18/03/2018 Sunday Politics London


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18/03/2018

Sarah Smith and Jo Coburn's guests are Sir Alan Duncan MP and Yvette Cooper MP. The political panel consists of Isabel Oakeshott, Matthew Zarb-Cousin and Lucy Fisher.


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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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The Foreign Secretary accuses Russia

of "smug sarcasm, denial,

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obfuscation and delay" in relation

to the Salisbury poisoning case.

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As the diplomatic dispute continues,

where will this crisis go next?

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Police launch a murder

inquiry in to the death

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of another Russian exile.

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So how many other deaths in Britain

are potentially linked to Russia?

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We speak to the Chair of

the Home Affairs Select Committee.

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Should transgender women be included

on Labour's all-women short lists?

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The party postpones

a final decision.

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While a government consultation

on changing the law

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appears to be on hold.

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Has the debate on transgender

rights become toxic?

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In London, nine months on from

the Grenfell Tower fire, are local

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businesses getting the help

they need to get back on their feet?

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me today a panel

of political insiders helping me

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to make sense of all the big

stories:

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Matt Zarb-Cousin, Isabel Oakeshott

and Lucy Fisher.

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Now, Russia's Vladimir Putin has

already been out this

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morning to cast his vote

in the Presidential elections.

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We'll be expecting the result

later this evening,

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but you can probably guess

who the frontrunner is.

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It comes at the end of a week

in which UK-Russia relations turned

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positively sub-zero.

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President Putin.

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BBC News.

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Is Russia behind the poisoning

of Sergei Skripal?

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This week the finger of blame

for the Salisbury attack was

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pointed firmly in one direction.

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TRANSLATION:

First, work out

what actually happened

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there and then we'll talk about it.

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A deadline imposed by

the British government

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calling on the Russians to provide

answers came and went.

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The Prime Minister headed

to the Commons to update MPs.

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They have treated the use

of a military grade nerve agent

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in Europe with sarcasm,

contempt and defiance.

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The only conclusion, she declared,

was that the Russian state

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was responsible for the nerve agent

attack on the Russian double agent

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Sergei Skripal and his

daughter Yulia.

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23 Russian diplomats based

here accused of being spies are to

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be kicked out of the country.

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Moscow responded by

expelling 23 British

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embassy staff.

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UK-Russia relations are well

and truly in the deep freeze.

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The Prime Minister's

response to the crisis has

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won her some new fans.

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Hello.

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She got flowers and fist bumps

in Salisbury on Thursday.

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The Defence Secretary had his own

idiosyncratic message for Moscow.

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Frankly, Russia should go

away, it should shut up.

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Go away, it should shut up.

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The Foreign Secretary

escalated the row by going

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further and directly accusing

Vladimir Putin of personally

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ordering the poisoning.

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Our quarrel is with Putin's

Kremlin and with his

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decision, and we think it

overwhelmingly likely that it was

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his decision, to direct

the use of a nerve agent.

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Convention dictates

that parties often come

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together on major foreign policy

issues but Jeremy Corbyn is not a

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conventional politician.

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How has she responded to the Russian

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government's request for a sample

of the agent used in the Salisbury

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attack to run its own tests?

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Shameful!

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That did not go down

too well with some

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of his own MPs who tabled a motion

expressing their support for the

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Prime Minister's response.

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But Mr Corbyn held

his line, arguing in

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Friday's Guardian that we ought not

to discount the possibility that

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Russian mafia gangs could have

carried out the attack.

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Labour frontbenchers

not exactly been

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toeing that line.

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We fully support the Government's

action because we

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hold Russia responsible.

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There is no alternative

explanation other than

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that responsibility

lies with Russia.

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The US, France and Germany issued

a joint statement of support

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for the UK.

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It's a very sad situation.

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It certainly looks like

the Russians were behind it.

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Something that should

never ever happen.

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Today is election day in Russia.

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And this crisis seems unlikely

to hurt Putin's chances of

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re-election as Russia's President.

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So to pick up some of that news with

our panel.

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Lucy, later this week the National

Security Council will meet to talk

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about what further action the UK

Government Meite, they briefed the

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BBC there is more in the locker,

that was the phrase the useful

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support any idea what they might do

next?

There is a whole suite of

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options available to the government,

the idea of clamp-down on visas for

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dubious Russian businessmen and

their allies wanting to travel to

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the UK, there is talk on pulling the

plug on RTE, the Kremlin backed

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broadcaster with Ruth Davidson

calling for that they. The most

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important action the government

could take is on the wealth, the

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Kremlin gold, and money swilling

around the UK invested here by

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Russian oligarchs are linked to the

Kremlin.

Boss of people from Russian

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politician stomach opposition

politicians who think would be the

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most effective route. That's what

Labour are calling for and we

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haven't really heard that's what

action the government will go in.

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These are quite short-term measures.

What we're looking on with Russia is

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a much wider, long-term problem.

What a lot of people in defence

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circles talk about is a more

asymmetrical response, so rather

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than in addition to the measures

Lucy has articulated, you need to

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look at the whole suite of things in

terms of the disinformation campaign

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that Russia puts out, we need to

look at where we can niggle Russia

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by supporting Ukraine a bit,

supporting states like Azerbaijan

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and a much more hybrid response, I

think.

Matt Zarb-Cousin is, there

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has been a lot of discussion about

Jeremy Corbyn's response to this

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this week. I'm interested, you know

him well, give us an insight into

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what he is thinking. He supports the

Government's actions while not being

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sure about the conclusion that the

Russian state was responsible. Why

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support what they are doing if we

don't support the conclusion?

I

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think the Russian state is culpable

and the Labour Party recognises

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that. I think we all agree that it

isn't a proportionate response, it

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goes nowhere near far enough if the

Russian state is culpable, to just

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expel 23 diplomats and say to the

Royal family they are not going to

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the World Cup. So they have to find

out obviously if the Russian state

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is culpable, and then once they have

the evidence for that then obviously

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build that international coalition

where we can actually take

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meaningful action, not these

tokenistic measures. Even closing

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down Russia's Russia Today emboldens

Putin, look at the West, they can

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censor, he will say. What we really

have to do is go after Putin's kind

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of circle. There is oligarchs here,

whether they are pro-or anti-Putin,

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who have been allowed to settle here

and stow away their money here and

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they have been affected by Putin. If

they are then affected by Putin, if

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we say you have to leave, then that

is a very powerful coalition you are

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building against him.

But Jeremy

Corbyn still isn't convinced that

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the Russian state itself is

responsible.

No, neither is the

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government.

He wouldn't back these

actions until they were proved.

It

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would be naive, it would be

difficult to build an international

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coalition. Even the statement that

Germany France and the US put out,

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the joint statement, said the nerve

agent was of a type developed by

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Russia, not that it was developed by

Russia. It looks increasingly likely

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that that nerve agent came from

Russia and Russia have lost control

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of it, or have used it maliciously,

but we don't know that yet and it's

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very difficult to take action until

we do.

There is a kind of false

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dichotomy here in this idea that

somehow elements of Russian Mafia

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might be responsible. Welcome

potentially they could be, but the

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idea that the Russian Mafia is in

some way completely distinct from

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the Kremlin is a misunderstanding.

In a sense, the Russian Mafia is in

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extra typically linked to the

Kremlin. They are a sort of

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paramilitary wing of the Kremlin so

it is a false dichotomy.

Lucy,

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Jeremy Corbyn has taken a lot of

flak for his response this week.

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Isn't it legitimate to be asking

these questions when, as Matt says,

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even the French, US and German

governments don't seem this --

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convinced this is state directed?

Early in the week we saw some level

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of prevarication by Paris, Berlin

and Washington and that has firmed

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up a lot. I think the quite

unprecedented international joint

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statement put out by those allies

and the UK goes a lot further than

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you say, Matt. I don't think it's as

equivocal as perhaps you suggested.

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Some of the questions Jeremy Corbyn

asks will kind of strike a chord

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with much of the public. I think, in

particular, raising questions about

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the intelligence and exactly what is

known is something that people will

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be thinking about in light of the

2003 Iraq War and some of the

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evidence being politically sexed up,

people want to know that that's not

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the case here.

Briefly.

We don't

know exactly how much Jeremy Corbyn

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had access to in terms of the

intelligence as well. It could well

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be that the government... Boris

Johnson and the Defence Secretary

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Gavin Williamson have gone much

further and said... Boris Johnson

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said it is Putin.

Overwhelmingly

likely.

Williamson said they should

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shut up and go away, or whatever he

said. That suggests to me they are

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either going off message or they

have seen more evidence that perhaps

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Corbyn has not seen.

These are

questions we will explore throughout

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the show and if you stay with us we

will talk to you throughout the

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programme.

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Well, let's stick with this story

because the Foreign Secretary has

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been speaking on the Andrew

Marr Show this morning.

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He was asked how the Government

could be certain that the Russian

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Government was responsible

for the attack.

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We actually have evidence within the

last ten years that Russia has not

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only been investigating the delivery

of nerve agents for the purposes of

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assassination, but has also been

creating and stockpiling Novichok.

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To the best of our knowledge, this

is a Russian-made nerve agent that

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falls within the category Novichok,

made only by Russia.

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I'm joined now by the Foreign Office

Minister Sir Alan Duncan.

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Thank you for talking to us this

morning. Russia have responded, as

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you know, to our expansion --

expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats by

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closing the consulate in St

Petersburg. Is there a second phase

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of government action that will need

to be reintroduced in order to take

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this further?

We have lots of

options. But this isn't just about

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counting heads. This is really about

making clear to the world that one

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of the great achievements of the

world since the Second World War,

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which is a convention to ban

chemical weapons, has been violated.

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And it is clearly traceable back to

a military grade nerve agent of

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Russian origin. We said to the

Russians either you did it directly

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or you have lost control of this,

tell us which. They basically just

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stuck their tongue out at us. Their

irresponsible response to this

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points ever more to them as having

done this, and so the response that

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we have done I think is

proportionate. Yes, they have

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responded back. But what matters

more than anything else is not that

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we now go into some kind of

tit-for-tat stuff by accounting

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exact numbers and things like that,

is that we actually corral the whole

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world to realise that Russia is

totally out of order here and that

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the Chemical Weapons Convention has

been violated in a way that could do

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enormous damage to the world in any

country this happens to happen in,

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in this case the UK, and that is

what we will do.

You are calling for

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a concerted international action,

what would that look like?

We are

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already very grateful to the very

clear response we have had from a

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lot of countries. I was in the

Balkans over the weekend with

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countries like Macedonia and Kosovo,

and they were very, very clear in

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their condemnation of this, because

they themselves are countries which

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suffer from wider Russian

interference. But we have the EU

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foreign ministers meeting tomorrow,

they will be a Prime Minister level

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March European Council on Friday, we

have already had an open discussion

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in the UN at which the Russian

representative cut a very, very

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lonely figure, and this is clearly a

Russian violation of the Chemical

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Weapons Convention and we will

cooperate with the Organisation for

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the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons

to prove even further what we know

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to be the case.

When it comes to

international action, a former UK

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ambassador to Russia, agrees with

you that we need to take action

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along with others and says the

sanctions imposed by the EU after

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Crimea 2014 surprise the Kremlin and

continue to have an impact because

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they were EU wide, but went on to

say Brexit has made Britain's task

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harder in appealing for EU

solidarity this week and the kind of

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international action you are looking

for.

I think that is total nonsense,

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Brexit doesn't have an impact on

this and we are still part of the EU

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and we operate EU sanctions

collaboratively and we're passing

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legislation through the House of

Commons which will give us

0:14:120:14:16

autonomous actions regime following

the departure from the EU, and we

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will include in that what I hope

will be a firm cross-party said

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statement from the House of Commons

that the Magnitsky clause, as people

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have been campaigning for, will be

included in the sanctions and

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anti-money-laundering Bill. And the

passage of this bill predated the

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Salisbury incident, has always been

something we wanted the whole of the

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House of Commons today, not just

something in a committee during

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passage of the bill.

Labour tried to

introduce an amendment to that bill

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with the Magnitsky clause and you

wear minister in the Bill committee

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that rejected those amendments two

weeks ago. -- you wear minister.

I

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answer the question before you ask

the question, which is we wanted it

0:14:580:15:03

to be done on the whole floor of the

house and in the phrasing of the

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amendment it wasn't consistent with

some of the other parts of the act.

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-- you were a minister. We have an

understanding that we hope will be a

0:15:120:15:16

cross-party thing and that will send

a clear message to the world that

0:15:160:15:19

the House of Commons, along with

countries who have done it already,

0:15:190:15:23

will be aligned with the Magnitsky

proposal, which campaigners have

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been wanting.

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The Magnitsky powers would allow you

to take actions against individuals

0:15:310:15:37

guilty of gross human rights

violations. That doesn't allow you

0:15:370:15:40

to attack the money of Putin allies

unless you can find them guilty of

0:15:400:15:47

gross human rights violations so it

wouldn't really allow you to respond

0:15:470:15:51

to this attack, would it?

Again, I'm

afraid you're totally wrong and

0:15:510:15:56

don't understand the wording of the

bill because it is not only gross

0:15:560:15:59

human rights violations in the bill.

There are many purposes included in

0:15:590:16:03

the list of things you can do under

the legislation and it does include

0:16:030:16:07

what you have just described.

But

the powers the Government has

0:16:070:16:11

already on going after things like

this, like unexplained wealth

0:16:110:16:14

orders, have been used only once

since they were introduced. There

0:16:140:16:19

haven't been much evidence the

Government was serious in tackling

0:16:190:16:23

corrupt money brought in through

London.

That's because the

0:16:230:16:27

legislation has only recently come

in and of course it's not

0:16:270:16:30

politicians who make these

decisions. There's a distinction

0:16:300:16:33

between the liberal democracy in

which we live, where judges on the

0:16:330:16:37

law take their course from

politicians. And what we think is

0:16:370:16:43

happening in Russia, which is not a

real democracy, we are looking at a

0:16:430:16:48

pretty odd election taking place

today where Vladimir Putin will

0:16:480:16:52

undoubtedly be supposedly re-elected

for the fourth time. That is a deep

0:16:520:16:57

distinction between our values and

bears. One of the great values we

0:16:570:17:01

have seen in the world is the

creation of the chemical weapons

0:17:010:17:05

Convention. Jeremy Corbyn has always

been the great disarm and here we

0:17:050:17:10

have a violation of the ideological,

the sort of principled convention

0:17:100:17:14

that has been built up over many

decades, violated in our own

0:17:140:17:19

country, which is why I think many

young people are disappointed with

0:17:190:17:25

his response.

Ben Wallace, the

security minister, said we have

0:17:250:17:28

allowed nasty individuals to come to

the City of London and launder

0:17:280:17:33

illicit money. That sounds like an

admission that until now this

0:17:330:17:35

Government hasn't been doing enough

to tackle corrupt money in London.

I

0:17:350:17:41

think we are amassing the powers to

tackle exactly the kind of issue he

0:17:410:17:47

has identified, and indeed Ben

Wallace is the security minister who

0:17:470:17:51

has been supporting this, pressing

for it and administering it from the

0:17:510:17:56

Home Office point of view. We have

to make a proper distinction though

0:17:560:18:00

without compromising our values

between those who are guilty and

0:18:000:18:03

those who are not. Not every

oligarch is guilty and not every

0:18:030:18:08

rich Russian is necessarily a crony

of Putin and someone who should be

0:18:080:18:13

subject to sanctions so we need to

approach this without compromising

0:18:130:18:17

our values. But there is something

much more important than this, what

0:18:170:18:22

really matters is the world needs to

realise that if we allow chemical

0:18:220:18:26

weapons to slip into use any more

that's happened now, we will live in

0:18:260:18:30

a much more dangerous world and one

which is tearing up the rule book,

0:18:300:18:35

throwing away the chemical weapons

Convention which has been in place

0:18:350:18:39

for so many decades, indeed it was

one of the great idealistic

0:18:390:18:44

achievements of the post war world

that we put this in place so we have

0:18:440:18:48

to the robust in pointing the finger

at Russia and saying this violation

0:18:480:18:54

by the use of chemical weapons is

simply not acceptable.

Thank you for

0:18:540:19:00

that.

0:19:000:19:00

Well, earlier this week the police

announced that they were launching

0:19:000:19:03

a murder inquiry in to the death

of another Russian businessman

0:19:030:19:05

living in Britain.

0:19:050:19:06

A pathologist's report says

Nikolai Glushkov died

0:19:060:19:08

of "compression to the neck"

after being found dead

0:19:080:19:10

at his home on Monday.

0:19:100:19:11

The Metropolitan Police say

there is no evidence to suggest

0:19:110:19:14

a link to the attempted murder

of Sergei and Yulia Skripal.

0:19:140:19:16

But the Home Office has announced it

will investigate a number

0:19:160:19:19

of other unexplained deaths

following the Skripal case.

0:19:190:19:21

Yvette Cooper is the Chair of

The Home Affairs Select Committee.

0:19:210:19:29

You specifically asked the Home

Secretary to investigate 14 other

0:19:300:19:34

deaths that you are worried may have

had Russian involvement, do you have

0:19:340:19:39

much evidence for that?

My concern

is that any area where there are

0:19:390:19:44

allegations that there may have been

either Russian involvement or

0:19:440:19:48

suspicious circumstances that may

need to be investigated should be,

0:19:480:19:52

because I think we have to have the

full facts. There was a BuzzFeed

0:19:520:19:56

investigation that made allegations

about 14 cases, there are other

0:19:560:20:01

concerns raised about others. It's

not for me to judge the individual

0:20:010:20:06

circumstances, my concern is these

cases, where there have been

0:20:060:20:11

preliminary conclusions of suicide

or natural causes or accident, that

0:20:110:20:16

actually there may be further

evidence of more suspicious

0:20:160:20:19

circumstances, they should now be

reviewed by the Home Office and

0:20:190:20:24

police.

The Home Office have said

they will do that but if you look at

0:20:240:20:28

the the case of someone who died in

2012, Surrey police says they will

0:20:280:20:35

not reinvestigate so will they be

able to cover new evidence?

I assume

0:20:350:20:40

the Home Office will assure there is

a review of all of these cases. The

0:20:400:20:45

Home Office Secretary will want to

satisfy herself that every corner

0:20:450:20:49

has been looked into and this has

been done properly and we get to the

0:20:490:20:53

bottom of this. I do accept the

priority for them at the moment must

0:20:530:20:57

be this current investigation and

the current circumstances in

0:20:570:21:01

Salisbury and where those

investigations lead, but they will

0:21:010:21:06

need I think to follow up by looking

at these other cases as well.

So you

0:21:060:21:11

have any doubt that what happened in

Salisbury was directed by the

0:21:110:21:16

Russian state?

I share the

conclusions of the French, German

0:21:160:21:19

and British government that it is

implausible the Russian state wasn't

0:21:190:21:23

involved in some way or another.

So

Jeremy Corbyn is wrong when he says

0:21:230:21:27

it is either the Russian state or a

chemical weapon that got out of

0:21:270:21:34

control and into other people's

hands?

We don't know which

0:21:340:21:37

individuals caused the attack and

how the nerve agent was brought into

0:21:370:21:42

the country, we also don't know

which bit of the Russian state was

0:21:420:21:46

particularly involved, but I think

the clear evidence, the way in which

0:21:460:21:50

the Russian government has been

behaving since this happened really

0:21:500:21:56

is not the behaviour of a government

that is saying we weren't involved

0:21:560:22:00

and we want to help get to the

bottom of this because we take it

0:22:000:22:04

seriously. This morning the Russian

Embassy has been tweeting

0:22:040:22:15

Embassy has been tweeting pictures

of Hercule Poirot.

So are you

0:22:150:22:22

embarrassed by Jeremy Corbyn saying

there isn't enough evidence to link

0:22:220:22:26

this to the Kremlin?

This morning

John McDonnell said we should

0:22:260:22:30

condemn the Russian government for

the way it's behaved on this, and

0:22:300:22:34

that the Russian government is

responsible, and I agreed with him,

0:22:340:22:38

and he went further than Theresa May

by pointing the finger at Putin,

0:22:380:22:45

something similar to what Boris

Johnson has said, so I think there's

0:22:450:22:49

a recognition that even though we

don't know which individual

0:22:490:22:52

delivered the nerve agent there is

responsibility here in the Russian

0:22:520:22:56

state and I think some part of the

security service is what we expect

0:22:560:23:02

as well.

It was clear in the House

of Commons this week there were

0:23:020:23:07

senior Labour MPs like yourself

uncomfortable with Jeremy Corbyn's

0:23:070:23:11

position. There's also been reports

this has been seen as a watershed

0:23:110:23:17

moment by some moderate Labour MPs

wondering what they are doing in

0:23:170:23:21

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and

revived talk of a breakaway party,

0:23:210:23:25

is that something you have heard

about?

I think this is a load of

0:23:250:23:33

rubbish. I have not heard this so I

think this is in danger of

0:23:330:23:38

spiralling ever outwards and we are

also in danger of making this an

0:23:380:23:43

issue about domestic politics at a

time when there is very serious

0:23:430:23:47

international issues here that we

should be focusing on and coming

0:23:470:23:50

together to focus on as well.

That's

why it becomes a domestic issue

0:23:500:23:54

because it's at times like this you

might expect the leader of

0:23:540:24:00

opposition to back-up the Prime

Minister, you were clearly

0:24:000:24:02

uncomfortable with the way he did

not do that, so it has consequences

0:24:020:24:05

within the Labour Party.

As I

understand it, Jeremy has said that

0:24:050:24:10

the evidence points to wash, that

also he supports all of the measures

0:24:100:24:15

and that's really important that

0:24:150:24:20

and that's really important that you

have unanimity about the actions

0:24:210:24:21

that need to be taken, and calling

for further action around the

0:24:210:24:26

economic sanctions. They understand

he wanted to wait for further

0:24:260:24:29

evidence before going further and

criticising the Russian government.

0:24:290:24:34

Obviously John McDonnell has

criticised the Russian government

0:24:340:24:37

today, but I'm not going to

criticise Jeremy for taking a

0:24:370:24:41

slightly different view because I

think there's been too much

0:24:410:24:45

temperature in this and you have

heard people being called warmongers

0:24:450:24:48

for condemning the Russian state,

you've also heard people being

0:24:480:24:53

called appeasers for asking further

questions.

0:24:530:25:03

questions. None of that helps. We

are not talking about military

0:25:030:25:06

action, we are talking about

systematic diplomatic measures,

0:25:060:25:07

criminal investigation measures and

I hope there can be unanimity about

0:25:070:25:09

what those measures should be.

Yvonne Cooper, thank you. I will

0:25:090:25:12

just pick up some of that with the

panel. Lucy Fisher, it was clear

0:25:120:25:18

listening to Yvette Cooper, and

Shami Chakrabarti, very much in the

0:25:180:25:22

Labour Party people who seemed to be

at odds at the beginning of the week

0:25:220:25:25

as saying there is nothing to see

here, is that true?

I'm not entirely

0:25:250:25:32

convinced, I think this has opened

up old wounds in the Labour Party,

0:25:320:25:37

the front bench has been strained by

this response, and while we were

0:25:370:25:41

talking about how some of the

questions he has asked are valid,

0:25:410:25:45

tonally I think the response has

upset a lot of Labour MPs, including

0:25:450:25:51

those who have called for the

Commons to unequivocally condemn the

0:25:510:25:54

Russian state.

Matt Zarb Cousin,

Labour has been

0:25:540:26:09

Labour has been calling for -- the

Government have been calling for

0:26:090:26:13

Magnitsky clauses, exactly what

Jeremy Corbyn called forth. Were you

0:26:130:26:16

satisfied with what you heard from

from Alan Duncan?

No, they are

0:26:160:26:23

watered down compared to what Jeremy

Corbyn had in the manifesto in the

0:26:230:26:26

last election. I think there is an

agreement among the Labour Party now

0:26:260:26:30

and the front bench particularly

that the Russian state is culpable

0:26:300:26:34

and that is shared across the house.

You are still couple books under the

0:26:340:26:40

chemicals weapons Convention if you

lose control of the nerve agent,

0:26:400:26:46

which is what happened.

Now the

Conservative government is serious

0:26:460:26:50

about financial powers in order to

target corrupt money? David Cameron

0:26:500:26:54

said one of his great regrets is

that he never introduced me

0:26:540:26:58

Magnitsky powers, the Government say

they will go ahead with it, is it

0:26:580:27:03

powers they will use in a meaningful

way?

I think they are absolutely

0:27:030:27:09

serious. The national security

adviser said he understands this, as

0:27:090:27:14

does the intelligence minister Ben

Wallace, they have already used

0:27:140:27:17

these new powers about freezing the

assets on unexplained wealth. A

0:27:170:27:24

fairly new measure which has already

been implemented in at least one

0:27:240:27:28

case as I understand it. I want to

come back on your comments, you say

0:27:280:27:32

the Labour Party is singing as one,

I don't pick that up from the

0:27:320:27:37

rhetoric. I felt Yvette Cooper was

extraordinarily diplomatic, but

0:27:370:27:42

trying to paper over serious cracks

within the Parliamentary party about

0:27:420:27:45

Labour's position on this. It is

clear Jeremy Corbyn doubts the

0:27:450:27:51

intelligence on it.

It is not the

intelligence he doubts, it is the

0:27:510:27:56

way the intelligence has been

interpreted by the Government, and

0:27:560:27:59

I'm talking about intelligence he

perhaps hasn't seen so we don't know

0:27:590:28:02

how much he has seen. Theresa May,

as Lucy's story showed this week,

0:28:020:28:09

hasn't necessarily shown the Leader

of the Opposition and chief of staff

0:28:090:28:13

everything. It is the same as Iraq

in a sense. It is not the

0:28:130:28:18

intelligence itself necessarily, it

is how the Government uses the

0:28:180:28:21

intelligence, and that's when it

comes back to the nerve agent being

0:28:210:28:24

of a type developed by Russia.

OK, talking of cracks in the Labour

0:28:240:28:31

Party we have another story...

0:28:310:28:35

On Tuesday the Labour Party

were expected to rubber

0:28:350:28:37

stamp their support for transgender

women to be included

0:28:370:28:39

on all-women short lists.

0:28:390:28:41

But this programme has learned that

that announcement has been delayed

0:28:410:28:43

so that arguments on all sides

can be heard.

0:28:430:28:45

The rights of the transgender

community have also become part

0:28:450:28:47

of a wider conversation

in Westminster after the government

0:28:470:28:50

backed calls to simplify the legal

process to for someone

0:28:500:28:52

to change their gender.

0:28:520:28:53

Greg Dawson reports.

0:28:530:28:56

This is Heather Peto.

0:28:580:29:00

I've always known I'm a woman,

it's when I became a teenager that

0:29:000:29:04

I really sort of like felt

the pressure to be who I was.

0:29:040:29:07

And, at the next general election,

she wants to make political history.

0:29:070:29:12

I'd like to be one of the first

transgender MPs in Parliament.

0:29:120:29:16

But that ambition has

propelled her and others

0:29:160:29:18

to the centre of a significant row

in the Labour Party

0:29:180:29:21

after she was included

on an all women's short list

0:29:210:29:23

as a Parliamentary candidate.

0:29:230:29:30

I don't think it's an issue to be

honest. I think the local party

0:29:300:29:36

decides and the best candidates will

get through so I don't think it is

0:29:360:29:40

an issue. I think it's being made an

issue by some people that are more

0:29:400:29:45

anti-transgender, but local people

don't seem to be worried.

0:29:450:29:47

Labour say they've always welcomed

self-identifying trans women

0:29:470:29:50

onto all women's short lists

but that policy has recently

0:29:500:29:52

come under attack.

0:29:520:29:54

Enter the self-described radical

feminists who descended

0:29:540:29:56

on Parliament this week

for a meeting they titled

0:29:560:29:58

"transgender and the war on women".

0:29:580:30:06

They've been described

as transphobic, a label they reject.

0:30:060:30:09

I can see already there

are trans-identifying

0:30:090:30:11

men cynically use -

what I feel - are cynically

0:30:110:30:13

using those positions.

0:30:130:30:19

You've got Heather Peto who is

the trans-inclusionary officer

0:30:190:30:21

of the Labour Party,

he went on to an all

0:30:210:30:24

women's short list.

0:30:240:30:25

The fact that you are referencing

Heather as 'he' against her wishes

0:30:250:30:28

would be insulting to her.

0:30:280:30:30

I could go on and on about

preferred pronouns.

0:30:300:30:35

Once we start using she for a man,

we are blurring the distinction.

0:30:350:30:37

Venice Allan is a Labour member

but those views got her suspended.

0:30:380:30:42

She knows what she says is offensive

to the trans community

0:30:420:30:45

but makes no apology for it.

0:30:450:30:50

I really do want to have this

conversation, like I say,

0:30:500:30:53

you don't have to agree with us

but you do have to listen to us.

0:30:530:30:56

Like the Labour Party, you know,

they're not listening.

0:30:560:30:59

I've tried to set up Momentum

events, Labour events, I've tried

0:30:590:31:01

to meet with Jeremy Corbyn

and other politicians.

0:31:010:31:05

Labour were supposed to formally

clarify their support for trans

0:31:050:31:11

women on all-women short

lists at a meeting at the

0:31:110:31:13

party's HQ this week.

0:31:130:31:14

We've been told that decision

would have triggered

0:31:140:31:16

the resignations of more

than 200 female members.

0:31:160:31:20

Then yesterday, Labour told us

that formal discussion

0:31:200:31:20

was delayed until June.

0:31:200:31:23

This is all a precursor to a much

wider political debate

0:31:240:31:28

going on with the Government

committing to update

0:31:280:31:30

the Gender Recognition Act.

0:31:300:31:32

As the Prime Minister has explained,

the changes would allow people

0:31:320:31:35

to self define their gender

without the need for

0:31:350:31:37

medical diagnosis.

0:31:370:31:40

We have set out plans to reform

the Gender Recognition Act,

0:31:400:31:43

streamlining and demedicalising

the process for changing gender,

0:31:430:31:46

because being trans is not

an illness and it shouldn't be

0:31:460:31:48

treated as such.

0:31:480:31:55

Since she made that speech

at the Pink Awards last October,

0:31:560:32:02

progress on those changes

to the Gender Recognition Act seems

0:32:020:32:04

to have slowed down.

0:32:040:32:05

A consultation was expected

in the autumn but nothing surfaced.

0:32:050:32:10

I've asked the Government what's

going on and they just say in this

0:32:100:32:13

very short statement that

a consultation will be published

0:32:130:32:15

in due course, but no date given.

0:32:150:32:20

And our various requests to speak

to politicians both in favour

0:32:200:32:24

and opposed to these changes

were all turned down, which came

0:32:240:32:27

as little surprise to some.

0:32:270:32:28

I know journalists and I know

politicians who have

0:32:280:32:30

questions about this,

who have doubts about it,

0:32:300:32:33

who don't dare express those doubts,

raise those questions,

0:32:330:32:39

because they are worried that

if they do they will be screamed at,

0:32:390:32:42

they will be accused of bigotry

and transphobia simply

0:32:420:32:44

for asking questions.

0:32:440:32:47

James Kirkup has written a number

of columns on the updates to the act

0:32:470:32:50

and isn't sure it's been

properly thought through.

0:32:500:32:52

There are questions about access

to safe spaces for women

0:32:520:32:57

in domestic violence refuges,

there are questions

0:32:570:32:59

about the collection,

collation of statistics

0:32:590:33:01

on crime, on pay.

0:33:010:33:04

Questions that should be asked,

debated, discussed and answered.

0:33:040:33:08

Heather Peto says the changes

are long overdue though,

0:33:080:33:15

and hopes she can one day speak up

for the rights of the

0:33:150:33:17

trans-community from the benches

of the House of Commons.

0:33:170:33:19

As a feminist, I would stand up

to that and say, no,

0:33:190:33:22

I will just be who I am.

0:33:220:33:24

I have the self-confidence that I'm

a woman and I always have been,

0:33:240:33:27

and people should just

accept me for that.

0:33:270:33:33

The two chip significant issues to

pick about bout the Labour Party and

0:33:330:33:37

the Government's consultation about

transgender rights, let me start

0:33:370:33:40

with you, Matt -- two significant

issues. The government is in a

0:33:400:33:46

terrible tangle on transgender women

on all women short lists and they've

0:33:460:33:51

had to put it off until June.

Self

identifying trans-woman has never

0:33:510:33:56

been disbarred from being on a

women's short list in the Labour

0:33:560:34:00

selection. The consultation was, as

I understand it, coming up with a

0:34:000:34:05

form of words...

Clarifying the

position that trans-women are

0:34:050:34:10

elaborate rules to be on all women

short lists, it has caused such

0:34:100:34:14

around the party with two prominent

members threatening to resign if

0:34:140:34:17

that warning is put in, that the

party has been bucking the decision

0:34:170:34:20

and kicking it into the long grass.

The conversations I have had with

0:34:200:34:24

the leader's of this suggest that is

not the case, they are still

0:34:240:34:27

consulting on it and exactly what

the form of words will be there is

0:34:270:34:31

no actual plan as far as I'm aware

to stop trans-women self identifying

0:34:310:34:36

and being on a women's short list.

Can I ask how many trans-women are

0:34:360:34:40

applying to be on all women short

lists?

I'm not sure.

I suspect it is

0:34:400:34:49

zero.

Heather Peto is one of them in

the film, there may be several.

0:34:490:34:52

There may be but I suspect it is

less than the number of women on

0:34:520:34:59

this.

0:34:590:34:59

Not from any disparaging how

difficult it must be to be in that

0:35:040:35:07

situation. There would be a simple

way of resolving the switch would be

0:35:070:35:10

not to have all women short lists

and select the best candidates for

0:35:100:35:13

the job.

It is also about whether

Labour MPs have access to the

0:35:130:35:21

leadership programme, whether they

can stand as women's officers in

0:35:210:35:25

local parties. What Labour did is

they jumped the gun by saying it is

0:35:250:35:28

fine, or self identifying

trans-women can have access to these

0:35:280:35:34

full rights. I think it is quite

welcome to have a consultation.

0:35:340:35:37

Politics is the art of persuasion

and there was no real attempt by the

0:35:370:35:40

Labour leadership to bring the

party, bring some of the feminist...

0:35:400:35:45

There are radical feminists in the

party who will take more than a bit

0:35:450:35:48

of gentle persuasion to get

accustomed to the idea that people

0:35:480:35:52

who were born men should be on an

all women short list.

That's right

0:35:520:35:55

but as we saw in the VT they are

asking for an opportunity to be

0:35:550:36:03

heard and the debate to be had so it

is quite welcome there will be a

0:36:060:36:09

consultation.

It's not just the

Labour Party that seems to have

0:36:090:36:11

kicked on this issue of it, we don't

know what happened to the

0:36:110:36:14

Government's consultation on making

it easier to self identify as a man

0:36:140:36:16

or woman. That's going to be a

difficult one for the government.

0:36:160:36:19

Remember the culture wars within the

toy party that David Cameron fought

0:36:190:36:21

over gay marriage.

Absolutely and

this is even much more complicated

0:36:210:36:24

and a sensitive issue. It is so easy

and I've been guilty of it myself to

0:36:240:36:28

get the language are wrong on this,

to upset people, and I can only

0:36:280:36:34

imagine the Prime Minister's qualms

about opening this can of worms

0:36:340:36:38

within her own party, where there

will be people who are incredibly

0:36:380:36:41

off message about it. It seems they

are pushing agendas are long grass

0:36:410:36:49

and there are bigger issues to worry

about.

You are talking about 2000 or

0:36:490:36:52

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

It is a rounding error.

In the

0:36:520:36:58

Labour Party, you're talking about?

It is not splitting the party, it is

0:36:580:37:03

a small minority of women who don't

believe in trans-rights, that's it.

0:37:030:37:07

Interesting to hear Theresa May

talking about the Government's

0:37:070:37:10

consultation. That was a clear

statement she made at the pink news

0:37:100:37:13

conference saying she wanted to

streamline this and trans-wasn't a

0:37:130:37:16

mental health issue, she made a

strong commitment to trans-rights

0:37:160:37:21

and she didn't have to do that.

She

didn't at all and it was fascinating

0:37:210:37:24

she went as far as that. It is not

unprecedented. Ireland, Argentina,

0:37:240:37:30

Colombia and Malta have changed

their processes to deep apologise it

0:37:300:37:34

so it is merely a legal process and

that is what the government is

0:37:340:37:37

getting at. My understanding is for

a person to legally change their

0:37:370:37:43

gender they have to live as their

desired gender for two years and

0:37:430:37:46

they have to have psychiatric

evaluations and medical opinions

0:37:460:37:49

from two doctors and tests that some

have claimed are incredibly

0:37:490:37:54

traumatising. It can be made legal

process from precedents aboard.

We

0:37:540:38:01

will carry on talking to you

throughout the programme.

0:38:010:38:03

It's coming up to 11:40am,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:030:38:06

Still to come -

0:38:060:38:07

There is a big row brewing

in the Brexit Select Committee

0:38:070:38:10

and I'll be talking to its Chairman

- Hilary Benn.

0:38:100:38:12

First though, it's time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:120:38:19

Hello and welcome to

the London part of the show.

0:38:220:38:24

I'm Jo Coburn.

0:38:240:38:29

I'm joined for the duration

by Vicky Foxcroft, Labour MP

0:38:290:38:31

for Lewisham Deptford

and Mark Field, the Conservative MP

0:38:310:38:34

for the Cities of London

and Westminster, who is also

0:38:340:38:37

a minister in the Foreign Office.

0:38:370:38:39

Welcome to both of you.

Good

morning.

0:38:390:38:43

Now I want to start with a subject

in which both our guests take

0:38:430:38:46

a particular interest as members

of the Youth Violence Commission,

0:38:460:38:49

the problem of knife crime.

0:38:490:38:50

On Wednesday at Prime

Minister's Question Time,

0:38:500:38:52

Vicky raised the issue

of access to knives.

0:38:520:38:56

Youth violence is complex and needs

long-term solutions.

0:38:560:39:00

But some things can be

done right now such as

0:39:000:39:03

legislating to ensure that

all knives and sharp instruments in

0:39:030:39:05

shops are locked away,

or stored behind counters,

0:39:050:39:07

ensuring that no one can steal them

and use them.

0:39:070:39:10

Will she do this?

0:39:100:39:11

SPEAKER:

Prime Minister.

0:39:110:39:16

The Honourable Lady has raised

an important issue and, as

0:39:160:39:19

she says, this is a complex problem

and we need to ensure we have

0:39:190:39:23

long-term solutions for it.

0:39:230:39:27

My Right Honourable friend,

the Home Secretary, will shortly be

0:39:270:39:34

publishing a new Serious Violence

Strategy which will put an emphasis

0:39:340:39:36

on interventions early

with young people.

0:39:360:39:38

But it's important we have tough

legislation on knives.

0:39:380:39:40

But we also do need

to work in partnership

0:39:400:39:42

with retailers.

0:39:420:39:43

We have recently consulted

on new measures including

0:39:430:39:46

restrictions on knives sold online,

and in March 2016 when I was Home

0:39:460:39:49

Secretary we reached

a voluntary agreement

0:39:490:39:50

with major retailers

about

0:39:500:39:52

how knives were displayed and

the training given to sales staff to

0:39:520:39:55

support action to

tackle knife crime.

0:39:550:39:57

But the Honourable Lady is right

to raise this as an area of concern.

0:39:570:40:03

You raised this at PMQs. How will

simply changing where knives are

0:40:040:40:08

kept, removing them from shop

floors, deal with the issue of knife

0:40:080:40:12

crime in London?

I think that's

absolutely right, I raised one issue

0:40:120:40:16

but actually in terms of the work we

have been working on in terms of the

0:40:160:40:21

cross-party Youth Violence

Commission it is very much taking a

0:40:210:40:23

root and branch look at everything

and really a long-term view of

0:40:230:40:29

stuff, so any strategy needs to be a

long-term strategy that looks at the

0:40:290:40:33

trauma that young people are facing.

Have you got any figures around how

0:40:330:40:36

many knives are taken or stolen from

shop floors to indicate this is a

0:40:360:40:41

problem that needs addressing?

This

is one of the things that we did try

0:40:410:40:44

and go and gather, those figures,

but those figures are not recorded,

0:40:440:40:48

you can either get the figures for

the number of things that have been

0:40:480:40:51

shoplifted, or the figures for the

number of knife crime incidents.

0:40:510:40:54

None of that is entirely reliable.

Can I pay credit to Vicky, she has

0:40:540:40:59

been the leading light in this

forum, not least the commission's

0:40:590:41:04

work, I was part of two or years ago

before I became a minister and I can

0:41:040:41:11

do less work on it now. This is a

classic area where parliamentarians

0:41:110:41:14

can work together on a cross-party

basis, we are trying to get evidence

0:41:140:41:17

together and one of the things we

have discovered is it is difficult

0:41:170:41:21

to get evidence about the issues of

knife crime in the numerical terms

0:41:210:41:24

but the other thing is the gang

culture to which we refer is

0:41:240:41:27

changing fast, more and more young

people get involved in gangs, the

0:41:270:41:31

sense that the mechanics in the way

gangs operate is changing, a lot of

0:41:310:41:35

it has tended to be with postcodes

within particular states. That is

0:41:350:41:39

changing and we are finding in

Westminster in the centre of London

0:41:390:41:42

Berra links between gangs and groups

in Suffolk, what one might call the

0:41:420:41:50

free Suffolk Ipswich and place like

that, where a lot of the drugs trade

0:41:500:41:54

goes on. This is where the work

being done by this commission is

0:41:540:41:57

going to be invaluable feeding into

the Home Office in order to get some

0:41:570:41:59

laws that will work for the future

but also being flexible.

Are you in

0:41:590:42:04

favour of legislating? Are you in

favour of this suggestion of

0:42:040:42:07

ensuring that knives are not left

out on the shop floor, or do you not

0:42:070:42:11

think this is a key part of the

proposal to try and bring down knife

0:42:110:42:19

crime?

To be honest, I think there

is now almost an epidemic of knife

0:42:190:42:22

crime in London in particular, and

not that we need to do something for

0:42:220:42:25

something's sake but the

availability of knives is pretty

0:42:250:42:26

horrific and to try and do something

along the lines Vicky has pointed

0:42:260:42:29

out would be a sensible first step.

How bad is it in Lewisham?

It is

0:42:290:42:35

pretty bad, it's the whole reason I

started talking about this issue

0:42:350:42:38

because very quickly after I was

first elected as an MP two young

0:42:380:42:41

people were murdered, now it is

seven young people, but it's the

0:42:410:42:45

impact it has on the whole

community. Every time I go into a

0:42:450:42:49

school children know somebody else

who has been murdered. This is the

0:42:490:42:53

reason why in terms of the work of

the commission, and the reason why

0:42:530:42:56

it is really important that it is

cross-party, is we can't keep having

0:42:560:43:00

strategies that are just four years.

Winnie to have long-term strategies

0:43:000:43:04

that are ten or 20 years and if you

look at Scotland in terms of the

0:43:040:43:08

violence reduction unit and public

health model approach they have

0:43:080:43:11

adopted that could be something that

we could learn from nationally. --

0:43:110:43:15

we need to have. That involves

having long-term strategies that

0:43:150:43:19

really do get to the cause in terms

of young people and their life

0:43:190:43:24

experiences.

It's something we

talked about on this programme,

0:43:240:43:27

emulating some of the work done in

Scotland. In terms of some of the

0:43:270:43:31

voluntary agreements that have been

put in place by the government,

0:43:310:43:35

Theresa May mentioned with

retailers, voluntary agreements

0:43:350:43:38

aren't enough, they? There must be

something tougher.

Voluntary

0:43:380:43:41

agreements can work and particularly

as we said, in areas where there

0:43:410:43:47

have been deaths, not least pressure

brought by local residents who have

0:43:470:43:50

said we expect the voluntary

agreement to hold fire. Probably

0:43:500:43:54

having... I don't want to jump in

before the commission reports, part

0:43:540:43:57

of the idea is to have a really good

evidence -based...

When is it due to

0:43:570:44:02

report?

Over the summer.

It has been

the last two or three years, we are

0:44:020:44:08

getting evidence together and we

hope we will be able to act on it.

0:44:080:44:12

We will follow it then.

0:44:120:44:14

Nine months on from the fire

at Grenfell Tower, only 62

0:44:140:44:16

of the 209 households in need

of housing have moved

0:44:160:44:18

into permanent homes.

0:44:180:44:19

And now it seems the local economy

is also facing a serious downturn.

0:44:190:44:22

City Hall this week announced

further funding to support local

0:44:220:44:26

businesses, on top of support

from the council.

0:44:260:44:28

But will it be enough

for the already deprived

0:44:280:44:30

area to make a recovery?

0:44:300:44:32

Tanjil Rashid reports,

and I should warn you that there

0:44:320:44:34

are some disturbing descriptions

in the film.

0:44:340:44:38

It's quiet in the vicinity

of Grenfell Tower.

0:44:380:44:40

Some of the shops are shuttered,

others are for sale.

0:44:400:44:44

People seem to be keeping away.

0:44:440:44:47

After the fire last summer,

there was a flurry of interest

0:44:470:44:50

in housing issues locally but one

thing that some say has been

0:44:500:44:53

overlooked is the perspective

of local businesses.

0:44:530:44:56

Many of them, according

to the Portobello Business Centre,

0:44:560:44:59

are now on the brink of closure

following a downturn of up to 70%

0:44:590:45:02

in some cases.

0:45:020:45:04

And adding to their

difficulties, they say

0:45:040:45:06

it is now proving virtually

impossible to recruit staff to work

0:45:060:45:09

here so close to Grenfell Tower.

0:45:090:45:13

Narain Jagatiani has been fixing

cars right by Grenfell Tower

0:45:130:45:16

for more than 30 years.

0:45:160:45:19

There was a flame of nearly

40, 50, 60 feet high.

0:45:190:45:23

There was a smell, you know.

0:45:230:45:25

The smell of bodies

and the smell of plastic.

0:45:250:45:30

But the business has struggled

on in the face of the losses,

0:45:300:45:33

not just the lives of his

neighbours but also customers

0:45:330:45:35

who have been keeping away.

0:45:350:45:39

We lost, in the takings,

£57,000 in the fire,

0:45:390:45:41

in 12 weeks to 15 weeks.

0:45:410:45:45

You've got to look at it

from a different angle.

0:45:450:45:47

You've got to look at it how you're

going to go forward.

0:45:470:45:50

This is something that's behind,

and you've got to look forward.

0:45:500:45:53

You can't dwell on the thing and say

it's not going to work.

0:45:530:45:56

As of this week, City Hall

is providing a fund of more

0:45:560:45:59

than £100,000 to support local

businesses, on top of

0:45:590:46:01

further grants and rates

relief from the council.

0:46:010:46:05

We've put together a package of over

half a million pounds in order

0:46:050:46:09

to give them - to support them

and to get them back on their feet.

0:46:090:46:13

Any council tenant who's

obviously been effected,

0:46:130:46:14

a lot of those in proximity

to the fire, we gave them rent-free

0:46:140:46:17

for the first eight months

of the year

0:46:170:46:20

with a transitional rent-free going

on until September and the cost

0:46:200:46:22

of that is about £200,000.

0:46:220:46:28

We've also given them rates relief

but importantly we are trying

0:46:280:46:30

to give them support in their local

area because clearly the local

0:46:300:46:32

area has been affected

by a large decant of people.

0:46:320:46:35

It really isn't good enough,

and in the same way as the council

0:46:350:46:39

hasn't got to terms with its housing

needs of the area,

0:46:390:46:42

they haven't come to terms

with the business needs either.

0:46:420:46:44

I would say it's been slow

and it's been grudging.

0:46:440:46:49

Yes, they did give rates

relief for businesses

0:46:490:46:53

but in the immediate area,

and I'm talking about the impact

0:46:530:46:56

on a wider area, I see

vacancies and empty offices,

0:46:560:47:01

empty shops, empty business premises

so you only need to look around

0:47:010:47:06

the area to see the impact

that it's had.

0:47:060:47:09

The council say they do

have an additional fund of £80,000

0:47:090:47:12

precisely to support businesses

affected in a wider area.

0:47:120:47:17

For Shaun Bailey, a London Assembly

member who grew up around here,

0:47:170:47:20

local businesses provide vital

opportunities to young people.

0:47:200:47:25

I've worked up and down

the Portobello Road.

0:47:250:47:27

I used to work in a fantastic

comic shop over there

0:47:270:47:30

for years, it was great fun.

0:47:300:47:31

But the real thing about local

business is how much work it brings

0:47:310:47:35

here and how much vibrancy it brings

to the area.

0:47:350:47:37

The suppression of business

after the Grenfell disaster

0:47:370:47:39

is definitely a challenge for local

businesses, but one

0:47:390:47:41

of the real ongoing challenges

is the advent of change.

0:47:410:47:49

of the real ongoing challenges

is the advent of chains.

0:47:490:47:51

If you run a small coffee shop

around here, you now have to keep

0:47:510:47:54

compete with Cafe Nero

and Starbucks.

0:47:540:47:56

The regeneration needs

of the community are massive

0:47:560:47:58

and how local business can help

is by making sure it isn't

0:47:580:48:01

an excuse for gentrification.

0:48:010:48:02

People here want local businesses

and housing as well that

0:48:020:48:04

reflect their needs,

not the needs of a community that's

0:48:040:48:06

remote to this place.

0:48:060:48:07

The challenge of regenerating north

Kensington following the Grenfell

0:48:070:48:10

tragedy will have to contend

with forces larger and longer

0:48:100:48:12

lasting than the fire itself.

0:48:120:48:20

It is clear the impact of the fire

will be felt for a very long time,

0:48:210:48:25

but looking at businesses in the

area, because there has been a focus

0:48:250:48:29

on housing, how is it important to

you to keep businesses from closing,

0:48:290:48:33

and some say they are on the brink

of closure.

I think it is critical,

0:48:330:48:37

and a bit unfair to say it has been

grudging, the actions of Kensington

0:48:370:48:42

and Chelsea. I accept this is a huge

task for any local authority. Where

0:48:420:48:49

I think Shaun Bailey got it right in

his comments is the worst thing

0:48:490:48:54

would be for this to be used as an

excuse for further gentrification.

0:48:540:49:01

There's a broader issue about small

business rates that we have seen

0:49:010:49:05

within London as a whole...

But

should there be special exemptions

0:49:050:49:09

given on a continuing basis?

One of

the difficulties is you do want to

0:49:090:49:13

get back to some sort of normalcy

before too long so I don't beg you

0:49:130:49:17

want to have essentially businesses

that will be unviable being kept

0:49:170:49:23

going year upon year.

But would you

like a bit of an extension?

Yes, we

0:49:230:49:28

all realise that the comedy and

magnitude of what happened at

0:49:280:49:31

Grenfell Tower, and many times your

viewers travel up and down the A40

0:49:310:49:40

and see the tower still there, a lot

of work needs to be done. But there

0:49:400:49:45

has been progress, on small business

rates. I have campaigned in places

0:49:450:49:50

like Westminster where we now have

257 businesses...

0:49:500:49:59

257 businesses... The city of

Westminster is literally half a mile

0:49:590:50:01

away from the boundary.

We heard

testimony about how important local

0:50:010:50:06

business is because it will help

with the regeneration and provides

0:50:060:50:09

jobs. Is there more City Hall and

the mayor Sadiq Khan could be doing

0:50:090:50:16

specifically to help local

businesses?

I think one of the

0:50:160:50:18

things that needs to happen is

people need to be having the

0:50:180:50:21

conversations with the local

businesses to find out what it is

0:50:210:50:24

may need to be able to survive. I

was talking to somebody who said

0:50:240:50:29

they didn't really feel those

conversations and dialogue had taken

0:50:290:50:34

place. Sometimes in terms of

politics, politicians can put the

0:50:340:50:38

finger in the air about what should

happen but having conversations with

0:50:380:50:43

local businesses...

Shouldn't they

be more proactive at City Hall then?

0:50:430:50:49

People are asking for further

exemptions and extensions on things

0:50:490:50:53

like rates coming back now to the

area and more money so what more

0:50:530:50:58

needs to be said? Why doesn't City

Hall react?

City Hall have already

0:50:580:51:04

given a lot of support, I'm not

saying it's necessarily enough but

0:51:040:51:08

it is not one of the poorest

councils. They need to be investing

0:51:080:51:13

more in terms of supporting local

businesses.

What about that compared

0:51:130:51:18

to housing, because the focus has

been on housing, rightly so, and a

0:51:180:51:22

lot of people are still not in

permanent accommodation. Do you see

0:51:220:51:27

that as the priority?

Of course

day-to-day it is a priority but you

0:51:270:51:32

need to develop a community and you

are not going to get a community

0:51:320:51:37

that is restored and proud for the

future unless you get business

0:51:370:51:40

right. £300 million has been given

in small business rates relief. In

0:51:400:51:49

Kensington and Chelsea will be a

similar amount of money. I would say

0:51:490:51:52

to everyone living nearby, please

use your local businesses, go to the

0:51:520:51:56

local cafe, go to the local

newsagents instead of Tesco or

0:51:560:52:01

Waitrose to buy your paper on a

Sunday morning. Use the local

0:52:010:52:05

services as far as you can because

otherwise they will die off.

How

0:52:050:52:10

would you stimulate the local

economy?

When you were talking about

0:52:100:52:16

housing, there is concern over the

inaccuracy of the figures, this week

0:52:160:52:20

Sajid Javid said there are only 25

houses, they haven't been placed in

0:52:200:52:27

housing, and the figure you show --

quoted earlier is entirely different

0:52:270:52:35

so we need to be transparent and

make sure the people are rehoused as

0:52:350:52:38

soon as possible and in housing they

are happy with as well.

Those

0:52:380:52:42

figures, fewer than half have been

rehoused in permanent accommodation,

0:52:420:52:47

it's not good enough, is it?

I think

Vicky touched on something that a

0:52:470:52:52

lot of people are holding back, in

temporary accommodation and want to

0:52:520:52:58

return to the flat they were before,

but your point is right, that you

0:52:580:53:04

alluded to the least, that actually

not that we ignore the housing but

0:53:040:53:10

let's get the community working

again and not just have the focus

0:53:100:53:15

only on the housing, let's get small

business is thriving in that area

0:53:150:53:18

again.

Time to move on.

0:53:180:53:19

A damning report into Harmondsworth

detention centre, which holds

0:53:190:53:22

migrants deemed to be in the country

illegally, has highlighted

0:53:220:53:24

serious concerns over

the treatment of its residents,

0:53:240:53:26

with evidence of prolonged

detentions and poor management.

0:53:260:53:28

Jerry Thomas has more.

0:53:280:53:31

Harmondsworth Immigration

Removal Centre, the largest

0:53:310:53:32

of its kind in Europe.

0:53:320:53:35

This week a report by Her Majesty's

Inspectorate of Prisons

0:53:350:53:38

into the privately-run centre has

prompted concern to the wellbeing

0:53:380:53:40

of its estimated 555 male detainees.

0:53:400:53:48

A series of damning observations

include filthy prison-like

0:53:500:53:52

conditions, some detainees held

for excessively long periods,

0:53:520:53:54

23 men had been detained for over

a year, and one man had been held

0:53:540:53:58

for over four and a half years.

0:53:580:53:59

Inadequate safeguarding

of detainees, and excessive use

0:53:590:54:01

of handcuffing, especially

for outside appointments.

0:54:010:54:07

I think the report on Harmondsworth

was shameful, it revealed

0:54:070:54:10

shameful conditions.

0:54:100:54:13

People held for years and years,

over four and a half years in one

0:54:130:54:16

case, very poor medical

conditions, rat infested.

0:54:160:54:20

Those conditions are a disgrace.

0:54:200:54:23

These conditions reveal

that we have a broken

0:54:230:54:26

immigration detention system.

0:54:260:54:30

A Home Office spokesperson said...

0:54:300:54:32

I'm joined by Martha Spurrier,

Director of the Human Rights

0:54:550:54:57

campaign group Liberty.

0:54:570:55:04

Welcome to the programme. Would you

like to see a time limit on the

0:55:040:55:08

length of detention?

Yes, we are

urging the Government to put a 28

0:55:080:55:12

day time limit under tension.

Currently the UK is the only country

0:55:120:55:17

in Europe that doesn't put a time

limit on detention. The Government

0:55:170:55:22

is detaining tens of thousands of

people every year, that includes

0:55:220:55:25

survivors of trafficking, torture

and rape, asylum seekers, and the

0:55:250:55:30

brutality of the detention estate is

extraordinary.

What time limit is

0:55:300:55:34

the average in other European

countries?

It ranges from 28 days up

0:55:340:55:39

to about a year but having a

definite -- indefinite detention

0:55:390:55:47

makes us an outlier?

Would you

support that?

Often the whole thing

0:55:470:55:53

can jog on, and I think would not be

acceptable is to have a short

0:55:530:55:59

maximum period and then people being

allowed to leave and probably going

0:55:590:56:04

to ground.

But what about a specific

time limit that was somewhere

0:56:040:56:08

between, let's say six months?

I

agree with that. The Home Office

0:56:080:56:15

have omitted a lot of it makes

uncomfortable reading, they will

0:56:150:56:18

have to have a look, and I'm not in

anyway disagreeing with some of the

0:56:180:56:23

dangerous conclusions that have come

up in this report. However it

0:56:230:56:25

strikes me that we have a system

that allows indeterminate delays. We

0:56:250:56:33

want a quick, fair and just system

but we need to get people

0:56:330:56:37

essentially having a determination

of their position at the earliest

0:56:370:56:41

possible opportunity, not allowing

the thing to drag on with constant

0:56:410:56:44

appeals and this is of course why

you have this dreadful situation of

0:56:440:56:47

one man being in there for four and

a half years. Presumably that's an

0:56:470:56:52

ongoing legal process which is not

good for him nor the rest of us, who

0:56:520:56:58

want to have a system we can be

proud of and feel is fair and just

0:56:580:57:01

but we need to get it sorted out.

Martha, is it practical to put a

0:57:010:57:06

time

0:57:060:57:15

time limit on it at the moment,

while the legal system is such that

0:57:160:57:18

asylum seekers or people claiming

asylum can appeal decisions and that

0:57:180:57:20

means they are held in these

detention centres for possibly

0:57:200:57:23

months, even years?

It is absolutely

practical to have a time limit, as

0:57:230:57:25

we can see in other countries in

Europe. The majority of people who

0:57:250:57:28

go into detention are released into

the community and don't go

0:57:280:57:32

underground. 95% of migrants in the

community report to immigration

0:57:320:57:39

officers so they are kept track of.

There is this bogeyman idea of a

0:57:390:57:43

flood of people who will go

underground, it just isn't a reality

0:57:430:57:47

and the human cost of detention is

so great, and the fact we have no

0:57:470:57:51

time limit means the Home Office

allows these cases to drag on and

0:57:510:57:56

people's lives are destroyed.

But

you do accept these detention

0:57:560:57:59

centres are there because people

have been overstaying their welcome

0:57:590:58:03

or they are here illegally and need

to be detained?

This isn't about

0:58:030:58:08

whether people

0:58:080:58:13

whether people should be here or be

deported...

That is part of the

0:58:150:58:18

immigration system, isn't it?

It is

different from the question of

0:58:180:58:20

whether they should be detained.

Let's have a fair and just system to

0:58:200:58:22

remove them, or if they can stay let

them have their due process but

0:58:220:58:28

infringing their rights to liberty,

destroying physical and mental

0:58:280:58:30

health in the process is not

necessary, effective or just.

What

0:58:300:58:36

does Labour want to see happen to

detention centres?

I think detention

0:58:360:58:42

centres in the way that they are at

the moment, saying they are worse

0:58:420:58:49

than prisons, people should not be

detained in such an inhumane way.

So

0:58:490:58:56

what would you do to these people?

We wouldn't have indefinite

0:58:560:59:01

detention, we would have a time

limit on that. We think it is

0:59:010:59:06

extremely important, and terms of

the problems with the legal system

0:59:060:59:09

we need to speed it up and get it

right.

But would you would still

0:59:090:59:14

keep these detention centres and

hold people in this way?

As much as

0:59:140:59:18

possible we wouldn't be putting

people in detention centres, you

0:59:180:59:22

need to deal the immigration system

in a tighter and quicker fashion.

We

0:59:220:59:27

have discussed the legal

difficulties but is it really right

0:59:270:59:30

morally to hold people in the sort

of rat infested conditions that have

0:59:300:59:35

been described? Vicky says it is

worse than prison. Is it defendable?

0:59:350:59:47

Harmondsworth is clearly an

exception, but the reality is we

0:59:470:59:50

have hundreds of thousands of people

who have gone to ground, many of

0:59:500:59:54

whom are playing a full role in the

community but actually cannot work

0:59:540:59:59

other than on the black economy

because they are unofficial

0:59:591:00:02

individuals, then every so often the

demand comes up, we must have an

1:00:021:00:07

amnesty for the hundreds of

thousands who have overstayed. If

1:00:071:00:10

you don't have a fair system, it's

not right for those who come here

1:00:101:00:14

legally and do play the system by

the rules if you are allowing others

1:00:141:00:19

to stay on an unfair basis and part

of the difficulty is you have a

1:00:191:00:23

legal system that allows this whole

thing to drag on.

Martha, pick up on

1:00:231:00:27

the point about the fact there would

be many people who would go

1:00:271:00:31

underground

1:00:311:00:36

underground or who are already

underground and difficult to detect.

1:00:361:00:38

It is just not the evidence of

what's happening now. You describe

1:00:381:00:41

the idea of Harmondsworth being an

exception, that's not the case.

1:00:411:00:45

There was a panorama programme about

this, about denial of medical

1:00:451:00:53

treatment and unlawful use of

restraints, it is rife in the

1:00:531:00:57

centres. The consensus is building

that time limit is the humane and

1:00:571:01:01

civilised thing to do. We've had

faith leaders, doctors and

1:01:011:01:05

lawyers...

We need to do this in

tandem with a time limit on the

1:01:051:01:09

legal process as well.

This is now

the consensus.

We will have to leave

1:01:091:01:16

it there, back to Sarah.

1:01:161:01:24

it there, back to Sarah. Welcome

back.

1:01:251:01:28

A row has erupted in the influential

Brexit Select Committee of MPs.

1:01:281:01:32

The majority of pro-Remain MPs

on the committee, led

1:01:321:01:34

by the Labour Chairman Hilary Benn,

have backed a report saying

1:01:341:01:36

that the Article 50 process may

need to be extended,

1:01:361:01:39

so that Brexit would happen

later than March 2019.

1:01:391:01:41

But that infuriated the minority

of pro-Brexit MPs on the committee,

1:01:411:01:44

who have published their own report,

which says that delaying

1:01:441:01:46

Brexit would not respect

the referendum result.

1:01:461:01:48

One of those pro-Brexit MPs

on the committee, Jacob Rees-Mogg,

1:01:481:01:50

said: "The majority report

is the prospectus

1:01:501:01:52

for the vassal state.

1:01:521:01:53

It is a future not worthy of us

as a country, and I am sure that

1:01:531:01:57

Theresa May will rightly reject

a report by the high

1:01:571:01:59

priests of Remain."

1:01:591:02:06

The majority report is an attempt

to keep us in the EU

1:02:061:02:10

by sleight of hand."

1:02:101:02:10

The Committee Chairman is Labour MP

Hilary Benn and he joins me now.

1:02:101:02:13

Have you been called a high priest

before?

Many things but never a high

1:02:131:02:17

priest. He says you are trying to

delay Brexit possibly indefinitely

1:02:171:02:22

because you are a passionate

Remainer. That's not the case, not

1:02:221:02:26

about undermining the referendum

result, is about the problem we

1:02:261:02:29

face, there are seven months to go

until the Article 50 negotiations

1:02:291:02:33

are due to end. There is a whole

host of issues that have not yet

1:02:331:02:36

been addressed. We haven't started

negotiating our future economic

1:02:361:02:40

relationship, what will happen to

trade, services, 80% of the British

1:02:401:02:44

economy's services, how will we work

together on defence, foreign policy

1:02:441:02:48

and security, really important in

the wake of the Salisbury attack,

1:02:481:02:57

cooperating on aviation safety, food

safety, medicines, research, and the

1:02:571:02:59

question of how to keep an open

border between Northern Ireland and

1:02:591:03:01

the Republic.

Aren't you setting up

false deadline by saying this must

1:03:011:03:04

be set out by October?

We didn't set

the deadline, Michel Barnier said

1:03:041:03:07

the deadline of the sort of the

negotiating process because he

1:03:071:03:10

pointed out when the deal is agreed

it must be ratified by the European

1:03:101:03:18

-- European Council. If there are a

whole load of things that have not

1:03:191:03:23

yet been negotiated the government

could ask for an extension to the

1:03:231:03:25

Article 50 process and one of the

things that we say is when David

1:03:251:03:29

Davis came to give evidence to us,

he said we don't want to be

1:03:291:03:33

negotiating really important issues

in the transition period because the

1:03:331:03:36

balance of power changes. What we

are seeing is the best way to get

1:03:361:03:40

the best deal for the British people

is to do so when you have the

1:03:401:03:43

maximum negotiating clout and that

is during the Article 50 period.

1:03:431:03:47

Without a hard deadline of the two

years since triggering Article 50,

1:03:471:03:52

the EU could just delay and delay

and delay this to the point that it

1:03:521:03:56

is a never-ending process that sees

as not leaving the EU.

The body

1:03:561:04:01

wants a never-ending process.

Might

be some in the EU who wouldn't mind,

1:04:011:04:04

they would prefer it to a full

Brexit.

They might but the

1:04:041:04:08

referendum decision has been made.

We have seen another example this

1:04:081:04:12

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

Secretary, said we would not be able

1:04:121:04:15

to put checks on goods coming in to

Dover. Knows that the customs

1:04:151:04:21

relations are not ready so these are

serious issues that face the

1:04:211:04:24

country. Or the businesses I speak

to so we understand how it works

1:04:241:04:31

today and can you tell us how it

will work tomorrow when we have left

1:04:311:04:35

and the answer is we don't know

because we haven't negotiated it. It

1:04:351:04:37

is about taking a sufficient time to

get a decent deal. Everybody knows

1:04:371:04:42

that the detailed negotiation is

going to take place during the

1:04:421:04:45

transition period because you are

not going to sort all of this out

1:04:451:04:48

between now and October. Would you

need to impose another hard deadline

1:04:481:04:51

in order to keep minds focused.

Not

allow the balance of power to shift

1:04:511:04:59

to those in the EU who could delay

and delay if this is an open-ended

1:04:591:05:02

process?

You certainly could do that

and this would only happen if the

1:05:021:05:05

government were to ask for it. It

would be the agreement of all of the

1:05:051:05:08

other EU 27. Of all of the other

member states. But it is about

1:05:081:05:12

having flexibility, remember the row

when the government put a hard

1:05:121:05:15

deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

of March? Lots of people including

1:05:151:05:20

Conservative said this is not

sensible. When you are engaged in a

1:05:201:05:23

negotiation that is as complex and

challenging as this, to set an

1:05:231:05:26

absolutely hard deadline doesn't

help you get the right outcome for

1:05:261:05:30

the British people.

There is another

accusation from the people on your

1:05:301:05:33

committee who don't agree with your

conclusions who published

1:05:331:05:40

conclusions who published this

minority report, which is that you

1:05:411:05:42

are trying to keep Britain in the

Single Market and customs union by

1:05:421:05:44

the back door using the Irish border

issue to do that. It would be your

1:05:441:05:47

preferred outcome that we stayed in

this customs union and Single

1:05:471:05:50

Market.

It is my preferred point,

position but they have not reached a

1:05:501:05:57

decision in the review. The

government set a high bar on the

1:05:571:06:00

Irish border, it wants no checks and

no infrastructure, and I agree. As

1:06:001:06:04

things stand at the moment, because

the government hasn't come forward

1:06:041:06:07

with a proposal as to how to deliver

that in practice, we don't see how

1:06:071:06:11

you can reconcile that objective

with the Government's commitment to

1:06:111:06:15

leave the Single Market and customs

union. This will come back again and

1:06:151:06:18

again in the negotiations until it

is resolved. My own personal view is

1:06:181:06:22

staying in a customs union would

provide part of the answer to

1:06:221:06:25

keeping that border open, which is

what everyone says they want.

It is

1:06:251:06:30

a pretty rotten state of affairs

when your Select Committee produces

1:06:301:06:33

majority and minority report and you

are clearly absolutely split on the

1:06:331:06:36

principles of this.

It is not

unprecedented but I wish we were

1:06:361:06:41

able to reach agreement. You know

what, the referendum showed the

1:06:411:06:45

nation was divided down the middle,

the Cabinet is divided, there are

1:06:451:06:48

different views in Parliament, it's

not entirely surprising that we find

1:06:481:06:51

that reflected in the Select

Committee I have the honour to be

1:06:511:06:55

the chair of.

Thank you, we will

pick up some Brexit issues and some

1:06:551:06:58

more of what will be happening with

Brexit this week with the panel.

1:06:581:07:03

Isabel Oakeshott, Hilary Benn has a

point, doesn't he, that his

1:07:031:07:06

committee is no war split and,

frankly, the Cabinet, the country or

1:07:061:07:10

both political parties are on this

matter?

I think that is a fair point

1:07:101:07:15

but on the substantive

recommendation about delaying Brexit

1:07:151:07:17

further, I cannot see how that could

possibly strengthen our position to

1:07:171:07:21

have us begging for more time here.

I think the one thing that I am sure

1:07:211:07:27

you here, Hilary Benn, when you are

on the doorstep is why can't they

1:07:271:07:31

get on with this? People don't want

this process to be any more

1:07:311:07:34

elongated. If anything it just

increases uncertainty for business.

1:07:341:07:39

Hillary.

Somebody summed this up

beautifully to me the other day, for

1:07:391:07:45

something that is apparently so

simple, it's really, really

1:07:451:07:48

complicated, isn't it? Over 45 years

we have built this network of

1:07:481:07:53

relationships, laws, the ways

businesses operate. I was at a

1:07:531:07:57

conference of the creative

industries on Thursday and they are

1:07:571:07:59

concerned about intellectual

property and broadcasting into

1:07:591:08:02

Europe, and the ability of musicians

to go on to travel. All sorts of

1:08:021:08:08

questions people have got from a

perfectly legitimate ones, about how

1:08:081:08:10

it is going to work and is not

entirely surprising, whatever the

1:08:101:08:13

frustration people feel, and I

recognise that, it will take time to

1:08:131:08:16

sort it out in a way that works for

us. It's not about working for

1:08:161:08:20

Europe, we want a deal that we can

both agree on, but it's got to work

1:08:201:08:24

for us and look after our interests,

that's our job.

Lucy, David Davis is

1:08:241:08:30

on his way back to Brussels for more

negotiations trying to sign off with

1:08:301:08:33

Michel Barnier the transition period

of the deal there. What is the issue

1:08:331:08:40

that must be decided before the

Summit of EU leaders at the end of

1:08:401:08:43

the week?

The main stumbling block

is the Irish border question which

1:08:431:08:46

Hillary pointed out. Labour has a

position which goes some way to

1:08:461:08:51

solving the issue, which is to

remain in the customs union.

A

1:08:511:08:55

customs union.

A customs union,

forgive me. It is hard to see how

1:08:551:09:00

that will be established in any kind

of technical, substantive way. We

1:09:001:09:03

will have to rely on good to stumble

past that at this stage. My

1:09:031:09:07

understanding is there are UK fears

that Dublin may receive backing from

1:09:071:09:11

the Germans and French this week

that will cause more problems on

1:09:111:09:15

that but it is essential that the

transition deal is formally agreed

1:09:151:09:19

at the European Council this week

for two reasons. Firstly, we need to

1:09:191:09:23

move the talks on to the trade

agreement, we want to reach. And

1:09:231:09:27

secondly, it is vital for business

to have the certainty of what the

1:09:271:09:30

situation will be regarding the UK's

relationship with the EU up to

1:09:301:09:36

September 2020. This is the last

moment UK businesses have said the

1:09:361:09:40

government can wait to give firm

signals on it before they revert to

1:09:401:09:45

contingency plans.

Hillary talks up

negotiating leverage and we gave our

1:09:451:09:49

leveraged away when we invoked

Article 50 without pre-negotiations,

1:09:491:09:53

because we put the clock on

ourselves. With and have two years

1:09:531:09:58

to negotiate everything and Michel

Barnier set the date and we have two

1:09:581:10:01

then go to him to potentially beg

for more time and I think we have

1:10:011:10:05

really put ourselves in a difficult

position by doing that.

Given that

1:10:051:10:10

situation, would it be better to go,

in your words, begging for more

1:10:101:10:14

time, or stick to their deadline so

that people's mines are concentrated

1:10:141:10:17

on getting the deal done?

I think

the deadline, the date we are

1:10:171:10:21

supposed to be leaving, was set by

the government in the withdrawal

1:10:211:10:24

bill for political reasons. I think

that was all performative really. I

1:10:241:10:29

don't think there is is Dummigan

reason why there cannot be flexible

1:10:291:10:34

to. If we can negotiate a transition

deal in the short term, there is no

1:10:341:10:38

reason why we can't, as Hilary said,

I now the details in the transition

1:10:381:10:43

period.

What other sticking points

on the withdrawal agreement? It

1:10:431:10:46

seems David Davis is saying this

week he is relaxed about a

1:10:461:10:49

transition period not lusting for a

full two years, only up until

1:10:491:10:56

Christmas 2021. It feels a little

bit -- not lusting for a full two

1:10:561:11:01

years. When we get it is crunch

decisions with the withdrawal

1:11:011:11:05

agreement and the negotiation and

transition agreement, that the UK

1:11:051:11:08

caves at the last minute. Where can

we see a win for the UK in these

1:11:081:11:12

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

crunch decisions elements in

1:11:121:11:16

Parliament try and cause us to cave.

That is a difficulty government has.

1:11:161:11:20

It has been undermined by its own

backbenchers, we have the Brexit

1:11:201:11:24

committee coming up with divided

reports suggesting more delay. I

1:11:241:11:28

think there will be massive push

back on that. I don't think it will

1:11:281:11:31

happen. There is no way any

extension of this time period is

1:11:311:11:36

acceptable to Theresa May's

Brexiteer MPs to whom she is in

1:11:361:11:40

hock, so that can't happen. The

problem is, Matt, it is just going

1:11:401:11:44

to expand to fill the time

available. We need these deadlines,

1:11:441:11:48

uncomfortable as they may be, and in

an ideal world we might have a few

1:11:481:11:52

extra days here or there to fine

tune things, but ultimately nobody

1:11:521:11:56

on your side of the argument is

going to be happy with the time

1:11:561:12:00

frame. It will simply expand and

expand and expand until the de facto

1:12:001:12:03

we just stay in the.

Lucy, is there

any prospect, given where we are at

1:12:031:12:07

the moment waiting to sign off a

deal on the transition, that we can

1:12:071:12:12

have a fully comprehensive trade

agreement in place by October to go

1:12:121:12:17

for ratification to the European

Parliament?

I think it's looking

1:12:171:12:20

increasingly unlikely and there is

lots of things that will not be

1:12:201:12:23

ready in time, today there are

reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:231:12:27

briefed on the fact that Customs and

border arrangements are not going to

1:12:271:12:31

be in place by Brexit day next

March. There is still a lot of

1:12:311:12:36

questions around that. Going back to

the question of the polarisation in

1:12:361:12:40

Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

country over Brexit and some of the

1:12:401:12:43

positions government has put forward

so far, there are still so many

1:12:431:12:47

questions left unanswered. Theresa

May hasn't really filled in any

1:12:471:12:50

detail about what you would like to

see with trade and customs and huge

1:12:501:12:54

question marks over how the

government envisages immigration

1:12:541:12:57

working at the Brexit. A lot more

needs to be done to fill in more

1:12:571:13:01

detail.

Thank you to all of my

guests, Lucy Fisher, Isabel

1:13:011:13:05

Oakeshott, Matt Zarb-Cousin is an

Hilary Benn are still on the set.

1:13:051:13:08

That's all for today.

1:13:081:13:09

Join me again next Sunday

at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:091:13:12

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:121:13:15

Sarah Smith and Jo Coburn's guests are Foreign Office minister Sir Alan Duncan MP and chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee Yvette Cooper MP. The political panel consists of political journalist and commentator Isabel Oakeshott, former adviser to Jeremy Corbyn Matthew Zarb-Cousin and senior political correspondent for the Times Lucy Fisher.