04/03/2018 Sunday Politics London


04/03/2018

Sarah Smith and Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Lord Howard, Andrew Gwynne MP and David Lidington MP.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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Theresa May's big Brexit speech

appears to have done the impossible

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and united both sides

of her party for the time being

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but is the devil in the detail?

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We'll get the verdicts of former

Tory leader and Brexit supporter

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Lord Howard and leading backbencher

and Remain campaigner Nicky Morgan,

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and ask if they can

really both be happy.

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Away from Brexit, the Government yet

again promises to take on the Nimbys

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and build more houses

where we need them most.

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We'll go

through the proposals in detail.

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In London, with 1 million EU

citizens eligible to vote,

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will the local elections

in the capital become

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a referendum on Brexit?

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me today, I've got three

hardy souls who've struggled

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through the harsh conditions

to help me to make sense of all

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the big stories - Isabel Oakeshott,

Steve Richards and Anushka Asthana.

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Well, it was as week where politics

was often given second billing

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to the weather, with people up

and down the country battling

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the Beast from the East.

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But snow or not, Theresa May had her

crucial Brexit speech to give,

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and she had a few big beasts herself

to contend with.

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Forget the weather, the UK faced

a Brexit blizzard this week.

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On Monday, Jeremy Corbyn offered up

a clear dividing line between Labour

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and the Conservatives.

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Labour would keep Britain

in a customs union with the EU.

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Labour would seek to negotiate

a new, comprehensive UK EU customs

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union to ensure there are no

tariffs with Europe.

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On Tuesday, international

trade secretary Liam Fox

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immediately hit back.

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It would be a complete sell-out

of Britain's national interest

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and a betrayal of the voters

in the referendum.

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But his speech was overshadowed

by a warning shot from the former

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boss of his own department -

Sir Martin Donnelly said leaving

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the single market and the customs

union would risk the UK

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going from feast to famine.

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It's like giving up a three course

meal for a packet of crisps.

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Also on Tuesday, Foreign Secretary

Boris Johnson took to the radio

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waves to try to ease tensions

on Northern Ireland after Brexit.

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He wasn't entirely persuasive.

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There's no border between

Camden and Westminster.

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You can't compare two boroughs

of London with the kind

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of difference in the arrangements

that would be in place after Brexit

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between the UK and the EU.

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I think it's a very

relevant comparison.

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On Wednesday, former

Prime Minister Sir John Major said

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MPs should be given a free vote

on the final Brexit deal.

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So let Parliament decide or put

the issue back to the people.

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And the EU Commission published

the first legal draft

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of the UK's exit treaty.

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The proposals were controversial.

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To avoid a hard border,

Northern Ireland must stay

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in the customs union

if all else fails.

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Theresa May was having none of it.

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No UK Prime Minister

could ever agree to it.

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On Thursday, diplomatic niceties

with the European Council

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President Donald Tusk,

as he got a preview of the Prime

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Minister's big Brexit speech.

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But the real test would come later,

when she would need a lot

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of grit to keep all members

of her own party onside.

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The big day arrived,

and with it some hard truths.

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We are leaving the single market.

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Life is going to be different.

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In certain ways, our access to each

other's markets will be

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less than it is now.

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Even after we have

left the jurisdiction

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of the European Court of Justice,

EU law and the decisions of the ECJ

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will continue to affect us.

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This was also a pitch

for a pick and mix Brexit.

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She said all EU trade deals

are tailor-made and what Britain

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wants is no different.

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If this is cherry picking,

then every trade arrangement

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is cherry picking.

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He was happy, and so was he.

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Despite being stranded

and left out in the cold.

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So, has the Prime Minister managed

to thaw the tensions

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between her Cabinet on Brexit?

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Time will tell.

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There is more than enough to chew

over with our expert panel who will

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tell us what's been going on behind

the scenes this week. Anushka, we

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asked the question, has she achieved

the impossible and United warring

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factions of the Conservative Party

over Brexit? It looks that way, will

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it stay that way?

It is impressive

politically that your guests will

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both have some praise for the speech

but it doesn't mean they agree with

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each other when it comes to Brexit.

I'm sure there's a lot they continue

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to disagree about. She managed to do

that by doubling down on the red

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lines she already had but saying

beyond that we will try to get as

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close as we can to the EU. I don't

think the Brexiteers are totally

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happy, they see this as a staging

post and happy that what she said

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future parliaments can change it.

She has done a magic trick now but

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trouble ahead still.

Isabel, a lot

of it was how in the immediate

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future we will stay tangibly similar

to EU rules and regulations, that

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won't hold with the Brexiteer crowd,

will it?

Only an idiot would predict

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peace and harmony within the Tory

party for more than a few days.

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party for more than a few days. I

think they recognise the immense

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discipline the Prime Minister

injected into the speech, in some

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ways that means bits of it don't

please everybody. There was

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frustration at the way she handled

some of the questions afterwards.

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Some would have liked her, for

example Nigel Farage, outside of the

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party of course, would have liked

her to be more explicit that no deal

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remains an option. On the other

hand, had she said that, that is

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provocative. I think Tory MPs found

she struck a balance and a great

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feeling of positivity this weekend,

maybe not next.

Steve, did it tell

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us a huge amount about what Brexit

deal might look like? Or is Theresa

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May sitting on the fence about what

the future deal will be?

I don't

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think she is sitting on the fence.

She gave a clear idea of what she

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envisages it to be. Watching it, and

reading it several times, I have

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reached the conclusion that she is

the only person that can lead this

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party.

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You have Michael Howard on in a

minute, you knows how difficult it

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is to do. She can do it and I think

they would be daft to get rid of

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her. However, having read the

speech, it is full of unexploded

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bombs metaphorically speaking. Like

the budgets that go down well on the

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day and then turn out to have hidden

bombs, I think this one does. In her

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admission we are giving up things,

we won't have the same market

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access, in saying we have given up

passporting for the financial

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services already. She did it to show

we weren't having our cake and

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eating it, she was honest, but it is

depressing to have that candour

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explained so clearly. And in

explaining we will be fully aligned

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with the EU in many ways but have

the right to diverged even if it is

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against our interest. And the all of

this, to have the right to diverge

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at a future date seems fraught with

difficulty. I see problems down

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road.

Steve's point about only this

Prime Minister can lead the party is

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a very astute one and that's what

I'm picking up this weekend, even

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from those who have been her

harshest critics, at her ability not

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to say too much which makes her seem

rather boring at times is precisely

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the reason she can manage these

delicate factions. I definitely feel

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time has run out now for those who

would like to have seen her gone

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well before Brexit next year. I feel

that has evaporated milk. We might

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be in a different place in a few

months but I would suspect not.

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Anushka bitchy answer the question

about the border between the

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Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon

Coveney said he's not sure the EU

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can support the plan she came up

with.

Both sides can smile and say

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they don't want a border, the

question is how you achieve that.

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The Government have put forward

these options, a customs partnership

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which is a slightly weird system

under which there would be checks on

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the UK border that would then be

acceptable for the rest of the EU.

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The problem is the rest of the EU

have suggested that won't be

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acceptable to them, and even very

senior figures in Government around

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the Cabinet table have told me they

think it is a completely unrealistic

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option. The second option is to use

technology to make it flow freely,

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perhaps not quite as Boris

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perhaps not quite as Boris Johnson

was suggesting, it happens in the

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congestion charge in London. He was

slightly mocked for those comments,

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but can there be a way to make it

softer in that way? Perhaps there

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can but there is no evidence you

would end up with no border. Then

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there's that tricky situation of the

EU saying the backstop is Northern

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Ireland stays in the customs union,

and the Prime Minister says that is

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unacceptable.

Thank you for that,

stay with us.

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Theresa May was on the

Andrew Marr Show this

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morning, and she was asked how

the UK's rules and regulations

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might move away from

the EU's in the future.

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Parliament will be able to take

decisions about the rules that

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are set, so in the circumstances

in which the EU

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change a particular rule,

there'd be a decision

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for us to take.

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Did we accept it

in the future or not?

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But if we didn't accept it,

there'd be an arbitration mechanism,

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an independent arbitration

mechanism, so people

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would look at it and say,

actually, you know what,

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if the UK doesn't accept that,

does it make any difference

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to the trading relationship?

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And they might say no, it doesn't,

so there's no consequence.

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They might say yes, it does,

and so there would be a consequence.

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So you're saying we might

lose market access -

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the more we diverge,

the more market access

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we might lose in the future.

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There'd be a decision to be taken.

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Joining me now from

Loughborough is the former

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Education Secretary Nicky Morgan,

who put her name down on a Commons

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amendment that calls for the UK

to participate in a customs union

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with the EU after Brexit.

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Good morning. So you heard the Prime

Minister ruling out a customs union

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which is what you say you want, and

they will be less access to EU

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markets in future, you cannot be

very happy with this speech, can

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you?

I thought it was a very

realistic speech that set out the

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compromises and hard facts we have

to face, and I think it was a

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welcome dose of realism. That's why

I think it has been welcomed from

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people on all sides of the debate

because we can get away from

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pretending things will stay the

same, that we can have the same

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benefits, and be honest with

ourselves and our constituents about

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what that means. The reason MPs put

down amendments is to get ministers

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to explain their position is more

fully and that's what we began to

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see in the Prime Minister's speech

on this issue of the border between

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Northern Ireland, the Republic of

Ireland on Friday. The Prime

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Minister could not have been more

clear this morning and last week

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that she does not want to see a hard

border between them, and that's

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where we are as well. I think there

are more discussions to come about

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the two options, as Anushka was

setting out, that the Prime Minister

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outlined, and we will have to see

what happens when the bill comes

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back to the House of Commons.

Your

amendment wasn't just about Northern

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Ireland, it said you want the UK to

stay in the customs union with the

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EU. Now you say you want to talk to

the Prime Minister about this. Talk

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about what? We are either in the

customs union or knots and her

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speech made it clear she didn't want

a customs union.

I can speak for

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myself and my colleagues, many of

whom put their name down, it was

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about the Irish border issue because

many of us got to the stage of

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thinking how can this be resolved

without being in a customs union. I

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think many of us don't care what it

is called, it's a question of what

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it does. Does it avoid a hard border

and small traders having to make

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declarations each time they crossed

the border? I was a Treasury duties

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minister, I visited the Irish border

and it is 300 miles of incredibly

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porous countryside basically. People

are crossing it everyday for work,

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for trading, and it's not just about

the economics, it's about the

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cultural and political significance

of not a hard border.

The Irish

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government and Irish Foreign

Minister Simon Coveney were saying

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this morning he didn't think EU

would accept this. Theresa May said

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a long she doesn't want a hard

border, just saying that doesn't

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mean it won't happen and the EU

don't seem satisfied with what she

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laid out as a possible solution.

The

first point is, as I said in a tweet

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on Friday, the EU cannot say and

Simon Coveney recognise that this

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morning, the EU cannot say it

doesn't know what the UK Government

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wants. Simon Coveney also agreed, as

the Prime Minister rightly set out,

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this is a problem that has been

created by Brexit and it's up to the

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UK Government, the EU and Irish

government to work together to find

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a solution. I think it is right that

talks will continue in one of those

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areas where it is best for the Irish

government and UK Government to be

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talking directly because at the

moment what's been remarkable is how

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cohesive the 27 have been in

negotiating through the commission

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but there may be ways to speed up

discussions, particularly on the

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Irish border issue. What we saw on

Friday is the Prime Minister saying

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there's difficult things ahead.

People won't remember ultimately the

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negotiations, they will remember the

enduring deal that's struck, that

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puts livelihoods and economic

security first.

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One of the hard fact is that she

laid out is we will have less access

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to EU markets. That is one of the

things that you as a Remainer have

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been worried about. Maybe she is

being pragmatic and you're welcome

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that, but is that pragmatism not

admitting were going to be worse off

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in future as a result of this?

I

think it probably is. Actually,

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while the speech was well come in

its towns, it did set out some of

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these hard truths. Some people have

said, nothing will change, it will

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have exactly the same benefits but

that is not the case. I am chair of

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the Treasury Select Committee, we

look at financial services. That

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industry understands that things are

going to change. The Prime Minister

0:16:220:16:26

was clear, no more passporting.

People have reconciled themselves to

0:16:260:16:31

this in the city. What next? The

Prime Minister is talking about

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mutual recognition of regulations,

that is the way to go, that is

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achievable, but this is the start of

negotiations and it is a long way to

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go. At least we are now on the

starting blocks. Your right to say

0:16:440:16:49

that many of us have been concerned

about the prosperity and livelihoods

0:16:490:16:54

of people in our constituencies and

our businesses. We welcome this

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speech but we will continue to watch

out for any drifting backwards

0:16:580:17:02

towards some kind of idea logically

driven hard Brexit. That does not

0:17:020:17:07

benefit anybody. As the Prime

Minister said on Friday, reverting

0:17:070:17:12

to WTO is not a good outcome that

will benefit people in this country.

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The Prime Minister made clear that

the UK after Brexit can choose to

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stay aligned with the rules and

regulations of the EU or future

0:17:210:17:24

parliaments to choose to diverged.

In those circumstances you will be

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fighting every step of the week to

try to stay aligned with the EU, I

0:17:290:17:33

take it?

Not necessarily. That was a

really well come statement from the

0:17:330:17:39

Prime Minister. It is for the

sovereign parliament to be making

0:17:390:17:42

these decisions in future, which is

why we had the debate over the

0:17:420:17:46

amendment in December because

ultimately it should be sovereign

0:17:460:17:50

Parliament that makes these key

decisions in the future. In terms of

0:17:500:17:55

divergences regulation, there may

well be good arguments in the future

0:17:550:17:58

by businesses and industry say, we

do not need to be aligned with that

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regulation, because there is a

higher international standard that

0:18:030:18:06

we can all get around and following

that will benefit our businesses.

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The point is, at the moment,

Parliament will take decisions about

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things on the basis of listening to

constituents, and that is what will

0:18:150:18:20

happen in the future. That is

welcome. Financial services, that is

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the message we're getting by, there

are some international standards,

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which is what business already

comply with, higher standards than

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the EU, and that is what businesses

want to on complying with.

Nicky

0:18:320:18:37

Morgan, thank you for talking to us.

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Listening to that is the former

Conservative leader Lord Howard,

0:18:400:18:42

who campaigned for Britain

to leave the EU.

0:18:420:18:44

You were nodding away in agreement

with Nicky Morgan all the way

0:18:440:18:48

through that interview. Not

something we thought we were going

0:18:480:18:51

to see happen in the studio.

You

agree with her? I agree with very

0:18:510:18:55

much of what she said and I am

delighted to be able to agree with

0:18:550:18:59

her. Can I just say this about the

speech on Friday, I thought it

0:18:590:19:03

should the Prime Minister at her

best, cam, patient, disciplined.

0:19:030:19:09

That is exactly the kind of approach

we need in these negotiations. I

0:19:090:19:15

think Steve Richards was right when

he said she is the only person who

0:19:150:19:19

can lead the country through these

negotiations, and she showed her

0:19:190:19:23

qualities on Friday, and I think it

was an excellent speech, and it is

0:19:230:19:30

something, of course it is a good

thing from my point of view that it

0:19:300:19:33

seems to have united the

Conservative Party, but more

0:19:330:19:37

importantly, I think it has united

the country. I think everyone in the

0:19:370:19:42

country, except perhaps those few

people are neither extreme, can

0:19:420:19:46

rally round. People like John Major

and Tony Blair? I fear that on this

0:19:460:19:53

issue John Major and Tony Blair are

to make love the people who have

0:19:530:19:56

never been able to reconcile

themselves to the results of the

0:19:560:20:00

referendum. I think a large majority

of people in the country, even of

0:20:000:20:05

those who voted Remain, they now

say, let's get on with it and see

0:20:050:20:10

what we can get out of these

negotiations. Nicky Morgan was

0:20:100:20:14

absolutely right when she said that

in years to come people will not be

0:20:140:20:18

looking back at the negotiations.

They will be looking back at the

0:20:180:20:22

outcome.

The negotiations matter

because they determine the outcome.

0:20:220:20:26

You like the tone of the speech.

When you look at the detail, does it

0:20:260:20:31

really amounted taking back control

when the Prime Minister says the UK

0:20:310:20:34

will need to make a strong

commitment that regulatory standards

0:20:340:20:38

will remain as high as the EU and in

practice they will remain similar in

0:20:380:20:42

the future?

That is not what you

campaign for. In many respects they

0:20:420:20:47

will be similar. As the Prime

Minister said this morning, on the

0:20:470:20:50

Andrew Marr programme, these

regulations are not EU regulations,

0:20:500:20:55

the international regulations. The

crucial thing is that our sovereign

0:20:550:21:02

parliament, in future, will be able

to decide whether we remain in a

0:21:020:21:05

layman, which in many cases would be

a sensible thing to do, or whether

0:21:050:21:11

we diverged, which could also be

sensible. That is what taking back

0:21:110:21:15

control means.

The sovereign

parliament will decide. Look at

0:21:150:21:19

where we do remain in alignment and

a hard fact that Theresa May picked

0:21:190:21:23

out there, in order to maintain

access we may have to maintain a

0:21:230:21:27

layman. The EU will change their

rules over the next few deals --

0:21:270:21:31

over the next few years. We will end

up having to mirror rules that we

0:21:310:21:35

had no say at all in making if we

want to maintain access.

That is not

0:21:350:21:40

control. We will be able to decide.

In some cases it may be sensible to

0:21:400:21:46

change rules to remain in alignment

with the European Union's rules but

0:21:460:21:49

in other cases it will not be, and

we will be able to decide. That is

0:21:490:21:55

what taking back control means.

You're perfectly happy with

0:21:550:21:59

associated membership of some of the

EU agencies, medicine, chemicals,

0:21:590:22:04

the aviation safety agency, and with

paying a fee to be -- to be a

0:22:040:22:12

member. Very sensible. A year ago

you would not have been telling us

0:22:120:22:16

that you wanted to stay a member of

any of these agents is a tall.

You

0:22:160:22:22

never ask me. You would have been

surprised by the answer. These are

0:22:220:22:25

sensible, practical arrangements

that we benefit from, and the EU

0:22:250:22:29

benefits.

It is sensible. We were

promised famously by David Davis

0:22:290:22:34

that we would have the exact same

benefits of being in the customs

0:22:340:22:38

union and the single market after

Brexit. The Prime Minister herself

0:22:380:22:43

said something similar. Now she's

telling us we will have less access.

0:22:430:22:48

When people were told we could leave

the EU and maintain the same

0:22:480:22:52

benefits, were they being lied to?

Not at all. I think it is a

0:22:520:22:56

consequence of what the Prime

Minister has said, that in all

0:22:560:23:00

important respects, we will have the

access we need. There may be some

0:23:000:23:04

areas where that will not be the

case, but she dealt with the most

0:23:040:23:08

important aspect in her speech on

Friday and should have in the most

0:23:080:23:11

important areas we will be able to

have access. I think that will be

0:23:110:23:17

the outcome. It is in the interests

of the European Union as well as

0:23:170:23:20

ourselves that that should be so.

They want access to our large

0:23:200:23:25

market. We are one of the six

biggest economies in the world. They

0:23:250:23:29

want access to our markets. It will

be on both our interest to reach

0:23:290:23:33

that sort of agreement.

Both wings

of the Tory party might be happy

0:23:330:23:37

with this. The speech was received

less enthusiastically in Brussels.

0:23:370:23:42

The EU will publish their draft

guidelines on how they see a future

0:23:420:23:46

deal on Tuesday. If they do not

accept the approach that Theresa May

0:23:460:23:50

has laid out, what should she do

next?

Let's concentrate on the

0:23:500:23:55

positives. We are in a negotiation.

There will inevitably be posturing

0:23:550:24:00

by the European Union in the course

of these negotiations. That is what

0:24:000:24:04

negotiations always bring with them.

But I think, as I say, it is in both

0:24:040:24:09

our interest that we should have a

good deal. At the end of the day,

0:24:090:24:14

they want our money. They will not

get our money unless there is a good

0:24:140:24:19

deal.

It has been said that a trade

deal cannot be said by putting up a

0:24:190:24:24

few extra cherries in the Brexit

cake. This speech did not persuade

0:24:240:24:27

him that is a deal to be done.

He is

not in charge of the negotiations.

0:24:270:24:33

Michel Barnier did not seem terribly

impressed. Are they going to accept

0:24:330:24:40

the Prime Minister's view that you

can accept different access for

0:24:400:24:42

different sectors?

Let's wait and

see. Michel Barnier welcome the

0:24:420:24:47

speech. There is lots of posturing.

It is invading tress and hours to

0:24:470:24:52

arrive at a deal that is very

similar to that which the Prime

0:24:520:24:56

Minister set on Friday.

You're being

very positive about with the EU is

0:24:560:25:01

likely to do. They may well not do

that. Is there a point at which the

0:25:010:25:06

Prime Minister may be forced to walk

away because they will not meet

0:25:060:25:10

halfway?

I hope not but if you go

into any negotiations in, I want to

0:25:100:25:15

deal at any price, you will be taken

to the cleaners. That is true of

0:25:150:25:21

every negotiation. I agree with the

Prime Minister when she says that in

0:25:210:25:25

the ultimate circumstance, no deal

is better than a bad deal, but I do

0:25:250:25:28

not think we're going to have a bad

deal, I think we're going to have a

0:25:280:25:32

deal along the lines the Prime

Minister set out on Friday.

She said

0:25:320:25:35

we are going to have to compromise

and we are not

0:25:350:25:42

and we are not going to get what we

want. We will have to meet someone

0:25:420:25:45

in the middle on this and the

response from the EU has not been to

0:25:450:25:49

say, we agree, let's talk about

compromise, it has to -- it has been

0:25:490:25:51

to maintain a lot of their hard

lines about cherry picking.

That

0:25:510:25:55

will change. Their approach to the

negotiations on the first stage

0:25:550:25:57

changed. All sorts of figures were

bandied about about the money we

0:25:570:26:02

would have to pay and they bore no

reality to the ultimate outcome. You

0:26:020:26:07

have to take these initial

negotiating positions with a pinch

0:26:070:26:09

of salt.

When the EU was negotiating

with Greece during its financial

0:26:090:26:17

crisis, they were absolutely

insistent, they did not soften their

0:26:170:26:19

lines.

No disrespect to Greece, but

we are not Greece. The European

0:26:190:26:27

Union needs access to our markets.

The European Union needs our money.

0:26:270:26:32

The situation is very, very

different from that which happened

0:26:320:26:36

between the EU and Greece.

Lord

Howard, thank you for talking to us

0:26:360:26:40

this morning.

0:26:400:26:43

As we've heard, Jeremy Corbyn

made his own big speech on Brexit

0:26:430:26:46

earlier in the week and he backed

a customs union.

0:26:460:26:48

So how would it work?

0:26:480:26:49

With me from Salford

is the Shadow Communities

0:26:490:26:51

Secretary, Andrew Gwynne.

0:26:510:26:52

Thank you very much for coming in to

speak to us today. We have got to

0:26:520:26:57

make a very different approaches.

Jeremy Corbyn at the beginning of

0:26:570:27:00

the week saying he wanted to stay in

a customs union, Theresa May on

0:27:000:27:06

Friday pretty much ruling it out. Is

it not Theresa May who is being

0:27:060:27:11

honest with the voters by laying out

the hard fact, as she puts it, that

0:27:110:27:15

we will have to accept we have less

access to the EU market?

Absolutely

0:27:150:27:20

not. That we are leaving the

European Union is decided. We had a

0:27:200:27:25

referendum, but the Thames by which

we leave the European Union is what

0:27:250:27:29

the negotiations are all about and

the Labour Party has always said it

0:27:290:27:32

would seek to maintain the benefits

of a customs union. In doing that,

0:27:320:27:37

we have set out our proposals for

what we think that new arrangement

0:27:370:27:41

should be, I bespoke agreement

between the EU in the UK that would

0:27:410:27:48

maintain the benefits of tariff free

trade between the UK and the

0:27:480:27:51

European Union going forward. But

one in which we are equal partners,

0:27:510:27:56

so we have a say on those new trade

deals that are being made and a half

0:27:560:28:02

of the new arrangements between our

two trading blocs.

That has never

0:28:020:28:07

happened with any other country that

has entered into a customs union

0:28:070:28:10

with the EU. Why do you think they

would give us an equal say, one of

0:28:100:28:15

us against 27 of them, when it came

to a negotiating a trade deal with

0:28:150:28:20

someone else somewhere else in the

world?

The EU is different trading

0:28:200:28:23

arrangements with different

countries.

It does and none of them

0:28:230:28:27

have a say in outside trade deals.

The difference here, as Lord Howard

0:28:270:28:32

said, we are the largest economy the

world. The European Union has

0:28:320:28:38

important trading links with the

United Kingdom, it is a two-way

0:28:380:28:42

process, and therefore it is in both

of interest that we strike a deal

0:28:420:28:46

that benefits both of us.

I do not

know what is happening on this

0:28:460:28:50

programme. You are agreeing with

Laura Taarabt, he's agreeing with

0:28:500:28:54

Nicky Morgan. It is a very unusual

morning.

You're all in the same

0:28:540:28:59

side. The difference is the

Conservatives have ruled out a

0:28:590:29:03

customs union, and we are saying

that a customs union is vital, not

0:29:030:29:06

least that we can give real

assurances that the Good Friday

0:29:060:29:10

Agreement and our treaty obligations

in the Good Friday Agreement are not

0:29:100:29:14

torn up. We do not want to lose the

advantage is that we have seen of 20

0:29:140:29:18

years of peace between Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

0:29:180:29:23

If the EU says, you can remain in a

customs union but you do not get a

0:29:230:29:26

large say in future trade deals with

countries outside of the EU and you

0:29:260:29:30

just have to accept what is

negotiated by the EU 27, would you

0:29:300:29:34

still want to be in that customs

union?

We would have to look at that

0:29:340:29:39

carefully. We want to be a rule

maker

0:29:390:29:46

maker and not a real taker. It is

hard to do that if you stay in a

0:29:460:29:50

customs union. Unless you have a new

arrangement whereby the United

0:29:500:29:52

Kingdom sits at the table when those

trade deals are being made. That is

0:29:520:29:55

the new arrangement that we seek to

make. We believe we would be in a

0:29:550:29:59

better position to make those

arrangements with the European Union

0:29:590:30:02

because we have approached the

Brexit negotiations in an entirely

0:30:020:30:06

different manner. We have said what

we would like to see in terms of

0:30:060:30:11

transitional arrangements, the

government subsequently followed on

0:30:110:30:13

a number of those issues, but all

along we have said that we want to

0:30:130:30:18

maintain the benefits of tariff free

custom free trade, and that is

0:30:180:30:22

absolutely crucial, not least for

the Northern Ireland issue.

One of

0:30:220:30:26

the things the Labour Party was

looking forward to have to Brexit,

0:30:260:30:31

and that Jeremy Corbyn has stressed,

was the freedom from state aid

0:30:310:30:35

rules, where the EU stops the UK

Government from giving financial

0:30:350:30:39

assistance to any particular sector

of industry. Theresa May spoke about

0:30:390:30:44

that on Friday and said it would be

necessary to sign up to the

0:30:440:30:47

directives on state aid and

procurement rules, to keep those EU

0:30:470:30:51

rules. Do you accept that will have

to happen?

0:30:510:30:58

No, and we have a different view

anyway. When it came to our

0:30:580:31:04

arguments the Government should step

in to assist the steel industry in

0:31:040:31:08

Britain, the Government used these

fallacies about state aid rules to

0:31:080:31:12

excuse themselves for not giving

adequate support to that industry.

0:31:120:31:16

We didn't believe in the

interpretation the Government made

0:31:160:31:19

because other European countries

have got round the so-called state

0:31:190:31:23

aid rules. We have said as part of

our negotiations, that is a red line

0:31:230:31:29

for us. We would want to make sure

we could facilitate state aid in a

0:31:290:31:36

number of areas where Labour Party

policies have been clearer about

0:31:360:31:39

supporting our industries.

If that

is a red line, is it more important

0:31:390:31:42

staying in the customs union, if you

have to make the choice? The EU

0:31:420:31:47

could say no customs union if you

insist on state aid.

We believe we

0:31:470:31:56

could get a bespoke arrangement for

a new customs relationship, a new

0:31:560:32:01

customs union.

I think there's a

name for that, isn't it called

0:32:010:32:06

cherry picking?

No because we

believe this is in the interests of

0:32:060:32:10

the UK and in the interests of the

European Union. 44% of our trade is

0:32:100:32:15

with the European Union, 53% of the

EU's trade is with the UK so it is

0:32:150:32:21

in both our interests that we sort

this out and get the best deal not

0:32:210:32:29

for the European Union but for

Britain outside of the European

0:32:290:32:32

Union.

You seem to be saying the

Tory government are asking for the

0:32:320:32:35

impossible in their negotiations and

won't get what they are looking for

0:32:350:32:39

but somehow if there was a Labour

government negotiating this deal,

0:32:390:32:43

all doors would open and you would

be able to select which bit of the

0:32:430:32:47

customs union you did and didn't

like and could have a bespoke deal

0:32:470:32:50

that is not available for some

reason to Theresa May.

They ruled

0:32:500:32:56

out a customs union, I think that is

a bad decision because I believe a

0:32:560:33:02

customs union, negotiated between

the UK and the European Union 27 is

0:33:020:33:07

in the best interests of sorting out

customs free tariff-free trade going

0:33:070:33:12

forward but also sorting out the

issue of the border between Ireland,

0:33:120:33:16

north and south.

Labour set out six

tests as to whether they would vote

0:33:160:33:22

for the Brexit deal in the end and

one of those was that it had to

0:33:220:33:26

deliver the same benefits we get

from being in the single market and

0:33:260:33:31

customs union. That was a quote from

David Davis, but Theresa May has

0:33:310:33:35

been clear we are not going to get

the same benefits. Does this mean

0:33:350:33:41

Labour under no circumstances will

be able to vote for any Brexit deal

0:33:410:33:46

that's been negotiated?

Let's see

what Brexit deal comes back before

0:33:460:33:50

we have a hypothetical vote on this.

You don't think there's any

0:33:500:33:54

circumstances in which it could come

back...

I believe if the Government

0:33:540:33:59

wanted to enter into negotiations to

do that, they could do that. The

0:33:590:34:03

fact the Prime Minister has conceded

is probably because they have ruled

0:34:030:34:07

out a customs union. We believe that

is the wrong decision, we believe

0:34:070:34:12

that arrangement is possible, but

let's see what the Government comes

0:34:120:34:16

back with and then we will decide

how we vote in parliament.

0:34:160:34:21

Parliament has got a meaningful vote

and that was something that had to

0:34:210:34:25

be secured through the parliamentary

processes. The Government weren't

0:34:250:34:30

going to give us that right and I

think it is right it is ultimately

0:34:300:34:35

Parliament that decides.

Thank you.

0:34:350:34:37

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:34:370:34:40

Still to come...

0:34:400:34:41

As the government promises to cut

red tape to get more houses built,

0:34:410:34:44

we'll ask the Cabinet Office

minister David Lidington

0:34:440:34:46

whether they're finally prepared

to take on the nimbys.

0:34:460:34:48

First though, it's

time for the Sunday Politics

0:34:480:34:50

where you are.

0:34:500:34:53

Hello and welcome to

the London part of the show.

0:35:010:35:03

I'm Jo Coburn.

0:35:030:35:04

With me for the duration

today, Andy Slaughter,

0:35:040:35:06

Labour MP for Hammersmith,

and Chris Philp, Conservative

0:35:060:35:08

MP for Croydon South.

0:35:080:35:09

Welcome to both of you.

0:35:090:35:11

I want to start with

the latest on Brexit.

0:35:110:35:14

On Friday, the Prime Minister

made her latest keynote

0:35:140:35:18

speech on leaving the EU,

whilst the Labour leader,

0:35:180:35:20

Jeremy Corbyn, earlier in the week

announced Labour's new position

0:35:200:35:22

on the Customs Union.

0:35:220:35:25

First of all though, Chris Philp,

the Prime Minister says

0:35:250:35:27

there will be less access

to the single market

0:35:270:35:29

than we had before.

0:35:290:35:30

Is that a good thing for business?

0:35:300:35:34

I think it's a realistic

assessment of where we are,

0:35:340:35:36

given we are leaving

the European Union.

0:35:360:35:38

I thought the speech was very

good, it was balanced.

0:35:380:35:40

It recognised that we couldn't

continue having the same level

0:35:400:35:45

of access as now because if

we did we effectively

0:35:450:35:48

wouldn't be leaving.

0:35:480:35:53

Right, so why did the Brexit

Secretary say we will have

0:35:530:35:56

the exact same benefits of leaving

the EU as we had when we were

0:35:560:35:59

in the single market?

0:35:590:36:01

I think what the Brexit Secretary

meant and what the Prime Minister

0:36:010:36:03

said in her speech last week

was that we are going to have a deep

0:36:030:36:07

and special trade relationship.

0:36:070:36:08

We are going to be signing up

to broadly common standards.

0:36:080:36:11

That's a critical thing to say

because it means we can trade freely

0:36:110:36:14

if we accept our regulatory

standards are going to be broadly

0:36:140:36:17

equivalent of the European Union's.

0:36:170:36:18

Broadly equivalent but not as high.

0:36:180:36:19

No, certainly not as high.

0:36:190:36:20

In fact she said in some areas

like workers' rights,

0:36:200:36:23

environmental standards,

she would expect UK standards to be

0:36:230:36:25

even higher than European standards

as they currently are.

0:36:250:36:27

But the point is they won't be

identical, they're going

0:36:270:36:29

to be broadly equivalent

with an independent body,

0:36:290:36:31

not the ECJ, deciding

whether they are equivalent or not.

0:36:310:36:34

And that means we can

continue to trade freely

0:36:340:36:36

and that's very important.

0:36:360:36:37

I mean it was a reality check

for Brexiteers, wasn't it?

0:36:370:36:40

The ECJ, the European Court

of Justice, will still arbitrate

0:36:400:36:42

over certain things,

we will still be signed up to some

0:36:420:36:45

of the key European agencies.

0:36:450:36:46

It was a realistic approach,

as you said, because the UK

0:36:460:36:49

Government has realised they can't

get what they want.

0:36:490:36:51

I don't think the European Court

of Justice will be arbitrating.

0:36:510:36:53

I think its judgments will have some

influence in some of the bodies

0:36:530:36:56

that we are still part of.

0:36:560:36:58

It was a balanced and realistic

speech that lays the foundations

0:36:580:37:01

for a really good free trade deal

and I'm delighted she made it.

0:37:010:37:04

And do you accept that?

0:37:040:37:05

It's just chaotic, isn't it?

0:37:050:37:06

In what way?

0:37:060:37:07

We are not that much further forward

because Theresa May can't

0:37:070:37:10

commit herself absolutely

because she will...

0:37:100:37:11

One faction in her party,

either the pro-Brexit extremists

0:37:110:37:15

or the Remainers will suddenly say

that's it, so she has

0:37:150:37:17

to keep the show going.

0:37:170:37:25

But she'll say on the one hand

we are not going to sign up to any

0:37:260:37:30

of those terrible things

like the customs union

0:37:300:37:32

and single market,

0:37:320:37:33

but on the other hand I want us

to have the best possible

0:37:330:37:36

deal that's going.

0:37:360:37:37

What has Labour promised

your constituents?

0:37:370:37:38

I mean will your constituents say

that Labour has a better policy

0:37:380:37:41

in terms of its promises

of the customs union?

0:37:410:37:43

Absolutely.

0:37:430:37:44

My constituents I think know that,

which is probably why my majority

0:37:440:37:48

trebled at the last election.

0:37:480:37:49

But they don't want to be part

of the single market, do they?

0:37:490:37:52

Jeremy moved the party

significantly, Jeremy's speech

0:37:520:37:54

was significant last week because it

committed us to the customs union.

0:37:540:37:57

Out of the customs union.

0:37:570:37:58

There's very little

difference between those two.

0:37:580:38:03

What he says is that we want

to replicate the customs union

0:38:030:38:06

and as far as possible the single

market as well.

0:38:060:38:08

Those are significant moves

in the direction of travel,

0:38:080:38:11

which the party is going on.

0:38:110:38:14

Do you think Jeremy Corbyn will sign

up to a single market membership?

0:38:140:38:17

I think it's possible

that we will move further as time

0:38:170:38:21

goes on but the indications he has

given so far we want to maintain

0:38:210:38:25

the advantages that we had

as members of the EU.

0:38:250:38:27

But you can't have

your cake and eat it.

0:38:270:38:29

You can't both retain

all of the advantages and also

0:38:290:38:32

at the same time leave.

0:38:320:38:33

You must feel a bit sore

because he fired you,

0:38:330:38:35

didn't he, about a year ago.

0:38:350:38:37

You were sacked?

0:38:370:38:38

For advocating customs

union membership.

0:38:380:38:39

I don't feel sore about it,

I'm delighted that we are now

0:38:390:38:42

advocating that policy.

0:38:420:38:43

Yes, but on the basis that

you wanted single market membership

0:38:430:38:45

and he said you can no longer be

part of the team.

0:38:450:38:48

The job that I think Keir Starmer

and Jeremy are doing

0:38:480:38:51

is in recognising that

if we want to be a successful

0:38:510:38:54

trading country, we are going

to have to stay on the closest

0:38:540:38:56

possible terms with the EU

and they are making

0:38:560:38:59

pragmatic decisions.

0:38:590:39:00

What you get with Theresa May

is just bones thrown

0:39:000:39:03

to these lunatic fringe,

the Rees-Moggites and so forth,

0:39:030:39:06

just to say we are still going to be

a hard Brexit, anti-European party

0:39:060:39:09

while admitting that...

0:39:090:39:11

Let's talk about the City

of London because the City

0:39:110:39:14

of London financial services,

an important part of the economy,

0:39:140:39:17

and Theresa May said we are not

looking for passporting

0:39:170:39:19

because we understand this

is intrinsic to the single market

0:39:190:39:23

of which we would no

longer be a member.

0:39:230:39:25

It would also require us to be

subject to a single rule book over

0:39:250:39:29

which we would have no say.

0:39:290:39:30

That's going to be very

damaging, isn't it?

0:39:300:39:32

But if you read the very next

paragraph in the speech,

0:39:320:39:35

which I'm sure we both have,

she goes on to say that we

0:39:350:39:38

would commit to having

regulatory standards that

0:39:380:39:39

were of equivalent levels.

0:39:390:39:40

If that's acceptable to the EU.

0:39:400:39:48

I don't see why it wouldn't be

because they book over

0:39:490:39:51

half their debt and equity issuance

in London so they really would be

0:39:510:39:54

cutting off their nose

to spite their faces.

0:39:540:39:56

How would that be the same

as passporting, which the City

0:39:560:39:59

of London has now?

0:39:590:40:00

It would give us financial services

access providing that an independent

0:40:000:40:03

body found that our regulatory

standards were of a equivalent

0:40:030:40:05

standard broadly to the Europeans,

which we would expect them to be,

0:40:050:40:08

because in many ways our regulatory

standards are higher.

0:40:080:40:10

So that is passporting, isn't it?

0:40:100:40:11

It gives you market access

without having to be part

0:40:110:40:14

of the single market and signing up

to the last dot and comma

0:40:140:40:17

of every single last rule.

0:40:170:40:18

But I must say, I think

Andy's characterisation

0:40:180:40:20

a moment ago of the speech,

of sort of throwing bones to Jacob,

0:40:200:40:23

and by the way I don't

think he eats bones.

0:40:230:40:26

Jacob Rees-Mogg, this is.

0:40:260:40:27

Was rather unfair because I thought

this speech, if you read it

0:40:270:40:30

carefully, is very realistic and it

recognises where we need to make

0:40:300:40:32

concessions and it recognises

where the European Union does.

0:40:320:40:35

I think it was actually very

realistic and balanced,

0:40:350:40:37

and I think will provide

the foundations for a sensible

0:40:370:40:39

free-trade deal that

works for them and us.

0:40:390:40:41

Chris, you have to say that.

0:40:410:40:43

You were a Remainer and I suspect

you recognise this is all nonsense.

0:40:430:40:46

What we have done, if we have

rejected the advantages we had

0:40:460:40:49

of being in the EU and now

we are trying to sign up

0:40:490:40:52

to second-best versions of them...

0:40:520:40:53

But people voted to leave,

Andy Slaughter, didn't they,

0:40:530:40:55

and the point is one

of your colleagues, Frank Field,

0:40:550:40:57

said people like you have ratted

and are ratting on Labour leaders.

0:40:570:41:01

said people like you have ratted

and are ratting on Labour leavers.

0:41:010:41:03

Frank Field is one of half a dozen

Labour MPs who doesn't agree

0:41:030:41:06

with the direction of travel

the Labour Party has.

0:41:060:41:09

The Labour Party is actually very

united on this issue.

0:41:090:41:11

Theresa May has two problems.

0:41:110:41:12

One is how does she square leaving

the EU with the economic

0:41:120:41:15

success of the country,

but she's got that additional

0:41:150:41:19

problem that all Tory leaders have

had back to John Major which is how

0:41:190:41:25

do we reconcile the irreconcilable

Ken Clarke and Rees-Mogg?

0:41:250:41:28

Let's leave it there.

0:41:280:41:29

Westminster is regarded as the jewel

in the crown of local

0:41:290:41:32

government in London.

0:41:320:41:32

The Conservatives have been in power

there for as long as the City

0:41:320:41:35

of Westminster has existed

in its current form.

0:41:350:41:37

The opposition claim

the council is out of touch

0:41:370:41:40

and in hock to the privileged,

but they're now hitting back

0:41:400:41:42

with a policy to raise

money from the rich.

0:41:420:41:44

Will that be enough to save them

from the predicted Labour

0:41:440:41:47

upsurge in inner London?

0:41:470:41:48

Tanjil Rashid reports.

0:41:480:41:52

Westminster has some pretty

well-to-do residents.

0:41:520:41:54

The Queen, for one.

0:41:540:41:55

But it's not all swans

and stucco fronted terraces.

0:41:550:41:59

It has the highest number of rough

sleepers in the country,

0:41:590:42:02

one of whom recently died

yards from Parliament.

0:42:020:42:05

The city of Westminster has long

been divided with a diverse

0:42:050:42:08

population and a large number

of council estates.

0:42:080:42:13

The north tends to vote Labour and

returns the Labour MP to Parliament.

0:42:130:42:18

But then you have the rather more

affluent Tory leaning South

0:42:180:42:21

and the council as a whole has been

Conservative run since 1964.

0:42:210:42:28

If Labour want to take control here,

as some polling indicates may

0:42:280:42:31

happen, they need to win

in places like this.

0:42:310:42:34

Both the election results last year

but also the polling done since then

0:42:340:42:37

shows a really dramatic shift

to Labour, particularly

0:42:370:42:39

in inner London.

0:42:390:42:43

So the last bit of polling done show

a 13-point swing to Labour in inner

0:42:430:42:46

London and that is of the scale that

will enable Labour potentially

0:42:460:42:50

to take councils like

Wandsworth and Westminster.

0:42:500:42:54

If they manage to crack Westminster,

something seismic is happening

0:42:540:42:57

in British politics.

0:42:570:43:03

The Labour team are hoping

to capitalise on local

0:43:030:43:05

opposition to Brexit.

0:43:050:43:06

They are fielding an EU

citizen as a candidate.

0:43:060:43:10

Well, I meet other EU nationals

all the time when I'm campaigning

0:43:100:43:13

and you see that they are very,

very concerned about Brexit.

0:43:130:43:19

I think there's also

the anger over Grenfell,

0:43:190:43:21

which is round the corner from here.

0:43:210:43:25

There are people who previously

voted Conservative who are fed up

0:43:250:43:28

with Brexit, fed up with the hard

right Tory agenda nationally

0:43:280:43:31

and want to see something

at a local level that

0:43:310:43:34

represents their interests

more directly.

0:43:340:43:36

In order to win, they do need

to double the number

0:43:360:43:39

of councillors they have.

0:43:390:43:40

Labour currently have

15 to the Tories' 45.

0:43:400:43:43

The swing that's been projected

would be enough but the Conservative

0:43:430:43:45

leader of the council

believes her party

0:43:450:43:47

will weather the storm.

0:43:470:43:51

On the doorstep, we are being told

that they are voting

0:43:510:43:54

Conservative in Westminster.

0:43:540:43:55

They may vote for Labour

in the national elections

0:43:550:43:57

but many of them tell us in local

elections they vote for us.

0:43:570:44:01

And she has an eye-catching

policy to raise funds

0:44:010:44:03

from Westminster's wealthy.

0:44:030:44:07

Over the last couple of years,

wealthier residents have

0:44:070:44:09

asked us consistently,

why don't you put up

0:44:090:44:11

the council tax?

0:44:110:44:15

So this new voluntary

contribution asks those in

0:44:150:44:17

band H to pay a bit more,

consider paying a bit more.

0:44:170:44:21

Their council tax bill

for next year will be £833.

0:44:210:44:23

We are suggesting another £833.

0:44:230:44:27

Some of those targeted by the scheme

don't think it's a reliable way

0:44:270:44:30

to fund the council.

0:44:300:44:32

The voluntary contribution,

whilst very worthwhile,

0:44:320:44:37

doesn't necessarily give the council

any surety as to how much

0:44:370:44:39

money they will have.

0:44:390:44:44

It relies on goodwill

and being reliant on goodwill

0:44:440:44:46

is a little bit like a coconut shy

at the fairground.

0:44:460:44:51

You don't know whether you are going

to win that coconut or you're

0:44:510:44:54

not going to win it.

0:44:540:45:02

D'Hoore is

0:45:030:45:04

The scheme will be confirmed

by the council this week,

0:45:040:45:07

The scheme will be confirmed

by the council

0:45:120:45:14

is this week,

0:45:140:45:15

and come the election in May,

we will see whether or not

0:45:150:45:18

it is enough for Westminster to buck

the trend and remain in Tory hands.

0:45:180:45:21

That was Tanjil Rashid reporting.

0:45:210:45:22

The policy wonks there are saying

there is a 13% inner

0:45:220:45:26

London swing to Labour.

0:45:260:45:26

Were we to see that,

that would be enough

0:45:260:45:28

for Labour to take Westminster

for the first time.

0:45:280:45:30

How worried are you?

0:45:300:45:31

I think we have all seen how

accurate opinion polls

0:45:310:45:34

are the last election,

and at the referendum.

0:45:340:45:36

So you do not believe them?

0:45:360:45:37

Let's wait until the election

actually happens but I think

0:45:370:45:39

Westminster City Council

have an incredibly strong story.

0:45:390:45:42

They charge the lowest band D

council tax in the country,

0:45:420:45:44

it is less than half their immediate

neighbour, Labour-controlled

0:45:440:45:46

Camden, and yet their

services are excellent.

0:45:460:45:48

So why are Labour doing so well?

0:45:480:45:50

We do not know they

are doing so well.

0:45:500:45:52

They collect the bins twice

a week in Westminster.

0:45:520:45:54

In Croydon, my borough, Labour run,

bin collections have been cut.

0:45:540:45:56

They have the highest social

mobility in the country,

0:45:560:45:59

their children's services are rated

outstanding by Ofsted,

0:45:590:46:01

whereas in Croydon, the Labour

run borough I am from,

0:46:010:46:03

the children's services have been

found to be dangerous.

0:46:030:46:05

You're giving me a list

of what you see as the achievements

0:46:050:46:08

of the council but we've just heard

there, you may say, we cannot

0:46:080:46:11

believe the polls but look

what happened in the general

0:46:110:46:14

election, in terms of Jeremy Corbyn

and the Labour Party doing better

0:46:140:46:16

than people thought.

0:46:160:46:17

So I say to you again,

the last time this was a marginal

0:46:170:46:21

area, you have to go back

to Shirley Porter and the homes

0:46:210:46:23

for votes scandal.

0:46:230:46:25

So what is happening?

0:46:250:46:25

Andy Slaughter alluded to it.

0:46:250:46:27

Clearly in the general election,

a national election,

0:46:270:46:29

there were significant challenges

for the Conservatives,

0:46:290:46:30

especially in inner London but this

is a local election,

0:46:300:46:34

it is about local issues,

and Westminster Council,

0:46:340:46:36

in common with Wandsworth and other

Conservative councils,

0:46:360:46:39

do a fantastic job delivering

excellent services for low tax,

0:46:390:46:42

unlike Labour run councils,

like Croydon, where I am from,

0:46:420:46:44

who do a terrible job,

in things like children's services

0:46:440:46:46

and collecting rubbish

while charging exorbitantly

0:46:460:46:48

high council tax.

0:46:480:46:49

There would still have

to be an enormous swing.

0:46:490:46:52

It may be great publicity to say

that Labour may take the scalp

0:46:520:46:55

of a council that you have never

held in recent time,

0:46:550:46:58

but it is actually unrealistic?

0:46:580:47:00

I note the desperation

in Chris's voice.

0:47:000:47:04

And the fact that Labour is trying

to win Westminster very seriously,

0:47:040:47:07

which it is, and it has great

representation, a fantastic MP

0:47:070:47:11

in Karen Buck, great opposition

there, but you're right,

0:47:110:47:15

it is a very big ask,

because you're asking them to go

0:47:150:47:18

from having a quarter of the seats

to winning, but there is a chance,

0:47:180:47:21

but it will take a lot of work

and a big turnout from voters,

0:47:210:47:26

like the EU voters,

we heard from them,

0:47:260:47:27

but also from people who...

0:47:270:47:29

I'm sorry, but Chris absolutely gets

it wrong about Westminster.

0:47:290:47:33

It is a terrible council,

it has the sixth highest child

0:47:330:47:36

poverty in the country.

0:47:360:47:38

People think it is a wealthy area,

it is not, and yet they have taken

0:47:380:47:42

£10 million in the last two years

out of children's services.

0:47:420:47:44

But as you say, still unrealistic

for Labour to actually win it.

0:47:440:47:47

Could you sit here today and say,

we are going to win that?

0:47:470:47:51

You are very stupid to predict

the results of elections.

0:47:510:47:54

People were not predicting that

Labour would take Hammersmith three

0:47:540:47:56

years ago and we did.

0:47:560:47:58

We're the only council since then

to actually cut council tax

0:47:580:48:01

during that time in London.

0:48:010:48:03

I hope we will win again

on our record, but the Tory record

0:48:030:48:06

in Westminster is terrible,

particularly on housing,

0:48:060:48:08

one of the worst achieving councils

in terms of providing affordable

0:48:080:48:11

housing in London.

0:48:110:48:14

How do you judge this policy

from the leader of the council

0:48:140:48:17

who is asking the richest residents

to pitch in with a voluntary tax?

0:48:170:48:20

Do you support that?

0:48:200:48:23

This is more desperate,

amateur stuff.

0:48:230:48:25

You cannot run government

on the basis of charity.

0:48:250:48:30

The real crisis in local government

is because every council had

0:48:300:48:33

at least a third of its budget cut

by the cuts in central government.

0:48:330:48:38

During the austerity period,

central government rather cowardly

0:48:380:48:40

chose to cut local government rather

than cutting some

0:48:400:48:42

of its own services.

0:48:420:48:43

Is this just a gimmick?

0:48:430:48:46

Would you like your richest

constituents to pay around £850

0:48:460:48:49

a year more, donated

to council coffers?

0:48:490:48:52

I am always in favour

of trying new things.

0:48:520:48:54

You have got to be flexibly minded.

0:48:540:48:56

That is a no.

0:48:560:48:57

Let's give it a try.

0:48:570:48:59

I would be perfectly happy

for Croydon Council to do that.

0:48:590:49:03

The Conservatives on Croydon Council

have proposed exactly this measure

0:49:030:49:05

but take Westminster as an example.

0:49:050:49:10

On housing, which Andrew mentioned,

we've got 415 homeless places,

0:49:100:49:13

overnight shelter places

in Westminster, the

0:49:130:49:15

highest in the country.

0:49:150:49:16

There are seven teams of people

going around every night

0:49:160:49:19

in Westminster actively trying

to help homeless people so I think

0:49:190:49:22

Westminster has a proud record

of delivering great services for low

0:49:220:49:24

council tax and that is why

they deserve to get re-elected

0:49:240:49:27

because that is what these

elections are about.

0:49:270:49:29

Why not just put up council tax?

0:49:290:49:32

This system which Andy Slaughter

has said is a gimmick,

0:49:320:49:37

really, it is a charity,

a charitable donation,

0:49:370:49:41

rather than setting up a new system,

why not put up council tax,

0:49:410:49:44

why don't you advise

Westminster to do that?

0:49:440:49:46

It is up to Westminster to set

their own level of council tax.

0:49:460:49:49

Would that be better?

0:49:490:49:50

If they felt they absolutely needed

that money to run their services,

0:49:500:49:53

I am sure they would put

their council tax up,

0:49:530:49:55

but this is a voluntary measure

to provide additional services

0:49:550:49:57

and people can choose

whether to pay it.

0:49:570:49:59

A good idea for

the rich to pitch in?

0:49:590:50:01

Look, it is a joke.

0:50:010:50:03

You cannot run government

on the charity of individuals.

0:50:030:50:05

Street homelessness has gone up 140%

since the Tories got

0:50:050:50:07

back into government.

0:50:070:50:13

There are 2,500 families

in temporary accommodation

0:50:130:50:14

in Westminster.

0:50:140:50:16

It is a shambles and this

sort of gimmick is not

0:50:160:50:18

going to convince anybody.

0:50:180:50:19

Let's move on.

0:50:190:50:21

This week the Labour MP

for Bermondsey and Old Southwark,

0:50:210:50:23

Neil Coyle, wrote to EU citizens

in his constituency.

0:50:230:50:25

He urged them to regard the upcoming

local elections as a referendum

0:50:250:50:28

on the Prime Minister's handling

of the Brexit negotiations

0:50:280:50:30

and to vote for Labour accordingly.

0:50:300:50:31

Sebastien Ash has more.

0:50:310:50:37

Over one million EU citizens

in London are eligible to vote

0:50:370:50:42

in local council

elections on May the 3rd.

0:50:420:50:45

London's mayor, Sadiq Khan,

has called on them to,

0:50:450:50:47

send the Tory government the message

that we do not want their chaotic,

0:50:470:50:50

extreme hard-Brexit approach.

0:50:500:50:51

And in a letter targeted at EU

citizens in his constituency,

0:50:510:50:54

Labour MP for Bermondsey

and Old Southwark, Neil Coyle,

0:50:540:50:56

has said, as someone

from an EU member state,

0:50:560:50:58

you have to vote in

the local elections.

0:50:580:51:01

This will be a major chance to send

Theresa May's government a clear

0:51:010:51:04

message about her disastrous Brexit

policy and how it affects

0:51:040:51:06

you and our whole community.

0:51:060:51:09

The party's commitment this week

to staying in a customs union

0:51:090:51:12

with the EU could win votes

in the capital, and with significant

0:51:120:51:16

EU populations in swing councils

like Wandsworth and Barnet,

0:51:160:51:22

their votes could make

all the difference, but the EU

0:51:220:51:30

citizens rights group

The3million have said,

0:51:300:51:32

the jury is out on Labour

because they supported Article 50.

0:51:320:51:35

Joining me now, Costanza de Toma,

from the organisation The3million,

0:51:350:51:37

which lobbies on behalf

of EU citizens rights.

0:51:370:51:39

You say Labour cannot be trusted,

so who are you advocating EU

0:51:390:51:42

citizens should vote for?

0:51:420:51:43

Well, the key thing to say is

I think we would like EU nationals

0:51:430:51:46

to vote first and foremost.

0:51:460:51:50

We're not telling anybody

who to vote for, but we are talking

0:51:500:51:53

to our members, to our fellow EU

nationals, to be active citizens,

0:51:530:51:59

so to keep councillors accountable,

to make them accountable to us,

0:51:590:52:02

as they would to any

other constituents.

0:52:020:52:05

So we are equipping them

with questions to ask

0:52:050:52:07

when they are being canvassed

at their doorstep.

0:52:070:52:15

Do you get a sense that this

will be a referendum

0:52:300:52:32

on Brexit, these elections?

0:52:320:52:33

Well, of course it will,

but it is not about whether you're

0:52:330:52:36

for or against Brexit.

0:52:360:52:37

The3million, for instance,

does not itself take

0:52:370:52:38

a position on Brexit.

0:52:380:52:40

We are here to safeguard

citizens rights.

0:52:400:52:41

If there is a Tory run council that

will provide excellent services,

0:52:410:52:44

information services,

outreach, and to register

0:52:440:52:46

all EU nationals, then

why not support that?

0:52:460:52:47

What is the mood music coming back

from the members you have spoken to?

0:52:470:52:51

Well, there is a certain level

of distrust in the current

0:52:510:52:53

government, I have to say.

0:52:530:52:55

But equally, I think we have

heard a lot of noise,

0:52:550:52:57

we have heard lots of reassurances,

but they have been

0:52:570:53:00

empty reassurances.

0:53:000:53:05

What we need is actions, and we need

actions at the local level.

0:53:050:53:08

We're talking about local

elections and luckily

0:53:080:53:09

we have a vote at the local level.

0:53:090:53:15

What is this distrust based

on in terms of EU citizens' rights

0:53:150:53:20

because the government and no doubt

Chris Philp would say that those

0:53:200:53:23

rights are going to be guaranteed,

and even during the implementation

0:53:230:53:25

and transition period,

that now they will have

0:53:250:53:27

indefinite leave to remain,

although other rights may change?

0:53:270:53:29

Well, exactly.

0:53:290:53:30

The devil is in the detail.

0:53:300:53:33

We will not be keeping the same

rights that we have now.

0:53:330:53:35

And what the government has proposed

is a lesser immigration

0:53:350:53:38

status with fewer rights.

0:53:380:53:42

She's just being realistic,

Costanza, saying that there

0:53:420:53:46

is a level of mistrust

in the government and that is hardly

0:53:460:53:49

surprising based on past rhetoric?

0:53:490:53:50

Let's start with the local question.

0:53:500:53:52

She asked about what local

councils are doing.

0:53:520:53:53

Westminster City Council,

that we were just discussing,

0:53:530:53:56

are running an outreach event

tomorrow, Monday, which EU nationals

0:53:560:53:58

are invited to where they can

have all of their rights

0:53:580:54:01

and the processes explained.

0:54:010:54:02

They are already doing

in Westminster, a Conservative

0:54:020:54:04

controlled council, an enormous

programme of outreach,

0:54:040:54:06

exactly as you have just requested.

0:54:060:54:07

What about the level of trust?

0:54:070:54:11

I hope that will be recognised.

0:54:110:54:13

As far as the wider national

rights are concerned,

0:54:130:54:16

at the stage one agreement

on the 8th of December,

0:54:160:54:19

the Prime Minister and

the European Union made it clear

0:54:190:54:21

that European citizens

here would have the right to stay,

0:54:210:54:25

obviously, and after five years

living here would be able to get

0:54:250:54:28

settled status and after ten years

become full citizens.

0:54:280:54:31

Those people would also

have the right to bring over

0:54:310:54:34

close family members,

so that is a generous offer

0:54:340:54:36

which shows that we really do want

European Union citizens to stay

0:54:360:54:39

here and continue making

the phenomenal contribution

0:54:390:54:41

they have been making for the last

ten, 20 or 30 years.

0:54:410:54:45

Does that convince you?

0:54:450:54:46

It is in black and white,

in the agreement.

0:54:460:54:50

I am afraid it does not.

0:54:500:54:52

It is less than what we have

now, and it is not in

0:54:520:54:55

black and white yet.

0:54:550:54:56

The logic of your argument

is that your members are more

0:54:560:54:59

likely to vote for Labour,

as many other Londoners?

0:54:590:55:01

No, I would not say so.

0:55:010:55:04

We have not heard reassurances

from Labour either.

0:55:040:55:08

There have been very unfortunate

votes on our rights in the Commons

0:55:080:55:11

and Labour have not supported

citizens' rights, and to be honest,

0:55:110:55:14

remaining in a customs union

would make no difference

0:55:140:55:16

to freedom of movement.

0:55:160:55:20

That is the point.

0:55:200:55:22

Labour cannot be trusted

on this issue either,

0:55:220:55:24

because they have been very opaque.

0:55:240:55:28

There has been a move in terms

of saying we would be part

0:55:280:55:32

of a customs union if Labour

was the government but

0:55:320:55:34

in every other sense,

you voted to leave the EU?

0:55:340:55:36

I think The3million are doing a very

good job and it is right to be

0:55:360:55:40

evenhanded and encourage people

to vote, that is the

0:55:400:55:42

first important thing.

0:55:420:55:44

Labour are not doing any more for EU

citizens than the Tories?

0:55:440:55:48

Absolutely not and this is the thing

that most animates me

0:55:480:55:50

about the whole Brexit debate,

more than one in five

0:55:500:55:52

of my voters is an EU citizen.

0:55:520:55:55

I speak to many of them every

week, knocking on doors.

0:55:550:55:59

They are very, very upset,

traumatised I would say,

0:55:590:56:03

about the fact they're being treated

as second-class citizens, and they

0:56:030:56:05

feel they do not have a future.

0:56:050:56:07

Give me examples of how they feel

like they are treated

0:56:070:56:10

like second-class citizens?

0:56:100:56:11

Well, what we have

just talked about.

0:56:110:56:13

Settled status is not the same

as the rights they have now.

0:56:130:56:15

You're talking about

the transition period?

0:56:150:56:17

People who arrive after March 2019?

0:56:170:56:18

No, settled status.

0:56:180:56:22

This is part of the confusion.

0:56:220:56:24

There are going to be at least five

different types of rights you have.

0:56:240:56:28

You might be waiting

to acquire settled status,

0:56:280:56:29

have settled status.

0:56:290:56:30

In the transition period,

we now find out, contrary

0:56:300:56:32

to what Theresa May led us

to believe, you will not

0:56:320:56:35

have the right to settled status,

you will have the right

0:56:350:56:38

to indefinite leave

to remain after a period.

0:56:380:56:40

I barely understand this.

0:56:400:56:41

Most of the people I am talking

to do not understand it and they're

0:56:410:56:44

being treated in an appalling way

by this government.

0:56:440:56:46

That is why I think that

people will remember that

0:56:460:56:49

when they go and vote in May

because this is not...

0:56:490:56:51

Can you imagine treating

any other national group

0:56:510:56:53

or ethnic group like this?

0:56:530:56:56

Are you on a sticky wicket

in London, which is seen as a Remain

0:56:560:56:59

city, on the basis of what Costanza

has said and listening

0:56:590:57:02

to Andy Slaughter, this

is going to be extremely difficult

0:57:020:57:04

in these local elections?

0:57:040:57:06

We're not on a sticky wicket.

0:57:060:57:08

Andy and we saw the letter

from Neil Coyle, they are attempting

0:57:080:57:11

to scaremonger to win votes

at the May election

0:57:110:57:13

but the truth is European Union

citizens are welcome here.

0:57:130:57:15

We want them to stay.

0:57:150:57:23

Empty words.

0:57:250:57:27

Let me finish.

0:57:270:57:28

There is a very clear path

to acquiring not just permanent

0:57:280:57:30

right to stay but full British

citizenship, which we expect

0:57:300:57:33

the vast majority of

European Union citizens to do.

0:57:330:57:35

They're welcome to stay here,

we're making it easy to stay,

0:57:350:57:37

and they will continue making

a massive contribution

0:57:370:57:39

and it is in black and white,

it is in the agreement on the 8th

0:57:390:57:43

December, it is in the draft

withdrawal agreement, 117 pages

0:57:430:57:45

published by the European Commission

last Wednesday, it is there

0:57:450:57:48

in black and white.

0:57:480:57:49

All right.

0:57:490:57:50

We are going to have

to finish it there.

0:57:500:57:52

Costanza, thank you very

much for coming in.

0:57:520:57:54

That's all we've got time

for for the London part of the show.

0:57:540:57:57

My thanks to you for

being my guests today.

0:57:570:57:59

Bye-bye.

0:57:590:58:00

welcome back.

0:58:000:58:01

So how about a bit of

a break from Brexit?

0:58:010:58:03

This morning the government

announced new plans to make it

0:58:030:58:05

easier for more houses to be built,

with rules to cut red

0:58:050:58:08

tape so that there can

be more homes in areas

0:58:080:58:11

where they are needed the most.

0:58:110:58:12

The government says they will take

on what they call the "Nimby

0:58:120:58:15

councils" who don't build enough.

0:58:150:58:16

However, their problem is that a lot

of these councils are Conservative.

0:58:160:58:19

So could we be about to see

a battle between local

0:58:190:58:22

and central government?

0:58:220:58:23

With me now with hopefully

all the answers is Cabinet Office

0:58:230:58:25

Minister David Lidington.

0:58:250:58:27

Thanks very much for coming in.

Good

morning. If you're going to try and

0:58:270:58:32

build more homes in the south-east

of England, which is where the

0:58:320:58:35

demand is highest, these are going

to be your own councillors you're

0:58:350:58:39

taking on over this?

If you talk to

most Conservative councillors they

0:58:390:58:43

will get the need for more homes and

their significant growth in house

0:58:430:58:47

building. Actually, if you talk to

councils in my area you will see

0:58:470:58:53

councils that are getting on in

doing it with one of the fastest new

0:58:530:58:55

house-building rates anywhere in the

country.

Under this government

0:58:550:58:59

house-building rates have fallen

significantly. Fewer new houses a

0:58:590:59:03

year than there were under the

Labour government, 223,000 in 2007,

0:59:030:59:10

217,000, fewer now than word being

built under the last Labour

0:59:100:59:15

government.

The number of new houses

last year was 217,000, the

0:59:150:59:19

second-highest annual house-building

figure in 30 years. That is not a

0:59:190:59:23

record to be ashamed of. We have

also increased considerably the

0:59:230:59:27

spending on affordable homes in the

delivery of affordable homes in

0:59:270:59:30

council homes compared with what the

Labour government achieved. More

0:59:300:59:34

council houses have been built since

2010 than the entire 13 years in the

0:59:340:59:39

Labour government before that.

The

number of affordable homes being

0:59:390:59:42

built is going down.

0:59:420:59:47

built is going down. In 2010 it was

61,000, last year was 40,000.

This

0:59:470:59:50

is exactly why we have put in £9

billion, an extra 2 billion in the

0:59:500:59:54

last year alone, into the affordable

housing programme. What we need to

0:59:540:59:58

do is to get the new homes built.

That takes us to the planning

0:59:581:00:02

announcement that is being made

tomorrow, with a new national

1:00:021:00:06

planning policy framework for public

consultation. Houses and residents'

1:00:061:00:11

groups can feedback their views on

that. When I talk to councils I

1:00:111:00:16

find, and I talk to residents

concerned about new development,

1:00:161:00:20

what they want is to know that there

is going to be the infrastructure,

1:00:201:00:23

there is going to be the public

services to support new housing. I

1:00:231:00:28

find increasingly people get the

need for new housing.

People get the

1:00:281:00:32

need for new housing, they just do

not want it anywhere near them. That

1:00:321:00:37

is where the phrase Nimby comes

from.

I think that is being unfair.

1:00:371:00:42

When I say to

1:00:421:00:48

people, all can your children or

grandchildren afford to get on the

1:00:541:00:56

housing ladder, you see the heads

nodding, even among older residents.

1:00:561:00:58

They get the importance of this,

just as people get the significance

1:00:581:01:02

that we are living independently for

longer. That is great, but we also

1:01:021:01:03

need more accommodation, there are

more households for any given level

1:01:031:01:06

of population than we had in the

past. As well as having the house is

1:01:061:01:10

planned for, so that the locations,

as in the new guard in towns and

1:01:101:01:14

cities programme are being properly

planned for, you also need the

1:01:141:01:19

infrastructure, the transport, the

broadband to support that. That is

1:01:191:01:23

why the housing infrastructure fund

has been set up, so that local

1:01:231:01:27

councils can bid for that to support

unlocking development opportunities.

1:01:271:01:30

The government has said this morning

that Nimbys need to be tackled. But

1:01:301:01:39

the Nimbys and in the Cabinet. You

have said this needs to be done in a

1:01:391:01:42

way that protects the green belt.

The housing minister says every

1:01:421:01:45

effort must be made to avoid

building in the green belt. The

1:01:451:01:50

Prime Minister Minister said that

local authorities may only alter

1:01:501:01:54

green belt boundaries in exceptional

circumstances.

1:01:541:02:01

circumstances.

No, not at all, you

are underestimating the way green

1:02:031:02:07

belt is important. If you come back

to the Chilterns green belt area,

1:02:071:02:13

for people living in London, living

in Luton, High Wycombe, Milton

1:02:131:02:19

Keynes, Watford, these are places

expanding, new houses are being

1:02:191:02:22

built. Having that nearby is

something that is really important

1:02:221:02:28

so we need to plan housing alongside

conservation which is why when the

1:02:281:02:35

planning framework is announced

tomorrow and the Prime Minister

1:02:351:02:37

makes her big speech on housing, we

are also saying this will be

1:02:371:02:42

developed alongside and taking full

account of what Michael Gove and the

1:02:421:02:46

environment Department are doing

with a 25 year plans to improve the

1:02:461:02:50

environment of our country.

Let me

take you back to the speech the

1:02:501:02:54

Prime Minister made on Friday, her

Brexit speech. She made it clear one

1:02:541:02:59

of the hard facts was we weren't

going to get everything we wanted.

1:02:591:03:03

You are as close as you can beat her

thinking on this, what will she

1:03:031:03:08

compromise on?

Tempted as I am, I'm

not going to go into a detailed

1:03:081:03:15

negotiating position. We accept that

what we put forward is ambitious,

1:03:151:03:20

also credible idea for a close

economic partnership with the EU in

1:03:201:03:25

the future. The PM said in the text

of the speech that neither of us

1:03:251:03:29

will end up with everything they

wanted. What we need to do now is

1:03:291:03:35

see the EU's opening position, to

sit down and start to work through

1:03:351:03:39

in detail some of these points about

the law, how you deliver our

1:03:391:03:47

objectives of as frictionless trade

as possible, our economic

1:03:471:03:49

partnership in the future that

allows cross-border spy chains to

1:03:491:03:52

continue in a way that works to our

advantage and that of the EU 27

1:03:521:03:58

countries alike.

The Irish

government don't seem to be happy

1:03:581:04:02

about this, Simon Coveney said this

morning he doesn't then -- think the

1:04:021:04:11

EU will agree to it so we are no

closer to fixing the problem.

Simon

1:04:111:04:18

Coveney and the Taoiseach as well as

others have also the way to solving

1:04:181:04:21

the responsibilities over the Irish

border and avoiding the hard border

1:04:211:04:25

as to do that in the context of an

overall EU UK economic partnership

1:04:251:04:31

for the future, and go back to the

PM's speech on Friday and she set

1:04:311:04:34

out a number of elements of that. A

deal on goods that would mean the

1:04:341:04:41

and the EU recognise each other's

standards so British and European

1:04:411:04:48

goods circulated freely without the

need for border checks or paperwork.

1:04:481:04:53

That's what the Irish said they

don't think the EU will agree to.

I

1:04:531:04:58

think it is in the interests of the

EU to have this arrangement and

1:04:581:05:02

these sorts of detail are what we

need to get into to understand where

1:05:021:05:07

difficulties lie. The Prime Minister

also talks about a customs

1:05:071:05:12

arrangement or partnership with the

EU 27 in the future that would allow

1:05:121:05:16

us to simplify and eliminate some of

these problems. We already have

1:05:161:05:20

agreement on the continuation of the

Common travel area which means free

1:05:201:05:27

movement of people across the

jurisdiction border between the

1:05:271:05:28

island of Ireland and Ireland and

the UK. What the Cabinet are

1:05:281:05:35

committed to, and it was laid out in

the PM's speech, is that we see it

1:05:351:05:40

as essential to ensure there is not

a hard border on the island of

1:05:401:05:44

Ireland, that every aspect of the

Good Friday Agreement, both

1:05:441:05:50

east-west and north-south, is upheld

in full.

Moving onto President

1:05:501:05:55

Trump, he's threatening tariffs on

cars imported into the US which

1:05:551:05:58

would include cars coming from the

UK, Jaguar Land Rover brought over

1:05:581:06:05

100,000 into the US. If he makes

good on the threat of 10% tariffs,

1:06:051:06:10

what will the UK do about that?

At

the moment we are part of the EU and

1:06:101:06:16

would be talking with the commission

and European partners about our

1:06:161:06:20

collective response to this. I just

think that the United States is not

1:06:201:06:29

taking an advisable course. Trade

wars don't do anybody any good.

But

1:06:291:06:38

you know there's every possibility

Donald will go with this so what

1:06:381:06:45

would the EU do?

We would have to

see what happens. There's a lot of

1:06:451:06:49

concern recently about something

comparable as regards to aviation

1:06:491:06:53

and the aircraft we produced in part

in Belfast and the American

1:06:531:06:57

authorities at the end of the day to

drop back down and said no, that is

1:06:571:07:01

not the way we should be going.

We

tried in Britain in the 1960s

1:07:011:07:06

getting our car industry from

competition. It didn't work, it

1:07:061:07:12

protected inefficiencies, we lost

all our export markets because our

1:07:121:07:15

competitors went out and gobble them

up and the car industry had to go

1:07:151:07:21

through a very painful restructuring

to get to the success story it is

1:07:211:07:25

now.

Once we have left the European Union

1:07:251:07:28

and customs union, we will be able

to respond to a tariff or trade war

1:07:281:07:33

like this entirely differently so if

this were happening in three years,

1:07:331:07:37

what would the British government be

able to do in response to American

1:07:371:07:42

president threatening tariffs?

That

is likely piling hypothesis on

1:07:421:07:47

hypothesis, but it would also depend

in part on the nature of the

1:07:471:07:50

agreement that I hope we conclude

with the EU on industrial goods and

1:07:501:07:55

cross-border supply chains but we

would be free to impose our own

1:07:551:07:59

trade defence measures against any

country that is trying to dump on

1:07:591:08:02

the UK market and the bill is

currently going through Parliament

1:08:021:08:07

will give the UK authorities the

power to do just that.

David

1:08:071:08:12

Lidington, thanks for talking to us

this morning. We will now turn to

1:08:121:08:17

our expert Anil and what they think

it means for the future. Steve, this

1:08:171:08:25

idea of the potential of a trade

battle going on between the EU and

1:08:251:08:29

US takes us to part of whether the

UK can make up its own responses,

1:08:291:08:34

doesn't it?

Yes, and it's very

interesting David Lidington saying

1:08:341:08:39

we are leaping several hurdles here

because he hopes that post Brexit

1:08:391:08:44

the UK and the EU are lined terms of

other sectors. Whether they get that

1:08:441:08:53

sector by sector deal is highly

questionable so that's one of the

1:08:531:08:57

several hoops that it is very hard

to navigate. If you have a president

1:08:571:09:03

of the United States who is a

protectionist butting up tariffs,

1:09:031:09:06

that will have an impact on the rest

of the world. No country operates

1:09:061:09:10

alone in this global market. That is

the harsh reality. It has been lost

1:09:101:09:17

sometimes in arguments about

sovereignty and Britain going it

1:09:171:09:20

alone and the rest of it. It has an

immediate impact on every other

1:09:201:09:26

country and they are partly

powerless to do very much about it.

1:09:261:09:30

Is Donald Trump threatening this is

a clearer example as to why Britain

1:09:301:09:38

needs to leave the customs union,

Isabel?

I think we will have a

1:09:381:09:44

better deal with the EU than Donald

Trump does.

1:09:441:09:52

Trump does. Trump hates the EU, he

doesn't hate Britain, he wants

1:09:521:09:56

things to work well for us. He has

been very consistent about that and

1:09:561:10:03

always said America first so I

agree, it is possible he will go

1:10:031:10:07

ahead with this but also equally it

is possible that we will strike

1:10:071:10:11

something very positive with the US.

We did promise we will talk about

1:10:111:10:16

something other than Brexit for

small parts of the programme so

1:10:161:10:20

let's pick up on the housing

announcement coming tomorrow from

1:10:201:10:22

the Government. It feels like every

six months or so the Government will

1:10:221:10:30

-- promised they will build more

homes, and I being cynical?

I think

1:10:301:10:34

what they are promising now is

exactly what they promised in the

1:10:341:10:38

White Paper on housing, this is just

fleshing it out. It is the exact

1:10:381:10:44

same announcement. That said, what's

quite good about this, to some

1:10:441:10:48

extent I think the language is too

aggressive about councils and that

1:10:481:10:53

is what Labour is picking up on. For

a long time, politicians have

1:10:531:10:58

focused on things which are demand

side in the housing market because

1:10:581:11:04

it is sexier. Help to buy, right to

buy, and yet they can exacerbate the

1:11:041:11:10

problem because if anything while

helping a few people they are

1:11:101:11:14

pushing up prices potentially. What

they are doing here unapologetically

1:11:141:11:17

is focusing on the supply side and

that's what they need to do. It

1:11:171:11:22

isn't very sexy, it is not on every

front page today, the speech

1:11:221:11:26

tomorrow won't have as much of an

effect as the speech on Friday but

1:11:261:11:30

this is probably one of the biggest

crisis facing the country.

Probably

1:11:301:11:35

something voters care more about

than Brexit?

And the timing of this

1:11:351:11:41

is very interesting, coming up to

local elections in London Tories are

1:11:411:11:45

expected to do very badly. Sadiq

Khan's record on housing is

1:11:451:11:50

extremely questionable to say the

least and I think this is an area

1:11:501:11:54

where the Tory party senses it could

be more proactive.

Is there enough

1:11:541:11:59

oxygen in the room for people to

concentrate on housing for voters to

1:11:591:12:03

get the message or ministers to push

this through?

Voters have got the

1:12:031:12:10

message. Grandparents understand it

even if they don't want house

1:12:101:12:14

building near them because their

grandchildren cannot buy because

1:12:141:12:17

they cannot afford to in certain

parts of the country so everybody

1:12:171:12:22

agrees about the ens, we need more

housing, it is just another means. I

1:12:221:12:27

completely agree that right to buy

doesn't address the issue of more

1:12:271:12:32

housing. This does partly but I

think the cabinet needs a housing

1:12:321:12:36

minister in the Cabinet accountable

and to say right, we are going to

1:12:361:12:41

build this number through various

means and I am accountable to make

1:12:411:12:45

sure it happens. It needs that level

of focus.

At the same time as

1:12:451:12:51

Brexit, it should be housing?

Yes,

they have the right issue. There are

1:12:511:12:57

many issues, Brexit is sucking up to

much energy. There are tonnes of

1:12:571:13:02

shoes we should be focusing on but

this is one of them.

Excellent,

1:13:021:13:08

thank you for coming in.

1:13:081:13:10

That's all for today.

1:13:101:13:11

Join me again next Sunday

at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:111:13:14

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:141:13:21

Sarah Smith and Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include former Conservative leader Lord Howard, shadow secretary of state for housing, communities and local government Andrew Gwynne MP and minister for the Cabinet Office David Lidington MP. On the political panel are Isabel Oakeshott, Anushka Asthana and Steve Richards.


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