Browse content similar to 13/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks' | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever | :00:49. | :00:58. | |
we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political | :00:59. | :01:09. | |
commentators. They'll be tweeting throughout the programme using the | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
hashtag bbcsp. In London this week, the council | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
impartial about informing people of local services. | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all. | :01:41. | :01:51. | |
In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first. | :01:54. | :02:03. | |
And that privilege goes to Syed Before that, though, here's a quick | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
reminder of what all the fuss is about. | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73 | :02:22. | :02:21. | |
England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food | :02:52. | :03:01. | |
regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For, | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum. | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
bills are brought down for good Labour believes in reform in Europe, | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain s | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project | :04:56. | :04:57. | |
designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders. | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements. | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power | :05:46. | :05:47. | |
and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed. | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again. | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut, | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our | :06:43. | :06:50. | |
supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market. | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
was a proposal to change powers Why wait? This is based on a series of | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic | :09:21. | :09:22. | |
backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable | :09:23. | :09:31. | |
to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying. | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford, | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country it | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue. | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats, | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
immigration. We have been open to people across the world for | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers, | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits, | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
only this week the office for National said that they did not | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they | :12:50. | :12:51. | |
really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours And | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here | :13:27. | :13:39. | |
today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are | :13:44. | :13:53. | |
wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
countries with similar living standards to us. France, the | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of | :14:04. | :14:16. | |
which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street. | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for | :15:04. | :15:11. | |
more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
it is a mistake and I apologise We make a firm commitment for new EU | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on, | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2 | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits. | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool | :17:08. | :17:16. | |
place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits. | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs. | :18:43. | :18:50. | |
Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With | :19:21. | :19:28. | |
Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
don't admire Putin as a leader. . Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention | :21:13. | :21:20. | |
in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU. | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral. | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria, | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
that the idea of an EU Army was "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European | :22:41. | :22:42. | |
Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
"deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense. | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
the start of the fist world war Remember that Europe was set up to | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth, | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse | :24:17. | :24:23. | |
retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign | :24:28. | :24:29. | |
Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all. | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of .. ? | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
work with our European partners sometimes we work with our | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts The | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes We | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries. | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back. | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP, | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
using it for parliamentary work Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
were the first British political party to have independent audits of | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up. | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply We | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully. | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU s | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe. | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between... | :31:08. | :31:16. | |
Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate He | :31:17. | :31:24. | |
is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future, | :31:58. | :32:05. | |
if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world It | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
Europe more democratic and open But against the rise of Brazil and | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that? | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle, | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious I'd | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
tell you what, can I just say.. Would we be Norway? We would be | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not | :35:47. | :35:54. | |
looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your | :35:58. | :36:07. | |
irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that. | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an | :37:01. | :37:08. | |
inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage. | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes, the Week Ahead. First | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
though, the Sunday Politics where you are. | :37:40. | :37:50. | |
Welcome to the London part of the programme. I'm joined by Tom Brake, | :37:51. | :37:58. | |
the Liberal Democrat MP for Carl Scholten and... Welcome to you both. | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
Later, we will be looking at the councils which some claim are making | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
partial claims in their taxpayer funded newspapers. Three years after | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
new guidelines were introduced. First, secret intelligence reports | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
obtained by BBC London have revealed that some police officers in the | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
flying squad were suspected of plotting to kidnap the partner of a | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
cash van driver to obtain a ?50 000 ransom. According to the documents, | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
a group of London-based officers hatched the alleged plot in the | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
mid-1990s. Sources have told the BBC that the reports were part of a | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
lorry-load of documents thought to have been shredded by the Met. Kate, | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
what do you make of this? With a quick thought, what can the Met to | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
do to restore faith or confidence? Many of these things, of course our | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
historic. Yes, they are. But it does not mean that we cannot try to get | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
to the bottom of it. I think the most worrying thing was the fact | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
that somebody gave permission for all those documents to be shredded | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
and we do not know where the others are. I'd hope they can find them. | :39:07. | :39:14. | |
Most people see the police in the way they see them around their | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
communities. The thing that worries me most about what is happening in | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
the police these days is not just that it is a numbers game, because | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
the numbers, we can argue about whether they have gone up or down, | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
but it is about how they are being used. In my own borough, the | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
commanders do not have much say in how they want to police. We have | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
lost a lot of our community policing, which did a lot of good | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
work in making people feel that the police officer they saw a lot of | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
good work in making people feel that the police officer they saw around | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
the area, they knew him. More recently, that has changed and it is | :39:48. | :39:49. | |
more centralised. The Commissioner coming in, with all the problems | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
that the meat -- the Met had faced, it seems to want to have a hands-on | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
attitude towards London. Do not think you can do that with | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
communities that are different. Good of the Commissioner and senior | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
police officers be excused for saying that this is something that | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
happened a long time ago and, yes, we will deal with it but it is not | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
the picture now? Clearly, these are things that happened a long time ago | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
and there have been measures taken which should ensure that they do not | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
happen again. For instance, the College of policing is set up and is | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
a code of ethics that officers will have to follow. There are is a | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
public enquiry underway into the issue of undercover officers. There | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
is action being taken. They do not think the scope for complacency One | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
of the areas that Kate has referred to, where I think you could reduce | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
the risk of these sorts of things happening, is if more borough is in | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
London were to adopt the model that Sutton has adopted, of a partnership | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
between the local police and the local authority where they have | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
pooled resources to tackle crime. That means that they are working | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
more cooperatively together and think the risk of the police going | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
off and doing something by themselves is reduced as a result. | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
And that happens a lot in my borough, in the north, where we have | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
big companies. Many of the big employers are set up their own | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
employers groups and are actually putting extra money into trying to | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
get the environment improved and better policed. It is not all doom | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
and gloom but obviously these things make people feel worried and we need | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
to get to the bottom of it. Moving on, the mayor announced another | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
scheme this week to build more housing. If regressed, London | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
Housing bank would provide loans to developers to speed up development | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
is that have had planning permission but are taking too long to complete. | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
Demand for housing in London is huge but across the city there of sites | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
which are standing empty despite planning permission having already | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
been granted. City Hall estimates it could be as many as 200,000 | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
potential homes which have yet to be built. This week, Boris Johnson | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
announced a ?200 million plan to change that. We are launching a new | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
housing bank which aims to give money, on a short-term basis, up to | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
ten years, to developers, to build homes now on the later phases of big | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
schemes. The new housing would be let to Londoners at below the market | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
rate. After ten years, the homes would be sold and the initial loan | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
that would be repaid to City Hall. With a population in London due to | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
increased by 20%, housing will become even more of a priority. And | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
it will take more than this one scheme to fix the problem. | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
Let's talk to the Chief Executive of shelter. What do you think of that | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
idea? It is a start. It is only one of the things that needs to happen. | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
It is not going to change the nature of the crisis that is facing many | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
Londoners. Prices are going up, as R.N. Is. With the best will in the | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
world, we are only building about 6000 of the 13,000 affordable homes | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
we need this year. Implicit is this -- in this is that developers do not | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
have the money. Are the banks lending to them? It is an | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
interesting question and I think developers should be answering that | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
question and looking at how they can use the land they have better to get | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
that out. There's also the question of affordability. One of the most | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
used words in the endless language, some of these properties are not | :43:40. | :43:41. | |
going to be affordable to many Londoners. When you hear that the | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
offer is to try to get developers to build them and then, for ten years, | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
they will be rented at below market rent. What do you make of that? In | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
some areas, that is still a lot of money. I think the problem is that | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
for ten years, what is going to happen to the House and the people | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
in that house? There are still questions. This is a good start but | :44:04. | :44:14. | |
it is likely piecemeal. We need bigger on a grander schemes. The | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
idea of the mere using a limited amount of money, when there are | :44:19. | :44:26. | |
banks there to be doing it, shouldn't the mayor be able to? -- | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
the idea of the mayor. That is the height of a political debate. But at | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
the moment, between the both parties. There are a lot of powers | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
that he could use to force these issues and that is what we need to | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
see. What kind of thing? We could begin to ask questions about putting | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
powers in place, about why land is left empty for so long. There are | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
options around taxation. Those are issues which the political parties | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
are discussing at the moment and we would like to see them pushed. We | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
would like to see the mayor use all of his powers. Would that be more | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
effective? We need to see investment, absolutely, which makes | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
it affordable and ensures that it is affordable. And we need the | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
political will to drive this element forward. There is land available and | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
we should be using it. Tom Brake, why should the mere or City Hall the | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
needing to provide this kind of money on a loan basis? -- mayor | :45:27. | :45:36. | |
Given the pressure on housing in London we need as wide a range of | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
initiatives as possible. When will we see them? I would like to see the | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
idea of community trusts where the land would be held separately in a | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
trust. You would then be able to build properties at a much lower | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
rate because people would not be taking in the value of the land | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
when they make the purchase. We also need to see schemes, perhaps that | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
covenant properties - I mean my worry here as was outlined is that | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
in ten years' time, if those properties simply go for sale, there | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
is no chance the tennants in the properties will be able to buy them. | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
You need to put a covenant on those flats so, when they get passed on, | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
if someone moves out, they get passed on to someone who equally | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
needs affordable housing, rather than losing that to the bulk of | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
affordable housing available in London. Do you go along with that? | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
Very many of my constituents will not benefit in the slightest from an | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
awful lot of the building going on noement, particularly along the | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
riverside, where although there is a small percentage going to be | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
affordable, it is not, as you have said "affordable" to many, many of | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
them. I would like to see us go back to really basics, which was local | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
authorities being able to build more what are genuine council housing. | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
Being able to borrow. Some are doing that. A few councils are doing a | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
small amount of that. That's what we need. We also need to get to a | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
situation where, when places are built, as you say, they are not then | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
able to be sold on. I don't think we are ever going stop the right-to-buy | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
but for example n my area I have a lot of Co-Opes, they cannot be sold | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
on. That makes a difference. And you agree with, that I don't think you | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
are agreeing with the borrowing power. The Government allows local | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
authorities to borrow a little bit, we would argue it could let them | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
bore yes more. We know that there is austerity, we know that the need to | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
to control spending, but surely when so many people are out there saying | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
- you have to take this step, why is this not happening? Well, I think | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
there are initiatives underway, for instance with the right-to-buy local | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
authorities are the in position to build new homes from the money they | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
have raised from selling properties. That's something I would want to | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
encourage local authorities to do. In London, for instance, I think the | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
mayor could do more in terms of releasing land that he has or the | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
GLA and Transport for London, releasing land for building | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
affordable homes and the mayor in relation to some of the larger | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
projects, around Battersea power station, for instance, could be | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
demanding a higher percentage of affordable homes. We'll make a | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
reference to that later. I'm sorry to can you cut you short. | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
Three years ago the coalition government introduced guidelines for | :48:26. | :48:27. | |
council-run newspapers and magazines, then it accused some | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
authorities of using publications to put out political propaganda. Now, | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
it's still accusing some councils of doing that as well. | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
Local authorities are publishing magazines full of propaganda. Not | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
far off Soviet Russia's notorious paper. At least according to the | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
government. In 2011 they tried introducing a voluntary code of | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
practice but ministers say it is being ignored by some authorities. | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
Two weeks ago they wrote to six of them, threatening them ultimately | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
with legal action. Five of the six are in London. Either there is | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
unfair competition, using tax payers' money, for example, a weekly | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
newspaper that takes on and makes it very difficult for the freedom of | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
independent press or if there is political prop began darks tax | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
payers' money should not be used for that. Dobb propaganda. We asked the | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
five councils involved for an interview but they declined. They | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
pointed out the magazines were popular with local residents and in | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
some cases made the local authority money from advertising. Some | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
disputed whether they breached government outlines. | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
In Hammersmith and Fulham the council's fortnightly H F news had | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
been criticised by a local commercial newspaper and others and | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
the council replaced it with this magazine but according to the local | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
Labour Party, the council's publication takes a stance on social | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
issues, here it says the local Charing Cross Hospital's future is | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
secured but Labour were out on the streets this week defending the | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
hospital against what it calls the effective closure. We are asking | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
people to stand with us to save the hospital. In actual fact it would be | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
13% would be less. The day after it was announced they were going to do | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
that a glossy magazine, at ?20, 00 of public money, went to every | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
household in the borough splashed with the headline -- Charing Cross | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
Hospital saved. It is not true. Labour claim the council magazine | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
has been used as an express to telephone residents in hair homes | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
and push the one-sided view of another council policy. Council tax | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
w no mention of what Labour says is the other half of the story, the | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
introduction of over 600 new stealth taxes. | :50:43. | :50:44. | |
Residents were called at home and asked: "Did you receive a companiy | :50:45. | :50:52. | |
of Your magazine on Friday?" Did you find the Your mg zeen informative, | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
do you agree with the council's proposal to cut council tax again by | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
3% next year? Someone sitting at home, cooking | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
their tea. They are busy, the phone rings, you have a council official | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
on the line asking you about a one-sided Conservative poll sane the | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
other side is ?64 million of stealth taxes, never mentioned at all. They | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
were specifically asking questions designed to give a false impression | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
of the Conservative administration's record and to get it into people's | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
consciousness. What exactly was going on here? Sunday Politics asked | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
a leading polling company. There has been circumstances, in America | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
largely, of where people have done things called push polls where | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
really they are pretending to do a poll but their ultimate aim has fwon | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
push out negative propaganda about their opponents. -- aim has been to | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
push out. This isn't the same but is the main aim of this to put out a | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
message or to get results? It is almost impossible to say. But what | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
is clear is that despite Government guidelines coming in three years | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
ago, the controversy surrounding local government publicity remains. | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
I'm joined by the Conservative deputy leader of Hammersmith and | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
Fulham Council, Greg Smith to respond to am soft things we heard | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
there. Welcome. Fist of, let's take that example about a hospital. You | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
say saved or this says saved when we know it is losing most of its floor | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
space and services are going. Were you, are you using taxpayer funded | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
publications for misleading information? We have halved | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
communication spending since 20002346 Hammersmith and full. What | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
that particular example, we think it is very important to pet let our | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
residents know what we are doing on their behalf. -- to let our | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
residents know. Councils don't run the NHS. We have no control over | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
hospitals but there was a proposal put down by NHS London essentially | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
close Charing Cross Hospital instead of waving placards we got in front | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
of the Secretary of State, we got in front of the officials at the NHS | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
and we got them to a position where there will still be a hospital on | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
that site. In fact ?100 million rebuild of the site. There will | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
still be emergency functions there, there will still be specialist | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
cancer services and other services. There will still be a hospital | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
serving our residents on that site. What about the second main claim | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
there in the film, you are getting council people to ring people up | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
afterwards and asking them that third question - do you or don't you | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
approve of or like our 3% cut in council tax. I looked into that It | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
wasn't something the council Z the people who distributed the quarterly | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
magazine do a poll to check their guys haven't been chucking them in | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
the bin and people have received their magazine. It was them, was it? | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
They phoned up 100 people. 100 people out of a population of | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
183,500 and asked them if they had their magazine. They put that | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
additional question N I don't even know what the result of that poll | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
was. -- that additional question in. What on earth is it o to do with | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
them? They said - do you want to put an extra question in, we thought, | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
why not, we have not seen the results. But you were using that | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
opportunity - we described it as push polling, but you were using it | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
as an opportunity to remind those people you had cut council tax 00 | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
people were phoned it was not a taxpayer-funded exercise it was | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
something they did as a standard practice. Do you think it is right, | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
or do you do it as well, do you accept that you use council | :54:22. | :54:29. | |
publications, your new quarterly magazine, to put the Conservative | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
gloss on there. Every organisation wants to at the time people it | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
serves, whether it is a council serving residents or a business | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
serving customers, what they are doing. We fully comply with the new | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
code the government has brought in. But this is nothing new. The Labour | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
Party when they ran Hammersmith and Fulham produced a ?500,000 glossy | :54:50. | :54:56. | |
magazine a year called HFM. Our magazine don't cost the tax payers a | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
penny because the advertisers going... This was February 2006 a | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
couple of months before the local elections. Kate Hoey, does everyone | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
do it? Every council wants to get information out. If it is run by a | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
particular political party, good things, then, they feel will go to | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
their party. Lambeth, I think, did used to do some pretty dreadful prop | :55:21. | :55:27. | |
began da. Now I'm quite -- propaganda. Now I'm happy and | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
relaxed. We have a monthly magazine which is really about information. | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
It is not party political. And actually there are a lot of people | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
in my constituency who aren't on emain don't get communications in a | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
way that perhaps some of us would. -- aren't on e-mail. | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
A magazine about telling them what is happening can be useful. I think | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
all political parties need to be careful but ultimately the public | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
aren't stupid. They know when they are being told something. If that's | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
the case, why on earth does the government feel it wants to | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
interfere or go to six councils and say - we don't like the way you said | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
that or this document you are proproducing? I don't understand t | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
one of the councils Greenwich, produces a weekly newspaper. -- | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
understand it... People people informed, admirable. I would be | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
surprised if there was enough information to proindividual a | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
weekly newspaper. The trouble is, there is a risk that the content of | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
that, because there isn't enough on a weekly basis to provide conthaent | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
is factual, the content -- conthaent is factual. It is likely to be more | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
political spin than it is useful information for the residents My | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
borough used to put out different leaflets about different things if | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
you add up the cost of those, if you do one properly produced monthly one | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
t can save money. I'm very relaxed about it, but it does have to be | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
carefully looked at. I can understanden, at certain times, | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
coming up to elections-- I can understand. I suspect over the next | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
few years most council also move towards social media and delivering | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
information by e-mail. A lot of people don't get e-mail. Will you | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
keep this going? We have stripped out the cost. Our publications are | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
funded by advertising and at the same time we have managed to cut | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
council tax by 20% over eight years. And put up a few extra. That's a | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
discussion for another time. The rest of the political news in 6 | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
Seconds. A A man convicted of links with the | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
Mafia in Italy has been released on bail after being re-arrested. He was | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
detained in west London after a fresh European arrest warrant was | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
received from Italy. He was allowed to stay in the UK after winning a | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
fist extradition battle last month. -- a first. | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
Newham council refunded up 347, 00 to almost 500 drivers after parking | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
tickets were illegally issued. Controversy over the plans for the | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
redevelopment, phase 3 of the batter Battersea Power Station were | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
revealed. 1300 homes will be created but 03 | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
will be affordable. Following the rows I nafgs Culture | :58:21. | :58:29. | |
Secretary, Maria Miller d following the resignation -- -- following the | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
resignation of Culture Secretary, Maria Miller, Zac Goldsmith wants to | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
give constituents the power of recalling their MP. | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
And Tom Brake, will you be pushing for what Zac Goldsmith wants?. It is | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
a Liberal Democrat commitment in our manifesto that we'll deliver recall. | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
It is a coalition agreement that we will - it is in the coalition | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
agreement that we'll deliver recall. There is a Government desire to do | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
that. When? We have already published a draft bi. It is being | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
consulted on. There are two triggers in the bill. The first trigger would | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
be if a Member of Parliament received a prison sentence or a | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
custodial sentence of 12 months or less, automatically that would | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
trigger a petition that their constituents could sign and the | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
second trigger, a bit more complex, would be a trigger of - if the | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
Member of Parliament had committed serious wrong-doing, then also if | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
the standards committee agreed to that and if the House agreed to it, | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
then that could also be... I don't think actually it is as good, the | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
bill they are putting and discussing which Zac Goldsmith's bill, which | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
I'm a supporter of. I think there needs to be a mechanism. He is | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
saying you need 20% of people within eight weeks would have to sign a | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
petition. That's right. Because that avoids it just being - no MP is | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
going to be recalled over because they voted in a particular way over | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
a particular issue. I mean I made myself unpopular with a few people | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
over particular issues but it is ultimately, 20%, a large amount a | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
number of people but ultimately I think the public want to feel there | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
is a way, if something terrible goes wrong, after about a year, there is | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
nothing that can be done about that MP for five years now that we have | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
fixed parliaments. I'm quite relaxed. Can I say that there are | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
examples in other countries where recall is used in a vexatious way. | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
We are not other countries. We are the UK. We do things differently. | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
From a political manner to unseat particular canned datsds. That's the | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
risk. We have run out of time. - particular candidates. Back to you, | :00:39. | :00:48. | |
Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead. | :00:55. | :01:04. | |
We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of | :01:27. | :01:35. | |
light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know | :02:23. | :02:30. | |
the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure of these | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
televised debate influences the outcome. One of the reasons that | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
Nigel Farage did well in the debate is that in a two-man debate, each | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
man has as good a chance as the other. If it is four people, one man | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn did well for a man who is not an | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
elected politician yet. At times, 40 came under attack and did not hold | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
the line as well as you would expect. Does that create a perverse | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
incentive for the main parties to agree to a four way debate before | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
the general election? I do not think the David Cameron has nearly as much | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
to worry about from a televised debate in the run-up to the | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
elections than his spin doctors believe. When you put him up against | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
Ed Miliband, and we have not actually seen Ed Miliband in that | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
format, I think he will come off all right. This is an election which the | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
polls would have us believe that the battle for first place is between | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
UKIP and labour. It certainly is. Obviously, it is neck and neck and | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
we will not know until we are closer. And it matters a lot to both | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
of them. If Mr Miliband does not come first, that is not good news | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
for the main opposition at this stage. Except to some extent all of | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
the people will put it to one side and say that this is a bizarre | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
election. A plague on both your houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
clear how much that translates into the next election. It is not too | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
disastrous for Labour. It would be better if they came first. If Mr | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
Miliband comes first, not a problem, but it becomes second and UKIP soars | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
away, what are the consequences I think there is a widespread | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
expectation already at Westminster that UKIP is very likely to come | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
first. If Ed Miliband fails to come first, there will not be a great | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
deal of shock in the West Mr village. Else think what is | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
remarkable about Ed Miliband is that despite consistently poor personal | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
leadership approval ratings, the overall Labour poll is consistently | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
very high. We have seen that budget blip, it seems to have taken us back | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
to where we were before. Leadership is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
miles behind James Callaghan but in the end, it was the party politics | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
that mattered more. If Mr Cameron comes third and the Tories come | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
third, maybe a poor third, is it headless chicken time on the Tory | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
backbenchers? It has often been said that the Tory Party has two modes, | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
complacency and panic. You will see them shift into panic mode. By June, | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
I think. Many of the stories in the sun will be about David Cameron s | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
personal leadership and his grip on the party. There will be pressure on | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
conference by the time that comes around. It is a natural consequence | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
of being the incumbent party. The Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
today. It was widely thought that in the first and second debates, Nigel | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
Farage won both. In retrospect, was the challenge strategy a disaster | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was because he had nothing to lose. But | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
he is lower in the polls than when he started. He has not lost a great | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
deal. The polls were quite often that low. I think it was a good | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in. | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7% | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out | :07:12. | :07:19. | |
for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
of years, his position seems tricky, but maybe that is because | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
Chris Hughton is gone and he was the only plausible candidate. This cable | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
is not getting any younger, to put it delicately. That was not delegate | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
at all! And we have reached a desperate stage where Danny | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
Alexander is talked about as a candidate. That was not delegate | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
either! Maybe he is holding onto power the lack of alternatives. If | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
they ended up with no MEPs at all, and a less than double digits | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
score... With Danny Alexander, it is clear that Scotland, one way or | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
another, will be moving further away. You could not have the leader | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
of a national party be a Scot. But he does not have the following in | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
the party. I'm glad you're liberal attitudes to immigration extends to | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
me. I would not have been here for 43 years. There will be leadership | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
talk after that holes. It has been bubbling in the background, but you | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
have to talk to the grass roots activists. -- after the polls. The | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
grass roots activists are despairing. If things are bad, they | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
lose their network of activists who they need to fight the next | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
election. I think you mean, not that you could have a Scot, but that it | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
would be more difficult to have a Scot from a Scottish constituency. | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
Absolutely. I think a Scottish constituency, so many things will be | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
different. Or to hold the great offices of state. Let's come onto | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
the Crown Prosecution Service is. It is an English institution. Where | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
does the CPS and after losing yet another high-profile case come this | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
time Nigel Evans? They had nine counts against him and they did not | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
win on one. It is obviously very embarrassing. They will have a bit | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
of explain to do but I guess the threshold for bringing these cases | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
is high. There has to be considered at least a 50-50 chance of actually | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
winning the case. We do not know what went on behind the scenes when | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
they weighed up whether to bring the case. Nigel Evans makes an | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
interesting point about whether it is legitimate to bundle together a | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
number of stand-alone relatively weak accusations, and when you put | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
them together to militantly, the CPS uses that to make a case. Is that a | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
legitimate thing to do? He was a high-profile figure, not just | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
because he was a Tory MP. He was the deputy speaker of the House. And yet | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
the CPS are certainly the police, to begin with they did not have that | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
many people to testify against him. And then they trawled for more. You | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation. | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but feeling that they are | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
falling over backwards now in high-profile cases because of their | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
abject and total failure over Jimmy Savile. I think this is exactly the | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
kind of case that happens when you are trying to make a point or redeem | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
a reputation or change a culture. All of these big things. As opposed | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
to what criminal justice is supposed to be about, which is specific | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
crimes and specific evidence matching those crimes. The CPS has | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
no copper a fleet joined in this list of public and situations that | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
has taken a fall over the past five or six years. We have had | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
Parliament, the newspapers, the police will stop I think this is as | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
bad a humiliation as any of those because it is Innocent people | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
suffering. You are the most recent, being a lobby correspondent in | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
Westminster, and we now see on Channel 4 News that basically, | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
Westminster is twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of | :12:10. | :12:17. | |
this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has. | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals. | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
BBC In 2013, the public voted for | :12:59. | :14:01. | |
a portrait of At times he's interesting, | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
at times he's very funny, My life is a very happy life | :14:05. | :14:12. | |
and I'm a very happy person. Will you feel nervous | :14:13. | :14:20. | |
when this is unveiled? I suppose being the centre | :14:21. | :14:22. | |
of attention but for ever. | :14:23. | :14:26. |