mention of what Labour says is the other half of the story, the

:50:39.:50:42.

introduction of over 600 new stealth taxes.

:50:43.:50:44.

Residents were called at home and asked: "Did you receive a companiy

:50:45.:50:52.

of Your magazine on Friday?" Did you find the Your mg zeen informative,

:50:53.:50:56.

do you agree with the council's proposal to cut council tax again by

:50:57.:51:00.

3% next year? Someone sitting at home, cooking

:51:01.:51:03.

their tea. They are busy, the phone rings, you have a council official

:51:04.:51:08.

on the line asking you about a one-sided Conservative poll sane the

:51:09.:51:12.

other side is ?64 million of stealth taxes, never mentioned at all. They

:51:13.:51:16.

were specifically asking questions designed to give a false impression

:51:17.:51:21.

of the Conservative administration's record and to get it into people's

:51:22.:51:25.

consciousness. What exactly was going on here? Sunday Politics asked

:51:26.:51:29.

a leading polling company. There has been circumstances, in America

:51:30.:51:33.

largely, of where people have done things called push polls where

:51:34.:51:37.

really they are pretending to do a poll but their ultimate aim has fwon

:51:38.:51:42.

push out negative propaganda about their opponents. -- aim has been to

:51:43.:51:47.

push out. This isn't the same but is the main aim of this to put out a

:51:48.:51:51.

message or to get results? It is almost impossible to say. But what

:51:52.:51:55.

is clear is that despite Government guidelines coming in three years

:51:56.:52:00.

ago, the controversy surrounding local government publicity remains.

:52:01.:52:04.

I'm joined by the Conservative deputy leader of Hammersmith and

:52:05.:52:08.

Fulham Council, Greg Smith to respond to am soft things we heard

:52:09.:52:12.

there. Welcome. Fist of, let's take that example about a hospital. You

:52:13.:52:17.

say saved or this says saved when we know it is losing most of its floor

:52:18.:52:21.

space and services are going. Were you, are you using taxpayer funded

:52:22.:52:26.

publications for misleading information? We have halved

:52:27.:52:30.

communication spending since 20002346 Hammersmith and full. What

:52:31.:52:33.

that particular example, we think it is very important to pet let our

:52:34.:52:37.

residents know what we are doing on their behalf. -- to let our

:52:38.:52:41.

residents know. Councils don't run the NHS. We have no control over

:52:42.:52:44.

hospitals but there was a proposal put down by NHS London essentially

:52:45.:52:49.

close Charing Cross Hospital instead of waving placards we got in front

:52:50.:52:52.

of the Secretary of State, we got in front of the officials at the NHS

:52:53.:52:56.

and we got them to a position where there will still be a hospital on

:52:57.:52:59.

that site. In fact ?100 million rebuild of the site. There will

:53:00.:53:03.

still be emergency functions there, there will still be specialist

:53:04.:53:06.

cancer services and other services. There will still be a hospital

:53:07.:53:09.

serving our residents on that site. What about the second main claim

:53:10.:53:13.

there in the film, you are getting council people to ring people up

:53:14.:53:17.

afterwards and asking them that third question - do you or don't you

:53:18.:53:22.

approve of or like our 3% cut in council tax. I looked into that It

:53:23.:53:26.

wasn't something the council Z the people who distributed the quarterly

:53:27.:53:30.

magazine do a poll to check their guys haven't been chucking them in

:53:31.:53:33.

the bin and people have received their magazine. It was them, was it?

:53:34.:53:38.

They phoned up 100 people. 100 people out of a population of

:53:39.:53:42.

183,500 and asked them if they had their magazine. They put that

:53:43.:53:46.

additional question N I don't even know what the result of that poll

:53:47.:53:51.

was. -- that additional question in. What on earth is it o to do with

:53:52.:53:56.

them? They said - do you want to put an extra question in, we thought,

:53:57.:53:59.

why not, we have not seen the results. But you were using that

:54:00.:54:03.

opportunity - we described it as push polling, but you were using it

:54:04.:54:07.

as an opportunity to remind those people you had cut council tax 00

:54:08.:54:13.

people were phoned it was not a taxpayer-funded exercise it was

:54:14.:54:17.

something they did as a standard practice. Do you think it is right,

:54:18.:54:21.

or do you do it as well, do you accept that you use council

:54:22.:54:29.

publications, your new quarterly magazine, to put the Conservative

:54:30.:54:33.

gloss on there. Every organisation wants to at the time people it

:54:34.:54:37.

serves, whether it is a council serving residents or a business

:54:38.:54:40.

serving customers, what they are doing. We fully comply with the new

:54:41.:54:45.

code the government has brought in. But this is nothing new. The Labour

:54:46.:54:49.

Party when they ran Hammersmith and Fulham produced a ?500,000 glossy

:54:50.:54:56.

magazine a year called HFM. Our magazine don't cost the tax payers a

:54:57.:55:03.

penny because the advertisers going... This was February 2006 a

:55:04.:55:08.

couple of months before the local elections. Kate Hoey, does everyone

:55:09.:55:12.

do it? Every council wants to get information out. If it is run by a

:55:13.:55:16.

particular political party, good things, then, they feel will go to

:55:17.:55:20.

their party. Lambeth, I think, did used to do some pretty dreadful prop

:55:21.:55:27.

began da. Now I'm quite -- propaganda. Now I'm happy and

:55:28.:55:31.

relaxed. We have a monthly magazine which is really about information.

:55:32.:55:34.

It is not party political. And actually there are a lot of people

:55:35.:55:38.

in my constituency who aren't on emain don't get communications in a

:55:39.:55:42.

way that perhaps some of us would. -- aren't on e-mail.

:55:43.:55:46.

A magazine about telling them what is happening can be useful. I think

:55:47.:55:49.

all political parties need to be careful but ultimately the public

:55:50.:55:52.

aren't stupid. They know when they are being told something. If that's

:55:53.:55:58.

the case, why on earth does the government feel it wants to

:55:59.:56:01.

interfere or go to six councils and say - we don't like the way you said

:56:02.:56:06.

that or this document you are proproducing? I don't understand t

:56:07.:56:10.

one of the councils Greenwich, produces a weekly newspaper. --

:56:11.:56:17.

understand it... People people informed, admirable. I would be

:56:18.:56:23.

surprised if there was enough information to proindividual a

:56:24.:56:27.

weekly newspaper. The trouble is, there is a risk that the content of

:56:28.:56:31.

that, because there isn't enough on a weekly basis to provide conthaent

:56:32.:56:36.

is factual, the content -- conthaent is factual. It is likely to be more

:56:37.:56:40.

political spin than it is useful information for the residents My

:56:41.:56:44.

borough used to put out different leaflets about different things if

:56:45.:56:47.

you add up the cost of those, if you do one properly produced monthly one

:56:48.:56:52.

t can save money. I'm very relaxed about it, but it does have to be

:56:53.:56:57.

carefully looked at. I can understanden, at certain times,

:56:58.:57:01.

coming up to elections-- I can understand. I suspect over the next

:57:02.:57:07.

few years most council also move towards social media and delivering

:57:08.:57:12.

information by e-mail. A lot of people don't get e-mail. Will you

:57:13.:57:16.

keep this going? We have stripped out the cost. Our publications are

:57:17.:57:20.

funded by advertising and at the same time we have managed to cut

:57:21.:57:24.

council tax by 20% over eight years. And put up a few extra. That's a

:57:25.:57:28.

discussion for another time. The rest of the political news in 6

:57:29.:57:35.

Seconds. A A man convicted of links with the

:57:36.:57:40.

Mafia in Italy has been released on bail after being re-arrested. He was

:57:41.:57:44.

detained in west London after a fresh European arrest warrant was

:57:45.:57:47.

received from Italy. He was allowed to stay in the UK after winning a

:57:48.:57:52.

fist extradition battle last month. -- a first.

:57:53.:57:59.

Newham council refunded up 347, 00 to almost 500 drivers after parking

:58:00.:58:06.

tickets were illegally issued. Controversy over the plans for the

:58:07.:58:12.

redevelopment, phase 3 of the batter Battersea Power Station were

:58:13.:58:15.

revealed. 1300 homes will be created but 03

:58:16.:58:20.

will be affordable. Following the rows I nafgs Culture

:58:21.:58:29.

Secretary, Maria Miller d following the resignation -- -- following the

:58:30.:58:36.

resignation of Culture Secretary, Maria Miller, Zac Goldsmith wants to

:58:37.:58:40.

give constituents the power of recalling their MP.

:58:41.:58:45.

And Tom Brake, will you be pushing for what Zac Goldsmith wants?. It is

:58:46.:58:48.

a Liberal Democrat commitment in our manifesto that we'll deliver recall.

:58:49.:58:52.

It is a coalition agreement that we will - it is in the coalition

:58:53.:58:56.

agreement that we'll deliver recall. There is a Government desire to do

:58:57.:59:01.

that. When? We have already published a draft bi. It is being

:59:02.:59:05.

consulted on. There are two triggers in the bill. The first trigger would

:59:06.:59:08.

be if a Member of Parliament received a prison sentence or a

:59:09.:59:13.

custodial sentence of 12 months or less, automatically that would

:59:14.:59:16.

trigger a petition that their constituents could sign and the

:59:17.:59:20.

second trigger, a bit more complex, would be a trigger of - if the

:59:21.:59:25.

Member of Parliament had committed serious wrong-doing, then also if

:59:26.:59:29.

the standards committee agreed to that and if the House agreed to it,

:59:30.:59:35.

then that could also be... I don't think actually it is as good, the

:59:36.:59:40.

bill they are putting and discussing which Zac Goldsmith's bill, which

:59:41.:59:43.

I'm a supporter of. I think there needs to be a mechanism. He is

:59:44.:59:48.

saying you need 20% of people within eight weeks would have to sign a

:59:49.:59:52.

petition. That's right. Because that avoids it just being - no MP is

:59:53.:59:56.

going to be recalled over because they voted in a particular way over

:59:57.:00:01.

a particular issue. I mean I made myself unpopular with a few people

:00:02.:00:04.

over particular issues but it is ultimately, 20%, a large amount a

:00:05.:00:09.

number of people but ultimately I think the public want to feel there

:00:10.:00:12.

is a way, if something terrible goes wrong, after about a year, there is

:00:13.:00:15.

nothing that can be done about that MP for five years now that we have

:00:16.:00:20.

fixed parliaments. I'm quite relaxed. Can I say that there are

:00:21.:00:24.

examples in other countries where recall is used in a vexatious way.

:00:25.:00:29.

We are not other countries. We are the UK. We do things differently.

:00:30.:00:34.

From a political manner to unseat particular canned datsds. That's the

:00:35.:00:38.

risk. We have run out of time. - particular candidates. Back to you,

:00:39.:00:48.

Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the

:00:49.:00:51.

London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break.

:00:52.:00:54.

Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead.

:00:55.:01:04.

We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the

:01:05.:01:09.

debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to

:01:10.:01:14.

bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four

:01:15.:01:18.

parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know

:01:19.:01:22.

much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament

:01:23.:01:26.

works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of

:01:27.:01:35.

light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not

:01:36.:01:38.

going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing

:01:39.:01:45.

that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are

:01:46.:01:50.

not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks

:01:51.:01:56.

lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that

:01:57.:01:58.

because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP

:01:59.:02:05.

and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the

:02:06.:02:11.

issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these

:02:12.:02:15.

individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because

:02:16.:02:18.

these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of

:02:19.:02:22.

making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know

:02:23.:02:30.

the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong

:02:31.:02:33.

opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the

:02:34.:02:37.

immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at

:02:38.:02:43.

that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this

:02:44.:02:47.

European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on

:02:48.:02:50.

the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much

:02:51.:02:55.

from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure of these

:02:56.:02:57.

televised debate influences the outcome. One of the reasons that

:02:58.:03:05.

Nigel Farage did well in the debate is that in a two-man debate, each

:03:06.:03:11.

man has as good a chance as the other. If it is four people, one man

:03:12.:03:15.

can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn did well for a man who is not an

:03:16.:03:21.

elected politician yet. At times, 40 came under attack and did not hold

:03:22.:03:24.

the line as well as you would expect. Does that create a perverse

:03:25.:03:28.

incentive for the main parties to agree to a four way debate before

:03:29.:03:33.

the general election? I do not think the David Cameron has nearly as much

:03:34.:03:36.

to worry about from a televised debate in the run-up to the

:03:37.:03:41.

elections than his spin doctors believe. When you put him up against

:03:42.:03:45.

Ed Miliband, and we have not actually seen Ed Miliband in that

:03:46.:03:48.

format, I think he will come off all right. This is an election which the

:03:49.:03:56.

polls would have us believe that the battle for first place is between

:03:57.:04:01.

UKIP and labour. It certainly is. Obviously, it is neck and neck and

:04:02.:04:04.

we will not know until we are closer. And it matters a lot to both

:04:05.:04:10.

of them. If Mr Miliband does not come first, that is not good news

:04:11.:04:13.

for the main opposition at this stage. Except to some extent all of

:04:14.:04:20.

the people will put it to one side and say that this is a bizarre

:04:21.:04:26.

election. A plague on both your houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not

:04:27.:04:29.

clear how much that translates into the next election. It is not too

:04:30.:04:35.

disastrous for Labour. It would be better if they came first. If Mr

:04:36.:04:41.

Miliband comes first, not a problem, but it becomes second and UKIP soars

:04:42.:04:48.

away, what are the consequences I think there is a widespread

:04:49.:04:50.

expectation already at Westminster that UKIP is very likely to come

:04:51.:04:56.

first. If Ed Miliband fails to come first, there will not be a great

:04:57.:04:59.

deal of shock in the West Mr village. Else think what is

:05:00.:05:03.

remarkable about Ed Miliband is that despite consistently poor personal

:05:04.:05:08.

leadership approval ratings, the overall Labour poll is consistently

:05:09.:05:15.

very high. We have seen that budget blip, it seems to have taken us back

:05:16.:05:18.

to where we were before. Leadership is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was

:05:19.:05:23.

miles behind James Callaghan but in the end, it was the party politics

:05:24.:05:30.

that mattered more. If Mr Cameron comes third and the Tories come

:05:31.:05:35.

third, maybe a poor third, is it headless chicken time on the Tory

:05:36.:05:39.

backbenchers? It has often been said that the Tory Party has two modes,

:05:40.:05:42.

complacency and panic. You will see them shift into panic mode. By June,

:05:43.:05:51.

I think. Many of the stories in the sun will be about David Cameron s

:05:52.:05:54.

personal leadership and his grip on the party. There will be pressure on

:05:55.:05:58.

conference by the time that comes around. It is a natural consequence

:05:59.:06:03.

of being the incumbent party. The Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls

:06:04.:06:11.

today. It was widely thought that in the first and second debates, Nigel

:06:12.:06:16.

Farage won both. In retrospect, was the challenge strategy a disaster

:06:17.:06:22.

for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was because he had nothing to lose. But

:06:23.:06:27.

he is lower in the polls than when he started. He has not lost a great

:06:28.:06:33.

deal. The polls were quite often that low. I think it was a good

:06:34.:06:39.

thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in.

:06:40.:06:44.

That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7%

:06:45.:06:50.

in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he

:06:51.:06:53.

knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that

:06:54.:06:57.

have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they

:06:58.:07:03.

do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it

:07:04.:07:08.

support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their

:07:09.:07:11.

MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out

:07:12.:07:19.

for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of

:07:20.:07:21.

the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence

:07:22.:07:26.

of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple

:07:27.:07:29.

of years, his position seems tricky, but maybe that is because

:07:30.:07:33.

Chris Hughton is gone and he was the only plausible candidate. This cable

:07:34.:07:37.

is not getting any younger, to put it delicately. That was not delegate

:07:38.:07:42.

at all! And we have reached a desperate stage where Danny

:07:43.:07:44.

Alexander is talked about as a candidate. That was not delegate

:07:45.:07:48.

either! Maybe he is holding onto power the lack of alternatives. If

:07:49.:07:53.

they ended up with no MEPs at all, and a less than double digits

:07:54.:08:00.

score... With Danny Alexander, it is clear that Scotland, one way or

:08:01.:08:04.

another, will be moving further away. You could not have the leader

:08:05.:08:10.

of a national party be a Scot. But he does not have the following in

:08:11.:08:14.

the party. I'm glad you're liberal attitudes to immigration extends to

:08:15.:08:18.

me. I would not have been here for 43 years. There will be leadership

:08:19.:08:24.

talk after that holes. It has been bubbling in the background, but you

:08:25.:08:28.

have to talk to the grass roots activists. -- after the polls. The

:08:29.:08:35.

grass roots activists are despairing. If things are bad, they

:08:36.:08:38.

lose their network of activists who they need to fight the next

:08:39.:08:42.

election. I think you mean, not that you could have a Scot, but that it

:08:43.:08:45.

would be more difficult to have a Scot from a Scottish constituency.

:08:46.:08:52.

Absolutely. I think a Scottish constituency, so many things will be

:08:53.:08:57.

different. Or to hold the great offices of state. Let's come onto

:08:58.:09:01.

the Crown Prosecution Service is. It is an English institution. Where

:09:02.:09:06.

does the CPS and after losing yet another high-profile case come this

:09:07.:09:11.

time Nigel Evans? They had nine counts against him and they did not

:09:12.:09:14.

win on one. It is obviously very embarrassing. They will have a bit

:09:15.:09:21.

of explain to do but I guess the threshold for bringing these cases

:09:22.:09:24.

is high. There has to be considered at least a 50-50 chance of actually

:09:25.:09:30.

winning the case. We do not know what went on behind the scenes when

:09:31.:09:33.

they weighed up whether to bring the case. Nigel Evans makes an

:09:34.:09:36.

interesting point about whether it is legitimate to bundle together a

:09:37.:09:41.

number of stand-alone relatively weak accusations, and when you put

:09:42.:09:46.

them together to militantly, the CPS uses that to make a case. Is that a

:09:47.:09:52.

legitimate thing to do? He was a high-profile figure, not just

:09:53.:09:56.

because he was a Tory MP. He was the deputy speaker of the House. And yet

:09:57.:10:03.

the CPS are certainly the police, to begin with they did not have that

:10:04.:10:08.

many people to testify against him. And then they trawled for more. You

:10:09.:10:12.

wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he

:10:13.:10:15.

was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and

:10:16.:10:19.

dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation

:10:20.:10:22.

they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let

:10:23.:10:26.

somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they

:10:27.:10:29.

are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange

:10:30.:10:35.

story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation.

:10:36.:10:39.

If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let

:10:40.:10:45.

the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases

:10:46.:10:49.

because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is

:10:50.:10:56.

so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing

:10:57.:10:59.

him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but feeling that they are

:11:00.:11:04.

falling over backwards now in high-profile cases because of their

:11:05.:11:07.

abject and total failure over Jimmy Savile. I think this is exactly the

:11:08.:11:12.

kind of case that happens when you are trying to make a point or redeem

:11:13.:11:16.

a reputation or change a culture. All of these big things. As opposed

:11:17.:11:20.

to what criminal justice is supposed to be about, which is specific

:11:21.:11:23.

crimes and specific evidence matching those crimes. The CPS has

:11:24.:11:28.

no copper a fleet joined in this list of public and situations that

:11:29.:11:31.

has taken a fall over the past five or six years. We have had

:11:32.:11:34.

Parliament, the newspapers, the police will stop I think this is as

:11:35.:11:38.

bad a humiliation as any of those because it is Innocent people

:11:39.:11:41.

suffering. You are the most recent, being a lobby correspondent in

:11:42.:11:44.

Westminster, and we now see on Channel 4 News that basically,

:11:45.:11:49.

Westminster is twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this

:11:50.:11:56.

true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you

:11:57.:12:00.

were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it

:12:01.:12:05.

right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his

:12:06.:12:09.

opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of

:12:10.:12:17.

this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain

:12:18.:12:21.

about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it

:12:22.:12:25.

is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is

:12:26.:12:30.

it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has.

:12:31.:12:34.

Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.

:12:35.:12:38.

But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly

:12:39.:12:44.

changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation

:12:45.:12:50.

and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot

:12:51.:12:54.

going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the

:12:55.:12:58.

BBC In 2013, the public voted for

:12:59.:14:01.

a portrait of At times he's interesting,

:14:02.:14:04.

at times he's very funny, My life is a very happy life

:14:05.:14:12.

and I'm a very happy person. Will you feel nervous

:14:13.:14:20.

when this is unveiled? I suppose being the centre

:14:21.:14:22.

of attention but for ever.

:14:23.:14:26.

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