20/11/2016 Sunday Politics London

Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving

the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?

Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime

The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending

on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be

Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.

Now the second UKIP leadership election this year

So who can restore order to this fractious party?

in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or

is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?

And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing

the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative

dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott

and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.

First this morning - Theresa May has said

"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -

who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum

Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching

the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet

Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to

deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,

100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to

making a success of Brexit for the country.

We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then

have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity

coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we

face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind

when you talk about negativity the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,

for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving

membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what

we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat

negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and

the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards

both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position

clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to

review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what

you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards

membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure

British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new

trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at

Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house

this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.

And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on

what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union

at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs

union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and

other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are

preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing

carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we

have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do

you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is

not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the

moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we

cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement

with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.

Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We

still want to trade with the EU and I think we can have a free trade

agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do

with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave

the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the

most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime

Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be

right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have

a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a

binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the

Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I

am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had

said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the

constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not

securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,

we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that

if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade

deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do

you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with

substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access

to the single market, that goods going from this country to the

single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject

to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost

business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement

between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,

but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on

our own tariffs once we've left we can't just export again willy-nilly

to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do

that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we

agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,

we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which

sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our

industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU

but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European

Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a %

tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and

goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of

the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.

Every bottle of Japanese whisky they will have to work out the rules

of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for

50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of

free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view

Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could

not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is

messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a

campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is

this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other

side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that

the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only

through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem

to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through

amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to

hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the

Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs

union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in

the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good

faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a

Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,

but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel

has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.

Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since

the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms

of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single

market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and

services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they

can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We

saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they

hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into

a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going

to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask

for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you

want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting

it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is

150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we

have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about

what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.

Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU

also means quitting the

Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free

movement of goods, services, capital and people.

They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting

politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during

Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost

certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.

When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay

"No, we should be outside the Single Market."

And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael

Gove was absolutely right to say the UK

They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before

the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the

Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving

the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,

once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually

And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said

that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some

But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what

To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're

joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave

campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many

were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was

made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12

statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the

referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian

model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went

out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading

arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the

Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade

agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the

12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself

when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The

Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters

They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.

But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should

stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked

about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from

Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would

have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back

to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point

stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.

Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave

movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place

in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave

campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have

highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners

over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments

accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full

thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade

agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.

There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the

clip you used on Owen Paterson first.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

It's not the EU which is

a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.

It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on

I mean, are we really suggesting that the

economy in the world is not going to come to come

to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?

Are we going to be like Sudan and North

It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a

What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that

we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country

in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our

trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David

Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box

recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the

Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of

course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't

think he was about axis, he is talking

about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks

about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap

off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's

the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and

Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,

the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and

tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the

views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.

When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that

it might be initially attractive for some business people.

So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in

the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian

option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive

for some business people. But then again for voters

who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,

they will be very concerned that it allows free movement

of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.

He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real

problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.

But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them

accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what

we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying

the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It

might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free

movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are

saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are

distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.

On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t

run. There is absolutely

nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving

the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part

of the European Economic Area and we should use our

membership of the EEA as a holding position from which

we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export

market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,

if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we

should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA

as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip

is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a

distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a

definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,

for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go

on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he

does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't

let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he

wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would

be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea

now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the

Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all

had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the

full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out

there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave

campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout

the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market

is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the

montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime

Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being

categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave

membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you

understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to

leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other

promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT

cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of

any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan

has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You

spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting

and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen

this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is

perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have

a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.

That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to

stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag

us out of our biggest trading partner.

Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up

their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week

in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest

this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -

stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from

farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,

split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're

having their second Watch as the alpha male,

the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,

the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha

female Diane James. The European Parliament

in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible

future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,

has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague

during a meeting. A few days later he is

out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my

application to become I'm actually withdrawing

myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party

I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document

suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political

campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes

over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,

a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for

disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,

an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side

as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast

in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told

that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,

a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance

to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated

passionate supporters who feel like they're not really

being listened to and are not even Typically what happens

is they just basically sit there until six months before

a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out

and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel

there is not an adequate flow of communication

up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in

any hustings? He left a hustings saying

the contest was an establishment coronation and has

made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty

for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear

will amongst the offences should be dealt with

decisively. But again, on an issue like that,

that is something that Our members are not

going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that

I would have any authority to have the say and determine

the future What method would you use

for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could

be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online

poll about whether you use the electric chair,

or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made

in favour of This is such a small aspect

of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media

they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant

details. This is one vote that

the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do

in this party is to revolutionise the democratic

process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should

be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip

would win at Meanwhile, in New York,

on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage

of the President-elect, a man he has described as

a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some

in this leadership contest. There are also elections

to the party's National Executive Committee, a body

that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two

of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -

Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving

each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be

the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.

Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,

forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it

really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win

seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we

need to attract more women, more ethnic

minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their

party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my

leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical

party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne

Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.

I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and

prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I

am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done

every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,

whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past

six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour

constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of

working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet

are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a

mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to

realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get

together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles

within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and

whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion

polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on

the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a

grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in

the party as well and also a background that I think means I can

help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity

faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.

There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee

going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have

ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I

think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more

open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive

Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to

be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better

communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a

clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,

Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person

who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show

you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with

President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's

decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr

Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.

I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is

President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the

campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,

pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put

the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne

Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I

said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The

better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is

quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr

Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have

that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not

out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is

according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let

me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself

in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country

ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in

2020. The other thing your leader has in

common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do

you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and

Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is

pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle

East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to

bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the

conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American

line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is

affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these

people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial

breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage

unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do

you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I

was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,

and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were

already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth

that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control

immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering

voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it

was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed

to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.

People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip

shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you

different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone

for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from

the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns

with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa

into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,

particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I

want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the

low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national

anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks

anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John

McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for

working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.

It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I

first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic

opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at

me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have

seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death

penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more

money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to

fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our

manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come

from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being

taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the

money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because

that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on

management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,

foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership

fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It

cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are

not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you

get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.

Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25

million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer

than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away

from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?

Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.

Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

Not for the first time we are preoccupied this week

Zac Goldsmith stood down over Heathrow.

He says the by-election he's now caused is about Heathrow.

This is also a chance to give a verdict on Brexit.

We'll have the Liberal Democrat candidate contesting

the Richmond Park and North Kingston by-election here with us

Here already are Siobhain McDonagh, Labour MP for Mitcham and Morden,

and Tania Mathias, Conservative MP for Twickenham,

neighbouring constituency to Richmond Park, of course.

And let's start with the news that four Tory councils have pledged

to launch judicial review proceedings against

the Government unless - within the next fortnight -

it withdraws that decision to build a third runway.

This week London's Mayor also indicated backing of sorts.

I'm now signalling my support for a potential

legal challenge of the

Government decision to build a third runway at Heathrow.

I promised I wouldn't just stand by and see

hundreds of thousands suffer from the additional noise and air

pollution, and I'm ready to help ensure that this misery isn't

Siobhain, we're not quite clear from what he's been saying so far

about how much money he's putting into any

kind of legal challenge, but should he be putting

You're someone who now favours this decision to go ahead, are you?

I fully support Heathrow, and I think

Sadiq is a fabulous mayor but I think he's wrong about this.

I think it's really important for London,

particularly in the face of Brexit, that we have easy access by

aeroplane into London and that choice has got to be Heathrow.

And I would lay down a challenge also I

believe there's probably more people in Zac's constituency and in

Twickenham, I would argue, that support a third runway for the jobs

and the possibility of a good livelihood.

I will let Tania come back on that in a second.

It was not long ago that Sadiq Khan, of course,

supported Labour Party policy and agreed that Heathrow should be

Should any kind of sense of public money, should he continue

Well, I think it's important for the London mayor

to take a position, and

I'm sure he has his reasons for believing what he does.

And I don't doubt his sincerity at all.

But I think the future of London, in my

opinion, is with a third runway at Heathrow.

I would actually say, I

would put another one at Gatwick as well.

Tania Mathias is barely suppressing the smile on your face.

Thank you for letting me come in there.

Sadiq Khan in his mayoral campaign was very clear that he was

As soon as he was elected mayor he sent a

letter that we asked him as MPs who were concerned,

London MPs who were concerned, will you continue to be

He wrote that letter immediately, and I'm

Remember the nitrogen dioxide levels were breached.

The annual levels were breached on the

So for the sake of all Londoners, we are talking about

Greater London, airport expansion is needed

but should not be at Heathrow for environmental reasons.

Just very briefly, what about that contention

Siobhain says that actually if you took

everybody in those seats in

Richmond Park actually we would have a majority that might say now,

let's go ahead with this, we need it?

Under a Conservative council when I was councillor

in Richmond Borough we did a referendum and we got 80%

It was over 100,000, so it's actually one

of the most extensive surveys that we've done.

Everyone imagines it is

slightly self-selecting, that the people who feel strongly want to

Every single survey we've done there would be

20%, but when we talk about the health of Greater London.

Let's move on because we can cover this after we've done...

On that point, it's not the planes that are causing the major

pollution, it's the cars on the way to the airport that cause the

Some of London's greatest pollution is on the Edgeware Road,

on Green Lanes where poorer people frequently die.

Airport expansion in

Heathrow, 800 million would be spent on car parks.

As I said, we are preoccupied with planes and airports

Let's get on to that by-election in south-west London.

It's a contest where the Tories and Ukip are not putting up

a candidate, in order to help the chances of the independent Zac

And the Greens decided not to stand to strengthen

the anti-Goldsmith cause, by trying to avoid splitting

The Liberal Democrats are certainly pumping effort and resources

Could they regain a seat lost in 2010?

The very same day that the government

announced they wanted to

push ahead with the third runway at Heathrow last month, the

Conservative MP for Richmond Park, Zac Goldsmith, resigned his seat in

protest forcing a by-election which he is contesting as an independent.

Now, Zac Goldsmith says that he wants this

to be a referendum on

But the difficulty is that what s on the ballot paper not a

yes/no question about a third runway but a list of candidates and

all his main opponents not only say they're against airport expansion

here but they are also trying to make this vote about much more

This week saw the first and so far only debate between

the candidates organised by the anti-Heathrow group Hacan.

This is our chance as a community to send an

undiluted and clear and forceful message to government and to

Heathrow, no ifs, no buts, no third runway.

On the flyer it said there was one topic for

Europe the happier the Brexit sceptic Lib Dems are going to be.

The party are a lifting their biggest stars in on a daily basis.

so I'm getting very used to Richmond Station.

But it's also the constituency that could potentially

change the direction of British politics and without wanting to

oversell this, potentially change how Britain is over the next 50

The Lib Dems used to hold the seat until 2010 and until the

weekend so they had 1000 activists on the streets campaigning for the

I think the problem for Zac is you can't dictate

You can't sort of say as he has in his great sort of flurry of

melodrama, it's all about me, me, me.

It's actually about who represents this

And while planes do loom large over the skies

of Richmond Park the people we spoke to on the street did seem to be

Zac Goldsmith is the Brexit candidate and it's

When he ran that campaign against Sadiq Khan, all of the way

he kind of went about it, I didn't like

He's been reasonably good for the area.

But this isn't a normal by-election in at least one regard

The Conservatives, Ukip and greens aren't putting up candidates.

Other than the Lib Dems the only major

And they've chosen the transport journalist Christian Wolmar as their

Well, we thought strongly about this and decided that actually

Remember that the Lib Dems here were the party that

allowed in austerity, they allowed in the bedroom tax

they allowed in all sorts of other measures that we absolutely oppose

so that would have left voters with a sort of

right-wing candidate and a

slightly right-of-centre candidate instead of somebody with

So, perhaps the big struggle for Zac Goldsmith is that while he is

fighting a referendum on Heathrow, on the ground

about the whole range of issues from gay marriage, to the

bedroom tax, Islamophobia, and of course Brexit.

The Lib Dem candidate Sarah Olney is here with us -

We asked Zac Goldsmith to take part as well.

He couldn't make it but earlier in the week we asked him

whether the campaign was going to be just about Heathrow.

In most people's eyes it is and that's the response we are getting,

People are aware that the only reason this

by-election is happening, the only reason, is that I kept my promise

and resigned on principle over Heathrow expansion.

You said upstairs that you have people of all

But the reality is the most high profile

people who have come down to support you are Conservatives, people like

Theresa Villiers, people like Jacob Rees-Mogg.

You are going to have been a man who started this

parliament as a Conservative and you're going to go back as the same

man basically representing Conservatives and supported by local

Well, I haven't had a political transplant, if that's what

ago with the same views on issues.

What happened is that the local party and local councillors

and local association members sent a message

to the party saying if you

put up a Conservative Party we will continue to back Zac.

Logically, that would have meant the entire local

party would have had to be expelled had the central office decided to

impose somebody and clearly they weren't going to do that.

Is there any tangible difference then between

Zac Goldsmith the independent MP, and the Zac Goldsmith the

In truth I've always been an independent minded MP.

If you look at my voting record over the last six years, the party

has never been able to take my vote for granted on any issues.

So, in a sense, I will continue to be an

independent minded MP but without the blue rosette.

That means holding government to account, voting in the

way that I believe is good for my constituents, aligned with my

conscience, good for the country, and if that puts me against my party

then I will vote against my party, as I have routinely over the last

Final question, the Lib Dems seem to be throwing everything

I spoke to Nick Clegg today, I'm talking to Tim

Farron tomorrow, they say they have had 1000 activists on the street

That has got to have you a bit worried.

Most of the people who are campaigning for the

Lib Dems are coming from outside of this community.

I am yet to see a local campaigner for the Lib Dems.

I have no party, no access to the party data, no access

to the party machinery or the office.

I had to build a campaign from scratch in a matter of hours.

So, of course, I'm not going to be able to outcompete them in terms of

doorknocking, although we've spoken to many thousands of people ready

doorknocking, although we've spoken to many thousands of people already

I'm never going to be able to outcompete them in terms

They will get ten, 15 times more literature out than we do.

But what we have on our side is name recognition.

I just wonder about that, if you are honest, is he a popular

He's been, he's done good things for the constituency,

but as far as name recognition is concerned he is right

we are getting a lot of literature out and people are beginning to

And what people really feel strongly about is the Brexit issue, they know

that the Liberal Democrats are the party that are still standing to

remain in the EU and that's what the issue

How difficult is it when, as you accept, he

is being regarded as a good MP, and let's face it, he extended his

majority against the Liberal Democrats by many thousand in 2 15?

How difficult is that for you to deal with that

when he has to down and given it all upon a matter of principle?

Well, we've obviously got, you know, a lot of ground to

make up but the evidence so far that we are seeing

is we are starting to catch up, so, you know, we have come

from the Whitney by-election and if we got the same swing in Richmond

Park that we got in Whitney then that would be enough.

The responses you are getting on the doorstep?

is showing some very positive results.

Presumably people are saying it has been a heroically

self-sacrificing decision of his to give up his

seat on the basis of an issue like Heathrow, are they?

Well, not everyone is saying that to be honest.

on an anti-Heathrow platform and as

Tania mentioned earlier on we also had a referendum in Richmond about

whether or not people wanted Heathrow expansion.

So he's had mandates before to stand against

It's not like he really needs another one.

So not everybody is that impressed by his decision to stand down.

While the people of Richmond did make clear in

the referendum which way they wanted it, and they very much wanted to

stay, 70-30 in Europe, they have known Zac Goldsmith's Eurosceptic

views for a long time and his parentage, and you can hardly escape

that, and yet they voted him in in 2015.

We're meeting a lot of people on the doorsteps who didn't

know how anti-Europe he was and they are realising now throughout

know how anti-Europe he was and they are realising now through our

campaign that we are the only party that has really stood and always

been the pro-European party and continues

government that continues to campaign for us to remain in Europe.

That wants to, you know, for us to remain part

of the Single Market to

save British jobs, to save British businesses.

And you would vote against triggering Article 50,

You would not start the process if you were elected.

On what basis do you think voters are going to say, or

vote for you, when you would be willing to defy the will of the

Well, firstly, as you've already said, 70%

of voters in this constituency were very

keen for us to remain in the

European Union, but also because that's

in this by-election I would be returned to Parliament if I won

with a very clear mandate as to how my constituents that I would be

Do you accept that actually, well you'll accept from your own post

bag, presumably, there are very strong

We know what you feel about Heathrow.

But would you say and accept there are very

strong feelings about that and you voted to stay in?

My constituency, just like Zac's, is full of very

Yes, I was very disappointed with the national vote.

But like many MPs, and I think all parties

in Parliament, we did say that we would accept

constituents, we now have to make it work.

I have been holding the Government to account in my position

as MP, and especially with science, and I've

also been very strong on

protecting EU workers, EU families, as has Zac.

I mean at the end of the day, the Lib

Dems are the party that want us to remain in Europe, that are

campaigning on that, that are uniting on that,

and so the voters in Richmond Park can have no doubt

about what I will do if an Article 50 vote comes before parliament

But I really think equally they can have

no doubt what Zac Goldsmith would do.

Siobhain, can I just ask you if

your candidate, Christian Wolmar, who is very much against Heathrow,

but also do you think there

agreed, would have liked it if Labour said, let's not put up a

candidate, like the Greens haven't, to give the Liberal Democrats are

candidate, like the Greens haven't, to give the Liberal Democrats a

I think Labour's got a distinctive voice,

and I think we should use it

I think Christian is a great and a sincere

I think Christian is a great and a sincere candidate.

unlike myself, against Heathrow for decades.

He has very strong views that he would agree with Sarah that

he would vote against the moving of Article 50.

You think it's important for him to stay in the race?

I'm sure the voters of Richmond are very

thoughtful and I would like them to think that

their side on the issues of concern to them.

Very briefly, Tania, because we have to move on.

Your candidate has been clear, you say

you have been clear, but I have to say I believe

Nor have all of those people. Let's not go in there.

We are running out of time. We have got to let Sarah go.

You said you haven't and you are saying it is OK.

14th of October blog, that's where...

But the Article 50 judgment wasn't made

So how could it have been a view on whether or not

You said let's make it work, bring people together.

We'll come back to it, I hope. Thanks very much indeed, Sarah.

And you can see a full list of all the candidates standing

in the Richmond Park by-election on the BBC website.

This week, the interim report into the Croydon tram crash revealed

that the tram had been travelling at three times the speed limit

It could be some months before we get the final report

But it's had reverberations in this one part of south London and beyond.

This is a stretch of the Croydon tram link that commuters from south

London pass through regularly on their way to work, and it is here

that seven people died and 51 were injured in the UK's worst tram

Politicians this week have been demanding

answers to how this tragedy occurred.

Can the Prime Minister assure the House and the families

that any recommendations to improve safety on trams in Croydon and

across the country made by those investigations will be rapidly

It is important to allow the investigations to continue.

That they are able to come up with the

recommendations in due course, and we will look seriously at those

We can never be complacent about safety and security.

Three separate investigations are under way.

On Wednesday, the Rail Accident Investigations Board published its

This rules out any technical causes.

Questions are now being raised about the effectiveness of current safety

The BBC has learned that a complaint had

recently been made about a speeding tram at the same bend as the

On 31st October, passenger Shantall Singh

Only days before the tragedy, tram link

Only days before the tragedy, Tramlink

With industrial action over safety issues

announced by the RMT this week, these events may lend more

credibility transport workers' concerns, ensuring the shocks from

the accident will reverberate well beyond Croydon.

The route the tram goes three constituency. Unions are already

saying there are concerns about safety. I have not heard of them

personally, but, you know, your heart has got to go out to the

people who died and their families. Going to work at six o'clock in the

morning, those people get their money hard, don't they? That tram is

so important to so many people across south-west London,

particularly in Mitch Inman, to give people a chance to get to work,

school, college, it has been an amazing thing. At that time because

it is a local form of transport that is why most of the victims were from

a concentrated area and that is unusual. It is important in our

area, I have worked at Croydon hospital. Yes, you say there but for

the grace of God. At least they are saying it is safe right now and I

believe them, even though as you say the investigation will take a long

time. It is reassuring because the tram link is important in the area.

It could take a year or seven months to get the full report.

Now for the rest of the political news in 60 seconds.

Sadiq Khan has definite appointing Amy Lemay as London's nights

Sadiq Khan has defended appointing Amy Lemay as London's night

Councillor following claim she has a gratuitously offensive online

presence. Amy was appointed because she's

the best person for the job. It's really important to have

someone with outstanding experience at the front line of London's

night-time economy in order to gain An investigation has

found that NHS chiefs are trying to keep plans

to cut hospital services

in England secret. The King's Fund report

did not include any details of cuts

but from the leaks and plans that have been published so far,

a partial picture is emerging

of what is involved. south-west London to close one

of five hospitals - Saint George's, Kingston, Croydon,

St Helier or Epsom. Thousands of London Underground

staff have voted not to go on strike but will

instead refuse to work overtime or rest days

in a The RMT union is taking

the action, claiming job cuts have made working

on the Tube horrific. We have about a minute left.

Kingston Hospital, used by your constituents. And St Helier in your

constituency. One of those could go. Make the case for yours. I do know

about you, I have heard CCG and the Kingston Hospital writes to me

saying there are no plans to close any of the five hospitals and also

remember the sustainability and transformation plan will have

consultation. Do you accept that? If you believe that you will believe

anything, I think St Helier is the target. It is not just the target

for people in my bit of Mitcham and Morden, it will be a target for

everybody because if that hospital is closed all of those people are

going somewhere and I suspect it is St George is so sent Georges will be

under enormous pressure.. We need that rationalisation, people would

say support it? What we need, and what we will scrutinise, is about

clinical care closer to home with better clinical networks. That is

where the hospitals will come in. But they are not the whole picture

anymore. Ten seconds. They think they can get 40% of people who

currently turn up to A to get treatment in their community, it has

never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we

should spend more time on. Back to you.

What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?

What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy

And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in

Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been

touring the television studios this morning.

Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press

As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only

seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.

So a lot of this will be a repeat of what

I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on

We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might

imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow

hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.

That simply doesn't exist if we're going to

retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets

if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to

We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this

morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things

like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an

infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it

was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is

the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think

there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot

set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do

is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are

-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how

they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about

the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit

until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of

Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how

Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury

comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and

collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the

economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot

say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to

take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the

Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,

and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the

Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and

spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is

a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office

for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions

there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from

Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the

referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a

way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you

were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I

say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.

I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to

build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see

them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would

suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just

managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that

simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.

These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With

income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly

expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of

that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after

pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are

people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the

number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their

pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,

and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just

managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are

talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so

the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple

of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it

will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing

people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,

because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow

Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed

in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is

about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for

governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for

labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need

a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the

deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond

did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given

himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it

will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is

the next political earthquake going to happen?

It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring

Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next

year's French Presidential elections?

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.

Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former

prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not

clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting

race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It

is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all

the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated

by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination

there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In

other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration

and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to

appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third

candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few

days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on

television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all

surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a

British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the

first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.

We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is

fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right

party is likely to be the next president, and who the next

president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit

negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then

after the German elections in October. I would add one more

constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop

Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the

run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done

There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three

centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit

and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it

is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of

marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out

of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does

not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was

suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next

time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the

most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if

you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he

goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen

go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that

a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have

to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do

it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential

Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on

the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of

French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise

the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic

policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French

elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate

are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running

against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist

economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise

the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not

classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.

And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an

effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the

socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We

will see what they come up with this time.

The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,

where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn

But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.