15/01/2017 Sunday Politics London


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15/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron, Seema Malbotra, Max Mosley and Piers Morgan.


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:39.

Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

:00:40.:00:42.

of the EU's single market and its customs union?

:00:43.:00:45.

We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:46.:00:48.

Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:49.:00:56.

As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:57.:00:58.

of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:00:59.:01:03.

Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:04.:01:08.

Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.

:01:09.:01:14.

In London this week: With the rail and Tube strikes bringing

:01:15.:01:16.

the capital to a standstill, can a political solution be found

:01:17.:01:19.

And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

:01:20.:01:33.

hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

:01:34.:01:36.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

:01:37.:01:44.

So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

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in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

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and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

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Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

:01:59.:02:01.

The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

:02:02.:02:04.

gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

:02:05.:02:08.

will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

:02:09.:02:10.

of the single market and customs union.

:02:11.:02:15.

The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

:02:16.:02:18.

they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

:02:19.:02:21.

The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

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hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

:02:25.:02:28.

And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

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explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

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and call for an end to free movement.

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Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

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I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

:02:48.:02:52.

most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

:02:53.:02:56.

But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

:02:57.:03:02.

that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

:03:03.:03:06.

the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

:03:07.:03:10.

the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:11.:03:13.

basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

:03:14.:03:18.

with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

:03:19.:03:22.

stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:23.:03:26.

British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:27.:03:29.

ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:30.:03:34.

upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:35.:03:38.

position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

:03:39.:03:41.

and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

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it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

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the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

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believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

:03:56.:04:00.

resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

:04:01.:04:04.

Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:05.:04:08.

negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

:04:09.:04:12.

really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

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fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

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whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

:04:23.:04:26.

the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

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Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

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final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

:04:34.:04:38.

Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

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Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

:04:46.:04:48.

a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

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introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

:04:52.:04:56.

It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

:04:57.:04:59.

servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

:05:00.:05:03.

deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

:05:04.:05:07.

the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:08.:05:14.

Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

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You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

:05:17.:05:19.

jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

:05:20.:05:22.

of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

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it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

:05:29.:05:33.

good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

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that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

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nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

:05:40.:05:42.

best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

:05:43.:05:47.

that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

:05:48.:05:51.

union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

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package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

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better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

:05:59.:06:02.

travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

:06:03.:06:06.

Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

:06:07.:06:11.

and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

:06:12.:06:13.

the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

:06:14.:06:17.

believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

:06:18.:06:22.

for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:23.:06:28.

ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

:06:29.:06:31.

continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:32.:06:36.

what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

:06:37.:06:40.

Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

:06:41.:06:45.

membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:46.:06:47.

amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

:06:48.:06:53.

believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

:06:54.:06:57.

I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:06:58.:07:01.

people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

:07:02.:07:05.

individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

:07:06.:07:09.

your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

:07:10.:07:14.

freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

:07:15.:07:19.

Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

:07:20.:07:24.

don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

:07:25.:07:27.

without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

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depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:33.:07:35.

white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

:07:36.:07:41.

flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

:07:42.:07:43.

corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

:07:44.:07:47.

that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

:07:48.:07:53.

members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:54.:07:59.

of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

:08:00.:08:03.

many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

:08:04.:08:07.

you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

:08:08.:08:10.

aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

:08:11.:08:13.

that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

:08:14.:08:17.

very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:18.:08:21.

in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

:08:22.:08:25.

answer to my question, you haven't answered it

:08:26.:08:31.

the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:32.:08:36.

deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

:08:37.:08:41.

right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

:08:42.:08:46.

you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

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afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

:08:50.:08:53.

The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

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Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

:09:00.:09:06.

the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:07.:09:10.

of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:11.:09:14.

only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

:09:15.:09:17.

for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:18.:09:24.

that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

:09:25.:09:28.

migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:29.:09:31.

that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:32.:09:34.

is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:35.:09:38.

customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

:09:39.:09:41.

clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

:09:42.:09:45.

don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

:09:46.:09:48.

definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

:09:49.:09:56.

is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

:09:57.:09:59.

somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

:10:00.:10:01.

hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

:10:02.:10:06.

option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:07.:10:09.

personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

:10:10.:10:13.

We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

:10:14.:10:21.

on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

:10:22.:10:25.

reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

:10:26.:10:29.

possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

:10:30.:10:32.

David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

:10:33.:10:37.

Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

:10:38.:10:41.

are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

:10:42.:10:46.

rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

:10:47.:10:52.

arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:53.:10:56.

encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:10:57.:11:00.

deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:11:01.:11:03.

service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:04.:11:07.

this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

:11:08.:11:11.

you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

:11:12.:11:14.

years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:15.:11:20.

to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

:11:21.:11:23.

would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:24.:11:29.

What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:30.:11:34.

of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:35.:11:37.

machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:38.:11:43.

pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:44.:11:47.

you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:48.:11:51.

Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:52.:11:57.

European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:11:58.:12:02.

of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:12:03.:12:05.

these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:06.:12:09.

intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:10.:12:12.

what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:13.:12:17.

Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:18.:12:21.

markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:22.:12:24.

doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:25.:12:28.

it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

:12:29.:12:32.

Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

:12:33.:12:34.

week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

:12:35.:12:36.

enact a controversial piece of legislation.

:12:37.:12:38.

Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

:12:39.:12:40.

could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:41.:12:43.

If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:44.:12:53.

The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

:12:54.:12:56.

while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:57.:12:58.

a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:59.:13:00.

Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:13:01.:13:05.

It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

:13:06.:13:09.

a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:10.:13:15.

They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:16.:13:17.

It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:18.:13:20.

a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:21.:13:30.

and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:31.:13:33.

which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:34.:13:35.

If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

:13:36.:13:37.

that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

:13:38.:13:39.

like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:40.:13:41.

To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

:13:42.:13:47.

the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

:13:48.:13:51.

publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

:13:52.:13:54.

costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

:13:55.:13:58.

It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

:13:59.:14:01.

We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

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This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:06.:14:08.

of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

:14:09.:14:14.

from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:15.:14:17.

It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:18.:14:22.

I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

:14:23.:14:28.

you have an incomplete Leveson project.

:14:29.:14:29.

I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:30.:14:33.

there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:34.:14:35.

standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

:14:36.:14:37.

"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:38.:14:40.

Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:41.:14:43.

We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:44.:14:51.

for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:52.:14:54.

They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:55.:14:56.

from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:57.:14:58.

a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:14:59.:15:08.

Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:09.:15:10.

Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:11.:15:15.

the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:16.:15:18.

doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:19.:15:24.

The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:25.:15:27.

There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:28.:15:30.

won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:31.:15:32.

are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:33.:15:37.

Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:38.:15:39.

through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:40.:15:41.

Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:42.:15:43.

when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:44.:15:46.

If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:47.:15:54.

we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:55.:15:59.

The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:16:00.:16:01.

since the Government launched its consultation

:16:02.:16:03.

In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

:16:04.:16:06.

And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:07.:16:10.

a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:11.:16:14.

The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:15.:16:17.

One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:18.:16:23.

So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:24.:16:25.

I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:26.:16:34.

What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:35.:16:38.

on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:39.:16:42.

was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:43.:16:45.

regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:46.:16:49.

which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:50.:16:54.

then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:55.:16:57.

case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:58.:16:59.

The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:17:00.:17:05.

I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:06.:17:07.

about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:08.:17:11.

to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:12.:17:14.

But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:15.:17:17.

I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:18.:17:28.

Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:29.:17:30.

and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:31.:17:34.

Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:35.:17:43.

that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:44.:17:47.

press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:48.:17:52.

we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:53.:17:57.

into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:58.:18:01.

absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:18:02.:18:06.

like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:07.:18:11.

hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:12.:18:12.

means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:13.:18:39.

many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:40.:18:41.

does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:42.:18:44.

You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:45.:18:47.

People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:48.:18:49.

from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:50.:18:53.

but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:54.:18:56.

money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:18:57.:19:02.

from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:03.:19:06.

the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:07.:19:11.

because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:12.:19:14.

most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:15.:19:25.

the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:26.:19:29.

influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:30.:19:36.

lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:37.:19:40.

historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:41.:19:49.

family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:50.:19:53.

control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:54.:19:59.

the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:20:00.:20:03.

completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:04.:20:08.

wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:09.:20:12.

because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:13.:20:18.

curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:19.:20:23.

press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:24.:20:29.

Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:30.:20:33.

is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:34.:20:41.

tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:42.:20:46.

advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:47.:20:52.

Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:53.:20:58.

be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:59.:21:02.

press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:21:03.:21:05.

reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:06.:21:10.

selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:11.:21:12.

absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:13.:21:17.

Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:18.:21:22.

remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:23.:21:28.

He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:29.:21:34.

the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:35.:21:43.

do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:44.:21:59.

code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:22:00.:22:05.

be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:06.:22:09.

against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:10.:22:15.

wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:16.:22:20.

I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:21.:22:31.

wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:32.:22:39.

Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:40.:22:43.

people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:44.:22:48.

but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:49.:22:54.

have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:55.:22:57.

about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:22:58.:23:04.

possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:05.:23:10.

asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:11.:23:15.

the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:16.:23:21.

some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:22.:23:27.

the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:28.:23:31.

newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:32.:23:37.

enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:38.:23:42.

their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:43.:23:48.

they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:49.:23:58.

won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:23:59.:24:07.

fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:08.:24:11.

relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:12.:24:16.

The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:17.:24:20.

against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:21.:24:25.

understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:26.:24:30.

boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:31.:24:37.

Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:38.:24:46.

Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:47.:24:56.

would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:57.:25:00.

compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:25:01.:25:06.

papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:07.:25:10.

they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:11.:25:17.

regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:18.:25:21.

own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:22.:25:26.

one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:27.:25:30.

expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:31.:25:34.

the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:35.:25:38.

either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:39.:25:44.

approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:45.:25:55.

independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:25:56.:26:04.

a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:05.:26:08.

Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:09.:26:12.

to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:13.:26:16.

have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:17.:26:19.

expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:20.:26:24.

which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:25.:26:29.

up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:30.:26:32.

potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:33.:26:41.

the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:42.:26:46.

the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:47.:26:53.

it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:54.:26:56.

journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:57.:27:01.

scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:02.:27:05.

that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:06.:27:12.

equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:13.:27:16.

judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:17.:27:21.

saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:22.:27:26.

should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:27.:27:32.

is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:33.:27:36.

what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:37.:27:43.

something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:44.:27:47.

happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:48.:27:50.

circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:51.:27:54.

that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:55.:27:58.

because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:27:59.:28:03.

That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:04.:28:08.

newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:09.:28:14.

Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:15.:28:20.

outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:21.:28:23.

bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:24.:28:28.

the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:29.:28:36.

guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:37.:28:41.

The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:42.:28:45.

somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:46.:28:50.

can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:51.:28:53.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:54.:28:55.

has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:56.:28:57.

The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:58.:29:01.

open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:29:02.:29:04.

The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:05.:29:07.

It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:08.:29:10.

had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:11.:29:12.

At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:13.:29:19.

or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:20.:29:21.

On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:22.:29:26.

that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:27.:29:29.

But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:30.:29:37.

He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:38.:29:40.

On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:41.:29:44.

to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:45.:29:47.

paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:48.:29:52.

On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:53.:29:56.

told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:57.:30:01.

And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:02.:30:05.

The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:06.:30:09.

was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:10.:30:14.

And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:15.:30:17.

46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:18.:30:23.

Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:24.:30:28.

opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:29.:30:31.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:32.:30:38.

MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:39.:30:41.

life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:42.:30:44.

Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:45.:30:54.

saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:55.:30:59.

enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:31:00.:31:02.

think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:03.:31:05.

have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:06.:31:10.

still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:11.:31:14.

GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:15.:31:19.

an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:20.:31:24.

is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:25.:31:28.

cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:29.:31:32.

wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:33.:31:35.

forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:36.:31:39.

to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:40.:31:48.

A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:49.:31:51.

play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:52.:31:54.

patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:55.:31:57.

by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:58.:32:01.

hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:02.:32:05.

Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:06.:32:10.

shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:11.:32:16.

or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:17.:32:19.

physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:20.:32:26.

most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:27.:32:30.

don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:31.:32:34.

working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:35.:32:38.

profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:39.:32:43.

Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:44.:32:50.

half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:51.:32:54.

of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:55.:32:58.

working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:32:59.:33:02.

not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:03.:33:06.

working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:07.:33:10.

if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:11.:33:13.

the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:14.:33:20.

out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:21.:33:23.

runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:24.:33:26.

contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:27.:33:31.

tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:32.:33:35.

the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:36.:33:38.

this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:39.:33:42.

practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:43.:33:47.

there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:48.:33:52.

are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:53.:33:55.

offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:56.:33:59.

they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:34:00.:34:04.

saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:05.:34:07.

one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:08.:34:12.

keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:13.:34:16.

should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:17.:34:19.

their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:20.:34:26.

upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:27.:34:30.

highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:31.:34:35.

the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:36.:34:40.

don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:41.:34:44.

enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:45.:34:49.

practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:50.:34:53.

advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:54.:34:58.

need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:34:59.:35:03.

short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:04.:35:06.

associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:07.:35:10.

practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:11.:35:13.

junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:14.:35:18.

this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:19.:35:21.

system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:22.:35:28.

1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:29.:35:33.

with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:34.:35:37.

when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:38.:35:41.

that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:42.:35:45.

where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:46.:35:49.

saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:50.:35:53.

services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:54.:35:56.

follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:57.:36:01.

it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:36:02.:36:04.

station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:05.:36:08.

it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:09.:36:15.

recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:16.:36:18.

haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:19.:36:21.

them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:22.:36:25.

professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:26.:36:28.

what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:29.:36:32.

you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:33.:36:37.

the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:38.:36:41.

patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:42.:36:44.

lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:45.:36:49.

necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:50.:36:54.

up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:55.:36:57.

things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:58.:37:00.

doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:37:01.:37:04.

empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:05.:37:08.

We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:09.:37:12.

our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:13.:37:16.

general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:17.:37:21.

wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:22.:37:24.

lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:25.:37:29.

We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:30.:37:31.

subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:32.:37:34.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:35.:37:36.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:37.:37:39.

minutes: The Week Ahead. First though, the Sunday

:37:40.:37:42.

Politics where you are. Coming up a little later -

:37:43.:37:50.

a review into ticket office closures was one example -

:37:51.:37:57.

Sadiq Khan likes to A careful approach,

:37:58.:37:59.

based on evidence. Here with me, Bob Neill,

:38:00.:38:02.

Conservative MP for Bromley and Chislehurst, and Seema Malhotra,

:38:03.:38:07.

Labour MP for Feltham and Heston. The issue around their closure

:38:08.:38:13.

by the last mayor Boris Johnson is rumbling on and causing trouble

:38:14.:38:20.

in Sadiq Khan's mayoralty. He doesn't want to re-open them,

:38:21.:38:23.

but accepts the need to put more That's not prevented a one-day

:38:24.:38:26.

Tube strike this week, and there's the threat from the RMT

:38:27.:38:30.

of more action next month. What with the three days of strike

:38:31.:38:35.

action on Southern Rail, well, there's a bit of turmoil

:38:36.:38:37.

on the trains just now. I asked the Labour leader

:38:38.:38:40.

Jeremy Corbyn this... The Mayor of London has put 200 more

:38:41.:38:42.

staff back into stations. And I do think there is a need

:38:43.:38:45.

to have a ticket office, particularly in the big

:38:46.:38:59.

interchange stations, And that surely is something that

:39:00.:39:01.

can be discussed and negotiated. So you are saying that the Mayor

:39:02.:39:10.

should improve his offer I'm saying there has

:39:11.:39:14.

to be an agreement. We've put a lot of money

:39:15.:39:17.

into the tube system, that's good. Sadiq has managed to bring forward

:39:18.:39:21.

the 24-hour running, good. We are going to have a better

:39:22.:39:23.

Tube service in London, but I do think there is a point,

:39:24.:39:27.

and the public are telling me this, as a London MP, that they would

:39:28.:39:30.

like to see ticket offices. So you would like him to look

:39:31.:39:33.

at that and review it? I would ask him to look

:39:34.:39:36.

at it, yes, of course. Seema, the Mayor condemned

:39:37.:39:44.

the strikes, or this strike, And the reason is that I think

:39:45.:39:47.

there is common ground, and a very important area of common

:39:48.:39:55.

ground on the issue of safety on the Underground

:39:56.:39:57.

and how we manage that. What I see in Sadiq is a man

:39:58.:40:00.

who is determined to make a difference in London,

:40:01.:40:03.

and very serious about his commitment that there

:40:04.:40:05.

should be no strikes. But in doing that,

:40:06.:40:07.

you have to be clear that you are a politician

:40:08.:40:09.

that recognises and is on the same page

:40:10.:40:10.

on those issues. In my view, it's right that Sadiq

:40:11.:40:13.

commissioned the review that he did. It has led to an admission as well

:40:14.:40:16.

by London Underground that And we absolutely have to see more

:40:17.:40:19.

staff in our stations. What I want to see is really

:40:20.:40:26.

constructive dialogue. I believe that the unions

:40:27.:40:28.

have genuine concerns. We want the right answer

:40:29.:40:30.

for Londoners, though. Londoners don't want the strikes,

:40:31.:40:32.

they don't want the disruption. It's detrimental for

:40:33.:40:35.

businesses and individuals. What we want is a solution, we want

:40:36.:40:36.

to see people around the table. Sadiq Khan says there is no need

:40:37.:40:40.

to reopen, he shouldn't reopen And the independent review

:40:41.:40:42.

did not recommended it. Do you agree with that,

:40:43.:40:49.

then, that we should not Well, I want to see this be part

:40:50.:40:51.

of the ongoing discussion. Part of what came out

:40:52.:40:55.

from the travel watch report is that there should be a task force

:40:56.:41:00.

around how the staff are deployed. Whether there are specific

:41:01.:41:03.

circumstances and specific stations And to have that discussion,

:41:04.:41:05.

I think, is one that can be had People want to see that

:41:06.:41:11.

there is a negotiation. And I believe that that is something

:41:12.:41:16.

that with the leadership that we have, political leadership

:41:17.:41:22.

in Sadiq, and the intent that we solve this problem

:41:23.:41:29.

for Londoners and travellers, I think this is what we need to do -

:41:30.:41:33.

have the negotiation and make sure Do you accept that Sadiq Khan

:41:34.:41:37.

appears to be trying his hardest? He is condemning the strike and has

:41:38.:41:41.

condemned the unions. Do you hold him responsible

:41:42.:41:43.

for this strike this week? I think he could persuade his leader

:41:44.:41:51.

to have the guts to condemn this strike and persuade fellow Londoners

:41:52.:41:55.

like Seema to speak out and say, this is a political strike, it is

:41:56.:42:00.

not about safety. The travel watch review has indicated this is

:42:01.:42:04.

perfectly safe. There are more jobs being put in. This is old-fashioned,

:42:05.:42:08.

hard left militant trade union muscle, and Londoners are suffering.

:42:09.:42:13.

Any London MP with any decency and guts should speak out. Where you

:42:14.:42:18.

entirely happy with the ticket office is being removed? And have

:42:19.:42:21.

you had no concerns expressed EU? I go you have a cheap station, have

:42:22.:42:35.

you had no concerns raised to you about how to get around safety in

:42:36.:42:37.

tube stations -- you have a tube station. It seems to me that the

:42:38.:42:40.

travel watch report picked up the issues sensibly. The idea of

:42:41.:42:42.

changing the way the ticket office operated went back to Ken

:42:43.:42:46.

Livingstone's timers -- time as mayor. All of the work has been done

:42:47.:42:51.

on this. This is a case of the unions flexing their muscles on

:42:52.:42:55.

holding passengers to ransom. Unfortunately, the national

:42:56.:42:57.

leadership of the Labour Party will not speak out against it. The

:42:58.:43:02.

outcome of that is that journey Corbyn does not condemn in

:43:03.:43:05.

forthright terms of the strike that happened on Monday. Should he have

:43:06.:43:09.

done? I believe that striking is not the way forward on this issue. That

:43:10.:43:13.

is because there is genuine, Brown. It is a different situation to

:43:14.:43:18.

Southern Rail. -- there is genuine common ground. Would you expect him

:43:19.:43:22.

to say that like you have just said it? My view is this, very clearly,

:43:23.:43:26.

the issue with safety is the one that we have got to focus on. This

:43:27.:43:30.

is not about, you know, solely to get offices or not, this is about

:43:31.:43:35.

safety of people like you or me. I travel on my own late at night...

:43:36.:43:39.

Are you saying that a leader does not understand that? He thinks Sadiq

:43:40.:43:43.

Khan should reopen some of these ticket offices, whatever travel

:43:44.:43:47.

watch says, he has looked at it, he has people raising this with him, do

:43:48.:43:53.

you not think, was he right to say that and go against what the mayor

:43:54.:43:57.

says? Siddique was elected as the Mayor of London and he has to be

:43:58.:44:00.

accountable for these issues -- Sadiq Khan. The white should he

:44:01.:44:04.

ignored me Corbyn on this one? I don't think that is the issue here.

:44:05.:44:09.

I think the issue is, can we make sure a negotiation happens on the

:44:10.:44:14.

issues? I, like other Londoners, want to see us tackle this issue of

:44:15.:44:18.

safety for women and young people and everybody, we have got 24-hour

:44:19.:44:21.

is underground now, we should be making sure that these issues are

:44:22.:44:25.

addressed. Bob, you're not going to disagree with that. The report which

:44:26.:44:29.

you have supported and said was the right thing to do, of course, also

:44:30.:44:33.

said that the closure under the previous Conservative man was not

:44:34.:44:36.

done efficiently and well and not done giving confidence the

:44:37.:44:38.

passengers, would you accept that? The evidence suggests the issue

:44:39.:44:47.

around things like reassurance to the public when we have 24-hour tube

:44:48.:44:51.

is not best done by having someone locked away in a ticket office, is

:44:52.:44:56.

by having greater visibility and I suspect any Conservative mayor would

:44:57.:45:01.

adopt that approach too. So why aren't we being pragmatic about

:45:02.:45:02.

this? Let's move on. As we've been saying,

:45:03.:45:07.

the Mayor asked the passenger watchdog Travelwatch to do a review,

:45:08.:45:09.

before opting not to It's been just one of a number

:45:10.:45:12.

of reviews the Labour mayor has ordered in his first few months

:45:13.:45:16.

at City Hall. The Conservatives suggest

:45:17.:45:18.

it's a sign of weakness Horrible. We were here at half past

:45:19.:45:37.

five. I don't support it, it's ridiculous. The industrial action

:45:38.:45:40.

this week was over a dispute about closing ticket offices, something

:45:41.:45:43.

Sadiq Khan had hoped he could resolve by holding an official

:45:44.:45:47.

review of the policy. In the end though it wasn't enough to convince

:45:48.:45:54.

the trade unions to call it off. I asked the Independent Travelwatch to

:45:55.:45:57.

undertake a review around ticket office closures, their report back

:45:58.:46:10.

-- came back in December. The TSSA union said they based their decision

:46:11.:46:15.

not on the review but what members were telling them. Our

:46:16.:46:19.

responsibility is to members, not to Sadiq Khan. My job is to stand up

:46:20.:46:23.

for the people who are members of our union, and when they tell me

:46:24.:46:31.

that study that tells us that they have seen a terrible spike in verbal

:46:32.:46:34.

and physical abuse, we aren't going to stand by and do nothing. But the

:46:35.:46:39.

ticket office closures review is one of many, there's been a marked

:46:40.:46:43.

increase in them since Sadiq Khan took the reins at Hall. All the

:46:44.:46:48.

reviewing has led to accusation he is just dithering about incidents

:46:49.:46:54.

making decisions. The Conservatives on the London Assembly have been

:46:55.:46:58.

keeping a tally and reckon Sadiq Khan has called for a review 19

:46:59.:47:03.

times. It tells you he's an empty vessel basically. He loves to make

:47:04.:47:08.

promises he cannot keep and if he doesn't think he can make a promise,

:47:09.:47:12.

he will call the review because his very afraid of making any decisions.

:47:13.:47:17.

But cut the number of reviews be even higher? Andrew Gilligan was the

:47:18.:47:23.

Commissioner of cycling for Boris Johnson. He counts 32 reviews, one

:47:24.:47:28.

for every week of the mayoralty. Part of the reason we've had this

:47:29.:47:32.

blitz of reviews is that Sadiq Khan seems to find it difficult to make

:47:33.:47:36.

decisions. He's changed his position five times on Garden Bridge for

:47:37.:47:40.

instance, which is something he's got another review on now. His found

:47:41.:47:45.

it difficult to face down organised groups, tries to please both sides

:47:46.:47:54.

in the Tube strike and the almost certain result of that will be that

:47:55.:47:59.

this strikes go on longer. All of these things show difficulty in

:48:00.:48:02.

making decisions, which might prove to be one of his defining

:48:03.:48:09.

weaknesses. But just how many reviews has Sadiq Khan actually

:48:10.:48:13.

commissioned? While we were researching this story, we have

:48:14.:48:16.

people suggest 40 different subjects where at some point Sadiq Khan or

:48:17.:48:21.

one of his aides said they would review it, but City Hall say there

:48:22.:48:24.

is a big difference between an official review, like the one they

:48:25.:48:28.

did in to terrorism which came up with a document and 120

:48:29.:48:31.

recommendations at the end of it, and on the other hand one of the

:48:32.:48:36.

mayor's team saying we are looking into that, we are reviewing it. City

:48:37.:48:46.

Hall say there are 15 proper reviews, but the key question is

:48:47.:48:49.

whether all of this work will make our lives any better. There's always

:48:50.:48:51.

the question, are they reviews which are published, there is a bit of

:48:52.:48:55.

polite discussion and that's the end of it, or does something then

:48:56.:48:59.

happened? That's always a big question for reviews of this kind.

:49:00.:49:04.

The answer to that question may well be crucial to whether voters want to

:49:05.:49:09.

return Sadiq Khan to City Hall three years from now.

:49:10.:49:16.

Bob, we know your view because he did the Travelwatch review into

:49:17.:49:23.

ticket offices and acted on it. The only problem with the Travelwatch

:49:24.:49:28.

review is the unions don't take any notice of it. Can we criticise the

:49:29.:49:38.

Mayor for wanting to review and look at the evidence? I think where there

:49:39.:49:42.

is a sensible reason for it, he was trying to solve an industrial

:49:43.:49:46.

dispute and didn't succeed unfortunately, when he tries I will

:49:47.:49:50.

give him credit but on some of the other things there is really no need

:49:51.:49:55.

at all. Everybody knows for example the garden bridge was a vanity

:49:56.:49:58.

project, there is no need to have another review. At one stage was in

:49:59.:50:06.

favour of scrapping it. Any others, do you think? Should he have done

:50:07.:50:11.

one into the preparedness of terror, into fire stations. Interestingly

:50:12.:50:15.

when he did both of those, the upshot of what came out of the fire

:50:16.:50:19.

stations was it was entirely safe and satisfactory, the Terror review

:50:20.:50:28.

showed London was prepared, the work had already been done. I think there

:50:29.:50:32.

is too much of a pattern here where the review triggers a tweet and a

:50:33.:50:37.

photo opportunity and it makes the great publicity but it's not

:50:38.:50:39.

necessarily getting much done. We weren't able to interview

:50:40.:50:44.

the mayor this week, but one of Sadiq Khan's deputy

:50:45.:50:46.

mayors explained their approach. You look at the last seven or eight

:50:47.:50:49.

months since the Mayor was elected. He has secured 3.15 billion pounds

:50:50.:50:53.

to invest in affordable housing - the biggest ever deal

:50:54.:50:56.

between City Hall and He delivered the night tube,

:50:57.:50:58.

the TFL fares freeze, a police officer in every ward,

:50:59.:51:06.

the London Is Open campaign to boost The Mayor has been really busy

:51:07.:51:11.

in the last seven or eight months. But on some of the other really big

:51:12.:51:16.

decisions where he wants to make sure decisions are taken

:51:17.:51:20.

on the basis of evidence, and on some of the decisions he's

:51:21.:51:22.

inherited from his predecessor, where the decision taking appears

:51:23.:51:25.

to be ill informed or opaque, it's right that he takes advice

:51:26.:51:27.

from people with great Seema, isn't this creating

:51:28.:51:30.

a kind of impression, something about, you know,

:51:31.:51:34.

not really knowing yet I think what is very clear is that

:51:35.:51:36.

Sadiq has absolutely And, to be honest, I think

:51:37.:51:41.

Londoners recognise that, with his approval ratings going up,

:51:42.:51:44.

even in the last few months The reason why I think that this

:51:45.:51:47.

is important is because you have to have an approach where you've got

:51:48.:51:53.

the best evidence for And when you look at

:51:54.:51:56.

what Sadiq Khan's priorities are, which is putting affordable housing

:51:57.:52:00.

centre stage as well in London, making sure that we're safe,

:52:01.:52:04.

making sure that we get I mean, taxpayers want to know that

:52:05.:52:13.

you get value for money. OK, let's take something

:52:14.:52:14.

like affordable housing. We have a list, the list

:52:15.:52:15.

from City Hall here. On one of them, they put,

:52:16.:52:17.

an audit of Boris Johnson's I mean, why are they bothering

:52:18.:52:19.

with something like that, looking backwards, with the sense

:52:20.:52:23.

that it is being highly politicised, rather than concentrating

:52:24.:52:26.

on building affordable Well, I think it's also pretty clear

:52:27.:52:27.

that the cupboard was laid pretty bare when it came

:52:28.:52:32.

to housing from Boris. Right, we know that,

:52:33.:52:36.

we don't need a review to tell us. The question is, what

:52:37.:52:39.

decisions were also made, why was that the case,

:52:40.:52:40.

how do you change that? I think what is really important

:52:41.:52:43.

is a holistic approach And this is for all of our

:52:44.:52:45.

constituents in London as well, to know that you've got an approach

:52:46.:52:50.

that is going to be sustainable for affordable housing,

:52:51.:52:53.

to know that you've got an approach that is going to make sure

:52:54.:52:55.

that we are safe in London. That you haven't got overseas

:52:56.:52:58.

investment in London I think we want to make sure you've

:52:59.:53:00.

got an approach that we've got the best evidence

:53:01.:53:05.

for the best policies. You've got no problem

:53:06.:53:07.

with these reviews. If he doesn't like it,

:53:08.:53:08.

if Bob Neill doesn't like it, if other people don't like it,

:53:09.:53:12.

why doesn't he just Well, I think there are also issues

:53:13.:53:15.

around some of the decisions that Boris made, the idea

:53:16.:53:25.

that we spent a quarter and water cannons that

:53:26.:53:28.

then weren't approved. Should we have a

:53:29.:53:32.

Garden Bridge review? Shouldn't he know

:53:33.:53:34.

what he believes now? If he has got to ask the question

:53:35.:53:36.

is, he's going to be accountable for the questions that he's asking,

:53:37.:53:39.

the decisions that he's taking, if there are unanswered questions,

:53:40.:53:42.

then he would want an efficient way of doing that so that you don't go

:53:43.:53:45.

ahead spending public money for something that isn't

:53:46.:53:47.

going to deliver the Bob Neill, surely the London public

:53:48.:53:49.

wouldn't understand it if he just sort of overturned some decisions

:53:50.:53:53.

that are being taken by Boris Johnson without at least,

:53:54.:53:55.

you know, getting someone impartial or other people to come

:53:56.:53:58.

in and have a look, Two things, first of all,

:53:59.:54:00.

mayoral candidates stand Implementing his policy platform,

:54:01.:54:03.

everybody would understand... You think he should

:54:04.:54:06.

have been saying, Logic would always be

:54:07.:54:08.

that, wouldn't it? That's a good point,

:54:09.:54:11.

should he have said that, should he have said,

:54:12.:54:13.

I don't actually know

:54:14.:54:15.

what the situation is now, so I can't promise you anything

:54:16.:54:17.

for affordable housing? He wouldn't have got

:54:18.:54:19.

elected, would he? I think it's pretty clear

:54:20.:54:20.

that he's going down the road that has already seen

:54:21.:54:24.

a freezing in fair prices, that has already seen commitment to bringing

:54:25.:54:27.

more police officers, that has seen a more holistic approach

:54:28.:54:29.

to how we are going to not just deliver

:54:30.:54:31.

in the short-term but sustainably

:54:32.:54:33.

on affordable housing. Do you at least accept that

:54:34.:54:34.

if you get a comeback, and they come back with solid

:54:35.:54:39.

recommendations, they are evidence -based, they've looked

:54:40.:54:41.

at the issue, you know. You can look at them and go,

:54:42.:54:43.

fair enough, he's examined it to my satisfaction, you're

:54:44.:54:46.

not going to complain about any of these,

:54:47.:54:48.

are I've always tried not to be dog

:54:49.:54:49.

in the manger in my relationship with the Mayor, where

:54:50.:54:57.

I agree with him I will, But, for example, the fare freeze,

:54:58.:55:00.

that actually wasn't fully delivered because we

:55:01.:55:04.

have seen a fair hike. fully delivered because we

:55:05.:55:07.

have seen a fare hike. The work that was done around

:55:08.:55:09.

affordable housing delivery, signed off under the watch of Sadiq

:55:10.:55:11.

Khan with But the work started

:55:12.:55:13.

on the Boris's watch. Allow me this, because you

:55:14.:55:16.

pushed us into areas where you agree with

:55:17.:55:20.

the Mayor as well of course. One such recently was about

:55:21.:55:22.

the devolution of rail. We haven't spoken to you as you call

:55:23.:55:25.

for Chris Grayling's resignation, very unhappy with his decision not

:55:26.:55:27.

to devolve those overground services Are you being cold shouldered

:55:28.:55:30.

in the corridors of power? No, people know that

:55:31.:55:35.

I stood up for my constituents, and the support I've

:55:36.:55:37.

had from the constituency has been very significant, and the support

:55:38.:55:39.

from people in local government I think it's a great

:55:40.:55:42.

mistake that Chris Grayling unfortunately has missed an

:55:43.:55:45.

opportunity here to recognise that suburban rail services require

:55:46.:55:47.

a different treatment from rail Kent County Council this

:55:48.:55:50.

week have written to the Mayor, saying they don't agree

:55:51.:55:58.

with him that he should take over Are you not going to be

:55:59.:56:01.

at odds with a council Well, interestingly

:56:02.:56:11.

of course Kent county council until very recently

:56:12.:56:21.

supported the mayor's proposal. I'm not there to speak

:56:22.:56:23.

the Kent County Council as to why they appear

:56:24.:56:25.

to have changed their mind. But I do know for

:56:26.:56:28.

example that Sevenoaks District Council, where my services

:56:29.:56:30.

terminate, An interesting discussion

:56:31.:56:31.

actually within Kent. Now it's time for the rest

:56:32.:56:34.

of the political news in 60 seconds. London councils have called

:56:35.:56:39.

the Department for Education's revised funding plans for schools

:56:40.:56:41.

"madness", claiming they would deal another blow

:56:42.:56:43.

to cash-strapped schools. More than two thirds

:56:44.:56:45.

of schools in the city, about 1,500, face budget cuts,

:56:46.:56:48.

with initial analysis suggesting inner London boroughs would be

:56:49.:56:50.

hit particularly hard. The chief executive

:56:51.:56:56.

of the London Stock Exchange has said leaving the EU could cost

:56:57.:56:59.

the City of London up to 230,000 jobs if the Government fails

:57:00.:57:02.

to provide a clear plan Chief executive Xavier Rolet said

:57:03.:57:04.

banks could not wait for clarity New figures emerged this week

:57:05.:57:11.

highlighting the extent of soaring winter pressures

:57:12.:57:17.

on the NHS in London. More than 6,000 patients a week

:57:18.:57:21.

are being left in the back of ambulances because A

:57:22.:57:24.

departments are too This is causing knock-on problems

:57:25.:57:25.

for London ambulance crews, unable Bob Neill, in the interests of your

:57:26.:57:30.

fearless independence and speaking the truth, what do you say

:57:31.:57:43.

about the current NHS crisis? We are under pressures,

:57:44.:57:56.

because the service in London is always under

:57:57.:57:58.

pressure at this time of year and across

:57:59.:58:00.

the But I think a bit of context,

:58:01.:58:01.

and actually it deserves credit for having put

:58:02.:58:06.

some ?80 billion in this Parliament into

:58:07.:58:09.

the health service system, that's more

:58:10.:58:10.

than would have happened if we had followed the Labour Party's

:58:11.:58:13.

manifesto proposals. What I do want to make

:58:14.:58:15.

sure is that we get the And in particular I

:58:16.:58:17.

want to make sure that we work across London to join up

:58:18.:58:21.

better social services and adult Because some of the delays that we

:58:22.:58:23.

get with people being discharged, making sure that there

:58:24.:58:27.

is proper follow-up. So I think there's positive

:58:28.:58:28.

work being done by the Government, and I'm very much

:58:29.:58:31.

on the Goverment's side. We know already the number

:58:32.:58:33.

of people over 80 living much longer, great news, but it

:58:34.:58:37.

puts extra pressures. There might be positive

:58:38.:58:39.

words, but there And I think it's a shame that

:58:40.:58:41.

Conservatives led by Theresa May or are in absolute denial

:58:42.:58:55.

about what is happening to our NHS. It seems to me it is

:58:56.:58:58.

a perfect storm of cuts that are seeing the Ambulance Service

:58:59.:59:01.

missing the target in every trust That have seen since

:59:02.:59:03.

the start of December alone that four out of five patients

:59:04.:59:06.

going into A have not been seen This is coming at a time

:59:07.:59:10.

when we know that my local authority alone, there have

:59:11.:59:13.

been 60% of cuts of the budget cut That is putting a huge

:59:14.:59:16.

strain on our social Combined with ?200 million cut

:59:17.:59:20.

across the country in That is the area of making sure

:59:21.:59:23.

that we have the right It's not a surprise to see what's

:59:24.:59:27.

happening to our NHS. It's the combination

:59:28.:59:30.

of decisions made over It's devastating, and the Government

:59:31.:59:32.

needs to take much more Bob Neill, the head

:59:33.:59:39.

of the NHS in London saying this week, 10% increase

:59:40.:59:42.

in activity, they are just about coping, but not sure

:59:43.:59:45.

they are going to be There's certainly pressure,

:59:46.:59:47.

nobody is going But that's as well therefore

:59:48.:59:50.

that this Conservative government is putting more money

:59:51.:59:53.

into the NHS, it has responded to Not as much as they say they are

:59:54.:59:57.

putting in. Well, significant amounts,

:59:58.:00:06.

?80 billion going in over this Seema and I agree about joining

:00:07.:00:08.

up social care with But that's not purely a money

:00:09.:00:14.

thing, it's about how Some 50% of the delayed

:00:15.:00:17.

discharges across the country come in just 24

:00:18.:00:22.

local authority areas. So it's not strictly

:00:23.:00:24.

about money, it's about getting the local Health Authority

:00:25.:00:26.

and the local council to work better That again is something

:00:27.:00:29.

which Jeremy Hunt and the rest of the Government are working hard on,

:00:30.:00:32.

and I support them and that. That is an issue that

:00:33.:00:35.

we will be returning to a lot over the next

:00:36.:00:37.

weeks and months. Thank you both through

:00:38.:00:39.

much for coming in. Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump

:00:40.:00:44.

would tone things down after the American election

:00:45.:00:51.

campaign, they may have The period where he has been

:00:52.:01:02.

President-elect will make them think again. The inauguration is coming up

:01:03.:01:06.

on Friday. Never has the forthcoming

:01:07.:01:07.

inauguration of a president been In a moment, we'll talk

:01:08.:01:09.

to a man who knows Mr Trump But first, let's have a look

:01:10.:01:13.

at the press conference Mr Trump gave on Wednesday,

:01:14.:01:17.

in which he took the opportunity to rubbish reports that Russia has

:01:18.:01:20.

obtained compromising information You are attacking our

:01:21.:01:22.

news organisation. Can you give us a chance,

:01:23.:01:38.

you are attacking our news organisation, can you give us

:01:39.:01:42.

a chance to ask a question, sir? As far as Buzzfeed,

:01:43.:01:45.

which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they're

:01:46.:01:51.

going to suffer the consequences. Does anyone really

:01:52.:01:55.

believe that story? I'm also very much of

:01:56.:01:58.

a germaphobe, by the way. If Putin likes Donald Trump,

:01:59.:02:01.

guess what, folks, that's called The only ones that care about my tax

:02:02.:02:03.

returns are the reporters, OK? Do you not think the American

:02:04.:02:11.

public is concerned? The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first

:02:12.:02:26.

last conference. The Can will he change as President? Because he

:02:27.:02:28.

hasn't changed in the run-up to being inaugurated? I don't think he

:02:29.:02:33.

will commit he doesn't see any point in changing. Why would he change

:02:34.:02:36.

from the personality that just one, as he just said, I just one. All of

:02:37.:02:41.

the bleeding-heart liberals can wail and brush their teeth and say how

:02:42.:02:43.

ghastly that all this, Hillary should have won and so on, but he

:02:44.:02:48.

has got an incredible mandate. Remember, Trump has the House

:02:49.:02:52.

committee has the Senate, he will have the Supreme Court. He has

:02:53.:02:55.

incredible power right now. He doesn't have to listen to anybody. I

:02:56.:02:59.

spoke to him a couple of weeks ago specifically about Twitter, I asked

:03:00.:03:03.

him what the impact was of Twitter. He said, I have 60 million people

:03:04.:03:08.

following me on Twitter. I was able to bypass mainstream media, bypass

:03:09.:03:12.

all modern political convention and talk directly to potential voters.

:03:13.:03:17.

Secondly, I can turn on the TV in the morning, I can see a rival

:03:18.:03:21.

getting all of the airtime, and I can fire off a tweet, for free, as a

:03:22.:03:25.

marketing man he loves that, and, boom, I'm on the news agenda again.

:03:26.:03:29.

He was able to use that magnificently. Twitter to him didn't

:03:30.:03:33.

cost him a dollar. He is going to carry on tweeting in the last six

:03:34.:03:44.

weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump has never had an alcoholic drink a

:03:45.:03:49.

cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by the 70, he has incredible energy and

:03:50.:03:53.

he is incredibly competitive. At his heart, he is a businessman. If you

:03:54.:03:56.

look at him as a political ideologue, you completely missed the

:03:57.:04:02.

point of trouble. Don't take what he says literally, look upon it as a

:04:03.:04:05.

negotiating point that he started from, and try to do business with

:04:06.:04:08.

him as a business person would, and you may be presently surprised so

:04:09.:04:12.

pleasantly surprised. He treats the press and the media entirely

:04:13.:04:18.

differently to any other politician or main politician in that normally

:04:19.:04:24.

the politicians try to get the media off a particular subject, or they

:04:25.:04:28.

try to conciliate with the media. He just comes and punches the media in

:04:29.:04:32.

the nose when he doesn't like them. This could catch on, you know! You

:04:33.:04:38.

are absolutely right, for a start, nobody could accuse him of letting

:04:39.:04:45.

that victory go to his head. You know, he won't say, I will now be

:04:46.:04:47.

this lofty president. He's exactly the same as he was before. What is

:04:48.:04:52.

fascinating is his Laois and ship with the media. I haven't met, and

:04:53.:04:56.

I'm sure you haven't, met a party leader who is obsessed with the

:04:57.:04:59.

media. But they pretend not to be. You know, they state, oh, somebody

:05:00.:05:05.

told me about a column, I didn't read it. He is utterly transparent

:05:06.:05:12.

in his obsession with the media, he doesn't pretend. How that plays out,

:05:13.:05:17.

who knows? It's a completely different dynamic than anyone has

:05:18.:05:20.

seen by. Like he is the issue, he has appointed an unusual Cabinet,

:05:21.:05:25.

that you could criticise in many ways. Nearly all of them are

:05:26.:05:28.

independent people in their own right. A lot of them are wealthy,

:05:29.:05:33.

too. They have their own views. They might not like what he tweaked at

:05:34.:05:36.

3am, and he does have to deal with his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters,

:05:37.:05:42.

now the Defence Secretary, he might not like what's said about China at

:05:43.:05:47.

three in morning - general matters. This is what gets very conjugated.

:05:48.:05:51.

We cannot imagine here in our political system any kind of

:05:52.:05:54.

appointments like this. Using the wouldn't have a line-up of

:05:55.:05:57.

billionaires of the kind of background that he has chosen -- you

:05:58.:06:01.

simply wouldn't have. But that won't stop him saying and reading what he

:06:02.:06:05.

thinks. Maybe it will cause him some internal issues when the following

:06:06.:06:08.

day he has the square rigged with whatever they think. But he's going

:06:09.:06:13.

to press ahead. Are we any clearer in terms of policy. I know policy

:06:14.:06:20.

hasn't featured hugely in this campaign of 2016. Do we have any

:06:21.:06:24.

really clear idea what Mr Trump is hoping to achieve? He has had some

:06:25.:06:30.

consistent theme going back over 25 years. One is a deep scepticism

:06:31.:06:34.

about international trade and the kind of deals that America has been

:06:35.:06:38.

doing over that period. It has been so consistent that is has been hard

:06:39.:06:41.

to spin as something that you say during the course of a campaign of

:06:42.:06:45.

something to get elected. Ultimately, Piers is correct, he

:06:46.:06:48.

won't change. When he won the election committee gave a relatively

:06:49.:06:52.

magnanimous beach. I thought his ego had been sated and he had got what

:06:53.:06:57.

he wanted. He will end up governing as is likely eccentric New York

:06:58.:06:59.

liberal and everything will be fine. In the recent weeks it has come to

:07:00.:07:03.

my attention that that might not be entirely true!

:07:04.:07:06.

LAUGHTER It is a real test of the American

:07:07.:07:10.

system, the Texan bouncers, the foreign policy establishment which

:07:11.:07:15.

is about to have the orthodoxies disrupted -- the checks and

:07:16.:07:19.

balances. I think he has completely ripped up the American political

:07:20.:07:23.

system. Washington as we know it is dead. From his garage do things his

:07:24.:07:27.

way, he doesn't care, frankly, what any of us thinks -- Trump is going

:07:28.:07:33.

to do things his way. If he can deliver for the people who voted for

:07:34.:07:39.

him who fault this disenfranchised, -- who voted for him who felt this

:07:40.:07:44.

disenfranchised. They voted accordingly. They want to see jobs

:07:45.:07:49.

and the economy in good shape, they want to feel secure. They want to

:07:50.:07:52.

feel that immigration has been tightened. If Trump can deliver on

:07:53.:07:57.

those main theme for the rust belt communities of America, I'm telling

:07:58.:08:01.

you, he will go down as a very successful president. All of the

:08:02.:08:04.

offensive rhetoric and the argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it

:08:05.:08:07.

may be will be completely irrelevant. Let me finish with a

:08:08.:08:15.

parochial question. Is it fair to say quite well disposed to this

:08:16.:08:17.

country? And that he would like, that he's up for a speedy

:08:18.:08:19.

free-trade, bilateral free-trade you'll? Think we have to be sensible

:08:20.:08:26.

as the country. Come Friday, he is the president of the United States,

:08:27.:08:30.

the most powerful man and well. He said to me that he feels half

:08:31.:08:34.

British, his mum was born and raised in Scotland until the age of 18, he

:08:35.:08:38.

loves British, his mother used to love watching the Queen, he feels

:08:39.:08:41.

very, you know, I would roll out the red carpet for Trump, let him eat

:08:42.:08:46.

Her Majesty. The crucial point for us as a country is coming -- let him

:08:47.:08:52.

me to Her Majesty. If we can do a speedy deal within an 18 month

:08:53.:08:56.

period, it really sends a message that well but we are back in the

:08:57.:09:00.

game, that is a hugely beneficial thing for this country. Well, a man

:09:01.:09:05.

whose advisers were indicating that maybe he should learn a few things

:09:06.:09:11.

from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the

:09:12.:09:15.

Andrew Marr Show this morning. -- yes, indeed.

:09:16.:09:18.

If you don't win Copeland, and if you don't win

:09:19.:09:20.

Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast, aren't you?

:09:21.:09:21.

Our party is going to fight very hard in those elections,

:09:22.:09:26.

as we are in the local elections, to put those policies out there.

:09:27.:09:29.

It's an opportunity to challenge the Government on the NHS.

:09:30.:09:32.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the chaos of Brexit.

:09:33.:09:34.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage.

:09:35.:09:37.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on zero-hours contracts.

:09:38.:09:39.

Is there ever a moment that you look in the mirror and think,

:09:40.:09:44.

you know what, I've done my best, but this might not be for me?

:09:45.:09:47.

I look in the mirror every day and I think,

:09:48.:09:49.

let's go out there and try and create a society where there

:09:50.:09:52.

are opportunities for all, where there aren't these terrible

:09:53.:09:54.

levels of poverty, where there isn't homelessness,

:09:55.:09:56.

where there are houses for all, and where young people aren't

:09:57.:09:59.

frightened of going to university because of the debts

:10:00.:10:01.

they are going to end up with at the end of their course.

:10:02.:10:04.

Mr Corbyn earlier this morning. Steve, would it be fair to say that

:10:05.:10:10.

the mainstream of the Labour Party has now come to the conclusion that

:10:11.:10:14.

they just have to let Mr Corbyn get on with it, that they are not going

:10:15.:10:17.

to try and influence what he does. They will continue to try and have

:10:18.:10:23.

their own views, but it's his show, it's up to him, if it's a mess, he

:10:24.:10:27.

has to live with it and we'll have clean hands? For now, yes. I think

:10:28.:10:31.

they made a mistake when he was first elected to start in some cases

:10:32.:10:34.

tweeting within seconds that it was going to be a disaster, this was

:10:35.:10:38.

Labour MPs. They made a complete mess of that attempted coup in the

:10:39.:10:41.

summer, which strengthened his position. And he did, it gave Corbyn

:10:42.:10:47.

the space with total legitimacy to say that part of the problem is,

:10:48.:10:51.

we're having this public Civil War. In keeping quiet, that disappeared

:10:52.:10:57.

as part of the explanation for why Labour and low in the polls. I think

:10:58.:11:03.

they are partly doing that. But they are also struggling, the so-called

:11:04.:11:07.

mainstream Labour MPs, to decide what the distinctive agenda is. It's

:11:08.:11:11.

one of the many differences with the 80s, where you had a group of people

:11:12.:11:15.

sure of what they believed in, they left to form the SDP. What's

:11:16.:11:19.

happening now is that they are leaving politics altogether. That is

:11:20.:11:24.

a crisis of social Democrats all across Europe, including the French

:11:25.:11:27.

Socialists, as we will find out later in the spring. Let Corbyn

:11:28.:11:35.

because then, that's the strategy. There is a weary and sometimes

:11:36.:11:37.

literal resignation from the moderates in the Labour Party. If

:11:38.:11:40.

you talk to them, they are no longer angry, they have always run out of

:11:41.:11:42.

steam to be angry about what's going on. They are just sort of tired and

:11:43.:11:45.

feel that they've just got to see this through now. I think the

:11:46.:11:49.

by-elections will be interesting. When Andrew Marr said, you're toast,

:11:50.:11:54.

and you? I thought, he's never posed! That was right. A quick

:11:55.:11:58.

thought from view? One thing Corbyn has in common with Trump is immunity

:11:59.:12:03.

to bad news. I think he can lose Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long

:12:04.:12:11.

as it is not a sequence of resignations and by-elections

:12:12.:12:13.

afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20 Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy

:12:14.:12:16.

what. It may be more trouble if Labour loses the United trade union

:12:17.:12:22.

elections. We are in a period of incredible unpredictability

:12:23.:12:25.

generally in global politics. If you look at the way the next year plays

:12:26.:12:29.

out, if for example brags it was a disaster and it starts to unravel

:12:30.:12:33.

very quickly, Theresa May is attached to that, clearly label

:12:34.:12:35.

would have a great opportunity potentially disease that higher

:12:36.:12:40.

ground, and when Eddie the Tories -- Labour would have an opportunity. Is

:12:41.:12:45.

Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed him, what struck me was that he

:12:46.:12:50.

talked about being from, a laughable comparison, but when it is really

:12:51.:12:53.

laughable is this - Hillary Clinton, what were the things she stood for,

:12:54.:12:58.

nobody really knew? What does Trump stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn

:12:59.:13:02.

has the work-out four or five messages and bang, bang, bang. He

:13:03.:13:06.

could still be in business. Thank you for being with us.

:13:07.:13:08.

I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:09.:13:12.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:13.:13:14.