03/07/2016 Sunday Politics London

Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,

after a Leave vote in the referendum.

Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds

to talk to the media, this is embarassing.

He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet

When will one of his rebellious MPs make a move against him?

In London, another Heathrow delay -

but the man who recommended expansion says he hopes

the new prime minister will decide in the national interest.

And with me, three political journalists, key lieutenants

who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting

them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -

Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.

So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership

candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job

Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two

who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership

This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.

We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,

but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for

business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.

It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to

upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to

establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 5 ,

once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to

two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which

is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have

the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in

this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was

place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my

candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own

ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.

Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the

country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain

should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to

taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto

to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a

commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust

is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that

and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.

Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking

to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.

Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May

consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way

that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael

Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate I

think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we

have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way

he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal

ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do

with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave And

most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an

honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away

from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible

moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for

Boris Johnson. And this morning instead of wanting to try and talk

about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime

Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over

last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or

not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the

narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother

in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very

different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead

bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now

Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar

schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three

out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away

from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.

She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is

that he's good at taking people s legs from underneath them. He is

competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion

That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into

trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue

with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a

question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years

ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree

with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an

impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast

herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the

events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a

Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting

into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in

the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.

That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and

Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the

country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom

or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the

dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the

Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake

that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move

on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party It

serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are

two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you

could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they

can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see

anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final

ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow

others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that

presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell

you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any

particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of

movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers

will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other

side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea

Leadsom to be excited. Boringly Theresa May. And you are just being

contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.

Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood

Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.

If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,

we must fully implement the instruction given to us

for membership of the single market

if it entails the movement of people.

Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,

Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first

to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the

result is. If you remember 2005 they were all wrong then. The reason

I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the

referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also

have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in

netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.

Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after

this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will

have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more

than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into

perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an

extension of the European Union This is a government having to make

serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing

you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.

Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's

oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers

will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,

because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is

a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most

important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are

three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea

Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office I

understand how European mechanics operates. We are now seeing the road

ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before

you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation

between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and

a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European

Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade

Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with

Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be

detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a

crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the

commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who

have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk

about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article

50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can

we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you

want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain

prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true

that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even

President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must

expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new

Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I

don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.

That was rejected by the public So we have to say to the European

Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a

way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But

there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less

than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,

but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas

in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we

had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have

quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of

the things we will have to understand. If we introduce

restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be

restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other

direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you

her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have

accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like

this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion

between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with

Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to

Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime

Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the

Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a

very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in

the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of

compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective

government. What's most important quality for

the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience

They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So

the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It

is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think

the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?

If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to

take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European

Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after

Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me

to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,

but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which

one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on

Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it

known in the usual way. You don t know yet? If I know I'm not going to

tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to

emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an

overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority

among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the

country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think

the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country

would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to

be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I

think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary

party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it

mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but

it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12

days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much

has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.

Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,

the stand-off continues in the Labour Party

with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party

expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up

Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns

I think people may look back on this week as the week

when the Labour Party committed suicide.

He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,

The Labour Party are being ripped apart...

sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations

ahead of this EU referendum debate.

and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me

in internal manoeuvring at this time.

In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.

Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.

at a meeting with his party behind closed doors

on the eve of a no-confidence vote

his battle with his own colleagues worsened.

It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,

where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,

"I like you, you've always been my friend.

I appreciate what you've tried to do,

but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".

With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack

He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.

And between takes, a critic of his leadership,

his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.

I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.

The whole of the rest of the world is against them.

They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.

They are interested in the Falklands.

They are interested in a whole range of things like that.

But they are not interested and have very little understanding

of the processes of Westminster politics.

On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,

the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.

Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.

Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,

I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,

It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,

On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger

Are you going to stand for the leadership?

I'll be saying something later today.

It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours

We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,

four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,

have gone into his office and are trying

As it happened, they weren't invited in.

Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated

and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested

retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.

no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.

We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear

a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,

the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed

a new generation of politicians to come forward.

This has given opportunities to people like Barry,

who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,

And they're rising to the challenge effectively.

These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.

You talked about the movement, rather than the party.

Is that usurping traditional party structures?

The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass

basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine

it is something that engages in the wider community.

If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more

than have soundbites and a polished media performance

It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John

They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.

With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,

over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.

But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think

Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job

Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn

still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that

Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.

I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal

to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.

How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?

He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour

MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in

the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the

Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never

actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations

that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,

but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not

just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as

well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where

we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have

seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today

saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as

well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone

who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best

interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which

needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have

seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own

problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris

stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental

issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this

country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,

you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John

Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be

the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general

principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr

Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what

I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.

The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had

against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like. .

To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party

members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up

with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party

membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his

responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular

mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a

suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow

we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings

both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn s

legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could

continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking

about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That

is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to

negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants

Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation

has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to

do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is

in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure

Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to

happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and

credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the

country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound

falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future

negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need

to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,

at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a

credible opposition. And we don t have a credible government, they are

squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in

politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a

contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he

cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have

a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things

either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?

That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered

agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I

don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved

on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he

led the Labour Party into government, and he won those

collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not

where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If

there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as

a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?

I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader

of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge

Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the

candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not

only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the

interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence

motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you

didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you

keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic

problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is

that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated

your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are

certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may

not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider

electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you

look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit

like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in

both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are

seeing entries into the party. - entryism. And there has been, but

those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't

want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can

destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this

rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing

in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out

with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and

talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a

while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.

When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the

end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.

I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations

Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting

times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -

the General Secretary of the Unite union,

Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn

was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed

to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be

part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this

has been a political Undermined, humiliated,

attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made

of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that

he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned

from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr

Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It

seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able

to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable

position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability

of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them

leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an

opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get

more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.

The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam

would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to

the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don t

want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on

the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which

shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to

go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not

only in the Parliamentary party more than 80% of MPs, this has never

happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That

means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason

why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations

from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that

much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the

incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political

will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge

for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend

your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the

same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would

be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary

democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the

Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the

membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking

to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.

Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have

cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,

but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and

they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.

Let's see how the dominoes fall No, because that brings us to the same

position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to

have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the

writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you

go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when

seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only

appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you

and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the

logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the

wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any

other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps

Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a

motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who

are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of

standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of

that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you

are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I

am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his

broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into

recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go

further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs

on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party

conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy

is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who

can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of

the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for

the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which

might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government

which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you

were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable

thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years

ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third

way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply

need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as

if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what

happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy

will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he

appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with

honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of

the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the

other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this

is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with

decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If

he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what

happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour

Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I

think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in

my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that

matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last

week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about

how we could change the country for the better, and they will have

nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds

possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary

democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade

unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to

change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That

is what I still believe in. But the leader of the Labour Party has to

convince voters that we have a compelling vision for the future of

this country. And Jeremy is unable to do that. Many of his policies, I

would support. I want us to change the language around public

expenditure and the public sector. Many parts of the country feel no

elected and there are angry people who want to vote Labour, but are not

convinced -- they feel neglected. As things stand, even with chaos in the

governing party, you would need a miracle to win in 2020. I believe in

miracles. And the most important miracle is that Jeremy can break the

logjam. You still don't want to hit Ed Miliband smack you have changed

your mind on that. I don't. I wish the Labour Party were not where they

are, because I can do nothing for the Rhondda. May your God go with

you. It's coming up to 11:40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland, who leave us now I'll be talking to the former deputy

leader of the First, though, the Sunday

Politics where you are. This week, we continue

to try to fathom what Brexit And here was one thing

that happened... A decision on Heathrow

expansion put off again, But Sir Howard Davies

tells us he hopes the two Joining me for the duration,

former transport minister Jim Fitzpatrick, Labour MP

for Poplar and Limehouse, and Immigration Minister,

James Brokenshire, Conservative MP James, what did you think when you

saw the way Boris Johnson was disposed of this week? It has been

an extraordinary week with all of the changes that have taken place. I

am supporting Theresa May for the leadership of the Conservative Party

to be our next Prime Minister. So when you heard what happened to

Boris Johnson, what did you think? Well, Boris has been such a big

figure in the Conservative Party for so long. I hope he will still have a

role to play. Surprise, shock. It was extraordinary that Boris, having

set up in terms of running for the Conservative leadership, suddenly

now not to be running. And now that your candidate could win? We are not

taking anything for granted. It is important that we get out to sell

the message of what Theresa will do, the experience she has, how she

would be a leader from day one. But it is important to underline that

sense of unity of the party and the country coming together. I believe

Theresa May has those qualities but we will need to see what

Conservative MPs say this week. It is now that study approach in

undermining the strength that Theresa has. Jim Fitzpatrick, the

next steps for your party? Well the ball is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. He

has lost over 60 of his shadow ministers including most of his

Shadow Cabinet. He has lost lost the support of many of his previous

supporters within the Parliamentary Labour Party. There seems to be a

groundswell outside which is not as supportive of him as previously But

he is supported by the membership. Well, there is some evidence that

the membership are moving. It remains to be seen. The only person

who can break the logjam is Jeremy. He has lost the confidence of the

dressing room, to use a football analogy, and his team will not play

for him. But Barry Gardiner says this is an

offence against democracy, what you have been doing? The ministers have

tried for nine months and ultimately they have said it is just not going

to work and on what basis they have said we will not be part of it.

Surely the next Prime Minister has to be someone who voted for Brexit?

No, they have to have the right qualities and I think Theresa has

those qualities. 17 million people voted for it, the key quality has to

have made that decision to lead that battle? But this is about choosing

Prime Minister, this is how we get the best possible deal for London

and the country, very much at the forefront, but it's also about

national security. Theresa May has those qualities, but it's also how

she will set up a separate department led by someone who

advocated Brexit and they can reunify the country as well. It s

like you have read the script! Let's move on.

The Mayor, Sadiq Khan, said this week that Brexit

for more powers to be devolved to London - that is to

He hijacked a Leave slogan and said it was time to "take back control".

As the petition calling for London to declare independence reached

almost 200,000 signatories this week, the Mayor outlined

Londoners who voted for a different path than the rest of England need

We need to control our own destiny, we need

The Mayor is backing calls to keep all business rate

income, stamp duty income, and revalue council tax.

He also wants to borrow more for infrastructure

like transport, and also take over suburban railway services.

Sadiq Khan has urged the Government to move fast on devolution

and he asserts that London cannot afford to hang around

The former mayor Boris Johnson's chief economic adviser,

Welcome to you, and impossible before we get onto some of the

economics and devolution issues about the man to not ask what you

think about that? Obviously it is disappointing he has not continued

with his campaign but to be honest policies matter more than

personalities. I think Andrea Leadsom is a very good candidate,

she brings forward the Brexit case. Rather than Michael Gove? In my

view, yes. Brexit is not only positive for London but for the UK.

Boris was a very good Mayor of London but we are in a new situation

now and I think Andrea is a very good candidate. Any comment about

why Boris Johnson pulled out? I don't have an Ian -- any more

information on that then you have. Obviously you helped him a lot in

terms of the Leave campaign and supplied a lot of the intellectual

ballast, are you disappointed that he didn't go ahead and stand? As I

say, I admire Boris on economic issues, bought at the end of the day

life is more than personalities Obviously I think he would have done

very well but I think there are other good candidates as well.

Coming back to your question, and my disappointed, the most important

thing is for the country has voted for Brexit. One has to be mindful

about the fact 48% of people voted to Remain but we need to move

forward and leave the European Union. The best way is to invoke

article 50 to try to make it clear we will not try to reverse that

decision. When? Immediately? We cannot have political stability

until the new Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition are in

place. I would personally like to see that speeded up but it's not

possible it seems. When we have political stability we can start to

implement policies. The major report you did for Boris Johnson a couple

of years ago made clear that the best option would be to stay in the

EU as long as it was reformed and the second-best option was obviously

that you could come out and really negotiate very well. Do you still

stick by that? To be clear. In terms of the scenarios, I stressed that

leaving would be an economic shock, and the Treasury Select Committee

refer to my comments in their report, and I said the best two

scenarios by a long way were either to be in a truly reformed European

Union or to be global with Brexit and both of those were considerably

better than staying in an EU that was not reformed. You said expect

there to be turbulence for a couple of years, have you been surprised by

the immediate turbulent shocks? Actually what I made clear was that

it depends on the policies chosen, and I think coming back to

reiterating an earlier point, we need to have sensible policies being

chosen. The life and the economic out -- outcome depends on the

fundamentals, which show the UK economy losing momentum before this

referendum. Also G7 countries highlighting the need for policy

boost. Confidence is a difficult one. What's interesting is that on

Friday the Chancellor, correctly in my view, changed his fiscal stance.

We need a lot more infrastructure spending, the UK Government can

borrow for next to nothing and we should be investing longer term for

the infrastructure. James, do you agree, that we may get short-term

turbulence but we will restore confidence eventually with the right

leader in place? I think that is now the key objective that we move

forward... And it was always going to be the objective, Leave was never

going to be a problem... I was never arguing this guy would fall in, it

is now giving that sense of stability, getting the right

policies. I think we shouldn't just rushed to invoke article 50, it is

important we have a clearer approach set out in terms of our negotiating

mandate so we can go in clearly and get the best possible deal. That's

why I think it is right not to trigger that before the end of this

year, but it is how we get the best possible deal for the city, for

London, on the best possible access for goods and services to the single

market. That is the approach we need to be clear on. And no signals at

all that London cannot get a good deal in this new world. Sadiq Khan

has outlined this week that London obviously has a special place in the

UK economy, it needs special arrangements. He has already laid

out a case for greater devolution of powers to London as an entity.

People are naturally very worried and we need the reassurance of

political stability, and that will not happen very soon but hopefully

as quickly as possible. We need an effective opposition as well to keep

the Government on their toes, to hold them to account and we are not

going to do that any time soon. Was there a sense of contradiction for

you this week in Sadiq Khan asking for more devolution to London given

that you think his support for the EU was a centralising body? Yes I

thought the mayor gave a very good speech but I thought there was a big

contradiction in terms. He spoke about the need to be in the EU. At

the same time he said devolved more powers to London. But because of the

EU decision, it has made that case. We have decided to leave the

European Union, I think that's in the best interests for London and

the whole country, but the mayor said this week was something Boris

Johnson was pushing for, to devolve more powers not just to London but

across the whole country. But for transparency, and will allow more

infrastructure spending. Let's move on. Stay with us.

At just over one million, EU nationals account for 12%

Perhaps overlooked amidst the sound and fury of the battles fought

over the referendum, the decision to leave

the European Union has cast doubt over the future of EU nationals

Those nationals seeking clarity might feel less than assured

by Theresa May's speech on Thursday as she launched her campaign

to become the next Prime Minister, indicating that the legal status

of EU nationals will at some point be on the table for negotiation

And until a new legal agreement is reached with the EU,

which will not happen for some time, the legal status of British

nationals living or working in Europe will not change

and neither will the status of EU nationals in Britain.

Cause for disquiet then for the EU National community

We showed a few of them Theresa May's speech.

Actually a colleague of mine at work, she came to work the other

day and she said her kids came back from school saying that...

asking mum, are going to be deported?

She said no, don't worry, we are not leaving, but after this

The morning after the referendum results, I felt it was

Suddenly I'm looking over my shoulder for no reason,

It's kind of a primal instinct now to just think about looking

at people on the bus and thinking, oh, 50% of this bus voted for me

The UK has yet to begin negotiations to leave the EU, leaving

the fate of EU nationals here very much in limbo.

Gerard, would London survive without it EU workforce? I think they will

stay, but 38% of the London population is international, on a

par with New York and Singapore One in eight people in the finance

industry are Europeans, so they are important and hence the focus on the

points-based migration system. Jim Fitzpatrick, freedom of movement is

up for grabs, you have to reconsider your policy on migration as well. It

is clearly an issue, but the attacks on European citizens and people who

are brown and black are completely outrageous and it is great the

Government has said they will clamp down on that. We need to see the

police taking greater action because these people have been working here,

they are helping London be successful and they need those

reassurances. Will EU citizens after EU be able to stay here? There is no

change at the moment whilst we remain in the European Union, and

it's important we look for guarantees for those EU citizens who

are here, those who are working and contributing, and equally for

British citizens overseas. We heard some concerns in the film and I

didn't hear it clarified by Theresa May or Robert Peston this morning,

can you guarantee that the people from the EU here now will be able to

stay as long as they like? It is important to seek those guarantees

as part of the negotiation, but Jim's point is right, some of the

awful incidents that have taken place are unacceptable and don't

represent our country. Do you accept you cannot guarantee that, the

people who have contributed their taxes and made their lives here

won't be able to stay? It is important we have this as a core

part of the negotiation, to get that reassurance. It is such an important

part of our economy, around 60, 00 people in the care sector, we need

to look at that assurance so people can continue to contribute in that

way. You are shaking your head but no party will be able to guarantee

that now. The mixed signals the Government is sending has given

licence to people to think it is a field day on foreign people. We need

to make sure the Government acts to clamp down on people who are

attacking those with a different accent. The police are giving the

firm message this is utterly unacceptable. Sorry we cannot come

back to you. Gerard, thanks for coming.

First it was meant to be last Christmas, then it was this summer.

Now it's slipped until at least October.

No-one seems to want to have to make this decision on airport expansion.

But the chair of the commission which recommended a third

runway at Heathrow - and as a second preference

another runway at Gatwick - has told us he thinks

it's the perfect moment for a new Prime Minister

A new campaign to challenge plans for Heathrow Airport

Just a small airfield in the middle of acres of farmland,

People have been making almost exactly the same news report

about Heathrow expansion for decades.

There's a map of the new runway at visit to a potentially

We said we didn't think another runway was necessary

in the south-east until the year 2016, providing we are allowed

The latest push for a third runway began exactly one

year and two days ago, when the Government's Airport

Chaired by the Economist Sir Howard Davies, he plumped for Heathrow

We have concluded that the north-west runway at Heathrow

12 months on, he told us he was disappointed

They said they needed to look at evidence and our analysis,

which is quite reasonable, but that they would make

a decision in the autumn, that's the autumn of 2015.

The decision came eventually in December, and opted for indecision.

More work was needed, the Government said,

on air quality impacts, but then this week more delay.

The Government said it would now be down to the next

News which dropped just hours before this meeting from the lobbying

On every seat here they have given away a packet of fudge, which says,

"stop fudging a decision on airport expansion".

It's fair to say that a lot of people here think that is exactly

I'm not surprised but it is bad news for British economy.

Now more than ever we need decisions to go ahead on investment

But the news kept coming. After the meeting, this.

..I have concluded that person cannot be me.

Along with the former mayor's prime ministerial ambitions,

surely went any hope of this - his idea for an airport

in the Thames estuary, sometimes dubbed Boris Island.

Now whether building a new airport in the Thames estuary

was a good idea or not, you cannot take it away

from Boris Johnson, he was certainly very clear in his enthusiasm

What is much less clear is where the people who are still in the race

to be the Conservative leader stand on the issue.

Both Theresa May and Michael Gove have constituencies near Heathrow

and have in the past expressed concerns about its noise.

So, does that mean that they would oppose a third runway?

Neither Theresa May nor Michael Gove were involved in the Cabinet

committee which was looking at these options, and I'm not aware

that they have made any firm commitment either for or against.

They both have struck me when I have met them as being people

who are analytical, who will look at the pros and cons in a way

that is imbued with the national interest, if you like,

But nevertheless it seemed to some that it was a good week for

alternatives to Heathrow Airport, namely building a second

I mean, in our view we have always had a very strong case and we think

today our case is probably strong as it has ever been so, yes,

For half a century, people have struggled with how to build

extra airport capacity here in the south-east.

Could it be that it is so difficult, the closest a new runway ever gets

to being built is pretty much just a map drawing on a news report?

James, what will you be advising Theresa May to do? Let's look at the

evidence that will come through It's important that we get the air

quality information. Equally, the airport operators are saying they

will set out more details as to how they would provide financial

compensation and also, the links to other airports. So I think it's

about getting the decision right. I can understand why it has been

deferred. It doesn't affect the long term time scale, but it is better

that whoever is the next Prime Minister has that information. Where

do you think it should go? I have not expressed a view. I want to look

at the evidence as well. Knowing that for so many people, the air

quality information is essential to the conclusion. Clarify for us, I

understood that Theresa May was against expansion at Heathrow. Is

that the case? I have never had a conversation with her about this.

You would have to ask her. But it is about looking at the evidence

carefully, and the economic analysis as well as the environmental impact

so that we get the right decision. Yes, we are seeing a further

deferral, but that doesn't have an overall impact. Jim, you have always

supported it in the past and still back it now. We had a 2003 white

paper which recommended it. In 012, the government realised they had

made a mistake. They set up a commission to say there would be an

answer by 2015, then by January Then there was Labour confusion as

well. Given the Brexit result, one of the real challenges is

connectivity to the rest of the world. Our trading partners, Paris,

Madrid, Berlin, all of our main competitors have four or six runway

airports. Dubai has just built a six runway airport. We are dithering and

we need this sorted. And it is private sector investment, not

taxpayers' money. Let both airports do their job, which is to sell

business to their customers. Well, you have heard him loud and clear. I

hope you are reported to Theresa May.

That's all we have time for. Back to Andrew.

Let's return to Labour's travails now, and we're joined now from Hull

by the former deputy leader of the Labour Party, John Prescott.

Earlier in this programme am a Barry Gardiner, a member of the Shadow

Cabinet, said that what was needed was an honest broker to resolve the

issue between Mr Corbyn and the parliamentary party and the party in

the country. He named you as a potential honest broker. Are you up

for it? I'm amazed. He twists and turns every 24 hours. And all of a

sudden, when I appear on your programme, I am told I am to be the

honest broker. There is no doubt that I love my party, the Labour

Party. I would always do whatever was helpful. But simply because I

had a few negotiating with is with Gordon and Tony, it's not an easy

proposition. You have to have the will, and the Will this time must

be, can we avoid the disaster we are heading to and the talk of civil war

and separate parties? You can't have that. We must do everything to stop

it. Is that a note to being honest broker? You can take on a thing from

that. I am just amazed to hear it. It wouldn't just be one person, it

would have to be a group of people are thinking about how you deal with

the real problems. The MPs have concerns about selections which they

have been that and with. There is concern about what the negotiating

position will be an about the leadership. When I listen to the

programmes again, Neil Kinnock and others, whether you can go ahead

without an election. I am a believer and I fought hard for one member,

one vote to involve the ordinary members. That is why I persuaded

people to vote for Jeremy, let the party make the decision. I didn t

vote for him. I didn't think he was the leader I wanted. But the party

did speak. What has changed now is one member, one vote. The

Parliamentary party has its position. It used to originally

elect the leader. We changed that and went out to the members. Surely

if you want an election, use the proper procedure, get the names of

the MPs for the nominations and have an election. I hope we don't. I hope

Angela and Owen Smith don't go into an election, because that will take

the fight closer to civil war. If Mr Corbyn is challenged, is it your

view that as the incumbent, as the existing leader of the Labour Party,

he has a right to be on the ballot paper automatically? I hear what the

lawyers they about that. I say this. If you want to challenge the leader

of the Labour Party, then you get the names of the MPs and a

nomination list and have a vote But since he is the incumbent, and if he

is being challenged rather than stepping down, whatever the lawyers

say, would he not have a right to be on the ballot paper? I believe if he

can get sufficient names from the PLP, which is the rule under our

situation, then he is entitled to be on it. The argument as to whether

because he was the leader before is a legal one, personally, if you are

going to have an election, and I hope we don't, that is the only way

to sort it out. Otherwise you have a divided party. So he would still

need to get the names as well. Those are the rules we have. But why

haven't the names being put up before now? On this occasion, they

hoped they could shake him down They hoped he would resign

voluntarily. I think many MPs were convinced that was the road forward.

Well, it hasn't turned out that way and the man intends to stand in the

election. In my view, follow the processes of the party and get the

names of supporters to enter the list. If he is not challenged and

remains as leader of the Labour Party, what evidence is there that

he will get better at the job? Well, I didn't vote for Jeremy for some of

these reasons. From when he started to now, he has been improving. But I

do accept that a lot of people are not convinced. He doesn't have the

pension you sometimes need. I scream and shout, as you know, from time to

time. They don't doubt that he believes what he is saying, but a

leader has to reach across the party. I don't think Jeremy has done

that. There are people in the party who have declared war on him from

the first day of his election, let's be honest. He has got to improve.

The party has to recognise the road it has embarked upon, or the PLP.

And we need to prevent civil war. It would be disastrous for us. I sat in

the Labour Party when it was the SDP and they put us out for 18 years. Is

that what we want again? Is that our answer to the people screaming out

to tackle this Tory government? Follow the constitution. Have an

election if you have to, although I hope we don't have to. I hope Angela

and Owen will not stand. I tried to advise a week ago to take more time

to think about it. I think the MPs should go away and think about it

over the holiday and come back and remember that the party once asked

to resent a good case against this Tory government, or people will

suffer. We cannot stand on the side, wringing our hands. Play it

together. I understand that rallying call, but if there isn't an election

or if there is but Mr Corbyn remains as leader, surely the situation is a

leader who doesn't have the confidence of 80% of the

parliamentary party. That is not sustainable. I understand that and

it is a proper question. But listening to all the arguments over

the last few weeks and in the PLP, I wonder if every MP would feel the

same if we embarked upon a new party, isolating itself from the

membership. If they do that, I wonder if you would keep the same

vote. MPs have to look at themselves and say, let us get behind the guy

or get rid of him, but get rid of him in the proper way. Most thought

he would resign. It hasn't happened, so let's think through the

consequences and avoid that civil war and deserting our own people in

fighting against Tories. You wrote this morning that the last time

Labour split, the gang of four in the 1980s, you ended up in

opposition for 18 years. When you look at the situation at the moment,

it is possible that split or un-split, if things continue the way

they do, you would be in opposition for 18 years. That is a possibility.

There are misconceptions people had. Many in the PLP assumed this man

should go. OK, they expressed their opinion. But they thought he would

just go quietly. That hasn't happened. If you go along this road

and have another election, we are embarking upon those who are already

talking about a separate PLP party, separated from the members. Blimey,

think twice before you go down that road. We now it will be four years

before the next election. Let's have more common sense. Remember, it s a

whole party. One final question not wishing to make you more gloomy

Isn't there a chance of things getting worse before they get

better? We have the Chilcot report coming on Wednesday and we are being

told that a number of leading Labour people, perhaps even Mr Corbyn

himself, will brand Tony Blair is a war criminal. That can only make

things worse, can't it? I agree It will make it worse, whatever they

say. That is more the reason why bitter division in the PLP can only

be made worse by angry statements about Iraq. We got it wrong on Iraq.

Most people now recognise that, and a terrible price was paid. I cannot

absolve myself from that. I sat in that cabinet. We can have a proper

debate, but keep it less personal. Let's learn the lessons and avoid

such a terrible situation, although frankly, we have been in other wars

since then with the same feeling prevailing. John Prescott, thank you

for being with us today. Helen, what is happening? The one

thing I was missing there is a plan for what happens next. It is

unlikely that people who have exited the Shadow Cabinet are going to go

back into it. So if you are a Jeremy Corbyn supporter, what do you want?

If you accept that there is no way, and that is what the negotiations

are about, could you have an automatic place on the next ballot

or would you have an agreement that someone like Clive Lewis would get

onto next ballot? That would require Jeremy Corbyn to stand down. Yes, so

if Corbyn stands again, it looks like he would win again with the

members and there would be such a loss of hatred that the idea of

anyone who ran against him that it would splinter the party. Chris

Bryant was saying he didn't think it was a shoe in order that he would

necessarily win with the members again. That is because there is

polling that shows that support for Corbyn has slid backward. The polls

put him against the other likely challengers and he beat all of them,

but there was a sense in the vote that there were some who really

wanted Jeremy Corbyn, but there were some who just didn't like the others

and wanted something different. If there were a plausible person who

was not Corbyn, they might go for that person. It was interesting that

Don Prescott said that even if you are the incumbent -- John Prescott

said that even if you are the income -- incumbent, you need the requisite

number of MPs. That is hugely debated at the moment. It might go

to the courts. That is all Labour bid now, for the Labour to be

involved. They are between a rock and a hard place. Whether it is

Clive Lewis or John Donald rather than Jeremy Corbyn versus Angela

Eagle or whoever, the two tribes are now so far away from each other that

the rubber band of the Labour Party has broken. We are now looking at

two political parties eventually. It may take three months or three

years, but I cannot see how those two wings can reconcile themselves.

If Tom is right, the battle is who takes possession of the Labour

brand. As a brand, it is more powerful than the conservative brand

in some ways. And who has that brand automatically get at least 20% of

the votes. It comes with the name. It does, but what is the brand? That

is what goes to the heart of what this debate is about. There are a

couple of other points. All credit to John Prescott for at least

acknowledging that if this goes on, Labour could be out for another 18

years. But what about these 40 MPs who are propping up Corbyn at the

moment? I don't think enough scrutiny is being given to them At

the end of the day, if they haemorrhaged away, Corbyn would have

nobody left. I can't understand why very experienced senior figures like

Andy Burnham are still helping him. That was the point Chris Bryant was

making. Some of them apparently tried very hard to resign last week

or tell Jeremy Corbyn they would if he didn't go, but they are now

incapable of resigning cos he will not see them. There is a parallel to

Article 50, which is Jeremy Corbyn's own article 50. As soon he stands

down, he loses a lot of his bargaining ability. But what is the

mood on the left of the Labour Party? Is it to stick it out with

Jeremy Corbyn, or is it to accept that that is not working and get

someone else from a more credible left-wing leader into place? My

sense is that it is fracturing. You will end up with a rump of people

who just want Jeremy Corbyn, they don't care about anything else. They

joined to vote for him and they will leave the party when he goes. But

there is a bigger group of people who want somebody who they feel is

authentically left wing, but they are not wedded to it being Corbyn.

That is what is changing. There has been bleeding of support from Corbyn

himself. But also, the extent to which Corbyn is being propped up by

a few figures, I am hearing that he wants to go but is being forced to

stay. Do we know if that is true? People around him are saying, if you

go, Alec experiment about this part of the party being in charge will be

destroyed. Do you agree with that? I wonder. If you are the leader of a

political party and you want to go, you go. Every time Jeremy Corbyn

turns up at a rally in Parliamentary 's -- Parliament Square with

thousands screaming for him, it makes him feel good and gives him

hope. It makes him think that, I know it looks bad, but there are

still people who love me. There is also a genuine principle thing,

which is that he was elected by people who were not represent by the

Labour Party as it was, and he feels a sense of responsibility to them.

And with Chilcot coming out on Wednesday morning, it can only make

it worse. Absolutely. There is a lot of speculation at Westminster that

Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on until then so that he can stand up

in the House of Commons and say that Tony Blair should be tried for war

crimes. Possibly, he wants his big moment and will disappear after

that. Or he may get reinvigorated by it. This is fascinating. All those

people who are saying Jeremy should go, he was the position to Tony

Blair within his own party -- he was the opposition. What are we going to

learn from Chilcot? That Tony Blair got it wrong? They're zealots on

both sides who will want to fight this out. Whether we learn anything

or not is another matter. I suggest it is fuel on the Labour fire. But

it doesn't change the positions we know will be confirmed. But if the

leader of the Labour opposition calls on a former neighbour Prime

Minister to be treated as a war criminal, that is history in

anybody's books. That is one thing keeping the Labour Party avoided,

the mistakes over Iraq. People are in one camp or the other. We shall

leave it there. The Daily Politics is on all next

week on BBC Two. I'm back here next Sunday

at 11am on BBC One. Remember - if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics.