07/02/2016 Sunday Politics London


07/02/2016

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Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

We finally know what David Cameron wants

:00:41.:00:42.

as he attempts to reform our relationship with the EU.

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Does it deliver on his promises - and will it be enough to convince

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and most of us can't name our MEP.

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Is there a democratic crisis in the EU?

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Former Respect MP George Galloway and Labour's Stephen Kinnock go

:00:59.:01:02.

Jeremy Corbyn has plenty of new grassroots support.

:01:03.:01:08.

But is Labour facing a cash crisis thanks to a loss of money from big

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donors, taxpayers and Government plans to restrict union funding

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It is an affront on British democracy.

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If you look at any previous agreement which changed the funding

:01:18.:01:24.

of a political party, it was done on a consensual, cross-party basis.

:01:25.:01:27.

On the final leg of his mayoralty,

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but what does Boris Johnson's official diary tell us

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about his priorities these last two years?

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And joining me as always, three journalists who've got more

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opinions than the campaign to leave the EU has splinter groups.

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Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

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We'll see if they're still on speaking terms by the end

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Let's start today by talking about what the Government in England

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is or isn't going to do about a sugar tax.

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Health experts have been calling for one, to tackle

:02:07.:02:09.

is a crisis in child obesity - but so far ministers

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Well, this morning the celebrity chef Jamie Oliver said

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to "get ninja" to force the Government to act.

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Here's the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, responding

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on The Andrew Marr Show this morning.

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It has to be a game changing moment, a robust strategy.

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The issue here is, do what it takes to make sure

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that children consume less sugar, because we have got

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We are the most obese nation in the EU

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Well, we are going to be announcing in due course -

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David Cameron has said, if it isn't a sugar tax,

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it needs to be something that is equally robust.

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But he hasn't taken a sugar tax off the table.

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Will there be a sugar tax? His instinct is to say no, I do not want

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to run the nanny state that Jeremy Hunt says his one-year-old daughter,

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by the time she is an adult, one third of the population will be

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clinically obese and Public Health England shows if you introduce a

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sugar tax, you will reduce that some Jeremy Hunt is in favour but the

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Prime Minister is inching towards some decision, whether that is a

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sugar tax or not... Regional and devolved governments, Wales has been

:03:35.:03:45.

very keen on that. I feel I am at liberty to say this but Scotland

:03:46.:03:50.

also has greater tax-raising powers so he could get outflanked. Or wait

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and see how it does in Scotland and Wales and then decide to follow

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Yes. I want to make the liberal case against this but that ship has

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sailed decades ago, we tax alcohol and tobacco and this is more like a

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revenue raiser because that isn t -- a justifiable cause, we have a

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population with a sweet tooth that you can hit the revenue. That is the

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reasoning to deal with rather than the more censorious reason of

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monitoring behaviour. And junior doctors, scheduled to be back on

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strike on Wednesday in England, which means that some of the talks

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so far have failed? There is bad feeling but as Andrew Marr was

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saying, the turnout on the vote was very high, and the 8%. The

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government is really struggling to shake this debate and it is

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interesting with that interview Jeremy Hunt has said until now that

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the cost of the new contract would be revenue neutral, he now admits

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there would not only be a transitional cost but longer term

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and the government is really struggling on this. It is not affect

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emergency services this time. It was a big week for

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David Cameron's renegotiation He once promised a fundamental

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change in that relationship as a condition for backing

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the campaign to stay in. Well, there are changes -

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but perhaps not quite as fundamental And what he has achieved still needs

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to be agreed by EU leaders at a summit in a fortnight's

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time, where it could be But Mr Cameron says what he's

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achieved is so significant that if Britain was not an EU member

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this would make him want to join. Here he is speaking

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earlier in the week. I can say, hand on heart,

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I've delivered the commitments that I made in my manifesto,

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and I think the whole country knows that if you, for instance,

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pay people ?5,000, ?10,000 additional to their wages,

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then that is a draw to Britain, and that's one of

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the reasons why we've seen such high levels

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of migration and movement. So David Cameron says it lives up

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to everything that was promised in the Conservative

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election manifesto. I'm joined by former Cabinet

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minister Eric Pickles. Welcome back. You said this week the

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Prime Minister has kept to the letter and spirit of his manifesto

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promise. Let us look at what this promise. The manifesto said we will

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insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit

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must live here and contribute to the economy for a minimum of four years.

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The emergency rig on tax credits does not achieve that? -- brake You

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must bear in mind the things we can do through domestic law, a

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job-seeker from Europe who cannot find a job within six months, you

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are obliged to leave and that has been achieved through domestic law.

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The manifesto promised no in work benefits until you have been here

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for four years. The reality is graduated, they rise, and after four

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years you get the full benefit? That is not unreasonable. After four

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years to get full benefit but we know that the criteria for putting

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on the brake for four years has already been passed and the largest

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political party in the EU agrees that has happened and we should have

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this in place after the next referendum. It will have to be

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approved by the European Parliament and the other 27 members and what

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constitution, emergency, the cost to migrants is five billion pounds

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every year, we are 1.6 5 trillion economy, public spending is 750

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billion pounds. Why is ?500 million and emergency, only 1.6% of the

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bill? My earlier answer was, we already know the political leader of

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the largest political party in the Parliament of Europe has said it is

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the fact that we have arrived at those conditions and an emergency

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brake will be placed. What emergency? It is an emergency in the

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views of the European partners, they have accrued -- agreed to this

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emergency brake but in terms have the mechanism of Britain future for

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other countries, that will be decided over the next two weeks but

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what we do know as far as the UK is concerned, we will get that

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emergency brake. If a migrant Eilidh Child lives abroad, they should

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receive no child tax credit or benefit, no matter how long they

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have worked in the UK or how much tax they have paid. There it is The

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sentiment does not deliver on that either? What it does deliver is

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harmonisation of benefits so the level of benefits will be exactly

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the same as it would be in their own country. You are going to have 8

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different levels of child benefit! In many cases it can be as much as

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the quarter. And in some cases, more? Not many people to pay the

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same level that we don't but the point I was making is that in Poland

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it is a quarter of the level as it is here. You promised no child

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benefit for migrants and you're delivering index linked child

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benefit for migrants? It is a big improvement on the current

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situation. When you go into negotiation, but do precisely that

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and I think it is within the spirit of what we said. The manifesto said

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that you will control migration from the European Union by reforming

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welfare rolls and Mr Cameron at one stage said that reducing immigration

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from the European Union would be at the heart of this. Can you give us

:10:49.:10:53.

an idea of how much these changes will reduce European Union

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migration? I am not part of the negotiating team so all I can go

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wrong is what I have seen in newspapers and given that we know

:11:04.:11:11.

that in work benefits, 40% of new arrivals are supported by that and

:11:12.:11:16.

given that the average is ?6,00 in addition and can be as much as

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?10,000, it will have an effect You said 40% but that is not the figure,

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we know from the Freedom of Information release that if there

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had been any emergency brake in the last four years it would have

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affected 84,000 families. That is it, not 40%. I said that 40% of the

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new immigrants that, in, new migrants, claiming in work benefit,

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you are comparing apples and pears? I am not. 80,000 families is nowhere

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near 40%. Last year, 180,000 net migration from the EU. Do you have

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any idea by how much the figure will be reduced as a result of the

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settlement? Were not trying to prevent people living inside the

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European Union, we are trying to stop people coming for something for

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nothing, to claim from our innovative system and secondly, to

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ensure there is an equalisation inside the market of people coming

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here just because of our in work benefits. Since this will apply only

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to new migrants and not those that are already here, is unlikely to be

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a rush to come in before these restrictions in? And the figure

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could rise? As part of the negotiations we have to ensure that

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doesn't happen. We would have two ask as part of the negotiation. . To

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ensure that there isn't this new influx. In the manifesto you also

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said that we want national partners to be able to work together to block

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unwanted European legislation. In the Lisbon Treaty there is an orange

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card system that does that and we have the red card with Mr Cameron,

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is this an improvement? The Orange card has been used twice. That was

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yellow, orange has never been used. I beg your pardon. It is confusing!

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How many different cards? Three yellow and orange and this red card.

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In what way would the red card be any improvement on the existing

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Orange card, which means 51% of national parliaments can make the

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commission rethink? We can move much quicker in terms of trying to knock

:13:58.:14:03.

out any deal between European Parliaments and secondly, national

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parliaments are becoming much more assertive in terms of their session

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and that is a massively important step in the re-establishment in the

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importance of national parliaments. It is not just our Parliament, we

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would need to get 56% of national parliaments, at least 15 others and

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in many cases we would only have 12 weeks to ask them to vote against

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the policy of their own national government. That is not credible? Of

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course it is. I think this is a very important step on the way of

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ensuring national parliaments are much more assertive and don't

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forget, read this in line of stopping them moving towards ever

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closer union and protecting sterling. Let us look at that. It

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was meant to be one of the big wins for the Prime Minister, Donald Tusk,

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the President of the Council, says we have always had that, it need not

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mean integration for Britain, the settlement confirms only the status

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quo. It is very interesting for him to

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say that but on every programme that I've ever been on, it has been this

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drift towards ever closer union political union, that has been

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important. If it means we have now re-established that it is about give

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and take and cooperation, that is a great thing. Given how little the

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prime and this has achieved -- the Prime Minister has achieved, would

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his position not be undermined, or become untenable, if this draft

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settlement was further undermined before being finally agreed? I'm

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very confident, given that this Prime Minister is the only Prime

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Minister ever to take powers back from Europe, that it will be

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successful. But could you stomach of further watering down? It would

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depend what the overall position is but my position comes not from any

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enthusiasm for Europe. It's just a lack of any decent ideas that we

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would be better off outside. To come back to this business of the

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European Parliament, there are number of areas in which the

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European Parliament has to approve this settlement, including the work

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benefits, child benefit element perhaps even the red card. What

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guarantees can you give, because the European Parliament won't to do

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this, if it does it at all, until after the referendum... So how can

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you guarantee that we will vote to stay in and the European Parliament

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will not pass the legislation? We've had indications from the European

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Parliament that they will do precisely that. What I would hope...

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Where? Just a second. The leader of the largest party has said that I

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think what we would want to see over the next couple of weeks are more

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codification in terms of how this would come to operate, not just for

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us but for other parties. But if the European Parliament doesn't pass

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this, it is not legally binding The Prime Minister has told us that It

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can only be eagerly binding under the existing treaties with

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legislation through the European Parliament. You are asking the

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British people to vote blind, to vote yes, without really knowing

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what the European Parliament might do down the road in the autumn at

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the end of the year. I'm very confident that will be the case --

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won't be the case. It will be an appalling abuse of trust and would

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undermine the European Union, were it not to do so. But sooner or

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later, we are going to have to go on to discuss, what would the

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consequences be thus leaving? Because that would not be a

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pain-free experience. I really want the guarantees for those that want

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us to leave to say that my constituents and my constituents'

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children will be materially better off by leaving. Not just the same

:18:09.:18:13.

but better off by leaving. Eric Pickles, thanks for being with us

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this morning. Thank you. In recent weeks we've been debating

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some of the big issues at the heart We've covered immigration

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and the economy. Today we're going to look

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at Britain's sovereignty within the European Union and ask,

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is the EU a democratic club There are about 500 million people

:18:27.:18:28.

across the 28 member states Voters from these countries go

:18:29.:18:32.

to the polls every five years to elect 751 members

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of the European Parliament. The UK currently has

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73 MEPs, who have some say over the EU budget

:18:39.:18:42.

and new legislation. But it's the unelected Commission,

:18:43.:18:46.

led by President Jean-Claude Juncker, that is responsible

:18:47.:18:49.

for day-to-day management, plus proposing and

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implementing new laws. Later this month, David Cameron

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will attend a crucial meeting of the European Council

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to press for his draft settlement, the outcome of his

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efforts to renegotiate our terms The Council is made up of the 2

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heads of state or government of EU members and decides

:19:07.:19:13.

the Union's overall political But it's not to be confused with

:19:14.:19:16.

the Council of the European Union, where ministers from each

:19:17.:19:21.

country meet to discuss, There's always been

:19:22.:19:25.

concern about a so-called democratic deficit and at the last

:19:26.:19:29.

elections in 2014, turnout In the UK, where few people can

:19:30.:19:34.

even name a local MEP, I'm joined now by former Respect

:19:35.:19:41.

MP George Galloway - he's said this week he'll campaign

:19:42.:19:50.

for Britain to leave the EU - and by the Labour MP

:19:51.:19:53.

Stephen Kinnock, who wants Stephen Kinnock, let me come to you

:19:54.:20:02.

first. Turnout at the last election was under 36%. Only 11% can name

:20:03.:20:09.

their MEP. Richie Gray the EU has a massive democratic deficit and the

:20:10.:20:12.

Cameron settlement does nothing to address it, does it? On the

:20:13.:20:16.

democratic deficit, of course it would be good if more people voted

:20:17.:20:22.

in democratic elections but let s not forget there is another

:20:23.:20:24.

democratically elected institution in Brussels and that's the council

:20:25.:20:26.

of the vistas and the European council. They are ministers. Our

:20:27.:20:31.

Prime Minister, directly elected by the British people, going to

:20:32.:20:35.

Brussels to exert influence for Britain. The democratic deficit

:20:36.:20:39.

sometimes gets tied up with the European Parliament. That's an

:20:40.:20:42.

element of it but the council is a major part. On the renegotiation, I

:20:43.:20:46.

think the really important point is that this referendum is not about

:20:47.:20:51.

David Cameron's renegotiation. This referendum is about the future of

:20:52.:20:55.

the United Kingdom as a trading nation, as a proud nation in terms

:20:56.:21:00.

of a diplomatic big player and where we are actually going in terms of

:21:01.:21:04.

the long-term future of the country. It's not about the precise details

:21:05.:21:09.

of David Cameron's renegotiation. Mr Cameron think that is important

:21:10.:21:14.

George Galloway, you said you believe in a union of the peoples of

:21:15.:21:17.

Europe but surely the only realistic way to achieve that is to work for a

:21:18.:21:21.

reformed EU. Anything else is just rhetoric. No, because I think it is

:21:22.:21:33.

in the Brits of the EU. You pointed to the visibility of the European

:21:34.:21:36.

Parliament, its credibility and standing but you didn't add that the

:21:37.:21:39.

European Parliament itself, even if AT the centre people were turning

:21:40.:21:42.

out to vote for it, has almost no power. The power lies in this

:21:43.:21:48.

council of ministers and in a bureaucracy well entrenched, very

:21:49.:21:53.

lavishly funded, which has meant of its own. I could answer your

:21:54.:21:57.

question in two words - Catherine Ashton. Never heard of her? No. Ever

:21:58.:22:05.

elected to? No. She was the European Foreign Minister, dictating to other

:22:06.:22:08.

countries outside the world with no democratic mandate of any kind. I

:22:09.:22:14.

think we have to be more sensible about the way we talk about these

:22:15.:22:18.

things. There is a process of co-decision which is enshrined in

:22:19.:22:21.

the treaties of the European Union. The vast majority of the legislation

:22:22.:22:26.

which goes through has to be agreed by both the European Parliament and

:22:27.:22:29.

by the European council on the basis of proposals from the European

:22:30.:22:32.

Commission. Not necessarily all the council. Politics is the art of the

:22:33.:22:39.

possible and when you are part of a system of pooled sovereignty is

:22:40.:22:43.

when we come together as nation states because we believe our

:22:44.:22:46.

sovereignty is actually strengthened through cooperation, of course you

:22:47.:22:50.

have to make compromises. You don't win absolutely 100% of everything

:22:51.:22:54.

that you go for but actually, I believe that through corporation and

:22:55.:22:56.

pulling our sovereignty our sovereignty is strengthened. There

:22:57.:23:01.

has been a lot of talk by the Prime Minister about asserting the

:23:02.:23:04.

sovereignty of Parliament. It seems to be one of the carrots to attract

:23:05.:23:09.

Mr Boris Johnson to come onside But surely you have to accept that in

:23:10.:23:13.

many areas, the EU and the European Court of Justice, they are sovereign

:23:14.:23:16.

and Parliament has to recognise that sovereignty or we have to leave I

:23:17.:23:21.

think that we have to also look at the likes of Google or the big

:23:22.:23:26.

multinational companies. They don't recognise the concept of

:23:27.:23:30.

sovereignty. For people on the left, such as George and myself, the key

:23:31.:23:35.

point of the European Union is, it's a transnational body that regulating

:23:36.:23:39.

transnational business. Not very well. It is not regulating them very

:23:40.:23:43.

well. Much better than we could do them alone. I don't think so. The

:23:44.:23:49.

bottom line is... And this is to be, on the left. Mr Kinnock senior and I

:23:50.:23:55.

shared many platforms on this, as well as the late Mr Benn, the late

:23:56.:24:01.

Mr foot. This was commonplace on the left. We don't want to be dictated

:24:02.:24:07.

to by other countries. We want our people to choose our government and

:24:08.:24:12.

thus our direction. And I'd rather take my chance with changing things

:24:13.:24:17.

in Britain than waiting for a change in Bulgaria or in Poland. But you

:24:18.:24:23.

are nationalists and doesn't but inevitably involve some kind of

:24:24.:24:29.

pooling sovereignty? The whole basis of the European Union... As we

:24:30.:24:33.

always said from 1975 onwards, on the left, the European Community,

:24:34.:24:37.

now the EU, is actually built on neoliberal economic principles,

:24:38.:24:43.

which are ironclad and unchangeable. However people want to vote. Are you

:24:44.:24:49.

comfortable with the manner in which Greece's sovereignty was overturned

:24:50.:24:52.

by the European institutions and above all by companies -- countries

:24:53.:24:58.

like Germany? We live in a highly globalised, interdependent world and

:24:59.:25:02.

the idea that the UK alone can exert influence and regulate the big

:25:03.:25:06.

multinationals on its own is absurd. The other key point on Greece is,

:25:07.:25:10.

how would we help the people of Greece by leaving the EU? Our

:25:11.:25:14.

principles are about solidarity a key value on which European Union is

:25:15.:25:18.

founded, which is a value of the left. What was the solidarity that

:25:19.:25:23.

the EU showed Greece? I think what we need is a Labour Prime Minister

:25:24.:25:26.

in Brussels arguing against the politics of austerity. We are not

:25:27.:25:33.

part of the eurozone. This was a eurozone argument. We can still

:25:34.:25:40.

exert our influence. What many would think is your natural allies on the

:25:41.:25:44.

European left, so reads the increase, and a party in Spain, want

:25:45.:25:49.

to stay in the EU. Why are you right and your comrades wrong? The people

:25:50.:25:54.

of Greece were crushed underfoot by this neoliberal consensus on which

:25:55.:25:58.

the EU and administrations are built. Portugal actually had an

:25:59.:26:04.

election and elected a majority of left-wing MPs and we're told by the

:26:05.:26:10.

European Union, the president of Portugal was told, you mustn't

:26:11.:26:12.

summon these people to your palace to allow them to form a government.

:26:13.:26:16.

This is unconscionable. It's not because I love the people of Greece,

:26:17.:26:20.

though I do, or the people of Spain. I don't want us to face the same

:26:21.:26:25.

fate as them. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonell's economic policies, which

:26:26.:26:30.

I believe in and which are badly needed, are illegal under the EU. If

:26:31.:26:35.

we were to save our steel industry, for example, we would be acting out

:26:36.:26:38.

with the European Union's legal framework. You've been closely

:26:39.:26:43.

involved in the steel industry. What do you say to that? I fail to see

:26:44.:26:48.

how our principles of solidarity and reaching out to our brothers and

:26:49.:26:51.

sisters in other parts of the year are helped by the idea that we

:26:52.:26:55.

suddenly leave. But to me seems to be going against the founding value

:26:56.:26:57.

of the Labour Party, which is solidarity. On steel, this is a

:26:58.:27:03.

classic example but it is up to your member state government to play the

:27:04.:27:06.

game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government that has been

:27:07.:27:10.

asleep at the wheel on steel for four or five years. An energy

:27:11.:27:12.

compensation package should have been put in place years ago. The

:27:13.:27:15.

government has done nothing about it. The massive flooding of Chinese

:27:16.:27:20.

steel into the British market has only been happening over the last

:27:21.:27:24.

four years. That could only be done by Europe, not Britain. It took them

:27:25.:27:28.

for years to get the stated clearance because nobody was

:27:29.:27:31.

knocking on the door properly in Brussels and because we are cosying

:27:32.:27:34.

up to Beijing. Cameron and Osborne seem to be putting the interests of

:27:35.:27:40.

our relationship with China ahead of British industry. We are allowing

:27:41.:27:42.

them to damp massive amounts of Chinese steel in the market. The

:27:43.:27:48.

European Court of Justice is preventing us from deporting

:27:49.:27:49.

Moroccan citizen, the daughter-in-law of Abu Hamza, Abu

:27:50.:27:54.

Hamza himself convicted of 11 terrorist offences. She has done

:27:55.:27:59.

time, too, for a terrorist elated offence. We still can't deport her.

:28:00.:28:02.

That is a pretty serious intrusion of our sovereignty. I don't know the

:28:03.:28:07.

details of that case but I do know we live in a very interdependent

:28:08.:28:11.

world... You said that. What people want to know is if we can deport

:28:12.:28:14.

foreign citizens who have terrorist criminal convictions. We did manage

:28:15.:28:18.

to do it with Abu Hamza, so there are ways. The EU is a rules -based

:28:19.:28:23.

organisation. It sets the rules of the game. It's up to the member

:28:24.:28:28.

states to play that game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government

:28:29.:28:31.

that has failed to build alliances and coalitions in Brussels. That's

:28:32.:28:35.

one of the reasons we have a difficult relationship with the EU

:28:36.:28:40.

now. When you look at this leave site and the various factions of the

:28:41.:28:44.

time they seem to be spending more time knocking lumps out of each

:28:45.:28:51.

other, does that make you happy you joined? I campaigned against

:28:52.:28:54.

breaking up Britain and for a no vote in the Scottish referendum

:28:55.:28:56.

That didn't mean I was with the Tories, didn't mean I was with the

:28:57.:29:02.

Orange order. So are you solo again? There used to be a commonplace view

:29:03.:29:10.

from the 1970s, and still standing now, for a democratic future for

:29:11.:29:13.

Britain. We decide how many immigrants we have, who we deport,

:29:14.:29:17.

what our levels of taxation are and what our foreign policy should be.

:29:18.:29:21.

We will leave it there. Thank you both.

:29:22.:29:23.

Labour says it faces losing more than a quarter of its funding,

:29:24.:29:26.

thanks to Government plans to change the way the party gets money

:29:27.:29:29.

from trade union members, along with moves to cut state

:29:30.:29:31.

In a rare TV outing, the party's general secretary

:29:32.:29:35.

Iain McNicol has told us just how damaging the changes could be.

:29:36.:29:37.

An audience of around 800 people turning out on a Thursday night

:29:38.:29:45.

in North London to watch well-known comedians,

:29:46.:29:47.

artistic and political types talk about, well,

:29:48.:29:50.

why Jeremy Corbyn ought to be Prime Minister.

:29:51.:29:53.

He wasn't here and this wasn't a fundraiser but similar nights

:29:54.:30:02.

to this have raised cash for the party.

:30:03.:30:06.

Welcome, one and all, you bunch of loony lefties.

:30:07.:30:08.

I started in my constituency in Brentford.

:30:09.:30:13.

And then other constituencies asked me to do the same thing

:30:14.:30:18.

and we've done 165 and raised ?100,000.

:30:19.:30:55.

And it's just as well, because the Labour Party

:30:56.:30:57.

says it could be about to lose about ?8 million of funding

:30:58.:31:00.

if Government plans to change the way it collects

:31:01.:31:02.

money from trade union members go through.

:31:03.:31:04.

And they say it's no laughing matter.

:31:05.:31:05.

It is an affront on British democracy.

:31:06.:31:07.

If you look at any previous agreement which changed

:31:08.:31:09.

the funding of a political party, it was done on a consensual,

:31:10.:31:12.

cross-party basis, an agreement because of the effect it had.

:31:13.:31:14.

So is this an existential threat to the Labour Party?

:31:15.:31:17.

It would be very difficult for the party.

:31:18.:31:20.

funding would mean that we would not be able to operate in the current

:31:21.:31:25.

way that we do, holding the Government to account

:31:26.:31:27.

The cash goes towards staffing, reportedly around

:31:28.:31:31.

half its costs, and, of course, campaigning.

:31:32.:31:33.

Things like party election broadcasts, battle buses,

:31:34.:31:37.

At the moment, trade union members have to actively opt

:31:38.:31:41.

out of paying towards the Labour Party.

:31:42.:31:43.

In the future, they would have to opt in, in writing,

:31:44.:31:46.

within three months - something Labour fear

:31:47.:31:48.

people just won't get round to doing.

:31:49.:31:50.

It also coincides with a 19% cut to so-called short money,

:31:51.:31:56.

cash given to all opposition parties to

:31:57.:32:02.

help with the costs of Parliamentary business -

:32:03.:32:04.

a sort of concession for not having the civil service

:32:05.:32:06.

But the man who used to be in charge of said civil

:32:07.:32:10.

service says the Government's plans are at best partisan.

:32:11.:32:12.

It goes to this wider question of what I would see

:32:13.:32:18.

as a worryingly authoritarian streak in government that finds it

:32:19.:32:20.

difficult to live with and accept challenge.

:32:21.:32:22.

I think that's something that people of all parties...

:32:23.:32:25.

I'm actually a crossbencher, not in any

:32:26.:32:26.

party, and I think, whichever party are in,

:32:27.:32:28.

There's nothing authoritarian about having something

:32:29.:32:33.

clearly flagged in our manifesto, voted for in a majority government

:32:34.:32:39.

and delivered on, and there's nothing authoritarian about having

:32:40.:32:41.

That's to say, if you're a Labour Party supporter and you're

:32:42.:32:47.

a member of a trade union, you actively choose to do it,

:32:48.:32:50.

rather than having it forced upon you

:32:51.:32:52.

Frankly, I think the Labour Party needs to get

:32:53.:32:55.

out and convince union members it's a good use of their money to give

:32:56.:32:59.

that money to the Labour Party, just as the Conservatives

:33:00.:33:01.

and Liberal Democrats have to convince people to give

:33:02.:33:03.

We don't rely on people accidentally giving

:33:04.:33:14.

Back in Kentish Town, the organisers here say a night

:33:15.:33:24.

like this is as much about raising awareness and morale as it is cash.

:33:25.:33:27.

Jeremy Corbyn's leadership campaign relied on grassroots support.

:33:28.:33:29.

As the party's funding streams start to dry

:33:30.:33:31.

up, it it could well need to rely on people like this -

:33:32.:33:34.

people willing to come to a night about Jeremy Corbyn

:33:35.:33:37.

In fact, Mr Corbyn may prefer the thought of appealing

:33:38.:33:54.

to the wallets of people like this, rather than the traditional big

:33:55.:33:56.

donors, and number of whom have already publicly

:33:57.:33:58.

But fundraising made up just 3% of the

:33:59.:34:01.

The spotlight will now fall on how Labour pays its way in the future.

:34:02.:34:06.

And we now say goodbye to viewers in Scotland,

:34:07.:34:09.

who leave us for Sunday Politics Scotland.

:34:10.:34:11.

Now, this week in the House of Lords, Labour's peers

:34:12.:34:13.

will try to fight off the Government's plans to change

:34:14.:34:15.

the way union members give money to the party.

:34:16.:34:18.

The shadow leader in the Lords, Angela Smith, joins me now -

:34:19.:34:21.

and I should add we asked to speak to a Government minister

:34:22.:34:23.

For a change! Or not! If you join a trade union, why should part of the

:34:24.:34:28.

membership fee be given to the Labour Party without your explicit

:34:29.:34:31.

approval? It is a choice you can make and one of the things said

:34:32.:34:35.

during the House of Lords debate is a Conservative peer said, when was

:34:36.:34:40.

the evidence that people are forced to opt in? One of the key things is

:34:41.:34:45.

the government says you must opt in rather than quite but when they gave

:34:46.:34:50.

businesses two years to bring in the plastic bag levy, they gave trade

:34:51.:34:54.

unions three months to change them into our system. In three years

:34:55.:34:59.

would you change your mind? Well, no. It's not really a matter of

:35:00.:35:09.

time, then? Within three months in writing, the government is making

:35:10.:35:14.

this as difficult as possible. When this was looked at, it was amenable

:35:15.:35:18.

of a number of -- context of a number of aspects and they are not

:35:19.:35:24.

giving any other changes on those affecting themselves, only the

:35:25.:35:28.

Labour Party. Many members do not vote Labour, why should they have to

:35:29.:35:34.

opt out? Surely those who want to join Labour should have to opt in?

:35:35.:35:39.

There does not seem to be any problem with people being asked to

:35:40.:35:45.

opt out. Look at this in the context of funding for all parties, the

:35:46.:35:50.

government have picked one recommendation from the committee of

:35:51.:35:53.

standards in public life, the one that reflects the Labour Party adds

:35:54.:35:56.

nothing to look at Conservative Party funding, blatantly partisan

:35:57.:36:02.

and unfair. But is it wrong within its own right? Labour depends on

:36:03.:36:10.

inertia, people pay the levy but they don't want to and they do not

:36:11.:36:17.

know about opting out? Isn't it time we stopped tracking nonlabour

:36:18.:36:20.

voters? Nobody is tracking anybody, that is grossly misrepresenting In

:36:21.:36:28.

the context of all of these public life issues, you can do it but they

:36:29.:36:36.

say themselves, tracking, the Conservatives talk about the burden

:36:37.:36:42.

on trade unions, this is unfair It will ensure that in that short space

:36:43.:36:45.

of time they will not be able to reach everybody. You said that even

:36:46.:36:50.

in two years you would still be against it. That is not exactly what

:36:51.:36:57.

I said, over a longer period of time, in the context of all the

:36:58.:37:00.

other measures that have been addressed on party funding, what is

:37:01.:37:05.

unfair is this is one measure affecting one party. You understand

:37:06.:37:09.

the government is picking on you. Not just me! In the United States,

:37:10.:37:19.

Bernie Sanders, on the left of the party, he has no union backing or

:37:20.:37:26.

big donors or business backing. He managed to get, not even running

:37:27.:37:29.

nationwide, over 3 million individual donations. He raised $20

:37:30.:37:38.

million in January. Jeremy Corbyn is striking a chord with people who

:37:39.:37:41.

have never been involved before Why not raise more money from ordinary

:37:42.:37:48.

sympathisers. Do not think for one moment that trade unionists who

:37:49.:37:52.

could opt in are not ordinary Labour Party, many of them are and over

:37:53.:37:58.

longer period you would not see the drop off the Conservative Party is

:37:59.:38:02.

hoping for. $20 million in one month. That is amazing and I would

:38:03.:38:08.

like to change how we can fund political parties and that is what

:38:09.:38:13.

the committee looked at, reducing the cap on donations, reducing the

:38:14.:38:17.

spending limits and it did look at -- look at trade unionists funding.

:38:18.:38:24.

How much do you raise from individual members? About two thirds

:38:25.:38:31.

of funding. Excluding a good donors? I could not give you that figure.

:38:32.:38:40.

Isn't that the way the Labour should reduce its dependence on the unions,

:38:41.:38:46.

?8 million from the unions at the moment, and many people in the party

:38:47.:38:50.

used to think that kind of funding was a disadvantage for the party

:38:51.:38:56.

because you are more than unions. Would that not be one way of getting

:38:57.:39:02.

small, individual donations to bring in a lot of money and show that you

:39:03.:39:06.

are not in the pocket of anybody? Over the course of Parliament it is

:39:07.:39:11.

about ?8 million every year that is just one third of the money that we

:39:12.:39:14.

get from all areas, donations from members also. What I am looking at

:39:15.:39:21.

is the Conservative Party that so dislikes the unions, it wants to cut

:39:22.:39:26.

their funding to not just us but in the work they do. If they want to do

:39:27.:39:31.

that, look at parting funding overall but it is ill-conceived to

:39:32.:39:35.

just look at modelling the opposition. I take your point that

:39:36.:39:40.

they are not stopping big donors from giving themselves money but

:39:41.:39:48.

have you not become more dependent on the unions? At one stage we

:39:49.:39:51.

thought you were becoming less so but more than ever, and the leader

:39:52.:39:57.

seems to make that dependency even greater? According to a recent

:39:58.:40:02.

report, Jeremy Corbyn treats big Labour donors with disdain and has

:40:03.:40:09.

abandoned fundraising. We look at all members and supporters for

:40:10.:40:14.

donations but I will not apologise for our relationship with trade

:40:15.:40:17.

unions, we grew out of them and we work together on issues. What I am

:40:18.:40:24.

asking is, are you not becoming overly dependent on them? And

:40:25.:40:28.

becoming vulnerable to this time of action from a Conservative

:40:29.:40:31.

government? Our donations continue to increase, I cannot give you

:40:32.:40:39.

figures, I do not do those sums I cannot remember them. I haven't got

:40:40.:40:45.

a photographic memory! I know the problem! Are you going to block this

:40:46.:40:52.

in the House of Lords? You may not like this but it was in the Tory

:40:53.:40:57.

manifesto? This came from cross-party, let us investigate this

:40:58.:41:02.

properly, let us take not just my word or the word of the Labour

:41:03.:41:06.

Party, let's have a cross-party look at what the Tory party is trying to

:41:07.:41:11.

do and I would put store by that. Let's look at the report on the 29th

:41:12.:41:15.

of the brewery. Thank you very much. -- February.

:41:16.:41:19.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking to an MP

:41:20.:41:21.

from the latest Eurosceptic group hoping to be chosen as the official

:41:22.:41:24.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:41:25.:41:32.

This week we ask whether it's the end of social housing

:41:33.:41:38.

On the final leg of his mayoralty, we take a look

:41:39.:41:49.

at the Mayor's official diary and consider what he's been doing

:41:50.:41:55.

Here this week, Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster

:41:56.:41:58.

North and her constituency neighbour, Mark Field,

:41:59.:42:01.

Conservative MP for the Cities of London and Westminster.

:42:02.:42:07.

Our own cosy little Westminster bubble this week.

:42:08.:42:10.

First up, David Cameron is happy to be judged,

:42:11.:42:12.

I think it is certainly good enough for London.

:42:13.:42:19.

I personally want to stay in the EU, I don't think we're going to get

:42:20.:42:24.

a massive reform and renegotiation programme.

:42:25.:42:25.

Actually, to be honest, David Cameron has got

:42:26.:42:27.

rather more than I thought was likely nine months ago.

:42:28.:42:29.

But I think as far as Londoners are concerned,

:42:30.:42:31.

We recognise the importance of trading.

:42:32.:42:34.

Not just within the EU but also beyond that

:42:35.:42:36.

But I think that realistically, it is in the national

:42:37.:42:40.

interest that we stay members of the EU.

:42:41.:42:42.

It is still seen as very complicated but those in the know

:42:43.:42:45.

seem to suggest that there are pointers there as to what the city

:42:46.:42:48.

Short selling, how much capital ranks

:42:49.:42:50.

There are good signs there that the city has preserved?

:42:51.:42:54.

That is right, there are some positive signs.

:42:55.:42:56.

Also, the key issue of saying that our status as a long-term,

:42:57.:42:59.

probably permanent, member of a group that would be

:43:00.:43:01.

outside the single currency will not impinge upon the city,

:43:02.:43:04.

particularly if there is to be more institutional

:43:05.:43:08.

change within the Eurozone, having had the central Eurozone bank

:43:09.:43:10.

and everything else that follows from

:43:11.:43:14.

On balance, there are a range of issues.

:43:15.:43:20.

I think it is very important for those of us who want to stay

:43:21.:43:23.

in the EU to have an hysterical argument on this.

:43:24.:43:25.

London will be a great capital if we are outside the EU.

:43:26.:43:29.

I just happen to think that it is more

:43:30.:43:36.

risky getting out and broadly, it is in our national interests

:43:37.:43:39.

Would you have thought an emergency brake was necessary to prevent

:43:40.:43:43.

levels of migration reaching the stage in London where people

:43:44.:43:45.

start to say, this is putting pressure on public services?

:43:46.:43:47.

Well, I think we know that the benefits issue,

:43:48.:43:50.

and all the evidence suggest it's a major factor,

:43:51.:43:52.

it is not real, it is something that people have a strong

:43:53.:43:55.

perception about and there has been great media interest in.

:43:56.:43:57.

But it is a bit of a sideshow and I think all of the negotiations

:43:58.:44:00.

were seen so far have been relatively small and I am

:44:01.:44:03.

not overly worried about them and in our manifesto we said

:44:04.:44:06.

we wanted to do something about some of the benefit entitlements as well,

:44:07.:44:10.

to deal with this issue of perception.

:44:11.:44:11.

People wanting to kmow the system is fair.

:44:12.:44:17.

But what we found is we're playing a dangerous game and the whole

:44:18.:44:21.

negotiations on the referendum have very much been about the internal

:44:22.:44:23.

politics of the Conservative Party rather than the

:44:24.:44:25.

interests of either business or the country as a whole.

:44:26.:44:28.

And we have seen from the media reaction this week

:44:29.:44:31.

just how far short it has fallen of what they were hoping to get

:44:32.:44:38.

His views were eagerly sought on the EU

:44:39.:44:43.

Penning a weekly newspaper column, currently writing a book

:44:44.:44:48.

on Shakespeare, a Member of Parliament

:44:49.:44:49.

and, for a little longer, the Mayor of London, too.

:44:50.:44:52.

So what conclusions can one draw from looking at his official diary

:44:53.:44:55.

September 2014, the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, has a weak

:44:56.:45:17.

Thank you very much for awaiting such a long time.

:45:18.:45:22.

I am very pleased to say that the association

:45:23.:45:24.

have done with the honour of picking me to fight the election

:45:25.:45:27.

With all this attention on his return to

:45:28.:45:33.

Parliament, maybe save the inevitable result is that Doris

:45:34.:45:36.

Johnson will become a part-time Mayor.

:45:37.:45:37.

So, to see what difference it really made to his scheduling,

:45:38.:45:40.

Sunday Politics London acquired a copy of the Mayor's diary

:45:41.:45:42.

through a Freedom of Information request.

:45:43.:45:44.

We compared the 12 months starting September 2014,

:45:45.:45:46.

when he was selected to fight Uxbridge and compared

:45:47.:45:48.

However, rather than a drop-off in activity, we counted a slight

:45:49.:45:51.

increase in the number of appointments.

:45:52.:45:53.

But there are questions about how Boris

:45:54.:45:55.

Johnston has chosen to prioritise his time.

:45:56.:45:59.

Obviously, analysing the Mayor s diary doesn't tell you everything

:46:00.:46:01.

about what the Mayor does with his time.

:46:02.:46:03.

On the other hand, it is a piece of minor science and understanding

:46:04.:46:06.

the broad distribution of the Mayor's time in terms

:46:07.:46:09.

of particular issues and so I think in an area of media transparency,

:46:10.:46:14.

all Mayors must expect this kind of analysis.

:46:15.:46:18.

The single biggest thing you could do for London

:46:19.:46:22.

at the moment is to build tens if not

:46:23.:46:24.

The Mayor is fond of saying that his priority is housing.

:46:25.:46:29.

However, our analysis of his diary shows more

:46:30.:46:31.

issues devoted to Conservative Party political liberty than any other

:46:32.:46:34.

This compares to 223 for transport, 197 for meeting the media

:46:35.:46:45.

and housing a distant fourth, with just

:46:46.:46:46.

Labour say he has got his priorities wrong.

:46:47.:46:58.

He is spending more time on Conservative Party

:46:59.:47:02.

activities or meeting with the Preston dealing with issues

:47:03.:47:04.

And what we can see is that he has been

:47:05.:47:07.

demob happy but that is not just over the election,

:47:08.:47:10.

City Hall told us that just looking at entries marked in the diary

:47:11.:47:15.

You're drawing conclusions from the title

:47:16.:47:19.

of a meeting or who that meeting is with.

:47:20.:47:21.

What is quite clear is that a part of the Mayor's work is through those

:47:22.:47:25.

meetings, and there are thousands

:47:26.:47:29.

And in addition to that he will be meeting

:47:30.:47:35.

with senior advisers, talking to people, driving

:47:36.:47:38.

But perhaps more than the number of diary entries

:47:39.:47:44.

dedicated to issues like housing is Boris Johnson's record that

:47:45.:47:47.

Indeed, but let us look at this minor piece of science.

:47:48.:47:55.

I think the delivery is were the problem is rather

:47:56.:48:03.

than the diary and I think it sort of reflects the fact

:48:04.:48:06.

that he is a man, he is a showman and a

:48:07.:48:10.

character who simply has not spent time and effort getting to grips

:48:11.:48:13.

with the very serious problems that London faces.

:48:14.:48:16.

That has certainly been true in his last year,

:48:17.:48:18.

he has diffused his energies coming into

:48:19.:48:20.

Parliament and he has let things slip.

:48:21.:48:22.

Look at what is happening in London, there are 10,000 people

:48:23.:48:24.

dying every year from pollution violent crime is going up.

:48:25.:48:27.

We're just not seeing any real focus from

:48:28.:48:29.

Boris on those issues and I think that diary pretty well tells us

:48:30.:48:32.

where his energy and priorities have been.

:48:33.:48:35.

To coin a phrase, this is an inverted pyramid

:48:36.:48:39.

Boris, of course, has party activity, everyone has party

:48:40.:48:47.

activity in the run-up to an election and if he was going

:48:48.:48:52.

to be the MP for the Outer Hebrides, I could say, yes, you are splitting

:48:53.:48:55.

But let's be honest, the priorities that

:48:56.:48:58.

he has as the Mayor of London are not dissimilar to the ones

:48:59.:49:01.

One of the great things about Boris Johnson,

:49:02.:49:08.

as everyone who has known him, and I have known over half

:49:09.:49:11.

my life because we were at university together and beyond,

:49:12.:49:13.

He has a great team around him from the days

:49:14.:49:17.

of being president of the Oxford union to being editor

:49:18.:49:19.

of The Spectator to being Mayor of London.

:49:20.:49:21.

He has got very good people around him.

:49:22.:49:23.

He gives the strategic overview and they get on and do quite a lot

:49:24.:49:26.

So this really is an absolute nonstory.

:49:27.:49:29.

I think Boris has been utterly focused right through and obviously,

:49:30.:49:33.

we're now in a position in the last few months of the Mayorlty,

:49:34.:49:36.

he has a whole range of issues from Crossrail to issues

:49:37.:49:40.

to do with housing, which I think the record is strong,

:49:41.:49:44.

particularly in the last two or three years.

:49:45.:49:46.

So very briefly, what is wrong with delegating if you get

:49:47.:49:48.

There is nothing wrong with delegating.

:49:49.:49:51.

We have this incredible city which faces a lot of challenges

:49:52.:49:54.

and I just think that Londoners deserve someone who is fully focused

:49:55.:49:57.

Of course that does not mean that every minute

:49:58.:50:00.

is going to be spent without doing any party meetings or media,

:50:01.:50:02.

But it is also to do with the issues, the concern that

:50:03.:50:08.

Things like crime and pollution that Boris does not

:50:09.:50:11.

The Government's Housing Bill, which starts being considered

:50:12.:50:17.

in the House of Lords this week, risks bringing

:50:18.:50:19.

about the end of social housing as we know it.

:50:20.:50:22.

That, according to Lord Kerslake, formerly the country's

:50:23.:50:24.

He now chairs the Peabody Housing Association and is leading

:50:25.:50:27.

a research project for the IPPR think-tank on what the answers are.

:50:28.:50:30.

After the Second World War, there was a major

:50:31.:50:39.

programme of public sector house-building to improve

:50:40.:50:41.

the quality of housing for ordinary people.

:50:42.:50:46.

There was also a major private sector house-building programme

:50:47.:50:49.

and these two went together to see the highest levels of new housing

:50:50.:50:53.

supply that we'd seen for a long period.

:50:54.:50:56.

But today, London is in the midst of a full-scale housing crisis,

:50:57.:51:02.

with the prices to buy and to rent moving

:51:03.:51:05.

The Housing Bill, whilst it has some good things in it,

:51:06.:51:11.

is essentially focused on favouring one type of housing -

:51:12.:51:15.

home ownership - at the expense of another, social rented.

:51:16.:51:20.

Thus ending the post-war consensus that we needed to build houses

:51:21.:51:25.

of all types in order to meet the different needs of Londoners.

:51:26.:51:31.

The Housing Bill opens up housing association properties

:51:32.:51:33.

The funding of the discounts for those right to buy properties

:51:34.:51:40.

will be paid for by forcing local authorities to sell their council

:51:41.:51:44.

stock when it becomes vacant. Because house prices in London

:51:45.:51:51.

are so high, it's likely that London will be funding over half

:51:52.:51:56.

of the cost of this new initiative and, in some boroughs,

:51:57.:52:01.

such as Westminster and Camden, it's possible that up to two thirds

:52:02.:52:05.

of council houses will be forced to be sold.

:52:06.:52:12.

The Government say they want to replace every

:52:13.:52:14.

council house sold with two new houses.

:52:15.:52:17.

However, the new houses are very unlikely to be in the same

:52:18.:52:22.

neighbourhoods as the houses that are sold, nor are they likely to be

:52:23.:52:26.

If they're one of the new starter homes, then the housing

:52:27.:52:35.

charity Shelter have said that you would need a salary of 77,0 0

:52:36.:52:38.

That's not affordable for the majority of

:52:39.:52:49.

When you combine these new policies, the extension of right to buy

:52:50.:52:53.

to housing associations, the forced sale of council

:52:54.:52:55.

properties to pay for the right to buy discounts and changes

:52:56.:53:00.

to the way tenancies work for new tenants and put that

:53:01.:53:03.

alongside the existing housing crisis, then I think

:53:04.:53:07.

ordinary Londoners are going to ask where the housing of the future

:53:08.:53:11.

I'm joined by Bill Davies from the think tank the Institute

:53:12.:53:20.

for Public Policy Research, working with Lord Kerslake

:53:21.:53:22.

Let's just bury down into this detail about how this might impact

:53:23.:53:27.

Because of the value of the homes, more might be sold.

:53:28.:53:31.

The money from that will then be used to fund the policy up

:53:32.:53:34.

There's a connection between Right to Buy voluntary deal

:53:35.:53:40.

for housing associations that needs to be funded,

:53:41.:53:42.

effectively by selling off high-value council homes,

:53:43.:53:46.

so in order to fund that policy, which is

:53:47.:53:49.

just at pilot stage at the moment, they will need to sell quite a lot

:53:50.:53:52.

And we know where a lot of the high-value homes are,

:53:53.:53:57.

We heard a figure there of about two thirds,

:53:58.:54:06.

or a suggestion two thirds in Westminster and Camden -

:54:07.:54:08.

we will come onto our Westminster MPs

:54:09.:54:10.

in a moment - but presumably that number isn't going to become vacant

:54:11.:54:13.

Two thirds is an awful lot, isn't it?

:54:14.:54:16.

Two thirds are technically in scope to be those kind of high-value

:54:17.:54:20.

properties that will be needed but they can see rates are actually

:54:21.:54:23.

really quite low, especially in high-value homes,

:54:24.:54:25.

and I think we need a lot of those high-value homes

:54:26.:54:27.

to keep down the housing benefit bill, too.

:54:28.:54:29.

They will often be quite large and house families that would be

:54:30.:54:32.

extremely expensive to move into the private rented sector,

:54:33.:54:34.

so a lot of those properties are actually

:54:35.:54:36.

And what are the early signals if, as Lord Kerslake suggests,

:54:37.:54:41.

it's going to be very difficult to replace the one that you get rid

:54:42.:54:44.

of with two, and if you do, certainly

:54:45.:54:47.

What's the outcome of the consequences of that,

:54:48.:54:54.

I think we've seen from past programmes where homes

:54:55.:55:01.

have been sold - for instance, right to buy in the 1980s,

:55:02.:55:04.

1990s and 2000s - that it's really difficult to replace

:55:05.:55:06.

Even if you get the kind of receipts that you need to be able to deliver

:55:07.:55:11.

time you got round to delivering it, land prices in London are so high

:55:12.:55:15.

and rising so quickly that replacing that is going to be

:55:16.:55:18.

So it's not just a kind of issue of technically,

:55:19.:55:23.

It's also about the rising values of homes that does

:55:24.:55:26.

make it a lot more difficult to deliver.

:55:27.:55:28.

Your thoughts on what the potential impact of this could be?

:55:29.:55:31.

Well, it's a further downward spiral in the story of social housing.

:55:32.:55:35.

We've lost almost a half of the social housing stock in large

:55:36.:55:38.

parts of London over a long period of

:55:39.:55:40.

As Bill has said, one of the immediate impact of that is,

:55:41.:55:44.

we're spending money on supporting low-income households in private

:55:45.:55:48.

sector housing, which is vastly more expensive.

:55:49.:55:51.

So you've got a housing benefit bill that soared up to ?24

:55:52.:55:54.

If we see a further loss - and it won't happen overnight -

:55:55.:55:59.

either the right to buy and housing association properties

:56:00.:56:02.

or the high-value homes being sold, we will

:56:03.:56:06.

see a further backing up of families who simply can't afford to buy

:56:07.:56:11.

into a very high cost private rented sector,

:56:12.:56:14.

and the taxpayer ends up funding that.

:56:15.:56:17.

So it's a very, very foolish thing to do and it does mean

:56:18.:56:20.

a huge number of people simply can't afford to buy these kind of values

:56:21.:56:24.

I think you are being overly negative.

:56:25.:56:28.

I think there's a lot of good in this

:56:29.:56:33.

Housing and Planning Bill but I do accept there are some exceptions

:56:34.:56:36.

We have a very skewed housing market, becoming even more polarised

:56:37.:56:40.

in the time that Karen and I in the last decade and a half

:56:41.:56:43.

or more have been local MPs, between the very rich -

:56:44.:56:46.

is a global capital now - and those who are qualifying

:56:47.:56:50.

And actually, the biggest losers in our constituency are the private

:56:51.:56:53.

renters, people who have to rent and are often paying three

:56:54.:56:56.

times as much as people in social housing for almost the selfsame

:56:57.:56:59.

So I think we need to look at this whole aspect of intermediate

:57:00.:57:03.

housing, and the truth is quite a lot of housing associations have

:57:04.:57:06.

got no idea who is living in their stock

:57:07.:57:08.

There is a lot of illegal subletting that goes on,

:57:09.:57:11.

which isn't an ideal situation, either.

:57:12.:57:13.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but there's no evidence that it s

:57:14.:57:17.

Well, dare I say it, most of the providers,

:57:18.:57:20.

providing they get the money coming through

:57:21.:57:21.

the door, they don't ask any questions, and some of that money

:57:22.:57:24.

often comes from the housing benefit bill, to which you've referred

:57:25.:57:27.

as well, which is, again, part of the

:57:28.:57:29.

It really is an absolute mess that is in place.

:57:30.:57:32.

Listen, we're both parents of children and we look

:57:33.:57:34.

at the opportunities we had to buy property that,

:57:35.:57:37.

you know, like many central Londoners think, "How

:57:38.:57:38.

are my children ever going to get on the

:57:39.:57:41.

I think it is right that the Government are trying

:57:42.:57:45.

to address this but I do accept that there are some specific

:57:46.:57:48.

exceptions for bits of central London and I'd

:57:49.:57:50.

like to see local authorities, perhaps throughout central London,

:57:51.:57:52.

not necessarily on one by one basis, but across the party political

:57:53.:57:56.

divide, being able to give some thought to how they make this work

:57:57.:58:00.

and I think we'll see some of that in the House of Lords.

:58:01.:58:03.

I think it's absolutely right that we address the issue

:58:04.:58:06.

of affordable homeownership as well as homes to rent.

:58:07.:58:08.

We are in a critical situation on both of those.

:58:09.:58:12.

I think there was some research done by Shelter last week that showed

:58:13.:58:15.

nine out of ten London parents fear that their children are not

:58:16.:58:18.

going to be able to find a home in London.

:58:19.:58:20.

But this housing bill, as Bob Kerslake showed in his film,

:58:21.:58:23.

is saying that affordable so-called homes to buy can be

:58:24.:58:27.

Yeah, but in central London that's going to be what it comes in us

:58:28.:58:35.

You need to earn more than Mark and I do as members of Parliament

:58:36.:58:41.

to be able to afford to buy a home that is deemed

:58:42.:58:43.

What is the point of the starter homes thing, then?

:58:44.:58:49.

Listen, I think we have to do something.

:58:50.:58:51.

We cannot simply say, the starter home

:58:52.:58:53.

initiative just won't apply to certain parts of the country

:58:54.:58:56.

And I accept it is a very expensive part

:58:57.:58:58.

And it has become a lot more expensive in the days gone by.

:58:59.:59:04.

But we have to make a move somewhere along the line.

:59:05.:59:07.

But I think there needs to be some recognition within this legislation

:59:08.:59:10.

that the issues that face London, particularly central

:59:11.:59:12.

London, are fundamentally different in nature.

:59:13.:59:14.

Do you think, if you were honest, that in ten years there

:59:15.:59:17.

would be quite a considerably different composition

:59:18.:59:19.

in your wards, in terms of housing and housing stock?

:59:20.:59:28.

I think it will be a little bit different.

:59:29.:59:30.

It would be naive to suggest that there won't

:59:31.:59:32.

be some diminishing in the social housing stock but I think that's

:59:33.:59:35.

because a lot of that will be driven by availability coming up

:59:36.:59:38.

at a particular time and I think that

:59:39.:59:41.

across the party political divide, I don't think there is a sense

:59:42.:59:44.

that we don't want to have a borough that is

:59:45.:59:46.

just made up of the rich and perhaps even people who are letting property

:59:47.:59:50.

who are living overseas, that would be a very bad state

:59:51.:59:53.

of affairs and I think we have to try to clamp down

:59:54.:59:56.

But you touched on one thing already, of course.

:59:57.:59:59.

This process of selling council stock.

:00:00.:00:01.

It happened quite slowly and people will not necessarily notice it?

:00:02.:00:03.

I am not saying it will happen overnight

:00:04.:00:09.

because what is happening, the London housing market is very

:00:10.:00:11.

different to what it was when Right to Buy was happening

:00:12.:00:14.

There is a lot of investor money out there and one of the things

:00:15.:00:19.

we absolutely know is that ex-Right to Buy properties,

:00:20.:00:22.

around one third of those in some areas are not back

:00:23.:00:25.

This doesn't actually help home ownership.

:00:26.:00:31.

What it does is it further fuels the minority who can

:00:32.:00:35.

afford either as companies or individuals, who can afford

:00:36.:00:37.

to buy these properties and then they let

:00:38.:00:41.

The challenge of how you're going to sell this...

:00:42.:00:53.

There are a range of challenges across such a wide range

:00:54.:00:55.

of factors that there is no one silver bullet that's going to fix

:00:56.:00:58.

The Housing Commission at the moment are

:00:59.:01:04.

But what is clear is that we need the London housing market

:01:05.:01:10.

We need more social housing, we need more intermediate homes that

:01:11.:01:14.

people can buy and rent but we also need more

:01:15.:01:16.

But it has to come from a range of policy measures across land

:01:17.:01:20.

planning, construction capacity and new developers.

:01:21.:01:21.

We will be looking at that in more detail in future.

:01:22.:01:24.

Transport for London announced new policies

:01:25.:01:42.

Including developing a world leading safety

:01:43.:01:47.

standard for London, updating bus contracts to include

:01:48.:01:49.

new safety incentives and providing a UK first

:01:50.:01:51.

Some residents in Hampstead want a degree

:01:52.:01:58.

of independence from the rest of Camden.

:01:59.:02:02.

They want Hampstead to become a parish council, in part,

:02:03.:02:04.

to have more say over local development on

:02:05.:02:06.

7.5% of residents need to sign up for the proposal

:02:07.:02:12.

before it can go in front of Camden Council.

:02:13.:02:16.

Labour's mayoral candidate, the MP for Tooting, Sadiq Khan,

:02:17.:02:19.

said he has set out his vision for London.

:02:20.:02:23.

He plans to revive former Mayor Ken Livingstone's affordable

:02:24.:02:25.

He said that half of all new homes in the capital

:02:26.:02:30.

He also pledged to make it easier and

:02:31.:02:36.

cheaper to part buy, part rent a new home.

:02:37.:02:43.

Go on, let's talk about the mayoral contest.

:02:44.:02:46.

Who has got the answers to London's housing

:02:47.:02:48.

I think Zac's got some very good answers.

:02:49.:02:52.

Not least because I think he's going to work with central government

:02:53.:02:55.

It is all very well spouting off, saying, "this is what I want to do,"

:02:56.:02:58.

but you have to work with whoever is in

:02:59.:03:01.

government and clearly there is a Conservative government

:03:02.:03:03.

there and the fact that Zac has been able to

:03:04.:03:05.

ensure that there are changes to the Housing and Planning Bill

:03:06.:03:08.

that are very much focused on what he wants

:03:09.:03:10.

to do in London suggests that he has a plan.

:03:11.:03:12.

I don't think you want the Conservative

:03:13.:03:15.

government's representative in London.

:03:16.:03:18.

You want a mayor who will champion London to government and Sadiq Khan

:03:19.:03:21.

has got the experience and an incredible story.

:03:22.:03:25.

He is the story of London, from a council

:03:26.:03:27.

house to a homeowner - he understands both sides of it

:03:28.:03:30.

He's got a plan, which is about working sure that developers

:03:31.:03:33.

targets for 50% of affordable housing and giving Londoners first

:03:34.:03:39.

Getting a new rental model in, which is tied to a third

:03:40.:03:45.

of average rents to meet some of those intermediate

:03:46.:03:47.

For the first time in this campaign, you think people will try

:03:48.:03:51.

Because it is a complex issue with housing,

:03:52.:03:54.

the things that people will want to know?

:03:55.:03:57.

One of the problems is, he may have a plan but can

:03:58.:04:00.

And also, to be honest, one of the perennial problems

:04:01.:04:03.

of the mayoralty is the actually you have very

:04:04.:04:05.

little power and in housing, you're in the hands of the government

:04:06.:04:08.

policing side and transportation and on strategic planning issues,

:04:09.:04:13.

but a lot of this is not about strategic

:04:14.:04:15.

overview, it is about the real nitty-gritty of how to get more

:04:16.:04:19.

and more houses in each and every one of the London boroughs.

:04:20.:04:21.

It has been a pleasure, thanks very much indeed.

:04:22.:04:24.

And with that, Andrew, it's back to you.

:04:25.:04:33.

If you believe some of the polls - and we're not much inclined to these

:04:34.:04:37.

days - those arguing for Britain to leave the EU could be ahead

:04:38.:04:40.

of those who want us to remain a member.

:04:41.:04:42.

If true, it can't have much to do with the unity shown by those

:04:43.:04:46.

jostling to be picked as the official, designated leave

:04:47.:04:50.

campaign, as they've spent all week fighting like ferrets in a sack

:04:51.:04:56.

UKIP MP Douglas Carswell was speaking to Andrew Marr earlier

:04:57.:04:59.

about one of the newer leave groups, called Grassroots Out or GO

:05:00.:05:03.

for short, which is hoping to be chosen.

:05:04.:05:07.

I was out at the weekend and the weekend before

:05:08.:05:12.

We've got a great ground game in Vote Leave.

:05:13.:05:15.

We've delivered millions of leaflets.

:05:16.:05:16.

I'm not going to be disrespectful of any

:05:17.:05:19.

They're led by people who've done this before.

:05:20.:05:24.

And I think what's important is that we make sure that people

:05:25.:05:27.

realise that David Cameron's deal is pretty duff.

:05:28.:05:37.

Well, Peter Bone is one of the MPs behind GO.

:05:38.:05:39.

Why should you get the official designation? Were not united and

:05:40.:05:59.

still 37, 43%, but it looks good, there are 42 grassroot campaigns

:06:00.:06:11.

made up of different people, and I think who should get designation, it

:06:12.:06:16.

is an establishment view that you have to have a top-down organisation

:06:17.:06:23.

like BSE, imposed from the top, there was nobody going out on the

:06:24.:06:29.

February morning is knocking on doors, there are 42 campaigns so

:06:30.:06:37.

this is from the grassroots up. It is not another campaigning

:06:38.:06:41.

organisation bringing everyone together and they still have

:06:42.:06:45.

independence. With this umbrella stop you from knocking each other?

:06:46.:06:52.

Aaron Banks, he has put money into Grassroots Out? It is funded by a

:06:53.:06:57.

number of individuals. Conservative donors... Here's one of them and he

:06:58.:07:08.

said that people in vote leave where two of the nastiest individuals I

:07:09.:07:14.

ever had the misfortune to leave. Kate Hoey, voting to quit. She is

:07:15.:07:27.

also voting for Vote Leave. Let us bring everyone together, this has to

:07:28.:07:33.

stop, last week whenever we had 100 people from all of the different

:07:34.:07:37.

groups and parties working together, why cannot we get that at the top?

:07:38.:07:42.

One happy family working under the grassroots movement. You have that

:07:43.:07:49.

bright Grassroots Out tie on. This picture has more than just a tie on

:07:50.:07:56.

it. One of your colleagues, launching the campaign with the

:07:57.:08:01.

Union Jack jacket. People might remember the John Redwood leadership

:08:02.:08:07.

campaign would wonder if politicians want to be seen on the same platform

:08:08.:08:15.

as that? People are going out across the country, campaigning to come out

:08:16.:08:20.

of the EU. Not looking like that, looking like me! No, they don't want

:08:21.:08:27.

to look like me! Is this just journalist from? The poll has them

:08:28.:08:38.

ahead? The Electoral Commission in the next few weeks will have to

:08:39.:08:41.

designate one of these groups as the main out and in group and both sides

:08:42.:08:48.

are fighting like bad. The danger for the leaving camp is the group to

:08:49.:08:54.

win this referendum will be the group that wins the argument that it

:08:55.:08:59.

represents the safest option and the losing group will be portrayed as

:09:00.:09:03.

the riskiest. People like Douglas Carswell or deeply fearful of Nigel

:09:04.:09:07.

Farage as one of the main figures on the outside because in a good day he

:09:08.:09:13.

can get 30% of the electorate and that is why Grassroots Out is

:09:14.:09:21.

established, because the Aaron Banks group, he is funding the other group

:09:22.:09:27.

which has cross-party support and that will be important. Vote Leave,

:09:28.:09:34.

the more stable, steady safer option is now struggling on the cross-party

:09:35.:09:43.

option, particularly in that box. How do you know all that) it is also

:09:44.:09:52.

quite true. Why are you talking about the personalities and the

:09:53.:09:54.

policies and that is a reflection of, when we talk about policies

:09:55.:10:01.

people would enter a coma. Neither side has key messages, I don't think

:10:02.:10:07.

you could stop 100 people in the street and one could tell you

:10:08.:10:09.

anything that was in this and that is why we talk about personalities.

:10:10.:10:15.

We are doing our best! We have always exaggerated the importance of

:10:16.:10:21.

campaigns on election results and referendums and last I was told that

:10:22.:10:25.

because of Labour's assiduous work at ground level they would end up

:10:26.:10:32.

counteracting disadvantages like leadership and economic credibility

:10:33.:10:35.

so I have never believed that the internal rivalry would really hold

:10:36.:10:40.

them back and recent opinion polls have stood up to that. What really

:10:41.:10:43.

goes on their favour is the nature of the deal that David Cameron

:10:44.:10:51.

extracted last week because it is less impressive than was instigated

:10:52.:10:55.

in the Bloomberg speech and it will have to fight the referendum on the

:10:56.:11:00.

existing terms of membership and I think he can win that but he would

:11:01.:11:04.

have gone into the last four months of this campaign with something

:11:05.:11:08.

drastically different and not cosmetically different. That is

:11:09.:11:12.

right, the fundamental issues will be debated and we are all innovative

:11:13.:11:18.

this Westminster bubble thinking that Joe Bloggs says this and it

:11:19.:11:23.

matters but on the street, nobody can name any of these campaigns and

:11:24.:11:28.

the simple question is, in or out were undecided? That is what we re

:11:29.:11:33.

finding and a lot of people are undecided who say we have not heard

:11:34.:11:36.

the arguments and we clearly have to get our message out on leaving and

:11:37.:11:42.

that does concern emigration and controlling borders but also the

:11:43.:11:47.

fact that we pay 55th -- ?55 million every week to Europe and get

:11:48.:11:52.

nothing. You get half of that act. We don't. You do! We get a bit of

:11:53.:12:00.

that back. They decide how we spend it. You get it back as a rebate and

:12:01.:12:07.

you also get it back in funding from the EU? The facts will matter. How

:12:08.:12:16.

many billions of pounds each week goes to the EU that we have no

:12:17.:12:20.

control over? You said the gross figures... The net figure is about

:12:21.:12:28.

half of that. It is not. If you go into the detail I can assure you it

:12:29.:12:33.

is. Can you win this without any front person? Behead Minister of is

:12:34.:12:40.

heading up the game campaign. If he does not get what he wants he will

:12:41.:12:44.

be heading up the Grassroots Out campaign. -- I will be. You are not

:12:45.:12:53.

holding your breath. Who should be heading up your side? I don't want

:12:54.:12:58.

any figurehead. Who would debate with the Prime Minister? It depends

:12:59.:13:03.

on the issues. In or out, how about that? If you are talking about

:13:04.:13:10.

dozens, a businessman, trade unions, somebody from Labour Leave. Belgian

:13:11.:13:16.

rambler that a government... I will have to stop you expect thanks to

:13:17.:13:20.

all of the guests. Join us next Sunday at 11,

:13:21.:13:23.

when we'll be taking stock made by the Conservatives at last

:13:24.:13:26.

year's election and asking Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:27.:13:30.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:31.:13:34.

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