20/11/2016 Sunday Politics London


20/11/2016

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LineFromTo

Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving

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the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?

:00:42.:00:46.

Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime

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The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending

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on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be

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Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.

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Now the second UKIP leadership election this year

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So who can restore order to this fractious party?

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in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or

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is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?

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And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing

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the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative

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dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott

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and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.

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First this morning - Theresa May has said

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"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -

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who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum

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Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching

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the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet

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Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to

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deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,

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100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to

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making a success of Brexit for the country.

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We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then

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have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity

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coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we

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face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind

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when you talk about negativity the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,

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for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving

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membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what

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we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat

:03:15.:03:17.

negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and

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the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards

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both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position

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clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to

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review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what

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you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards

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membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure

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British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new

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trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at

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Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house

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this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.

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And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on

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what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union

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at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs

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union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and

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other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are

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preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing

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carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we

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have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do

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you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is

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not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the

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moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we

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cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement

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with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.

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Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We

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still want to trade with the EU and I think we can have a free trade

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agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do

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with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave

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the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the

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most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime

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Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be

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right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have

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a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a

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binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the

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Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I

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am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had

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said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the

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constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not

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securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,

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we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that

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if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade

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deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do

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you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with

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substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access

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to the single market, that goods going from this country to the

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single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject

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to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost

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business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement

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between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,

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but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on

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our own tariffs once we've left we can't just export again willy-nilly

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to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do

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that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we

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agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,

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we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which

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sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our

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industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU

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but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European

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Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a %

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tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and

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goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of

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the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.

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Every bottle of Japanese whisky they will have to work out the rules

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of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for

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50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of

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free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view

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Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could

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not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is

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messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a

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campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is

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this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other

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side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that

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the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only

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through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem

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to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through

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amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to

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hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the

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Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs

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union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in

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the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good

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faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a

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Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,

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but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel

:10:09.:10:14.

has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.

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Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since

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the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms

:10:23.:10:28.

of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single

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market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and

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services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they

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can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We

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saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they

:10:47.:10:53.

hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into

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a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going

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to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask

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for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you

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want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting

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it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is

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150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we

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have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about

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what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.

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Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU

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also means quitting the

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Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free

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movement of goods, services, capital and people.

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They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting

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politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during

:12:02.:12:04.

Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost

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certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.

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When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay

:12:17.:12:20.

"No, we should be outside the Single Market."

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And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael

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Gove was absolutely right to say the UK

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They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before

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the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the

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Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving

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the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

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Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,

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once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually

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And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said

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that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some

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But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what

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To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're

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joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave

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campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many

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were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was

:13:36.:13:43.

made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12

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statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the

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referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

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Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian

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model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went

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out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading

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arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the

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Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade

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agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the

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12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself

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when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The

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Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters

:14:31.:14:33.

They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.

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But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should

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stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked

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about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from

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Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would

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have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back

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to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point

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stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.

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Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave

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movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place

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in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave

:15:20.:15:23.

campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have

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highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners

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over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments

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accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full

:15:38.:15:42.

thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade

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agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.

:15:48.:15:55.

There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the

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clip you used on Owen Paterson first.

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Only a madman would actually leave the market.

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Only a madman would actually leave the market.

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It's not the EU which is

:16:11.:16:11.

a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.

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It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on

:16:15.:16:18.

I mean, are we really suggesting that the

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economy in the world is not going to come to come

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to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?

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Are we going to be like Sudan and North

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It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a

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What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that

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we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country

:16:46.:16:49.

in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our

:16:50.:16:52.

trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David

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Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box

:16:57.:17:00.

recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the

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Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of

:17:05.:17:08.

course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't

:17:09.:17:09.

think he was about axis, he is talking

:17:10.:17:28.

about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks

:17:29.:17:31.

about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap

:17:32.:17:33.

off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's

:17:34.:17:36.

the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and

:17:37.:17:38.

Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,

:17:39.:17:41.

the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and

:17:42.:17:43.

tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the

:17:44.:17:46.

views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.

:17:47.:17:47.

When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that

:17:48.:17:50.

it might be initially attractive for some business people.

:17:51.:17:52.

So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in

:17:53.:17:56.

the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian

:17:57.:18:00.

option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive

:18:01.:18:03.

for some business people. But then again for voters

:18:04.:18:05.

who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,

:18:06.:18:08.

they will be very concerned that it allows free movement

:18:09.:18:11.

of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.

:18:12.:18:23.

He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real

:18:24.:18:26.

problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.

:18:27.:18:30.

But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them

:18:31.:18:33.

accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what

:18:34.:18:37.

we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying

:18:38.:18:41.

the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It

:18:42.:18:45.

might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free

:18:46.:18:52.

movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are

:18:53.:18:57.

saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are

:18:58.:18:59.

distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.

:19:00.:19:02.

On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:19:03.:19:04.

This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t

:19:05.:19:12.

run. There is absolutely

:19:13.:19:13.

nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving

:19:14.:19:15.

the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part

:19:16.:19:16.

of the European Economic Area and we should use our

:19:17.:19:21.

membership of the EEA as a holding position from which

:19:22.:19:29.

we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export

:19:30.:19:33.

market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,

:19:34.:19:35.

if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we

:19:36.:19:45.

should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA

:19:46.:19:50.

as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip

:19:51.:20:00.

is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a

:20:01.:20:04.

distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a

:20:05.:20:07.

definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,

:20:08.:20:10.

for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go

:20:11.:20:15.

on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he

:20:16.:20:18.

does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't

:20:19.:20:22.

let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he

:20:23.:20:25.

wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would

:20:26.:20:29.

be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea

:20:30.:20:33.

now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the

:20:34.:20:36.

Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all

:20:37.:20:40.

had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the

:20:41.:20:45.

full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out

:20:46.:20:49.

there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave

:20:50.:20:52.

campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout

:20:53.:20:56.

the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market

:20:57.:21:00.

is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the

:21:01.:21:04.

montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime

:21:05.:21:08.

Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being

:21:09.:21:11.

categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave

:21:12.:21:15.

membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you

:21:16.:21:18.

understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to

:21:19.:21:21.

leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other

:21:22.:21:27.

promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT

:21:28.:21:32.

cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of

:21:33.:21:35.

any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan

:21:36.:21:39.

has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You

:21:40.:21:44.

spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting

:21:45.:21:46.

and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen

:21:47.:21:49.

this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is

:21:50.:21:53.

perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have

:21:54.:21:56.

a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.

:21:57.:22:00.

That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to

:22:01.:22:03.

stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag

:22:04.:22:08.

us out of our biggest trading partner.

:22:09.:22:10.

Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up

:22:11.:22:12.

their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week

:22:13.:22:14.

in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest

:22:15.:22:17.

this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -

:22:18.:22:19.

stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from

:22:20.:22:22.

farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,

:22:23.:22:25.

split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're

:22:26.:22:41.

having their second Watch as the alpha male,

:22:42.:22:51.

the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,

:22:52.:22:58.

the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha

:22:59.:23:00.

female Diane James. The European Parliament

:23:01.:23:03.

in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible

:23:04.:23:17.

future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,

:23:18.:23:20.

has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague

:23:21.:23:22.

during a meeting. A few days later he is

:23:23.:23:25.

out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my

:23:26.:23:27.

application to become I'm actually withdrawing

:23:28.:23:31.

myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party

:23:32.:23:34.

I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document

:23:35.:23:41.

suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political

:23:42.:23:44.

campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes

:23:45.:23:49.

over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,

:23:50.:23:55.

a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for

:23:56.:23:58.

disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,

:23:59.:24:07.

an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side

:24:08.:24:10.

as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast

:24:11.:24:16.

in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told

:24:17.:24:18.

that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,

:24:19.:24:21.

a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance

:24:22.:24:26.

to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated

:24:27.:24:29.

passionate supporters who feel like they're not really

:24:30.:24:43.

being listened to and are not even Typically what happens

:24:44.:24:46.

is they just basically sit there until six months before

:24:47.:24:49.

a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out

:24:50.:24:51.

and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel

:24:52.:24:54.

there is not an adequate flow of communication

:24:55.:24:56.

up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in

:24:57.:24:58.

any hustings? He left a hustings saying

:24:59.:25:07.

the contest was an establishment coronation and has

:25:08.:25:10.

made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty

:25:11.:25:13.

for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear

:25:14.:25:15.

will amongst the offences should be dealt with

:25:16.:25:17.

decisively. But again, on an issue like that,

:25:18.:25:21.

that is something that Our members are not

:25:22.:25:24.

going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that

:25:25.:25:29.

I would have any authority to have the say and determine

:25:30.:25:31.

the future What method would you use

:25:32.:25:33.

for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could

:25:34.:25:37.

be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online

:25:38.:25:39.

poll about whether you use the electric chair,

:25:40.:25:44.

or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made

:25:45.:25:50.

in favour of This is such a small aspect

:25:51.:25:52.

of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media

:25:53.:25:56.

they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant

:25:57.:25:58.

details. This is one vote that

:25:59.:26:04.

the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do

:26:05.:26:06.

in this party is to revolutionise the democratic

:26:07.:26:10.

process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should

:26:11.:26:13.

be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip

:26:14.:26:17.

would win at Meanwhile, in New York,

:26:18.:26:19.

on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage

:26:20.:26:27.

of the President-elect, a man he has described as

:26:28.:26:36.

a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some

:26:37.:26:38.

in this leadership contest. There are also elections

:26:39.:26:41.

to the party's National Executive Committee, a body

:26:42.:26:44.

that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two

:26:45.:26:46.

of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -

:26:47.:27:01.

Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving

:27:02.:27:11.

each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be

:27:12.:27:14.

the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.

:27:15.:27:17.

Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,

:27:18.:27:20.

forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it

:27:21.:27:24.

really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win

:27:25.:27:28.

seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we

:27:29.:27:32.

need to attract more women, more ethnic

:27:33.:27:52.

minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their

:27:53.:27:54.

party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my

:27:55.:27:57.

leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical

:27:58.:27:59.

party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne

:28:00.:28:02.

Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.

:28:03.:28:04.

I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and

:28:05.:28:07.

prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I

:28:08.:28:09.

am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done

:28:10.:28:12.

every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,

:28:13.:28:14.

whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past

:28:15.:28:17.

six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour

:28:18.:28:19.

constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of

:28:20.:28:23.

working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet

:28:24.:28:26.

are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a

:28:27.:28:33.

mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to

:28:34.:28:37.

realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get

:28:38.:28:41.

together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles

:28:42.:28:44.

within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and

:28:45.:28:49.

whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion

:28:50.:28:53.

polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on

:28:54.:28:58.

the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a

:28:59.:29:01.

grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in

:29:02.:29:05.

the party as well and also a background that I think means I can

:29:06.:29:08.

help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity

:29:09.:29:18.

faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.

:29:19.:29:21.

There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee

:29:22.:29:23.

going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have

:29:24.:29:26.

ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I

:29:27.:29:29.

think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more

:29:30.:29:32.

open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive

:29:33.:29:37.

Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to

:29:38.:29:41.

be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better

:29:42.:29:43.

communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a

:29:44.:29:48.

clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,

:29:49.:29:52.

Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person

:29:53.:29:56.

who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show

:29:57.:29:59.

you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with

:30:00.:30:06.

President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's

:30:07.:30:09.

decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr

:30:10.:30:14.

Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.

:30:15.:30:19.

I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is

:30:20.:30:22.

President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the

:30:23.:30:28.

campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,

:30:29.:30:31.

pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put

:30:32.:30:34.

the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne

:30:35.:30:40.

Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I

:30:41.:30:44.

said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The

:30:45.:30:48.

better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is

:30:49.:30:52.

quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr

:30:53.:30:57.

Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have

:30:58.:31:02.

that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not

:31:03.:31:06.

out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is

:31:07.:31:09.

according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let

:31:10.:31:15.

me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself

:31:16.:31:18.

in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country

:31:19.:31:22.

ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in

:31:23.:31:23.

2020. The other thing your leader has in

:31:24.:31:34.

common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do

:31:35.:31:40.

you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and

:31:41.:31:47.

Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is

:31:48.:31:51.

pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle

:31:52.:31:56.

East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to

:31:57.:32:03.

bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the

:32:04.:32:07.

conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American

:32:08.:32:11.

line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is

:32:12.:32:18.

affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these

:32:19.:32:22.

people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial

:32:23.:32:30.

breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage

:32:31.:32:33.

unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do

:32:34.:32:38.

you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I

:32:39.:32:42.

was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,

:32:43.:32:47.

and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were

:32:48.:32:50.

already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth

:32:51.:32:54.

that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control

:32:55.:32:56.

immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering

:32:57.:33:05.

voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it

:33:06.:33:09.

was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed

:33:10.:33:13.

to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.

:33:14.:33:18.

People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip

:33:19.:33:24.

shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you

:33:25.:33:31.

different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone

:33:32.:33:34.

for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from

:33:35.:33:37.

the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns

:33:38.:33:44.

with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa

:33:45.:33:52.

into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,

:33:53.:33:55.

particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I

:33:56.:34:00.

want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the

:34:01.:34:06.

low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national

:34:07.:34:10.

anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks

:34:11.:34:14.

anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John

:34:15.:34:18.

McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for

:34:19.:34:22.

working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.

:34:23.:34:27.

It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I

:34:28.:34:33.

first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic

:34:34.:34:36.

opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at

:34:37.:34:40.

me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have

:34:41.:34:43.

seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death

:34:44.:34:50.

penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more

:34:51.:34:54.

money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to

:34:55.:34:58.

fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our

:34:59.:35:07.

manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come

:35:08.:35:12.

from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being

:35:13.:35:17.

taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the

:35:18.:35:22.

money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because

:35:23.:35:26.

that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on

:35:27.:35:31.

management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,

:35:32.:35:36.

foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership

:35:37.:35:41.

fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It

:35:42.:35:44.

cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are

:35:45.:35:51.

not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you

:35:52.:35:57.

get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.

:35:58.:36:03.

Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25

:36:04.:36:07.

million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer

:36:08.:36:12.

than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away

:36:13.:36:16.

from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?

:36:17.:36:32.

Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.

:36:33.:36:40.

Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you

:36:41.:36:45.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:46.:36:49.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:50.:36:52.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:36:53.:36:55.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:36:56.:37:05.

Not for the first time we are preoccupied this week

:37:06.:37:09.

Zac Goldsmith stood down over Heathrow.

:37:10.:37:15.

He says the by-election he's now caused is about Heathrow.

:37:16.:37:17.

This is also a chance to give a verdict on Brexit.

:37:18.:37:22.

We'll have the Liberal Democrat candidate contesting

:37:23.:37:24.

the Richmond Park and North Kingston by-election here with us

:37:25.:37:27.

Here already are Siobhain McDonagh, Labour MP for Mitcham and Morden,

:37:28.:37:32.

and Tania Mathias, Conservative MP for Twickenham,

:37:33.:37:35.

neighbouring constituency to Richmond Park, of course.

:37:36.:37:37.

And let's start with the news that four Tory councils have pledged

:37:38.:37:42.

to launch judicial review proceedings against

:37:43.:37:43.

the Government unless - within the next fortnight -

:37:44.:37:47.

it withdraws that decision to build a third runway.

:37:48.:37:50.

This week London's Mayor also indicated backing of sorts.

:37:51.:37:56.

I'm now signalling my support for a potential

:37:57.:37:58.

legal challenge of the

:37:59.:38:00.

Government decision to build a third runway at Heathrow.

:38:01.:38:04.

I promised I wouldn't just stand by and see

:38:05.:38:06.

hundreds of thousands suffer from the additional noise and air

:38:07.:38:09.

pollution, and I'm ready to help ensure that this misery isn't

:38:10.:38:13.

Siobhain, we're not quite clear from what he's been saying so far

:38:14.:38:18.

about how much money he's putting into any

:38:19.:38:21.

kind of legal challenge, but should he be putting

:38:22.:38:23.

You're someone who now favours this decision to go ahead, are you?

:38:24.:38:27.

I fully support Heathrow, and I think

:38:28.:38:28.

Sadiq is a fabulous mayor but I think he's wrong about this.

:38:29.:38:31.

I think it's really important for London,

:38:32.:38:34.

particularly in the face of Brexit, that we have easy access by

:38:35.:38:37.

aeroplane into London and that choice has got to be Heathrow.

:38:38.:38:42.

And I would lay down a challenge also I

:38:43.:38:48.

believe there's probably more people in Zac's constituency and in

:38:49.:38:51.

Twickenham, I would argue, that support a third runway for the jobs

:38:52.:38:54.

and the possibility of a good livelihood.

:38:55.:38:57.

I will let Tania come back on that in a second.

:38:58.:39:00.

It was not long ago that Sadiq Khan, of course,

:39:01.:39:07.

supported Labour Party policy and agreed that Heathrow should be

:39:08.:39:09.

Should any kind of sense of public money, should he continue

:39:10.:39:13.

Well, I think it's important for the London mayor

:39:14.:39:16.

to take a position, and

:39:17.:39:18.

I'm sure he has his reasons for believing what he does.

:39:19.:39:20.

And I don't doubt his sincerity at all.

:39:21.:39:22.

But I think the future of London, in my

:39:23.:39:24.

opinion, is with a third runway at Heathrow.

:39:25.:39:27.

I would actually say, I

:39:28.:39:28.

would put another one at Gatwick as well.

:39:29.:39:32.

Tania Mathias is barely suppressing the smile on your face.

:39:33.:39:34.

Thank you for letting me come in there.

:39:35.:39:36.

Sadiq Khan in his mayoral campaign was very clear that he was

:39:37.:39:40.

As soon as he was elected mayor he sent a

:39:41.:39:47.

letter that we asked him as MPs who were concerned,

:39:48.:39:49.

London MPs who were concerned, will you continue to be

:39:50.:39:52.

He wrote that letter immediately, and I'm

:39:53.:39:56.

Remember the nitrogen dioxide levels were breached.

:39:57.:40:10.

The annual levels were breached on the

:40:11.:40:12.

So for the sake of all Londoners, we are talking about

:40:13.:40:16.

Greater London, airport expansion is needed

:40:17.:40:17.

but should not be at Heathrow for environmental reasons.

:40:18.:40:19.

Just very briefly, what about that contention

:40:20.:40:21.

Siobhain says that actually if you took

:40:22.:40:23.

everybody in those seats in

:40:24.:40:24.

Richmond Park actually we would have a majority that might say now,

:40:25.:40:27.

let's go ahead with this, we need it?

:40:28.:40:29.

Under a Conservative council when I was councillor

:40:30.:40:31.

in Richmond Borough we did a referendum and we got 80%

:40:32.:40:34.

It was over 100,000, so it's actually one

:40:35.:40:39.

of the most extensive surveys that we've done.

:40:40.:40:41.

Everyone imagines it is

:40:42.:40:42.

slightly self-selecting, that the people who feel strongly want to

:40:43.:40:45.

Every single survey we've done there would be

:40:46.:40:55.

20%, but when we talk about the health of Greater London.

:40:56.:40:58.

Let's move on because we can cover this after we've done...

:40:59.:41:02.

On that point, it's not the planes that are causing the major

:41:03.:41:05.

pollution, it's the cars on the way to the airport that cause the

:41:06.:41:08.

Some of London's greatest pollution is on the Edgeware Road,

:41:09.:41:12.

on Green Lanes where poorer people frequently die.

:41:13.:41:13.

Airport expansion in

:41:14.:41:14.

Heathrow, 800 million would be spent on car parks.

:41:15.:41:17.

As I said, we are preoccupied with planes and airports

:41:18.:41:22.

Let's get on to that by-election in south-west London.

:41:23.:41:26.

It's a contest where the Tories and Ukip are not putting up

:41:27.:41:29.

a candidate, in order to help the chances of the independent Zac

:41:30.:41:31.

And the Greens decided not to stand to strengthen

:41:32.:41:35.

the anti-Goldsmith cause, by trying to avoid splitting

:41:36.:41:37.

The Liberal Democrats are certainly pumping effort and resources

:41:38.:41:42.

Could they regain a seat lost in 2010?

:41:43.:41:45.

The very same day that the government

:41:46.:41:51.

announced they wanted to

:41:52.:41:52.

push ahead with the third runway at Heathrow last month, the

:41:53.:41:55.

Conservative MP for Richmond Park, Zac Goldsmith, resigned his seat in

:41:56.:41:59.

protest forcing a by-election which he is contesting as an independent.

:42:00.:42:05.

Now, Zac Goldsmith says that he wants this

:42:06.:42:07.

to be a referendum on

:42:08.:42:08.

But the difficulty is that what s on the ballot paper not a

:42:09.:42:14.

yes/no question about a third runway but a list of candidates and

:42:15.:42:17.

all his main opponents not only say they're against airport expansion

:42:18.:42:20.

here but they are also trying to make this vote about much more

:42:21.:42:23.

This week saw the first and so far only debate between

:42:24.:42:32.

the candidates organised by the anti-Heathrow group Hacan.

:42:33.:42:35.

This is our chance as a community to send an

:42:36.:42:38.

undiluted and clear and forceful message to government and to

:42:39.:42:41.

Heathrow, no ifs, no buts, no third runway.

:42:42.:42:46.

On the flyer it said there was one topic for

:42:47.:42:50.

Europe the happier the Brexit sceptic Lib Dems are going to be.

:42:51.:43:08.

The party are a lifting their biggest stars in on a daily basis.

:43:09.:43:15.

so I'm getting very used to Richmond Station.

:43:16.:43:20.

But it's also the constituency that could potentially

:43:21.:43:26.

change the direction of British politics and without wanting to

:43:27.:43:28.

oversell this, potentially change how Britain is over the next 50

:43:29.:43:31.

The Lib Dems used to hold the seat until 2010 and until the

:43:32.:43:39.

weekend so they had 1000 activists on the streets campaigning for the

:43:40.:43:42.

I think the problem for Zac is you can't dictate

:43:43.:43:57.

You can't sort of say as he has in his great sort of flurry of

:43:58.:44:02.

melodrama, it's all about me, me, me.

:44:03.:44:04.

It's actually about who represents this

:44:05.:44:07.

And while planes do loom large over the skies

:44:08.:44:10.

of Richmond Park the people we spoke to on the street did seem to be

:44:11.:44:13.

Zac Goldsmith is the Brexit candidate and it's

:44:14.:44:17.

When he ran that campaign against Sadiq Khan, all of the way

:44:18.:44:21.

he kind of went about it, I didn't like

:44:22.:44:23.

He's been reasonably good for the area.

:44:24.:44:28.

But this isn't a normal by-election in at least one regard

:44:29.:44:31.

The Conservatives, Ukip and greens aren't putting up candidates.

:44:32.:44:33.

Other than the Lib Dems the only major

:44:34.:44:35.

And they've chosen the transport journalist Christian Wolmar as their

:44:36.:44:39.

Well, we thought strongly about this and decided that actually

:44:40.:44:45.

Remember that the Lib Dems here were the party that

:44:46.:44:54.

allowed in austerity, they allowed in the bedroom tax

:44:55.:44:57.

they allowed in all sorts of other measures that we absolutely oppose

:44:58.:45:03.

so that would have left voters with a sort of

:45:04.:45:05.

right-wing candidate and a

:45:06.:45:10.

slightly right-of-centre candidate instead of somebody with

:45:11.:45:11.

So, perhaps the big struggle for Zac Goldsmith is that while he is

:45:12.:45:17.

fighting a referendum on Heathrow, on the ground

:45:18.:45:19.

about the whole range of issues from gay marriage, to the

:45:20.:45:31.

bedroom tax, Islamophobia, and of course Brexit.

:45:32.:45:33.

The Lib Dem candidate Sarah Olney is here with us -

:45:34.:45:35.

We asked Zac Goldsmith to take part as well.

:45:36.:45:39.

He couldn't make it but earlier in the week we asked him

:45:40.:45:42.

whether the campaign was going to be just about Heathrow.

:45:43.:45:49.

In most people's eyes it is and that's the response we are getting,

:45:50.:45:52.

People are aware that the only reason this

:45:53.:45:55.

by-election is happening, the only reason, is that I kept my promise

:45:56.:45:58.

and resigned on principle over Heathrow expansion.

:45:59.:46:00.

You said upstairs that you have people of all

:46:01.:46:02.

But the reality is the most high profile

:46:03.:46:05.

people who have come down to support you are Conservatives, people like

:46:06.:46:08.

Theresa Villiers, people like Jacob Rees-Mogg.

:46:09.:46:09.

You are going to have been a man who started this

:46:10.:46:12.

parliament as a Conservative and you're going to go back as the same

:46:13.:46:16.

man basically representing Conservatives and supported by local

:46:17.:46:17.

Well, I haven't had a political transplant, if that's what

:46:18.:46:21.

ago with the same views on issues.

:46:22.:46:27.

What happened is that the local party and local councillors

:46:28.:46:29.

and local association members sent a message

:46:30.:46:31.

to the party saying if you

:46:32.:46:34.

put up a Conservative Party we will continue to back Zac.

:46:35.:46:37.

Logically, that would have meant the entire local

:46:38.:46:39.

party would have had to be expelled had the central office decided to

:46:40.:46:42.

impose somebody and clearly they weren't going to do that.

:46:43.:46:44.

Is there any tangible difference then between

:46:45.:46:46.

Zac Goldsmith the independent MP, and the Zac Goldsmith the

:46:47.:46:48.

In truth I've always been an independent minded MP.

:46:49.:46:51.

If you look at my voting record over the last six years, the party

:46:52.:46:55.

has never been able to take my vote for granted on any issues.

:46:56.:46:58.

So, in a sense, I will continue to be an

:46:59.:47:00.

independent minded MP but without the blue rosette.

:47:01.:47:02.

That means holding government to account, voting in the

:47:03.:47:04.

way that I believe is good for my constituents, aligned with my

:47:05.:47:07.

conscience, good for the country, and if that puts me against my party

:47:08.:47:11.

then I will vote against my party, as I have routinely over the last

:47:12.:47:14.

Final question, the Lib Dems seem to be throwing everything

:47:15.:47:17.

I spoke to Nick Clegg today, I'm talking to Tim

:47:18.:47:21.

Farron tomorrow, they say they have had 1000 activists on the street

:47:22.:47:24.

That has got to have you a bit worried.

:47:25.:47:27.

Most of the people who are campaigning for the

:47:28.:47:29.

Lib Dems are coming from outside of this community.

:47:30.:47:31.

I am yet to see a local campaigner for the Lib Dems.

:47:32.:47:34.

I have no party, no access to the party data, no access

:47:35.:47:39.

to the party machinery or the office.

:47:40.:47:40.

I had to build a campaign from scratch in a matter of hours.

:47:41.:47:45.

So, of course, I'm not going to be able to outcompete them in terms of

:47:46.:47:48.

doorknocking, although we've spoken to many thousands of people ready

:47:49.:47:54.

doorknocking, although we've spoken to many thousands of people already

:47:55.:47:56.

I'm never going to be able to outcompete them in terms

:47:57.:48:00.

They will get ten, 15 times more literature out than we do.

:48:01.:48:04.

But what we have on our side is name recognition.

:48:05.:48:06.

I just wonder about that, if you are honest, is he a popular

:48:07.:48:12.

He's been, he's done good things for the constituency,

:48:13.:48:16.

but as far as name recognition is concerned he is right

:48:17.:48:19.

we are getting a lot of literature out and people are beginning to

:48:20.:48:22.

And what people really feel strongly about is the Brexit issue, they know

:48:23.:48:26.

that the Liberal Democrats are the party that are still standing to

:48:27.:48:30.

remain in the EU and that's what the issue

:48:31.:48:31.

How difficult is it when, as you accept, he

:48:32.:48:35.

is being regarded as a good MP, and let's face it, he extended his

:48:36.:48:39.

majority against the Liberal Democrats by many thousand in 2 15?

:48:40.:48:42.

How difficult is that for you to deal with that

:48:43.:48:45.

when he has to down and given it all upon a matter of principle?

:48:46.:48:48.

Well, we've obviously got, you know, a lot of ground to

:48:49.:48:51.

make up but the evidence so far that we are seeing

:48:52.:48:54.

is we are starting to catch up, so, you know, we have come

:48:55.:48:57.

from the Whitney by-election and if we got the same swing in Richmond

:48:58.:49:00.

Park that we got in Whitney then that would be enough.

:49:01.:49:02.

The responses you are getting on the doorstep?

:49:03.:49:06.

is showing some very positive results.

:49:07.:49:10.

Presumably people are saying it has been a heroically

:49:11.:49:12.

self-sacrificing decision of his to give up his

:49:13.:49:19.

seat on the basis of an issue like Heathrow, are they?

:49:20.:49:21.

Well, not everyone is saying that to be honest.

:49:22.:49:23.

on an anti-Heathrow platform and as

:49:24.:49:27.

Tania mentioned earlier on we also had a referendum in Richmond about

:49:28.:49:29.

whether or not people wanted Heathrow expansion.

:49:30.:49:31.

So he's had mandates before to stand against

:49:32.:49:33.

It's not like he really needs another one.

:49:34.:49:36.

So not everybody is that impressed by his decision to stand down.

:49:37.:49:39.

While the people of Richmond did make clear in

:49:40.:49:42.

the referendum which way they wanted it, and they very much wanted to

:49:43.:49:48.

stay, 70-30 in Europe, they have known Zac Goldsmith's Eurosceptic

:49:49.:49:52.

views for a long time and his parentage, and you can hardly escape

:49:53.:49:55.

that, and yet they voted him in in 2015.

:49:56.:49:58.

We're meeting a lot of people on the doorsteps who didn't

:49:59.:50:02.

know how anti-Europe he was and they are realising now throughout

:50:03.:50:07.

know how anti-Europe he was and they are realising now through our

:50:08.:50:10.

campaign that we are the only party that has really stood and always

:50:11.:50:13.

been the pro-European party and continues

:50:14.:50:14.

government that continues to campaign for us to remain in Europe.

:50:15.:50:18.

That wants to, you know, for us to remain part

:50:19.:50:21.

of the Single Market to

:50:22.:50:22.

save British jobs, to save British businesses.

:50:23.:50:23.

And you would vote against triggering Article 50,

:50:24.:50:25.

You would not start the process if you were elected.

:50:26.:50:36.

On what basis do you think voters are going to say, or

:50:37.:50:39.

vote for you, when you would be willing to defy the will of the

:50:40.:50:42.

Well, firstly, as you've already said, 70%

:50:43.:50:44.

of voters in this constituency were very

:50:45.:50:46.

keen for us to remain in the

:50:47.:50:48.

European Union, but also because that's

:50:49.:50:49.

in this by-election I would be returned to Parliament if I won

:50:50.:50:55.

with a very clear mandate as to how my constituents that I would be

:50:56.:50:59.

Do you accept that actually, well you'll accept from your own post

:51:00.:51:05.

bag, presumably, there are very strong

:51:06.:51:07.

We know what you feel about Heathrow.

:51:08.:51:09.

But would you say and accept there are very

:51:10.:51:12.

strong feelings about that and you voted to stay in?

:51:13.:51:14.

My constituency, just like Zac's, is full of very

:51:15.:51:16.

Yes, I was very disappointed with the national vote.

:51:17.:51:22.

But like many MPs, and I think all parties

:51:23.:51:25.

in Parliament, we did say that we would accept

:51:26.:51:27.

constituents, we now have to make it work.

:51:28.:51:33.

I have been holding the Government to account in my position

:51:34.:51:42.

as MP, and especially with science, and I've

:51:43.:51:45.

also been very strong on

:51:46.:51:47.

protecting EU workers, EU families, as has Zac.

:51:48.:51:49.

I mean at the end of the day, the Lib

:51:50.:51:54.

Dems are the party that want us to remain in Europe, that are

:51:55.:51:57.

campaigning on that, that are uniting on that,

:51:58.:52:00.

and so the voters in Richmond Park can have no doubt

:52:01.:52:03.

about what I will do if an Article 50 vote comes before parliament

:52:04.:52:06.

But I really think equally they can have

:52:07.:52:08.

no doubt what Zac Goldsmith would do.

:52:09.:52:09.

Siobhain, can I just ask you if

:52:10.:52:12.

your candidate, Christian Wolmar, who is very much against Heathrow,

:52:13.:52:14.

but also do you think there

:52:15.:52:18.

agreed, would have liked it if Labour said, let's not put up a

:52:19.:52:24.

candidate, like the Greens haven't, to give the Liberal Democrats are

:52:25.:52:27.

candidate, like the Greens haven't, to give the Liberal Democrats a

:52:28.:52:29.

I think Labour's got a distinctive voice,

:52:30.:52:33.

and I think we should use it

:52:34.:52:35.

I think Christian is a great and a sincere

:52:36.:52:38.

I think Christian is a great and a sincere candidate.

:52:39.:52:41.

unlike myself, against Heathrow for decades.

:52:42.:52:44.

He has very strong views that he would agree with Sarah that

:52:45.:52:47.

he would vote against the moving of Article 50.

:52:48.:52:49.

You think it's important for him to stay in the race?

:52:50.:52:52.

I'm sure the voters of Richmond are very

:52:53.:52:54.

thoughtful and I would like them to think that

:52:55.:52:56.

their side on the issues of concern to them.

:52:57.:53:00.

Very briefly, Tania, because we have to move on.

:53:01.:53:02.

Your candidate has been clear, you say

:53:03.:53:03.

you have been clear, but I have to say I believe

:53:04.:53:06.

Nor have all of those people. Let's not go in there.

:53:07.:53:15.

We are running out of time. We have got to let Sarah go.

:53:16.:53:19.

You said you haven't and you are saying it is OK.

:53:20.:53:24.

14th of October blog, that's where...

:53:25.:53:25.

But the Article 50 judgment wasn't made

:53:26.:53:27.

So how could it have been a view on whether or not

:53:28.:53:31.

You said let's make it work, bring people together.

:53:32.:53:35.

We'll come back to it, I hope. Thanks very much indeed, Sarah.

:53:36.:53:40.

And you can see a full list of all the candidates standing

:53:41.:53:44.

in the Richmond Park by-election on the BBC website.

:53:45.:53:46.

This week, the interim report into the Croydon tram crash revealed

:53:47.:53:49.

that the tram had been travelling at three times the speed limit

:53:50.:53:51.

It could be some months before we get the final report

:53:52.:53:55.

But it's had reverberations in this one part of south London and beyond.

:53:56.:54:00.

This is a stretch of the Croydon tram link that commuters from south

:54:01.:54:06.

London pass through regularly on their way to work, and it is here

:54:07.:54:09.

that seven people died and 51 were injured in the UK's worst tram

:54:10.:54:12.

Politicians this week have been demanding

:54:13.:54:17.

answers to how this tragedy occurred.

:54:18.:54:31.

Can the Prime Minister assure the House and the families

:54:32.:54:33.

that any recommendations to improve safety on trams in Croydon and

:54:34.:54:37.

across the country made by those investigations will be rapidly

:54:38.:54:40.

It is important to allow the investigations to continue.

:54:41.:54:43.

That they are able to come up with the

:54:44.:54:46.

recommendations in due course, and we will look seriously at those

:54:47.:54:48.

We can never be complacent about safety and security.

:54:49.:54:53.

Three separate investigations are under way.

:54:54.:55:02.

On Wednesday, the Rail Accident Investigations Board published its

:55:03.:55:04.

This rules out any technical causes.

:55:05.:55:15.

Questions are now being raised about the effectiveness of current safety

:55:16.:55:17.

The BBC has learned that a complaint had

:55:18.:55:23.

recently been made about a speeding tram at the same bend as the

:55:24.:55:26.

On 31st October, passenger Shantall Singh

:55:27.:55:32.

Only days before the tragedy, tram link

:55:33.:56:00.

Only days before the tragedy, Tramlink

:56:01.:56:01.

With industrial action over safety issues

:56:02.:56:06.

announced by the RMT this week, these events may lend more

:56:07.:56:09.

credibility transport workers' concerns, ensuring the shocks from

:56:10.:56:11.

the accident will reverberate well beyond Croydon.

:56:12.:56:23.

The route the tram goes three constituency. Unions are already

:56:24.:56:28.

saying there are concerns about safety. I have not heard of them

:56:29.:56:34.

personally, but, you know, your heart has got to go out to the

:56:35.:56:37.

people who died and their families. Going to work at six o'clock in the

:56:38.:56:40.

morning, those people get their money hard, don't they? That tram is

:56:41.:56:45.

so important to so many people across south-west London,

:56:46.:56:47.

particularly in Mitch Inman, to give people a chance to get to work,

:56:48.:56:51.

school, college, it has been an amazing thing. At that time because

:56:52.:56:55.

it is a local form of transport that is why most of the victims were from

:56:56.:57:00.

a concentrated area and that is unusual. It is important in our

:57:01.:57:06.

area, I have worked at Croydon hospital. Yes, you say there but for

:57:07.:57:12.

the grace of God. At least they are saying it is safe right now and I

:57:13.:57:16.

believe them, even though as you say the investigation will take a long

:57:17.:57:19.

time. It is reassuring because the tram link is important in the area.

:57:20.:57:24.

It could take a year or seven months to get the full report.

:57:25.:57:29.

Now for the rest of the political news in 60 seconds.

:57:30.:57:32.

Sadiq Khan has definite appointing Amy Lemay as London's nights

:57:33.:57:35.

Sadiq Khan has defended appointing Amy Lemay as London's night

:57:36.:57:56.

Councillor following claim she has a gratuitously offensive online

:57:57.:57:57.

presence. Amy was appointed because she's

:57:58.:57:59.

the best person for the job. It's really important to have

:58:00.:58:02.

someone with outstanding experience at the front line of London's

:58:03.:58:04.

night-time economy in order to gain An investigation has

:58:05.:58:07.

found that NHS chiefs are trying to keep plans

:58:08.:58:11.

to cut hospital services

:58:12.:58:13.

in England secret. The King's Fund report

:58:14.:58:14.

did not include any details of cuts

:58:15.:58:15.

but from the leaks and plans that have been published so far,

:58:16.:58:18.

a partial picture is emerging

:58:19.:58:20.

of what is involved. south-west London to close one

:58:21.:58:22.

of five hospitals - Saint George's, Kingston, Croydon,

:58:23.:58:25.

St Helier or Epsom. Thousands of London Underground

:58:26.:58:27.

staff have voted not to go on strike but will

:58:28.:58:29.

instead refuse to work overtime or rest days

:58:30.:58:31.

in a The RMT union is taking

:58:32.:58:32.

the action, claiming job cuts have made working

:58:33.:58:36.

on the Tube horrific. We have about a minute left.

:58:37.:58:44.

Kingston Hospital, used by your constituents. And St Helier in your

:58:45.:58:48.

constituency. One of those could go. Make the case for yours. I do know

:58:49.:58:53.

about you, I have heard CCG and the Kingston Hospital writes to me

:58:54.:58:57.

saying there are no plans to close any of the five hospitals and also

:58:58.:59:05.

remember the sustainability and transformation plan will have

:59:06.:59:07.

consultation. Do you accept that? If you believe that you will believe

:59:08.:59:10.

anything, I think St Helier is the target. It is not just the target

:59:11.:59:16.

for people in my bit of Mitcham and Morden, it will be a target for

:59:17.:59:18.

everybody because if that hospital is closed all of those people are

:59:19.:59:23.

going somewhere and I suspect it is St George is so sent Georges will be

:59:24.:59:26.

under enormous pressure.. We need that rationalisation, people would

:59:27.:59:31.

say support it? What we need, and what we will scrutinise, is about

:59:32.:59:37.

clinical care closer to home with better clinical networks. That is

:59:38.:59:41.

where the hospitals will come in. But they are not the whole picture

:59:42.:59:46.

anymore. Ten seconds. They think they can get 40% of people who

:59:47.:59:51.

currently turn up to A to get treatment in their community, it has

:59:52.:59:55.

never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we

:59:56.:59:58.

should spend more time on. Back to you.

:59:59.:00:07.

What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?

:00:08.:00:11.

What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy

:00:12.:00:14.

And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in

:00:15.:00:17.

Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been

:00:18.:00:32.

touring the television studios this morning.

:00:33.:00:33.

Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press

:00:34.:00:39.

As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only

:00:40.:00:43.

seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.

:00:44.:00:46.

So a lot of this will be a repeat of what

:00:47.:00:48.

I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on

:00:49.:00:52.

We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might

:00:53.:00:57.

imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow

:00:58.:01:00.

hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.

:01:01.:01:05.

That simply doesn't exist if we're going to

:01:06.:01:08.

retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets

:01:09.:01:11.

if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to

:01:12.:01:15.

We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this

:01:16.:01:28.

morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things

:01:29.:01:36.

like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an

:01:37.:01:42.

infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it

:01:43.:01:46.

was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is

:01:47.:01:55.

the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think

:01:56.:01:59.

there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot

:02:00.:02:03.

set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do

:02:04.:02:08.

is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are

:02:09.:02:17.

-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how

:02:18.:02:25.

they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about

:02:26.:02:29.

the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit

:02:30.:02:33.

until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of

:02:34.:02:44.

Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how

:02:45.:02:47.

Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury

:02:48.:02:50.

comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and

:02:51.:02:55.

collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the

:02:56.:03:02.

economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot

:03:03.:03:08.

say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to

:03:09.:03:12.

take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the

:03:13.:03:16.

Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,

:03:17.:03:20.

and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the

:03:21.:03:25.

Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and

:03:26.:03:30.

spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is

:03:31.:03:34.

a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office

:03:35.:03:39.

for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions

:03:40.:03:43.

there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from

:03:44.:03:51.

Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the

:03:52.:03:54.

referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a

:03:55.:03:58.

way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you

:03:59.:04:05.

were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I

:04:06.:04:12.

say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.

:04:13.:04:16.

I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to

:04:17.:04:25.

build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see

:04:26.:04:34.

them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would

:04:35.:04:39.

suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just

:04:40.:04:43.

managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that

:04:44.:04:51.

simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.

:04:52.:04:58.

These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With

:04:59.:05:02.

income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly

:05:03.:05:06.

expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of

:05:07.:05:10.

that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after

:05:11.:05:17.

pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are

:05:18.:05:23.

people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the

:05:24.:05:29.

number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their

:05:30.:05:33.

pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,

:05:34.:05:38.

and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just

:05:39.:05:43.

managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are

:05:44.:05:52.

talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so

:05:53.:05:58.

the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple

:05:59.:06:02.

of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it

:06:03.:06:06.

will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing

:06:07.:06:13.

people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,

:06:14.:06:22.

because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow

:06:23.:06:29.

Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed

:06:30.:06:34.

in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is

:06:35.:06:37.

about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for

:06:38.:06:41.

governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for

:06:42.:06:45.

labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need

:06:46.:06:50.

a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the

:06:51.:06:54.

deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond

:06:55.:07:00.

did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given

:07:01.:07:03.

himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it

:07:04.:07:09.

will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is

:07:10.:07:14.

the next political earthquake going to happen?

:07:15.:07:21.

It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring

:07:22.:07:27.

Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next

:07:28.:07:30.

year's French Presidential elections?

:07:31.:07:31.

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

:07:32.:07:33.

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

:07:34.:07:35.

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

:07:36.:07:37.

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

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Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.

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Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former

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prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not

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clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting

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race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It

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is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all

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the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated

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by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination

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there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In

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other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration

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and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to

:08:46.:08:49.

appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third

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candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few

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days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on

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television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all

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surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a

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British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the

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first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.

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We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is

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fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right

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party is likely to be the next president, and who the next

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president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit

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negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then

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after the German elections in October. I would add one more

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constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop

:09:51.:09:58.

Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the

:09:59.:10:07.

run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done

:10:08.:10:12.

There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three

:10:13.:10:17.

centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit

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and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it

:10:23.:10:31.

is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of

:10:32.:10:38.

marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out

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of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does

:10:43.:10:45.

not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was

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suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next

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time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the

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most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if

:10:57.:11:04.

you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he

:11:05.:11:07.

goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen

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go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that

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a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have

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to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do

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it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential

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Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on

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the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of

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French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise

:11:53.:11:56.

the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic

:11:57.:12:11.

policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French

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elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate

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are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running

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against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist

:12:30.:12:32.

economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise

:12:33.:12:38.

the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not

:12:39.:12:46.

classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.

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And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an

:12:51.:12:55.

effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the

:12:56.:13:01.

socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We

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will see what they come up with this time.

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The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,

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where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn

:13:17.:13:22.

But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:23.:13:31.

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