Sarah Smith and Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Jack Straw, Sam Gyimah and Baroness Neville-Jones.
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Morning, everyone. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:38 | |
I'm Sarah Smith and this
is the Sunday Politics. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:41 | |
I'll be bringing you up to speed
on all the political | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
comings and goings in
Westminster and beyond. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:46 | |
Coming up in today's programme. | 0:00:46 | 0:00:49 | |
As the investigation into the nerve
agent attack in Salisbury continues, | 0:00:49 | 0:00:52 | |
we'll be taking to the former
Home Secretary Jack Straw | 0:00:52 | 0:00:55 | |
and former Security Minister,
Pauline Neville Jones. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:59 | |
Is there room for more spending? | 0:00:59 | 0:01:00 | |
Ahead of his spring statement this
week, the Chancellor Philip Hammond | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
has hinted austerity could be over
as he said there was "light | 0:01:03 | 0:01:06 | |
at the end of the tunnel". | 0:01:06 | 0:01:14 | |
We join the Universities minister
Sam Gyimah on what's jokingly been | 0:01:14 | 0:01:16 | |
called a "punishment
tour" of the country - | 0:01:16 | 0:01:18 | |
trying to attract students
to the Conservative Party. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:23 | |
Most of my friends always slander
the Conservative name saying it's | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
only for middle aged men who want to
benefit from themselves. At first I | 0:01:26 | 0:01:30 | |
was like, I'm not going to say it.
One of my flatmates was like, if you | 0:01:30 | 0:01:35 | |
are not Labour, don't talk to me and
I was like OK. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:38 | |
In London, the Liberal Democrat
leader Vince Cable tells us why he's | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
confident the party can make gains
in May's local elections. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:47 | |
All that coming up in the programme. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:55 | |
And as usual we've got three
Westminster insiders who will take | 0:01:55 | 0:01:58 | |
us behind the headlines and tell us
what's really going on. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:00 | |
Today I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn,
Dia Chakravarty and George Eaton. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
The unfolding events over the past
week in the cathedral city | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
of Salisbury could have been taken
straight from the pages | 0:02:07 | 0:02:09 | |
of a spy thriller. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:11 | |
The poisoning of a Russian former
double agent who had passed secrets | 0:02:11 | 0:02:13 | |
to Britain and moved to Salisbury
after a 2010 spy swap, involved | 0:02:13 | 0:02:17 | |
the use of a sinister nerve agent. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
It has shocked the country
with the finger of suspicion | 0:02:20 | 0:02:23 | |
pointing firmly at Moscow. | 0:02:23 | 0:02:30 | |
The big story of the week started
in Salisbury after a former | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
Russian double agent,
Sergei Skripal, and his daughter | 0:02:34 | 0:02:36 | |
Yulia and the policeman who went
to their aid all mysteriously fell | 0:02:36 | 0:02:39 | |
ill because an as yet
unidentified nerve agent. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:47 | |
12 years ago, Alexander Litvinenko
was killed by polonium 210. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:51 | |
Was this more Russian foul play? | 0:02:51 | 0:02:55 | |
Boris Johnson was quick
to retaliate, saying there could be | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
implications for this summer's
World Cup in Russia. | 0:02:58 | 0:03:01 | |
I think it will be very difficult
to imagine that UK representation | 0:03:01 | 0:03:06 | |
in that event could go ahead
in the normal way. | 0:03:06 | 0:03:09 | |
Did he mean the England team? | 0:03:09 | 0:03:11 | |
The Prime Minister explained. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:13 | |
The point the Foreign Secretary
was making yesterday was that, | 0:03:13 | 0:03:16 | |
depending on what comes out
in relation to the investigation | 0:03:16 | 0:03:18 | |
into the attack on the two
individuals that took place | 0:03:18 | 0:03:22 | |
in Salisbury, that it might be
appropriate for the government | 0:03:22 | 0:03:25 | |
to look at whether ministers
and other dignitaries should attend | 0:03:25 | 0:03:29 | |
the World Cup in Russia. | 0:03:29 | 0:03:32 | |
Russian state TV mocked the Foreign
Secretary for his comments, | 0:03:32 | 0:03:35 | |
but the government's
firm language persisted. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:39 | |
The use of a nerve agent on UK soil
is a brazen and reckless act. | 0:03:39 | 0:03:45 | |
This was attempted murder
in the most cruel and public way. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:52 | |
We still can't get through a week
without mentioning the B word | 0:03:52 | 0:03:55 | |
as the Chancellor delivered
the latest big Brexit speech. | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
He's determined to get
a good deal for the city. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:01 | |
We still can't get through a week
without mentioning the B word | 0:04:01 | 0:04:05 | |
So I'm clear not only
that it is possible to include | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
financial services within a trade
deal, but that it is very much | 0:04:08 | 0:04:11 | |
in our mutual interest to do so. | 0:04:11 | 0:04:12 | |
Perhaps unsurprisingly
the EU disagreed. | 0:04:12 | 0:04:14 | |
Also when it comes to financial
services, life will be | 0:04:14 | 0:04:17 | |
different after Brexit. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:21 | |
The EU had other things to worry
about, though, as Donald Trump put | 0:04:21 | 0:04:25 | |
forward his highly controversial
plan to make American steel | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
and aluminium great again. | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
Surrounded by metal workers,
the President signed proclamations | 0:04:31 | 0:04:34 | |
to impose a 25% tariff on steel
and a 10% tariff on aluminium | 0:04:34 | 0:04:39 | |
imports into the US. | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
The European Union has not treated
us well and it's been a very, | 0:04:42 | 0:04:46 | |
very unfair trade situation. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:49 | |
Claims of Parliamentary bullying
and sexual harassment hit | 0:04:49 | 0:04:52 | |
the headlines with some
of the allegations going | 0:04:52 | 0:04:54 | |
all the way to the top. | 0:04:54 | 0:04:56 | |
Back in 2010, a woman called
Kate Emms took up the position | 0:04:56 | 0:05:00 | |
as John Bercow's private secretary. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
But she stood down from that post
after less than a year. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:07 | |
Her colleagues told Newsnight
that this is because Mr Bercow's | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
bullying left her unable to continue
in that job. | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
Theresa May enthusiastically
welcomed Saudi royalty | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
to Downing Street this week. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:19 | |
Mohammed bin Salman was even treated
to lunch at the Palace. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:24 | |
Billboards sprung up extolling
in the crown prince's virtues. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:31 | |
Supporters of the man
they call Mr Everything say | 0:05:31 | 0:05:33 | |
he is a great reformer. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:34 | |
But protests surrounding UK arms
sales were also highly visible | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
and with Saudi's intervention
in Yemen ongoing, the visit | 0:05:37 | 0:05:39 | |
angered Jeremy Corbyn. | 0:05:39 | 0:05:40 | |
British arms sales have sharply
increased and British military | 0:05:40 | 0:05:44 | |
advisers are directing the war. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
It cannot be right
that her government... | 0:05:47 | 0:05:51 | |
Mr Speaker, it cannot be right
that her government is colluding | 0:05:51 | 0:05:55 | |
in what the United Nations says
is evidence of war crimes. | 0:05:55 | 0:06:01 | |
Clearly riled, Theresa May
got her own back, calling | 0:06:01 | 0:06:04 | |
Jeremy Corbyn out on the eve
of International Women's Day. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:08 | |
Can I thank the Right
Honourable Gentleman | 0:06:08 | 0:06:10 | |
for telling me that it is
International Women's Day tomorrow. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:13 | |
LAUGHTER. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:16 | |
I think that's what's
called "mansplaining". | 0:06:16 | 0:06:24 | |
Tom, Dia and George
were watching that with me. | 0:06:24 | 0:06:32 | |
Now some insight and analysis into
what's going on behind the | 0:06:35 | 0:06:36 | |
headlines. The big story of the week
is obviously the poisoning of Sergei | 0:06:36 | 0:06:41 | |
Skripal and whether or not Russia
was involved. A lot of people have | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
been quick to assume that President
Putin sanctioned this and it's a | 0:06:44 | 0:06:49 | |
Russian state operation but can we
be sure of that? Reasonably sure, | 0:06:49 | 0:06:53 | |
yes, clearly there is no physical
proof to produce at the moment. I | 0:06:53 | 0:06:56 | |
think by the end of last week the
government were in no doubt that | 0:06:56 | 0:07:01 | |
this was ordered by the Russian
state and in particular Vladimir | 0:07:01 | 0:07:05 | |
Putin, who, under Russian state
rules, has to sign of all foreign | 0:07:05 | 0:07:10 | |
assassinations personally since rule
change in 2006. The reason I think | 0:07:10 | 0:07:14 | |
they are almost certain about this
is quite frankly no one else has a | 0:07:14 | 0:07:18 | |
motive to do that. Who would want to
do a better job in spite of analogy | 0:07:18 | 0:07:23 | |
on an old colonel living quietly in
Salisbury? Not the people have the | 0:07:23 | 0:07:30 | |
modes of delivery to do this, to
pass a nerve agent, chemical | 0:07:30 | 0:07:34 | |
weapons, on Britain's streets.
Thirdly, this will be the killer, | 0:07:34 | 0:07:39 | |
the scientific proof it was an
extremely rare nerve agent, used, | 0:07:39 | 0:07:44 | |
not one of the more widely available
once you see in things like Syria, | 0:07:44 | 0:07:49 | |
it's a rare particular type which
has only been known to be produced | 0:07:49 | 0:07:52 | |
in one or two laboratories in the
world, one of them is in Moscow. The | 0:07:52 | 0:08:00 | |
Moscow foreign spy service. What is
fascinating is not just was Vladimir | 0:08:00 | 0:08:03 | |
Putin responsible? It is why he
wanted us to know he was | 0:08:03 | 0:08:08 | |
responsible, because he left such a
massive calling card, and that has | 0:08:08 | 0:08:12 | |
been really bothering cabinet
ministers in the last week. Dia, we | 0:08:12 | 0:08:19 | |
had from the Chief Medical Officer
who said traces of this nerve agent | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
has been found in the restaurant
where Sergei Skripal and his | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
daughter were eating and 500 people
were there at the same time and they | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
should wash their clothes and clean
their possessions that were with | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
them. There is a small rescue but
there is a risk. Frightening news | 0:08:33 | 0:08:38 | |
like that is what drives home to
people why it matters this is | 0:08:38 | 0:08:40 | |
happening in the UK. Absolutely and
there are so many questions about | 0:08:40 | 0:08:45 | |
this, even before we do want to who
was doing this. That's very | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
important. This also questions about
how the whole thing has been | 0:08:48 | 0:08:53 | |
handled, seven days, and they are
now telling these terrified | 0:08:53 | 0:08:57 | |
residents to wash their clothes and
possessions. Is that going to be | 0:08:57 | 0:09:02 | |
enough? What exactly is this agent?
If we see people in scary laboratory | 0:09:02 | 0:09:08 | |
suits walking around, doing what
they need to do, a quarantine going | 0:09:08 | 0:09:13 | |
on, is it enough to say go and wash
your clothes seven days later? The | 0:09:13 | 0:09:19 | |
communication around it, I
understand it is sensitive, that I | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
think it has been dire. Really quite
woeful. If I was living in Salisbury | 0:09:22 | 0:09:28 | |
I would be very, very worried.
George, the UK Government, once the | 0:09:28 | 0:09:34 | |
investigation has finished and they
decide whether this was a | 0:09:34 | 0:09:38 | |
state-sponsored assassination, they
need to decide how to respond. All | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
we have practically heard of so far
is some rubber mats might not go to | 0:09:41 | 0:09:45 | |
the World Cup in Russia, presumably
will have to do come up with | 0:09:45 | 0:09:50 | |
something better than that --
diplomats. What can we do that | 0:09:50 | 0:09:53 | |
Russia will care about? The pressure
from some Labour Party and | 0:09:53 | 0:09:58 | |
Conservative MPs is to introduce a
version of the Magnitsky Act, which | 0:09:58 | 0:10:04 | |
means it's easier to freeze the
assets of Russians suspected of | 0:10:04 | 0:10:08 | |
human rights abuses or corruption,
and expel them, but Britain is | 0:10:08 | 0:10:12 | |
severely limited and I think it's
worth asking the question why did | 0:10:12 | 0:10:16 | |
Russia choose this moment to target
Britain? We are set to leave the | 0:10:16 | 0:10:21 | |
European Union, huge burdens on
governments, stretching the | 0:10:21 | 0:10:24 | |
government bandwidth to its limits,
and Donald Trump and the USA who we | 0:10:24 | 0:10:30 | |
supposedly have a special
relationship with, is imposing | 0:10:30 | 0:10:33 | |
tariffs on steel and has not made
any robust intervention over this, | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
despite the fact he normally rushes
to tweet when there is a terrorist | 0:10:36 | 0:10:41 | |
attack on British soil after making
unhelpful remarks. He has not been | 0:10:41 | 0:10:45 | |
standing shoulder to shoulder with
Britain in this instance. There has | 0:10:45 | 0:10:49 | |
been a suggestion this should come
up at the next Nato summit in | 0:10:49 | 0:10:54 | |
Brussels, and they could be looking
for some kind of coordinated | 0:10:54 | 0:10:58 | |
response from international allies.
Is that likely? It's difficult to | 0:10:58 | 0:11:04 | |
see at the moment. Russia's strength
here is significant and Vladimir | 0:11:04 | 0:11:09 | |
Putin, such a brazen act, clearly he
does not feel Britain has the | 0:11:09 | 0:11:12 | |
capacity to respond. Last December,
when we were short of gas, the one | 0:11:12 | 0:11:18 | |
country we turn to was Russia. We
will be back to talk about the other | 0:11:18 | 0:11:23 | |
stories during the programme. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:25 | |
The poisoning of Sergei Skripal
and his daughter carries | 0:11:25 | 0:11:27 | |
echoes of the murder
of Alexander Litvinenko, | 0:11:27 | 0:11:29 | |
the ex KGB officer who died
after drinking tea laced | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
with radioactive polonium 210
in a London hotel in 2006. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:35 | |
And this morning, his widow,
Marina Litvinenko urged Theresa May | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
to adopt American-style laws that
are tougher on Russia. | 0:11:38 | 0:11:44 | |
You need to be very selective who
you are friends with. And when you | 0:11:44 | 0:11:50 | |
allow people with money to come to
your country and make a business, | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
you need to be sure what kind of
money these people try to bring to | 0:11:53 | 0:11:57 | |
your country because very often this
money is stolen from Russian people | 0:11:57 | 0:12:02 | |
and sometimes it is a very serious
crime behind it. I'm | 0:12:02 | 0:12:12 | |
crime behind it. I'm absolutely
asking this question to unite this | 0:12:12 | 0:12:17 | |
action already done in the United
States, in Europe. I think the UK | 0:12:17 | 0:12:22 | |
has to do the same steps. | 0:12:22 | 0:12:23 | |
Joining me now from Edinburgh
is the former Home and Foreign | 0:12:23 | 0:12:26 | |
Secretary, Jack Straw. | 0:12:26 | 0:12:28 | |
Thank you very much for joining us
this morning. Do you agree that the | 0:12:28 | 0:12:35 | |
UK needs to introduce tougher laws,
the likes of which the US has? I do | 0:12:35 | 0:12:39 | |
think we should do this now. I think
have to take this very careful | 0:12:39 | 0:12:45 | |
step-by-step way, so I think the
approach of Amber Rudd and her | 0:12:45 | 0:12:50 | |
security minister, Ben Wallace, is
the right one. Jumping to | 0:12:50 | 0:12:55 | |
conclusions in this situation is not
a sensible way to proceed. The other | 0:12:55 | 0:12:58 | |
thing we have to think about very
carefully, when it comes to those | 0:12:58 | 0:13:02 | |
who are saying something must be
done and if you are in government, | 0:13:02 | 0:13:05 | |
you get this all the time, in
situations like this, something has | 0:13:05 | 0:13:09 | |
got to be done, is what happens when
you have to get back to normality? I | 0:13:09 | 0:13:13 | |
often reflect on the sanctions were
imposed to Zimbabwe for the | 0:13:13 | 0:13:19 | |
different situation but there are
parallels. In retrospect, Robert | 0:13:19 | 0:13:28 | |
Mugabe was a very bad man, but in
retrospect I often wonder if it was | 0:13:28 | 0:13:33 | |
a sensible thing to do. In the end
we had to get the troops down again. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:40 | |
It was very tricky so people need to
think very carefully indeed. This is | 0:13:40 | 0:13:44 | |
on the assumption the Russian state
was behind this, which has not yet | 0:13:44 | 0:13:47 | |
been approved or announced. If we do
establish that and work on the | 0:13:47 | 0:13:54 | |
presumption for now and I understand
your reservations, would President | 0:13:54 | 0:13:58 | |
Putin care if we were to try and
institute some kind of sanctions or | 0:13:58 | 0:14:04 | |
punishments or does it just increase
the siege mentality Russia is under | 0:14:04 | 0:14:07 | |
threat from the rest of the world
which in many ways bolstered his | 0:14:07 | 0:14:11 | |
position in advance of the elections
coming up soon? If we were to do it | 0:14:11 | 0:14:16 | |
unilaterally, just the UK, he
wouldn't careful stop with the EU, | 0:14:16 | 0:14:20 | |
and more other major allies
including the USA, he might take | 0:14:20 | 0:14:27 | |
notice but frankly, I think he
regarded as a medal if we were | 0:14:27 | 0:14:32 | |
simply to do it by ourselves and he
knows that, post the collapse of the | 0:14:32 | 0:14:37 | |
Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union in
the early 1990s, there is a huge | 0:14:37 | 0:14:41 | |
amount of Russian money in the UK,
particularly in London, and a | 0:14:41 | 0:14:46 | |
Magnitsky Act won't make that much
difference to the level of | 0:14:46 | 0:14:50 | |
dependence of some very highly
respectable British London based | 0:14:50 | 0:14:54 | |
financial institutions with Russian
money. | 0:14:54 | 0:15:01 | |
With the Alexander Litvinenko case,
an enquiry two tiers to get to the | 0:15:02 | 0:15:06 | |
bottom of what happened there, and
could only conclude that it was | 0:15:06 | 0:15:11 | |
probably orchestrated by the Russian
state. Can you take any sort of | 0:15:11 | 0:15:16 | |
action on the basis of something
probably being true? People need to | 0:15:16 | 0:15:21 | |
bear in mind the example of Iraq.
The evidence against Saddam Hussein | 0:15:21 | 0:15:28 | |
having and continuing to have
biological weapons was overwhelming. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
The question came up in United
Nations Security Council | 0:15:32 | 0:15:38 | |
resolutions, passed unanimously.
That is what Tony Blair and I used | 0:15:38 | 0:15:43 | |
almost 15 years ago to persuade
people to go to war against Iraq, | 0:15:43 | 0:15:46 | |
and it turned out to be completely
incorrect, so you've got to be | 0:15:46 | 0:15:51 | |
really careful. I have the scars
literally on my back in respect of | 0:15:51 | 0:15:55 | |
this. In the heat of the moment,
with people in the House of Commons | 0:15:55 | 0:15:59 | |
and the newspapers screeching,
something 's got to be done, being | 0:15:59 | 0:16:04 | |
non-explicit about what... Moreover,
we shouldn't descend to the level of | 0:16:04 | 0:16:12 | |
the criminal justice system in the
Russian Federation or other states | 0:16:12 | 0:16:16 | |
like that. There are demands today
from some Conservatives to ban the | 0:16:16 | 0:16:24 | |
Russia Today programme. The Shadow
Chancellor said today that he | 0:16:24 | 0:16:32 | |
doesn't think Labour MPs will be
appearing on there in the future. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:35 | |
Will you do the same? I have not
appeared on there for some time, but | 0:16:35 | 0:16:39 | |
I will make a decision on my own
terms. We have to be careful about | 0:16:39 | 0:16:44 | |
doing that in the absence of
evidence. Far better for Britain's | 0:16:44 | 0:16:50 | |
position in the world to have high
standards of probity. It's better to | 0:16:50 | 0:16:56 | |
bear in mind that well intentioned
people who do not lie at all, | 0:16:56 | 0:17:01 | |
including myself, and the House of
Commons by a huge majority, and | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
public opinion at the time, came to
the wrong decision with respect to | 0:17:05 | 0:17:09 | |
whether or not Saddam Hussein still
had biological weapons on the basis | 0:17:09 | 0:17:14 | |
of probabilities. That is the
difficulty here. People will of | 0:17:14 | 0:17:19 | |
course be very impatient indeed to
have a culprit here, and obviously | 0:17:19 | 0:17:24 | |
stacking it up on the basis of
circumstantial evidence, you can | 0:17:24 | 0:17:28 | |
make a very good case that it is the
Russian state, but we need a bit of | 0:17:28 | 0:17:33 | |
sobriety before we come to that
conclusion. Thank God that Amber | 0:17:33 | 0:17:38 | |
Rudd is the Home Secretary at the
moment. Someone else I could think | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
of in the British Cabinet, and she
is taking a very measured approach | 0:17:42 | 0:17:48 | |
to this. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:50 | |
Here with me now is Pauline Neville
Jones, who was Security | 0:17:50 | 0:17:54 | |
and Counter Terrorism Minister under
David Cameron, when Theresa May | 0:17:54 | 0:17:55 | |
was Home Secretary. | 0:17:55 | 0:17:58 | |
That was fascinating, listening to
Jack Straw drawing parallels with | 0:17:58 | 0:18:02 | |
Iraq and what was supposedly the
evidence of chemical and biological | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
weapons there, saying we have to be
very careful about pointing the | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
finger of blame. With your security
experience, will we ever be able to | 0:18:10 | 0:18:14 | |
establish whether this was
sanctioned by the Russians? I doubt | 0:18:14 | 0:18:18 | |
the Russian state will admit it was
involved. In order to get absolute | 0:18:18 | 0:18:23 | |
proof, what we needed with
Litvinenko was to have a trial. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:28 | |
There hasn't been a trial because
the Russians wouldn't cooperate. I | 0:18:28 | 0:18:33 | |
think it's right for the government
to be cautious about saying anything | 0:18:33 | 0:18:37 | |
now, because it mustn't be seen to
lead the investigation and therefore | 0:18:37 | 0:18:41 | |
damage it, but once we have
established a degree of probability | 0:18:41 | 0:18:46 | |
about the cause, that is the time
for action. I think the chances of | 0:18:46 | 0:18:51 | |
it not being connected with Russia
in some way are very low. The means | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
would point to that, but what is the
motive? This is a retired agent | 0:18:55 | 0:19:01 | |
who's been living here for years.
Came as part of the spy as well. The | 0:19:01 | 0:19:07 | |
unwritten rule of espionage is that
you don't touch spies. What dangers | 0:19:07 | 0:19:13 | |
does he pose to the Russian regime?
I think we simply don't know the | 0:19:13 | 0:19:21 | |
full story. There's plenty of
evidence that the Russian regime is | 0:19:21 | 0:19:25 | |
pretty vicious. Even if he was part
of a swap, I don't think you can | 0:19:25 | 0:19:30 | |
exclude the fact that the Russian
state might decide to take action | 0:19:30 | 0:19:34 | |
against him. Looking at pictures of
him and his daughter there. It's | 0:19:34 | 0:19:40 | |
difficult to see what threat they
posed to the Russian state. Is it | 0:19:40 | 0:19:45 | |
not worth considering the
possibility that they may have been | 0:19:45 | 0:19:47 | |
involved in something else that
isn't technically state faction -- | 0:19:47 | 0:19:57 | |
state sanctioned? If possible. It is
possible that the Mafia was | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
involved. The question is, what lay
behind the Mafia and where did the | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
nerve agent come from? Is it
possible to come from elsewhere than | 0:20:05 | 0:20:11 | |
a state laboratory? It's difficult
to imagine that the threat isn't | 0:20:11 | 0:20:18 | |
going to go back to Russia somehow.
Is it possible to take action | 0:20:18 | 0:20:24 | |
against wealthy Russian oligarchs
living in London, even if we change | 0:20:24 | 0:20:28 | |
the laws and bring in something like
the Magnitsky act? Mrs Litvinenko | 0:20:28 | 0:20:35 | |
got a letter from Theresa May, Home
Secretary at the time, saying that | 0:20:35 | 0:20:39 | |
we want to make sure nothing like
this happens again in the UK, and | 0:20:39 | 0:20:43 | |
now it has. There are already powers
which the government can use. One of | 0:20:43 | 0:20:48 | |
the reasons why there was an
argument in the Commons the other | 0:20:48 | 0:20:51 | |
day about this so-called Magnitsky
amendment was that the government | 0:20:51 | 0:20:57 | |
said, we've got the powers. You may
say, we need to use these powers, | 0:20:57 | 0:21:03 | |
for example to investigate people
who have unexplained wealth. There | 0:21:03 | 0:21:08 | |
are things we can do. These are
people who are not necessarily | 0:21:08 | 0:21:13 | |
linked to Putin and the regime, so
these are two distinct things. They | 0:21:13 | 0:21:19 | |
are. You have to be careful how you
do this, and it requires resources. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:24 | |
This is a complicated job. Jack
Straw put his finger on it when he | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
said, we need to act in concert with
allies. This is the thing that the | 0:21:28 | 0:21:32 | |
Russians really are going to take
notice of. At the moment, it's fair | 0:21:32 | 0:21:38 | |
to say that although we are Aljaz
overtime, we have gradually | 0:21:38 | 0:21:44 | |
increased the pressure. With
sanctions, and Nato have increased | 0:21:44 | 0:21:49 | |
measures on its borders, but we
still have a great deal of | 0:21:49 | 0:21:53 | |
harassment from the Russians. They
are taking action in people's | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
politics. They are conducting cyber
attacks. We need to act as an | 0:21:56 | 0:22:03 | |
alliance so that the Russians really
do believe, and they seek positive | 0:22:03 | 0:22:08 | |
evidence of it, that action against
one is an action against all, and | 0:22:08 | 0:22:13 | |
collective action follows. We need
to have a strategy that brings | 0:22:13 | 0:22:18 | |
together what we do militarily, what
we do to protect our citizens in the | 0:22:18 | 0:22:24 | |
cyber sphere, what we do in
broadcasting, so we have an all | 0:22:24 | 0:22:28 | |
encompassing way of dealing with
Russia. Thank you very much for | 0:22:28 | 0:22:35 | |
coming to talk to us. | 0:22:35 | 0:22:37 | |
The new Universities Minister,
Sam Gyimah, has set himself | 0:22:37 | 0:22:39 | |
a rather ambitious task. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:40 | |
Travelling up and down the country,
he's trying to attract students | 0:22:40 | 0:22:43 | |
to the Conservative Party. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:44 | |
With just one in five voters aged
between 18 and 24 voting Tory | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
in the 2017 election,
it's been jokingly called | 0:22:47 | 0:22:49 | |
his "punishment tour". | 0:22:49 | 0:22:50 | |
Our reporter Elizabeth Glinka
joined Sam on his visit | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
to Canterbury Christ Church
University. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:54 | |
And just to warn you,
her report contains flashing images. | 0:22:54 | 0:23:02 | |
Was that a youth quake? | 0:23:13 | 0:23:15 | |
Reports of a massive
increase in young voters at | 0:23:15 | 0:23:17 | |
the last general election may
have been exaggerated. | 0:23:17 | 0:23:20 | |
# I got the big size
12s on my feet... | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
Nationally, the turnout didn't
really change, but of | 0:23:23 | 0:23:26 | |
the young people that did vote,
a whopping 67% went for Labour. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:32 | |
And in a place like
Canterbury, where there | 0:23:32 | 0:23:34 | |
are more than 30,000 students,
it's thought that their votes played | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
a big part in the city
electing its first ever Labour MP. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:42 | |
Canterbury. | 0:23:42 | 0:23:43 | |
This has been Conservative
since World War I. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:46 | |
An extraordinary surge
in their share, up 20% here. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:53 | |
In general, everyone just
always seems to think | 0:23:53 | 0:23:54 | |
that the Conservatives are always
doing something wrong, | 0:23:54 | 0:23:56 | |
so even if you don't know
about the Conservatives, | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
all you hear, you just think
negative things about it. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:01 | |
Most of my friends always slander
the Conservative name, saying, | 0:24:01 | 0:24:03 | |
"It's only for middle-aged men who
want the benefit from themselves." | 0:24:03 | 0:24:07 | |
Do you think you have
to be quite brave to | 0:24:07 | 0:24:09 | |
say, "I am a Conservative?" | 0:24:09 | 0:24:10 | |
Yeah. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:11 | |
At first, I was like,
OK, I'm not going | 0:24:11 | 0:24:13 | |
to say anything to my friends,
because they will just kick off. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:16 | |
One of my flatmates was like,
"If you are not a Labour | 0:24:16 | 0:24:19 | |
voter, don't talk to me." | 0:24:19 | 0:24:20 | |
Labour had a lot of backing. | 0:24:20 | 0:24:22 | |
They had people like
AJ Tracey jumping on. | 0:24:22 | 0:24:24 | |
So once they see that,
everyone kind of runs | 0:24:24 | 0:24:26 | |
to it, like, let's vote Labour. | 0:24:26 | 0:24:27 | |
# Tracksuit grey, black,
blue | 0:24:27 | 0:24:29 | |
# I was just a hope-filled kid
like you... | 0:24:29 | 0:24:31 | |
AJ Tracey is just one of any number
of current music acts who publicly | 0:24:31 | 0:24:34 | |
endorsed the Labour Party
at the last general election, | 0:24:34 | 0:24:36 | |
helping to build a brand
which was apparently three times | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
more attractive to young voters. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:44 | |
To be fair, it's not
as if there was some sort of golden | 0:24:44 | 0:24:47 | |
era of Conservative hipsters,
but the figures suggest | 0:24:47 | 0:24:50 | |
things are getting worse. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:54 | |
And that's why the new Universities
Minister, Sam Gyimah, | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
is currently on a nationwide tour,
including here in Canterbury, | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
where he is attempting to
at least start a conversation | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
with a generation of voters who see
his party as old, male and stale. | 0:25:03 | 0:25:06 | |
Minister, this seems
a good time to jump in. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:10 | |
This is an incredibly difficult job,
isn't it, convincing young people | 0:25:10 | 0:25:15 | |
to vote Conservative? | 0:25:15 | 0:25:17 | |
We do have our work cut out for us,
but I think the first thing to do | 0:25:17 | 0:25:21 | |
is actually to be on campus. | 0:25:21 | 0:25:23 | |
If we allow Jeremy Corbyn to be
the only one on campus, then we only | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
have ourselves to blame. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:29 | |
Many students will say to you, well,
it's fine, you're having | 0:25:29 | 0:25:32 | |
a review on student fees
and many other things. | 0:25:32 | 0:25:34 | |
The Labour Party's promising us
they're going to get rid of fees. | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
We know what happens when you
promised something for free. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:39 | |
Numbers are going to be capped,
which means fewer people | 0:25:39 | 0:25:42 | |
going to university. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:44 | |
It's the well off that
are going to do it. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:46 | |
That's not what we're about. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:48 | |
I'm not really worried
about Jeremy Corbyn's free | 0:25:48 | 0:25:50 | |
for all offer, because it's not
realistic, and he can't deliver it, | 0:25:50 | 0:25:52 | |
and we only need to look
at countries like Scotland to see | 0:25:52 | 0:25:55 | |
that it's not going to work. | 0:25:55 | 0:25:57 | |
And what reaction are you expecting
when you head in there? | 0:25:57 | 0:25:59 | |
Well, I thought it might
be rowdy like PMQs. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:02 | |
I've no idea. | 0:26:02 | 0:26:03 | |
I haven't had the mob treatment
anywhere yet so far. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:05 | |
# Your face ain't big for my boot | 0:26:05 | 0:26:07 | |
# Kick up the yout | 0:26:07 | 0:26:08 | |
# I know that I kick up the yout... | 0:26:08 | 0:26:11 | |
There might not have been
a youth quake nationally, | 0:26:11 | 0:26:14 | |
but there was a bit of a youth quake
in Canterbury, and I want to listen | 0:26:14 | 0:26:17 | |
and I want to understand. | 0:26:17 | 0:26:19 | |
You know, we've had enough
of austerity politics. | 0:26:19 | 0:26:21 | |
We've had enough of student fees,
things like that, and we've seen | 0:26:21 | 0:26:24 | |
the NHS get less and less
funded over time. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:28 | |
And it's hard to
ignore those things. | 0:26:28 | 0:26:29 | |
You know, we are going to take
action against you. | 0:26:29 | 0:26:32 | |
# Bros in my ear saying
"Stormz, don't do it" | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
# Devil on my shoulder
I don't lack | 0:26:34 | 0:26:36 | |
# Hit 'em
with a crowbar, I don't scrap... | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
Well, lots of discussion,
some of it a bit feisty, | 0:26:39 | 0:26:41 | |
but did the Minister win any
hearts and minds? | 0:26:41 | 0:26:43 | |
He's really good at talking
to students, and he's | 0:26:43 | 0:26:45 | |
here to talk to everyone. | 0:26:45 | 0:26:47 | |
Would it make you feel differently
about voting Conservative? | 0:26:47 | 0:26:49 | |
I took from your comments that
you were not a Conservative voter. | 0:26:49 | 0:26:53 | |
Definitely not, but I did think
he made some good points, | 0:26:53 | 0:26:55 | |
and he was very measured. | 0:26:55 | 0:26:57 | |
It's quite clear that there
are a number of people here who have | 0:26:57 | 0:27:00 | |
been seduced by Jeremy Corbyn,
but I think the purpose of this | 0:27:00 | 0:27:03 | |
is to let them realise
that there is a Conservative voice, | 0:27:03 | 0:27:05 | |
there is a Conservative point
of view, and that as a minister | 0:27:05 | 0:27:08 | |
I am here to listen. | 0:27:08 | 0:27:11 | |
Clearly a smart man. | 0:27:11 | 0:27:12 | |
I'm not sure it's better
or worse to have a smart | 0:27:12 | 0:27:16 | |
Tory or a stupid Tory,
but he knew what he was | 0:27:16 | 0:27:18 | |
talking about, even though
I disagree with him. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:20 | |
Would it make you think twice
about voting Conservative? | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
No, I will never vote
Conservative in my life. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:27 | |
So as the sun sets in Canterbury,
there's still a long way to go. | 0:27:27 | 0:27:33 | |
And Universities Minister Sam
Gymiah joins me now. | 0:27:33 | 0:27:40 | |
A smart Tory. That is a compliment
from one of the students! Do you | 0:27:41 | 0:27:46 | |
think you persuaded many of them to
vote Tory? The point of the exercise | 0:27:46 | 0:27:51 | |
was not to persuade people to vote
Conservative. As Universities | 0:27:51 | 0:27:56 | |
Minister, I'm very conscious that
students are investing a | 0:27:56 | 0:28:00 | |
considerable amount of money in
their education, so they should have | 0:28:00 | 0:28:05 | |
a voice in the corridors of power.
Gone are the days that the | 0:28:05 | 0:28:09 | |
Universities Minister 's spends time
with the chancellors and not the | 0:28:09 | 0:28:14 | |
students. Jeremy Corbyn has a voice
on the campus, and if we allow that | 0:28:14 | 0:28:19 | |
to continue, we only have ourselves
to blame. The starting point in the | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
process is listening and engaging,
rather than going in there to preach | 0:28:23 | 0:28:26 | |
to them about what their problems
and answers are. You have a mountain | 0:28:26 | 0:28:32 | |
to climb with young people. Let's
have a look at the numbers. At the | 0:28:32 | 0:28:37 | |
last election, between 18 to
24-year-olds, 67% voted Labour. | 0:28:37 | 0:28:43 | |
Unless you can change those minds,
you have a generational problem with | 0:28:43 | 0:28:50 | |
voters, and you will not see
Conservative governments in the | 0:28:50 | 0:28:52 | |
future, unless people change their
minds. What I am doing at the moment | 0:28:52 | 0:28:57 | |
is pressing, which is why the party
is beginning to engage with students | 0:28:57 | 0:29:01 | |
at this level. A number of things
have come up as I've travelled | 0:29:01 | 0:29:04 | |
around the country that we can
address. Austerity keeps coming up. | 0:29:04 | 0:29:09 | |
We stopped making the case for why
we had to reduce the deficit from | 0:29:09 | 0:29:15 | |
the extreme levels that we inherited
from the Labour Party. One man said | 0:29:15 | 0:29:19 | |
to me, all I have ever heard the
Conservatives talk | 0:29:19 | 0:29:32 | |
about is austerity. It must be your
ideology. That is clearly not the | 0:29:32 | 0:29:35 | |
case. It is a matter of necessity,
not ideology. We have the spring | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
statement coming up next week. The
Chancellor has said this morning | 0:29:38 | 0:29:40 | |
that we are in a much better
financial position at the moment | 0:29:40 | 0:29:44 | |
then we have been, but it doesn't
sound like he's going to end | 0:29:44 | 0:29:48 | |
austerity. Would you encourage him
to do so? This brings statement is | 0:29:48 | 0:29:52 | |
an update on the public finances.
But he is going to point further | 0:29:52 | 0:29:57 | |
ahead to the budget in the autumn,
and he doesn't seem to be talking | 0:29:57 | 0:30:02 | |
about the increased public spending
you think will attract people to the | 0:30:02 | 0:30:06 | |
Tories. We are not going to say we
are going to return to discredited | 0:30:06 | 0:30:10 | |
economic policies of 40 years ago.
What he should be saying to young | 0:30:10 | 0:30:15 | |
people is that the balanced approach
that he is pursuing, in a world | 0:30:15 | 0:30:20 | |
where we have technological
challenge and a global market | 0:30:20 | 0:30:24 | |
economy, the Conservatives are
uniquely placed to deliver | 0:30:24 | 0:30:28 | |
prosperity for them. Another issue
that comes up is our motives. When | 0:30:28 | 0:30:33 | |
we talk about economic prosperity,
people feel it is for the few. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:37 | |
Sometimes I have to explain that the
top rate of tax has been higher | 0:30:37 | 0:30:45 | |
under the Conservatives, and that
the top 1% pay 20% of income tax. | 0:30:45 | 0:30:48 | |
They didn't know that. We need to
talk about -- we need to persuade | 0:30:48 | 0:30:54 | |
them that when we talk about
economic prosperity, it is their | 0:30:54 | 0:30:57 | |
future we are talking about. | 0:30:57 | 0:31:02 | |
You addressed tuition fees in the
film but look at maintenance grants | 0:31:02 | 0:31:06 | |
being cut by this government so the
poorer students to go to university | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
will lead with larger debt than
those from better off backgrounds. | 0:31:09 | 0:31:13 | |
When that is their experience right
now on campus, no wonder they keep | 0:31:13 | 0:31:18 | |
thinking you are looking after the
better off and not the | 0:31:18 | 0:31:23 | |
disadvantaged. Canterbury has the
best proportion of students went | 0:31:23 | 0:31:26 | |
university for the first time in
their families. Many of those would | 0:31:26 | 0:31:29 | |
not be at university at all had we
pursue the Jeremy Corbyn policy. | 0:31:29 | 0:31:38 | |
Jeremy Corbyn is promising to
abolish tuition fees so that would | 0:31:39 | 0:31:43 | |
make it easier for students to go to
university. Once you make university | 0:31:43 | 0:31:46 | |
free you can't have a current policy
we have which is that the numbers | 0:31:46 | 0:31:50 | |
who can go to university are capped.
At a time when the numbers were not | 0:31:50 | 0:31:56 | |
capped, our own history, very few
people went to university and mentor | 0:31:56 | 0:32:00 | |
very few poor people went
university. A consequence of the | 0:32:00 | 0:32:05 | |
Conservative policy is a lot of
disadvantaged people are giving to | 0:32:05 | 0:32:07 | |
university for the first time and we
have a student finance scheme where | 0:32:07 | 0:32:11 | |
you do not pay a penny as a first
burner unless you in over £25,000 | 0:32:11 | 0:32:17 | |
and after 30 years, whatever you
have managed to pay, is written. I'm | 0:32:17 | 0:32:22 | |
not saying is perfect. That very
system is replacing grants for | 0:32:22 | 0:32:26 | |
poorer students with loans. Why? If
you are so keen to get disadvantaged | 0:32:26 | 0:32:33 | |
students into universities, wide
takeaway maintenance grants? There | 0:32:33 | 0:32:37 | |
is a review looking at the whole
system, but when many students | 0:32:37 | 0:32:40 | |
complain about the student finances,
they focus on accommodation. | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
Somewhere like London, landlords
want to get the years rent in | 0:32:44 | 0:32:49 | |
advance. That is a difficult
situation for them and the cost of | 0:32:49 | 0:32:54 | |
living issues, rather than assuming
we know... There's an interest rate | 0:32:54 | 0:33:00 | |
on a student loan of over 6% which
is way in excess of what people are | 0:33:00 | 0:33:05 | |
borrowing on mortgages etc. The cost
of living in University... They must | 0:33:05 | 0:33:12 | |
be worried about it. Whatever your
level of earnings, you pay 9% of | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
your income, which means higher rate
in graduates pay more to the system | 0:33:16 | 0:33:20 | |
but I also think to narrow the
debate on student fees, students | 0:33:20 | 0:33:27 | |
have a lot of interest, not all
students think student fees is their | 0:33:27 | 0:33:31 | |
big issue. Someone to see their
politicians care about making the | 0:33:31 | 0:33:36 | |
world a better place. What kind of
world they are going into, they will | 0:33:36 | 0:33:41 | |
get on the housing ladder, housing
is big issue for them but the | 0:33:41 | 0:33:45 | |
economy prospers, so I think that's
why you have got to listen and not | 0:33:45 | 0:33:48 | |
assume all students have the same
view and there is one answer that | 0:33:48 | 0:33:52 | |
deals with all the problems of every
18-21 -year-old. Mental health keeps | 0:33:52 | 0:33:56 | |
cropping up. I'm sure the university
's lecturers strike came up as well. | 0:33:56 | 0:34:03 | |
Now students are paying £9,000 in
fees, they are consumers as well as | 0:34:03 | 0:34:07 | |
students, so should they get a
refund for the lessons they have not | 0:34:07 | 0:34:10 | |
been taught? Universities do not pay
lecturers on the day they strike, | 0:34:10 | 0:34:17 | |
they should not pocket those funds,
but look at compensation for | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
students and there are real ways of
compensating students. Would you | 0:34:21 | 0:34:25 | |
compel them to do that? I'm not in a
position to compel them to do that. | 0:34:25 | 0:34:31 | |
There is the regulator for
university who has a wide-ranging | 0:34:31 | 0:34:34 | |
remit. I'm encouraged some
universities are taking this | 0:34:34 | 0:34:39 | |
seriously. Kings College London will
offer financial compensation. I | 0:34:39 | 0:34:45 | |
think they should look at this very
seriously. I am disappointed I am | 0:34:45 | 0:34:49 | |
seeing lots of petitions out there
from Durham University, a petition | 0:34:49 | 0:34:53 | |
of 5000 students, asking for
compensation. I want to university | 0:34:53 | 0:35:00 | |
to respond constructively, because
we are in the age of the student and | 0:35:00 | 0:35:02 | |
we are there to serve. One quick
question, talking about Russia on | 0:35:02 | 0:35:07 | |
the programme so far this morning, a
story this morning in the papers | 0:35:07 | 0:35:11 | |
saying over £800 million has been
donated to the Tory party from | 0:35:11 | 0:35:15 | |
Russian link to donors since Theresa
May took over, even notice that you | 0:35:15 | 0:35:20 | |
wanted an arms length relationship.
Is that something that should be | 0:35:20 | 0:35:23 | |
discouraged in the future and should
the money be returned now? To make a | 0:35:23 | 0:35:28 | |
donation to a political party in
this country you have to be a | 0:35:28 | 0:35:31 | |
citizen Dungannon | 0:35:31 | 0:35:39 | |
citizen Dungannon -- and betting
needs to be taken place. Modern | 0:35:39 | 0:35:44 | |
Britain is made up by people from
all sorts of places. Some groups of | 0:35:44 | 0:35:50 | |
people cannot participate in Aber
Democratic life to the fall, and we | 0:35:50 | 0:35:52 | |
have got to be clear, these are
British citizens from Russia. Not | 0:35:52 | 0:35:57 | |
the Kremlin donating to the
Conservative Party. Of course not, | 0:35:57 | 0:36:02 | |
but there could be a question of
where those funds came from in the | 0:36:02 | 0:36:07 | |
first place for the wedding end up
on the front page of a Sunday | 0:36:07 | 0:36:10 | |
newspaper saying this much money has
been donated to the Conservative | 0:36:10 | 0:36:14 | |
Party, maybe it would be better to
think again where you receive your | 0:36:14 | 0:36:17 | |
large donations from? It's not just
the letter of the law but vetting | 0:36:17 | 0:36:21 | |
should be thorough. Sam Gyimah,
thank you very much for coming in to | 0:36:21 | 0:36:28 | |
talk to us. | 0:36:28 | 0:36:29 | |
It's coming up to 11.40. | 0:36:29 | 0:36:30 | |
You're watching
the Sunday Politics. | 0:36:30 | 0:36:31 | |
Still to come, we'll be
discussing the economy. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
Is it time to end austerity? | 0:36:33 | 0:36:35 | |
First though, its time for
the Sunday Politics where you are. | 0:36:35 | 0:36:38 | |
Hello and welcome to
the London part of the show. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
I'm Alex Forsyth. | 0:36:48 | 0:36:49 | |
Coming up later in the programme: | 0:36:49 | 0:36:51 | |
Liberal Democrat leader Vince Cable
tells us why he is confident | 0:36:51 | 0:36:54 | |
the party can make gains
in May's local elections. | 0:36:54 | 0:36:59 | |
I'm joined for the duration
by Siobhan McDonagh, | 0:36:59 | 0:37:02 | |
Labour MP for Mitcham
and Morden, and Bob Blackman, | 0:37:02 | 0:37:04 | |
Conservative MP for Harrow East,
and Baroness Kramer, | 0:37:04 | 0:37:08 | |
Liberal Democrat Treasury
Spokesperson and former MP | 0:37:08 | 0:37:11 | |
for Richmond Park. | 0:37:11 | 0:37:13 | |
I want to start with housing. | 0:37:13 | 0:37:15 | |
The Prime Minister has often spoken
about the housing market - | 0:37:15 | 0:37:18 | |
last year she admitted
it was "broken". | 0:37:18 | 0:37:21 | |
This week, she donned
a hi-vis jacket and visited | 0:37:21 | 0:37:22 | |
a construction site in London. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:25 | |
She was there to deliver
a keynote speech about how | 0:37:25 | 0:37:28 | |
to get housing built,
and she challenged developers | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
to get their priorities right. | 0:37:31 | 0:37:34 | |
The bonuses paid to the heads
of some of our biggest developers | 0:37:34 | 0:37:37 | |
are based not on the number of homes
they build, but on their | 0:37:37 | 0:37:40 | |
profits or share price. | 0:37:40 | 0:37:41 | |
I expect developers to do their duty
for Britain and build | 0:37:41 | 0:37:44 | |
the homes our country needs. | 0:37:44 | 0:37:47 | |
But in London, where the housing
crisis is most acute, | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
council leaders rejected the idea
that local authorities | 0:37:51 | 0:37:53 | |
and developers were to blame. | 0:37:53 | 0:37:55 | |
The Labour Mayor of Lewisham,
Sir Steve Bullock, | 0:37:55 | 0:37:57 | |
who is also the housing spokesperson
for London Councils, | 0:37:57 | 0:38:01 | |
said the Prime Minister had shied
away from the one policy that | 0:38:01 | 0:38:04 | |
could increase house-building. | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
I find it really hard to understand
why the Prime Minister thinks | 0:38:07 | 0:38:11 | |
that a local council can force
a private developer to build out | 0:38:11 | 0:38:18 | |
a planning permission
which they have been given. | 0:38:18 | 0:38:21 | |
The single thing that would make
a difference, not just in London | 0:38:21 | 0:38:26 | |
but across the nation,
would be to raise the cap | 0:38:26 | 0:38:31 | |
on what we can spend on new housing. | 0:38:31 | 0:38:33 | |
The housing revenue account. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
Let us borrow against
the assets that we've got. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | |
This has stopped being
a matter of controversy | 0:38:38 | 0:38:40 | |
within local government. | 0:38:40 | 0:38:43 | |
People from all political
persuasions are now agreed that just | 0:38:43 | 0:38:47 | |
give us the ability to build
and we will get on and do it. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:52 | |
Sir Steve Bullock's views.
Let me come to you first, | 0:38:52 | 0:38:56 | |
Bob, if I can, on this.
So why doesn't the governor do that, | 0:38:56 | 0:38:58 | |
just give councils the power
to borrow and build? | 0:38:58 | 0:39:00 | |
Well, the reality is the government
has allocated to the Mayor of London | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
and London councils a record
sum of money. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:07 | |
£3.15 billion for the development
of housing and yet, in London, | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
it's the one area in the country
where the house-building | 0:39:10 | 0:39:13 | |
is going down instead of up.
So we've got a Mayor of London | 0:39:13 | 0:39:17 | |
who made all sorts of promises.
He's failing to deliver on those | 0:39:17 | 0:39:20 | |
promises and actuallly now we need
some action to go with the money | 0:39:20 | 0:39:23 | |
that the government has provided.
But you hear the council | 0:39:23 | 0:39:27 | |
saying actually they need
more powers to do this? | 0:39:27 | 0:39:30 | |
Well, it's interesting
that the Mayor of Lewisham is on. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:33 | |
He said he's cancelling
the compulsary purchase order around | 0:39:33 | 0:39:37 | |
Millwall football club
where the original idea | 0:39:37 | 0:39:41 | |
was to develop housing
yet his deputy Mayor says no, | 0:39:41 | 0:39:44 | |
the compulsary purchase
order is going forward. | 0:39:44 | 0:39:51 | |
That a specific case but obviously
there is a capital wide problem. One | 0:39:51 | 0:39:55 | |
of the problems is we have the same
thing in Enfield, a scheme for | 0:39:55 | 0:39:59 | |
10,000 homes has been cancelled
effectively because of the | 0:39:59 | 0:40:01 | |
interference of the Mayor. Haringey,
Private partnerships seem to be | 0:40:01 | 0:40:07 | |
going awry because of divisions in
the Labour Party. You have got girls | 0:40:07 | 0:40:12 | |
caught, under challenge, old Oak
Common, huge numbers of homes can be | 0:40:12 | 0:40:17 | |
built -- Earls Court. Also Transport
for London to develop homes is | 0:40:17 | 0:40:24 | |
problematic. I can see you shaking
your head. What Bob knows is most of | 0:40:24 | 0:40:31 | |
these schemes are about building
private houses at high costs in | 0:40:31 | 0:40:35 | |
London where the average house is 15
times the average salary. We are | 0:40:35 | 0:40:40 | |
never ever going to get to the
300,000 properties the government | 0:40:40 | 0:40:46 | |
wants unless councils and housing
associations are allowed to build. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:49 | |
The last time we built that number
was 1969. Councils and housing | 0:40:49 | 0:40:56 | |
associations were building. We have
got the land, the policy, the paper, | 0:40:56 | 0:41:01 | |
the high viz jackets, the one thing
we don't have is getting our act | 0:41:01 | 0:41:04 | |
together and getting out there in
building. What Theresa May has said | 0:41:04 | 0:41:09 | |
here if there is a duty on
developers. She is putting the onus | 0:41:09 | 0:41:12 | |
on the private companies to get
their act together on this and get | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
building. Is that not thumping
Labour would welcome? It's part of | 0:41:15 | 0:41:20 | |
it but not the total. Is the most
expensive way in the world to build | 0:41:20 | 0:41:24 | |
your social housing for families who
can't afford to buy by planning | 0:41:24 | 0:41:29 | |
agreements. The cheapest and best
way to do it is to go out there and | 0:41:29 | 0:41:33 | |
use the land there, 40% of all empty
sites are owned by the public | 0:41:33 | 0:41:38 | |
sector, I think government should
force the public sector to use them | 0:41:38 | 0:41:41 | |
in the first place for housing. I
can hear you, Susan, next to me. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:49 | |
Developers make their money by
keeping supply short and Theresa | 0:41:49 | 0:41:54 | |
May, the word naive is perhaps a
gentle comment on telling developers | 0:41:54 | 0:41:58 | |
to ignore their property interests
and go ahead and build. The power | 0:41:58 | 0:42:03 | |
needs to be put into the hands of
local councils. I think we could use | 0:42:03 | 0:42:08 | |
the GLA fund, frankly, to try
building in London but local council | 0:42:08 | 0:42:11 | |
levels, people need to have that
opportunity, but the onus and | 0:42:11 | 0:42:15 | |
pressure has to be to deliver
affordable and social housing. Where | 0:42:15 | 0:42:20 | |
I live, in Barnes, Richmond, I am
watching three new blocks going up | 0:42:20 | 0:42:25 | |
and every single one of them is
wall-to-wall luxury housing. When | 0:42:25 | 0:42:28 | |
you see the lights on at night,
everybody knows this story, less | 0:42:28 | 0:42:32 | |
than a third of the lights are on.
They are just investment properties. | 0:42:32 | 0:42:37 | |
The Prime Minister has made housing
a real priority for her and pledged | 0:42:37 | 0:42:42 | |
to build this new generation of
Council social housing to do | 0:42:42 | 0:42:46 | |
something about this and make home
ownership a dream for future | 0:42:46 | 0:42:50 | |
generations. You hear the criticism.
Siobhan is right about one thing, | 0:42:50 | 0:42:56 | |
the land is 40% owned by the public
sector already. The big problem is | 0:42:56 | 0:43:03 | |
the cost of land particularly in
London where it contributes to the | 0:43:03 | 0:43:05 | |
high cost. Through the relevant
agencies now, we can force that | 0:43:05 | 0:43:13 | |
public land to be used for housing
falls at the planning permission is | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
not an issue. That has been granted
by local authorities. It's getting | 0:43:17 | 0:43:21 | |
the housing built. We have too few
housing developers in this country. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:25 | |
Ten years ago, we had 2500 companies
who build houses and now down to | 0:43:25 | 0:43:33 | |
about ten who realistically
contribute. We have to broaden the | 0:43:33 | 0:43:37 | |
scope. It is all about making the
contracts and getting them in place. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:42 | |
In my view, in the public sector, I
think we should ignore the cost of | 0:43:42 | 0:43:46 | |
the land, take that out of the
equation, build the homes and then | 0:43:46 | 0:43:50 | |
charge rent on the cost of building
the homes and ignore the cost of the | 0:43:50 | 0:43:54 | |
land. Often, in the housing debate,
we hear attacks on record of various | 0:43:54 | 0:44:00 | |
governments. Isn't the truth we have
a broken market and if the people | 0:44:00 | 0:44:03 | |
who live in London who can't afford
their homes who are suffering? That | 0:44:03 | 0:44:07 | |
doesn't get a roof over any homeless
family had, we have to get out and | 0:44:07 | 0:44:11 | |
do it. Bob is right about the public
sector sites but in order to get | 0:44:11 | 0:44:16 | |
cancelled and the health service and
the prison service to do that, you | 0:44:16 | 0:44:19 | |
have to make it there priority --
councils. You have to say there will | 0:44:19 | 0:44:26 | |
be financial consequences because
without that it's never going to | 0:44:26 | 0:44:28 | |
happen and you can have as many
glossy report as you like but there | 0:44:28 | 0:44:32 | |
is a role here for government to
force public bodies to use their | 0:44:32 | 0:44:36 | |
land in the first place for housing.
And we have done it before. The | 0:44:36 | 0:44:43 | |
housing associations are sitting on
huge amounts of money in assets and | 0:44:43 | 0:44:47 | |
money they could use but they don't
because they're quite comfortable. | 0:44:47 | 0:44:50 | |
We have to leave up there, sadly and
we can't solve the housing crisis | 0:44:50 | 0:44:54 | |
but we have made inroads, I'm sure. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:58 | |
It's been a big week
for the Liberal Democrats - | 0:44:58 | 0:45:01 | |
they marked the 30th anniversary
of the formation of the party, and | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
members are attending their annual
spring conference this weekend. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:06 | |
At the forefront of their concerns
will be the upcoming | 0:45:06 | 0:45:08 | |
local elections in May -
which their leader has said will be | 0:45:08 | 0:45:11 | |
crucial to rebuilding
Lib Dem influence at every | 0:45:11 | 0:45:13 | |
level of government. | 0:45:13 | 0:45:14 | |
So how will they fare in London? | 0:45:14 | 0:45:16 | |
Bhavani Vadde reports. | 0:45:16 | 0:45:17 | |
The Lib Dems are the only party
that is consistently argued | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
for staying in the EU. | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
They've put this at the heart
of the local election campaign. | 0:45:21 | 0:45:27 | |
This week, they've released messages
in 21 different European languages, | 0:45:27 | 0:45:29 | |
targeting EU nationals. | 0:45:29 | 0:45:32 | |
This is the first test of opinion
since the general election, | 0:45:32 | 0:45:37 | |
and Brexit and the impact of Brexit,
the negative hit on London, | 0:45:37 | 0:45:40 | |
will be a big theme. | 0:45:40 | 0:45:44 | |
We've had a massive increase
in our membership, | 0:45:44 | 0:45:45 | |
much of it in the capital,
mostly young people. | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
We've now got a significantly
bigger party nationally | 0:45:48 | 0:45:51 | |
than the Conservatives,
for example, and lots of energy, | 0:45:51 | 0:45:55 | |
much of it again centred
around the Brexit issue. | 0:45:55 | 0:46:02 | |
A key target for the party
is the Royal Borough of Kingston. | 0:46:02 | 0:46:06 | |
The Conservatives ended 12 years
of Lib Dem control there at the last | 0:46:06 | 0:46:09 | |
local elections in 2014. | 0:46:09 | 0:46:12 | |
This time, it's expected to be
close, with an unusually high number | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
of marginal wards in the borough. | 0:46:15 | 0:46:19 | |
It was a completely different
ball game back in 2014. | 0:46:19 | 0:46:23 | |
Essentially, a lot of people
were punishing us nationally | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
in local elections, but this time
round, I think people | 0:46:26 | 0:46:30 | |
are really looking at
what the local issues are. | 0:46:30 | 0:46:33 | |
More homes, not the luxury tower
blocks, better air quality... | 0:46:33 | 0:46:38 | |
The borough also voted
to remain in the EU. | 0:46:38 | 0:46:41 | |
I mean, I'm a politician,
and I'm bored with Brexit, | 0:46:41 | 0:46:44 | |
and I think actually when you talk
to people on doorsteps, | 0:46:44 | 0:46:47 | |
it's very much the same view. | 0:46:47 | 0:46:48 | |
Most people are satisfied
with the job that we are doing here. | 0:46:48 | 0:46:51 | |
We've invested heavily
in the infrastructure, | 0:46:51 | 0:46:53 | |
so we've spent more money
than we were going to on roads | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
and pavements and playgrounds. | 0:46:56 | 0:46:59 | |
Kingston is also home
to the coronation stone, | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
where seven Saxon kings were said
to have been crowned, | 0:47:02 | 0:47:05 | |
the last being Ethelred the Unready. | 0:47:05 | 0:47:08 | |
In old English, unready actually
means "badly advised", | 0:47:08 | 0:47:11 | |
so are the Lib Dems also ill-advised
to be sticking to their anti-Brexit | 0:47:11 | 0:47:15 | |
message when it has failed to bring
them electoral glory? | 0:47:15 | 0:47:20 | |
It's now becoming much more
clear what's at stake. | 0:47:20 | 0:47:23 | |
We've had the referendum. | 0:47:23 | 0:47:24 | |
I think a lot of people took
the view "let the government get | 0:47:24 | 0:47:27 | |
on with it, see what happens",
but we can now see | 0:47:27 | 0:47:30 | |
that we are going to leave
if the government gets its way, | 0:47:30 | 0:47:32 | |
leave the single market. | 0:47:32 | 0:47:34 | |
Massive implications for London and
all its service-based industries. | 0:47:34 | 0:47:39 | |
The party celebrated its 30th
birthday this week. | 0:47:39 | 0:47:42 | |
It's been a journey which saw
them rise to government, | 0:47:42 | 0:47:44 | |
and then punished
in the polls for their part | 0:47:44 | 0:47:48 | |
in that coalition. | 0:47:48 | 0:47:49 | |
Their record in south-west London
reflects the roller-coaster | 0:47:49 | 0:47:52 | |
of their electoral fortunes. | 0:47:52 | 0:47:54 | |
Their three London MPs hold
seats in these boroughs. | 0:47:54 | 0:47:58 | |
The party runs Sutton Council,
and are the main opposition group | 0:47:58 | 0:48:01 | |
in Kingston and Richmond -
both councils they once controlled, | 0:48:01 | 0:48:05 | |
and have high hopes of winning back. | 0:48:05 | 0:48:08 | |
The Lib Dems need local election
success to build towards whenever | 0:48:08 | 0:48:12 | |
the next general election is come,
so if they don't do really quite | 0:48:12 | 0:48:16 | |
well in London, and indeed
outside London this time, | 0:48:16 | 0:48:22 | |
then it will be seen as evidence
that they are simply treading water, | 0:48:22 | 0:48:26 | |
not making progress. | 0:48:26 | 0:48:29 | |
A Labour Party which has this bigger
capacity to, as it were, | 0:48:29 | 0:48:31 | |
send a massive message
to the government and Mrs May may be | 0:48:31 | 0:48:34 | |
an easier shift of votes
for die-hard remainers | 0:48:34 | 0:48:37 | |
than the Lib Dems. | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
So in this overwhelmingly remains
city, the Lib Dems have so far | 0:48:40 | 0:48:44 | |
failed to capitalise
on their continued | 0:48:44 | 0:48:47 | |
anti-Brexit stance. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:49 | |
Will they be able to do
so at the polls in May? | 0:48:49 | 0:48:57 | |
Susan Kramer, the Lib Dems failed to
capitalise on the anti-Brexit vote | 0:49:01 | 0:49:07 | |
at the general election, so why do
you think it might be difficult at | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
these -- different at these local
elections? The highlight, Vince | 0:49:10 | 0:49:17 | |
Cable one Twickenham, and Ed Davey
one Kingston, which we had lost | 0:49:17 | 0:49:22 | |
before. So we did see a return. But
not nationally. I'm talking about | 0:49:22 | 0:49:28 | |
the specific areas you are focused
on. When we are out on the doorstep, | 0:49:28 | 0:49:34 | |
we find... In many of these cases,
we were a local force for many | 0:49:34 | 0:49:39 | |
years, so people know us there. When
we are in Kingston, we just talked | 0:49:39 | 0:49:46 | |
to people and we identify that three
new schools are needed, including a | 0:49:46 | 0:49:51 | |
special school, and we cannot let
the Conservatives take money out of | 0:49:51 | 0:49:54 | |
the special needs budget, and we get
a very strong response. We talk | 0:49:54 | 0:50:00 | |
about the housing need, and we need
affordable housing. Various projects | 0:50:00 | 0:50:05 | |
have been built on the Richmond
side, which have a very high luxury | 0:50:05 | 0:50:12 | |
content. No affordable and certainly
no social housing. There are really | 0:50:12 | 0:50:18 | |
big local issues. You say you are
fighting at a local level, but the | 0:50:18 | 0:50:22 | |
message at the top of the party is
very much, we are an anti-Brexit | 0:50:22 | 0:50:27 | |
party. Are you kicking at an open
door in London? We are | 0:50:27 | 0:50:37 | |
door in London? We are an
anti-Brexit party. We do not deny | 0:50:37 | 0:50:39 | |
that for one second. We think that
is the best outcome. Many people | 0:50:39 | 0:50:43 | |
want to engage... As you know, when
we had the referendum, there was so | 0:50:43 | 0:50:46 | |
much that none of us knew, and now
this extraordinary complexity. The | 0:50:46 | 0:50:51 | |
level of damage is beginning to
become apparent. People are feeling | 0:50:51 | 0:50:56 | |
it in their pocket. Isn't the danger
for the Lib Dems that if you do | 0:50:56 | 0:51:01 | |
campaign at an anti-Brexit message,
at a local level, councillors will | 0:51:01 | 0:51:05 | |
not be able to affect change,
because it is those in Parliament... | 0:51:05 | 0:51:12 | |
People are sending a message. They
vote locally for their councillors, | 0:51:12 | 0:51:17 | |
but they are getting the opportunity
to send a message to their | 0:51:17 | 0:51:20 | |
government. Labour's message is
quite confused on Brexit. What are | 0:51:20 | 0:51:27 | |
they saying? If people are going to
vote Labour in London, as they did | 0:51:27 | 0:51:32 | |
in enormous numbers last June in the
general election, they are making a | 0:51:32 | 0:51:37 | |
point about being anti-Brexit. They
are also making a point about | 0:51:37 | 0:51:41 | |
housing, because this is not just
about people on low incomes. If you | 0:51:41 | 0:51:46 | |
knock on the door, if it is a
private Tennant, they are almost all | 0:51:46 | 0:51:53 | |
virtually Labour. Thomas, are you
going to take the flak for this in | 0:51:53 | 0:51:58 | |
the local elections? Not at all. The
reality is that Conservative | 0:51:58 | 0:52:06 | |
councils in London have always done
a really good job of delivering high | 0:52:06 | 0:52:11 | |
quality services at a lower cost.
Zac Goldsmith took back Richmond | 0:52:11 | 0:52:17 | |
from the Lib Dems at the general
election. We won it at the | 0:52:17 | 0:52:22 | |
by-election. Won by 45. The polls
say you are going to take a right | 0:52:22 | 0:52:30 | |
hammering. It will be interesting.
We are talking about the Liberal | 0:52:30 | 0:52:34 | |
Democrat performance. I think we
will take seats off the Lib Dems in | 0:52:34 | 0:52:41 | |
Sutton. I'm looking forward to
taking seeds of Labour in Harrow. I | 0:52:41 | 0:52:47 | |
think you are being optimistic. They
are one of the worst performing | 0:52:47 | 0:52:50 | |
councils in London and in the
country, with the third highest | 0:52:50 | 0:52:54 | |
level of council tax. The key point
about London election is not to be | 0:52:54 | 0:53:00 | |
thinking about parties, but looking
at individual councils, how they | 0:53:00 | 0:53:05 | |
have performed as a council, and
look at the opposition. If you look | 0:53:05 | 0:53:10 | |
at the polls, there are some really
significant councils that you could | 0:53:10 | 0:53:14 | |
lose. The Tories really struggling
in London? Are they going to | 0:53:14 | 0:53:20 | |
struggle for some time? Have they
given up on the capital? Far from | 0:53:20 | 0:53:24 | |
it. One of the things we have to do
is say, people have to go out on the | 0:53:24 | 0:53:31 | |
doorsteps and sell the benefits of
having a Conservative run council. | 0:53:31 | 0:53:36 | |
These national issues run through to
locally. Our local councils are | 0:53:36 | 0:53:41 | |
definitely suffering from the cuts
they are facing. School funding... | 0:53:41 | 0:53:45 | |
It isn't the school that has had to
go to its parents and say, could you | 0:53:45 | 0:53:51 | |
fund this? Could you help us with
that? What I am saying is, people | 0:53:51 | 0:53:57 | |
are feeling this byte locally
because of what is happening | 0:53:57 | 0:54:01 | |
nationally. The idea that they can't
send a message is a false one. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:08 | |
People will vote on the things that
matter to them, and it will be a mix | 0:54:08 | 0:54:13 | |
of national issues, a mix of Brexit.
In Richmond it's going to be | 0:54:13 | 0:54:18 | |
Heathrow. They are fed up of local
Conservatives being opposed to | 0:54:18 | 0:54:26 | |
Heathrow Airport, but living with
the party centrally being in favour | 0:54:26 | 0:54:28 | |
of that third runway. Susan says it
is a mix of the local and national | 0:54:28 | 0:54:34 | |
in these elections, but isn't it the
case that the government has | 0:54:34 | 0:54:39 | |
overlooked London, because they have
been so focused on regional | 0:54:39 | 0:54:43 | |
devolution elsewhere. We hear a lot
about the northern powerhouse and | 0:54:43 | 0:54:48 | |
train links elsewhere in the
country. In London, we got | 0:54:48 | 0:54:52 | |
devolution first. Under a Labour
government, I think you will find. | 0:54:52 | 0:54:58 | |
In the same year that we got
elected. It was the first bill | 0:54:58 | 0:55:02 | |
introduced under the Labour
government in 97. I supported the | 0:55:02 | 0:55:08 | |
principle of having the Mayor of
London, and I think it is the right | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
thing for London. As a party, we
have to continue that process of | 0:55:11 | 0:55:17 | |
devolution. We have the 100%
retention of business rates for | 0:55:17 | 0:55:20 | |
London. We've got massive amounts of
money... We will have to leave it | 0:55:20 | 0:55:26 | |
there, and we will see what me and
the local election results bring. | 0:55:26 | 0:55:31 | |
Thank you very much. | 0:55:31 | 0:55:33 | |
On Tuesday, the Chancellor
will give us his Spring Statement - | 0:55:33 | 0:55:36 | |
he's ditched the big event
that was the Spring Budget. | 0:55:36 | 0:55:38 | |
Instead it'll be a run-down of
the state of the nation's finances. | 0:55:38 | 0:55:41 | |
So what could be in it
for London, and what would | 0:55:41 | 0:55:44 | |
our guests want to see? | 0:55:44 | 0:55:47 | |
Susan, you are the Lib Dems'
Treasury spokeswoman. Were you to be | 0:55:47 | 0:55:52 | |
there at the dispatch box, what
would you give for London? I believe | 0:55:52 | 0:55:56 | |
we should never look at it as London
or the regions. Everybody is in need | 0:55:56 | 0:56:06 | |
of massive infrastructure spending.
Frankly, this government has always | 0:56:06 | 0:56:11 | |
insisted on counting infrastructure
spending as if it was part of the | 0:56:11 | 0:56:14 | |
deficit. It never should. We should
be out there borrowing because, new | 0:56:14 | 0:56:21 | |
rail systems, whether it is new
transport networks, all of that | 0:56:21 | 0:56:25 | |
should be funded despite what is
happening on a day-to-day basis. I | 0:56:25 | 0:56:31 | |
would be doing major investment
across the country, both London, in | 0:56:31 | 0:56:35 | |
the north and in the Midlands.
Labour's manifesto did promote the | 0:56:35 | 0:56:40 | |
idea of borrowing to invest, but you
got quite a kicking from the | 0:56:40 | 0:56:48 | |
Conservatives. My personal wish from
the Spring statement is we could | 0:56:48 | 0:56:49 | |
have the 1.1 million pounds that the
Department of local government and | 0:56:49 | 0:56:55 | |
Housing gave back to the Treasury.
If they gave that back, we could | 0:56:55 | 0:57:01 | |
build over 20,000 prefabs on the
public land we were speaking about. | 0:57:01 | 0:57:05 | |
We would have 20,000 houses by the
summer. Will that happen? One of the | 0:57:05 | 0:57:12 | |
problems is that money that was
allocated to London for the Mayor of | 0:57:12 | 0:57:16 | |
London to use was returned,
essentially. 3.5 billion was | 0:57:16 | 0:57:21 | |
allocated. He has returned money for
affordable and social housing. You | 0:57:21 | 0:57:28 | |
are out campaigning for the local
elections. What are people saying | 0:57:28 | 0:57:31 | |
they want to hear about local
spending? Local spending is | 0:57:31 | 0:57:36 | |
allocating the money most
effectively. One of the problems in | 0:57:36 | 0:57:40 | |
most part of London is you will see
rough sleepers on the increase, | 0:57:40 | 0:57:45 | |
unfortunately, and providing decent
housing for people at a price they | 0:57:45 | 0:57:48 | |
can afford. The differences
possibly, I have taken some action, | 0:57:48 | 0:57:54 | |
and on the 3rd of April, why
homeless reduction act becomes | 0:57:54 | 0:57:59 | |
reality and local councils will have
responsibility. With the NHS and | 0:57:59 | 0:58:04 | |
social care, and London councils
have struggled through this period. | 0:58:04 | 0:58:14 | |
This is something that could be
tackled. Both the social care and | 0:58:14 | 0:58:19 | |
the funding side. The country is
ready for a dedicated tax to support | 0:58:19 | 0:58:24 | |
the NHS and social care. We have
asked the government if they would | 0:58:24 | 0:58:29 | |
put in place at least the beginning
of that, with a penny on the pound | 0:58:29 | 0:58:33 | |
in income taxed just literally for
the NHS and social care, and that | 0:58:33 | 0:58:38 | |
would take off the pressure. If the
government did just that one thing | 0:58:38 | 0:58:42 | |
in the spring statement, that would
genuinely change people's lives. A | 0:58:42 | 0:58:47 | |
final brief thought if we can. When
the Chancellor stands up, what can | 0:58:47 | 0:58:53 | |
we hear from Jeremy Corbyn in
response? Will he | 0:58:53 | 0:59:00 | |
response? Will he just or will he
have ideas of his own? He has plenty | 0:59:05 | 0:59:07 | |
of ideas, and if we could just have
that money back and build 20,000 | 0:59:07 | 0:59:10 | |
homes for the people who need them.
I would like to see improvements to | 0:59:10 | 0:59:13 | |
infrastructure, like Crossrail 2. We
raise the money from income tax and | 0:59:13 | 0:59:22 | |
other taxes, and it will be sent to
other parts of the country. I would | 0:59:22 | 0:59:26 | |
like to see the money raised in
London used in London for the | 0:59:26 | 0:59:29 | |
benefit of Londoners. I want to see
the money we raise in taxes used in | 0:59:29 | 0:59:34 | |
London on big infrastructure
projects. | 0:59:34 | 0:59:39 | |
That's all we have time for. | 0:59:39 | 0:59:40 | |
My thanks to Susan Kramer, Siobhan
McDonagh and to Bob Blackman. | 0:59:40 | 0:59:43 | |
And with that it's back to Sarah. | 0:59:43 | 0:59:45 | |
Welcome back. | 0:59:45 | 0:59:46 | |
The Chancellor's been out
and about this morning, | 0:59:46 | 0:59:48 | |
setting out his stall ahead
of the Spring Statement on Tuesday. | 0:59:48 | 0:59:51 | |
Here's what he told Andrew Marr. | 0:59:51 | 0:59:52 | |
There is light at the end
of the tunnel because what we are | 0:59:52 | 0:59:55 | |
about to see is debt starting
to fall after it's been growing | 0:59:55 | 1:00:00 | |
for 17 continuous years. | 1:00:00 | 1:00:02 | |
That's a very important moment
for us, but we are still | 1:00:02 | 1:00:05 | |
in the tunnel at the moment. | 1:00:05 | 1:00:06 | |
We have to get debt down. | 1:00:06 | 1:00:10 | |
We have got all sorts of other
things we want to do. | 1:00:10 | 1:00:13 | |
We've taken a balanced approach over
the last couple of fiscal events. | 1:00:13 | 1:00:16 | |
Using flexibility that we had
to continue paying down debt, | 1:00:16 | 1:00:22 | |
but also to provide additional
support to our public services, | 1:00:22 | 1:00:25 | |
to invest in Britain's future
and to reduce taxes for families | 1:00:25 | 1:00:27 | |
and small businesses
who are feeling the pressure. | 1:00:27 | 1:00:31 | |
Also appearing on the Andrew Marr
programme, the Shadow Chancellor | 1:00:31 | 1:00:35 | |
John McDonnell called
on the government to end | 1:00:35 | 1:00:37 | |
its austerity programme. | 1:00:37 | 1:00:44 | |
One thing he has done is he has
shifted the deficit onto the | 1:00:44 | 1:00:47 | |
shoulders of NHS managers, onto
shoulders of head teachers, and onto | 1:00:47 | 1:00:52 | |
the shoulders of local government
leaders and these Conservative | 1:00:52 | 1:00:57 | |
council leaders now are saying that
they are facing a financial crisis | 1:00:57 | 1:01:03 | |
because the government have had
cutbacks. This is not a matter of | 1:01:03 | 1:01:09 | |
celebration. I think he should come
into the real world because the | 1:01:09 | 1:01:13 | |
resolution foundation said in their
report today, 11 million people now, | 1:01:13 | 1:01:17 | |
not just the poorest but those just
about managing, will be hit next | 1:01:17 | 1:01:20 | |
month by the cuts in support they
get to the benefit system, so this | 1:01:20 | 1:01:24 | |
is not a matter for celebration by
any means. To unpick what we can | 1:01:24 | 1:01:29 | |
expect in the spring statement and
other stories next week, the panel | 1:01:29 | 1:01:32 | |
are still with me. We had the
Chancellor saying there is light at | 1:01:32 | 1:01:37 | |
the end of the tunnel. How much
pressure does is put on him from his | 1:01:37 | 1:01:42 | |
own side let alone from the
opposition to spend some more money? | 1:01:42 | 1:01:45 | |
There's an interesting split in the
Conservatives, those who say now we | 1:01:45 | 1:01:48 | |
have a lemonade of the current
budget deficit on day-to-day | 1:01:48 | 1:01:51 | |
spending, we should take a chance to
invest heavily in infrastructure to | 1:01:51 | 1:01:55 | |
give the NHS more money, to spend
money on schools, and then you have | 1:01:55 | 1:02:05 | |
the fiscal conservatives like Philip
Hammond to say actually debt is | 1:02:05 | 1:02:10 | |
still 84% of GDP, we have got to
start delivering overall surplus is | 1:02:10 | 1:02:15 | |
not borrowing money to get it down
because we face economic economic | 1:02:15 | 1:02:18 | |
risks from Brexit. We know Philip
Hammond does not look optimistically | 1:02:18 | 1:02:23 | |
at that. And an ageing population on
those pressures, so when things | 1:02:23 | 1:02:27 | |
start to seem as if they are
improving, you can't reduce the | 1:02:27 | 1:02:32 | |
momentum. It was interesting early
on the programme, talking to Sam | 1:02:32 | 1:02:39 | |
Gyimah, he said students thought
austerity was the ideological | 1:02:39 | 1:02:43 | |
position of the Conservative Party,
not a practical necessity. So if now | 1:02:43 | 1:02:49 | |
we are reaching a point where there
is potentially more money to spend, | 1:02:49 | 1:02:52 | |
politically would be wise? It is
because if the Conservatives failed | 1:02:52 | 1:03:00 | |
to establish this narrative which
they have been trying to form long | 1:03:00 | 1:03:03 | |
time, under Theresa May they have
abandoned it, this idea that living | 1:03:03 | 1:03:06 | |
within 1's means as a country is an
end to itself, I'm not sure what | 1:03:06 | 1:03:13 | |
will separate them from the Labour
ideology. If they absolutely abandon | 1:03:13 | 1:03:17 | |
the point they have to be careful
about how they spend their money, | 1:03:17 | 1:03:22 | |
they could pledge 10 billion to one
sector, and the Labour Party will | 1:03:22 | 1:03:27 | |
pledge 100. If they cannot make that
case it is responsible to be | 1:03:27 | 1:03:34 | |
spending money responsibly because
otherwise if you don't pay off your | 1:03:34 | 1:03:37 | |
debt, it will mean higher taxes on
future generations, these students | 1:03:37 | 1:03:42 | |
and their children have lost that
political argument already. The | 1:03:42 | 1:03:46 | |
defining political argument of this
premiership of Theresa May for the | 1:03:46 | 1:03:50 | |
many and not for the few, are the
fiscal messages we are hearing from | 1:03:50 | 1:03:54 | |
the Chancellor, do they relate to
that? Not in the slightest. You | 1:03:54 | 1:03:59 | |
heard on the Andrew Marr programme,
giving a receptacle slap in the | 1:03:59 | 1:04:06 | |
face, the author of the just about
managing speech, Mick Timothy is | 1:04:06 | 1:04:13 | |
going to try to beat up the
Chancellor on behalf of the Prime | 1:04:13 | 1:04:18 | |
Minister's behalf, so those tensions
will remain. I think the Chancellor | 1:04:18 | 1:04:22 | |
is even more anal-retentive on the
purse strings at the moment simply | 1:04:22 | 1:04:25 | |
because of the government, the
Tories don't have a majority. That | 1:04:25 | 1:04:31 | |
means any single minority interest
who can scrape together ten or 12 | 1:04:31 | 1:04:37 | |
Tory MPs, you can force the
government to do a U-turn and they | 1:04:37 | 1:04:41 | |
are piling up from defence spending,
a strong Tory bid coming down the | 1:04:41 | 1:04:46 | |
line on Universal Credit, putting
back 3 billion into it. IDS, the | 1:04:46 | 1:04:56 | |
socially conservative touchy-feely
end of the party, to the NHS, | 1:04:56 | 1:05:01 | |
tuition fees, every single one of
those minority interests will want | 1:05:01 | 1:05:05 | |
some sort of salvation. Now the
Chancellor announces bigger that £10 | 1:05:05 | 1:05:10 | |
million -- £10 billion a year more
yet to play with. Now usually at | 1:05:10 | 1:05:15 | |
this point we are talking about the
word Brexit and it does not come up | 1:05:15 | 1:05:23 | |
yet and we can't | 1:05:23 | 1:05:29 | |
yet and we can't ignore it it has
been a big Brexit week. Yes, we've | 1:05:29 | 1:05:35 | |
heard Philip Hammond tell us
financial services will have to form | 1:05:35 | 1:05:42 | |
the ultimate deal we get from the
EU, and we've also heard the EU's | 1:05:42 | 1:05:47 | |
guidelines. They are,
unsurprisingly, taking a hard line. | 1:05:47 | 1:05:53 | |
Those two things have happened.
Another interesting thing, there was | 1:05:53 | 1:06:01 | |
an interesting appointment that
happened in the EU last | 1:06:01 | 1:06:14 | |
happened in the EU last week,
Jean-Claude Juncker's write man | 1:06:14 | 1:06:16 | |
became secretary-general of the
commission. There is a lot of | 1:06:16 | 1:06:21 | |
disquiet amongst the MPs about this
from across the European Union, but | 1:06:21 | 1:06:26 | |
also political divides within the
EU, and tomorrow they are demanding | 1:06:26 | 1:06:31 | |
some answers in the European
Parliament about this particular | 1:06:31 | 1:06:35 | |
appointment and we, the Brexit
nerds, we'll look at it very | 1:06:35 | 1:06:39 | |
carefully. It raises some
interesting questions and | 1:06:39 | 1:06:41 | |
transparency and accountability
within the European framework. The | 1:06:41 | 1:06:47 | |
international trade Secretary Liam
Fox is off to Washington at the very | 1:06:47 | 1:06:50 | |
time the US president is threatening
tariffs on steel and aluminium and | 1:06:50 | 1:06:56 | |
it's an interesting one for British
government because Trump has said | 1:06:56 | 1:07:00 | |
allies can come and make their case
to be exempted from this and Canada | 1:07:00 | 1:07:02 | |
and Mexico have been, but we should
not be going separately as the UK | 1:07:02 | 1:07:08 | |
because we are part of the European
Union at the moment, but if we can | 1:07:08 | 1:07:11 | |
cut a deal, how would that go down
in Brussels? Conservatives like Liam | 1:07:11 | 1:07:15 | |
Fox said for years once we are
outside the EU the advantages is we | 1:07:15 | 1:07:22 | |
can get beneficial trade deals with
major economies like the USA, and | 1:07:22 | 1:07:26 | |
now he has the chance to test Donald
Trump's words, so there's been lots | 1:07:26 | 1:07:31 | |
of rhetoric about Donald Trump about
you guys will get a big trade deal, | 1:07:31 | 1:07:35 | |
but in reality he's always been a
protectionist on trade. Will you | 1:07:35 | 1:07:39 | |
make an exception for Britain? Does
he think we are a significant and | 1:07:39 | 1:07:44 | |
economy to make that case? If Liam
Fox could get something, it would be | 1:07:44 | 1:07:48 | |
a win for the Brexiteers. The
government postponed the boat on a | 1:07:48 | 1:07:54 | |
customs union because they were
worried about losing it on the floor | 1:07:54 | 1:07:57 | |
of the Commons after the Labour
shift full support they can get a | 1:07:57 | 1:07:59 | |
concession, it would help. A
potential windfall Liam Fox but | 1:07:59 | 1:08:04 | |
fraught with danger. If he gets a
deal, the EU will be furious and | 1:08:04 | 1:08:07 | |
that could affect the Brexit
negotiations. If he doesn't come it | 1:08:07 | 1:08:11 | |
will be rather embarrassing. He
can't get a deal until 2021, an | 1:08:11 | 1:08:15 | |
awful long time away. We remain
within the EU's tariffs regime until | 1:08:15 | 1:08:25 | |
2021 because that is what we wanted.
New Year's Eve 2020. There ain't a | 1:08:25 | 1:08:33 | |
huge amount the government can do.
If the government could broker a | 1:08:33 | 1:08:36 | |
deal, there's talk of doing this,
not country by country, but the Port | 1:08:36 | 1:08:43 | |
Talbot manufacturers, high-density
steel used to warships, he could try | 1:08:43 | 1:08:50 | |
to broker some sort of exemption
with that, but it will interview | 1:08:50 | 1:08:53 | |
read the EU and give us an | 1:08:53 | 1:09:00 | |
read the EU and give us an even
worse deal. I don't think Liam Fox | 1:09:00 | 1:09:02 | |
I'm afraid we'll win this debate.
The big story with the Labour Party | 1:09:02 | 1:09:06 | |
the moment of course is the election
for their new general secretary. The | 1:09:06 | 1:09:12 | |
founder of momentum standing against
Jennie Formby from Unite. This is | 1:09:12 | 1:09:16 | |
not the left and right battle we
have been used within the Labour | 1:09:16 | 1:09:19 | |
Party the two very strong
significance figures from the left | 1:09:19 | 1:09:22 | |
of the party battling it out to take
over general secretary. Does it | 1:09:22 | 1:09:26 | |
matter which one of them wins and
how this proceeds for the Labour | 1:09:26 | 1:09:30 | |
Party? It matters because you have
two rival conceptions about the | 1:09:30 | 1:09:33 | |
Labour Party should be. The view of
momentum is you need more power is | 1:09:33 | 1:09:39 | |
transferred to members giving
members greater influence over | 1:09:39 | 1:09:44 | |
policy and the trade unions still
have half of the boat on Labour | 1:09:44 | 1:09:48 | |
Party policy which act as a block
and gives the general secretary huge | 1:09:48 | 1:09:52 | |
power and then you have the Labour
Party founded by the trade unions, | 1:09:52 | 1:09:57 | |
we are nothing without the trade
unions, of course they have to be at | 1:09:57 | 1:10:00 | |
the centre of the Labour Party and
therefore it is entirely appropriate | 1:10:00 | 1:10:05 | |
Jennie Formby should become the new
party general secretary, but this is | 1:10:05 | 1:10:07 | |
a fascinating element and the left
have defeated all of the internal | 1:10:07 | 1:10:11 | |
opponents and it is now the split
within the new party establishment | 1:10:11 | 1:10:16 | |
that is playing out and some will
draw comparisons with the Blairites | 1:10:16 | 1:10:19 | |
and Brown Knights of the past. The
two rival visions of what Corbin is | 1:10:19 | 1:10:24 | |
should mean for Labour. With policy
and vocations? Will make a | 1:10:24 | 1:10:28 | |
difference to the of the Labour
Party or is it about who it is? | 1:10:28 | 1:10:34 | |
Small policy implications. Momentum
are about as far left as you can | 1:10:34 | 1:10:38 | |
possibly get at the moment in terms
of selling up nationalisation is. | 1:10:38 | 1:10:45 | |
Len McCluskey, unite, not perhaps
quite as hard left as momentum. I | 1:10:45 | 1:10:52 | |
think it is more the culture who
runs the party, who has controls and | 1:10:52 | 1:11:00 | |
what's fascinating is watching the
Labour moderates this week. There's | 1:11:00 | 1:11:04 | |
a few of them around. One of them
described it as predator versus | 1:11:04 | 1:11:10 | |
alien for the two terrible enemies
eating each other as the revolution | 1:11:10 | 1:11:16 | |
always eats its children will be a
great battle my feeling is the union | 1:11:16 | 1:11:19 | |
will win it. They have the muscle
and bigger numbers than momentum at | 1:11:19 | 1:11:23 | |
the moment. Labour moderates, it's
been suggested Harriet Harman could | 1:11:23 | 1:11:27 | |
be interested in being the next
Speaker of the House of Commons. The | 1:11:27 | 1:11:31 | |
second ever female speaker of
course, but John Bercow has been | 1:11:31 | 1:11:35 | |
there for a long time although there
are allegations about bullying in | 1:11:35 | 1:11:38 | |
his office which have resurfaced
this week. Is there an opportunity | 1:11:38 | 1:11:42 | |
do you think? Yes, would be
interesting is how these bullying | 1:11:42 | 1:11:49 | |
allegations, which are only
allegations at this stage, play out. | 1:11:49 | 1:11:53 | |
It's been talked about quite a lot
and we have talked about this in the | 1:11:53 | 1:11:56 | |
Green room actually, when John
Bercow to go but he set himself a | 1:11:56 | 1:12:01 | |
limit, coming to an end, the middle
of this year. Does that mean he's | 1:12:01 | 1:12:04 | |
now leaving his job? I think he has
immensely enjoyed it but the MPs | 1:12:04 | 1:12:11 | |
perhaps not so much on both sides.
It will be interesting to see how | 1:12:11 | 1:12:16 | |
that happens. And if it would be
Harriet Harman, how the Tory MPs are | 1:12:16 | 1:12:20 | |
going to react to her taking on as
well? The Tory MPs don't like John | 1:12:20 | 1:12:26 | |
Bercow. They don't like John Bercow
or Harriet Harman but for her to | 1:12:26 | 1:12:34 | |
become the speaker would be
significant. Both culturally and | 1:12:34 | 1:12:37 | |
politically. She's done more than
any other MP to advance women's | 1:12:37 | 1:12:41 | |
rights and you can see why, with
such concern about the harassment | 1:12:41 | 1:12:45 | |
allegations and bullying now at
Westminster, for Harriet Harman to | 1:12:45 | 1:12:50 | |
become the speaker would be a very
important development for the its | 1:12:50 | 1:12:55 | |
Labour MPs actually who have propped
up John Bercow. He lost the | 1:12:55 | 1:12:59 | |
confidence of his own side and if
they start to turn on him his days | 1:12:59 | 1:13:02 | |
could be numbered. Very briefly,
Harriet Harman? Can you see it? Yes | 1:13:02 | 1:13:09 | |
because John Bercow has about ten
Tory MP mates, plus the entire | 1:13:09 | 1:13:13 | |
Labour vote and will always win
unless the Tories can find someone | 1:13:13 | 1:13:16 | |
they liked even more than John
Bercow and there aren't that many | 1:13:16 | 1:13:19 | |
more public people in the party than
Harriet Harman. Thank you all for | 1:13:19 | 1:13:24 | |
coming in. | 1:13:24 | 1:13:26 | |
Join me again next Sunday
at 11 here on BBC One. | 1:13:26 | 1:13:29 | |
Until then, bye bye. | 1:13:29 | 1:13:35 |
As the investigation into the nerve agent attack in Salisbury continues, Sarah Smith talks to the former home secretary Jack Straw and former diplomat and security minister, Pauline Neville Jones. She is also joined by the universities minister, Sam Gyimah - who is touring the country trying to attract young people to the Conservative Party. On the political panel are the Sun's political editor Tom Newton-Dunn, the Daily Telegraph's Brexit editor Dia Chakravarty and political editor of the New Statesman George Eaton.