02/10/2016 Sunday Politics London


02/10/2016

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This programme contains some flashing images.

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We're live from sunny Birmingham on day one of

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the Conservative Party Conference, where, three months after Britain

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voted to leave the European Union, the Prime Minister has given

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us her first inkling of how she plans to do it.

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Morning, folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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Theresa May says she will trigger Article 50, starting the two year

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process of negotiations that will culminate in Britain

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leaving the EU, before the end of March next year.

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So Brexit by Easter 2019 - but what kind of relationship

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A Great Repeal Bill will also be voted on next Spring,

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but won't be enacted until we leave, at which point EU laws will be

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And what do Conservative MPs want to hear from their new leader?

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We catch up with a Brexiteer and a Remainer as they pack

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In the capital, if London was defined by the conservatism of the

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Notting Hill set, what now? We explore the potential rise of Sidcup

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Man. So far no Great Repeal Act to get

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rid of the Sunday Politics Panel - Steve Richards, Rachel Sylvester

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and Tom Newton Dunn. It's 100 days since we voted

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to leave the EU and the clamour has grown for the Government to tell us

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what Brexit would look like. This morning, as the Tory faithful

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gather in Birmingham, we still don't expect to be told

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what Brexit means but we do know more about the timetable

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and the extrication process. A Bill will go before parliament

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this spring to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act,

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which legalised our membership But it won't actually come

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into force until we leave. Theresa May also told

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the Andrew Marr Show that Article 50 would be invoked

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by March of next year - starting the two year process

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of renegotiation before we leave. I have been saying we would not

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trigger it before the end of this year, so that we get confirmation in

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place. I will be saying in my speech today that we will trigger before

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the end of March next year. The remaining members of the EU have to

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decide what the process of negotiation is. I hope, and I will

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be saying to them, that now they know what the time is going to be,

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it is not an exact date, but they know it will be the first quarter of

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next year, that we will be able to have some preparatory work so that

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once the trigger comes we have a smoother process of negotiation.

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Theresa May, on this channel, just over an hour ago. What do you make

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of it? Saggy as you said, we know more about when but we don't know

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what Brexit is going to be. We don't know how the relationship will work

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out, we don't know what the Prime Minister's negotiation position will

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be, we haven't worked out anything about the free market access and

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freedom of movement. All of the substance. It is a significant

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announcement but we don't actually know anything really big about what

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our lives are going to be like in future. Is there a risk from the

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Prime Minister? Is there a risk putting this before Parliament to

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repeal the 1972 Communities Act? Undoubtedly. Anything you put before

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the House of Commons or the House of Lords, where there is no Tory

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majority, let alone a Brexit majority, risks getting amended. She

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runs the risk. There is also a risk of not saying this, not having the

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greater appeal, which is actually a great repeal act, when is being

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repealed, but she needed to throw the Tory right red meat, and they

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got it this morning. There is always the potential of a constitutional

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crisis. If the Lords were to dig in over this, or even digging over

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Article 50, demand a vote on that, lawyers are arguing whether you need

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it or not, it may not be plain sailing when you have a majority of

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12? It definitely isn't going to be with a majority of 12. The scope for

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constitutional crisis is many. Clashes with the Lords, clashes with

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the Commons, Scotland is still there in the background allows a

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significant factor. It will always be there, but perhaps in a different

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context. I don't think this will be the trigger for a constitutional

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crisis. You have to admire the elegant choreography. I was told

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ages ago that she knew she could not keep carry on saying Brexit means

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Brexit, there will have to be new lines. This is beautiful. We kind of

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knew that Article 50 was going to be triggered early in next year. David

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Davis even said that. It was a fair bet it would be before Easter. They

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couldn't spend the next two years negotiating Brexit and refocusing

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the entire legislative programme to spend the next two years rejigging

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the mountain of legislation we are affected with. They have turned a

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logistical, unavoidable inevitability into a sense of

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momentum this weekend. Very clever presentation. There are going to be

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huge crises to come over this. Picking off the 1972 Act, putting it

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all into British law and legislation, rather than dependent

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on Europe, that is what the Brexiteers wanted. To that extent,

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she has thrown them a bit of red meat today? Yes, but we still don't

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know what Brexit is going to be. But a bit of red meat keeps you going

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for a while. Maybe get them through to lunch time. Today or tomorrow?

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Really just today. The tactic is to get some stuff about Brexit out, get

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them talking about that and then move onto agenda she wants,

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domestic. What do you think? Good luck with that! Are you reading my

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script coming up? It was on the autocue, I'm sorry! Clearly, she is

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accessed about not making his premiership all about Brexit. It

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will be, but she is desperate. She needs to define herself away from

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Brexit, who is Theresa May, what did she really believe? We have heard

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whispers, but the next few days as a chance to do that. The fringe, Liam

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Fox is talking at two fringes. Two opportunities for a story. David

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Davis as well. These two men of great talent and potentially great

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ego, they will not be able to stop themselves having feelings heard.

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And Boris. Boris who? I have not seen him on the fringes. Fringe

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meetings have been quite dull at party conferences recently. Because

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of this issue, I think people are going to pack them out. That is

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where words might be said, explosive words. We live for fringe meetings!

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The PM hopes her announcement will deal with Brexit on day one

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so the conference can get on to talk about other matters.

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But as you can see from this not so slim tome - the conference guide-

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there are plenty of other issues to talk, maybe even argue about.

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Our Ellie caught up with two Tory MPs from different sides

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of the party before they set off, to see what they think lies in store

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# Just can't wait to get on the road again

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# The life I love is making music with my friends

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# And I can't wait to get on the road again...#

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Do you actually enjoy going to conference?

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It's not as much fun as when you're not an MP,

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because now people want to talk to you and everybody

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But do you make contacts, do you network?

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Do think Theresa May gets nervous about conference,

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I think if you are performing on a big stage, whoever you are,

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you ought to have a few nerves jangling around.

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But she's a polished performer, I'm sure she'll know

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Theresa May will also know she has several contentious issues she needs

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It is perhaps not surprising, then, that day one of

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We're pretty well balanced between those of us like myself,

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representing constituencies with really high levels

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of research, science and agriculture, who will be very

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keen, but probably pragmatically understanding that we are not

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going to hear everything tomorrow, and the rest

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of the party who are just desperate for information.

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If they don't think the deal is going in the right way,

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they will want to say something about it.

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I think the time frame is pretty clear.

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We are going to trigger Article 50 at some point relatively

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That means we will get the negotiations done a good year

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The rest is going to be important meat on the bones.

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But, in terms of the core strategy, Theresa May goes into this

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So, a unified front, albeit perhaps fragile.

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But then there is the question of grammar schools.

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Depends whether we hear more about it.

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You know, the concept in its one-dimensional sense,

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you can't have a problem with that, can you?

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Giving parents choice, giving bright children the chance

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But, for me, for many of us, it has to be a package

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Our teachers are pretty stressed and overworked

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I'm not actually sure this is the right time.

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I would rather see emphasis being put on fairer funding.

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Constituencies like mine have been underfunded for decades.

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If you go into politics and government scared

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of your own shadow, unprepared to do anything bold or brave,

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I think there is no risk-free option.

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Of course, people have different views on grammar schools

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and it is a totemic political issue as well.

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But I think if you read the green paper, the Prime Minister has set

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out a very sensible, carefully calibrated approach,

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not just to grammar schools but the wider

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The new PM also faces big strategic decisions on expensive projects

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like airport expansion, an area even her Cabinet

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With all these big infrastructure projects, HS2, Heathrow,

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issues around fracking, nuclear as well, I think we have got

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to take the right decisions for the country, make sure Britain

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Each one of those is thorny in its own right.

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But what I think is most important is we look at it very carefully,

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That is where we all start to see the metal in Theresa,

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Whilst on the one hand, having a Prime Minister -

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nobody could have been more delighted than me that we managed

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to cut the tax credits changes - but having a Prime Minister

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that sticks to her guns, I'm not for U-turning,

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How confident are you, going to this conference,

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that it is all going to be sorted and you are going to be

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Well, people predicted an economic nosedive after the referendum.

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People said there would be political chaos.

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Actually, the economy has proved resilient.

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I think there is a sense of resolve on all sides of the party

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on all of these different issues to get behind this Prime Minister

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Last year, you got into a bit of trouble, being quite vocal

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Some suggestion you weren't a proper conservative.

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I think I am absolutely a proper conservative.

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I think my party needed reminding what conservative was.

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Our job is to help people who need a leg up.

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Her opening speech in Downing Street told me she absolutely is.

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Like all of these things, we will hear more about this week.

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# And I can't wait to get on the road again. #

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And we're joined now by the Transport Secretary,

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who was a leading Leave campaigner, Chris Grayling.

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Welcome back to the programme. The great repeal act, what exactly does

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it repeal? It repeal the 1972 European Communities Act. It means

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the European Court of Justice no longer has sway in the United

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Kingdom. It means the European Commission and Parliament no longer

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make laws for us. As of today, in our system, European law is supreme

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over UK law, and it repeal that. Except what it does is it

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consolidates all existing European legislation into British law. It

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would be more accurate to call it the great Consolidation act? Is This

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is what I argued for during the League campaign. The remaining

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campaign said you could not do it, it will take years, it will be a

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disaster. My response then is what it is now, the best way to do it is

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to consolidate existing legislation, much of which we will want to keep,

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the environmental measures, the workers' rights measures, what we

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want to do is to make sure we can get certainty before the event and

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after the event, for workers, businesses, but what the legal

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position will be. Over time, we have the freedom, outside the European

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Union, free from the control of the European Court, to change our legal

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system in the way that we want. It does mean we would leave the EU with

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all of this EU law still part of British law. Now, what would you

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wish to change in the aftermath? There is a whole variety of

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different things we will be looking at a change. For example, if you

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want a practical one, it is unlikely that after we have left the European

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Union we will still be paying child benefits to children that have never

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even entered the United Kingdom. That is the kind of thing we will be

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free to change after we have left. What else? Much of it we will want

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to keep, environmental measures, not all that has been done in the

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European Union for 40 years has been bad for Britain. How long will it

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take to pick all of this after we leave? Will be down to the

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Government to decide... Ten years? 20 years? It will take it as long as

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we choose. What is right and proper is that on the day after there is a

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degree of certainty for businesses. It would not be fair for a company

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to be operating under a set of rules, for there to be a cliff edge

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where they do not know what is going to happen the day after. Let's make

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it an evolution, not a revolution. A lot of the things you have to agree

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to enter negotiations mean it will have to remain law even after we

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leave? This clearly the case that if a business in this country is

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continuing to sell a product in the European Union, it will have to make

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the standards of the European Union. Those rules will apply. That is the

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same if we're selling to the United States, the rules of the United

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States would apply to a business planning to sell a product there.

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What happens if you lose the vote? It is inconceivable that Parliament

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can look at the view of the British public and ignore it. Parliament

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voted overwhelmingly for the referendum to take place in the

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first place, the people have given a mandate and I am certain Parliament

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will fulfil it. What would happen? You have a

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majority of only 12 and there was a majority for remain in the Commons

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and there is a large majority in the house of lords. If the parliament

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does not seamlessly agree for what you call the great repeal act, what

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would happen? Both houses are full of Democrats and they will respect

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the will of the people. But we could be faced with a constitutional

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crisis? We have taken the decision to leave and parliament voted for

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the referendum and it is inconceivable that Parliament would

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not allow that process to go forward. If the inconceivable

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happen, you'd have to cores and -- call an election. Inconceivable is a

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bit of a stretch. Plenty of voices, particularly in the House of Lords,

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would use this as a an opportunity to thwart you. And I don't think the

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House of Lords will turn around and say we should not fulfil that. There

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may be dissenting voices but they will view it as a democratic mandate

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that we have to fulfil. Has your party don soundings in the Commons

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to make sure you can get this through? I've not been involved in

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that discussion but parliament will respond to the will of the people.

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That's the way this country works. That's what you hope. We shall see

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how it works. We've been told by the Prime Minister this morning that

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article 50 will be triggered by the end of March. That means that we are

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out by Easter 2019. Can you confirm that those British members of the

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European Parliament currently in Strasberg, there will be no more for

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them after this. If we have left by the end of the two-year period. It

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is technically possible to extend it. After that period, there

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wouldn't be EP is after that point in 2019. -- MEPs. For Brexit to mean

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Brexit, the famous phrase, which is basically tautology. It would mean

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the freedom to have our own trade laws. It would mean the ability to

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do that? You are leading me to answer questions about the specific

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legal structures. It means our own free-trade deals? Correct. It would

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mean we are no longer subject to the rules of the European Court of

:19:18.:19:27.

Justice. Also correct. And we would have whatever control we desire over

:19:28.:19:32.

immigration? The Prime Minister has been clear that we need to control

:19:33.:19:35.

the flow of immigration into the country. Any of these counts as out

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from being a member of the single market. So can we agree that there

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is no way we can remain a member of the single market? There is no such

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thing as a member of the single market. There are a number of

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different trading agreements within the EU. We are effectively a member

:19:56.:20:01.

of the single market now but we can't be after this. The question

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you have asked me, do we want to be Norway, Switzerland, Canada when it

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comes to trading arrangements? We want to be the United Kingdom. We

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are the biggest customer of German car-makers, French farmers... I

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don't want to have the referendum fight again. It seems as black as

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black or as White is white that if you want all of that we cannot be a

:20:31.:20:35.

member, we can have access on terms yet to be agreed, we will have a

:20:36.:20:40.

relationship, but why cannot you say that we won't be a member in the way

:20:41.:20:44.

that we are currently a member of the single market? We won't be a

:20:45.:20:51.

member of the European Union but there is no such thing as a member

:20:52.:20:56.

of the single market. There is no single market in services, for

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example. There is but it is not as developed as goods. I believe we

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will end up with a trading partnership with the European Union

:21:07.:21:09.

on terms to be agreed that will work for both of us. Access but not

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membership. You cannot be a fully paid-up member of the single market

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without the European Court of Justice ruling on it and you don't

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want that. I don't understand your problem. Your pre-merging --

:21:25.:21:33.

prejudging the outcome of negotiations. We want the best

:21:34.:21:37.

possible trading arrangements with European neighbours and that is what

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we will work towards. Where different to the other countries

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that have been involved in these negotiations before. We have heard

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all that before in the referendum and we wanted some clarity on what

:21:51.:21:54.

it would mean. Transport, when will you give is the decision on runway

:21:55.:22:00.

expansion? I'm not going to set a date today. I've spent the summer

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looking at the three different options. We have three very well

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presented packages. The airport commission has looked at it

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carefully and the Prime Minister and I want to understand the options in

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detail and understand the strengths and weaknesses of each and we will

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reach our decision shortly. I'm not going to set a date on it. Shortly

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means in this year, surely. I don't want to wait unnecessarily long to

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take the decision but nor do I want to set a date so to to work towards

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that. Will there be a free vote? I need to identify the best option for

:22:42.:22:45.

Britain and take the best possible approach to get the support of

:22:46.:22:50.

parliament Porritt. Will there be a free vote? Decisions have not been

:22:51.:22:58.

taken but we will do the best for the interests of the country.

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Theresa May has said the options for an expansion to Heathrow are

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seriously flawed. Philip Hammond has described the Heathrow option as

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dead as a Norwegian parrot. Can you be sure that the Prime Minister and

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Anna Chancellor will vote for your proposal? We are looking at three

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options that are very new. One of them is Heathrow. Warrant -- they

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are very different options to what has been proposed in the past. They

:23:38.:23:42.

are all very well crafted proposals. They are interesting and have

:23:43.:23:47.

potential and we need to decide. That is why I am asking you. HS2,

:23:48.:23:55.

high-speed train, can you state categorically it will go ahead? It's

:23:56.:24:00.

due to start construction in the spring. The hybrids Bill Haas to

:24:01.:24:04.

continue its passage through the house of law -- the hybrid Bill Haas

:24:05.:24:14.

to continue through its passage in the house of lords. Will it be 2026?

:24:15.:24:28.

Will it be on-time and on budget? The select committee of MPs said it

:24:29.:24:33.

is unlikely and will certainly be over budget. I expected be

:24:34.:24:46.

absolutely clear and on -- expected to be absolutely on-time and on

:24:47.:24:51.

budget. The latest estimate for phase one, the core cast is ?14

:24:52.:24:56.

billion but there is contingency on top of that. How much? It is set to

:24:57.:25:05.

Treasury rules. It is always going to be over. If you really believed

:25:06.:25:11.

in the Northern powerhouse wouldn't this money be better spent instead

:25:12.:25:19.

of making it quicker to come to and Birmingham from London in under 90

:25:20.:25:24.

minutes, which you already can, wouldn't it be better to spend the

:25:25.:25:29.

money on state of the art road links between East and West in the north.

:25:30.:25:45.

I think we need to do both. We can't get more freight onto rail without

:25:46.:25:50.

creating more space. By taking fast trains off the West Coast main line

:25:51.:25:56.

which is already busy and put fast freight trains onto the new route,

:25:57.:26:03.

you create more capacity for places like Milton Keynes Dons Northampton,

:26:04.:26:06.

Coventry. It is about making sure we have a transport system that can

:26:07.:26:12.

cope with the demands of the 21st-century. Thank you very much.

:26:13.:26:15.

Now, as we speak, voters in Hungary are going to the polls to vote

:26:16.:26:18.

on whether to accept mandatory EU quotas for relocating migrants.

:26:19.:26:21.

The country's government has been campaigning for voters to reject

:26:22.:26:23.

the EU's proposals and has run a highly controversial campaign,

:26:24.:26:26.

accusing migrants of terrorism and crime - and the Prime Minister

:26:27.:26:29.

Viktor Orban has said today he'll quit if the country votes

:26:30.:26:31.

In response to the ongoing migrant crisis, the EU wants to establish

:26:32.:26:36.

a permanent European resettlement programme, under which,

:26:37.:26:38.

member states must take their fair share of asylum seekers,

:26:39.:26:40.

depending on the size of each country's population and economy.

:26:41.:26:44.

If countries refuse, the European Commission has proposed

:26:45.:26:46.

that they would incur a financial penalty of 250,000 euros per person,

:26:47.:26:51.

to cover the cost of another country taking them.

:26:52.:26:56.

Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto said the plan

:26:57.:26:58.

Last year, Hungary rejected an emergency EU plan that would have

:26:59.:27:03.

seen tens of thousands of refugees transferred out of the country

:27:04.:27:07.

in return for accepting a quota of almost 1300 refugees

:27:08.:27:10.

As an EU border country, Hungary has received 18,500

:27:11.:27:16.

In 2015, it received the most asylum applications relative

:27:17.:27:23.

to its population of any EU state - 1800 for every 100,000 local people,

:27:24.:27:28.

though the majority of those then travelled onwards to other

:27:29.:27:31.

Although the referendum result will have no affect

:27:32.:27:38.

on the EU's decision, the Hungarian government hopes

:27:39.:27:40.

the weight of public opinion will help it resist the plans,

:27:41.:27:43.

running a very controversial referendum campaign.

:27:44.:27:46.

For example, this poster saying migrants carried out

:27:47.:27:48.

We're joined now from Budapest by our Correspondent, Nick Thorpe.

:27:49.:27:56.

I understand that the polls are pretty clear that the government

:27:57.:28:04.

will win this referendum but it needs a turnout of at least 50% for

:28:05.:28:09.

it to matter. What indication of turnout so far? As of 11am, turnout

:28:10.:28:20.

was just over 16% of the electorate. We have an electrode of 8.3 million,

:28:21.:28:25.

the government is campaigning strongly for a no vote. The

:28:26.:28:31.

government have framed the question in such a way that it is hard to

:28:32.:28:37.

vote, yes, we do want this imposed on us. The issue of turnout is

:28:38.:28:49.

important because the opposition have campaigned not to vote or to

:28:50.:28:57.

spoil votes. Even if the government wins on the numbers, if more people

:28:58.:29:02.

vote against the quotas, is it a symbolic defeat for the government

:29:03.:29:08.

if that was to happen? Some people will argue it would be a symbolic

:29:09.:29:16.

defeat if they don't get 50%. We've heard that ministers are backing off

:29:17.:29:20.

the whole issue of turnout. They are hoping for at least 3 million people

:29:21.:29:27.

to vote. Even 4 million which would be the 50%, voting no to migrant

:29:28.:29:33.

quotas. They say that all of those votes will give them a strong moral

:29:34.:29:38.

hand. In the words of the Prime Minister, it will sharpen the

:29:39.:29:41.

Hungarian sword in the battles ahead. Thank you very much.

:29:42.:29:45.

Malin Bjork is Swedish MEP and Vice Chair of

:29:46.:29:49.

the Confederal Group of the European United Left

:29:50.:29:51.

Welcome to the programme. The quota system proposed already seem to be

:29:52.:30:06.

dying if the Hungarians vote the way they are expected to today, that

:30:07.:30:10.

will kill it, will it not? I think we should have it as a point of

:30:11.:30:18.

departure whether we have seen that Hungary is a model in any of the

:30:19.:30:24.

fields that we want hungry -- Europe to be. I don't think Hungary is the

:30:25.:30:30.

model. I don't think we should give him the kind of weight that he

:30:31.:30:35.

actually claims. He wants more weight to this referendum. I don't

:30:36.:30:37.

think we should give it to him. It is not just Hungary, is it? There

:30:38.:30:49.

are meant to be 100,000 migrants covered by the quota system, fewer

:30:50.:30:53.

than 5% have been covered by it. It is just not happening, whether

:30:54.:30:59.

Hungary votes for or against? No, it is totally... But that means it is

:31:00.:31:03.

not operational, it is simply not working. There are serious

:31:04.:31:06.

criticisms to have towards implementing partners in this. But I

:31:07.:31:10.

do think when it comes to the political course, Hungary is playing

:31:11.:31:15.

a very dangerous, racist and right nationalist game. I don't think we

:31:16.:31:20.

should adapt to it. If it comes to it, we have to be prepared to be

:31:21.:31:25.

behind those that do not want to be the Europe that is taking

:31:26.:31:28.

responsibility globally. Let me clarify what you mean by that. The

:31:29.:31:33.

Foreign Minister of Luxembourg has already said that Hungary should be

:31:34.:31:37.

expelled from the European Union. Is that what you are saying as well?

:31:38.:31:44.

No, no. You know what I think? As a progressive politician on the left

:31:45.:31:48.

side, I do have a lot of criticisms to the European Union. But there are

:31:49.:31:53.

planets apart from the kind of models that Viktor Orban is trying

:31:54.:31:59.

to build, where he does not respect human rights, laws and media

:32:00.:32:03.

freedoms, and now he attacks refugee rights. Given all of that, let's

:32:04.:32:08.

accept what you say is true about that, others may dispute it, but

:32:09.:32:13.

let's accept that as true, why should Hungary remain a member of

:32:14.:32:17.

the European Union? Well, it is up to each country that has voted to

:32:18.:32:21.

stay, and voted to become members, voting to stay, I don't think Orban

:32:22.:32:27.

has any intention of leaving EU. I think he wants more influence in the

:32:28.:32:31.

EU. I think he wants more influence domestic league through the

:32:32.:32:34.

referendum and more influence in the EU. The question the rest of the

:32:35.:32:37.

countries have to ask themselves is if we are going to give it to him or

:32:38.:32:42.

adapt to his politics in any of these fields he is active in? I

:32:43.:32:45.

think we should make a stand against it. We should have political forces

:32:46.:32:49.

in other countries that have exactly the same kind of agendas, which we

:32:50.:32:55.

don't want to see strengthened. Isn't the problem that may be

:32:56.:32:59.

Hungary is on the trend, and you are not? We have seem the right, some

:33:00.:33:03.

may call it the far right even, on the march in Austria, Poland and in

:33:04.:33:09.

Hungary, even in Germany, with the recent elections in Berlin and

:33:10.:33:14.

Angela Merkel's backyard, even progressive social Democratic

:33:15.:33:16.

Sweden, your third biggest party is now the Sweden, Democrats, a hard

:33:17.:33:25.

right nativist party. Why are forces on the move, and while the forces

:33:26.:33:30.

used and four on the defensive? The more progressive forces, I think

:33:31.:33:34.

they are growing in many countries also, such as Spain, Ireland and

:33:35.:33:38.

other countries. It is not just for the left, it is for the broader

:33:39.:33:42.

political spectrum to counteract nationalist, right-wing and racist

:33:43.:33:46.

forces. We know where they lead, a dead end. It is a challenge in the

:33:47.:33:51.

European countries. Why is Europe going in this direction? In 2016,

:33:52.:33:55.

why are the forces of the rights so strong? To be honest, I think we

:33:56.:34:05.

have to be a little bit more humble and say are we failing people in

:34:06.:34:09.

some way? Yes, austerity policies are not working. Inequalities have

:34:10.:34:13.

grown for over 20 years in Europe. Of course it is a failure. We are

:34:14.:34:19.

capable of saving banks, but not refugees. People see this. It is

:34:20.:34:23.

political failure and I think we have to sit down and create

:34:24.:34:26.

different pacifists. What is happening now is worrying. I see

:34:27.:34:30.

some of the political forces in Europe. -- create different

:34:31.:34:35.

patterns. I see parties in Europe adapting to racism nationalist

:34:36.:34:44.

voices. I think we have to be the different parties that will not

:34:45.:34:47.

adapt to nationalist stories. They paint imaginary enemies. A huge

:34:48.:34:54.

chunk of Hungary's public spending comes from the European Union, net

:34:55.:34:58.

contributors like Sweden and the United Kingdom. If Hungary votes

:34:59.:35:03.

this way, should that continue? Should we continue to bankroll it?

:35:04.:35:10.

The way Europe and the European Union, individual members develop,

:35:11.:35:13.

of course we should lead discussions about money and heel spending to the

:35:14.:35:19.

respect for rule of law, the respect for human rights and the respect for

:35:20.:35:25.

international rights that are being infringed by the Hungarian

:35:26.:35:28.

government. Of course, we have to have such a discussion and it has to

:35:29.:35:30.

be frank. It's just gone 11.35,

:35:31.:35:33.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:35:34.:35:35.

in Scotland who leave us now In 20 minutes I will be talking to

:35:36.:35:38.

Iain Duncan Smith. First, though, the

:35:39.:35:47.

Sunday Politics where you are. I'm delighted to say this week,

:35:48.:35:53.

with me, Kwasi Kwarteng, the Conservative MP for Spelthorne,

:35:54.:35:58.

and Labour MP for Hampstead and Coming up a little bit later,

:35:59.:36:01.

what is the new London Tory style? Are we seeing the demise

:36:02.:36:07.

of Notting Hill conservatism and the beginning of the ascent

:36:08.:36:10.

of Sidcup Man? First, this seemed to catch

:36:11.:36:15.

everyone by surprise. Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe announced

:36:16.:36:17.

he was standing down nearly as London's police chief,

:36:18.:36:19.

attracting commendations for good service from a range

:36:20.:36:21.

of public figures, Well, I, of course,

:36:22.:36:23.

was the Home Secretary who first appointed Bernard Hogan-Howe

:36:24.:36:30.

as Commissioner of the I must say, he's done

:36:31.:36:32.

an excellent job in his time. He has been responsible

:36:33.:36:37.

for the policing of London at what has been a difficult time,

:36:38.:36:39.

given the level of terrorist threat He came with an excellent record

:36:40.:36:42.

from Merseyside and I think His approach to total policing,

:36:43.:36:50.

I think, has been of real I just wish him all the very best

:36:51.:36:55.

for the future. Plenty of speculation,

:36:56.:36:59.

as you would imagine, I have worked with people right

:37:00.:37:01.

across different parties, different characters

:37:02.:37:06.

over the last 15 years, really, as chairs of police

:37:07.:37:08.

authorities in Merseyside, and Mayors down here,

:37:09.:37:10.

and I have always The thing you have to build

:37:11.:37:12.

is trust, and the thing you share as a common vision,

:37:13.:37:16.

you have to keep people safe. Keith Prince has come

:37:17.:37:19.

in for this first section, the Conservative assembly member

:37:20.:37:23.

for Havering and Redbridge. As I suggested, a certain

:37:24.:37:25.

amount of speculation He is going six months early,

:37:26.:37:28.

which feels like a time Well, I think it is the

:37:29.:37:35.

relationship, isn't it? Clearly, he does not

:37:36.:37:45.

get on with Sadiq Khan. I think that is more of Sadiq's

:37:46.:37:47.

making than it is Sir Bernard's. Sir Bernard has done a great job

:37:48.:37:51.

in the five years he has been there. Many a time in public,

:37:52.:37:55.

Sidiq has been critical, Well, we have asked questions

:37:56.:37:59.

of Sadiq in our meetings and he has He was critical around

:38:00.:38:07.

the issue around what people They were to prevent people

:38:08.:38:10.

spitting at officers, and Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe had

:38:11.:38:15.

recommended a pilot scheme, introducing this, and Sadiq Khan

:38:16.:38:18.

made it clear he didn't We have already had one officer

:38:19.:38:20.

who had hepatitis C as a result So, they were there

:38:21.:38:34.

to protect officers. As soon as Sadiq heard about this,

:38:35.:38:38.

he blocked it. Does he care about his image

:38:39.:38:41.

or our hard-working servicemen? Are you saying this is something

:38:42.:38:45.

new, what are you suggesting? That he is actively involving

:38:46.:38:47.

himself in operational matters? He should not be involving himself

:38:48.:38:49.

in operational matters, and he is. He wants to call the shots, he wants

:38:50.:38:56.

to dictate what is going on. Clearly Sir Bernard,

:38:57.:38:59.

being the gentleman that he is and being a professional,

:39:00.:39:01.

and also being a Yorkshireman, has his own views on how he thinks

:39:02.:39:04.

the police should be run. Tulip Siddiq, what do

:39:05.:39:07.

you think about this? I think, actually Keith

:39:08.:39:17.

is being unfair on Sidiq Khan. At the hustings I attended,

:39:18.:39:19.

Sidiq was talking about how good Sir Bernard had been,

:39:20.:39:22.

how much work he had done, especially in policing

:39:23.:39:24.

the Olympics and the 2011 riots. Look, he's choosing to go,

:39:25.:39:27.

he's choosing to retire early. He has his own reasons

:39:28.:39:32.

for doing that. But we shouldn't talk about politics

:39:33.:39:34.

because Amber Rudd is going to have a say in selecting

:39:35.:39:37.

who the next person is. It also has to be someone

:39:38.:39:39.

who has reached that rank. You can't just pluck a figure out

:39:40.:39:42.

of the air and decide, right, he's going to have the most

:39:43.:39:45.

important job in policing. It will be a combination

:39:46.:39:48.

of Sadiq Khan and Amber Rudd, who I may remind everyone

:39:49.:39:50.

is actually a Conservative You all know the system,

:39:51.:39:52.

it is the Home Secretary that makes We know what happened in terms

:39:53.:39:58.

of Boris Johnson and Theresa May There is no doubt that there

:39:59.:40:04.

is some politics involved. I think you are quite right to say

:40:05.:40:09.

that there is some friction Is it worth pointing out,

:40:10.:40:12.

just at this stage, that Boris Johnson and his deputy,

:40:13.:40:17.

Steven Greenhouse, were not aware of this trial of the policy around

:40:18.:40:20.

spit hoods either? You could argue Sadiq Khan was just

:40:21.:40:25.

saying that we need to have some public consultation on this

:40:26.:40:29.

before you introduce that. There is a narrow line

:40:30.:40:31.

about whether that is I think Sidiq has

:40:32.:40:33.

been very political. He has political skills,

:40:34.:40:36.

that is why he is where he is. I think he has taken a view,

:40:37.:40:40.

and Sir Bernard has taken a view that it is best for the both of them

:40:41.:40:44.

if Sir Bernard's resignation, That, actually, he had five very

:40:45.:40:47.

good years, a new Mayor comes in with a new mandate,

:40:48.:40:53.

do you think we shouldn't have a problem with a Mayor thinking

:40:54.:40:57.

he wants somebody new? I am a politician,

:40:58.:40:59.

I know what politicians In any organisation,

:41:00.:41:02.

not just politics, people want to get their own people around

:41:03.:41:05.

them because they feel We have just had a reshuffle

:41:06.:41:08.

earlier this year in Government, where lots of people

:41:09.:41:12.

left the Government. It is completely inevitable that

:41:13.:41:14.

a new leader will want a new team. I think this has been elegantly

:41:15.:41:17.

managed. But we can't pretend

:41:18.:41:19.

that everything... You know, that they had a great

:41:20.:41:21.

working relationship If that was the case,

:41:22.:41:23.

that they didn't particularly have a good relationship,

:41:24.:41:28.

there is a personal thing, he's going to be going in September

:41:29.:41:30.

anyway, it is a few months, plenty of time to

:41:31.:41:33.

choose his successor? The man was probably going to go

:41:34.:41:35.

in September anyway. That would have given the Mayor

:41:36.:41:40.

and the Home Secretary, and don't forget, it has to go past

:41:41.:41:42.

the Queen as well come We know there is no one actually

:41:43.:41:45.

outstanding that is It's going to take quite a few

:41:46.:41:50.

months to sort that out. By the time February comes,

:41:51.:41:55.

will we have somebody in post, or will London be

:41:56.:41:58.

without a commissioner? Keith Prince, we can probably point

:41:59.:42:00.

out, here is somebody going of their own choosing,

:42:01.:42:03.

at least the transition will not be one of crisis that we

:42:04.:42:06.

have had in the past? Thanks very much indeed

:42:07.:42:09.

for coming in. Now, given the importance

:42:10.:42:11.

of international talent, foreign workers to London's economy,

:42:12.:42:14.

would it be possible, post-Brexit, for more flexible immigration

:42:15.:42:17.

arrangements than the rest Some like the idea of a London

:42:18.:42:19.

visa or work permit. This week I tried to find out

:42:20.:42:25.

whether the Prime Minister might be What we are doing in

:42:26.:42:29.

the preparations we are making before we trigger Article 50,

:42:30.:42:36.

and of course those are preparatory for negotiations for Brexit,

:42:37.:42:38.

is listening to various sectors of the economy, listening to various

:42:39.:42:40.

parts of the country, of the United Kingdom,

:42:41.:42:43.

to make sure we understand the particular issues that

:42:44.:42:46.

are there that we need to take account of as we prepare

:42:47.:42:49.

for these negotiations. We are going to make

:42:50.:42:53.

a success of Brexit. We are going to make a success

:42:54.:42:57.

of the opportunities that will then be available to us when we leave

:42:58.:43:01.

the European Union as well. Would you contemplate

:43:02.:43:04.

looser immigration Suggestions have been made for work

:43:05.:43:05.

permits or visas that are separate for London,

:43:06.:43:08.

to reflect that it has a slightly more liberal attitude

:43:09.:43:11.

towards immigration? Well, one of the clear

:43:12.:43:13.

messages that came in controlling movement from

:43:14.:43:18.

the European Union into the United Of course, we're talking

:43:19.:43:22.

to all parts of the country. And all businesses across all parts

:43:23.:43:26.

of the country and that includes the City

:43:27.:43:28.

of London about the needs that they will have in relation to

:43:29.:43:31.

the negotiations for Brexit and what they hope for when we've

:43:32.:43:35.

left the European Union. Do you accept that your perceived

:43:36.:43:38.

brand of toughness on immigration is something that

:43:39.:43:40.

could potentially damage Well, the response I'm giving

:43:41.:43:43.

in relation to immigration is based on the views

:43:44.:43:53.

of the British people. People voted to leave

:43:54.:43:56.

the European Union. They wanted to see their government

:43:57.:43:57.

able to control the movement of people into the EU into

:43:58.:44:02.

the UK and we will deliver on that. If there is a difference

:44:03.:44:06.

in London, which people say there is, how are

:44:07.:44:11.

you going to deal with that? I don't see why London should

:44:12.:44:14.

get special status. The whole point about controlling

:44:15.:44:16.

freedom of movement is that we want to stop people, as it

:44:17.:44:19.

were, coming on spec. If you've got a job,

:44:20.:44:25.

you'll be able to come, I imagine. So, there's no reason,

:44:26.:44:28.

if that operates, why London should be treated

:44:29.:44:30.

differently from the rest of the What do you think

:44:31.:44:32.

about the concept of a There are examples of regionalised

:44:33.:44:45.

systems, like Canada, I do think London is a special case,

:44:46.:44:49.

in terms of the number of people who I think, what I worry about,

:44:50.:44:54.

listening to Theresa May is that the EU referendum was not a proxy

:44:55.:45:00.

vote on immigration. For me, we do need to talk

:45:01.:45:02.

about the benefits of immigration and how much money

:45:03.:45:07.

European migrants have actually In the last ten years,

:45:08.:45:09.

it's been ?20 billion that they've contributed

:45:10.:45:14.

and we need to talk about that. I do agree that we need to have some

:45:15.:45:19.

system where we monitor how many people

:45:20.:45:24.

are in the country, how many people leave,

:45:25.:45:30.

but let's not forget the benefits proxy vote on immigration which is

:45:31.:45:32.

what it seems to have happened. I mean, everyone's is son

:45:33.:45:37.

or daughter of an immigrant at some point in their history but,

:45:38.:45:42.

you know, lots of recent arrivals have made a huge impact,

:45:43.:45:45.

there's no The issue that has always been

:45:46.:45:46.

the case is one of control. Under the EU rules, you've got this

:45:47.:45:50.

issue of free movement which millions of people have an issue

:45:51.:45:54.

with because you're essentially saying, you're going to import

:45:55.:45:56.

150,000 people every single year. I think the vote, there

:45:57.:45:59.

were lots of things that drove people to vote,

:46:00.:46:07.

influenced the Brexit vote, but I think a lot of it was to do

:46:08.:46:09.

with being able to control Wasn't it for your leader

:46:10.:46:13.

to say, not really hung up by numbers, I'm not

:46:14.:46:16.

going to impose any kind of limit, in other words, it was read

:46:17.:46:19.

as we can have Look, what I would

:46:20.:46:22.

say, certainly in my constituency, immigration enriches

:46:23.:46:24.

the community that we live in. In terms of the number

:46:25.:46:27.

of people, we've already seen that putting an

:46:28.:46:29.

arbitrary figure on how many people can come into the country has not

:46:30.:46:31.

worked for Theresa May, has not I don't think you can

:46:32.:46:34.

actually put an arbitrary figure or cap on it

:46:35.:46:37.

because they certainly didn't meet But you can indicate an absolute

:46:38.:46:40.

direction of travel and a I think the intent is to

:46:41.:46:50.

monitor how many people Don't forget about the thousands

:46:51.:46:56.

of British people who live outside and who live in Europe,

:46:57.:47:00.

what are we going to do about them? I think you have to have an overall

:47:01.:47:03.

picture before you make a decision Are you assuming that Theresa May

:47:04.:47:09.

and your government will not go down I haven't really thought

:47:10.:47:14.

about how you would implement it, in reality,

:47:15.:47:22.

having a London only permit. Would that prevent you from going

:47:23.:47:28.

to Watford, or Oxford, or wherever

:47:29.:47:31.

it might be, to work? I don't know how that

:47:32.:47:36.

would work in practice. What I would say about

:47:37.:47:38.

Jeremy Corbyn is, I'm going to say nice things

:47:39.:47:41.

about him, he's honest. He honestly believes

:47:42.:47:43.

that we shouldn't really be

:47:44.:47:44.

looking at targets. He represents Islington,

:47:45.:47:47.

very multicultural community and he's very happy with not having

:47:48.:47:50.

a cap on immigration. His problem is that a large section

:47:51.:47:54.

of his base in the Labour Party, also Labour MPs,

:47:55.:47:57.

do feel there should be some degree of oversight in terms of how many

:47:58.:48:01.

people come in and they think it's I don't think it gets

:48:02.:48:04.

said very often, so I'll definitely report back

:48:05.:48:14.

to Jeremy. Are we in a position

:48:15.:48:15.

to define what Theresa May's conservativism

:48:16.:48:21.

will feel like in London yet? Is it goodbye to Notting

:48:22.:48:24.

Hill and hello Sidcup? A place where, a little over ten

:48:25.:48:26.

years ago, a group of ambitious Tories are said to have planned

:48:27.:48:36.

a takeover of their party and then David Cameron, George Osborne,

:48:37.:48:40.

Michael Gove, and their friends were called

:48:41.:48:45.

the Notting Hill set. A phrase coined by the journalist

:48:46.:48:56.

Peter Oborne. Peter knows a bit

:48:57.:48:58.

about the neighbourhood. You may not be very close

:48:59.:48:59.

to the English working class but you're really

:49:00.:49:01.

close to the hedge fund managers. There are hedge fund managers

:49:02.:49:04.

spikes all over here. So, how might all this inform

:49:05.:49:07.

the way you saw the world? Immigration is only a good thing

:49:08.:49:09.

if you live in Notting Hill because you have your expensive

:49:10.:49:12.

house, and your surly English plumber is undercut by the go-ahead

:49:13.:49:19.

Polish plumber, If you're a shareholder

:49:20.:49:20.

of the company, you have shares in, the price of labour has been driven

:49:21.:49:26.

down by mass immigration and that's terrific because it

:49:27.:49:29.

means more profits for you take a benign view

:49:30.:49:33.

of immigration and it only impacts on you personally

:49:34.:49:38.

as a good thing. So, could it be that

:49:39.:49:42.

Notting Hill was part It's not as ridiculous

:49:43.:49:44.

as, perhaps, it immediately sounds

:49:45.:49:48.

because if the vote to leave the EU

:49:49.:49:59.

really was, as some people think, a rebellion

:50:00.:50:01.

against a metropolitan, wealthy, liberal elite, the idea

:50:02.:50:02.

that the most powerful in the country were happiest around

:50:03.:50:04.

here in a bistro, Just hours into the job a Prime

:50:05.:50:07.

Minister, Theresa May wasted no time telling the nation that she wasn't

:50:08.:50:11.

trapped in an elitist bubble. I know that sometimes

:50:12.:50:14.

life can be a struggle. The government I lead will be

:50:15.:50:16.

driven, not by the interests So, how is Theresa May going down

:50:17.:50:19.

in places like Sidcup Where ?400,000 still buys

:50:20.:50:23.

you a house and not There's even a grammar

:50:24.:50:26.

school around the corner. Do you think she's more likeable

:50:27.:50:30.

than David Cameron? Probably not.

:50:31.:50:32.

It's hard to say. Well, let's give her a chance.

:50:33.:50:34.

I personally don't think so. But, to be fair,

:50:35.:50:39.

we've got to give her a chance. I think she's got God in her life

:50:40.:50:41.

and I think, you know, I don't know too much about her just

:50:42.:50:45.

yet so it's not fair for me to say anything about her until I know

:50:46.:50:50.

more about her myself. For all those locals looking

:50:51.:50:58.

for a steer on what the new Prime Minister is like,

:50:59.:51:00.

they could do worse After all, he worked with

:51:01.:51:03.

Theresa May for five years at the Home Office as a minister.

:51:04.:51:06.

His name is James Brokenshire. Whether it's in Bexley,

:51:07.:51:09.

where I am, Bethnal Green and Bow, or maybe out

:51:10.:51:14.

into Barnet, it is that message of opportunity

:51:15.:51:25.

of allowing people to get get a good school, get a good job

:51:26.:51:27.

and ensure that they are seeing a really positive opportunity

:51:28.:51:31.

from wherever they come from. Conservatives say that their

:51:32.:51:34.

conference this week is going to We'll ask the new Housing minister

:51:35.:51:36.

to give us a tip-off. One thing he told us to look out

:51:37.:51:41.

for is recognition for people not just wanting to buy

:51:42.:51:44.

a home but renters, as well. There's a lot of people in London

:51:45.:51:47.

that rent as well and we need to have a policy

:51:48.:51:49.

that is balanced, that seeks to try and improve their housing

:51:50.:51:53.

conditions, so I want more people building homes for people to own,

:51:54.:51:55.

more people building homes to rent in the private sector and more

:51:56.:51:58.

affordable rented homes, as well. London is also going

:51:59.:52:01.

to get new devolution and a decision on Heathrow's third

:52:02.:52:04.

runway any day now. All will be spun as being decisions

:52:05.:52:07.

made for ordinary people but, at least at the moment,

:52:08.:52:10.

what's missing from all what the Prime Minister

:52:11.:52:15.

is going to do about leaving the EU and

:52:16.:52:17.

immigration. We've already talked about that,

:52:18.:52:20.

so let's talk about this. Tulip, what do you see as a change

:52:21.:52:23.

of style here? Is it more dangerous

:52:24.:52:25.

to you in labour than the Look, I don't think she's been

:52:26.:52:28.

in the job that long but Don't forget, this is the lady that

:52:29.:52:32.

signed off the "Go home" vans. If we're talking

:52:33.:52:37.

about immigration they caused huge discontent in my

:52:38.:52:39.

constituency and within Hamstead and Kilburn generally,

:52:40.:52:45.

which is very multicultural. Are you worried about her

:52:46.:53:10.

as an electoral risk? Weakening your own

:53:11.:53:12.

position, Labour's? Actually, you know

:53:13.:53:13.

what I am worried about? I'm worried about the fact

:53:14.:53:15.

that she said Brexit is Brexit but that actually not elaborated

:53:16.:53:18.

on what it means. It feels like she's

:53:19.:53:21.

only person in the world who knows what Brexit means.

:53:22.:53:24.

What's really worried me in the last few weeks,

:53:25.:53:27.

and I'm sure you're aware of it is that this harks back to

:53:28.:53:30.

You can't sit on the steps of Downing Street and talk

:53:31.:53:34.

about not working for a privileged few and then talk about bringing

:53:35.:53:37.

That has worried me tremendously.

:53:38.:53:39.

What have we seen in these early days?

:53:40.:53:43.

I think she has a less gilded sheen about her.

:53:44.:53:46.

You've got to remember, she was a Conservative

:53:47.:53:49.

councillor in Wimbledon for ten years, I think.

:53:50.:53:51.

She's someone who knows the party, has come from the

:53:52.:53:54.

grassroots, she's the daughter of a vicar, she herself went

:53:55.:53:56.

Do you think there will be this very cultural move from Notting

:53:57.:54:00.

I'm not trying to denigrate David Cameron I think

:54:01.:54:03.

But I think people in my constituency will relate to someone

:54:04.:54:07.

if not more, than they did to David Cameron.

:54:08.:54:10.

We've heard about grammar schools but we've had to suggestions

:54:11.:54:14.

What you think about breaking with David Cameron's legacy

:54:15.:54:17.

I think she is evolving. Parties evolve.

:54:18.:54:26.

That's why the Conservative Party is a successful party.

:54:27.:54:28.

They evolve, they have different messages, they have

:54:29.:54:30.

I think we're evolving. I think a new leadership.

:54:31.:54:33.

I happen to support grammar schools, I think

:54:34.:54:36.

It seems odd to me that of the people who are

:54:37.:54:40.

against them tend to go to selective schools

:54:41.:54:50.

What about the clear signal being sent about

:54:51.:54:54.

shifting away from a lot of the resources and attention that went

:54:55.:54:57.

into home ownership to renting, would you go with that?

:54:58.:55:00.

Especially in a place like Spelthorne, which is

:55:01.:55:03.

just outside London and within London itself.

:55:04.:55:05.

You know, it costs, sometimes, ?400,000, as you said, to

:55:06.:55:07.

So people feel that renting is something which is more

:55:08.:55:11.

If they are moving towards addressing issues around rent, which

:55:12.:55:15.

they acknowledge they have not been doing, that's important for

:55:16.:55:17.

You share that and agree with that shift?

:55:18.:55:21.

If that is what it is for the Conservative Party?

:55:22.:55:24.

I support policies if they benefit constituents who are around me and

:55:25.:55:27.

So, in the last manifesto, the Conservative Party

:55:28.:55:29.

didn't mention anything about private renting,

:55:30.:55:31.

So, if they are looking to address it, it's very important

:55:32.:55:35.

because more and more people are renting and we need to protect

:55:36.:55:38.

a lot of people who are renting from what goes on with private landlords

:55:39.:55:41.

Jeremy Corbyn already mentioned it in his speech.

:55:42.:55:45.

We've got to have some form of rent control if we want people to

:55:46.:55:49.

Some people are saying that, maybe, a measure we

:55:50.:55:52.

need is the stamp duty holiday, or to reverse some

:55:53.:55:54.

of the restrictions put on people renting out property.

:55:55.:55:57.

I tended to be slightly sceptical about those sorts of policies

:55:58.:55:59.

because, if you're imposing taxes, essentially, on people who are

:56:00.:56:02.

wanting to enter the rental market as landlords,

:56:03.:56:04.

you're just going to reduce the supply of those

:56:05.:56:06.

properties, which will drive up the price of rents.

:56:07.:56:08.

I was always slightly sceptical about that.

:56:09.:56:16.

We'll have to review it. I think what Tulip said is right.

:56:17.:56:20.

We've got to be realistic about the housing need in

:56:21.:56:22.

London and the provision and renting is an increasingly important part of

:56:23.:56:25.

Now, for the rest of the political news

:56:26.:56:30.

At the Labour Party conference in Liverpool, Sadiq Khan

:56:31.:56:34.

set out his vision for Labour in emphatic terms.

:56:35.:56:37.

He mentioned his leader just the once.

:56:38.:56:52.

Prior to the conference it is alleged that the

:56:53.:56:57.

London mayor and Labour's party leader

:56:58.:57:00.

Nevertheless, when Jeremy Corbyn delivered his keynote speech

:57:01.:57:06.

to the party faithful, he included a positive

:57:07.:57:08.

In the May elections we overtook the Tories to become

:57:09.:57:12.

We won back London with a massive win for Sadiq Khan, the

:57:13.:57:24.

first Muslim mayor of Western capital city.

:57:25.:57:25.

Well, it was very entertaining. How many times did he mention it?

:57:26.:57:40.

I mean, he's clearly on a high, he's just become

:57:41.:57:44.

Mayor of London, he wants power, I think he wants

:57:45.:57:46.

Should you be scared? Very scared?

:57:47.:57:49.

I think he's very driven by power and he's a successful politician.

:57:50.:57:54.

I think he's eminently beatable, certainly, in the country.

:57:55.:57:56.

If I were Jeremy, I'd be very worried.

:57:57.:58:02.

Not to mention him once and talk about power.

:58:03.:58:04.

I'm pretty sure he beat your candidate quite badly.

:58:05.:58:12.

Slight problem when you've got mayor and leader so obviously wanting

:58:13.:58:15.

I think that is being too harsh on him.

:58:16.:58:21.

Sadiq Khan is being harsh on Jeremy Corbyn?

:58:22.:58:26.

No, I think you are being harsh on Sadiq.

:58:27.:58:28.

He didn't want to smile and applaud when he was being mentioned.

:58:29.:58:35.

Do you think this is going to become a narrative now,

:58:36.:58:38.

people will constantly see him as the leader across the water?

:58:39.:58:40.

I think Sadiq has just got the job of Mayor of London.

:58:41.:58:43.

I think he is going to do a much better job than

:58:44.:58:46.

And we're joined now by the former Work and Pensions Secretary

:58:47.:59:06.

and Leave campaigner, Iain Duncan Smith.

:59:07.:59:13.

it you said we could be out of the European Union by 2018? My senses if

:59:14.:59:25.

you keep their process as simple as possible and don't try to get

:59:26.:59:30.

special pleading and try to be a member of the single market which

:59:31.:59:34.

they are not going to grant you, if you go for a clear and simple

:59:35.:59:41.

position on trade and find an agreement then the more complex

:59:42.:59:46.

issues then disappear. Theresa May has said that when she brings the

:59:47.:59:53.

act forward to repeal the 1972 act, at the same time you binding the

:59:54.:59:59.

European Law and you speed the process up. Keeping it simple,

:00:00.:00:04.

keeping up pace is what we recommended. It allows you to get

:00:05.:00:06.

the end point quicker. You talk about member of the single

:00:07.:00:15.

market, Chris Grayling told me there was no such thing, which slightly

:00:16.:00:20.

puzzled me. You clearly think that there is. What you want, as I

:00:21.:00:25.

understand it, is a free-trade agreement with the European Union.

:00:26.:00:30.

That could not be done by 2018? We want free trade. There are two

:00:31.:00:33.

approaches to getting free trade with the European Union. The first

:00:34.:00:39.

is that you say, OK, in this process, if we sympathise and ask

:00:40.:00:43.

ourselves, if we now have a new relationship, we have left, we want

:00:44.:00:50.

capital goods, we want to access each other's markets, it benefits

:00:51.:00:54.

you more than us, but we are happy not to have tariff barriers on your

:00:55.:00:58.

trade, we have an agreement of no tariff barriers. Financial services

:00:59.:01:02.

are outside, a separate issue, more of a regulatory issue. That is also

:01:03.:01:06.

approaching a deal on equivalence that we could accelerate. The point

:01:07.:01:10.

I am saying is if you do not go down the road trying to nominate

:01:11.:01:14.

individual bits and pieces and say it is a good agreement for us both,

:01:15.:01:18.

you could reach that by agreement. If you don't and you can't, you

:01:19.:01:22.

could fall back on the WTO arrangements and say, well, later

:01:23.:01:27.

on, we will continue that negotiation discussion to decide

:01:28.:01:32.

whether or not we want a free-trade position. If you fall back on that,

:01:33.:01:36.

what you say to the boss of Nissan, who says he will not invest again in

:01:37.:01:41.

this unless the government back row compensates him, he faces tariffs?

:01:42.:01:46.

The answer to that is that first of all I did not believe we will end up

:01:47.:01:51.

in a situation where it is, in any way, a financial benefit for the

:01:52.:01:53.

European Union to want to impose any kind tariff. Right now you are 12%

:01:54.:02:01.

better off anyway. The level of the pound has made it 12% more

:02:02.:02:04.

competitive with European partners, even if you slapped on 10% tariff.

:02:05.:02:10.

It goes up and down, but you asking him to take investment decisions,

:02:11.:02:15.

multi-billion pound decisions, head of Jaguar, saying roughly the same

:02:16.:02:18.

thing, at a time of real uncertainty. Until it is resolved,

:02:19.:02:27.

investment in Britain will slow down, if not dry up? They invest

:02:28.:02:31.

because this is a darn good place to sell your businesses. You heard from

:02:32.:02:35.

the head of the publishing sector in Germany, he said Britain in five

:02:36.:02:38.

years' time will be much more profitable than anywhere else and

:02:39.:02:46.

will be the boom place. Outside the European Union it will be more

:02:47.:02:49.

flexible to set out arrangements. I am with him on this. I was in

:02:50.:02:52.

business before I came into politics. Nobody knows what the

:02:53.:02:58.

future holds for anything. For car makers and others that want to build

:02:59.:03:02.

stuff, they are here because they want a flexible workforce, much

:03:03.:03:07.

lower levels of cost, and a much better contract law base. 85% of

:03:08.:03:11.

Nissan's output goes to the single market. That is right, they also

:03:12.:03:18.

sell here. 15%? You are not suddenly going to meet a massive tariff wall,

:03:19.:03:23.

a closet is not in the interests of the European Union to set up a

:03:24.:03:26.

massive tariffs. Guess who sells more to us than we do to them? The

:03:27.:03:30.

European Union. The Germans themselves are behind-the-scenes

:03:31.:03:35.

talking to us. We had a lot of that during the referendum. Let me move

:03:36.:03:39.

onto some other things. Damian Green is now running your old department.

:03:40.:03:43.

He is scrapping repeated tests for the seriously disabled, people that

:03:44.:03:47.

you know are not going to be able to improve. Why didn't you do that? We

:03:48.:03:54.

wanted to change this, it was a programme given to us by the last

:03:55.:03:58.

Labour government, we did quite a lot to improve it. The big problem,

:03:59.:04:02.

the programme as it exists at the moment, it does not deal with health

:04:03.:04:05.

conditions, it deals with ability to work. That is the problem. If you

:04:06.:04:09.

want to scrap it for people with health conditions, you have to

:04:10.:04:12.

change the criteria by which they are being assessed. That has always

:04:13.:04:16.

been the issue. For disability payments, it is a different matter.

:04:17.:04:28.

They are assessed on their condition. The problem for that...

:04:29.:04:30.

He will stop the assessments of people that are seriously disabled,

:04:31.:04:32.

why didn't you do that? This is not seriously disabled, it is people

:04:33.:04:34.

that suffer from sickness conditions, not necessarily

:04:35.:04:37.

full-time disability. There are two elements. When I was in Government,

:04:38.:04:41.

we have always set out a process that said we needed to change the

:04:42.:04:44.

way the sickness benefit system was assessed. That was so you could rule

:04:45.:04:50.

out conditions, some progressive, some absolute, on a medical basis,

:04:51.:04:54.

on the approval of the Health Service, so they would say this is a

:04:55.:04:58.

condition that will change, it will mean they cannot work now but they

:04:59.:05:02.

might be able to work for a bit. You put it into a box marked medical

:05:03.:05:06.

conditions. That was already on the box. He has just done that, to

:05:07.:05:11.

acclaim. Why didn't you do it, if it is that simple? We needed to get

:05:12.:05:16.

agreement in Government and we have not reached the Provo ease approval.

:05:17.:05:21.

It is a wider plan. This could have been incremented on its own? But you

:05:22.:05:26.

have to change the way you do it. I was in favour of a bigger plan that

:05:27.:05:33.

brought in changes all into one, because they are competing with each

:05:34.:05:36.

other and do not have the kind of effect that you want. It is the

:05:37.:05:40.

right thing to do. Until now, there have not been a huge number of

:05:41.:05:43.

assessments taking place because the system has not been able to cover

:05:44.:05:50.

it. There is a lot of talk about trying to reposition the Tory party

:05:51.:05:54.

on the centre ground, even the centre-left, talking about worker's

:05:55.:05:58.

rights and so on. It is not credible until she does something. 6 million

:05:59.:06:05.

people earn less than the Living Wage, after six years of

:06:06.:06:08.

Conservative government. 6 million people earn less than the Living

:06:09.:06:12.

Wage. That is the reality, not Tory erect a wreck that we are hearing in

:06:13.:06:21.

the hall. -- that is the Tory rhetoric. Raising the minimum wage

:06:22.:06:27.

was making sure that you identify that and raise the blood. There are

:06:28.:06:34.

still 6 million below. The mantra of this government was to make work

:06:35.:06:40.

pay. 50% of families in poverty have at least one family member working.

:06:41.:06:46.

They are still in poverty, waiting, doing difficult and unpleasant jobs,

:06:47.:06:49.

long hours, they are still in poverty. Many people in this country

:06:50.:06:56.

work and still it is the equivalent of poverty. That does not pay, work

:06:57.:07:03.

does not pay for them. Huge problems down the low skill level of work.

:07:04.:07:13.

This is the one area, the level of skills at that point is arguably

:07:14.:07:17.

some of the lowest in the Western world. Companies too often do not

:07:18.:07:21.

invest in skills because of the nature of the tax credit system, you

:07:22.:07:26.

have them in packets of 16 hours, it is not worth investing. Universal

:07:27.:07:29.

Credit will change all of that quite dramatically. It allows people to

:07:30.:07:33.

work more of the hours, invest more in them. The second aspect is back

:07:34.:07:37.

to the migration issue. That has had a very damaging effect on low

:07:38.:07:40.

workers. There are two elements of this. It is not just the statutory

:07:41.:07:46.

migration, it is that what happened is that a lot of people come for

:07:47.:07:50.

under one year. They do part-time work, they claim full benefits,

:07:51.:07:57.

Migration Watch proved it is over 4 billion per year. That allows them

:07:58.:08:02.

to go and do cash in hand work. It is a big problem, it has only now

:08:03.:08:07.

become clear how damaging that has become to British people working at

:08:08.:08:11.

low income level. What does this party, if it is this self-styled

:08:12.:08:15.

Workers Party, what does it have to do in a country where 6 million

:08:16.:08:20.

people get less than the Living Wage, 50% of people in poverty are

:08:21.:08:24.

already in work and poverty levels among those in work are at record

:08:25.:08:32.

levels. So much for the worker's party? The answer is it has to do a

:08:33.:08:41.

lot, we have been talking about Brexit a lot, Theresa May has

:08:42.:08:43.

dropped a lot of hints about what she wants to do. The announcement

:08:44.:08:49.

yesterday morning about this massive review, led by a Blairite, Matthew

:08:50.:08:54.

Taylor, to completely re-examine employment rights. Thereby meaning,

:08:55.:08:59.

for the low paid and the casual workers, holiday pay for Uber

:09:00.:09:07.

drivers, it opens a massive area of things, grammar schools... You need

:09:08.:09:20.

high-quality technology schools to up-skill its? She has all of this on

:09:21.:09:24.

her agenda, possibly more interesting than even Brexit. I was

:09:25.:09:29.

planning not to mention Brexit in this segment, but I think I did.

:09:30.:09:34.

There was a lot of flesh to be put on his bones before it is

:09:35.:09:38.

convincing? Theresa May is playing a political game of trying to dump the

:09:39.:09:44.

nasty party image, become a more compassionate conservative. She is

:09:45.:09:51.

changing from the David Cameron era, instead of being the bottom 10% or

:09:52.:09:55.

15% of people that he was focusing on, as well as the wealthier elite,

:09:56.:10:00.

she is looking at the people earning more than ?16,000, up to ?21,000,

:10:01.:10:05.

those who have children that are not on free school meals, not the most

:10:06.:10:11.

deprived, she calls them the just managing classes, they might have

:10:12.:10:14.

one for holiday each year, they might want to send their kids to

:10:15.:10:18.

piano lessons or the local Football Club, they are not the poorest

:10:19.:10:23.

people on welfare. That could have an impact on what you're saying, it

:10:24.:10:27.

could also undermine her reputation for being compassionate if she is

:10:28.:10:30.

seen to be abandoning the people that need help most. There is always

:10:31.:10:34.

a political case for doing something for Middle Britain, where most

:10:35.:10:38.

people are. They call at Middle America over there and so on. But

:10:39.:10:41.

these are not the in work but in poverty. Being a worker's party, one

:10:42.:10:48.

that dines out on its support for work, if it is to do anything, it

:10:49.:10:53.

has to do something about these people? The key issue is what the

:10:54.:11:00.

economic policies are in this new government. Nobody on the programme

:11:01.:11:03.

this morning has talked about the deficit, which George Osborne framed

:11:04.:11:12.

everything around, to the point where, as they know better than

:11:13.:11:16.

anyone, he struggles to get welfare reforms affected because of our

:11:17.:11:19.

budget cuts that hit those on low income in work. Until we know the

:11:20.:11:25.

degree to which the framing of that deficit strategy has changed, we

:11:26.:11:29.

will not really know the space they will have to make sure that does not

:11:30.:11:33.

happen over the next few years and the opposite happens. That applies

:11:34.:11:37.

to all of these issues, actually. The economy will provide the space,

:11:38.:11:42.

or not, to do these things. The Treasury is telling the Chancellor

:11:43.:11:48.

that the slowdown in the economy, not as slow as they thought, but

:11:49.:11:53.

still a slowdown, that, in itself, will widen the deficit. Therefore,

:11:54.:11:57.

he is not going to have a tonne of money to throw around on top of

:11:58.:12:01.

that, which would widen the deficit even further. There is room for

:12:02.:12:06.

manoeuvre which may be quite slight? Not quite true. He has abandoned

:12:07.:12:12.

George Osborne's fiscal targets. Having already taken this into

:12:13.:12:15.

account by what they think is the slowing of the economy. They have

:12:16.:12:18.

been wrong in the past, but that is why they have done that. There is

:12:19.:12:23.

not a turn of money around to spend billions on infrastructure, unless,

:12:24.:12:27.

of course, like Mr Corbyn, you want to borrow it. When you say you are

:12:28.:12:31.

not going to eradicate the deficit by 2020, that is what you mean. If

:12:32.:12:37.

he needs to cushion the Brexit impact, if there is one, I don't

:12:38.:12:42.

think we could pay off the deficit by 2020. Then you'll have all of

:12:43.:12:46.

this money to do what you want with. Final thought? There is also the

:12:47.:12:50.

attitude about business and the attitude to the super rich and well.

:12:51.:12:54.

I think Theresa May will concentrate on that more than David Cameron,

:12:55.:12:58.

alleviating concerns. The Autumn Statement from the Chancellor will

:12:59.:13:01.

be as big as any of the statements we hear this week. I am glad to hear

:13:02.:13:06.

it, it will be coming up live on a Daily Politics special.

:13:07.:13:09.

at the Conservative Party conference here in Birmingham.

:13:10.:13:12.

Fear not, I'll be back tomorrow at 11am for a two-hour special

:13:13.:13:15.

as Chancellor Philip Hammond takes to the stage.

:13:16.:13:18.

We are back on Tuesday and Wednesday bringing Theresa May's speech on

:13:19.:13:26.

Wednesday just before lunch. We will be back next Sunday as well.

:13:27.:13:28.

In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday, it's

:13:29.:13:31.

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