08/06/2014 Sunday Politics London

David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers

over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.

We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.

Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist

But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?

Here's to the quarter of a million votes.

And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with

a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.

Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?

And with me our panel of top political journalists,

who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme

This morning's political news is dominated

by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and

The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior

Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling

The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of

investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham,

where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken

Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office

was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.

He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.

In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,

"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people

Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the

An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.

Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's

Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning,

this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.

There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,

which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.

There will be discipline in the Government.

The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.

The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that's

put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.

Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she

has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael

Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during

13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an

act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website

and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of

conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a

leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a

vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In

the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.

She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is

interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse

differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is

tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.

Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the

politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is

deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but

replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in

ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that

ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the

Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with

Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick

Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and

criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the

Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is

fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What

separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The

view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic

extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is

criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour

government introduced to do with the previous Labour government

introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people

and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous

home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in

the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has

used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the

swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed

those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove

would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech

the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2011

when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists

warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling.

Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

equality between boys and girls, and there is an unofficial policy of

gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools

were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They

were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an

academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within

Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school

standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we

get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking

to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme

which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and

fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a

desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an

increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr

Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for

gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in

since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We

note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected

head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and

what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about

fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of

schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You

mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence

for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group

dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about

schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in

Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of

multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic

schools. I will say to you this morning that Birmingham City

Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party, the Department for Education were

all involved in this conversation. In 2010, ministers were warned about

potential radicalisation of schools and they fell to act. We need to

know why, for years on, they allowed this situation to exacerbate. When

you look at the record of labour and this government 's record, there are

plenty of examples where both of you fail to act. Would it not be better

to drop the party politics and get together to confront this problem

for the sake of the children? There are a number of reports going on in

Birmingham. Some are led by the city council, some by the Department for

Education. Labour MPs this morning have come forward with the Bishop of

Birmingham talking about faith in schools. If you have a minister

failing to do their job, if you have a minister being given warnings in

2010 and failing to act on them for four years, the opposition has a

role to hold the executive to account. This is about the safety

and standards of teaching for pupils in Birmingham schools. It is about a

great education for these young people so they can succeed in a

modern, multicultural Britain. Do you agree with your Shadow Cabinet

colleague, Rachel Reeves, that Labour' as core voters are

abandoning the party? She was building on what Ed said the day

after the elections in Berwick. We have to make sure those communities

who we historically represent regard Labour as having a successful

message for them. I am passionate about making sure we have great

vocational and technical education, the great academic education in our

schools. If we have more work to do to get people to the polling

booths, we must do that. We must with listen to what she says.

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping the former PM of Luxembourg

- named by one newspaper as 'the most dangerous man in Europe'

because of his federalist views - from becoming the next president

Mr Cameron has reportedly described Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from

the 80s who cannot solve the problems of the next five years'.

But with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr

Juncker, it's not a dead cert that Mr Cameron can stop his appointment.

This is what he had to say at the G7 summit earlier this week:

It is important that we have people running the institutions of Europe

who understand the need for change and reform. I would argue that view

is widely shared amongst other heads of government and heads of state in

the European Union. I am clear what I want to achieve for Britain's

future, to secure Britain's placed in a reformed European Union and I

have a strategy for delivering that, a strategy for dealing with an

issue which I think if we walk away from it would see Britain drift

towards the exits. We've been joined from Berlin

by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is a senior figure in the EPP - that's

the party backing Mr Juncker. He's also Chairman of the Union

of European Federalists. And in our Newcastle newsroom is

the former Conservative MEP Martin Callanan who until last month led

the European Conservatives and Reformists group in Brussels.

Welcome to you both. The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary,

they don't want Mr Junker, the new Italian Prime Minister doesn't look

keen either, should he bow out gracefully? First of all, he wants

to have Mr Junker but he wants to have his conditions. Will he become

president of the European Council, a high representative? It is a

discussion to be had in the next three or four weeks until the

European Parliament can elect the president of the European Council

after the proposal of the European Council, which has to be done after

consultation with the Parliament in the light of the European elections

and by a majority vote. If not Mr Junker, then who? There are many

available candidates, I am not going to mention them in front of someone

so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us one name that you would prefer? The

prime Minister of Sweden, Christine Lagarde, the minister from

Lithuania, these are people who have a record of old reform. Junker is

the ultimate Europe insider. We need radical inform. We need to respond

to the message the electorate gave us in the elections -- radical

reform. Junker said he had to lie in public, he allowed the security

services to conduct a dirty tricks campaign against his opponent. This

is not who we want leading the European Commission. Elmar Brok,

since the European voters have sent a message to the parliament that

they are not happy with the status quo, why would you want a man who is

synonymous with the status quo? First of all what Martin has said is

wrong. He has not done tricks against his opponents. He was very

clear on that. He is also the man who was always for changes. He made

dramatic changes as head of the Euro group, came out of the economic

crisis which was a result of the financial crisis, made politics

possible, to stop this incredible financial sector influence of our

states. I believe he is a man who works on the programme which Mrs

Merkel and others have decided in Dublin, for the reform of the

European Union, less government. But we need Europe more and he is not a

man from the 80s. He is a man of this century and in this century he

made his own policy. He is the winner of the European elections, he

has a majority will stop Mrs LANguard is not running because she

knows she will not get the majority in the European Parliament. --

Christine Lagarde is not running. It is the Council of minister is that

decides. No, the European Parliament has the final word. The European

Council can make a proposal by majority in the light of the

European elections after consultation with the European

Parliament. The council cannot get a candidate against the will of the

European Parliament. Mr Junker has a majority in the European Parliament.

Theoretically he is right, the Parliament has do vote on the

candidates proposed by the council. I want to challenge the view that

somehow he won the European elections. There is no provision for

Jean Claude Junker to stand in the elections. He is saying that the EEP

party got the most number of seats in the Parliament but none of the

electorate knew they were taking part in this election. How many

people who voted Labour in the United Kingdom realised that their

vote would count towards a German socialist to be a candidate for the

commission of presidency is a nonsensical proposal. The elections

were 28 individual elections with hundreds of parties across Europe.

To try to claim there is a democratic mandate for somebody

nobody has heard from Luxembourg to take over the commission is a

nonsense. People should know him, if I should say that ironically.

Newspapers talking about members of the family of his wife with Nazi

links... What is the answer to Martin Callinan's point? I think it

is clear that British Conservatives have no candidate because they are

not a broad European family, they have not impacted on the selection

of top candidates but it is a form of isolation of the British Tory

Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr Junker is appointed it could lead to

Britain drifting towards the EU exit, is that credible? Is it

melodramatic? It is true that we want to renegotiate the

relationship. We want some serious reform in Europe so the people who

vote in a referendum will be able to vote to stay in if that is what they

want. We need a bold reformer, somebody prepared to engage. That is

not anti the interests of the UK. We need to recognise there is a problem

with public perception of the European Union. Elmar Brok is proud

to be one of the last bastions of federalism that that is not where

most of the public opinion is in Europe. I understand why he wants

his man installed but we need to take into account the message of the

letter -- the electorate. 25% of the publishing of France were prepared

to vote for an openly racist party. We can't just ignore the signal that

the electorate were sending us. If enthusiasm for federalism was at an

all-time low, it would be a slap in the face for the voters of Europe to

have a federalist as the president, would it not? 70, 80% of the members

of the European Parliament, selected by their people, are pro-Europeans.

These are the winners of the European elections. Even in France,

a majority of voters have voted pro-European and that should be

clear, not to make this a populist thing which is not only to do with

Europe. And we want to have a Europe which is strong, the member states

should do their things. We do not want to have a European centralism,

we do not want a European state. This is not at stake. Let's talk

about the question of better governance, let's talk about what

was wrong in the past, we have to become better, to change our

programme in that question. That should be the way we lead to come to

positive results. Thank you for that. Before we go, there is a

British commissioner that needs to be appointed to Brussels, do you

like the sound of that? These are matters for the Prime Minister, I am

sure he has many excellent candidates. Do you like the sound of

it? Like previous British commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil

clinic, I have just lost an election -- Neil Kinnock for the everybody

who is asked would serve, I'm sure. Just days ago UKIP were celebrating

topping the poll in the European They're claiming they'd have had two

more MEPs and the Greens two fewer had another

party not confused the electorate. What's more UKIP say it's

the fault of the body which was set up to oversee

elections - the Electoral Commission This is a party celebrating success

at the European elections. They didn't win a single MEP but

nationally polled 250,000 votes. They are an independence from

Europe, mostly people who were once in UKIP, and that is rather the

point. They may look like capers, drink like capers, sound like capers

-- -- sound like kippers, but they are not. The name and the logo were

displayed on this banner when the party launched its campaign. UKIP

suggest the look, the wording and the inclusion of UK in now confused

voters, and are looking at rewriting such a wrong. The way that seats are

allocated in a European election under a proportional representation

system is using this formula. It was invented by a Belgian mathematician

in 1878 and it is essentially this. When all of the votes have been

tallied up, the one with the most seats gets the first MEPC in a

region. The others are allocated using votes cast divided by the

number of seats gained plus one -- first MEP seat in a region. UKIP

were concerned with South West and London. There they say, when the

last MEP seats were being allocated, if everyone who had voted for an

independence from Europe had meant to vote for UKIP and you tallied

their votes up, and added them to UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in

each region and the greens would have lost them. Whether you can

prove that voters did that by mistake is a very different matter.

UKIP may have to just chalk it up to experience. It has happened before,

back in the European elections of 1994. Then in England under the

first past the post system. This man, Richard Huggett, decided to

stand as a little Democrat and polled a significant number of

votes. The Liberal Democrat candidate at the time is now an MP.

Many people voted and afterwards realised that they had bubbly voted

for -- probably voted for a little Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as

they had been intending to do -- bubbly voted for a literal Democrat

-- probably voted. Mr Sanders got some consolation. In

1998, laws came into rule on so-called spoiler tactics and the

Electoral Commission was established. The Electoral

Commission are based on the seventh floor of this building and they did

look into this issue prior to voting. They have given us a

statement that reveals the conclusion they came to, part of

which says, we decided that the name of the party, and its description

are sufficiently different to those registered by the UK Independence

Party, UKIP, to mean, in our opinion, that voters were not likely

to be confused if they appeared on the same ballot paper. Pretty

conclusive stuff. Back at the pub, were an independence from Europe

just being crafty, or do UKIP need to wake up and smell the flowers? We

attack them in all areas. An independent study for Anglo

Netherlands because I was involved in the Dutch -- with the Dutch

member of Parliament and the description was UK Independence now,

nobody has a monopoly on the word independence. I have been fighting

for independence since I started in 1994, before I joined UKIP. The

party tell me they will stand again at the general election next year.

The ironies not lost on them or the major parties of UKIP complaining

that a smaller party has been taking votes of them.

Joining me now to discuss this story is Gawain Towler.

He's the UKIP candidate for the South West region, who failed to get

And in our Bristol studios is the victorious Green MEP for

How many of the 23,000 votes that were cast for the Independence party

were meant for you? Impossible to tell. I want to congratulate Molly

for getting elected. They are the breaks. I do not think there is a

purpose in complaining about boats that are cast. Do you think you

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look at the

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look boats for parties

people have not heard of and those with a long tradition that people

have heard of. I do not think there is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled

ballot papers, the amount of people who had voted at the top and the

bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I

want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is

said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange

for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than

me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally

been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been

voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected

anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What

would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for

her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions

to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat

for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share

of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If

he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could

stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said

we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and

that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the

Sunday Politics, where you were well represented. Was it a problem for

UKIP in other parts of the country? Only in London. What do you think

happened there? Very much the same. I do not think there is any doubt,

the number of people we have had getting in touch saying, I am really

sorry, I made a mess, that they voted for the wrong party. They are

the breaks. Politics is politics. What I would like to see and what is

reasonable, and I hope Molly would agree, there needs to be a reform -

a serious reform of the Electoral Commission. There is no appeal

process. They say it is not confusing. Lets see if she thinks

that. I make it a policy never to agree with UKIP. What is important

to note, if you look at the votes and the way the votes fell out and

the seats fell out in the south-west, it is difficult for an

Electoral Commission to turn boats into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote

and 33% of the seats. For them, the system worked very well in the

south-west. Nationally, Greens did not get represented as the vote

share would require. That is because you get very small number of seats

in the different regions and you have to reach a high threshold. The

Green Party has a right to complain about the level of seats we have

ended up with. White rapper you have complaints about the Electoral

Commission? We need to move to a proportional system for elections

generally. If we poll around 7%, 8%, we should be looking at having 30,

40 seats in the national legislature. We need to consider

proportional representation for national elections. Do you accept

the ballot paper may have confused some people? I think what happened

is that some people in UKIP were very worried. Worried about the

rightward move of UKIP and the authoritarian leadership of Nigel

Farage. He set up a separate party. That is what happens in politics,

particularly when parties are led by demagogues and are not focused on

Democratic policy. Do you have any legal redress to this? None

whatsoever. Have you had legal advice? I am told there is no

redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly does not agree with UKIP on anything

so, if we say the sun rises in the morning, she probably will disagree

with that. If, at the next election, there is a party called the Grown

Party, will she then complain? There needs to be some level of

accountability and, without that, one wonders what is going on. We

have an organisation with enormous and important power and influence

which is setup to stop this of thing going on. It has failed. Not has it

has failed. Not present served in Tower Hamlets and there have been

massive problems with postal votes. It is failing on almost everything

it is supposed to do. Just to go back for a final point from Molly.

Should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of the Electoral

Commission? You need to have an authoritative body that makes

decisions in this area and we have the Electoral Commission. It is

about being sore losers on the part of UKIP. I am delighted to represent

people in the South West. Should there be a right of appeal or not?

You need an authoritative body and the Electoral Commission is that. I

do not think it should have a right to appeal.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be discussing extremism

in schools and rumours of a reshuffle in the Week Ahead.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

Welcome to the London part of the programme. I am joined for the

duration of the show by Meg Hillier and by the Conservative MP for

Enfield North. Last year he spent more time in tow harbour and

Dagenham. Has Boris Johnson turned his back on the outer suburbs and

become a zone one mayor? The man has called for a 10% increase in council

tax will be owners of empty homes. He said he was urging London

boroughs to back up tax on property owners who allow homes to stand

empty for more than a year. He praised Camden Council for trying to

deal with their spiralling number of empty homes. This 1000% council tax

is never going to happen, it is typical, headline grabbing Boris

Johnson. In Camden, they had the most automatic increase in long-term

rental homes. They have gone for a 150% increase. Would you welcome mat

from a council where you are in London? -- welcome that. I think I

would. It does nobody any good for property to lie empty if it can

provide housing, it should be doing that. Is this 150% tax in us? In

need to work out the financial penalty being a great driver. You

need to decide if you are going to let it, invest it or sell it. The

more it costs to being left empty, the more it will force you to make a

decision. It has brought 80 properties back into use in Camden.

I am a low tax conservatives so normally I would not support the

idea of raising taxes. If local councils feel there is a role to be

played in actually assisting with the empty housing situation, so be

it. Good luck to them for trying. If you do not leave your home empty,

you would not collect the extra tax. We need to look at where this is

happening and why it is happening. We are talking about 6% of

properties. Many of these are actually in real Central London,

Kensington and Westminster, where most of the unoccupied properties

are. They have to look at how much in the context aware it is as well.

A 150% increase may have an impact in parts of London. More than 15

young people are stabbed in London every week, according to new figures

released by the London Ambulance Service. Now, around 50 backbench

MPs are arguing it is time for an automatic prison sentence for anyone

caught carrying a knife for the second time. Tonight on BBC London

News, a 15-year-old boy is stabbed to death. Kevin was stabbed to

death. The stabbed victims. Every day in London on average to young

people are stabbed. 850 of them in 2013 alone. Instances of knife crime

has fallen by 4% in the last year but some backbench MPs have argued

the sentences carried out for people carrying a knife do not go far

enough. They are calling for a mandatory sentence for anyone found

in possession of a night for a second time. For Egon, any changes

will come too late. For a group of boys that started attacking the

friend he was with, he stopped and intervened. They told him to stop

interfering. They stabbed him with one stab wound. Losing a child is

one of the most natural things that could ever happen to any parent. In

society, the more we put the robust zero tolerance, the more these young

people actually reflect on their actions and hopefully that should

stop them. Yvonne agrees with the proposal that people caught carrying

knives for a second time go automatically to jail. The plan

seems to have put the two sides of the coalition at loggerheads.

Theresa May, the Conservative Home Secretary, has voiced her support.

The Liberal Democrats have come out with a measure saying Nick Clegg

would undermine the role of judges and could result in those who carry

small blades, such as penknives, landing in jail. Nicked a bar is one

MP who has tabled an amendment for the bill which will be debated in

the House. Are you going to tell Yvonne Lawson and parents of the

other 850 young people who were stabbed in London last year that you

do not think that a mandatory sentence for two sequential episodes

are enough? What we have to have is legislation that proves it works.

What we know is prison does not work in terms of reoffending. At the

moment, 70% of young people, and we are talking about mainly an offence

involving young people, 70% of those people sent to prison for short

sentences reoffend within a year. It that is an argument for changing the

way that prison staff. The reason why prisoners do not work at the

moment is because they are overcrowded. This is going to cause

more overcrowding. What is a better way of doing is to allow judges to

make decisions in individual cases about whether a custodial sentence

is the right one or not. Already, in terms of offenders over 16 years of

age, more than 50% of those people are being sentenced to a custodial

sentence for threatening somebody with a knife. A very good piece of

legislation -- it is a very good piece of legislation that has been

pushed through. You know what motivates a young person in London

to carry a knife. Tell us why they do it. A lot of young people feel

they have to carry a knife for their own safety, their own protection. It

is very stupid to do. They have no intention whatsoever of using it but

they get involved in an argument would lose their temper. The next

thing it ends up in somebody's ribs. We need to educate young people. I

am not talking about young doctors or police officers going into

schools and talking at these young people. We need people who have been

in the situation as young people have been in. You have been accused

by Nick Clegg no less of headline grabbing. What is your evidence that

changing sentencing policy changes criminal behaviour? As for headline

grabbing, it is a ridiculous statement to make. I have been

talking about all this. If you want to change sentencing policy and take

away the discretion of judges, you need some evidence it will work.

What is your evidence? It is difficult to produce evidence on

sentencing for those convicted of carrying a knife for a second time.

We have not been sending enough... This -- if this has worked in other

areas, surely you can tell me about it? With firearms, it has had a very

significant effect in London. Is it the sentencing which has changed

behaviour? I will look with respect to people in your profession. If the

Metropolitan Police Commissioner is convinced, so am I. Let me address

the key issue. Knife crime sentencing, introducing a mandatory

sentence for carrying a knife on a second conviction, let's not forget.

This will not be the solution to knife culture by any means. It has a

critical role to play. That is the role of the courts. We cannot have,

as we do now, nearly 8000 people who have been convicted on multiple

occasions simply having a fine. I do not know if you have made your mind

up. How would you persuade her. accepted even by the Liberal

Democrats, now they are rolling back. The Labour Party accept that

the message that comes from the courts needs to be unambiguous, we

will not tolerate carrying a knife. Make will have seen many instances

where this can make a difference -- Meg will have seen. You have

breathed families, do they want you to vote for this amendment? I am

dealing with a family who think you should be imprisoned for being

caught carrying even the first time. We need to look at what makes young

people carry a knife, a lot do it out of fear and if you carry one,

you as likely -- you are as likely to be a victim. Some of those

convicted are very young and that is my caution. Why is your leader... He

told the BBC, we are definitely sympathetic to the issue of

mandatory sentences after a second offence, what definitely sympathetic

mean? It is above my pay grade to comment on what my leader will

decide to vote for. Their version is important. Our young offenders

institutions have had some very bad inspection reports. Some of those

very young people, it is not a good place for them to go. We need to

divert them. I think where someone is a serious criminal, carrying a

knife, we need to look at it. What do you think. Young people London

carrying knives? If you get people convicted imprisoned, thinking it is

OK to carry a knife, don't make the stupid mistakes that I have done. It

will get through to young people. It is like drugs legislation. How many

young people when they decide which drugs to use, think, what is the

maximum sentence? They don't think they are going to get caught. We

need to increase the chances of these people being caught. Because

they don't think beyond that. On the one hand he is saying don't send

them to jail, that the reform and rehabilitation bozos that the

government have introduced allow for shorter sentencing, mentoring,

exactly what he is calling for, whilst in jail and at the gates. We

have to be careful to get the balance.

Thank you for joining us. Two years ago campaigning for

re-election, Boris Johnson claimed his rival Ken Livingstone spent more

time in Havana that he bring. This programme has learned that Mr

Johnson has spent more time in Doha than in Dagenham. Could it be that

Boris Johnson is becoming what his predecessor was so often accused of?

Being a zone one Mayor. Boris Johnson is fond of saying that

he thinks being Mayor of London is the best job in the world. But what

exactly does it entail? Sunday Politics decided to find out how he

spends his time and obtained a copy of his diary for the calendar year

of 2013, dealing nearly 2000 appointments, all of which we

examined. As you might expect, you are most likely to find the Mayor in

City Hall, nearly two thirds of his curdled appointments took place

here, most often with core members of the team. Away from there it is

Westminster where he is most likely do have an engagement comedy is

there almost every weekend day meeting civil servants and

colleagues. He is likely to be found in iconic locations. Including the

Rolling Stones at Hyde Park and the Champions League final at Wembley.

He has been to the Savoy hotel a number of times. For example, he has

been to the Savoy hotel more than he has been to the London boroughs of

Barnet, Bexley, Romney, Croydon, Enfield, Greenwich, Haringey,

Harrow, Hillingdon, Hounslow, Lewisham, Murton, Richmond and

Sutton. There isn't a single outer London borough that he has visited

more times than he has been to the Savoy hotel. The difficulty is that

he has made a big deal about going to outer London, to sizing Ken

Livingstone for not doing enough. -- criticising Ken Livingstone. He has

used the phrase about Havana and favouring four times in the last

three years. He went to Havana more often than he went to hoovering.

Here -- than he went to favouring. He even repeats the line in his 2012

manifesto. We discovered that the Mayor did not visit he bring -- did

not visit Havering at all. Should we be concerned? We are crying out for

people with power to give us the help and support we need. We are

desperate for Boris Johnson to come to us and listen to the views of the

people. Don't just sit in your office, get out, see what is

happening around, give people opportunity to inform you of their

feelings, their views on the subject. And please give them the

support they need. While he may not have found the time to visit these

parts on official business last year... The Mayor did find space in

his diary to travel aboard to China, France, Switzerland and the Gulf. In

2013 he spent more time in Doha than he did in Dagenham. Some of those

people and their reputations are not squeaky clean. You mean some of the

people involved in Qatar, a lot of stuff around the World Cup? The

Mayor is incredible quiet about the World Cup come he speaks about

everything else and chooses not to say anything about one of the major

revelations around the awarding of the World Cup franchise. And here he

is, he is silent on it. His silence is deafening. Wherever the right

balance lies between travelling to the suburbs and going abroad, Boris

Johnson's opponents are almost certain to use the contents of his

diary to suggest he is becoming a zone one Mayor.

We asked the Mayor to appear on the programme, he declined. We caught up

with the Mayor's chief of staff earlier in the week. Sir Eddie

argues that looking at one-year's activity in isolation is potentially

misleading and that his record in his first four years in visiting out

of London was excellent. The Mayor made it clear that outer London was

a priority to him, you went there 100 times in the course of his four

years. It is 100 official engagements, not just political

visits and anything else. That was twice or three times what Ken

Livingstone had done. In the first term the Mayor went to outer London

a lot more than he has been recently. 86 tonnes in the first

three years, the lion share of what we are talking about -- 86 times. If

you look at 2013, he went to the Savoy hotel more times than he went

to every London borough except one. The Mayor goes to outer London on a

regular basis. He went almost the same number proportionately in his

last two years than in the first four. I don't accept that criticism.

Yes, knee goes to meetings in central London all the time. -- he

goes to. It is part of the mayoral job, to be repellent in London --

representing London. He speaks on a regular basis. These are the big

shop windows of London. A fair point from Eddie Lister, this is a busy

man with a lot on his plate? It is interesting, he visited a lot in his

first term. He has rather turned his back on it. I would defend the right

of the matter go abroad and campaign for London but he is talking a lot

to developer friends. I represent Shoreditch which is about to have a

big development. I hope he's going to talk as much to London is about

their issues as these foreign investors. If he is watching I am

sure he will consider that. Are you happy with his record? He has been

to Enfield won since 2013. He met a baby llama which was named after

him, I don't know if you were there on that illustrious occasion. I

don't remember if I was, I would like to know why not. The reality

is, if you are saying in the year 2013 that he went to Doha more than

Dagenham, true. But over the life of his male oral tea, he has spent an

awful long time in Asta London -- mayoralty but he spent an awful lot

of time in outer London. He was in my borough six months ago and he is

a massive attraction and he talks a lot of good sense. It is what he

does as well as what he visits. This is a man who was keen to visit those

outer London Paris when he felt he needed to rely on those votes, it is

cynical -- outer London boroughs. It is not cynical. He has plugged 15

million quid into outer London boroughs in a structured way, to

invest in businesses and high streets and regeneration. I think

that is what people will judge him on. Has he got his eye on the

greater prize now? He wants his Westminster seat back on the

possibly the leadership. He is a man who knows how to make the best of a

cheaper blizzard tee shot. Give him credit for some of the things he has

done -- cheap publicity shot. You are more likely to get the media to

cover you if you are in zone one so maybe you are right with your

cynicism. It is the fault of the BBC! Time for the rest of the

political news in London in 60 seconds.

Transport for London has begun the search for a new sponsor for its

bicycle hire scheme. In December last year, following a strategic

review, Barclay's Bank said it would not renew its deal which is due to

end in 25th -- 2015. The coroner of the inquest into the death of Mark

Duggan has published a series of concerns about the case. Judge Keith

Cutler said he was worried fatal police shootings were not as

rigorously examined as they could have been. Heathrow's new terminal

two has welcomed its first passengers. It will be some months

before the other and airlines join United air lines at the new

building. Two men have been arrested in collection with allegations of

electoral fraud in Tower Hamlets. Police say in the majority of cases,

no criminal offences have been committed.

I would like to pick up on the issue of electoral fraud, you can get up

to two years in prison, a serious offence. Do we need serious reform

of the way we vote? I went to my local polling station, no polling

card, no ID, is that satisfactory? Not really. With the postal vote

there is a higher threshold but you do need something. We need to have

some better approach. We had this approach in Hackney, some

councillors were jailed for electoral fraud so we are particular

about how we make sure things are above board in Hackney. Often old

ladies and people want help and it gets tricky. You can see how it

could be laid open. A big difference between electoral fraud and helping

an old lady fill in her form. There has been an arrest in Enfield as

well. Someone made a complete misrepresentation and filled out the

form without telling the truth and it is shameful. In this country it

is harder to get a library card than it is to vote, which is ludicrous.

We have made some reforms but I think we should go further, we

should look at Northern Ireland and introduce ID. Is it a price for

getting people out there? No, you have got to have the integrity of

the electoral roll. We have one of the least secure systems in the

world and I think some form of identification... As the former

minister responsible I knew their day would come and I think people

will see the benefit of ID cards. They work in Northern Ireland, they

are not intrusive, we should be prepared for taking that lead. A

lovely point on which to end. It is all we have time for. Thank you to

my guests. That is it for the Sunday Politics in London. Back to Andrew.

Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?

Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make

we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read

the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read

the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in

your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not

being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national

holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off

instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is

going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to

influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like

the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society

and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to

Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such

as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as

guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit

half of what men saying this means that women inherit

and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get

any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law

Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is

meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different

situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my

profession of you and planned infiltration? In my

profession of you having spent 13 years on the leadership of an

Islamist organisation, having been involved

Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very

Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to

influence the students of this country with a medieval

interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative

view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within

our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were

explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican

faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.

Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a

policy question. I am not generally in favour. I would believe in this

establishment. I am not a fan of faith schools. I do think the

solution is to ban them. I do think these schools should start working

out with an engaging with the wider communities and not being insular

and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is

coming out tomorrow. We have already had a taste about what it is saying

about some of the schools. Is it a serious problem? It is a very

serious problem. It comes from the segregation of children into

intensely populated areas where everyone is Muslim virtually. You

have to have a system of spreading children between schools. It very

often happens, even with a secular school like this. Nearby Catholic or

Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that

leaves the rest of the state schools to become all of one faith. I think

all of the parties are being quite hypocritical about the profound

problem of continuing to have faith schools. You have Orthodox Jewish

schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict

Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get

worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a

problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state

should simply withdraw from the business of faith education. Like

France? Yes, a secular school. The overall government policy is to take

power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some

schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than

incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of

this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you

devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and

behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary

for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views

that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe

would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how

tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that

view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do

expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the

taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,

educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated

equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at

which has Andrew Mitchell on it, the former development Secretary,

because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned

about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.

There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley

Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating

free schools and academies is undermined the work of local

education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which

are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of

being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have

the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary

of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not

that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the

oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point. By

tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you

think that will play out? -- it cannot have gone pear shaped. The

story was broken in February. It will keep playing out. The report

that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow or Monday. Then there is the other

report that will look into wider questions, that will come out in

July, I think. We are expecting two points. -- reports. We have to look

at questions of Ofsted and other institutions in our society, even

government departments, where idea of taxing non-violent extremism

became a too boot in this country. -- a taboo. They must be rebuffed

the challenge, as we would expect racism to be challenged. In the

argument between Michael Gove and Theresa May, where do you side? They

should be challenged openly and robust leap by civilian society. It

was settled by the Prime Minister and is government policy. I had a

hand in advising or consulting. I think Fiona Cunningham was forced to

resign because what she did violates official government policy. It just

has not been implemented yet. Will Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke?

You'll agree he have to decide whether he will spirit at stopping

him or accepting him as commission president and ask in return for a

massive commission portfolio for Britain, something like the internal

market, which they missed out on last time. It is a diplomatic

decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he

takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the

beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British

Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is

reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest of them. He is reaping that reward.

There is a lot of support within Europe. In Germany, there was a lot

of opposition to David Cameron getting his way. I know him from

Brussels. He is entertaining, you go to dinner with him and he smokes and

drinks. He is entertaining but he is the most awful person you could

think of having trying to sort of symbolise a new European Union. I

remember I was there join the Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when

the voters in France and the Netherlands voted no to the European

constitution, what was his response to that? Let's carry on with the

ratification process of this treaty that has been comprehensively

rejected by voters. He did not say the final bit of that sentence. You

can see why Eurosceptics want him. He has blown a raspy at all the

people who have protested at the elections with the way the European

Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry. This is your most popular... What

has come in most recently is doing really well. This is yours. There we

go. Cheers! By our people so cynical? They always go for a drink

at 11am and they pull their own pipes. I see them every day. -- pts.

Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define

clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough

for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the

fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We

need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,

assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is

what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to

finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger

people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually

liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too

late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the

one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been

doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight

three general elections to the left of Labour and on the third when you

are in coalition with the Tories, you have got a problem. I will be

back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

What's the hardest thing about being a foster parent?

You're constantly trying to build the elusive trust.

It's like a big old question mark in your heart.

I just try and do the best I can for them while they're with me.

Join Lorraine Pascale as she looks at stories of fostering...

I wasn't happy at all, but now I am. ..including her own.