29/01/2017 Sunday Politics London


29/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:07.:01:11.

mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.

:01:12.:01:13.

The President says "it's working out very nicely"

:01:14.:01:15.

After getting too close to comfort for some to the US President,

:01:16.:01:19.

Theresa May refuses to condemn his refugee ban despite being asked

:01:20.:01:22.

about it three times at a press conference.

:01:23.:01:24.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:25.:01:26.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:27.:01:28.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:29.:01:31.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:32.:01:34.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:35.:01:36.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:37.:01:38.

And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:39.:01:40.

panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:45.:01:47.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:48.:01:50.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

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Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:01:57.:01:59.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:02:00.:02:03.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:04.:02:06.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

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Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:12.:02:15.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:16.:02:24.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:25.:02:26.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:27.:02:30.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:31.:02:36.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:37.:02:40.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

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The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:44.:02:49.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:50.:02:52.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

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Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:55.:03:09.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:10.:03:12.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:13.:03:14.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

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She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:21.:03:25.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:26.:03:29.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:30.:03:32.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:33.:03:36.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:37.:03:39.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:40.:03:42.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

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The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:46.:03:47.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:48.:03:51.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:52.:04:03.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:04.:04:12.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:13.:04:15.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:16.:04:19.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:20.:04:26.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:27.:04:30.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:31.:04:37.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:38.:04:41.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:42.:04:45.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:46.:04:51.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:52.:04:54.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:55.:04:57.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:04:58.:05:01.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:02.:05:06.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:07.:05:09.

wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:10.:05:13.

moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:14.:05:18.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

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hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:23.:05:30.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:31.:05:33.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:34.:05:37.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

:05:38.:05:40.

have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

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Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

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understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

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the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:51.:05:54.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

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temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:05:59.:06:04.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:05.:06:09.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

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temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

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wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

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and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

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It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

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arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:32.:06:36.

been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

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I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:42.:06:45.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:46.:06:59.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:07:00.:07:04.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:05.:07:09.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:10.:07:12.

this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

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because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:17.:07:19.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

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you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:24.:07:30.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:31.:07:33.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:34.:07:37.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

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country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:41.:07:46.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:47.:07:50.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:51.:07:54.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

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should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:07:59.:08:01.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

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Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:08.:08:10.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:11.:08:15.

believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:16.:08:20.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

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number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:25.:08:28.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:29.:08:31.

of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

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where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:37.:08:39.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

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Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:51.:08:56.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:08:57.:09:00.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:01.:09:05.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:06.:09:10.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:11.:09:15.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:16.:09:21.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:22.:09:25.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:26.:09:34.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:35.:09:38.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:39.:09:42.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:43.:09:46.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:47.:09:49.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

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does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:55.:09:59.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:00.:10:03.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:04.:10:08.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:09.:10:13.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:14.:10:16.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:17.:10:22.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:23.:10:25.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:26.:10:30.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:31.:10:36.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:37.:10:39.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:40.:10:45.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:46.:10:49.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:50.:10:55.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:10:56.:10:59.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:00.:11:03.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:04.:11:11.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:12.:11:15.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:16.:11:20.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:21.:11:23.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:24.:11:26.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:27.:11:36.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:37.:11:41.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:42.:11:46.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

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with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:53.:11:56.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:11:57.:12:01.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:02.:12:07.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:08.:12:11.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:12.:12:17.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:18.:12:21.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:22.:12:27.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:28.:12:31.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:32.:12:35.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:36.:12:39.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

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something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:44.:12:48.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:49.:12:52.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:53.:12:57.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:12:58.:13:01.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:02.:13:04.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:05.:13:08.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:09.:13:12.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:13.:13:16.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:17.:13:20.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:21.:13:24.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:25.:13:29.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:30.:13:33.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:34.:13:36.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:37.:13:42.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:43.:13:44.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:45.:13:49.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:50.:13:51.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:52.:13:54.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:55.:13:56.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:13:57.:13:58.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:13:59.:14:00.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:01.:14:03.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:04.:14:05.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:06.:14:09.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:10.:14:12.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:13.:14:20.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:21.:14:24.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:25.:14:27.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:28.:14:33.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:34.:14:35.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:36.:14:40.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:41.:14:45.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:46.:14:47.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:48.:14:50.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:51.:14:56.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:14:57.:14:58.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:14:59.:15:01.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

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Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:05.:15:20.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

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United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

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appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

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was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:34.:15:37.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:38.:15:45.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:46.:15:51.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:52.:15:57.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:15:58.:16:00.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

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look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:07.:16:10.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:11.:16:15.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:16.:16:20.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:21.:16:23.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:24.:16:29.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:30.:16:34.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:35.:16:38.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:39.:16:42.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:43.:16:46.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:47.:16:53.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:54.:17:01.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

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comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

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policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:10.:17:14.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:15.:17:17.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:18.:17:27.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:28.:17:32.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:33.:17:36.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:37.:17:41.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:42.:17:44.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:45.:17:48.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:49.:17:54.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:55.:17:58.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:17:59.:18:03.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:04.:18:07.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:08.:18:11.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:12.:18:22.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:23.:18:29.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:30.:18:33.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:34.:18:36.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:37.:18:42.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:43.:18:45.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:46.:18:52.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:53.:18:57.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:18:58.:19:01.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:02.:19:04.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:05.:19:11.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:12.:19:14.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:15.:19:19.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:20.:19:22.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:23.:19:25.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:26.:19:31.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:32.:19:37.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:38.:19:42.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:43.:19:46.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:47.:19:51.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:52.:19:55.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:56.:20:02.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:03.:20:08.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:09.:20:14.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:15.:20:18.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:19.:20:22.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:23.:20:27.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:28.:20:31.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:32.:20:35.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:36.:20:39.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:40.:20:44.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:45.:20:50.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:51.:20:54.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:55.:20:58.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:20:59.:21:03.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:04.:21:08.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:09.:21:13.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:14.:21:16.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:17.:21:20.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:21.:21:24.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:25.:21:29.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:30.:21:35.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:36.:21:39.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:40.:21:43.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:44.:21:51.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:52.:21:54.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:55.:21:59.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:22:00.:22:03.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:04.:22:07.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:08.:22:10.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:11.:22:17.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:18.:22:21.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:22.:22:25.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:26.:22:29.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:30.:22:34.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:35.:22:37.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:38.:22:44.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:45.:22:48.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:49.:22:52.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:53.:22:58.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:22:59.:23:02.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:03.:23:08.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:09.:23:12.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:13.:23:17.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:18.:23:21.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:22.:23:24.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:25.:23:29.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:30.:23:33.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:34.:23:37.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:38.:23:41.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:42.:23:46.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:47.:23:51.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:52.:23:56.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:23:57.:24:00.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:01.:24:05.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:06.:24:09.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:10.:24:14.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:15.:24:17.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:18.:24:22.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:23.:24:27.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:28.:24:31.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:32.:24:36.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:37.:24:40.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:41.:24:47.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:48.:24:56.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:57.:25:00.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:01.:25:04.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:05.:25:10.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:11.:25:15.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:16.:25:19.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:20.:25:22.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:23.:25:23.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:24.:25:25.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:26.:25:28.

be talking to our political panel. First though, the Sunday

:25:29.:25:32.

Politics where you are. We've got a shorter segment

:25:33.:25:41.

for you this week, but ready to pack a lot in are our guests

:25:42.:25:48.

Clive Efford, Labour MP for Eltham, and Chris Philp, Conservative MP

:25:49.:25:56.

for Croydon South. Let's kick off with proposals

:25:57.:25:58.

to devolve more financial powers to the Mayor

:25:59.:26:02.

and the capital's boroughs. The suggestions are contained

:26:03.:26:04.

in the second report of the London Finance

:26:05.:26:07.

Commission, out this week. The first report, you may remember,

:26:08.:26:09.

happened under Mayor Boris Johnson. This one's gone further in what it's

:26:10.:26:12.

asking for: retention of income tax, maybe a share of VAT,

:26:13.:26:15.

as well as control of property taxes And it recommends looking

:26:16.:26:18.

at new taxes like a London tourism The commission chair

:26:19.:26:22.

is Tony Travers. What we're recommending that's

:26:23.:26:26.

different this time is that in the spirit of further devolution,

:26:27.:26:28.

which the Government itself has been talking about,

:26:29.:26:30.

the possibility of greater health devolution, skills and further

:26:31.:26:32.

education, possibly more transport devolution and so on,

:26:33.:26:36.

that you could begin not only to devolve property

:26:37.:26:38.

taxes fully to London, but go beyond that and take part

:26:39.:26:43.

of income tax or VAT and assign part That wouldn't mean that

:26:44.:26:47.

London set the tax rates, but they would keep part

:26:48.:26:54.

of the yield that was generated here and could therefore drive up

:26:55.:26:57.

the yield by pursuing particular economic policies that would make

:26:58.:27:00.

the City grow faster and therefore, London's boroughs and

:27:01.:27:02.

the mayor would keep more Chris Philp, an awful lot of detail

:27:03.:27:20.

in there but in principle anything you hear in there you wouldn't go

:27:21.:27:25.

and do, or do you guard against any of this stuff? I think the idea of

:27:26.:27:29.

devolution to London is a good idea, the one idea I didn't hear in the

:27:30.:27:33.

film was the idea of letting London keep some of its business rates or

:27:34.:27:43.

keep... What about some of the other ones income tax, VAT, it is getting

:27:44.:27:47.

a portion of it that is raised in London. I think the idea is to have

:27:48.:27:50.

a starting point that is fiscally neutral, and of some of these taxes

:27:51.:27:55.

grow, meaning the economy is growing, they generate more

:27:56.:27:57.

receipts, London would keep that growth as an incentive to London to

:27:58.:28:02.

help London grow. For me, business rates is the most sensible one

:28:03.:28:06.

because it is directly linked to encouraging business. The Chancellor

:28:07.:28:19.

has said that in the budget coming up this spring, he will be making a

:28:20.:28:22.

financial devolution offer to London and the Mayor of London, and I would

:28:23.:28:24.

certainly support that, particularly in this area of business rates.

:28:25.:28:28.

Clive Efford comedy you sign up to London has taken a big hit as a

:28:29.:28:32.

result of the Government's changes but I think this discussion is

:28:33.:28:37.

overdue because, I mean I know it is becoming a cliche to say in this

:28:38.:28:41.

post Brexit period, but London is a huge shop window for Britain, and

:28:42.:28:47.

what this report is talking about is giving London the resources to

:28:48.:28:52.

generate that economic activity that is so vital for the whole country,

:28:53.:28:58.

and not cutting off the important redistribution of taxes from the

:28:59.:29:03.

economic activity that is concentrated around London and the

:29:04.:29:06.

south-east. That is an important thing and it gives London the

:29:07.:29:10.

devolved power to be able to make those decisions that will drive that

:29:11.:29:15.

forwards. What do you say about tourism tax though, it dangerous? It

:29:16.:29:21.

has to be looked up, but I would be very careful about how we do it

:29:22.:29:25.

because we already have a very high rate of VAT compared with our

:29:26.:29:28.

European competitors, and what we want is more tourism to come here. I

:29:29.:29:35.

would look at possibly the Government on areas like hospitality

:29:36.:29:38.

and things like that, looking to be more competitive with their European

:29:39.:29:43.

partners, for instance it is half the rate in France, and bring more

:29:44.:29:49.

tourism in. To be clear from you, Chris, do you believe the Government

:29:50.:29:53.

is committed to going anywhere near some of this stuff? Stamp duty, for

:29:54.:29:58.

instance, you know how much is raised in the capital, why isn't a

:29:59.:30:02.

lot more of that retained? The list we have seen in the report is a very

:30:03.:30:07.

long list, there is a balance to strike so I think it's right London

:30:08.:30:10.

gets more control of its tax base, so things like business rates make

:30:11.:30:16.

sense. If you push it too far, as Clive was saying, you impede the

:30:17.:30:18.

Government's ability to help out other parts of the country, which do

:30:19.:30:23.

need help. It would also impede London and the vital infrastructure.

:30:24.:30:32.

He has said he will do this. You have to strike a balance between

:30:33.:30:37.

letting London keep a larger proportion of taxes raised here.

:30:38.:30:41.

That is right. But at the same time, you have to give the government

:30:42.:30:44.

financial firepower to look after the whole of the UK. As a London MP,

:30:45.:30:48.

I do want to see the balance shift towards London and I am confident

:30:49.:30:51.

that we will see that in spring budget.

:30:52.:30:54.

Talking of money, the mayor's budget proposals for next year

:30:55.:30:57.

are currently being pored over at City Hall.

:30:58.:30:59.

And there's been more talk about whether Sadiq Khan

:31:00.:31:01.

was as clear as he might have been when he promised to freeze fares.

:31:02.:31:04.

It did not, as it turned out, mean keeping all fares down,

:31:05.:31:07.

as those using trains and travelcards have found out.

:31:08.:31:09.

Back when he was running for office last year, this

:31:10.:31:14.

I've got a fully funded package to freeze fares...

:31:15.:31:17.

Over four years, so Londoners won't pay a penny more...

:31:18.:31:20.

But after winning the keys to City Hall, he clarified

:31:21.:31:27.

that the freeze would only apply to single fares and not travelcards.

:31:28.:31:32.

Travelcards cover all public transport in London,

:31:33.:31:43.

including suburban rail services, which are run by private companies

:31:44.:31:45.

The fares on those lines are set by the Government and this

:31:46.:31:52.

So, the mayor says, it's out of his hands.

:31:53.:31:55.

That, however, is not necessarily the impression that people got

:31:56.:31:58.

For example, in an article about his fares freeze,

:31:59.:32:02.

In fact, it now turns out that even

:32:03.:32:15.

Transport for London had assumed that meant a freeze in travelcards.

:32:16.:32:18.

Details emerged last week, when the MayorWatch blog got hold

:32:19.:32:21.

of a briefing document written by TfL, detailing how they had built

:32:22.:32:24.

a travelcard freeze into their costings of the policy.

:32:25.:32:28.

People did not accidentally come away with the impression

:32:29.:32:31.

that Sadiq was talking about freezing travelcards.

:32:32.:32:34.

He wrote an article in the Evening Standard

:32:35.:32:36.

where he cited the rising cost of travelcards, the sacrifices

:32:37.:32:38.

people needed to make on their food bills,

:32:39.:32:40.

their ability to feed their kids, the pressure caused

:32:41.:32:42.

He raised it repeatedly, the cost of travelcards

:32:43.:32:45.

and the impact it had on Londoners' income and disposable income.

:32:46.:32:48.

He engineered a situation where people thought that the fares

:32:49.:32:50.

freeze would encompass all transport fares in London, and it doesn't.

:32:51.:32:55.

And he's pulled away from it saying he didn't have the power,

:32:56.:32:58.

and this document proves that not only did he have the power

:32:59.:33:01.

and the money, but even people at Transport for London,

:33:02.:33:03.

who are being paid to monitor his manifesto,

:33:04.:33:06.

thought that a freeze on travelcards was something he had in mind.

:33:07.:33:09.

And the fact that TfL had put a figure on the cost of freezing

:33:10.:33:12.

travelcards suggests to some that despite by what the mayor says,

:33:13.:33:16.

He could make that decision and choose to use his

:33:17.:33:22.

transport funding to freeze or fares for Londoners.

:33:23.:33:24.

He was given advice on how much it would cost and how

:33:25.:33:31.

Questions have also been asked about a policy

:33:32.:33:34.

that appears on Sadiq.London, Mr Khan's website from when he was

:33:35.:33:38.

campaigning for office. It clearly says that bus fares would not be

:33:39.:33:41.

frozen in his first year in office, but cut, and that hasn't happened.

:33:42.:33:49.

In fact, that's not in the manifesto.

:33:50.:33:50.

I think that was in a sort of discussion paper

:33:51.:33:53.

When the mayor finally published his manifesto,

:33:54.:33:56.

it was very clear about freezing fares and going for a hopper ticket.

:33:57.:34:01.

The front page of the City Hall website clearly states

:34:02.:34:04.

that the mayor is freezing fares in 2017, and then gives

:34:05.:34:06.

details about exactly how it's going to apply.

:34:07.:34:09.

But it won't stop some arguing that there should have been this

:34:10.:34:12.

Do you think he should have been clearer, Clive? Let's be clear. He

:34:13.:34:28.

has frozen the fares for every feather which he receives the fare

:34:29.:34:32.

box. So all the fares he has control over, he has frozen in line with his

:34:33.:34:36.

promise. But he should have been clear that it is all fares. Even

:34:37.:34:43.

with travelcards, when he said about people struggling to say, he then

:34:44.:34:50.

didn't say we are going to freeze them. The challenge here is for the

:34:51.:34:55.

Government, who control the rail fares, to take the lead from the

:34:56.:34:58.

Mayor of London and freeze the fares. We are getting an appalling

:34:59.:35:04.

service. Don't forget, the Conservative mayoral candidate went

:35:05.:35:07.

into the mayoral election saying they were going to put London's

:35:08.:35:12.

fares up by 70%. But should the Labour candidate have been clear

:35:13.:35:17.

that he was only going to put up TfL fares? He can only put up the fares

:35:18.:35:22.

for which he has the powers of control. But Transport for London

:35:23.:35:26.

had the impression that he meant all fares as well. The figure that has

:35:27.:35:32.

been quoted is the figure that it would have cost TfL, had the

:35:33.:35:35.

Government frozen fares in line with the Mayor's freeze on fares. That is

:35:36.:35:40.

the 600 million figure that is being bandied around. So it is a bit

:35:41.:35:43.

dishonest to suggest that that figure would cover the cost of

:35:44.:35:45.

subsidising fares of private rail providers. Those be clear. Sadiq

:35:46.:35:52.

Khan grossly misled Londoners. What he said during the mayoral election

:35:53.:35:56.

campaign, he said, no ifs, no buts, no one will pay a penny more.

:35:57.:36:01.

Nothing about travelcards or single fares. No one will pay a penny more

:36:02.:36:05.

is what he said. It is not true. But he has gone on after the mayoral

:36:06.:36:09.

election, where he is trying to excuse what he has done. He claimed

:36:10.:36:12.

he didn't have the power over these other fares. He claimed it was

:36:13.:36:13.

outside of his power to do a complete their freeze.

:36:14.:36:31.

He has also made it clear since then that he knows that theoretically, he

:36:32.:36:33.

could pay. Why didn't you point this out before the election? We all

:36:34.:36:36.

pointed out that what he was promising was undeliverable, and he

:36:37.:36:38.

got into a strap about it. For what reason? For financial reasons. He

:36:39.:36:41.

said after the election that he didn't have the power to do a

:36:42.:36:43.

complete freeze. This request by London travel watch shows that TfL

:36:44.:36:47.

gave him advice that it was possible. It shows it can be done,

:36:48.:36:51.

because it was done with the help of government money which froze the

:36:52.:36:56.

rail element the previous year. He couldn't assume that that element is

:36:57.:37:01.

going to be there, could he? If he had chosen to, he could have used

:37:02.:37:05.

City Hall money to have a complete their freeze. That is what the TfL

:37:06.:37:09.

paper advised him he could do. He chose not to do with that. He chose

:37:10.:37:15.

not to keep his promise and tried to cover it up by claiming it was

:37:16.:37:19.

impossible. Was he being disingenuous or was he ignorant when

:37:20.:37:24.

he covered it up? I can't speak for whether he was ignorant on it, but

:37:25.:37:27.

it is evident that when you make a promise about freezing fares, you

:37:28.:37:31.

can only freeze those over which you have control. The increase on rail

:37:32.:37:35.

cards is a government decision. It is for the Government to follow the

:37:36.:37:38.

lead of the London mayor and freeze fares. The overground service is

:37:39.:37:49.

part of TfL and it is frozen. If the Government were to hand over the

:37:50.:37:52.

franchises of suburban rail to Mayor Khan, those fares would be frozen.

:37:53.:38:01.

So you go and bring your friend. Sadiq Khan has now accepted he could

:38:02.:38:05.

have frozen these fares if he had chosen to spend City Hall money on

:38:06.:38:07.

it. He chose to break his promise. Now it's time for the rest

:38:08.:38:09.

of the political news in 60 seconds. The cost of West Ham's London

:38:10.:38:20.

stadium, almost entirely paid for by the taxpayer,

:38:21.:38:23.

is to be investigated by City Hall. Mayor Sadiq Khan said "We need

:38:24.:38:25.

to find out how on earth the transformation costs

:38:26.:38:28.

were allowed to skyrocket, whether appropriate checks were made

:38:29.:38:30.

before key decisions were made." The cost of the building has already

:38:31.:38:32.

reached more than ?753 million. Staying with football,

:38:33.:38:39.

and Lewisham Council has abandoned the controversial compulsory

:38:40.:38:41.

purchase of land around Millwall FC had argued

:38:42.:38:43.

the development could Lewisham Council said,

:38:44.:38:48.

"Any decision that the council may take in the future will be

:38:49.:38:52.

a wholly new decision." A very high air pollution warning

:38:53.:38:58.

has been issued for London for the first time under

:38:59.:39:02.

a new alert system. Warnings are being issued

:39:03.:39:05.

at bus stops, roadside signs and tube stations,

:39:06.:39:07.

under the new system set up Millwall season-ticket holder. But

:39:08.:39:26.

we are not going to talk about that. Air pollution, very high alerts.

:39:27.:39:31.

What difference will this make? It will draw public attention to the

:39:32.:39:36.

problem we have, 9500 premature deaths a year due to air pollution.

:39:37.:39:41.

So this is an important issue. We have got to review things like

:39:42.:39:43.

decisions over future road-building and said, is this going to make air

:39:44.:39:49.

quality worse and if it is, we have to rethink the decision. It is an

:39:50.:39:55.

issue that is going. Just telling us that it is high, does that serve a

:39:56.:40:00.

purpose? I agree that it is a problem. My wife is asthma --

:40:01.:40:07.

asthmatic and I have three-year-old twins. Governments of both colours

:40:08.:40:10.

have encouraged diesel cars over the years via the tax system. That has

:40:11.:40:14.

been catastrophic for the country and for London, so we need action to

:40:15.:40:18.

get those diesel cars off our roads. Would you support that? We do need

:40:19.:40:24.

to review the use of diesel vehicles and yes, we need to prioritise

:40:25.:40:31.

air-pollution. Thank you for being here.

:40:32.:40:38.

Welcome back and let's get back to Donald Trump's travel ban

:40:39.:40:42.

on refugees and citizens from seven mainly Muslim countries.

:40:43.:40:47.

Earlier, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state

:40:48.:40:51.

visit by President Trump to the UK should not go ahead

:40:52.:40:53.

I think it would be totally wrong for him to be coming here while that

:40:54.:41:06.

situation is going on. He has to be challenged on this. So until the ban

:41:07.:41:10.

is lifted, you don't think he should come? I am not happy about him

:41:11.:41:15.

coming here until the ban is lifted. Look at what is happening with those

:41:16.:41:20.

countries. What will be the long term effect of this on the rest of

:41:21.:41:25.

the world? Is this state visit going to become a matter of huge political

:41:26.:41:30.

debate in this country? It would be anyway, but it is a temporary ban,

:41:31.:41:34.

so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe territory. It will be over by April

:41:35.:41:38.

and he is not due to come until summer. But there are three bands.

:41:39.:41:43.

There is the 90 day ban on people coming from the southern countries.

:41:44.:41:48.

There is the 120 day ban on refugees from anywhere in the world, and

:41:49.:41:52.

there is the indefinite ban on Syrian refugees. So there may still

:41:53.:41:57.

be some bans in place. But bear in mind the number of Syrian refugees

:41:58.:42:02.

and refugees from around the world that President Obama took over his

:42:03.:42:05.

eight years. There were years when it was not even up to 50 Syrian

:42:06.:42:09.

refugees that were taken since the civil war has started. This is an

:42:10.:42:15.

ongoing American policy. 12,500 Syrian refugees have come in the

:42:16.:42:21.

last year. Before that, it was a hundred and sometimes under 50. But

:42:22.:42:29.

they are reasonable numbers now, although not something America

:42:30.:42:32.

couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is discovering that being a president

:42:33.:42:38.

is different from being a business man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn

:42:39.:42:42.

the art of leadership, having been a backbench MP, and has struggled to

:42:43.:42:46.

do it, as we are about to discuss with article 50. With this, you have

:42:47.:42:50.

to dramatise the politics of this, and this is what he has done with

:42:51.:42:55.

that statement. Most controversial ever state visit now? I would

:42:56.:43:00.

imagine so. Even regardless of any opposition from the opposition to

:43:01.:43:05.

trump's physical presence in the streets, the presence of

:43:06.:43:10.

demonstrators will be an international new story. If trump's

:43:11.:43:13.

demands for the details of the visit are quite as extreme and as picky as

:43:14.:43:17.

some of the Sunday papers have suggested, that could also be the

:43:18.:43:21.

source of controversy. What do you have in mind? Isn't he anxious that

:43:22.:43:26.

only certain members of the Royal Family turn up? He doesn't want a

:43:27.:43:30.

one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who would, though! Some people may be

:43:31.:43:38.

sympathetic on that. It is the one subject where he is in line with

:43:39.:43:42.

British opinion. Playing golf in front of the Queen may be a higher

:43:43.:43:48.

priority. We have to be realistic. Given the other people from around

:43:49.:43:50.

the world that the Queen has played host to, like the Chinese president

:43:51.:43:54.

and Saudi kings and the like, we have had a lot worse come to visit

:43:55.:43:59.

than Donald Trump. Brexit - how serious our neighbour's problems on

:44:00.:44:05.

this? Very serious, but they often are with Europe. Labour were splits

:44:06.:44:09.

when we joined in the 70s, and still won general elections, in 1974 and

:44:10.:44:14.

1975. There were all over the place in terms of the single currency.

:44:15.:44:18.

Blair said one thing one day and the opposite the next day. Brown did the

:44:19.:44:19.

same. Brown usually set the opposite of

:44:20.:44:33.

what Blair said! They won landslide because they have the political

:44:34.:44:37.

skills to put all of the pressure on the major government, even though

:44:38.:44:39.

their position on the single currency was the same as major's. It

:44:40.:44:44.

is about with Europe the art of leadership. You have to be a

:44:45.:44:50.

political conjuror, you have to dissemble authoritative leak when

:44:51.:44:54.

you lead a divided party over Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his

:44:55.:44:57.

personal credit cannot dissemble, but he's not an individual person on

:44:58.:45:03.

this. He's leading a split party in danger of falling apart, and you

:45:04.:45:08.

need the skills of a political conjurer. Clearly self-evidently

:45:09.:45:13.

he's not displaying it because we are talking about the chaotic split

:45:14.:45:16.

which will manifest itself in that vote on Article 50. Labour and the

:45:17.:45:20.

SNP and the Lib Dems too I would have thought will all put amendments

:45:21.:45:25.

down to the short Article 50 piece of legislation. Do they have any

:45:26.:45:31.

chance of succeeding? No substantial world is changing amendments. I

:45:32.:45:35.

don't think Theresa May has much to worry about actually. I think if

:45:36.:45:40.

anything the reason she's pushed the legal appeal is that it helps her to

:45:41.:45:44.

have a big chunk of the media and a big chunk of public opinion worrying

:45:45.:45:48.

that the popular will of last year is in danger of being overturned and

:45:49.:45:53.

so even if it was a completely hopeless legal appeal, it generated

:45:54.:45:59.

headlines for a week that as an incumbent Prime Minister trying to

:46:00.:46:02.

execute believe vote suits you politically. I think it is a much

:46:03.:46:06.

bigger problem for Labour, we've already seen some Shadow Cabinet

:46:07.:46:10.

issues in the previous week. You have got to remember it's not just a

:46:11.:46:14.

majority of Labour MPs that want to stay in the European Union, but a

:46:15.:46:21.

majority of Labour constituencies, and a majority of labour macro

:46:22.:46:24.

voters wanted to stay as well so we have three lines of division. One

:46:25.:46:29.

amendment that might get through if it was called, and it is in the

:46:30.:46:32.

hands of the Deputy speaker who will be chairing these debates, and that

:46:33.:46:37.

will be an amendment that said regardless of how the Europeans

:46:38.:46:41.

treat our citizens in Europe, all EU citizens here will be afforded full

:46:42.:46:46.

rights to remain. That might get through. It may indeed and lots of

:46:47.:46:54.

backbench MPs would backpack. We all know there will not be mass

:46:55.:46:59.

deportations, it is not legal, it won't happen, it is simply a

:47:00.:47:03.

negotiating tactic. I agree with those who say you shouldn't be using

:47:04.:47:07.

people as a negotiating tactic, but the reality as it is the EU leaders

:47:08.:47:12.

that are doing that because it's already been offered. The remain as

:47:13.:47:16.

should be attacking the EU governments for not offering that in

:47:17.:47:21.

return. Article 50 is the easy bit for her. I agree with other members

:47:22.:47:25.

of the panel that she will get it through and the court case almost

:47:26.:47:29.

helps her by getting an easy journey through Parliament, then it gets

:47:30.:47:33.

really difficult. All of this has been a preamble and once she begins

:47:34.:47:38.

that nightmarish negotiation, there will be opportunities for a smart

:47:39.:47:43.

opposition to make quite a lot of the turmoil to come. Whether Labour

:47:44.:47:50.

are capable of that, let's wait and see. The divisions in Labour are

:47:51.:47:56.

nightmarish for them but by no means unprecedented. Arguably it was much

:47:57.:48:00.

more complicated in the early 1970s when you had Titans on either side,

:48:01.:48:05.

big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony Benn... Michael Foot, they were all

:48:06.:48:14.

at it. The fundamental issue of in or out, and they won two elections,

:48:15.:48:19.

so you have got to be really clever. But also how money more Labour MPs

:48:20.:48:25.

will resign. We shall find out this week.

:48:26.:48:27.

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at midday and all

:48:28.:48:30.

I'll be back here on BBC one next week.

:48:31.:48:34.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:48:35.:49:07.

a free five-a-side tournament that's for everyone.

:49:08.:49:22.

For more information, go to the Get Inspired website.

:49:23.:49:26.

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.