Browse content similar to 21/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Labour attacks Conservative plans for social care and to means-test | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
So can Jeremy Corbyn eat into the Tory lead | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
Theresa May says her party's manifesto is all about fairness. | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
We'll be speaking to a Conservative cabinet minister about the plans. | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
The polls have always shown healthy leads for the Conservatives. | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
But, now we've seen the manifestos, is Labour narrowing the gap? | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
at the opposite ends of the Brexit spectrum. | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
We're looking at the policies and chances of the Liberal Democrats | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:03. | :01:16. | |
panel in the business: Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott | :01:17. | :01:17. | |
and Steve Richards - they'll be tweeting throughout | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
the programme, and you can get involved by using | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says pensioners will be up to ?330 a year | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
worse off under plans outlined in the Conservative manifesto. | :01:31. | :01:42. | |
The Work Pensions Secretary Damian Green has said his party will not | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
rethink their plans to fund social care in England. Under the plans in | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
the Conservative manifesto, nobody with assets of less than ?100,000, | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
would have to pay for care. Labour has attacked the proposal, and John | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor, said this morning that | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
there needs to be more cross-party consensus. | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
That's why we supported Dilnot, but we also supported | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
Because we've got to have something sustainable over generations, | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
so that's why we've said to the Conservative Party, | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
Let's go back to that cross-party approach that actually | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
I just feel we've all been let down by what's come | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
Sam, is Labour beginning to get their argument across? What we had | :02:25. | :02:35. | |
last week was bluntly what felt like not very Lynton Crosby approved | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
Conservative manifesto. What I mean by that is that it looks like there | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
are things that will cause political difficulties for the party over this | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
campaign. I've been talking to MPs and ministers who acknowledge that | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
the social care plan is coming up on the doorstep. It has cut through | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
very quickly, and it is worrying and deterring some voters. Not just | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
pensioners, that people who are looking to inherit in the future. | :03:02. | :03:13. | |
They are all asking how much they could lose that they wouldn't have | :03:14. | :03:15. | |
lost before. A difficult question for the party to answer, given that | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
they don't want to give too much away now. Was this a mistake, or a | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
sign of the Conservatives' confidence? It has the hallmarks of | :03:24. | :03:31. | |
something that has been cobbled together in a very unnaturally short | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
time frame for putting a manifesto together. We have had mixed messages | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
from the Tory MPs who have been out on the airwaves this morning as to | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
whether they will consult on it whether it is just a starting point. | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
That said, there is still three weeks to go, and most of the Tory | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
party this morning feel this is a little light turbulence rather than | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
anything that leaves the destination of victory in doubt. It it flips the | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
normal politics. The Tories are going to make people who have a | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
reasonable amount of assets pay for their social care. What is wrong | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
with that? First, total credit for them for not pretending that all | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
this can be done by magic, which is what normally happens in an | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
election. The party will say, we will review this for the 95th time | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
in the following Parliament, so they have no mandate to do anything and | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
so do not do anything. It is courageous to do it. It is | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
electorally risky, for the reasons that you suggest, that they pass the | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
target their own natural supporter. And there is a sense that this is | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
rushed through, in the frenzy to get it done in time. I think the ending | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
of the pooling of risk and putting the entire burden on in inverted | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
commas the victim, because you cannot insure Fritz, is against the | :04:57. | :05:05. | |
spirit of a lot of the rest of the manifesto, and will give them huge | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
problems if they try to implement it in the next Parliament. Let's have a | :05:09. | :05:17. | |
look at the polls. Nearly five weeks ago, on Tuesday the 18th of April, | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
Theresa May called the election. At that point, this was the median | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
average of the recent polls. The Conservatives had an 18 point lead | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
over Labour on 25%. Ukip and the Liberal Democrats were both on 18%. | :05:33. | :05:41. | |
A draft of Labour's manifesto was leaked to the press. In the | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
intervening weeks, support for the Conservatives and Labour had | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
increased, that it had decreased for the Lib Dems and Ukip. Last Tuesday | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
came the launch of the official Labour manifesto. By that time, | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
Labour support had gone up by another 2%. The Lib Dems and Ukip | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
had slipped back slightly. Later in the week came the manifestos from | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. This morning, for more polls. This | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
is how the parties currently stand on average. Labour are now on 34%, | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
up 4% since the launch of their manifesto. The Conservatives are | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
down two points since last Tuesday. Ukip and the Lib Dems are both | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
unchanged on 8% and 5%. You can find this poll tracker on the BBC | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
website, see how it was calculated, and see the results of national | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
polls over the last two years. So Isabel, is this the Tories' wobbly | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
weekend or the start of the narrowing? This is still an | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
extremely healthy lead for the Tories. At the start of this | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
campaign, most commentators expected to things to happen. First, the Lib | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
Dems would have a significant surge. That hasn't happened. Second, Labour | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
would crash and plummet. Instead they are in the health of the low | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
30s. I wonder if that tells you something about the tribal nature of | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
the Labour vote, and the continuing problems with the Tory brand. I | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
would say that a lot of Tory MPs wouldn't be too unhappy if Labour's | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
result isn't quite as bad as has been anticipated. They don't want | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
Corbyn to go anywhere. If the latest polls were to be the result on June | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
the 8th, Mr Corbyn may not be in a rush to go anywhere. I still think | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
it depends on the number of seats. If there is a landslide win, I | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
think, one way or another, he will not stay. If it is much narrower, he | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
has grounds for arguing he has done better than anticipated. The polls | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
are very interesting. People compare this with 83. In 83, the Tory lead | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
widened consistently throughout the campaign. There was the SDP - | :08:11. | :08:23. | |
Liberal Alliance doing well in the polls. Here, the Lib Dems don't seem | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
to be doing that. So the parallels with 83 don't really stack up. But | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
let's see what happens. Still early days for the a lot of people are | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
saying this is the result of the social care policy. We don't really | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
know that. How do you beat them? In the last week or so, there's been | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
the decision by some to hold their nose and vote Labour, who haven't | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
done so before. Probably the biggest thing in this election is how the | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
Right has reunited behind Theresa May. That figure for Ukip is | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
incredibly small. She has brought those Ukip voters behind her, and | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
that could be the decisive factor in many seats, rather than the Labour | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
share of the boat picking up a bit or down a bit, depending on how | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
turbulent the Tory manifesto makes it. Thank you for that. | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
We've finally got our hands on the manifestos of the two main | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
parties and, for once, voters can hardly complain that | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
So, just how big is the choice on offer to the public? | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
Since the Liberal Democrats and SNP have ruled out | :09:24. | :09:25. | |
coalitions after June 8th, Adam Fleming compares the Labour | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
Welcome to the BBC's election centre. | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
Four minutes from now, when Big Ben strikes 10.00, | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
we can legally reveal the contents of this, our exit poll. | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
18 days to go, and the BBC's election night studio | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
This is where David Dimbleby will sit, although there is no chair yet. | :09:41. | :09:50. | |
The parties' policies are now the finished product. | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
In Bradford, Jeremy Corbyn vowed a bigger state, | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
the end of austerity, no more tuition fees. | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
The Tory campaign, by contrast, is built on one word - fear. | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
Down the road in Halifax, Theresa May kept a promise to get | :10:08. | :10:15. | |
immigration down to the tens of thousands, and talked | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
of leadership and tough choices in uncertain times. | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
Strengthen my hand as I fight for Britain, and stand with me | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
And, with confidence in ourselves and a unity | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
of purpose in our country, let us go forward together. | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
Let's look at the Labour and Conservative | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
On tax, Labour would introduce a 50p rate for top earners. | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
The Conservatives ditched their triple lock, giving them | :10:51. | :11:14. | |
freedom to put up income tax and national insurance, | :11:15. | :11:16. | |
although they want to keep the overall tax burden the same. | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
Labour offered a major overhaul of the country's wiring, | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
with a pledge to renationalise infrastructure, like power, | :11:22. | :11:23. | |
The Conservatives said that would cost a fortune, | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
but provided few details for the cost of their policies. | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
Labour have simply become a shambles, and, as yesterday's | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
manifesto showed, their numbers simply do not add up. | :11:31. | :11:32. | |
What have they got planned for health and social care? | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
The Conservatives offered more cash for the NHS, | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
reaching an extra ?8 billion a year by the end of the parliament. | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
Labour promised an extra ?30 billion over the course of the same period, | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
plus free hospital parking and more pay for staff. | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
The Conservatives would increase the value of assets you could | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
protect from the cost of social care to ?100,000, but your home would be | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
added to the assessment of your wealth, | :12:03. | :12:04. | |
There was a focus on one group of voters in particular | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
Labour would keep the triple lock, which guarantees that pensions go up | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
The Tories would keep the increase in line | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
with inflation or earnings, a double lock. | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
The Conservatives would end of winter fuel payments | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
for the richest, although we don't know exactly who that would be, | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
This is a savage attack on vulnerable pensioners, | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
particularly those who are just about managing. | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
It is disgraceful, and we are calling upon the Conservative Party | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
When it comes to leaving the European Union, Labour say | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
they'd sweep away the government's negotiating strategy, | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
secure a better deal and straightaway guaranteed the rights | :12:56. | :12:57. | |
The Tories say a big majority would remove political uncertainty | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
Jeremy Vine's due here in two and a half weeks. | :13:04. | :13:15. | |
I'm joined now by David Gauke, who is Chief Secretary to the Treasury. | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
Welcome back to the programme. The Tories once promised a cap on social | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
care costs. Why have you abandoned that? We've looked at it, and there | :13:29. | :13:36. | |
are couple of proposals with the Dilnot proposal. Much of the benefit | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
would go to those inheriting larger estates. The second point was it was | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
hoped that a cap would stimulate the larger insurance products that would | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
fill the gap, but there is no sign that those products are emerging. | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
Without a cap, you will not get one. We have come forward with a new | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
proposal which we think is fairer, provide more money for social care, | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
which is very important and is one of the big issues we face as a | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
country. It is right that we face those big issues. Social care is | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
one, getting a good Brexit deal is another. This demonstrates that | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
Theresa May has an ambition to lead a government that addresses those | :14:24. | :14:25. | |
big long-term issues. Looking at social care. If you have assets, | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
including your home, of over ?100,000, you have to pay for all | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
your social care costs. Is that fair? It is right that for the | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
services that are provided to you, that that is paid out of your | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
assets, subject to two really important qualifications. First, you | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
shouldn't have your entire estate wiped out. At the moment, if you are | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
in residential care, it can be wiped out ?223,000. If you are in | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
domiciliary care, it can be out to ?23,000, plus you're domiciliary. | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
Nobody should be forced to sell their house in their lifetime if | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
they or their spouse needs long-term care. Again, we have protected that | :15:14. | :15:15. | |
in the proposals we set out. But the state will basically take a | :15:16. | :15:25. | |
chunk of your house when you die and they sell. In an essence it is a | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
stealth inheritance tax on everything above ?100,000. But we | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
have those two important protections. I am including that. It | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
is a stealth inheritance tax. We have to face up to the fact that | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
there are significant costs that we face as a country in terms of health | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
and social careful. Traditionally, politicians don't address those | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
issues, particularly during election campaigns. I think it is too Theresa | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
May's credit that we are being straightforward with the British | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
people and saying that we face this long-term challenge. Our manifesto | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
was about the big challenges that we face, one of which was | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
intergenerational fairness and one of which was delivering a strong | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
economy and making sure that we can do that. But in the end, someone is | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
going to have to pay for this. It is going to have to be a balance | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
between the general taxpayer and those receiving the services. We | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
think we have struck the right balance with this proposal. But it | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
is entirely on the individual. People watching this programme, if | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
they have a fair amount of assets, not massive, including the home, | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
they will need to pay for everything themselves until their assets are | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
reduced to ?100,000. It is not a balance, you're putting everything | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
on the original two individual. At the moment, for those in residential | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
care, they have to pay everything until 20 3000. -- everything on the | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
individual. But now they will face more. Those in individual care are | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
seeing their protection going up by four times as much, so that is | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
eliminating unfairness. Why should those in residential care be in a | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
worse position than those receiving domiciliary care? But as I say, that | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
money has to come from somewhere and we are sitting at a proper plan for | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
it. While also made the point that we are more likely to be able to | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
have a properly functioning social care market if we have a strong | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
economy, and to have a strong economy we need to deliver a good | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
deal on Brexit and I think Theresa May is capable of doing that. You | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
have said that before. But if you have a heart attack in old age, the | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
NHS will take care of you. If you have dementia, you now have to pay | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
for the care of yourself. Is that they are? It is already the case | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
that if you have long-term care costs come up as I say, if you are | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
in residential care you pay for all of it until the last ?23,000, but if | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
you are in domiciliary care, excluding your housing assets, but | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
all of your other assets get used up until you are down to ?23,000 a | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
year. And I think it is right at this point that a party that aspires | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
to run this country for the long-term, to address the long-term | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
challenges we have is a country, for us to be clear that we need to | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
deliver this. Because if it is not paid for it this way, if it goes and | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
falls on the general taxpayer, the people who feel hard pressed by the | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
amount of income tax and VAT they pay, frankly we have to say to them, | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
those taxes will go up if we do not address it. But they might go up | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
anyway. The average house price in your part of the country is just shy | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
of ?430,000, so if you told your own constituents that they might have to | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
spend ?300,000 of their assets on social care before the state steps | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
in to help...? As I said earlier, nobody will be forced to pay during | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
their lifetime. Nobody will be forced to sell their houses. We are | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
providing that protection because of the third premium. Which makes it a | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
kind of death tax, doesn't it? Which is what you use to rail against. | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
What it is people paying for the services they have paid out of their | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
assets. But with that very important protection that nobody is going to | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
be wiped out in the way that has happened up until now, down to the | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
last three years. But when Labour propose this, George Osborne called | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
it a death tax and you are now proposing a stealth death tax | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
inheritance tax. Labour's proposals were very different. It is the same | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
effect. Labour's were hitting everyone with an inheritance tax. We | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
are saying that there are -- that there is a state contribution but | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
the public receiving the services will have to pay for it out of | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
assets, which have grown substantially. And which they might | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
now lose to social care. But I would say that people in Hertfordshire pay | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
a lot in income tracks, national insurance and VAT, and this is my | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
bet is going to have to come from somewhere. Well, they are now going | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
to pay a lot of tax and pay for social care. Turning to immigration, | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
you promised to get net migration down to 100,020 ten. You failed. You | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
promised again in 2015 and you are feeling again. Why should voters | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
trust you a third time? It is very clear that only the Conservative | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
Party has an ambition to control immigration and to bring it down. An | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
ambition you have failed to deliver. There are, of course, factors that | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
come into play. For example a couple of years ago we were going through a | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
period when the UK was creating huge numbers of jobs but none of our | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
European neighbours were doing anything like it. Not surprisingly, | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
that feeds through into the immigration numbers that we see. But | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
it is right that we have that ambition because I do not believe it | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
is sustainable to have hundreds of thousands net migration, you're | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
after year after year, and only Theresa May of the Conservative | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
Party is willing to address that. It has gone from being a target to an | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
ambition, and I am pretty sure in a couple of years it will become an | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
untimed aspiration. Is net migration now higher or lower than when you | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
came to power in 2010? I think it is higher at the moment. Let's look at | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
the figures. And there they are. You are right, it is higher, so after | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
six years in power, promising to get it down to 100,000, it is higher. So | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
if that is an ambition and you have not succeeded. We have to accept | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
that there are a number of factors. It continues to be the case that the | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
UK economy is growing and creating a lot of jobs, which is undoubtedly | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
drawing people. But you made the promise on the basis that would not | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
happen? We are certainly outperforming other countries in a | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
way that we could not have predicted in 2010. That is one of the factors. | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
But if you look at a lot of the steps that we have taken over the | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
course of the last seven years, dealing with bogus students, for | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
example, tightening up a lot of the rules. You can say all that but it | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
has made no difference to the headline figure. Clearly it would | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
have gone up by much more and we not taken the steps. But as I say, we | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
cannot for ever, it seems to me, have net migration numbers in the | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
hundreds of thousands. If we get that good Brexit deal, one of the | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
things we can do is tighten up in terms of access here. You say that | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
but you have always had control of non-EU migration. You cannot blame | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
the EU for that. You control immigration from outside the EU. | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
Have you ever managed to get even that below 100,000? Well, no doubt | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
you will present the numbers now. You haven't. You have got down a bit | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
from 2010, I will give you that, but even non-EU migration is still a lot | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
more than 100000 and that is the thing you control. It is 164,000 on | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
the latest figures. There is no point in saying to the voters that | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
when we get control of the EU migration you will get it down when | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
the bit you have control over, you have failed to get that down into | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
the tens of thousands. The general trend has gone up. Non-EU migration | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
we have brought down over the last few years. Not by much, not by | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
anywhere near your 100,000 target. But we clearly have more tools | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
available to us, following Brexit. At this rate it will be around 2030 | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
before you get non-EU migration down to 100,000. We clearly have more | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
tools available to us and I return to the point I made. In the last six | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
or seven years, particularly the last four or five, we have seen the | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
UK jobs market growing substantially. It is extraordinary | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
how many more jobs we have. So you'll only promised the migration | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
target because you did not think you were going to run the economy well? | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
That is what you are telling me. I don't think anyone expected us to | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
create quite a number of jobs that we have done over the last six or | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
seven years. At the time when other European countries have not been. | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
George Osborne says your target is economically illiterate. I disagree | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
with George on that. He is my old boss but I disagree with him on that | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
point. And the reason I say that is looking at the economics and the | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
wider social impact, I don't think it is sustainable for us to have | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
hundreds of thousands, year after year after year. Let me ask you one | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
other thing because you are the chief secretary. Your promising that | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
spending on health will be ?8 billion higher in five use time than | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
it is now. How do you pay for that? From a strong economy, two years ago | :24:55. | :24:56. | |
we had a similar conversation because at that point we said that | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
we would increase spending by ?8 billion. And we are more than on | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
track to deliver it, because it is a priority area for us. Where will the | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
money come from? It will be a priority area for us. We will find | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
the money. So you have not been able to show us a revenue line where this | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
?8 billion will come from. We have a record of making promises to spend | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
more on the NHS and delivering. One thing I would say is that the only | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
way you can spend more money on the NHS is if you have a strong economy, | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
and the biggest risk... But that is true of anything. I am trying to | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
find out where the ?8 billion come from, where will it come from? Know | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
you were saying that perhaps you might increase taxes, ticking off | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
the lock, so people are right to be suspicious. But you will not tell us | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
where the ?8 billion will come from. Andrew, a strong economy is key to | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
delivering more NHS money. That does not tell us where the money is | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
coming from. The biggest risk to a strong economy would be a bad | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
Brexit, which Jeremy Corbyn would deliver. And we have a record of | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
putting more money into the NHS. I think that past performance we can | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
take forward. Thank you for joining us. | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
So, the Conservatives have been taking a bit of flak | :26:16. | :26:17. | |
But Conservative big guns have been out and about this morning taking | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
Here's Boris Johnson on ITV's Peston programme earlier today: | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
What we're trying to do is to address what I think | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
everybody, all serious demographers acknowledge will be the massive | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
problem of the cost of social care long-term. | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
This is a responsible, grown-up, conservative approach, | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
trying to deal with a long-term problem in a way that is equitable, | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
allows people to pass on a very substantial sum, | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
still, to their kids, and takes away the fear | :26:46. | :26:47. | |
Joining me now from Liverpool is Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
Petered out, welcome to the programme. Let's start with social | :26:54. | :27:05. | |
care. The Tories are saying that if you have ?100,000 or more in assets, | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
you should pay for your own social care. What is wrong with that? Well, | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
I think the issue at the end of the day is the question of fairness. Is | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
it fair? And what we're trying to do is to get to a situation where we | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
have, for example, the Dilnot report, which identified that you | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
actually have cap on your spending on social care. We are trying to get | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
to a position where it is a reasonable and fair approach to | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
expenditure. But you will know that a lot of people, particularly in the | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
south of country, London and the south-east, and the adjacent areas | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
around it, they have benefited from huge house price inflation. They | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
have seen their homes go up in value, if and when they sell, they | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
are not taxed on that increase. Why should these people not pay for | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
their own social care if they have the assets to do so? They will be | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
paying for some of their social care but you cannot take social care and | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
health care separately. It has to be an integrated approach. So for | :28:11. | :28:12. | |
example if you do have dementia, you're more likely to be in an | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
elderly person's home for longer and you most probably have been in care | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
for a longer period of time. On the other hand, you might have, if you | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
have had a stroke, there may be continuing care needs paid for by | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
the NHS. So at the end of the date it is trying to get a reasonable | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
balance and just to pluck a figure of ?100,000 out of thin air is not | :28:33. | :28:41. | |
sensible. You will have heard me say about David Gold that the house | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
prices in his area, about 450,000 or so, not quite that, and that people | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
may have to spend quite a lot of that on social care to get down to | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
?100,000. But in your area, the average house price is only | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
?149,000, so your people would not have to pay anything like as much | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
before they hit the ?100,000 minimum. I hesitate to say that but | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
is that not almost a socialist approach to social care that if you | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
are in the affluent Home Counties with a big asset, you pay more, and | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
if you are in an area that is not so affluent and your house is not worth | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
very much, you pay a lot less. What is wrong with that principle? I | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
think the problem I am trying to get to is this issue about equity across | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
the piece. At the end of the day, what we want is a system whereby it | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
is capped at a particular level, and the Dilnot report, after much | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
examination, said we should have a cap on care costs at ?72,000. The | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
Conservatives decided to ditch that and come up with another policy | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
which by all accounts seems to be even more Draconian. At the end of | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
the day it is trying to get social care and an NHS care in a much more | :29:54. | :30:02. | |
fluid way. We had offered the Conservatives to have a bipartisan | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
approach to this. David just said that this is a long term. You do not | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
pick a figure out of thin air and use that as a long-term strategy. | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
The Conservatives are now saying they will increase health spending | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
over the next five years in real terms. You will increase health | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
spending. In what way is your approach to health spending better | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
than the Tories' now? We are contributing an extra 7.2 billion to | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
the NHS and social care over the next few years. But you just don't | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
put money into the NHS or social care. It has to be an integrated | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
approach to social and health care. What we've got is just more of the | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
same. What we don't want to do is just say, we ring-fenced an out for | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
here or there. What you have to do is try to get that... Let me ask you | :30:58. | :31:06. | |
again. In terms of the amount of resource that is going to be devoted | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
in the next five years, and resource does matter for the NHS, in what way | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
are your plans different now from the Conservative plans? The key is | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
how you use that resource. By just putting money in, you've got to say, | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
if we are going to put that money on, how do we use it? As somebody | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
who has worked in social care for 40 years, you have to have a different | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
approach to how you use that money. The money we are putting in, 7.7, | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
may be similar in cash terms to what the Tories claim they are putting | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
in, but it's not how much you put in per se, it is how you use it. You | :31:47. | :32:00. | |
are going to get rid of car parking charges in hospital, and you are | :32:01. | :32:02. | |
going to increase pay by taking the cap on pay off. So it doesn't | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
necessarily follow that the money, under your way of doing it, will | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
follow the front line. What you need in the NHS is a system that is | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
capable of dealing with the patience you have. What we have now is on at | :32:12. | :32:19. | |
five Asian of the NHS. Staff leaving, not being paid properly. So | :32:20. | :32:29. | |
pay and the NHS go hand in hand. Let's move onto another area of | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
policy where there is some confusion. Who speaks for the Labour | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
Party on nuclear weapons? Is it Emily Thornbury, or Nia Griffith, | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
defence spokesperson? The Labour manifesto. It is clear. We are | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
committed to the nuclear deterrent, and that is the definitive... Is it? | :32:50. | :33:00. | |
Emily Thornbury said that Trident could be scrapped in the defence | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
review you would have immediately after taking power. On LBC on Friday | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
night. She didn't, actually. I listened to that. What she actually | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
said is, as part of a Labour government coming in, a new | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
government, there is always a defence review. But not the concept | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
of Trident in its substance. She said there would be a review in | :33:25. | :33:31. | |
terms of, and this is in our manifesto. When you reduce | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
something, you review how it is operated. The review could scrap | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
Trident. It won't scrap Trident. The review is in the context of how you | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
protect it from cyber attacks. This will issue was seized upon that she | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
was saying that we would have another review of Trident or Labour | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
would ditch it. That is nonsense. You will have seen some reports that | :33:58. | :34:04. | |
MI5 opened a file on Jeremy Corbyn in the early 90s because of his | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
links to Irish republicanism. This has caused some people, his links to | :34:09. | :34:16. | |
the IRA and Sinn Fein, it has caused some concern. Could you just listen | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
to this clip and react. Do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
all bombing. But do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn what was done | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
with the British Army as well as both sides as well. What happened in | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well. Do you distinguish between | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
state forces, what the British Army did and the IRA? Well, in a sense, | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
prisoners suggested that the British government and the state saw some | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
kind of almost equivalent in it. My point is that the whole violence if | :35:02. | :35:09. | |
you was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time. That | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
was from about two years ago. Can you explain why the Leader of the | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
Labour Party, Her Majesty 's opposition, the man who would be our | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
next Prime Minister, finds it so hard to condemn IRA arming? I think | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
it has to be within the context that Jeremy Corbyn for many years trying | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
to move the peace protest... Process along. So why wouldn't you condemn | :35:40. | :35:48. | |
IRA bombing? Again, that was an issue, a traumatic event in Irish - | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
British relations that went on for 30 years. It is a complicated | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
matter. Bombing is not that complicated. If you are a man of | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
peace, surely you would condemn the bomb and the bullet? Let me say | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
this, I condemn the bomb and the bullet. Why can't your leader? You | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
would have to ask Jeremy Corbyn, but that is in the context of what he | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
was trying to do over a 25 year period to move the priest process | :36:22. | :36:22. | |
along. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35, | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers | :36:27. | :36:28. | |
in Scotland and Wales. Coming up here in 20 | :36:29. | :36:30. | |
minutes, the Week Ahead. First, though, | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
the Sunday Politics where you are. A double-header here | :36:33. | :36:43. | |
in the capital today. We're looking at Ukip | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
and the Liberal Democrats - third and fourth in London | :36:48. | :36:56. | |
in the general elections Its prime goal | :36:57. | :36:58. | |
achieved, what future? Ukip just doesn't do low drama - | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
whether it's referendum campaigns... Ukip's Steven Woolfe will be kept | :37:02. | :37:11. | |
in hospital for another two days, following what Nigel Farage called | :37:12. | :37:19. | |
"an altercation" with fellow After just 18 days in charge, | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
it's been reported tonight that the Ukip leader, | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
Diane James, is set to stand down. Ukip's election story | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
is also a fascinating one. At the 2015 general election, | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
they got the third highest number of votes in London, up from | :37:38. | :37:39. | |
60,000 in 2010 to nearly 300,000 It still wasn't enough to win | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
them a seat in London, but after disastrous council | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
election at the last local elections outside of London, | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
the party's not standing It is a strategic decision, | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
that actually, we want to ensure I think all parties were caught | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
a little bit on the hop with this snap election, | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
so what we are doing is concentrating in those areas | :38:09. | :38:10. | |
where there is either a strong Remain candidate, | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
or we know we have very good The party manifesto is due out this | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
week, but so far their high-profile policy announcements include pledges | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
to ban the burqa and sharia courts, establish a one in, one | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
out immigration policy, a ?10 billion a year cut | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
in the foreign aid budget, and to prevent all residential | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
development on the green belt. There are a number of issues that | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
motivated people to vote to leave, and probably one | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
of those was immigration. We have a very strong | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
and robust immigration policy, which we think will appeal | :38:45. | :38:46. | |
to people, because it is about tackling those numbers | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
of people coming here. But if London voters can't pick | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
Ukip in certain seats, All the evidence from polling | :38:54. | :38:55. | |
suggests that the Ukip vote is transferring insignificant chunks | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
from its previous vote for Ukip is transferring in significant | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
chunks from its previous vote for Ukip to the Conservatives, | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
and that begs all sorts of questions in constituencies where, | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
if you add a sizeable chunk of the Ukip vote to the previous | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
Conservative vote, could that overhaul a Labour | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
or other candidate? Taking a seat like Ealing Central | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
and Acton, a key Labour marginal with a majority just shy of 300, | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
and which Ukip are not contesting. If those voters turn | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
to the Conservatives, And that's exactly what's happening | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
in this Ukip heartland This time, I shall vote | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
Conservative, because I think it's essential that we get a strong | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
mandate to get a good Brexit. Since Farage has gone, | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
and it seems like they've had a lot of trouble within the party, | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
I don't think they are Really, if you want to go | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
with the Brexit, really, you've got However, there are some who believe | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
party still has a role to play. There's only one to be voting for - | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
and I have to speak Because I think they are the only | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
ones who's going to force these Because we are losing our | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
identity in this country. People who's bred and born here, | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
they can't get a house. But having campaigned | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
so hard to leave the EU, this time it's the voters that leave | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
Ukip who could prove equally I'm joined by London Assembly | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
member Peter Whittle, Welcome to you. Three weeks back I | :40:33. | :40:56. | |
asked you how many candidates would stand, and you said you were pretty | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
well covered. I think we took from that nearly all, most. A third you | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
haven't been able to find candidates. It's not a question of | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
that. We said to branches that they could decide what they wanted to do | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
in this election, and they took us at our word. I would have liked to | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
have seen more in London, but we have 48 out of the seats in London. | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
These are very unusual circumstances for this election. Not just in | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
London but across the country. People we saw in the film are | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
lending their vote to Conservatives, I would say. You left it to | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
constituency level, because that is what you do. And in many places, | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
suitable people didn't come forward. That shows you the state of the | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
party in London right now. They are able to choose, and in a number of | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
cases, suitable people didn't come forward. No. In many cases, they | :41:56. | :42:03. | |
wanted to not challenge someone who was a Brexiteer. That was the whole | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
point. That has been the case across the country. We are still standing | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
in the vast majority of seats across the country. People say we are not | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
strong in London. We have two AMs in the London assembly. We didn't have | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
any for a while. Now we are back. People might say you've had a period | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
of strength but it is deserting you rapidly. People say about us, a lot | :42:29. | :42:38. | |
of people want us to go. We are not going anywhere. We are here to stay. | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
We are very strong in certain parts, especially to the east of London, | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
places like Dagenham. We heard there from the good people of Hornchurch. | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
In a number of your associations, people have decided it is not good | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
to challenge a Conservative Brexiteer, who are better able to | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
deal with the process under Theresa May. Thank you for what you have | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
done, but it's over. People do put country before party. The fact is | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
that those voters will come back when they see what happens with | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
Theresa May, which is that there will be softening and backsliding. | :43:23. | :43:24. | |
You are absolutely convinced about that. Totally. For one good reason - | :43:25. | :43:33. | |
when the Prime Minister was Home Secretary, she talked very tough on | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
things like migration. She then presided over the biggest hike in | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
migration we've seen in our history. Why should we trust what Theresa May | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
is going to do with this? The bigger the majority she gets, the softer | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
she will get. Then you will see people coming back to us. We have | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
our manifesto coming out on Wednesday. All of the ideas we have | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
been putting forward, whether it is our migration agenda, cutting | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
foreign aid or getting migration down, all of these issues will be in | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
the mainstream in the gives to come. One thing we do know is that one in | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
one out on immigration. Straightaway? It will be over five | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
years. Don't you want to stop low skilled and unskilled coming in | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
straightaway? Yes. There should be a moratorium on that. That has | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
oppressed wages, no question. It has led to people here not being trained | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
for the jobs they should be able to do. Also, there is unemployment in | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
London. There is unemployment amongst young people. This is not | :44:46. | :44:47. | |
being addressed. When it comes to unskilled or low | :44:48. | :45:08. | |
skilled jobs, there is a glut in the market. Basically, people here | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
cannot get jobs, that is for sure. What is happening is that people are | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
brought in and then paid appalling wages, whether it is in coffee shops | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
or whatever. You know the evidence is not for that. The evidence is | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
that if there is a slight negative, 1% over eight years on low skilled | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
and unskilled. And you know for the workforce as a whole, it is actually | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
slightly higher. The evidence has come from none other than the | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
governor of the Bank of England, who has said that there has been | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
suppression of wages across London. The main point about this is that | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
there is great public concern about the level of migration, as we saw | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
this week with the Tories. They put it as virtually a footnote in the | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
back of their manifesto. But we're talking about London and you must | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
accept that there is not that concerned. There are absolutely is. | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
What concerns do you have at all? About, for instance the loss of ?5 | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
billion, the net contribution to the economy of those East European | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
workers that have come in since 2004. I dispute these figures, first | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
of all, but the other point is this. It is not just about the needs of | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
big business or about money as a whole. It is about housing, it is | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
about hospital places, it is about education places. We have got the | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
biggest crisis in housing in the whole country. But if they are net | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
contributors, contributing to the exchequer, they are helping to | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
provide the receipts improving those conditions. But they are not | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
improving. Or are you blaming them for underinvestment elsewhere? It is | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
absolute common sense that people can see for themselves, if you have | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
huge numbers of people coming into the country, coming into London, | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
London's population is growing by 1 million a decade. That will have an | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
affect on housing, education, social services, on hospitals. 60,000 | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
workers a year coming in, 100,000 with dependents, what would you like | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
to see the figure at, what is a realistic figure for London? That is | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
the wonderful thing about having a points based system. And you have to | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
think through because you will know what different sectors need. Have | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
you an idea? We want to cut migration by half and no other party | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
is saying that at the moment. They are accepting a situation where | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
300,000 people leave so you end up with 300,000 left. We want to get it | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
down to zero net, which would effectively be cutting it by half. | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
And you think that in five years the level of Bob Skilling and investment | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
in further education, the workforce would just emerge to clean our | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
hospitals, to run cafes and work in hotels? This is a counsel of | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
despair. You're basically saying that you are happy to have a Ponzi | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
scheme were you just keep on topping up and topping up and topping up. | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
Those people have to be housed and look after, they have to have | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
medical services, they have to be educated. The fact is that this | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
situation simply cannot go on. We are the only party addressing it. | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
Peter, we will see more details on your policies on Wednesday. Thank | :48:13. | :48:13. | |
you very much indeed. Back in 2015, the Lib Dems | :48:14. | :48:15. | |
collapsed, in London as elsewhere. The extent of any revival | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
would appear to depend still want electoral revenge | :48:19. | :48:27. | |
for a Leave decision. Well, at 20 minutes to five we can | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
now say the decision taken in 1975 by this country to join | :48:32. | :48:41. | |
the Common Market has been reversed. And with that the Liberal Democrats | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
spied an opportunity. They would try to make themselves | :48:49. | :48:50. | |
the voice of the 48%. Going into this election, | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
the party are making a second Our argument is that it shouldn't be | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
a Tory Prime Minister, a Tory cabinet or Tory MPs who sign | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
Britain's contract for the next few In theory, that should | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
work well in London. After all, we cast more votes | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
for Remain than anywhere else in England, but are things | :49:17. | :49:18. | |
really that simple? Just because you voted to stay | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
in the EU, does that mean you want the Lib Dems' solution - | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
a second referendum? Last year she fought and won | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
a landmark court case against the government, | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
forcing them to vote in parliament This election, she is running | :49:37. | :49:38. | |
a tactical voting campaign to help pro-Remain MPs but even she doesn't | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
want to make the public go If you believe in democracy, | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
we have to move on. I personally am not | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
in favour of a second referendum because I think referenda | :49:53. | :49:59. | |
and plebiscite is difficult. I believe in our system | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
of representative democracy, therefore it is about having strong | :50:03. | :50:04. | |
political candidates in parliament to hold | :50:05. | :50:06. | |
government to account, rather than trying to | :50:07. | :50:07. | |
reverse the process. But of course the Lib Dems are | :50:08. | :50:09. | |
standing on more than just Brexit. They also oppose a third runway | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
at Heathrow, want a ban on the sale of diesel vehicles by 2025 | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
and want to put London's suburban railways under | :50:17. | :50:18. | |
Transport for London control. On housing, they want to introduce | :50:19. | :50:20. | |
a rent to own scheme that will help people buy a home and take action | :50:21. | :50:23. | |
on foreign buyers, making sure that all new houses | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
are marketed in the UK first. And they've also pledged | :50:27. | :50:28. | |
?60 million to spend The Lib Dems clearly needed to come | :50:29. | :50:30. | |
up with something by way of a manifesto that would really | :50:31. | :50:41. | |
capture the imagination. They've got two MPs in London | :50:42. | :50:43. | |
at the moment, only nine across the country as a whole, | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
and they really needs to get airtime to get back | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
into the public imagination. And this manifesto | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
really hasn't captured Opinion polls are showing | :50:56. | :50:57. | |
the Lib Dems only a point or so ahead of what they got | :50:58. | :51:05. | |
at the last general election and that result saw them almost | :51:06. | :51:14. | |
wiped out in parliament. Broadly in this election, | :51:15. | :51:16. | |
the Lib Dems have got two The first is keep hold of the two | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
MPs they've currently got and after that they want to try | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
and re-elect some of the party's most famous faces who got kicked out | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
in the last general election, people like Vince Cable, | :51:27. | :51:28. | |
Ed Davey and Simon Hughes. But for a party that struggled | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
in recent elections, that will take a reversal | :51:34. | :51:35. | |
in fortunes and has that much really Imagine a future where people are | :51:36. | :51:46. | |
decent to each other, or we take the challenge of climate change | :51:47. | :51:48. | |
seriously. But even the Lib Dems admits | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
they have no realistic chance A good result would be picking up | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
a few seats, but even that Tom Brake joins me now to discuss | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
his party's offer to London. Welcome. Isn't the truth that a lot | :51:59. | :52:09. | |
of people, as we have acknowledged in the introduction, remain in the | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
capital, but the decision has now been made and they actually just | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
want people, and the government to get on with it. We accept the | :52:18. | :52:24. | |
outcome of the vote. And the country did vote for Brexit. We have a | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
difference of opinion with the Prime Minister over what the best approach | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
to Brexit is going to be an Brexit, of course, as a particular impact on | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
London. It is probably more dependent on us being part of the | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
single market than virtually anywhere else. But isn't it a | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
problem that straight from the word go we had Tim Farron, much of the | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
time he spent in London emphasising a second referendum. But the pure | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
choice, if you want to keep on opposing it, is to come to the | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
Liberal Democrats. Is that where Londoners really are? Do they want | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
that? I don't think it is about opposing it, I think it is about | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
giving people the opportunity, once a Prime Minister has completed the | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
deal, to have their say, because what we do not know a present is | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
whether that deal might require the UK to pay 50 billion euros. If that | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
is the case, I would have thought there was a substantial proportion | :53:21. | :53:22. | |
of people who would be interested in having a view on this. You will know | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
from your own seat the impact of what Ukip might do, not sending in | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
some seats. 7000 Ukip votes in your seat and Ukip were not standing. | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
They claim it is a deliberate strategy and that is something that | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
will potentially cost you dearly, if, as we think we are seeing, they | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
are going over to the Tories. As far as we can tell, that is not | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
happening uniformly, but we are pushing in a London context some | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
proposals which we hope will appeal to Londoners. We oppose Crossrail | :53:54. | :54:04. | |
two, and we are opposing -- we support Crossrail two and we are | :54:05. | :54:12. | |
opposing a third runway. You are specifying local issues, and we know | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
the rules about your constituency, but be honest with me, are those | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
Ukip voters going back to the Conservatives, next door, where you | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
did very well last time as well? I am sure that some of them well. But | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
if we are campaigning on a platform that is not just about Brexit, in | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
London all Liberal Democrat candidates, and we have candidates | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
in all the seats, are also campaigning on things like the NHS, | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
and there will be many former Ukip voters concerned about the state of | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
the NHS. There will also be many Ukip voters worried about the state | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
of funding in London's schools where we have something positive to say in | :54:50. | :54:51. | |
terms of how we would increase funding. You mention you are | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
standing in the seats. Is there an issue now there as well? We have | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
seen the greens withdraw from some seats to help Liberal Democrat | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
candidates in south-west London. What are you putting into this | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
progressive alliance? Would you not have been sensible to stood aside -- | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
to have stood aside in some of these seats? It is a local party decision | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
and some of the local parties in Caroline Lucas's seats decided not | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
to put up a candidate. Why not something like healing and central | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
action, if Ukip had stepped aside their comedy made it easier for the | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
Conservatives and the greens have set aside help Labour. Why would Lib | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
Dems not step aside there? I guess the same question could be asked | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
about Liberal Democrat seat in London where the Labour Party and | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
the greens had not stepped down. You currently have to MPs and you are no | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
longer a big player. The party is still a party, probably not that | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
this general election but in the future general elections aspired to | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
be a party of government. You could see that anywhere -- you could say | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
that at any time. One local party, as with Caroline Lucas's seats, they | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
thought it was right to stand down and that was what we saw. Are you | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
saying that given it does not look, based on the polls, with a normal | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
caveats, that the Liberal Democrats will be making huge progress in this | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
election, they do think there should be serious thinking about | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
realignment and the Lib Dems should think about where it goes and what | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
it does next? The idea of a progressive alliance, if the idea is | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
that the Lib Dems would come to some arrangement with Jeremy Corbyn's | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
Labour Party, the problem is we do not support a lot of what he | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
advocates. He has contributed almost as much to the debacle that is | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
Brexit as a conservative state. I think a conservative alliance with | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
someone who is not conservative is not something we would support. Is | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
there any electoral advantage any more in opposing Heathrow? I mean | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
Labour are not and the Conservatives have made their decision. What can | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
you do know? We will continue to campaign on it. The residents, and | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
there are very many millions of them who live under the flight path, who | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
will be affected by a third runway at they will not want, in my view, | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
politicians to simply throw their hands up in the air and say it is | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
too difficult and it is agreed so let's forget about it. We will | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
continue to campaign against it. London and the south-east are | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
already overheated in terms of that type of development and there are | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
other parts of the country where there is support for airport | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
expansion, which is not the case in places like Heathrow. So you are | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
sticking to that policy. There are enough. On immigration, we spent a | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
lot of the chat on Peter Whittle on this but Liberal Democrats are | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
saying you will make a more positive case for this. Sadiq Khan, the | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
Labour mayor makes a strong case and Jeremy Corbyn makes a pretty strong | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
case for the economic advantages. What do you mean? What would you | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
like to see numerically happen to migration? I don't think you can set | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
a figure because it depends on the strength of the UK economy. I think | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
we want to reassure people that immigration is the immigration that | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
the UK requires and that the people coming to the UK will not buck the | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
system in some way. What is disappointing is that the present | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
government has not use the powers that already exist to ensure that if | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
an EU citizen is not actively seeking work, they can actually be | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
returned to their country of origin. There are powers that already exist. | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
But at the economy needed it and we wanted the economy to keep on going, | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
you would be happy to see migration go up? If that is what the economy | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
needed. If that is what is required, then I think that is something that | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
should be appropriate. It is worth noting that although in the health | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
service we are starting to see immigration from EU countries going | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
down, all that is happening as a result is that immigration, people | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
coming to work in the NHS are coming from instead India and the | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
Philippines. So a reduction in one might simply leads to an expansion | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
in another area. You had a signature policy about people being able to | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
rent and then try to buy their property eventually to attract the | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
young, but the young are still remembering your policy of getting | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
rid of tuition fees. Why not reverse that? I think that is a policy that | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
is not affordable. We have said we will bring back the maintenance | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
grants that allowed disadvantaged students to get to university, | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
something the Conservatives are cancelled. And rent to own is still | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
our policy. Thank you very much, Tom Brake. Andrew, back to you. | :59:34. | :59:40. | |
So, two and half weeks to go till polling day, | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
let's take stock of the campaign so far and look ahead | :59:44. | :59:45. | |
Sam, Isabel and Steve are with me again. | :59:46. | :59:54. | |
Sam, Mrs May had made a great thing about the just about managing. Not | :59:55. | :00:02. | |
the poorest of the poor, but not really affluent people, who are | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
maybe OK but it's a bit of a struggle. What is in the manifesto | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
for them? There is something about the high profile items in the | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
manifesto. She said she wants to help those just above the poorest | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
level. But if you look at things like the winter fuel allowance, | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
which is going to be given only to the poorest. If you look at free | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
school meals for infants, those for the poorest are going to be kept, | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
but the rest will go. The social care plan, those who are renting or | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
in properties worth up to ?90,000, they are going to be treated, but | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
those in properties worth above that, 250,000, for example, will | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
have to pay. Which leads to the question - what is being done for | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
the just about managings? There is something, the personal allowance | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
that David Cameron promised in 2015, that they are not making a big deal | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
of that, because they cannot say by how much. So you are looking in tax | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
rises on the just about managings. Where will the tax rises come from. | :01:15. | :01:22. | |
We do not know, that there is the 40 million pounds gap for the Tories to | :01:23. | :01:29. | |
reach what they are pledging in their manifesto. We do not know how | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
that is going to be made up, more tax, or more borrowing? So that is | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
why the questions of the implications of removing the tax | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
lock are so potentially difficult for Tory MPs. The Labour manifesto | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
gives figures for the cost of certain policies and where the | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
revenue will come from. You can argue about the figures, but at | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
least we have the figures. The Tory manifesto is opaque on these | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
matters. That applies to both the manifestos. Looking at the Labour | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
manifesto on the way here this morning, when you look at the | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
section on care for the elderly, they simply say, there are various | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
ways in which the money for this can be raised. They are specific on | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
other things. They are, and we heard John McDonnell this morning being | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
very on that, and saying there is not a single ? in Tory manifesto. I | :02:25. | :02:33. | |
have only got to page 66. It is quite broad brush and they are very | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
open to challenge. For example, on the detail of a number of their | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
flagship things. There is no detail on their immigration policy. They | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
reiterate the ambition, but not how they are going to do that, without a | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
massive increase in resource for Borders officials. We are at a time | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
where average wages are lagging behind prices. And in work benefits | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
remain frozen. I would have thought that the just-about-managings are | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
people who are in work but they need some in work benefits to make life | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
tolerable and be able to pay bills. Doesn't she has to do more for them? | :03:15. | :03:23. | |
Maybe, but this whole manifesto was her inner circle saying, right, this | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
is our chance to express our... It partly reads like a sort of | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
philosophical essay at times. About the challenges, individualism | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
against collectivism. Some of it reads quite well and is quite | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
interesting, but in terms of its detail, Labour would never get away | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
with it. They wouldn't be allowed to be so vague about where taxes are | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
going to rise. We know there are going to be tax rises after the | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
election, but we don't know where they will be. 100%, there will be | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
tax rises. We know that they wanted a tax rise in the last budget, but | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
they couldn't get it through because of the 2015 manifesto. Labour do | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
offer a lot more detail. People could disagree with it, but there is | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
a lot more detail. More to get your teeth into. About capital gains tax | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
and the rises for better owners and so on. The SNP manifesto comes out | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
this week, and the Greens and Sinn Fein. We think Ukip as well. There | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
are more manifestos to come. The Lib Dems have already brought theirs | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
out. Isn't the Liberal Democrat campaign in trouble? It doesn't seem | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
to be doing particular the well in the polls, or at the local elections | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
a few weeks ago. The Liberal Democrats are trying to fish in | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
quite a small pool for votes. They are looking to get votes from those | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
remainers who want to reverse the result, in effect. Tim Farron is | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
promising a second referendum on the deal at the end of the negotiation | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
process. And that is a hard sell. So those voting for remain on June 23 | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
are not low hanging fruit by any means? Polls suggesting that half of | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
those want to reverse the result, so that is a feeling of about 20% on | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
the Lib Dems, and they are getting slightly less than half at the | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
moment, but there are not a huge amount of votes for them to get on | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
that strategy. It doesn't feel like Tim Farron and the Lib Dems have | :05:44. | :05:52. | |
promised enough. They are making a very serious case on cannabis use in | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
a nightclub, but the optics of what they are discussing doesn't make | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
them look like an anchor in a future coalition government that they would | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
need to be. I wonder if we are seeing the re-emergence of the | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
2-party system? And it is not the same two parties. In Scotland, the | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
dynamics of this election seemed to be the Nationalists against the | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
Conservatives. In England, if you look at what has happened to be Ukip | :06:18. | :06:31. | |
vote, and what Sam was saying about the Lib Dems are struggling a bit to | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
get some traction, it is overwhelmingly Labour and the | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
Conservatives. A different 2-party system from Scotland, but a 2-party | :06:38. | :06:39. | |
system. There are a number of different election is going on in | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
parallel. In Scotland it is about whether you are unionist or not. | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
Here, we have the collapse of the Ukip vote, which looks as though it | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
is being redistributed in the Tories' favour. This is a unique | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
election, and will not necessarily set the trend for elections to come. | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
In the Tory manifesto, I spotted the fact that the fixed term Parliament | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
act is going to be scrapped. That got almost no coverage! It turned | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
out to be academic anyway, that it tells you something about how | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
Theresa May is feeling, and she wants the control to call an | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
election whenever it suits her. Re-emergence of the 2-party system, | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
for this election or beyond? For this election, yes, but it shows the | :07:30. | :07:38. | |
sort of robust strength of parties and their fragility. In other words, | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
the Lib Dems haven't really recovered from the losses in the | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
last general election, and are therefore not really seen as a | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
robust vehicle to deliver Remain. If they were, they might be doing | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
better. The Labour Party hasn't recovered in Scotland, and yet, if | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
you look at the basic divide in England and Scotland and you see two | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
parties battling it out, it is very, very hard for the smaller parties to | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
break through and last. Many appear briefly on the political stage and | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
then disappear again. The election had the ostensible goal of Brexit, | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
but we haven't heard much about it in the campaign. Perhaps the Tories | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
want to get back onto that. David Davis sounding quite tough this | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
morning, the Brexit minister, saying there is no chance we will talk | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
about 100 billion. And we have to have power in the negotiations on | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
the free trade deal or what ever it is. I think they are keen to get the | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
subject of the manifesto at this point, because it has not started | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
too well. There is an irony that Theresa May ostensibly called the | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
election because she needed a stronger hand in the Brexit | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
negotiations, and there was an opportunity for the Lib Dems, with | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
their unique offer of being the party that is absolutely against the | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
outcome of the referendum, and offering another chance. There | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
hasn't been much airtime on that particular pledge, because instead, | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
this election has segued into being all about leadership. Theresa May's | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
leadership, and looking again at the Tory manifesto, I was struck that | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
she was saying that this is my plan for the future, not ABBA plan. Even | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
when talking about social care, he manages to work in a bit about | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
Theresa May and Brexit. And Boris Johnson this morning, an interview | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
he gave on another political programme this morning, it was | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
extraordinarily sycophantic for him. Isn't Theresa May wonderful. There | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
is a man trying to secure his job in the Foreign Office! Will he succeed? | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
I think she will leave him. Better in the tent than out. What did you | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
make of David Davis' remarks? He was basically saying, we will walk away | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
from the negotiating table if the Europeans slam a bill for 100 | :10:15. | :10:22. | |
billion euros. The point is that the Europeans will not slam a bill for | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
100 billion euros on the negotiating table. That is the gross figure. | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
There are all sorts of things that need to be taken into account. I | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
imagine they will ask for something around the 50 or ?60 billion mark. | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
It looks that they are trying to make it look like a concession when | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
they do make their demands in order to soften the ground for what is | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
going to happen just two weeks after general election day. He makes a | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
reasonable point about having parallel talks. What they want to do | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
straightaway is deal with the bill, Northern Ireland and citizens | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
rights. All of those things are very complicated and interlinked issues, | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
which cannot be dealt with in isolation. I wouldn't be surprised | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
if we ended up with parallel talks, just to work out where we are going | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
with Northern Ireland and the border. Steve, you can't work out | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
what the Northern Ireland border will be, and EU citizens' writes | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
here, until you work out what our relationship with the EU in the | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
future will be. Indeed. The British government is under pressure to deal | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
quickly with the border issue in Ireland, but feel they can't do so | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
because when you have a tariff free arrangement outcome, or an | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
arrangement that is much more protectionist, and that will | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
determine partly the nature of the border. You cannot have a quick | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
agreement on that front without knowing the rest of the deal. I | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
think the negotiation will be complex. I am certain they want a | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
deal rather than none, because this is no deal thing is part of the | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
negotiation at this early stage. Sounding tough in the general | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
election campaign also works electorally. But after the election, | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
it will be a tough negotiation, beginning with this cost of Brexit. | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
My understanding is that the government feels it's got to make | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
the Europeans think they will not do a deal in order to get a deal. They | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
don't want no deal. Absolutely not. And I'm sure it plays into the | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
election. I'm sure the rhetoric will change when the election is over. | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
That's all for today, thank you to all my guests. | :12:44. | :12:45. | |
The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at 12.00 | :12:46. | :12:47. | |
And tomorrow evening I will be starting my series of interviews | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
with the party leaders - first up is the Prime | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
Minister, Theresa May, that's at 7pm on BBC One. | :12:55. | :12:56. | |
And I'll be back here at the same time on BBC One next Sunday. | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:00. | :13:04. |