22/01/2017 Sunday Politics London

It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to visit US

President Donald Trump this week - she's promised to hold "very

frank" conversations with the new and controversial

Speaking of the 45th President of America,

we'll be looking at what the Trump presidency could hold

in store for Britain and the rest of the world.

And with the Supreme Court expected to say that Parliament should

have a vote before the Brexit process begins, we'll ask

Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott what Labour will do next.

In the capital, a ?2 billion regeneration scheme in north London.

Is a public-private partnership the best way,

And to talk about all of that and more, I'm joined by three

journalists who, in an era of so-called fake news, can be

relied upon for their accuracy, their impartiality -

and their willingness to come to the studio

It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

and Tom Newton Dunn, and during the programme they'll be

tweeting as often as the 45th President of the USA in the middle

So - the Prime Minister has been appearing on the BBC this morning.

She was mostly talking about Donald Trump and Brexit,

but she was also asked about a story on the front of this

It's reported that an unarmed Trident missile test fired

from the submarine HMS Vengeance near the Florida coast in June

The paper says the incident took place weeks before a crucial Commons

Well, let's have listen to Theresa May talking

The issue that we were talking about in the House of Commons

It was about whether or not we should renew Trident,

whether we should look to the future and have a replacement Trident.

That's what we were talking about in the House of Commons.

That's what the House of Commons voted for.

He doesn't want to defend our country with an independent

There are tests that take place all the time, regularly,

What we were talking about in that debate that took place...

I'm not going to get an answer to this.

Tom, it was clear this was going to come up this morning. It is on the

front page of the Sunday Times. It would seem to me the Prime Minister

wasn't properly briefed on how to reply. I think she probably was, but

the Prime Minister we now have doesn't necessarily answer all

questions in the straightest way. She didn't answer that one and all.

Unlike previous ones? She made it quite clear she was briefed. You

read between the Theresa May lines. By simply not answering Andrew Marr

four times, it is obvious she knew, and that she knew before she went

into the House of Commons and urged everyone to renew the ?40 billion

replacement programme. Of course it is an embarrassment, but does it

have political legs? I don't think so. She didn't mislead the Commons.

If she wanted to close it down, the answer should have been, these are

matters of national security. There's nothing more important in

that than our nuclear deterrent. I'm not prepared to talk about testing.

End of. But she didn't. Maybe you should be briefing her. That's a

good answer. She is an interesting interviewee. She shows it when she

is nervous. She was transparently uneasy answering those questions,

and the fact she didn't answer it definitively suggests she did know

and didn't want to say it, and she answered awkwardly. But how wider

point, that the House of Commons voted for the renewal of Trident,

suggests to me that in the broader sweep of things, this will not run,

because if there was another vote, I would suggest she'd win it again.

But it is an embarrassment and she handled it with a transparent

awkwardness. She said that the tests go on all the time, but not of the

missiles. Does it not show that when the Prime Minister leaves her

comfort zone of Home Office affairs or related matters, she often

struggles. We've seen it under questioning from Mr Corbyn even, and

we saw it again today. Absolutely. Tests of various aspects of the

missiles go on all the time, but there's only been five since 2000.

What you described wouldn't have worked, because in previous tests

they have always been very public about it. Look how well our missiles

work! She may not have misled Parliament, but she may not have

known about it. If she didn't know, does Michael Fallon still have a job

on Monday? Should Parliament know about a test that doesn't work? Some

would say absolutely not. Our deterrent is there to deter people

from attacking us. If they know that we are hitting the United States by

mistake rather than the Atlantic Ocean, then... There is such a thing

as national security, and telling all the bad guys about where we are

going wrong may not be a good idea. It was her first statement as Prime

Minister to put her case for renewal, to have the vote on

Trident, and in that context, it is significant not to say anything. If

anyone knows where the missile landed, give us a call!

So Donald Trump's inauguration day closed with him dancing

to Frank Sinatra's My Way, and whatever your view on the 45th

President of the United States he certainly did do it his way.

Not for him the idealistic call for national unity -

instead he used Friday's inaugural address to launch a blistering

attack on the dark state of the nation and the political

class, and to promise to take his uncompromising approach

from the campaign trail to the White House.

Here's Adam Fleming, with a reminder of how

First, dropping by for a cup of tea and a slightly awkward exchange

Then, friends, foes and predecessors watched

I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear...

The crowds seemed smaller than previous inaugurations,

the speech tougher then any previous incoming president.

From this day forth, it's going to be only America first.

In the meantime, there were sporadic protests in Washington, DC.

Opponents made their voices heard around the world too.

The President, who'd criticised the work of

the intelligence agencies, fitted in a visit to the CIA.

There is nobody that feels stronger about the intelligence community

And, back at the office, in the dark, a signature signalled

the end of the Obama era and the dawn of Trump.

So, as you heard there, President Trump used his

inauguration to repeat his campaign promise to put "America first"

in all his decisions, and offered some hints of what to expect

He talked of in America in carnage, to be rebuilt by American hands and

American Labour. President Trump has already started to dismantle key

parts of the Obama Legacy, including the unwinding of the affordable care

act, and the siding of the climate action plan to tackle global

warning. Little to say about foreign policy, but promised to eradicate

Islamic terrorism from the face of the Earth, insisting he would

restore the US military to unquestioning dominance. He also

said the US would develop a state missile defence system to deal with

threats he sees from Iran and North Korea. In a statement that painted a

bleak picture of the country he now runs, he said his would be a law and

order Administration, and he would keep the innocents safe by building

the border war with Mexico. One thing he didn't mention, for the

first time ever, there is a Eurosceptic in the oval office, who

is also an enthusiast for Brexit. We're joined now by Ted Malloch -

he's a Trump supporter who's been tipped as the president's

choice for US ambassador to the EU, and he's

just flown back from Washington. And by James Rubin -

he's a democrat who served Let's start with that last point I

made in the voice over there. We now have a Eurosceptic in the oval

office. He is pro-Brexit and not keen on further European Union

integration. What are the implications of that? First of all,

a renewal of the US- UK special relationship. You see the Prime

Minister already going to build and rebuild this relationship. Already,

the bust of Winston Churchill is back in the oval office.

Interestingly, Martin Luther King's bust is also there, so there is an

act of unity in that first movement of dusts. Donald Trump will be

oriented between bilateral relationships and not multilateral

or supernatural. Supranational full. What are the implications of someone

in the White House now not believing in it? I think we are present in the

unravelling of America's leadership of the West. There is now a thing

called the west that America has led since the end of World War II,

creating supranational - we just heard supernatural! These

institutions were created. With American leadership, the world was

at peace in Europe, and the world grew increasingly democratic and

prosperous. Wars were averted that could be extremely costly. When

something works in diplomacy, you don't really understand what the

consequences could have been. I think we've got complacent. The new

president is taking advantage of that. It is a terrible tragedy that

so many in the West take for granted the successful leadership and

institutions we have built. You could argue, as James Rubin has

argued in some articles, that... Will Mr Trump's America be more

involved in the world than the Obama won? Or will it continue the process

with running shoes on that began with Mr Obama? President Obama

stepped back from American leadership. He withdrew from the

world. He had a horrendous eight years in office, and American powers

have diminished everywhere in the world, not just in Europe. That

power will reassert. The focus will be on America first, but there are

foreign interests around the world... How does it reassert itself

around the world? I think the institutions will be recreated. Some

may be taken down. There could be some new ones. I think Nato itself,

and certainly the Defence Secretary will have discussions with Donald

Trump about how Nato can be reshaped, and maybe there will be

more burden sharing. That is an important thing for him. You are

tipped to be the US ambassador to Brussels, to the EU, and we are

still waiting to hear if that will happen. Is it true to say that Mr

Trump does not believe in EU integration? I think you made that

clear in the speech. He talked about supranational. He does not believe

in those kinds of organisations. He is investing himself in bilateral

relationships, the first of which will be with the UK. So we have a

president who does not believe in EU integration and has been highly

critical of Nato. Do the people he has appointed to defend, Secretary

of State, national security, do you think that will temper this

anti-NATO wretched? Will he come round to a more pro-NATO situation?

I think those of us who care about America's situation in the world

will come in to miss President Obama a lot. I think the Secretary of

State and the faculty of defence will limit the damage and will urge

him not to take formal steps to unravel this most powerful and most

successful alliance in history, the Nato alliance. But the damage is

already being done. When you are the leader of the West, leadership means

you are persuading, encouraging, bolstering your leadership and these

institutions by the way you speak. Millions, if not hundreds of

millions of people, have now heard the US say that what they care about

is within their borders. What do you say to that? It is such

an overstatement. The point is that Donald Trump is in a Jacksonian

tradition of national populism. He is appealing to the people first.

The other day, I was sitting below this page during the address, and he

said, everyone sitting behind me as part of the problem. Everyone in

front of me, the crowd and the crowd on television, is part of the

solution, so we are giving the Government back to the people. That

emphasis is going to change American life, including American

International relations. It doesn't moving the leak back -- it doesn't

mean we are moving out of Nato, it simply means we will put our

national interests first. There were echoes of Andrew Jackson's

inauguration address of 1820. That night, the Jacksonians trashed the

White House, but Mr Trump's people didn't do that, so there is a

difference there. He also said something else in the address - that

protectionism would lead to prosperity. I would suggest there is

no evidence for that in the post-war world. He talked about protecting

the American worker, American jobs, the American economy. I actually

think that Donald Trump will not turn out to be a protectionist. If

you read the heart of the deal... This is referring to two Republican

senators who introduce massive tariffs in the Hoover

administration. Exactly. If you read The Art Of The Deal, you will see

how Donald Trump deals with individuals and countries. There is

a lot of bluster, positioning, and I think you already see this in

bringing jobs by the United States. Things are going to change. Let's

also deal with this proposition. China is the biggest loser of this

election result. Let me say this: The first time in American history

and American president has set forth his view of the world, and it is a

mercantile view of the world, who makes more money, who gets more

trade, it doesn't look at the shared values, leadership and defends the

world needs. The art of the deal has no application to America's

leadership of the world, that's what we're learning. You can be a great

businessman and make great real estate deals - whether he did not is

debatable - but it has nothing to do with inspiring shared values from

the West. You saying China may lose, because he may pressure them to

reduce their trade deficit with the US. They may or may not. We may both

lose. Right now, his Secretary of State has said, and I think he will

walk this back when he is brief, that they will prevent the Chinese

from entering these islands in the South China Sea. If they were to do

that, it would be a blockade, and there would be a shooting war

between the United States and China, so US - China relations are the most

important bilateral relationship of the United States, and they don't

lend themselves to the bluff and bluster that may have worked when

you are trying to get a big building on second Ave in Manhattan. Is China

the biggest loser? I think the Chinese have a lot to lose. Gigi and

Ping was in Davos this week -- Xi Jin Ping was in Davos.

Is Germany the second biggest loser in the sense that I understand he

hasn't agreed time to see Angela Merkel yet, also that those close to

him believe that Germany is guilty of currency manipulation by adopting

a weak your row instead of the strong Deutschmark, and that that is

why they are running a huge balance of payments surplus with the United

States. American - German relations may not be great. There is a point

of view throughout Europe. You only have to talk to the southern

Europeans about this question. It seems like the euro has been aligned

to benefit Germany. Joe Stiglitz, the famous left of centre Democrat

economist, made the same case in a recent book. In this case, I think

Germany will be put under the spotlight. Angela Merkel has shown

herself to be the most respected and the most successful leader in

Europe. We who care about the West, who care about the shared values of

the West, should pray and hope that she is re-elected. This isn't about

dollars and cents. We're living in a time whether Russian leader has

another country in Europe and for some inexplicable reason, the

American president, who can use his insult diplomacy on everyone,

including Mrs Merkel, the only person he can't seem to find

anything to criticise about is Mr Putin. There are things more

important than the actual details of your currency. There are things like

preventing another war in Europe, preventing a war between the Chinese

and the US. You talk about the Trident missile all morning, nuclear

deterrence is extremely important. It doesn't lend itself to the bluff

and bluster of a real estate deal. I understand all that, but the fact we

are even talking about these things shows the new world we are moving

into. I'd like to get you both to react to this. This is a man that

ended the Bush Dynasty, a man that beat the Clinton machine. In his

inauguration, not only did he not reach out to the Democrats, he

didn't even mention the Republicans. These are changed days for us. They

are, and change can be good or disastrous. I'm worried that it's

easy in the world of diplomacy and in them -- for the leadership of the

United States to break relationships and ruin alliances. These are things

that were carefully nurtured. George Schultz, the American Secretary of

State under Reagan talked about gardening, the slow, careful

creation of a place with bilateral relationships that were blossoming

and flowering multilateral relationships that take decades to

create, and he will throw them away in a matter of days. The final

word... I work for George Schultz. He was a Marine who stood up

America, defended America, who would be in favour of many of the things

that Donald Trump and the tramp Administration... Give him a call.

His top aide macs that I've spoken to are appalled by Mr Trump's

abdication of leadership. He is going to our radically -- he's going

to eradicate extremist Islam from the face of the year. Is that

realistic? I know people in the national security realm have worked

on a plan. They say they will have such a plan in some detail within 90

days. Lets hope they succeed. We have run out of time. As a issues.

Thank you, both. -- fascinating issues.

So Theresa May promised a big speech on Brexit, and this week -

perhaps against expectation - she delivered, trying to answer

claims that the government didn't have a plan with an explicit

wish-list of what she hopes to achieve in negotiations with the EU.

To her allies it was ambitious, bold, optimistic -

to her opponents it was full of contradictions

Here's Adam again, with a reminder of the speech and how

There are speeches, and there are speeches.

Like Theresa May's 12 principles for a Brexit deal leading

to the UK fully out of the EU but still friendly in terms

This agreement should allow for the freest possible trade

in goods and services between Britain and the EU's member states.

It should give British companies the maximum

operate within European markets and let European businesses do

She also said no deal would be better than the wrong deal,

We want to test what people think about what she's just said.

Do we have any of our future negotiating

As the European Parliament voted for its new

president, its chief negotiator sounded off.

Saying, OK, if our European counterparts don't accept

it, we're going to make from Britain a sort

of free zone or tax haven, I

The Prime Minister of Malta, the country that's assumed the EU's

rotating presidency, spoke in sorrow and a bit of anger.

We want a fair deal for the United Kingdom, but

that deal necessarily needs to be inferior to membership.

Next, let's hear from some enthusiastic

leavers, like, I don't know, the Daily Mail?

The paper lapped it up with this adoring front page.

For Brexiteers, it was all manna from heaven.

I think today means we are a big step closer to becoming

an independent country again, with control of our own laws,

I was chuckling at some of it, to be honest, because

There were various phrases there which I've used myself again and

Do we have any of those so-called Remoaners?

There will, at the end of this deal process,

so politicians get to vote on the stitch-up, but

We take the view as Liberal Democrats that

if this process started with democracy last June,

We trusted the people with departure, we must trust them

Do we have anyone from Labour, or are you all

watching it in a small room somewhere?

Throughout the speech, there seemed to be an implied threat that

somewhere along the line, if all her optimism of a deal

with the European Union didn't work, we would move

into a low-tax, corporate taxation, bargain-basement economy on the

I think she needs to be a bit clearer about what

The Labour leader suggested he'd tell

his MPs to vote in favour of starting a Brexit process if

Parliament was given the choice, sparking a mini pre-revolt among

Finally, do we have anyone from big business here?

Of course, your all in Davos at the World Economic

Clarity, first of all, really codified what many of us have been

anticipating since the referendum result,

particularly around the

I think what we've also seen today is the Government's

willingness to put a bit of edge into the negotiating dynamic, and I

Trade negotiations are negotiations, and you have to lay out, and you

have to be pretty tough to get what you want.

Although some business people on the slopes speculated

about moving some of their operations out of Brexit Britain.

We saw there the instant reaction of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn,

but how will the party respond to the challenge posed by Brexit

Well, I'm joined now by the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott.

People know that Ukip and the Tories are for Brexit. The Lib Dems are

four remain. What is Labour for? For respecting the result of the

referendum. It was a 72% turnout, very high for an election of that

nature, and we believe you have to respect that result. You couldn't

have a situation where people like Tim Farron are saying to people,

millions of people, sorry, you got it wrong, we in London no better.

However, how the Tories go forward from here has to be subject to

parliamentary scrutiny. Is it Shadow Cabinet policy to vote for the

triggering of Article 50? Our policy is not to block Article 50. That is

what the leader was saying this morning. So are you for it? Our

policy is not to block it. You are talking about voting for it. We

don't know what the Supreme Court is going to say, and we don't know what

legislation Government will bring forward, and we don't know what

amendment we will move, but we're clear that we will not vote to block

it. OK, so you won't bow to stop it, but you could abstain? No, what we

will do... Either you vote for or against all you abstain. There are

too many unanswered questions. For instance, the position of EU

migrants working and living in this country. You may not get the answer

to that before Article 50 comes before the Commons, so what would

you do then? We are giving to amend it. We can only tell you exactly how

we will amend it when we understand what sort of legislation the

Government is putting forward, and in the course of moving those

amendments, we will ask the questions that the people of Britain

whether they voted to leave remain want answered.

When you come to a collective view, will there be a three line whip? I

can't tell you, because we have not seen the government 's legislation.

But when you see it, you will come to a collective view. Many regard

this as extremely important. Will there be a three line whip on

Labour's collective view? Because it is important, we shouldn't get ahead

of ourselves. When we see what the Supreme Court says, and crucially,

when we see what the government position is, you will hear what the

whipping is. Will shadow ministers be able to defy any three line whip

on this? That is not normally the case. But they did on an early vote

that the government introduced on Article 50. Those who voted against

it are still there. In the Blair years, you certainly couldn't defy a

three line whip. We will see what happens going forward. I remember

when the Tories were hopelessly divided over the EU. All these

Maastricht votes and an list arguments. Now it is Labour. Just

another symptom of Mr Corbyn's poor leadership. Not at all. Two thirds

voted to leave, a third to remain. We are seeking to bring the country

and the party together. We will do that by pointing out how disastrous

a Tory Brexit would be. Meanwhile, around 80 Labour MPs will defy a

three line whip. It's too early to say that. Will you publish what you

believe the negotiating goal should be? We are clear on it. We think

that the economy, jobs and living standards should be the priority.

What Theresa May is saying is that holding her party together is her

priority. She is putting party above country. Does Labour think we should

remain members of the single market? Ideally, in terms of jobs and the

economy, of course. Ritt -ish business thinks that as well. Is

Labour policy that we should remain a member of the single market?

Labour leaves that jobs and the economy comes first, and if they

come first, you would want to remain part of the single market. But to

remain a member? Jobs and the economy comes first, and to do that,

ideally, guess. So with that, comes free movement of people, the

jurisdiction of the European, and a multi-million never shipped thief.

Is Labour prepared to pay that? Money is neither here nor there.

Because the Tories will be asked to pay a lot of money... The EU has

made it clear that you cannot have... I am asking for Labour's

position. Our position is rooted in the reality, and the reality is that

you cannot have the benefits of the member of the European Union,

including being a member of the single market, without

responsibility, including free movement of people. Free movement,

is remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Is

that the Labour position? You've said that Labour wants to remain a

member of the single market. That is the price tag that comes with it.

Does Labour agree with paying that price tag? We are not pre-empting

negotiation. Our goals are protect jobs and the British economy. Is it

Labour's position that we remain a member of the customs union? Well,

if we don't, I don't see how Theresa May can keep our promises and has

unfettered access... You said Labour's position was clear. It is!

It is clear that Theresa May... I am not asking about Theresa May. Is it

Labour's position to remain a member of the customs union? It is Labour's

position to do what is right for British industry. Depending on how

the negotiations go, it may prove that coming out of the customs

union, as Theresa May has indicated she wants to do, could prove

catastrophic, and could actually destroy some of her promises. You do

accept that if we are member of the customs union, we cannot do our own

free trade deals? What free trade deals are you talking about? The

ones that Labour might want to do in the future. First, we have to

protect British jobs and British industries. If you are talking about

free trade deals with Donald Trump, the danger is that Theresa May will

get drawn into a free-trade deal with America that will open up the

NHS to American corporate... The cards are in Theresa May's hands. If

she takes us out of the single market, if she takes us out of the

customs union, we will have to deal with that. How big a crisis for

Jeremy Corbyn will be if Labour loses both by-elections in February.

I don't believe we will lose both. But if he did? I am not anticipating

that. Is Labour lost two seats in a midterm of a Tory government, would

that be business as usual? I'm not prepared to see us lose those seats,

so I will not talk about something that will not happen. Thank you.

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead,

when we'll be talking to Business Minister Margot James

about the government's new industrial strategy and that

crucial Supreme Court ruling on Brexit.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

A little later on, we'll be looking at a ?2 billion scheme to regenerate

Tottenham in north London, an unusual collaboration

between the council and a private consortium -

will there be room for people on low incomes who need to rent affordably?

Eager to hear the views on that in a moment from our guests this

week: Gavin Barwell, Conservative MP for Croydon Central,

the Minister for London and Minister for Housing.

And Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster North,

in a borough which never fails to engage our interest

First, though, to the news that Surrey County Council wants to put

up its council tax by 15 percent this coming year so it can afford

to care for the elderly, and adults and children

It's the social care 'crisis' which is coming to exercise

Should London's councils follow Surrey's lead?

Presumably, Surrey County Council had seen that they need the money

and don't have it, and they are right to try and raise

It's a decision by local people in Surrey.

The Government has put protections in there so that if

councils want to increase council tax by large amounts, they have got

to go to their electorate and get their permission.

The Government has put extra money into social care in

There are real pressures, I wouldn't deny it, but

we need to make sure that all councils learn from the best and

reform the system so that it works well.

And absolutely no problem with London councils, if they feel they

haven't got enough money, feel free to put the council tax up higher?

I don't want to see big council tax increases,

but the law allows them if they feel that's what they want

to do, and it gives people the right to say

to their council, no, we don't want to see a huge

increase in our bill, so it is a judgment

What your instinct when you hear a Conservative-run council

like Surrey saying it needs to put up the council tax by 15%?

They are not going to be lying about the

Would you support it if they need that?

Personally, I don't think council tax increases at that level

As I said, the Government has put extra money into

social care in this settlement, but it is a choice by them as

councillors and a choice of people in Surrey about whether they backed

I can imagine what Gavin would be saying

if this was a Labour council, or a Labour Government.

It is first-class trolling by Surrey council, because

strong political point, saying

to the Government that you have failed to provide for social care.

As we know, social care is not only under huge stress.

The Government since 2010 has taken ?4.5 billion

But it is actually what has happened to social care

that lies behind the current crisis in the health service.

But would you say to any London councils, we need

more for social care, feel free to put your council tax up

I think council tax is the wrong vehicle for this.

Perfectly reasonable to put up the kind of

modest inflation rises that the Government allowed for last

year, but to let local councils take the strain of what is

fundamentally not a very progressive form of tax is wrong.

The national Government should get together,

and we should be trying to have the kind of...

It doesn't cover local taxation for local services.

Why not be serious about recognising the

importance and show the commitment to dealing with it by saying this

is an income tax or hypothecated national insurance matter, not a

Karen stood on a manifesto in the last election where Labour

was not promising any extra funding for local Government.

It is not what they said at the last election.

The Government both last year and this year in the settlement

has tried to provide extra money for social care,

It is not all about money, and I think councils can do more

They are not very good at dealing with these issues.

There are challenges, which I wouldn't deny,

but we need to get a mixture of extra funding in the system, and

A lot of talk about money today, as you will see.

Now, big plans going down in north London.

Haringey Council is teaming up with a private consortium

of developers for a ?2 billion regeneration of Tottenham and Wood

It's a fairly unusual set-up in terms of scale alone.

And, at the outset, it's worrying a lot of people who are concerned

that it will drive out the poorest in the community.

After the riots here five and a half years ago,

Back then, the need for regeneration was a common refrain.

We do not gift people's houses to a private developer

and say, you can demolish these and build new houses...

On Tuesday night, a large group of campaigners

protested at a council meeting here in Haringey.

The meeting was about plans for a ?2 billion deal

which would see the council partner up with a private developer to

the Broadwater Farm and Northumberland Park estates,

You are gifting the land before the people of Northumberland Park

have been consulted about demolition.

This is a protest against the council handing over seven

council estates, 500 shops and businesses,

and the redevelopment of Wood Green town centre

A lot of these companies have been set up in recent years.

This is the biggest one, I think, that any local authority has set up.

The move by the Labour-led council is also opposed by the local branch

of Momentum activists, not far from Jeremy Corbyn's

Sam has lived on the Northumberland Park estate for more than 30 years.

We've been promised three times here that we were going to get a kitchen.

Now they say, "Oh, well, maybe we will just knock it all down."

People have brought their families up here.

It's a home, it's where you've got memories.

You've got old people who want to actually

You've got young people who feel safe here.

But that's not the concern of the council.

It's just pure profit, and nothing they say is going to make me

Residents are concerned that the changes that

are going to be made will mean that property prices go up,

and people who have lived there for 30-odd years are

no longer going to be able to afford to live there.

Can you give them any guarantees that that's not the case?

We've been very clear with residents that

affordable housing would be reprovided,

and people would be given a new home in the same area,

The problem is not unique to Haringey.

Right across London you have a estates in

need of regeneration, councils that don't have

any money, so they get involved with developers.

But that brings the risk of gentrification,

and people who've lived in an area for decades being turfed out

I think what we've done too often in the past in the country

is that local authorities and the public sector

generally have sold off land, sold off assets, and then just

This is an opportunity actually for the council

to stay really involved in shaping the area, and ensuring that,

as the area develops, the dividends go not

just to a private developer, but to the public sector, to the borough

So if they get it right, I think there's

I think it's an interesting model, and a model that other boroughs

are already exploring, and one we'll see a lot more of.

Despite all these assurances, for residents,

I have no idea what's going to happen,

where I might have to go, if I'll be able to afford it...

Sam Leggatt there, fearing for the future.

Karen Buck, a Labour authority which isn't filling some

local people with much confidence about what's going to happen through

These big regeneration schemes are daunting.

We've seen some pretty chequered examples, including the Barnett

We've seen some pretty chequered examples, including the Barnet

scheme, so I understand that people feel worried and anxious about

In Westminster, we have a couple of these big schemes going on

as well, and they haven't worked out too well.

I think regeneration clearly has to happen.

We need new house-building, to upgrade and improve the homes in

I'm not going to get involved in the micro detail

of the Haringey scheme because I don't know enough

about it, but I think that the councils are between

They want to re-provision some of the housing

stock, they want to improve the quality of some of it.

Have we moved to a consensus, a post-conflict world in

terms of housing, where you know except some of the basic principles

There's a certain amount of money, we want a

certain amount of affordable housing, but we want a lot of

This is something that has Sadiq has come out...

In consultation at the moment, I want to see such

schemes going ahead with no loss of social

housing, because that is a

It is a genuine worry that when the lower cost

homeownership properties, the leasehold properties and so

forth, when they are rebuilt, it will often be at a higher value.

But of local authorities need to build than

they need to improve their stock, and the Government isn't funding any

money for them, they don't have that many choices.

Have the details of this scheme come across your desk?

Not yet, but I think there are likely to be

The Government is giving money to estate regeneration.

I think they are likely to bid for some of that

In effect, the council has retained a kind of Freehold, I

But the profits are being divided equally as

Why can't the council keep the land but put out the contract to

build these homes with more money from you guys to ensure there is

I think it makes great sense to try to bring in

You can get more done, given the amount of Government

The problem here, it seems to me, is making

sure that you take the

We desperately need more homes in London.

I think also it's good to have a mixture of different types

of housing together in one area, so

But what you've got to do if you are a

council taking forward the schemes is, you've

got to engage with the

I think you showed a moving film there, with

people saying, I don't know if I will still

Do you want to get involved in this guarantee and say, I want you to

make sure that no tenant is moved out or changes the conditions of

They stay in the same kind of property?

We have published our guidance to councils, and we say

that engagement right at the start of the process with the people that

I think it's important that people who want

to stay in an area can do

There was a scheme recently in Southwark which failed on the CPO

because they weren't able to reassure some of the leaseholders

People have roots in these communities, and if

they are forced to move because prices, they often can't stay

anywhere that area, so you got to get those details right.

But the principle that we desperately need

more homes in London, and that some of these estates offer an

opportunity to renovate what is there and provide new housing...

So he approves of this kind of model -

I think absolutely that the consultation is critical.

I think that the guarantee that people

should be able to return to their area on equivalent tenancy and

I think it's vital we keep not just social housing...

Can I just check on this - you don't make it

essential that they return at an equal level.

You're not interfering at that level, are you?

Our clear advice is that people should have,

and not everyone will want to return to the same place...

But they want to stay in the same area.

People might want to change what they have.

But if people do want to return to that community in whatever kind of

housing, we should be trying to support that.

What I want is the schemes to go forward as quickly as

possible, and the key to that is not to have this kind of resistance.

When you get people concerned, it delays the process and we don't get

The local connection doesn't apply to Westminster,

but I will take that up separately with Gavin.

Yes, you can talk after the recording.

Now - "London's stalling" is the title of the London Assembly

report out this week which highlights the economic

impact of the worsening congestion in the capital.

There are calls for modifications to the congestion charge

in the short-term, and the suggestion that we need

to move to more sophisticated road-pricing in the long term.

Congestion in the capital - it's getting worse.

According to TfL figures published last month, the

average speed of traffic in central London has fallen to 7.8 mph.

The congestion charge was introduced in

It will take some finessing, but I do think congestion charge is going

It's caused a reduction in private car

usage, but that's been cancelled out by the rise in delivery and private

hire vehicles, and more space is being taken up by cycle lanes.

According to a new report by the London Assembly

Transport Committee, congestion is costing London ?5.5

So the committee is recommending the Mayor looks into

extending road pricing throughout London, not just the centre.

It should also be more targeted so road

users pay more for using busier roads at busy times.

But is a more sophisticated congestion charge

The current technology is more than a decade old, and one

expert says it could take some time to update it.

The form of road charging that the committee is

talking about requires the authority to know not just when you are

driving but where you are driving and how far.

So they are going to need all the things that basically

your car knows about itself, with modern telemetry,

but at the moment, your car keeps that knowledge to

If that knowledge is going to be shared with Transport For

London, you, the driver, need to know that it is accurate,

safe and fair, and that's going to require a

new transmission system, a new billing system -

that could cost a lot of money - and a way of making sure

that your personal privacy is protected.

And getting the money and the technology may take even longer

than it does to drive through London at rush-hour.

I'm joined by the chair of the London Assembly

Transport Committee, which authored the report,

Liberal Democrat assembly member Caroline Pidgeon.

A little bit more detail about potential changes to

Currently it's not fit for purpose, and you only have to look

We have gridlock on our streets, and not just in the

centre, more and more, across the whole capital.

Would you extend the zone for starters?

In the short term, the congestion charge, the

So, rather than a flat rate, you could

Would you put it back out to the Western

extension, which I think the Liberal Democrats once opposed?

As a committee, we have said we would

like to focus in the short term on reforming

make it fit for purpose so that we don't encourage people to drive

around the zone the whole day and just play one fee.

around the zone the whole day and just pay one fee.

In the longer term, to tackle congestion, the

Mayor needs to look at road pricing, needs to look at tackling congestion

If you are an occasional car user at the

weekend, you won't really be penalised, but if you insist on

using your card day after day across London,

using your car day after day across London, you are going

And we have to do something, because the cost to

I will come on to that in a second, but on

the congestion charge, could you do variable rates on that?

In different parts of London, is that for you

That's one of the things you could look at.

We have said to the Mayor, you have to look at this

as an option as part of your transport strategy.

Work with the boroughs, work with groups to find a

system that works, but the status quo was not an option.

And we have also suggested other things, like

changing night-time deliveries and also stopping people

having personal deliveries to their workplace.

In certain places, we should be looking at that.

There's a reason historically why we don't do that.

You'd have to work with residents, but vehicles are quieter now, and

Also look at personal deliveries, people

having online shopping delivered to their workplace.

How would you distinguish between that stuff that

was arriving in a delivery van for a workplace which was for work?

There's so many vehicles going round.

There has been a 20% increase in vans on our roads

taking online deliveries, so we're saying actually, if Transport For

London worked and opened up click and collect at their tube stations,

you could have any parcel delivered there, pick it up on the way home.

You wouldn't clog up the train with it, but actually,

it would relieve some of that pressure in central

You've got to do something, and that's why we've

given the Mayor a range of really bold options.

Let's pick up on the road pricing thing.

Just briefly, presumably the technology might be

there now, but is the cost just ridiculously stratospheric?

We think, with the Mayor bringing in the ultralow emissions zone, he

needs to make sure the technology he is bringing in there can also be

We believe it is there, and he could use that as

Gavin, what do you feel about the issue of road pricing?

Should we stay as we are with the congestion

I agree with Caroline - doing nothing is not an

In terms of the health impact on Londoners and also the

economic impact on London, we can't just allow this congestion problem

I think we need to look at a range of solutions.

That could certainly be about looking at

how we evolve the policy the Mayor has on congestion charge.

He has freedom to look at things already

You wouldn't rule out at this stage if

he feels he needs to extend it west else?

What we're doing needs to be driven by the evidence.

We need to look at where the congestion

They are not uniform across London, so if

it's evidence-driven, I think we should look at it

But I would also say it shouldn't just be about penalising

There are things we can do to improve our road network.

In my borough, the problems are often a

key pinch points that you could address.

What do you think about the principle of road pricing,

which could be variable amounts, with the technology, depending on

which road you are using and at what time.

Right now, I am not attracted to that.

I think there are other things you can do to address the

We could look at adapting the congestion charge, we could look

at technology, and I think we can look at improvements to pinch points

Caroline and her committee are right to provoke a

From a Government point of view, we agree

that congestion on London's roads is a serious

people's health and in terms of our economy.

He raises a point about provoking debate.

What is going to come of this report, and what do you

The Mayor is developing his transport

strategy, so we hope he looks at putting it in his strategy,

but also influencing Government going

This isn't just all the evidence we had.

We also did a survey of 1000 Londoners, and 50% of

them said they would support some sort of road pricing.

Two thirds said they would change their

You never objected and supported Ken Livingstone when he wanted to extend

the congestion charge - do you think that was a mistake

No, I think the congestion charge was an incredibly brave thing

I think what we want to do, and this was very much the case,

even in 2003 when it was coming in, where you would look to having a

smarter, more flexible scheme as the technology

Of course, Caroline is completely right

- there will be times and places where you might want to discourage

We were talking ten years ago that it might

just be the beginning of something more sophisticated.

Don't you want to be the type of administration

that starts a look at this seriously?

The Mayor has a lot of power to do this.

He is not asking, as far as I can see...

We want to know you are not going to object to

As I said, I want to be driven by the evidence, and I'd like to see

a solution that looks at trying to improve

what technology can do, but also looking at how weird that policy

Caroline, thank you very much for coming in.

Now, it's time for the rest of the political news in 60 seconds.

The Mayor Sadiq Khan has won the safety of Londoners could be put

at risk if the Government cuts funding for the Metropolitan

If it's the case that the Government makes any further cuts in our budget

than we have already been told about, we cannot keep

Residents in Winchester Avenue, West London, have discovered

that their road has been linked to a possible clearance

in a Government report looking at the impact of a third

The road runs next to the M4 and could be demolished to allow

the widening of the motorway bringing traffic in

The Government should at least be coming out with its detailed

road network proposals, and that is indeed what I've called

A report from the London assembly police and crime committee has said

Notting Hill Carnival, which attracts 1 million visitors

a year, poses a real risk to public safety.

The committee said overcrowding and the rise in violent crime

In a controversial departure from normal practice, we won't deal with

those issues. Ask the question about housing. We were talking about the

need to let people return to communities. Westminster Council

announced they were going to start discharging the homelessness duties

outside of London, as far as the Midlands. I would like to see the

Government tell them they can't do that. We have already said to

councils that they should place locally in the borough where

possible. We need -- what you're talking about is evidence of the

housing problem that we've got, that for 30 or 40 years we haven't built

enough homes. Are they wrong to do what they are doing in Westminster?

We have to stop that. We have given a record level of funding for

affordable housing. You will keep an eye on it and may make a ruling? The

long-term solution is to get more housing built so councils don't

have to do this. Thank you to you both.

What exactly is the government's industrial strategy?

Will ministers lose their supreme court battle over Brexit, and,

Well, tomorrow Theresa May is launching the government's

industrial strategy - and to talk about that we're joined

by the Business Minister, Margot James - welcome to the show.

When you look at what has already been released in advance of the

Prime Minister's statement, it was embargoed for last night, it's not

really an industrial strategy, it's just another skills strategy, of

which we have had about six since the war, and our skills training is

among the worst in Western Europe? There will be plenty more to be

announced tomorrow in what is really a discussion document in the

preparation of an industrial strategy which we intend to launch

properly later in the year. Let's look at skills. You are allocating

117 of funding to establish institutes of technology. How many?

The exact number is to be agreed, but the spend is there, and it will

be on top of what we are doing to the university, technical

colleges... How many were lit bio create? We don't know exactly, but

we want to put them in areas where young people are performing under

the national average. But if you don't know how many, what is the

basis of 170 million? That is the amount the Treasury have released.

The something that is very important, we are agreed we need to

devote more resources to vocational training and get it on a par with

academic qualifications. I looked on the website of my old university,

the University of Glasgow, the Russell group universities. Its

spending budget every year is over 600 million. That's one University.

And yet you have a mere 170 million foreign unspecified number of

institutes of technology. It hasn't got equality with the academics? You

have to remember that just as you have quoted figures from Glasgow

University there are further education colleges all over the

country. The government is already spending on 16 to 19-year-olds. But

also, we are going to be adding... This is new money that is all to the

good, because we are already spending a lot. We have already

created 2 million more apprentices since 2010. That many are not in

what we would call the stem skills, and a lot come nowhere near what the

Dutch, Germans and Austrians would have. I'm not clear how another 170

million would do. You said it is more than skills. In what way is

this industrial strategy different from what Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne

did before? It's different because it is involving every single

government department, and bringing together everything that government

does in a bid to make Britain more competitive as it disengages from

the European Union. That is what the last Labour government did. They

will much more targeted interventions. Under the Labour

government, the auto industry got some benefit. A few more sectors

were broached under the coalition government. This is all about

communities all over the country, some of whom have fallen behind in

terms of wage growth and good jobs. The Prime Minister has already

announced 2 billion as a research and development priority in specific

technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, medical technology,

satellites... So you are doing what has been done before. There is

nothing new about this. Wait until tomorrow, because there will be some

new strands emerging. It is the beginning of the dialogue with

industry and with workers, and the responses will be invited up until

April. That will inform a wider strategy that goes beyond skills. I

have moved on to beyond them. I'm slightly puzzled as to how the

government knows where to invest in robotics, when it can't even provide

the NHS with a decent IT system. Discuss. I have to say I find it

bizarre that the government is making an announcement about an

amount of money and don't know where it's going. This is typical of all

governments over all political shoes, which is total disregard for

technical education, so different from Germany, who actually invest in

the technological side. Germany has a long history. We want to emulate

some of the best of what German companies do. Siemens sponsor

primary schools, for example. We want to get a dialogue on with

business. We don't want to decide where this money is going. By the

way, it was 4.7 billion that the government has agreed to invest in

science and research, which is the most significant increase in

decades. Can you remind us what happened in Northern Ireland, when

the government invested money in state-of-the-art technology for

energy? No one needs to be reminded of that, and that is not what we are

doing. We are inviting business and industry to advise where that money

is best spent. That's very different from government deciding that a

particular technology is for the future. The government's chief

scientific adviser has determined that we will invest a huge amount in

battery technology, which should benefit the electric car industry,

and... This is taxpayers' money. Who gets it? Ultimately, business will

get it, but often only when there is a considerable amount of private

sector finance also drawn in. But who is held to account? Various

government departments at local authorities will hold this list to

account. A lot of it is about releasing private capital as well.

Thank you very much. This week, the Supreme Court, I think we know the

ruling is coming on Tuesday. And the expectation is that the judges will

say Parliament will have to vote to trigger. Is this all much ado about

nothing? Parliament will vote to trigger, and the government will win

in the Lords and the Commons by substantial majorities, and it will

be triggered? Completely. We've known that. Parliament is voted.

Everyone is pretty confident that the Supreme Court will uphold the

High Court's decision and say it has to go to MPs. There will be a bit of

toing and froing among MPs on amendments. You heard Diane Abbott's

slightly car crash interview there. The Lib Dems may throw something in,

but we will trigger Article 50 by the end of March. If it also says

that the roll of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast should be picked up,

that could complicate matters. Absolutely. That could delay the

planned triggering of Article 50 before the end of March. Not what

they say about the Westminster Parliament, because it is clear that

it was. I never understood the furore about that original judgment,

because every MP made it clear they wouldn't block it. Even though Diane

Abbott was evasive on several fronts, she said they wouldn't block

it. You are right, if they give a vote, or give some authorisation for

the Scottish Parliament and other devolved assemblies, that might

delay the whole sequence. That is the only significant thing to watch

out for. Watch out on Tuesday. Mrs May goes to Washington. It will be

another movie in the making! I would suggest that she has a tricky line

to follow. She has got to be seen to be taking advantage of the fact that

there is a very pro-British, pro-Brexit president in the Oval

Office, who I am told is prepared to expend political capital on this.

But on the other hand, to make sure that she is not what we used to call

Mr Blair, George Bush's poodle. It is very difficult, and who would not

want to be a fly on the wall in that meeting! I can't think of anyone in

the world who would despise Mr Trump more than Mrs May, and for him, he

dislikes any woman who does not look like a supermodel, no disrespected

Mrs May. Most of it is actually anti-EU, and I think we should

capitalise it. Let's get the Queen to earn her money, roll out the red

carpet, invite him to dinner, spend the night, what ever we need...

Trump at Balmoral! Here is the issue, because the agenda is, as we

heard from Ted Malloch earlier, that this is not an administration that

has much time for the EU, EU integration or Germany. I think

Germany will be the second biggest loser to begin with. They will not

even give a date for Angela Merkel to meet the president. This is an

opportunity for Mrs May... It is a huge. It could sideline talks of the

punishment beating from Germany. The Trump presidency has completely

changed the field on Brexit. Along came Donald Trump, and Theresa May

has this incredible opportunity here. Not of her making, but she has

played her cards well. To an officially be the EU emissary to

Washington, to get some sort of broker going. That gives us huge

extra leveraged in the Brexit negotiations. People around the

world think Germany as a currency manipulator, that it is benefiting

from an underpriced euro, hence the huge surplus it runs of America, and

they think it is disgraceful that a country that runs a massive budget

surplus spends only 1.2% of its GDP on defence, and America runs a

massive deficit and needs to spend a lot more. He's going for Germany.

And what a massive shift. I think Obama was quite open, in a farewell

interview, that he felt closer to Merkel than any other European

leader. And Jamie kind of reflected that in our discussion. Yes, that's

very interesting discussion. I think she was the last person he spoke to

in the White House, Obama. And now you are getting the onslaught from

Trump. This Thatcher- Reagan imagery is dangerous, though. Blair was

hypnotised by it and was too scared to criticise Bush, because he wanted

to be seen in that light, and we know where that led. Cameron

similarly with Obama, which presented him with problems, as

Obama didn't regard him as his number one pin up in Europe. I would

put a note of caution in there about the Thatcher - Reagan parallel.

Everything Trump is doing now is different from before, so Mrs May

should not have any of these previous relationships in her mind.

That is not entirely true. Donald Trump aches to be the new Ronald

Reagan. He may be impeached first! He sees her as the new Margaret

Thatcher, and that may her leveraged with him. Thank you.

We'll be back here at the same time next week, and you can catch up

on all the latest political news on the Daily Politics,

In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday,

It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,

it feels much more violent, dark and exciting.

Join Michael Buerk as he explores the dishes fit for kings and queens.

When it comes to extravagance, few monarchs can compete with George IV.