15/01/2017 Sunday Politics London


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.


Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership


of the EU's single market and its customs union?


We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country


Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?


As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one


of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.


Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?


Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.


In London this week: With the rail and Tube strikes bringing


the capital to a standstill, can a political solution be found


And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest


hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,


They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join


So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,


in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"


and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".


Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go


The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big


gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister


will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership


of the single market and customs union.


The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -


they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".


The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper


hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.


And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",


explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels


and call for an end to free movement.


Well, let's get some more reaction on this.


I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader


of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.


Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says


most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.


But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view


that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside


the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on


the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is


basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship


with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to


stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the


British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the


ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced


upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual


position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market


and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't


it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and


the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site


believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who


resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single


Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the


negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you


really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there


fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and


whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave


the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the


Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the


final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against


Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out


Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have


a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will


introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.


It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil


servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final


deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have


the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear


Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.


You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the


jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement


of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So


it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a


good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe


that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,


nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the


best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean


that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs


union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the


package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley


better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of


travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the


Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,


and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in


the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really


believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best


for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the


ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,


continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is


what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under


Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of


membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that


amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do


believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.


I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British


people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as


individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but


your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that


freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are


Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,


don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market


without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It


depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the


white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white


flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's


corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure


that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,


members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction


of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,


many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,


you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should


aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries


that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is


very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are


in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the


answer to my question, you haven't answered it


the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best


deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the


right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,


you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm


afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.


The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that


Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in


the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more


of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's


only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really


for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything


that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of


migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact


that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that


is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the


customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly


clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I


don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely


definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there


is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,


somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep


hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that


option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her


personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.


We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back


on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the


reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the


possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which


David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the


Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they


are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The


rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional


arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will


encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a


deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil


service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained


this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that


you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five


years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has


to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it


would include transitional arrangements over the five years.


What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind


of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media


machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has


pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,


you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single


Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of


European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out


of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of


these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the


intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate


what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on


Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the


markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she


doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted


it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.


Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this


week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to


enact a controversial piece of legislation.


Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,


could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy


If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.


The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,


while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure


a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.


Ellie Price has been reading all about it.


It was the biggest news about the news for decades,


a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.


They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.


It led to the closure of the News Of The World,


a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,


and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,


which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.


If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence


that the terrible suffering of innocent victims


like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should


To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed


the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force


publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal


costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.


It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.


We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...


This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing


of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected


from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.


It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's


I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that


you have an incomplete Leveson project.


I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years


there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press


standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,


"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"


Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat


We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot


for publishers and their journalists who are members of an


They get huge new protections from libel threats,


from privacy actions, which actually means they've got


a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.


Impress has a big image problem - not a single national


Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,


the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that


doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.


The male cells around 22,000 each day...


There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,


won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs


are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.


Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government


through the recognition setup that it has.


Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press


when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.


If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think


we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.


The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast


since the Government launched its consultation


In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,


And for that reason alone, it could take months before


a decision on what happens next is taken.


The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,


One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.


So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be


I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.


What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain


on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply


was failing to work, was not delivering effective


regulation and the press were behaving in a way


which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,


then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that


case we are going to have to take further measures,


The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.


I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts


about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives


to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.


But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom


I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News


Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,


and he now campaigns for more press regulation.


Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right


that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British


press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If


we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come


into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is


absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something


like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we


hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it


means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say


many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where


does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.


You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.


People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came


from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there


but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is


money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it


from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to


the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant


because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the


most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,


the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any


influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National


lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from


historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my


family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no


control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from


the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was


completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,


wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist


because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it


curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the


press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the


Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know


is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he


tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an


advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me


Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to


be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the


press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they


reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very


selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are


absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr


Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,


remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.


He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,


the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I


do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the


code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to


be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta


against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely


wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,


I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I


wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily


Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other


people can say what they want and many people may think they are right


but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I


have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything


about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it


possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm


asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of


the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are


some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and


the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would


newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by


enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start


their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only


they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they


won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail


fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are


relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.


The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action


against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can


understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the


boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described


Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to


Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we


would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson


compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even


papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,


they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be


regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their


own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant


one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an


expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,


the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that


either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your


approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly


independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with


a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the


Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted


to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should


have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an


expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40


which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign


up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay


potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what


the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,


the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said


it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times


journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse


scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because


that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and


equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court


judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,


saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper


should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which


is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do


what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if


something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would


happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal


circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person


that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration


because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.


That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the


newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the


Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media


outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime


bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against


the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure


guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.


The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is


somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I


can. All right, thanks for being with us.


The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,


has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England


The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay


open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.


The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.


It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England


had issued an operational pressure alert in the first


At either level three, meaning major pressures,


or level four, indicating an inability to deliver


On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons


that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million


But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.


He said that the situation at a number of Trusts


On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote


to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being


paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.


On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,


told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.


And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.


The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A


was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".


And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,


46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.


Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries


opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert


To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative


MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former


life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College


Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is


saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard


enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't


think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media


have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I


still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and


GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither


an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where


is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they


cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will


wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will


forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients


to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to


A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs


play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of


patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen


by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from


hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.


Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs


shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness


or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot


physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,


most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I


don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from


working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a


profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National


Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost


half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part


of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not


working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm


not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices


working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits


if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during


the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort


out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice


runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our


contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a


tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given


the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what


this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP


practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But


there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there


are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only


offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if


they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is


saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address


one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I


keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We


should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in


their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really


upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a


highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across


the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I


don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard


enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some


practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is


advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily


need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in


short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician


associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general


practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the


junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,


this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health


system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about


1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity


with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,


when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because


that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to


where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is


saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and


services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will


follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do


it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service


station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do


it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is


recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we


haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get


them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care


professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to


what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If


you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address


the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own


patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are


lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't


necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free


up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if


things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to


doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an


empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.


We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in


our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into


general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely


wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are


lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.


We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the


subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,


you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers


in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20


minutes: The Week Ahead. First though, the Sunday


Politics where you are. Coming up a little later -


a review into ticket office closures was one example -


Sadiq Khan likes to A careful approach,


based on evidence. Here with me, Bob Neill,


Conservative MP for Bromley and Chislehurst, and Seema Malhotra,


Labour MP for Feltham and Heston. The issue around their closure


by the last mayor Boris Johnson is rumbling on and causing trouble


in Sadiq Khan's mayoralty. He doesn't want to re-open them,


but accepts the need to put more That's not prevented a one-day


Tube strike this week, and there's the threat from the RMT


of more action next month. What with the three days of strike


action on Southern Rail, well, there's a bit of turmoil


on the trains just now. I asked the Labour leader


Jeremy Corbyn this... The Mayor of London has put 200 more


staff back into stations. And I do think there is a need


to have a ticket office, particularly in the big


interchange stations, And that surely is something that


can be discussed and negotiated. So you are saying that the Mayor


should improve his offer I'm saying there has


to be an agreement. We've put a lot of money


into the tube system, that's good. Sadiq has managed to bring forward


the 24-hour running, good. We are going to have a better


Tube service in London, but I do think there is a point,


and the public are telling me this, as a London MP, that they would


like to see ticket offices. So you would like him to look


at that and review it? I would ask him to look


at it, yes, of course. Seema, the Mayor condemned


the strikes, or this strike, And the reason is that I think


there is common ground, and a very important area of common


ground on the issue of safety on the Underground


and how we manage that. What I see in Sadiq is a man


who is determined to make a difference in London,


and very serious about his commitment that there


should be no strikes. But in doing that,


you have to be clear that you are a politician


that recognises and is on the same page


on those issues. In my view, it's right that Sadiq


commissioned the review that he did. It has led to an admission as well


by London Underground that And we absolutely have to see more


staff in our stations. What I want to see is really


constructive dialogue. I believe that the unions


have genuine concerns. We want the right answer


for Londoners, though. Londoners don't want the strikes,


they don't want the disruption. It's detrimental for


businesses and individuals. What we want is a solution, we want


to see people around the table. Sadiq Khan says there is no need


to reopen, he shouldn't reopen And the independent review


did not recommended it. Do you agree with that,


then, that we should not Well, I want to see this be part


of the ongoing discussion. Part of what came out


from the travel watch report is that there should be a task force


around how the staff are deployed. Whether there are specific


circumstances and specific stations And to have that discussion,


I think, is one that can be had People want to see that


there is a negotiation. And I believe that that is something


that with the leadership that we have, political leadership


in Sadiq, and the intent that we solve this problem


for Londoners and travellers, I think this is what we need to do -


have the negotiation and make sure Do you accept that Sadiq Khan


appears to be trying his hardest? He is condemning the strike and has


condemned the unions. Do you hold him responsible


for this strike this week? I think he could persuade his leader


to have the guts to condemn this strike and persuade fellow Londoners


like Seema to speak out and say, this is a political strike, it is


not about safety. The travel watch review has indicated this is


perfectly safe. There are more jobs being put in. This is old-fashioned,


hard left militant trade union muscle, and Londoners are suffering.


Any London MP with any decency and guts should speak out. Where you


entirely happy with the ticket office is being removed? And have


you had no concerns expressed EU? I go you have a cheap station, have


you had no concerns raised to you about how to get around safety in


tube stations -- you have a tube station. It seems to me that the


travel watch report picked up the issues sensibly. The idea of


changing the way the ticket office operated went back to Ken


Livingstone's timers -- time as mayor. All of the work has been done


on this. This is a case of the unions flexing their muscles on


holding passengers to ransom. Unfortunately, the national


leadership of the Labour Party will not speak out against it. The


outcome of that is that journey Corbyn does not condemn in


forthright terms of the strike that happened on Monday. Should he have


done? I believe that striking is not the way forward on this issue. That


is because there is genuine, Brown. It is a different situation to


Southern Rail. -- there is genuine common ground. Would you expect him


to say that like you have just said it? My view is this, very clearly,


the issue with safety is the one that we have got to focus on. This


is not about, you know, solely to get offices or not, this is about


safety of people like you or me. I travel on my own late at night...


Are you saying that a leader does not understand that? He thinks Sadiq


Khan should reopen some of these ticket offices, whatever travel


watch says, he has looked at it, he has people raising this with him, do


you not think, was he right to say that and go against what the mayor


says? Siddique was elected as the Mayor of London and he has to be


accountable for these issues -- Sadiq Khan. The white should he


ignored me Corbyn on this one? I don't think that is the issue here.


I think the issue is, can we make sure a negotiation happens on the


issues? I, like other Londoners, want to see us tackle this issue of


safety for women and young people and everybody, we have got 24-hour


is underground now, we should be making sure that these issues are


addressed. Bob, you're not going to disagree with that. The report which


you have supported and said was the right thing to do, of course, also


said that the closure under the previous Conservative man was not


done efficiently and well and not done giving confidence the


passengers, would you accept that? The evidence suggests the issue


around things like reassurance to the public when we have 24-hour tube


is not best done by having someone locked away in a ticket office, is


by having greater visibility and I suspect any Conservative mayor would


adopt that approach too. So why aren't we being pragmatic about


this? Let's move on. As we've been saying,


the Mayor asked the passenger watchdog Travelwatch to do a review,


before opting not to It's been just one of a number


of reviews the Labour mayor has ordered in his first few months


at City Hall. The Conservatives suggest


it's a sign of weakness Horrible. We were here at half past


five. I don't support it, it's ridiculous. The industrial action


this week was over a dispute about closing ticket offices, something


Sadiq Khan had hoped he could resolve by holding an official


review of the policy. In the end though it wasn't enough to convince


the trade unions to call it off. I asked the Independent Travelwatch to


undertake a review around ticket office closures, their report back


-- came back in December. The TSSA union said they based their decision


not on the review but what members were telling them. Our


responsibility is to members, not to Sadiq Khan. My job is to stand up


for the people who are members of our union, and when they tell me


that study that tells us that they have seen a terrible spike in verbal


and physical abuse, we aren't going to stand by and do nothing. But the


ticket office closures review is one of many, there's been a marked


increase in them since Sadiq Khan took the reins at Hall. All the


reviewing has led to accusation he is just dithering about incidents


making decisions. The Conservatives on the London Assembly have been


keeping a tally and reckon Sadiq Khan has called for a review 19


times. It tells you he's an empty vessel basically. He loves to make


promises he cannot keep and if he doesn't think he can make a promise,


he will call the review because his very afraid of making any decisions.


But cut the number of reviews be even higher? Andrew Gilligan was the


Commissioner of cycling for Boris Johnson. He counts 32 reviews, one


for every week of the mayoralty. Part of the reason we've had this


blitz of reviews is that Sadiq Khan seems to find it difficult to make


decisions. He's changed his position five times on Garden Bridge for


instance, which is something he's got another review on now. His found


it difficult to face down organised groups, tries to please both sides


in the Tube strike and the almost certain result of that will be that


this strikes go on longer. All of these things show difficulty in


making decisions, which might prove to be one of his defining


weaknesses. But just how many reviews has Sadiq Khan actually


commissioned? While we were researching this story, we have


people suggest 40 different subjects where at some point Sadiq Khan or


one of his aides said they would review it, but City Hall say there


is a big difference between an official review, like the one they


did in to terrorism which came up with a document and 120


recommendations at the end of it, and on the other hand one of the


mayor's team saying we are looking into that, we are reviewing it. City


Hall say there are 15 proper reviews, but the key question is


whether all of this work will make our lives any better. There's always


the question, are they reviews which are published, there is a bit of


polite discussion and that's the end of it, or does something then


happened? That's always a big question for reviews of this kind.


The answer to that question may well be crucial to whether voters want to


return Sadiq Khan to City Hall three years from now.


Bob, we know your view because he did the Travelwatch review into


ticket offices and acted on it. The only problem with the Travelwatch


review is the unions don't take any notice of it. Can we criticise the


Mayor for wanting to review and look at the evidence? I think where there


is a sensible reason for it, he was trying to solve an industrial


dispute and didn't succeed unfortunately, when he tries I will


give him credit but on some of the other things there is really no need


at all. Everybody knows for example the garden bridge was a vanity


project, there is no need to have another review. At one stage was in


favour of scrapping it. Any others, do you think? Should he have done


one into the preparedness of terror, into fire stations. Interestingly


when he did both of those, the upshot of what came out of the fire


stations was it was entirely safe and satisfactory, the Terror review


showed London was prepared, the work had already been done. I think there


is too much of a pattern here where the review triggers a tweet and a


photo opportunity and it makes the great publicity but it's not


necessarily getting much done. We weren't able to interview


the mayor this week, but one of Sadiq Khan's deputy


mayors explained their approach. You look at the last seven or eight


months since the Mayor was elected. He has secured 3.15 billion pounds


to invest in affordable housing - the biggest ever deal


between City Hall and He delivered the night tube,


the TFL fares freeze, a police officer in every ward,


the London Is Open campaign to boost The Mayor has been really busy


in the last seven or eight months. But on some of the other really big


decisions where he wants to make sure decisions are taken


on the basis of evidence, and on some of the decisions he's


inherited from his predecessor, where the decision taking appears


to be ill informed or opaque, it's right that he takes advice


from people with great Seema, isn't this creating


a kind of impression, something about, you know,


not really knowing yet I think what is very clear is that


Sadiq has absolutely And, to be honest, I think


Londoners recognise that, with his approval ratings going up,


even in the last few months The reason why I think that this


is important is because you have to have an approach where you've got


the best evidence for And when you look at


what Sadiq Khan's priorities are, which is putting affordable housing


centre stage as well in London, making sure that we're safe,


making sure that we get I mean, taxpayers want to know that


you get value for money. OK, let's take something


like affordable housing. We have a list, the list


from City Hall here. On one of them, they put,


an audit of Boris Johnson's I mean, why are they bothering


with something like that, looking backwards, with the sense


that it is being highly politicised, rather than concentrating


on building affordable Well, I think it's also pretty clear


that the cupboard was laid pretty bare when it came


to housing from Boris. Right, we know that,


we don't need a review to tell us. The question is, what


decisions were also made, why was that the case,


how do you change that? I think what is really important


is a holistic approach And this is for all of our


constituents in London as well, to know that you've got an approach


that is going to be sustainable for affordable housing,


to know that you've got an approach that is going to make sure


that we are safe in London. That you haven't got overseas


investment in London I think we want to make sure you've


got an approach that we've got the best evidence


for the best policies. You've got no problem


with these reviews. If he doesn't like it,


if Bob Neill doesn't like it, if other people don't like it,


why doesn't he just Well, I think there are also issues


around some of the decisions that Boris made, the idea


that we spent a quarter and water cannons that


then weren't approved. Should we have a


Garden Bridge review? Shouldn't he know


what he believes now? If he has got to ask the question


is, he's going to be accountable for the questions that he's asking,


the decisions that he's taking, if there are unanswered questions,


then he would want an efficient way of doing that so that you don't go


ahead spending public money for something that isn't


going to deliver the Bob Neill, surely the London public


wouldn't understand it if he just sort of overturned some decisions


that are being taken by Boris Johnson without at least,


you know, getting someone impartial or other people to come


in and have a look, Two things, first of all,


mayoral candidates stand Implementing his policy platform,


everybody would understand... You think he should


have been saying, Logic would always be


that, wouldn't it? That's a good point,


should he have said that, should he have said,


I don't actually know


what the situation is now, so I can't promise you anything


for affordable housing? He wouldn't have got


elected, would he? I think it's pretty clear


that he's going down the road that has already seen


a freezing in fair prices, that has already seen commitment to bringing


more police officers, that has seen a more holistic approach


to how we are going to not just deliver


in the short-term but sustainably


on affordable housing. Do you at least accept that


if you get a comeback, and they come back with solid


recommendations, they are evidence -based, they've looked


at the issue, you know. You can look at them and go,


fair enough, he's examined it to my satisfaction, you're


not going to complain about any of these,


are I've always tried not to be dog


in the manger in my relationship with the Mayor, where


I agree with him I will, But, for example, the fare freeze,


that actually wasn't fully delivered because we


have seen a fair hike. fully delivered because we


have seen a fare hike. The work that was done around


affordable housing delivery, signed off under the watch of Sadiq


Khan with But the work started


on the Boris's watch. Allow me this, because you


pushed us into areas where you agree with


the Mayor as well of course. One such recently was about


the devolution of rail. We haven't spoken to you as you call


for Chris Grayling's resignation, very unhappy with his decision not


to devolve those overground services Are you being cold shouldered


in the corridors of power? No, people know that


I stood up for my constituents, and the support I've


had from the constituency has been very significant, and the support


from people in local government I think it's a great


mistake that Chris Grayling unfortunately has missed an


opportunity here to recognise that suburban rail services require


a different treatment from rail Kent County Council this


week have written to the Mayor, saying they don't agree


with him that he should take over Are you not going to be


at odds with a council Well, interestingly


of course Kent county council until very recently


supported the mayor's proposal. I'm not there to speak


the Kent County Council as to why they appear


to have changed their mind. But I do know for


example that Sevenoaks District Council, where my services


terminate, An interesting discussion


actually within Kent. Now it's time for the rest


of the political news in 60 seconds. London councils have called


the Department for Education's revised funding plans for schools


"madness", claiming they would deal another blow


to cash-strapped schools. More than two thirds


of schools in the city, about 1,500, face budget cuts,


with initial analysis suggesting inner London boroughs would be


hit particularly hard. The chief executive


of the London Stock Exchange has said leaving the EU could cost


the City of London up to 230,000 jobs if the Government fails


to provide a clear plan Chief executive Xavier Rolet said


banks could not wait for clarity New figures emerged this week


highlighting the extent of soaring winter pressures


on the NHS in London. More than 6,000 patients a week


are being left in the back of ambulances because A


departments are too This is causing knock-on problems


for London ambulance crews, unable Bob Neill, in the interests of your


fearless independence and speaking the truth, what do you say


about the current NHS crisis? We are under pressures,


because the service in London is always under


pressure at this time of year and across


the But I think a bit of context,


and actually it deserves credit for having put


some ?80 billion in this Parliament into


the health service system, that's more


than would have happened if we had followed the Labour Party's


manifesto proposals. What I do want to make


sure is that we get the And in particular I


want to make sure that we work across London to join up


better social services and adult Because some of the delays that we


get with people being discharged, making sure that there


is proper follow-up. So I think there's positive


work being done by the Government, and I'm very much


on the Goverment's side. We know already the number


of people over 80 living much longer, great news, but it


puts extra pressures. There might be positive


words, but there And I think it's a shame that


Conservatives led by Theresa May or are in absolute denial


about what is happening to our NHS. It seems to me it is


a perfect storm of cuts that are seeing the Ambulance Service


missing the target in every trust That have seen since


the start of December alone that four out of five patients


going into A have not been seen This is coming at a time


when we know that my local authority alone, there have


been 60% of cuts of the budget cut That is putting a huge


strain on our social Combined with ?200 million cut


across the country in That is the area of making sure


that we have the right It's not a surprise to see what's


happening to our NHS. It's the combination


of decisions made over It's devastating, and the Government


needs to take much more Bob Neill, the head


of the NHS in London saying this week, 10% increase


in activity, they are just about coping, but not sure


they are going to be There's certainly pressure,


nobody is going But that's as well therefore


that this Conservative government is putting more money


into the NHS, it has responded to Not as much as they say they are


putting in. Well, significant amounts,


?80 billion going in over this Seema and I agree about joining


up social care with But that's not purely a money


thing, it's about how Some 50% of the delayed


discharges across the country come in just 24


local authority areas. So it's not strictly


about money, it's about getting the local Health Authority


and the local council to work better That again is something


which Jeremy Hunt and the rest of the Government are working hard on,


and I support them and that. That is an issue that


we will be returning to a lot over the next


weeks and months. Thank you both through


much for coming in. Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump


would tone things down after the American election


campaign, they may have The period where he has been


President-elect will make them think again. The inauguration is coming up


on Friday. Never has the forthcoming


inauguration of a president been In a moment, we'll talk


to a man who knows Mr Trump But first, let's have a look


at the press conference Mr Trump gave on Wednesday,


in which he took the opportunity to rubbish reports that Russia has


obtained compromising information You are attacking our


news organisation. Can you give us a chance,


you are attacking our news organisation, can you give us


a chance to ask a question, sir? As far as Buzzfeed,


which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they're


going to suffer the consequences. Does anyone really


believe that story? I'm also very much of


a germaphobe, by the way. If Putin likes Donald Trump,


guess what, folks, that's called The only ones that care about my tax


returns are the reporters, OK? Do you not think the American


public is concerned? The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first


last conference. The Can will he change as President? Because he


hasn't changed in the run-up to being inaugurated? I don't think he


will commit he doesn't see any point in changing. Why would he change


from the personality that just one, as he just said, I just one. All of


the bleeding-heart liberals can wail and brush their teeth and say how


ghastly that all this, Hillary should have won and so on, but he


has got an incredible mandate. Remember, Trump has the House


committee has the Senate, he will have the Supreme Court. He has


incredible power right now. He doesn't have to listen to anybody. I


spoke to him a couple of weeks ago specifically about Twitter, I asked


him what the impact was of Twitter. He said, I have 60 million people


following me on Twitter. I was able to bypass mainstream media, bypass


all modern political convention and talk directly to potential voters.


Secondly, I can turn on the TV in the morning, I can see a rival


getting all of the airtime, and I can fire off a tweet, for free, as a


marketing man he loves that, and, boom, I'm on the news agenda again.


He was able to use that magnificently. Twitter to him didn't


cost him a dollar. He is going to carry on tweeting in the last six


weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump has never had an alcoholic drink a


cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by the 70, he has incredible energy and


he is incredibly competitive. At his heart, he is a businessman. If you


look at him as a political ideologue, you completely missed the


point of trouble. Don't take what he says literally, look upon it as a


negotiating point that he started from, and try to do business with


him as a business person would, and you may be presently surprised so


pleasantly surprised. He treats the press and the media entirely


differently to any other politician or main politician in that normally


the politicians try to get the media off a particular subject, or they


try to conciliate with the media. He just comes and punches the media in


the nose when he doesn't like them. This could catch on, you know! You


are absolutely right, for a start, nobody could accuse him of letting


that victory go to his head. You know, he won't say, I will now be


this lofty president. He's exactly the same as he was before. What is


fascinating is his Laois and ship with the media. I haven't met, and


I'm sure you haven't, met a party leader who is obsessed with the


media. But they pretend not to be. You know, they state, oh, somebody


told me about a column, I didn't read it. He is utterly transparent


in his obsession with the media, he doesn't pretend. How that plays out,


who knows? It's a completely different dynamic than anyone has


seen by. Like he is the issue, he has appointed an unusual Cabinet,


that you could criticise in many ways. Nearly all of them are


independent people in their own right. A lot of them are wealthy,


too. They have their own views. They might not like what he tweaked at


3am, and he does have to deal with his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters,


now the Defence Secretary, he might not like what's said about China at


three in morning - general matters. This is what gets very conjugated.


We cannot imagine here in our political system any kind of


appointments like this. Using the wouldn't have a line-up of


billionaires of the kind of background that he has chosen -- you


simply wouldn't have. But that won't stop him saying and reading what he


thinks. Maybe it will cause him some internal issues when the following


day he has the square rigged with whatever they think. But he's going


to press ahead. Are we any clearer in terms of policy. I know policy


hasn't featured hugely in this campaign of 2016. Do we have any


really clear idea what Mr Trump is hoping to achieve? He has had some


consistent theme going back over 25 years. One is a deep scepticism


about international trade and the kind of deals that America has been


doing over that period. It has been so consistent that is has been hard


to spin as something that you say during the course of a campaign of


something to get elected. Ultimately, Piers is correct, he


won't change. When he won the election committee gave a relatively


magnanimous beach. I thought his ego had been sated and he had got what


he wanted. He will end up governing as is likely eccentric New York


liberal and everything will be fine. In the recent weeks it has come to


my attention that that might not be entirely true!


LAUGHTER It is a real test of the American


system, the Texan bouncers, the foreign policy establishment which


is about to have the orthodoxies disrupted -- the checks and


balances. I think he has completely ripped up the American political


system. Washington as we know it is dead. From his garage do things his


way, he doesn't care, frankly, what any of us thinks -- Trump is going


to do things his way. If he can deliver for the people who voted for


him who fault this disenfranchised, -- who voted for him who felt this


disenfranchised. They voted accordingly. They want to see jobs


and the economy in good shape, they want to feel secure. They want to


feel that immigration has been tightened. If Trump can deliver on


those main theme for the rust belt communities of America, I'm telling


you, he will go down as a very successful president. All of the


offensive rhetoric and the argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it


may be will be completely irrelevant. Let me finish with a


parochial question. Is it fair to say quite well disposed to this


country? And that he would like, that he's up for a speedy


free-trade, bilateral free-trade you'll? Think we have to be sensible


as the country. Come Friday, he is the president of the United States,


the most powerful man and well. He said to me that he feels half


British, his mum was born and raised in Scotland until the age of 18, he


loves British, his mother used to love watching the Queen, he feels


very, you know, I would roll out the red carpet for Trump, let him eat


Her Majesty. The crucial point for us as a country is coming -- let him


me to Her Majesty. If we can do a speedy deal within an 18 month


period, it really sends a message that well but we are back in the


game, that is a hugely beneficial thing for this country. Well, a man


whose advisers were indicating that maybe he should learn a few things


from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the


Andrew Marr Show this morning. -- yes, indeed.


If you don't win Copeland, and if you don't win


Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast, aren't you?


Our party is going to fight very hard in those elections,


as we are in the local elections, to put those policies out there.


It's an opportunity to challenge the Government on the NHS.


It's an opportunity to challenge them on the chaos of Brexit.


It's an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage.


It's an opportunity to challenge them on zero-hours contracts.


Is there ever a moment that you look in the mirror and think,


you know what, I've done my best, but this might not be for me?


I look in the mirror every day and I think,


let's go out there and try and create a society where there


are opportunities for all, where there aren't these terrible


levels of poverty, where there isn't homelessness,


where there are houses for all, and where young people aren't


frightened of going to university because of the debts


they are going to end up with at the end of their course.


Mr Corbyn earlier this morning. Steve, would it be fair to say that


the mainstream of the Labour Party has now come to the conclusion that


they just have to let Mr Corbyn get on with it, that they are not going


to try and influence what he does. They will continue to try and have


their own views, but it's his show, it's up to him, if it's a mess, he


has to live with it and we'll have clean hands? For now, yes. I think


they made a mistake when he was first elected to start in some cases


tweeting within seconds that it was going to be a disaster, this was


Labour MPs. They made a complete mess of that attempted coup in the


summer, which strengthened his position. And he did, it gave Corbyn


the space with total legitimacy to say that part of the problem is,


we're having this public Civil War. In keeping quiet, that disappeared


as part of the explanation for why Labour and low in the polls. I think


they are partly doing that. But they are also struggling, the so-called


mainstream Labour MPs, to decide what the distinctive agenda is. It's


one of the many differences with the 80s, where you had a group of people


sure of what they believed in, they left to form the SDP. What's


happening now is that they are leaving politics altogether. That is


a crisis of social Democrats all across Europe, including the French


Socialists, as we will find out later in the spring. Let Corbyn


because then, that's the strategy. There is a weary and sometimes


literal resignation from the moderates in the Labour Party. If


you talk to them, they are no longer angry, they have always run out of


steam to be angry about what's going on. They are just sort of tired and


feel that they've just got to see this through now. I think the


by-elections will be interesting. When Andrew Marr said, you're toast,


and you? I thought, he's never posed! That was right. A quick


thought from view? One thing Corbyn has in common with Trump is immunity


to bad news. I think he can lose Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long


as it is not a sequence of resignations and by-elections


afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20 Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy


what. It may be more trouble if Labour loses the United trade union


elections. We are in a period of incredible unpredictability


generally in global politics. If you look at the way the next year plays


out, if for example brags it was a disaster and it starts to unravel


very quickly, Theresa May is attached to that, clearly label


would have a great opportunity potentially disease that higher


ground, and when Eddie the Tories -- Labour would have an opportunity. Is


Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed him, what struck me was that he


talked about being from, a laughable comparison, but when it is really


laughable is this - Hillary Clinton, what were the things she stood for,


nobody really knew? What does Trump stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn


has the work-out four or five messages and bang, bang, bang. He


could still be in business. Thank you for being with us.


I'll be back at the same time next weekend.


Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


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