04/03/2018 Sunday Politics London


04/03/2018

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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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Theresa May's big Brexit speech

appears to have done the impossible

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and united both sides

of her party for the time being

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but is the devil in the detail?

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We'll get the verdicts of former

Tory leader and Brexit supporter

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Lord Howard and leading backbencher

and Remain campaigner Nicky Morgan,

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and ask if they can

really both be happy.

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Away from Brexit, the Government yet

again promises to take on the Nimbys

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and build more houses

where we need them most.

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We'll go

through the proposals in detail.

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In London, with 1 million EU

citizens eligible to vote,

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will the local elections

in the capital become

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a referendum on Brexit?

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me today, I've got three

hardy souls who've struggled

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through the harsh conditions

to help me to make sense of all

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the big stories - Isabel Oakeshott,

Steve Richards and Anushka Asthana.

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Well, it was as week where politics

was often given second billing

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to the weather, with people up

and down the country battling

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the Beast from the East.

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But snow or not, Theresa May had her

crucial Brexit speech to give,

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and she had a few big beasts herself

to contend with.

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Forget the weather, the UK faced

a Brexit blizzard this week.

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On Monday, Jeremy Corbyn offered up

a clear dividing line between Labour

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and the Conservatives.

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Labour would keep Britain

in a customs union with the EU.

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Labour would seek to negotiate

a new, comprehensive UK EU customs

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union to ensure there are no

tariffs with Europe.

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On Tuesday, international

trade secretary Liam Fox

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immediately hit back.

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It would be a complete sell-out

of Britain's national interest

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and a betrayal of the voters

in the referendum.

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But his speech was overshadowed

by a warning shot from the former

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boss of his own department -

Sir Martin Donnelly said leaving

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the single market and the customs

union would risk the UK

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going from feast to famine.

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It's like giving up a three course

meal for a packet of crisps.

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Also on Tuesday, Foreign Secretary

Boris Johnson took to the radio

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waves to try to ease tensions

on Northern Ireland after Brexit.

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He wasn't entirely persuasive.

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There's no border between

Camden and Westminster.

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You can't compare two boroughs

of London with the kind

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of difference in the arrangements

that would be in place after Brexit

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between the UK and the EU.

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I think it's a very

relevant comparison.

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On Wednesday, former

Prime Minister Sir John Major said

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MPs should be given a free vote

on the final Brexit deal.

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So let Parliament decide or put

the issue back to the people.

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And the EU Commission published

the first legal draft

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of the UK's exit treaty.

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The proposals were controversial.

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To avoid a hard border,

Northern Ireland must stay

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in the customs union

if all else fails.

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Theresa May was having none of it.

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No UK Prime Minister

could ever agree to it.

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On Thursday, diplomatic niceties

with the European Council

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President Donald Tusk,

as he got a preview of the Prime

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Minister's big Brexit speech.

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But the real test would come later,

when she would need a lot

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of grit to keep all members

of her own party onside.

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The big day arrived,

and with it some hard truths.

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We are leaving the single market.

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Life is going to be different.

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In certain ways, our access to each

other's markets will be

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less than it is now.

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Even after we have

left the jurisdiction

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of the European Court of Justice,

EU law and the decisions of the ECJ

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will continue to affect us.

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This was also a pitch

for a pick and mix Brexit.

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She said all EU trade deals

are tailor-made and what Britain

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wants is no different.

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If this is cherry picking,

then every trade arrangement

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is cherry picking.

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He was happy, and so was he.

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Despite being stranded

and left out in the cold.

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So, has the Prime Minister managed

to thaw the tensions

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between her Cabinet on Brexit?

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Time will tell.

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There is more than enough to chew

over with our expert panel who will

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tell us what's been going on behind

the scenes this week. Anushka, we

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asked the question, has she achieved

the impossible and United warring

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factions of the Conservative Party

over Brexit? It looks that way, will

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it stay that way?

It is impressive

politically that your guests will

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both have some praise for the speech

but it doesn't mean they agree with

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each other when it comes to Brexit.

I'm sure there's a lot they continue

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to disagree about. She managed to do

that by doubling down on the red

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lines she already had but saying

beyond that we will try to get as

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close as we can to the EU. I don't

think the Brexiteers are totally

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happy, they see this as a staging

post and happy that what she said

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future parliaments can change it.

She has done a magic trick now but

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trouble ahead still.

Isabel, a lot

of it was how in the immediate

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future we will stay tangibly similar

to EU rules and regulations, that

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won't hold with the Brexiteer crowd,

will it?

Only an idiot would predict

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peace and harmony within the Tory

party for more than a few days.

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party for more than a few days. I

think they recognise the immense

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discipline the Prime Minister

injected into the speech, in some

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ways that means bits of it don't

please everybody. There was

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frustration at the way she handled

some of the questions afterwards.

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Some would have liked her, for

example Nigel Farage, outside of the

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party of course, would have liked

her to be more explicit that no deal

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remains an option. On the other

hand, had she said that, that is

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provocative. I think Tory MPs found

she struck a balance and a great

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feeling of positivity this weekend,

maybe not next.

Steve, did it tell

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us a huge amount about what Brexit

deal might look like? Or is Theresa

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May sitting on the fence about what

the future deal will be?

I don't

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think she is sitting on the fence.

She gave a clear idea of what she

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envisages it to be. Watching it, and

reading it several times, I have

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reached the conclusion that she is

the only person that can lead this

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party.

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You have Michael Howard on in a

minute, you knows how difficult it

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is to do. She can do it and I think

they would be daft to get rid of

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her. However, having read the

speech, it is full of unexploded

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bombs metaphorically speaking. Like

the budgets that go down well on the

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day and then turn out to have hidden

bombs, I think this one does. In her

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admission we are giving up things,

we won't have the same market

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access, in saying we have given up

passporting for the financial

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services already. She did it to show

we weren't having our cake and

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eating it, she was honest, but it is

depressing to have that candour

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explained so clearly. And in

explaining we will be fully aligned

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with the EU in many ways but have

the right to diverged even if it is

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against our interest. And the all of

this, to have the right to diverge

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at a future date seems fraught with

difficulty. I see problems down

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road.

Steve's point about only this

Prime Minister can lead the party is

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a very astute one and that's what

I'm picking up this weekend, even

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from those who have been her

harshest critics, at her ability not

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to say too much which makes her seem

rather boring at times is precisely

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the reason she can manage these

delicate factions. I definitely feel

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time has run out now for those who

would like to have seen her gone

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well before Brexit next year. I feel

that has evaporated milk. We might

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be in a different place in a few

months but I would suspect not.

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Anushka bitchy answer the question

about the border between the

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Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon

Coveney said he's not sure the EU

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can support the plan she came up

with.

Both sides can smile and say

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they don't want a border, the

question is how you achieve that.

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The Government have put forward

these options, a customs partnership

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which is a slightly weird system

under which there would be checks on

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the UK border that would then be

acceptable for the rest of the EU.

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The problem is the rest of the EU

have suggested that won't be

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acceptable to them, and even very

senior figures in Government around

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the Cabinet table have told me they

think it is a completely unrealistic

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option. The second option is to use

technology to make it flow freely,

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perhaps not quite as Boris

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perhaps not quite as Boris Johnson

was suggesting, it happens in the

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congestion charge in London. He was

slightly mocked for those comments,

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but can there be a way to make it

softer in that way? Perhaps there

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can but there is no evidence you

would end up with no border. Then

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there's that tricky situation of the

EU saying the backstop is Northern

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Ireland stays in the customs union,

and the Prime Minister says that is

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unacceptable.

Thank you for that,

stay with us.

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Theresa May was on the

Andrew Marr Show this

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morning, and she was asked how

the UK's rules and regulations

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might move away from

the EU's in the future.

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Parliament will be able to take

decisions about the rules that

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are set, so in the circumstances

in which the EU

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change a particular rule,

there'd be a decision

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for us to take.

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Did we accept it

in the future or not?

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But if we didn't accept it,

there'd be an arbitration mechanism,

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an independent arbitration

mechanism, so people

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would look at it and say,

actually, you know what,

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if the UK doesn't accept that,

does it make any difference

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to the trading relationship?

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And they might say no, it doesn't,

so there's no consequence.

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They might say yes, it does,

and so there would be a consequence.

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So you're saying we might

lose market access -

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the more we diverge,

the more market access

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we might lose in the future.

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There'd be a decision to be taken.

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Joining me now from

Loughborough is the former

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Education Secretary Nicky Morgan,

who put her name down on a Commons

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amendment that calls for the UK

to participate in a customs union

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with the EU after Brexit.

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Good morning. So you heard the Prime

Minister ruling out a customs union

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which is what you say you want, and

they will be less access to EU

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markets in future, you cannot be

very happy with this speech, can

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you?

I thought it was a very

realistic speech that set out the

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compromises and hard facts we have

to face, and I think it was a

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welcome dose of realism. That's why

I think it has been welcomed from

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people on all sides of the debate

because we can get away from

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pretending things will stay the

same, that we can have the same

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benefits, and be honest with

ourselves and our constituents about

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what that means. The reason MPs put

down amendments is to get ministers

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to explain their position is more

fully and that's what we began to

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see in the Prime Minister's speech

on this issue of the border between

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Northern Ireland, the Republic of

Ireland on Friday. The Prime

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Minister could not have been more

clear this morning and last week

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that she does not want to see a hard

border between them, and that's

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where we are as well. I think there

are more discussions to come about

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the two options, as Anushka was

setting out, that the Prime Minister

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outlined, and we will have to see

what happens when the bill comes

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back to the House of Commons.

Your

amendment wasn't just about Northern

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Ireland, it said you want the UK to

stay in the customs union with the

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EU. Now you say you want to talk to

the Prime Minister about this. Talk

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about what? We are either in the

customs union or knots and her

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speech made it clear she didn't want

a customs union.

I can speak for

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myself and my colleagues, many of

whom put their name down, it was

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about the Irish border issue because

many of us got to the stage of

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thinking how can this be resolved

without being in a customs union. I

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think many of us don't care what it

is called, it's a question of what

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it does. Does it avoid a hard border

and small traders having to make

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declarations each time they crossed

the border? I was a Treasury duties

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minister, I visited the Irish border

and it is 300 miles of incredibly

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porous countryside basically. People

are crossing it everyday for work,

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for trading, and it's not just about

the economics, it's about the

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cultural and political significance

of not a hard border.

The Irish

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government and Irish Foreign

Minister Simon Coveney were saying

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this morning he didn't think EU

would accept this. Theresa May said

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a long she doesn't want a hard

border, just saying that doesn't

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mean it won't happen and the EU

don't seem satisfied with what she

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laid out as a possible solution.

The

first point is, as I said in a tweet

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on Friday, the EU cannot say and

Simon Coveney recognise that this

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morning, the EU cannot say it

doesn't know what the UK Government

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wants. Simon Coveney also agreed, as

the Prime Minister rightly set out,

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this is a problem that has been

created by Brexit and it's up to the

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UK Government, the EU and Irish

government to work together to find

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a solution. I think it is right that

talks will continue in one of those

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areas where it is best for the Irish

government and UK Government to be

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talking directly because at the

moment what's been remarkable is how

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cohesive the 27 have been in

negotiating through the commission

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but there may be ways to speed up

discussions, particularly on the

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Irish border issue. What we saw on

Friday is the Prime Minister saying

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there's difficult things ahead.

People won't remember ultimately the

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negotiations, they will remember the

enduring deal that's struck, that

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puts livelihoods and economic

security first.

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One of the hard fact is that she

laid out is we will have less access

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to EU markets. That is one of the

things that you as a Remainer have

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been worried about. Maybe she is

being pragmatic and you're welcome

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that, but is that pragmatism not

admitting were going to be worse off

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in future as a result of this?

I

think it probably is. Actually,

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while the speech was well come in

its towns, it did set out some of

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these hard truths. Some people have

said, nothing will change, it will

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have exactly the same benefits but

that is not the case. I am chair of

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the Treasury Select Committee, we

look at financial services. That

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industry understands that things are

going to change. The Prime Minister

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was clear, no more passporting.

People have reconciled themselves to

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this in the city. What next? The

Prime Minister is talking about

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mutual recognition of regulations,

that is the way to go, that is

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achievable, but this is the start of

negotiations and it is a long way to

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go. At least we are now on the

starting blocks. Your right to say

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that many of us have been concerned

about the prosperity and livelihoods

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of people in our constituencies and

our businesses. We welcome this

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speech but we will continue to watch

out for any drifting backwards

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towards some kind of idea logically

driven hard Brexit. That does not

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benefit anybody. As the Prime

Minister said on Friday, reverting

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to WTO is not a good outcome that

will benefit people in this country.

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The Prime Minister made clear that

the UK after Brexit can choose to

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stay aligned with the rules and

regulations of the EU or future

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parliaments to choose to diverged.

In those circumstances you will be

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fighting every step of the week to

try to stay aligned with the EU, I

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take it?

Not necessarily. That was a

really well come statement from the

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Prime Minister. It is for the

sovereign parliament to be making

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these decisions in future, which is

why we had the debate over the

0:17:420:17:46

amendment in December because

ultimately it should be sovereign

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Parliament that makes these key

decisions in the future. In terms of

0:17:500:17:55

divergences regulation, there may

well be good arguments in the future

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by businesses and industry say, we

do not need to be aligned with that

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regulation, because there is a

higher international standard that

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we can all get around and following

that will benefit our businesses.

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The point is, at the moment,

Parliament will take decisions about

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things on the basis of listening to

constituents, and that is what will

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happen in the future. That is

welcome. Financial services, that is

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the message we're getting by, there

are some international standards,

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which is what business already

comply with, higher standards than

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the EU, and that is what businesses

want to on complying with.

Nicky

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Morgan, thank you for talking to us.

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Listening to that is the former

Conservative leader Lord Howard,

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who campaigned for Britain

to leave the EU.

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You were nodding away in agreement

with Nicky Morgan all the way

0:18:440:18:48

through that interview. Not

something we thought we were going

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to see happen in the studio.

You

agree with her? I agree with very

0:18:510:18:55

much of what she said and I am

delighted to be able to agree with

0:18:550:18:59

her. Can I just say this about the

speech on Friday, I thought it

0:18:590:19:03

should the Prime Minister at her

best, cam, patient, disciplined.

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That is exactly the kind of approach

we need in these negotiations. I

0:19:090:19:15

think Steve Richards was right when

he said she is the only person who

0:19:150:19:19

can lead the country through these

negotiations, and she showed her

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qualities on Friday, and I think it

was an excellent speech, and it is

0:19:230:19:30

something, of course it is a good

thing from my point of view that it

0:19:300:19:33

seems to have united the

Conservative Party, but more

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importantly, I think it has united

the country. I think everyone in the

0:19:370:19:42

country, except perhaps those few

people are neither extreme, can

0:19:420:19:46

rally round. People like John Major

and Tony Blair? I fear that on this

0:19:460:19:53

issue John Major and Tony Blair are

to make love the people who have

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never been able to reconcile

themselves to the results of the

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referendum. I think a large majority

of people in the country, even of

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those who voted Remain, they now

say, let's get on with it and see

0:20:050:20:10

what we can get out of these

negotiations. Nicky Morgan was

0:20:100:20:14

absolutely right when she said that

in years to come people will not be

0:20:140:20:18

looking back at the negotiations.

They will be looking back at the

0:20:180:20:22

outcome.

The negotiations matter

because they determine the outcome.

0:20:220:20:26

You like the tone of the speech.

When you look at the detail, does it

0:20:260:20:31

really amounted taking back control

when the Prime Minister says the UK

0:20:310:20:34

will need to make a strong

commitment that regulatory standards

0:20:340:20:38

will remain as high as the EU and in

practice they will remain similar in

0:20:380:20:42

the future?

That is not what you

campaign for. In many respects they

0:20:420:20:47

will be similar. As the Prime

Minister said this morning, on the

0:20:470:20:50

Andrew Marr programme, these

regulations are not EU regulations,

0:20:500:20:55

the international regulations. The

crucial thing is that our sovereign

0:20:550:21:02

parliament, in future, will be able

to decide whether we remain in a

0:21:020:21:05

layman, which in many cases would be

a sensible thing to do, or whether

0:21:050:21:11

we diverged, which could also be

sensible. That is what taking back

0:21:110:21:15

control means.

The sovereign

parliament will decide. Look at

0:21:150:21:19

where we do remain in alignment and

a hard fact that Theresa May picked

0:21:190:21:23

out there, in order to maintain

access we may have to maintain a

0:21:230:21:27

layman. The EU will change their

rules over the next few deals --

0:21:270:21:31

over the next few years. We will end

up having to mirror rules that we

0:21:310:21:35

had no say at all in making if we

want to maintain access.

That is not

0:21:350:21:40

control. We will be able to decide.

In some cases it may be sensible to

0:21:400:21:46

change rules to remain in alignment

with the European Union's rules but

0:21:460:21:49

in other cases it will not be, and

we will be able to decide. That is

0:21:490:21:55

what taking back control means.

You're perfectly happy with

0:21:550:21:59

associated membership of some of the

EU agencies, medicine, chemicals,

0:21:590:22:04

the aviation safety agency, and with

paying a fee to be -- to be a

0:22:040:22:12

member. Very sensible. A year ago

you would not have been telling us

0:22:120:22:16

that you wanted to stay a member of

any of these agents is a tall.

You

0:22:160:22:22

never ask me. You would have been

surprised by the answer. These are

0:22:220:22:25

sensible, practical arrangements

that we benefit from, and the EU

0:22:250:22:29

benefits.

It is sensible. We were

promised famously by David Davis

0:22:290:22:34

that we would have the exact same

benefits of being in the customs

0:22:340:22:38

union and the single market after

Brexit. The Prime Minister herself

0:22:380:22:43

said something similar. Now she's

telling us we will have less access.

0:22:430:22:48

When people were told we could leave

the EU and maintain the same

0:22:480:22:52

benefits, were they being lied to?

Not at all. I think it is a

0:22:520:22:56

consequence of what the Prime

Minister has said, that in all

0:22:560:23:00

important respects, we will have the

access we need. There may be some

0:23:000:23:04

areas where that will not be the

case, but she dealt with the most

0:23:040:23:08

important aspect in her speech on

Friday and should have in the most

0:23:080:23:11

important areas we will be able to

have access. I think that will be

0:23:110:23:17

the outcome. It is in the interests

of the European Union as well as

0:23:170:23:20

ourselves that that should be so.

They want access to our large

0:23:200:23:25

market. We are one of the six

biggest economies in the world. They

0:23:250:23:29

want access to our markets. It will

be on both our interest to reach

0:23:290:23:33

that sort of agreement.

Both wings

of the Tory party might be happy

0:23:330:23:37

with this. The speech was received

less enthusiastically in Brussels.

0:23:370:23:42

The EU will publish their draft

guidelines on how they see a future

0:23:420:23:46

deal on Tuesday. If they do not

accept the approach that Theresa May

0:23:460:23:50

has laid out, what should she do

next?

Let's concentrate on the

0:23:500:23:55

positives. We are in a negotiation.

There will inevitably be posturing

0:23:550:24:00

by the European Union in the course

of these negotiations. That is what

0:24:000:24:04

negotiations always bring with them.

But I think, as I say, it is in both

0:24:040:24:09

our interest that we should have a

good deal. At the end of the day,

0:24:090:24:14

they want our money. They will not

get our money unless there is a good

0:24:140:24:19

deal.

It has been said that a trade

deal cannot be said by putting up a

0:24:190:24:24

few extra cherries in the Brexit

cake. This speech did not persuade

0:24:240:24:27

him that is a deal to be done.

He is

not in charge of the negotiations.

0:24:270:24:33

Michel Barnier did not seem terribly

impressed. Are they going to accept

0:24:330:24:40

the Prime Minister's view that you

can accept different access for

0:24:400:24:42

different sectors?

Let's wait and

see. Michel Barnier welcome the

0:24:420:24:47

speech. There is lots of posturing.

It is invading tress and hours to

0:24:470:24:52

arrive at a deal that is very

similar to that which the Prime

0:24:520:24:56

Minister set on Friday.

You're being

very positive about with the EU is

0:24:560:25:01

likely to do. They may well not do

that. Is there a point at which the

0:25:010:25:06

Prime Minister may be forced to walk

away because they will not meet

0:25:060:25:10

halfway?

I hope not but if you go

into any negotiations in, I want to

0:25:100:25:15

deal at any price, you will be taken

to the cleaners. That is true of

0:25:150:25:21

every negotiation. I agree with the

Prime Minister when she says that in

0:25:210:25:25

the ultimate circumstance, no deal

is better than a bad deal, but I do

0:25:250:25:28

not think we're going to have a bad

deal, I think we're going to have a

0:25:280:25:32

deal along the lines the Prime

Minister set out on Friday.

She said

0:25:320:25:35

we are going to have to compromise

and we are not

0:25:350:25:42

and we are not going to get what we

want. We will have to meet someone

0:25:420:25:45

in the middle on this and the

response from the EU has not been to

0:25:450:25:49

say, we agree, let's talk about

compromise, it has to -- it has been

0:25:490:25:51

to maintain a lot of their hard

lines about cherry picking.

That

0:25:510:25:55

will change. Their approach to the

negotiations on the first stage

0:25:550:25:57

changed. All sorts of figures were

bandied about about the money we

0:25:570:26:02

would have to pay and they bore no

reality to the ultimate outcome. You

0:26:020:26:07

have to take these initial

negotiating positions with a pinch

0:26:070:26:09

of salt.

When the EU was negotiating

with Greece during its financial

0:26:090:26:17

crisis, they were absolutely

insistent, they did not soften their

0:26:170:26:19

lines.

No disrespect to Greece, but

we are not Greece. The European

0:26:190:26:27

Union needs access to our markets.

The European Union needs our money.

0:26:270:26:32

The situation is very, very

different from that which happened

0:26:320:26:36

between the EU and Greece.

Lord

Howard, thank you for talking to us

0:26:360:26:40

this morning.

0:26:400:26:43

As we've heard, Jeremy Corbyn

made his own big speech on Brexit

0:26:430:26:46

earlier in the week and he backed

a customs union.

0:26:460:26:48

So how would it work?

0:26:480:26:49

With me from Salford

is the Shadow Communities

0:26:490:26:51

Secretary, Andrew Gwynne.

0:26:510:26:52

Thank you very much for coming in to

speak to us today. We have got to

0:26:520:26:57

make a very different approaches.

Jeremy Corbyn at the beginning of

0:26:570:27:00

the week saying he wanted to stay in

a customs union, Theresa May on

0:27:000:27:06

Friday pretty much ruling it out. Is

it not Theresa May who is being

0:27:060:27:11

honest with the voters by laying out

the hard fact, as she puts it, that

0:27:110:27:15

we will have to accept we have less

access to the EU market?

Absolutely

0:27:150:27:20

not. That we are leaving the

European Union is decided. We had a

0:27:200:27:25

referendum, but the Thames by which

we leave the European Union is what

0:27:250:27:29

the negotiations are all about and

the Labour Party has always said it

0:27:290:27:32

would seek to maintain the benefits

of a customs union. In doing that,

0:27:320:27:37

we have set out our proposals for

what we think that new arrangement

0:27:370:27:41

should be, I bespoke agreement

between the EU in the UK that would

0:27:410:27:48

maintain the benefits of tariff free

trade between the UK and the

0:27:480:27:51

European Union going forward. But

one in which we are equal partners,

0:27:510:27:56

so we have a say on those new trade

deals that are being made and a half

0:27:560:28:02

of the new arrangements between our

two trading blocs.

That has never

0:28:020:28:07

happened with any other country that

has entered into a customs union

0:28:070:28:10

with the EU. Why do you think they

would give us an equal say, one of

0:28:100:28:15

us against 27 of them, when it came

to a negotiating a trade deal with

0:28:150:28:20

someone else somewhere else in the

world?

The EU is different trading

0:28:200:28:23

arrangements with different

countries.

It does and none of them

0:28:230:28:27

have a say in outside trade deals.

The difference here, as Lord Howard

0:28:270:28:32

said, we are the largest economy the

world. The European Union has

0:28:320:28:38

important trading links with the

United Kingdom, it is a two-way

0:28:380:28:42

process, and therefore it is in both

of interest that we strike a deal

0:28:420:28:46

that benefits both of us.

I do not

know what is happening on this

0:28:460:28:50

programme. You are agreeing with

Laura Taarabt, he's agreeing with

0:28:500:28:54

Nicky Morgan. It is a very unusual

morning.

You're all in the same

0:28:540:28:59

side. The difference is the

Conservatives have ruled out a

0:28:590:29:03

customs union, and we are saying

that a customs union is vital, not

0:29:030:29:06

least that we can give real

assurances that the Good Friday

0:29:060:29:10

Agreement and our treaty obligations

in the Good Friday Agreement are not

0:29:100:29:14

torn up. We do not want to lose the

advantage is that we have seen of 20

0:29:140:29:18

years of peace between Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

0:29:180:29:23

If the EU says, you can remain in a

customs union but you do not get a

0:29:230:29:26

large say in future trade deals with

countries outside of the EU and you

0:29:260:29:30

just have to accept what is

negotiated by the EU 27, would you

0:29:300:29:34

still want to be in that customs

union?

We would have to look at that

0:29:340:29:39

carefully. We want to be a rule

maker

0:29:390:29:46

maker and not a real taker. It is

hard to do that if you stay in a

0:29:460:29:50

customs union. Unless you have a new

arrangement whereby the United

0:29:500:29:52

Kingdom sits at the table when those

trade deals are being made. That is

0:29:520:29:55

the new arrangement that we seek to

make. We believe we would be in a

0:29:550:29:59

better position to make those

arrangements with the European Union

0:29:590:30:02

because we have approached the

Brexit negotiations in an entirely

0:30:020:30:06

different manner. We have said what

we would like to see in terms of

0:30:060:30:11

transitional arrangements, the

government subsequently followed on

0:30:110:30:13

a number of those issues, but all

along we have said that we want to

0:30:130:30:18

maintain the benefits of tariff free

custom free trade, and that is

0:30:180:30:22

absolutely crucial, not least for

the Northern Ireland issue.

One of

0:30:220:30:26

the things the Labour Party was

looking forward to have to Brexit,

0:30:260:30:31

and that Jeremy Corbyn has stressed,

was the freedom from state aid

0:30:310:30:35

rules, where the EU stops the UK

Government from giving financial

0:30:350:30:39

assistance to any particular sector

of industry. Theresa May spoke about

0:30:390:30:44

that on Friday and said it would be

necessary to sign up to the

0:30:440:30:47

directives on state aid and

procurement rules, to keep those EU

0:30:470:30:51

rules. Do you accept that will have

to happen?

0:30:510:30:58

No, and we have a different view

anyway. When it came to our

0:30:580:31:04

arguments the Government should step

in to assist the steel industry in

0:31:040:31:08

Britain, the Government used these

fallacies about state aid rules to

0:31:080:31:12

excuse themselves for not giving

adequate support to that industry.

0:31:120:31:16

We didn't believe in the

interpretation the Government made

0:31:160:31:19

because other European countries

have got round the so-called state

0:31:190:31:23

aid rules. We have said as part of

our negotiations, that is a red line

0:31:230:31:29

for us. We would want to make sure

we could facilitate state aid in a

0:31:290:31:36

number of areas where Labour Party

policies have been clearer about

0:31:360:31:39

supporting our industries.

If that

is a red line, is it more important

0:31:390:31:42

staying in the customs union, if you

have to make the choice? The EU

0:31:420:31:47

could say no customs union if you

insist on state aid.

We believe we

0:31:470:31:56

could get a bespoke arrangement for

a new customs relationship, a new

0:31:560:32:01

customs union.

I think there's a

name for that, isn't it called

0:32:010:32:06

cherry picking?

No because we

believe this is in the interests of

0:32:060:32:10

the UK and in the interests of the

European Union. 44% of our trade is

0:32:100:32:15

with the European Union, 53% of the

EU's trade is with the UK so it is

0:32:150:32:21

in both our interests that we sort

this out and get the best deal not

0:32:210:32:29

for the European Union but for

Britain outside of the European

0:32:290:32:32

Union.

You seem to be saying the

Tory government are asking for the

0:32:320:32:35

impossible in their negotiations and

won't get what they are looking for

0:32:350:32:39

but somehow if there was a Labour

government negotiating this deal,

0:32:390:32:43

all doors would open and you would

be able to select which bit of the

0:32:430:32:47

customs union you did and didn't

like and could have a bespoke deal

0:32:470:32:50

that is not available for some

reason to Theresa May.

They ruled

0:32:500:32:56

out a customs union, I think that is

a bad decision because I believe a

0:32:560:33:02

customs union, negotiated between

the UK and the European Union 27 is

0:33:020:33:07

in the best interests of sorting out

customs free tariff-free trade going

0:33:070:33:12

forward but also sorting out the

issue of the border between Ireland,

0:33:120:33:16

north and south.

Labour set out six

tests as to whether they would vote

0:33:160:33:22

for the Brexit deal in the end and

one of those was that it had to

0:33:220:33:26

deliver the same benefits we get

from being in the single market and

0:33:260:33:31

customs union. That was a quote from

David Davis, but Theresa May has

0:33:310:33:35

been clear we are not going to get

the same benefits. Does this mean

0:33:350:33:41

Labour under no circumstances will

be able to vote for any Brexit deal

0:33:410:33:46

that's been negotiated?

Let's see

what Brexit deal comes back before

0:33:460:33:50

we have a hypothetical vote on this.

You don't think there's any

0:33:500:33:54

circumstances in which it could come

back...

I believe if the Government

0:33:540:33:59

wanted to enter into negotiations to

do that, they could do that. The

0:33:590:34:03

fact the Prime Minister has conceded

is probably because they have ruled

0:34:030:34:07

out a customs union. We believe that

is the wrong decision, we believe

0:34:070:34:12

that arrangement is possible, but

let's see what the Government comes

0:34:120:34:16

back with and then we will decide

how we vote in parliament.

0:34:160:34:21

Parliament has got a meaningful vote

and that was something that had to

0:34:210:34:25

be secured through the parliamentary

processes. The Government weren't

0:34:250:34:30

going to give us that right and I

think it is right it is ultimately

0:34:300:34:35

Parliament that decides.

Thank you.

0:34:350:34:37

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:34:370:34:40

Still to come...

0:34:400:34:41

As the government promises to cut

red tape to get more houses built,

0:34:410:34:44

we'll ask the Cabinet Office

minister David Lidington

0:34:440:34:46

whether they're finally prepared

to take on the nimbys.

0:34:460:34:48

First though, it's

time for the Sunday Politics

0:34:480:34:50

where you are.

0:34:500:34:53

Hello and welcome to

the London part of the show.

0:35:010:35:03

I'm Jo Coburn.

0:35:030:35:04

With me for the duration

today, Andy Slaughter,

0:35:040:35:06

Labour MP for Hammersmith,

and Chris Philp, Conservative

0:35:060:35:08

MP for Croydon South.

0:35:080:35:09

Welcome to both of you.

0:35:090:35:11

I want to start with

the latest on Brexit.

0:35:110:35:14

On Friday, the Prime Minister

made her latest keynote

0:35:140:35:18

speech on leaving the EU,

whilst the Labour leader,

0:35:180:35:20

Jeremy Corbyn, earlier in the week

announced Labour's new position

0:35:200:35:22

on the Customs Union.

0:35:220:35:25

First of all though, Chris Philp,

the Prime Minister says

0:35:250:35:27

there will be less access

to the single market

0:35:270:35:29

than we had before.

0:35:290:35:30

Is that a good thing for business?

0:35:300:35:34

I think it's a realistic

assessment of where we are,

0:35:340:35:36

given we are leaving

the European Union.

0:35:360:35:38

I thought the speech was very

good, it was balanced.

0:35:380:35:40

It recognised that we couldn't

continue having the same level

0:35:400:35:45

of access as now because if

we did we effectively

0:35:450:35:48

wouldn't be leaving.

0:35:480:35:53

Right, so why did the Brexit

Secretary say we will have

0:35:530:35:56

the exact same benefits of leaving

the EU as we had when we were

0:35:560:35:59

in the single market?

0:35:590:36:01

I think what the Brexit Secretary

meant and what the Prime Minister

0:36:010:36:03

said in her speech last week

was that we are going to have a deep

0:36:030:36:07

and special trade relationship.

0:36:070:36:08

We are going to be signing up

to broadly common standards.

0:36:080:36:11

That's a critical thing to say

because it means we can trade freely

0:36:110:36:14

if we accept our regulatory

standards are going to be broadly

0:36:140:36:17

equivalent of the European Union's.

0:36:170:36:18

Broadly equivalent but not as high.

0:36:180:36:19

No, certainly not as high.

0:36:190:36:20

In fact she said in some areas

like workers' rights,

0:36:200:36:23

environmental standards,

she would expect UK standards to be

0:36:230:36:25

even higher than European standards

as they currently are.

0:36:250:36:27

But the point is they won't be

identical, they're going

0:36:270:36:29

to be broadly equivalent

with an independent body,

0:36:290:36:31

not the ECJ, deciding

whether they are equivalent or not.

0:36:310:36:34

And that means we can

continue to trade freely

0:36:340:36:36

and that's very important.

0:36:360:36:37

I mean it was a reality check

for Brexiteers, wasn't it?

0:36:370:36:40

The ECJ, the European Court

of Justice, will still arbitrate

0:36:400:36:42

over certain things,

we will still be signed up to some

0:36:420:36:45

of the key European agencies.

0:36:450:36:46

It was a realistic approach,

as you said, because the UK

0:36:460:36:49

Government has realised they can't

get what they want.

0:36:490:36:51

I don't think the European Court

of Justice will be arbitrating.

0:36:510:36:53

I think its judgments will have some

influence in some of the bodies

0:36:530:36:56

that we are still part of.

0:36:560:36:58

It was a balanced and realistic

speech that lays the foundations

0:36:580:37:01

for a really good free trade deal

and I'm delighted she made it.

0:37:010:37:04

And do you accept that?

0:37:040:37:05

It's just chaotic, isn't it?

0:37:050:37:06

In what way?

0:37:060:37:07

We are not that much further forward

because Theresa May can't

0:37:070:37:10

commit herself absolutely

because she will...

0:37:100:37:11

One faction in her party,

either the pro-Brexit extremists

0:37:110:37:15

or the Remainers will suddenly say

that's it, so she has

0:37:150:37:17

to keep the show going.

0:37:170:37:25

But she'll say on the one hand

we are not going to sign up to any

0:37:260:37:30

of those terrible things

like the customs union

0:37:300:37:32

and single market,

0:37:320:37:33

but on the other hand I want us

to have the best possible

0:37:330:37:36

deal that's going.

0:37:360:37:37

What has Labour promised

your constituents?

0:37:370:37:38

I mean will your constituents say

that Labour has a better policy

0:37:380:37:41

in terms of its promises

of the customs union?

0:37:410:37:43

Absolutely.

0:37:430:37:44

My constituents I think know that,

which is probably why my majority

0:37:440:37:48

trebled at the last election.

0:37:480:37:49

But they don't want to be part

of the single market, do they?

0:37:490:37:52

Jeremy moved the party

significantly, Jeremy's speech

0:37:520:37:54

was significant last week because it

committed us to the customs union.

0:37:540:37:57

Out of the customs union.

0:37:570:37:58

There's very little

difference between those two.

0:37:580:38:03

What he says is that we want

to replicate the customs union

0:38:030:38:06

and as far as possible the single

market as well.

0:38:060:38:08

Those are significant moves

in the direction of travel,

0:38:080:38:11

which the party is going on.

0:38:110:38:14

Do you think Jeremy Corbyn will sign

up to a single market membership?

0:38:140:38:17

I think it's possible

that we will move further as time

0:38:170:38:21

goes on but the indications he has

given so far we want to maintain

0:38:210:38:25

the advantages that we had

as members of the EU.

0:38:250:38:27

But you can't have

your cake and eat it.

0:38:270:38:29

You can't both retain

all of the advantages and also

0:38:290:38:32

at the same time leave.

0:38:320:38:33

You must feel a bit sore

because he fired you,

0:38:330:38:35

didn't he, about a year ago.

0:38:350:38:37

You were sacked?

0:38:370:38:38

For advocating customs

union membership.

0:38:380:38:39

I don't feel sore about it,

I'm delighted that we are now

0:38:390:38:42

advocating that policy.

0:38:420:38:43

Yes, but on the basis that

you wanted single market membership

0:38:430:38:45

and he said you can no longer be

part of the team.

0:38:450:38:48

The job that I think Keir Starmer

and Jeremy are doing

0:38:480:38:51

is in recognising that

if we want to be a successful

0:38:510:38:54

trading country, we are going

to have to stay on the closest

0:38:540:38:56

possible terms with the EU

and they are making

0:38:560:38:59

pragmatic decisions.

0:38:590:39:00

What you get with Theresa May

is just bones thrown

0:39:000:39:03

to these lunatic fringe,

the Rees-Moggites and so forth,

0:39:030:39:06

just to say we are still going to be

a hard Brexit, anti-European party

0:39:060:39:09

while admitting that...

0:39:090:39:11

Let's talk about the City

of London because the City

0:39:110:39:14

of London financial services,

an important part of the economy,

0:39:140:39:17

and Theresa May said we are not

looking for passporting

0:39:170:39:19

because we understand this

is intrinsic to the single market

0:39:190:39:23

of which we would no

longer be a member.

0:39:230:39:25

It would also require us to be

subject to a single rule book over

0:39:250:39:29

which we would have no say.

0:39:290:39:30

That's going to be very

damaging, isn't it?

0:39:300:39:32

But if you read the very next

paragraph in the speech,

0:39:320:39:35

which I'm sure we both have,

she goes on to say that we

0:39:350:39:38

would commit to having

regulatory standards that

0:39:380:39:39

were of equivalent levels.

0:39:390:39:40

If that's acceptable to the EU.

0:39:400:39:48

I don't see why it wouldn't be

because they book over

0:39:490:39:51

half their debt and equity issuance

in London so they really would be

0:39:510:39:54

cutting off their nose

to spite their faces.

0:39:540:39:56

How would that be the same

as passporting, which the City

0:39:560:39:59

of London has now?

0:39:590:40:00

It would give us financial services

access providing that an independent

0:40:000:40:03

body found that our regulatory

standards were of a equivalent

0:40:030:40:05

standard broadly to the Europeans,

which we would expect them to be,

0:40:050:40:08

because in many ways our regulatory

standards are higher.

0:40:080:40:10

So that is passporting, isn't it?

0:40:100:40:11

It gives you market access

without having to be part

0:40:110:40:14

of the single market and signing up

to the last dot and comma

0:40:140:40:17

of every single last rule.

0:40:170:40:18

But I must say, I think

Andy's characterisation

0:40:180:40:20

a moment ago of the speech,

of sort of throwing bones to Jacob,

0:40:200:40:23

and by the way I don't

think he eats bones.

0:40:230:40:26

Jacob Rees-Mogg, this is.

0:40:260:40:27

Was rather unfair because I thought

this speech, if you read it

0:40:270:40:30

carefully, is very realistic and it

recognises where we need to make

0:40:300:40:32

concessions and it recognises

where the European Union does.

0:40:320:40:35

I think it was actually very

realistic and balanced,

0:40:350:40:37

and I think will provide

the foundations for a sensible

0:40:370:40:39

free-trade deal that

works for them and us.

0:40:390:40:41

Chris, you have to say that.

0:40:410:40:43

You were a Remainer and I suspect

you recognise this is all nonsense.

0:40:430:40:46

What we have done, if we have

rejected the advantages we had

0:40:460:40:49

of being in the EU and now

we are trying to sign up

0:40:490:40:52

to second-best versions of them...

0:40:520:40:53

But people voted to leave,

Andy Slaughter, didn't they,

0:40:530:40:55

and the point is one

of your colleagues, Frank Field,

0:40:550:40:57

said people like you have ratted

and are ratting on Labour leaders.

0:40:570:41:01

said people like you have ratted

and are ratting on Labour leavers.

0:41:010:41:03

Frank Field is one of half a dozen

Labour MPs who doesn't agree

0:41:030:41:06

with the direction of travel

the Labour Party has.

0:41:060:41:09

The Labour Party is actually very

united on this issue.

0:41:090:41:11

Theresa May has two problems.

0:41:110:41:12

One is how does she square leaving

the EU with the economic

0:41:120:41:15

success of the country,

but she's got that additional

0:41:150:41:19

problem that all Tory leaders have

had back to John Major which is how

0:41:190:41:25

do we reconcile the irreconcilable

Ken Clarke and Rees-Mogg?

0:41:250:41:28

Let's leave it there.

0:41:280:41:29

Westminster is regarded as the jewel

in the crown of local

0:41:290:41:32

government in London.

0:41:320:41:32

The Conservatives have been in power

there for as long as the City

0:41:320:41:35

of Westminster has existed

in its current form.

0:41:350:41:37

The opposition claim

the council is out of touch

0:41:370:41:40

and in hock to the privileged,

but they're now hitting back

0:41:400:41:42

with a policy to raise

money from the rich.

0:41:420:41:44

Will that be enough to save them

from the predicted Labour

0:41:440:41:47

upsurge in inner London?

0:41:470:41:48

Tanjil Rashid reports.

0:41:480:41:52

Westminster has some pretty

well-to-do residents.

0:41:520:41:54

The Queen, for one.

0:41:540:41:55

But it's not all swans

and stucco fronted terraces.

0:41:550:41:59

It has the highest number of rough

sleepers in the country,

0:41:590:42:02

one of whom recently died

yards from Parliament.

0:42:020:42:05

The city of Westminster has long

been divided with a diverse

0:42:050:42:08

population and a large number

of council estates.

0:42:080:42:13

The north tends to vote Labour and

returns the Labour MP to Parliament.

0:42:130:42:18

But then you have the rather more

affluent Tory leaning South

0:42:180:42:21

and the council as a whole has been

Conservative run since 1964.

0:42:210:42:28

If Labour want to take control here,

as some polling indicates may

0:42:280:42:31

happen, they need to win

in places like this.

0:42:310:42:34

Both the election results last year

but also the polling done since then

0:42:340:42:37

shows a really dramatic shift

to Labour, particularly

0:42:370:42:39

in inner London.

0:42:390:42:43

So the last bit of polling done show

a 13-point swing to Labour in inner

0:42:430:42:46

London and that is of the scale that

will enable Labour potentially

0:42:460:42:50

to take councils like

Wandsworth and Westminster.

0:42:500:42:54

If they manage to crack Westminster,

something seismic is happening

0:42:540:42:57

in British politics.

0:42:570:43:03

The Labour team are hoping

to capitalise on local

0:43:030:43:05

opposition to Brexit.

0:43:050:43:06

They are fielding an EU

citizen as a candidate.

0:43:060:43:10

Well, I meet other EU nationals

all the time when I'm campaigning

0:43:100:43:13

and you see that they are very,

very concerned about Brexit.

0:43:130:43:19

I think there's also

the anger over Grenfell,

0:43:190:43:21

which is round the corner from here.

0:43:210:43:25

There are people who previously

voted Conservative who are fed up

0:43:250:43:28

with Brexit, fed up with the hard

right Tory agenda nationally

0:43:280:43:31

and want to see something

at a local level that

0:43:310:43:34

represents their interests

more directly.

0:43:340:43:36

In order to win, they do need

to double the number

0:43:360:43:39

of councillors they have.

0:43:390:43:40

Labour currently have

15 to the Tories' 45.

0:43:400:43:43

The swing that's been projected

would be enough but the Conservative

0:43:430:43:45

leader of the council

believes her party

0:43:450:43:47

will weather the storm.

0:43:470:43:51

On the doorstep, we are being told

that they are voting

0:43:510:43:54

Conservative in Westminster.

0:43:540:43:55

They may vote for Labour

in the national elections

0:43:550:43:57

but many of them tell us in local

elections they vote for us.

0:43:570:44:01

And she has an eye-catching

policy to raise funds

0:44:010:44:03

from Westminster's wealthy.

0:44:030:44:07

Over the last couple of years,

wealthier residents have

0:44:070:44:09

asked us consistently,

why don't you put up

0:44:090:44:11

the council tax?

0:44:110:44:15

So this new voluntary

contribution asks those in

0:44:150:44:17

band H to pay a bit more,

consider paying a bit more.

0:44:170:44:21

Their council tax bill

for next year will be £833.

0:44:210:44:23

We are suggesting another £833.

0:44:230:44:27

Some of those targeted by the scheme

don't think it's a reliable way

0:44:270:44:30

to fund the council.

0:44:300:44:32

The voluntary contribution,

whilst very worthwhile,

0:44:320:44:37

doesn't necessarily give the council

any surety as to how much

0:44:370:44:39

money they will have.

0:44:390:44:44

It relies on goodwill

and being reliant on goodwill

0:44:440:44:46

is a little bit like a coconut shy

at the fairground.

0:44:460:44:51

You don't know whether you are going

to win that coconut or you're

0:44:510:44:54

not going to win it.

0:44:540:45:02

D'Hoore is

0:45:030:45:04

The scheme will be confirmed

by the council this week,

0:45:040:45:07

The scheme will be confirmed

by the council

0:45:120:45:14

is this week,

0:45:140:45:15

and come the election in May,

we will see whether or not

0:45:150:45:18

it is enough for Westminster to buck

the trend and remain in Tory hands.

0:45:180:45:21

That was Tanjil Rashid reporting.

0:45:210:45:22

The policy wonks there are saying

there is a 13% inner

0:45:220:45:26

London swing to Labour.

0:45:260:45:26

Were we to see that,

that would be enough

0:45:260:45:28

for Labour to take Westminster

for the first time.

0:45:280:45:30

How worried are you?

0:45:300:45:31

I think we have all seen how

accurate opinion polls

0:45:310:45:34

are the last election,

and at the referendum.

0:45:340:45:36

So you do not believe them?

0:45:360:45:37

Let's wait until the election

actually happens but I think

0:45:370:45:39

Westminster City Council

have an incredibly strong story.

0:45:390:45:42

They charge the lowest band D

council tax in the country,

0:45:420:45:44

it is less than half their immediate

neighbour, Labour-controlled

0:45:440:45:46

Camden, and yet their

services are excellent.

0:45:460:45:48

So why are Labour doing so well?

0:45:480:45:50

We do not know they

are doing so well.

0:45:500:45:52

They collect the bins twice

a week in Westminster.

0:45:520:45:54

In Croydon, my borough, Labour run,

bin collections have been cut.

0:45:540:45:56

They have the highest social

mobility in the country,

0:45:560:45:59

their children's services are rated

outstanding by Ofsted,

0:45:590:46:01

whereas in Croydon, the Labour

run borough I am from,

0:46:010:46:03

the children's services have been

found to be dangerous.

0:46:030:46:05

You're giving me a list

of what you see as the achievements

0:46:050:46:08

of the council but we've just heard

there, you may say, we cannot

0:46:080:46:11

believe the polls but look

what happened in the general

0:46:110:46:14

election, in terms of Jeremy Corbyn

and the Labour Party doing better

0:46:140:46:16

than people thought.

0:46:160:46:17

So I say to you again,

the last time this was a marginal

0:46:170:46:21

area, you have to go back

to Shirley Porter and the homes

0:46:210:46:23

for votes scandal.

0:46:230:46:25

So what is happening?

0:46:250:46:25

Andy Slaughter alluded to it.

0:46:250:46:27

Clearly in the general election,

a national election,

0:46:270:46:29

there were significant challenges

for the Conservatives,

0:46:290:46:30

especially in inner London but this

is a local election,

0:46:300:46:34

it is about local issues,

and Westminster Council,

0:46:340:46:36

in common with Wandsworth and other

Conservative councils,

0:46:360:46:39

do a fantastic job delivering

excellent services for low tax,

0:46:390:46:42

unlike Labour run councils,

like Croydon, where I am from,

0:46:420:46:44

who do a terrible job,

in things like children's services

0:46:440:46:46

and collecting rubbish

while charging exorbitantly

0:46:460:46:48

high council tax.

0:46:480:46:49

There would still have

to be an enormous swing.

0:46:490:46:52

It may be great publicity to say

that Labour may take the scalp

0:46:520:46:55

of a council that you have never

held in recent time,

0:46:550:46:58

but it is actually unrealistic?

0:46:580:47:00

I note the desperation

in Chris's voice.

0:47:000:47:04

And the fact that Labour is trying

to win Westminster very seriously,

0:47:040:47:07

which it is, and it has great

representation, a fantastic MP

0:47:070:47:11

in Karen Buck, great opposition

there, but you're right,

0:47:110:47:15

it is a very big ask,

because you're asking them to go

0:47:150:47:18

from having a quarter of the seats

to winning, but there is a chance,

0:47:180:47:21

but it will take a lot of work

and a big turnout from voters,

0:47:210:47:26

like the EU voters,

we heard from them,

0:47:260:47:27

but also from people who...

0:47:270:47:29

I'm sorry, but Chris absolutely gets

it wrong about Westminster.

0:47:290:47:33

It is a terrible council,

it has the sixth highest child

0:47:330:47:36

poverty in the country.

0:47:360:47:38

People think it is a wealthy area,

it is not, and yet they have taken

0:47:380:47:42

£10 million in the last two years

out of children's services.

0:47:420:47:44

But as you say, still unrealistic

for Labour to actually win it.

0:47:440:47:47

Could you sit here today and say,

we are going to win that?

0:47:470:47:51

You are very stupid to predict

the results of elections.

0:47:510:47:54

People were not predicting that

Labour would take Hammersmith three

0:47:540:47:56

years ago and we did.

0:47:560:47:58

We're the only council since then

to actually cut council tax

0:47:580:48:01

during that time in London.

0:48:010:48:03

I hope we will win again

on our record, but the Tory record

0:48:030:48:06

in Westminster is terrible,

particularly on housing,

0:48:060:48:08

one of the worst achieving councils

in terms of providing affordable

0:48:080:48:11

housing in London.

0:48:110:48:14

How do you judge this policy

from the leader of the council

0:48:140:48:17

who is asking the richest residents

to pitch in with a voluntary tax?

0:48:170:48:20

Do you support that?

0:48:200:48:23

This is more desperate,

amateur stuff.

0:48:230:48:25

You cannot run government

on the basis of charity.

0:48:250:48:30

The real crisis in local government

is because every council had

0:48:300:48:33

at least a third of its budget cut

by the cuts in central government.

0:48:330:48:38

During the austerity period,

central government rather cowardly

0:48:380:48:40

chose to cut local government rather

than cutting some

0:48:400:48:42

of its own services.

0:48:420:48:43

Is this just a gimmick?

0:48:430:48:46

Would you like your richest

constituents to pay around £850

0:48:460:48:49

a year more, donated

to council coffers?

0:48:490:48:52

I am always in favour

of trying new things.

0:48:520:48:54

You have got to be flexibly minded.

0:48:540:48:56

That is a no.

0:48:560:48:57

Let's give it a try.

0:48:570:48:59

I would be perfectly happy

for Croydon Council to do that.

0:48:590:49:03

The Conservatives on Croydon Council

have proposed exactly this measure

0:49:030:49:05

but take Westminster as an example.

0:49:050:49:10

On housing, which Andrew mentioned,

we've got 415 homeless places,

0:49:100:49:13

overnight shelter places

in Westminster, the

0:49:130:49:15

highest in the country.

0:49:150:49:16

There are seven teams of people

going around every night

0:49:160:49:19

in Westminster actively trying

to help homeless people so I think

0:49:190:49:22

Westminster has a proud record

of delivering great services for low

0:49:220:49:24

council tax and that is why

they deserve to get re-elected

0:49:240:49:27

because that is what these

elections are about.

0:49:270:49:29

Why not just put up council tax?

0:49:290:49:32

This system which Andy Slaughter

has said is a gimmick,

0:49:320:49:37

really, it is a charity,

a charitable donation,

0:49:370:49:41

rather than setting up a new system,

why not put up council tax,

0:49:410:49:44

why don't you advise

Westminster to do that?

0:49:440:49:46

It is up to Westminster to set

their own level of council tax.

0:49:460:49:49

Would that be better?

0:49:490:49:50

If they felt they absolutely needed

that money to run their services,

0:49:500:49:53

I am sure they would put

their council tax up,

0:49:530:49:55

but this is a voluntary measure

to provide additional services

0:49:550:49:57

and people can choose

whether to pay it.

0:49:570:49:59

A good idea for

the rich to pitch in?

0:49:590:50:01

Look, it is a joke.

0:50:010:50:03

You cannot run government

on the charity of individuals.

0:50:030:50:05

Street homelessness has gone up 140%

since the Tories got

0:50:050:50:07

back into government.

0:50:070:50:13

There are 2,500 families

in temporary accommodation

0:50:130:50:14

in Westminster.

0:50:140:50:16

It is a shambles and this

sort of gimmick is not

0:50:160:50:18

going to convince anybody.

0:50:180:50:19

Let's move on.

0:50:190:50:21

This week the Labour MP

for Bermondsey and Old Southwark,

0:50:210:50:23

Neil Coyle, wrote to EU citizens

in his constituency.

0:50:230:50:25

He urged them to regard the upcoming

local elections as a referendum

0:50:250:50:28

on the Prime Minister's handling

of the Brexit negotiations

0:50:280:50:30

and to vote for Labour accordingly.

0:50:300:50:31

Sebastien Ash has more.

0:50:310:50:37

Over one million EU citizens

in London are eligible to vote

0:50:370:50:42

in local council

elections on May the 3rd.

0:50:420:50:45

London's mayor, Sadiq Khan,

has called on them to,

0:50:450:50:47

send the Tory government the message

that we do not want their chaotic,

0:50:470:50:50

extreme hard-Brexit approach.

0:50:500:50:51

And in a letter targeted at EU

citizens in his constituency,

0:50:510:50:54

Labour MP for Bermondsey

and Old Southwark, Neil Coyle,

0:50:540:50:56

has said, as someone

from an EU member state,

0:50:560:50:58

you have to vote in

the local elections.

0:50:580:51:01

This will be a major chance to send

Theresa May's government a clear

0:51:010:51:04

message about her disastrous Brexit

policy and how it affects

0:51:040:51:06

you and our whole community.

0:51:060:51:09

The party's commitment this week

to staying in a customs union

0:51:090:51:12

with the EU could win votes

in the capital, and with significant

0:51:120:51:16

EU populations in swing councils

like Wandsworth and Barnet,

0:51:160:51:22

their votes could make

all the difference, but the EU

0:51:220:51:30

citizens rights group

The3million have said,

0:51:300:51:32

the jury is out on Labour

because they supported Article 50.

0:51:320:51:35

Joining me now, Costanza de Toma,

from the organisation The3million,

0:51:350:51:37

which lobbies on behalf

of EU citizens rights.

0:51:370:51:39

You say Labour cannot be trusted,

so who are you advocating EU

0:51:390:51:42

citizens should vote for?

0:51:420:51:43

Well, the key thing to say is

I think we would like EU nationals

0:51:430:51:46

to vote first and foremost.

0:51:460:51:50

We're not telling anybody

who to vote for, but we are talking

0:51:500:51:53

to our members, to our fellow EU

nationals, to be active citizens,

0:51:530:51:59

so to keep councillors accountable,

to make them accountable to us,

0:51:590:52:02

as they would to any

other constituents.

0:52:020:52:05

So we are equipping them

with questions to ask

0:52:050:52:07

when they are being canvassed

at their doorstep.

0:52:070:52:15

Do you get a sense that this

will be a referendum

0:52:300:52:32

on Brexit, these elections?

0:52:320:52:33

Well, of course it will,

but it is not about whether you're

0:52:330:52:36

for or against Brexit.

0:52:360:52:37

The3million, for instance,

does not itself take

0:52:370:52:38

a position on Brexit.

0:52:380:52:40

We are here to safeguard

citizens rights.

0:52:400:52:41

If there is a Tory run council that

will provide excellent services,

0:52:410:52:44

information services,

outreach, and to register

0:52:440:52:46

all EU nationals, then

why not support that?

0:52:460:52:47

What is the mood music coming back

from the members you have spoken to?

0:52:470:52:51

Well, there is a certain level

of distrust in the current

0:52:510:52:53

government, I have to say.

0:52:530:52:55

But equally, I think we have

heard a lot of noise,

0:52:550:52:57

we have heard lots of reassurances,

but they have been

0:52:570:53:00

empty reassurances.

0:53:000:53:05

What we need is actions, and we need

actions at the local level.

0:53:050:53:08

We're talking about local

elections and luckily

0:53:080:53:09

we have a vote at the local level.

0:53:090:53:15

What is this distrust based

on in terms of EU citizens' rights

0:53:150:53:20

because the government and no doubt

Chris Philp would say that those

0:53:200:53:23

rights are going to be guaranteed,

and even during the implementation

0:53:230:53:25

and transition period,

that now they will have

0:53:250:53:27

indefinite leave to remain,

although other rights may change?

0:53:270:53:29

Well, exactly.

0:53:290:53:30

The devil is in the detail.

0:53:300:53:33

We will not be keeping the same

rights that we have now.

0:53:330:53:35

And what the government has proposed

is a lesser immigration

0:53:350:53:38

status with fewer rights.

0:53:380:53:42

She's just being realistic,

Costanza, saying that there

0:53:420:53:46

is a level of mistrust

in the government and that is hardly

0:53:460:53:49

surprising based on past rhetoric?

0:53:490:53:50

Let's start with the local question.

0:53:500:53:52

She asked about what local

councils are doing.

0:53:520:53:53

Westminster City Council,

that we were just discussing,

0:53:530:53:56

are running an outreach event

tomorrow, Monday, which EU nationals

0:53:560:53:58

are invited to where they can

have all of their rights

0:53:580:54:01

and the processes explained.

0:54:010:54:02

They are already doing

in Westminster, a Conservative

0:54:020:54:04

controlled council, an enormous

programme of outreach,

0:54:040:54:06

exactly as you have just requested.

0:54:060:54:07

What about the level of trust?

0:54:070:54:11

I hope that will be recognised.

0:54:110:54:13

As far as the wider national

rights are concerned,

0:54:130:54:16

at the stage one agreement

on the 8th of December,

0:54:160:54:19

the Prime Minister and

the European Union made it clear

0:54:190:54:21

that European citizens

here would have the right to stay,

0:54:210:54:25

obviously, and after five years

living here would be able to get

0:54:250:54:28

settled status and after ten years

become full citizens.

0:54:280:54:31

Those people would also

have the right to bring over

0:54:310:54:34

close family members,

so that is a generous offer

0:54:340:54:36

which shows that we really do want

European Union citizens to stay

0:54:360:54:39

here and continue making

the phenomenal contribution

0:54:390:54:41

they have been making for the last

ten, 20 or 30 years.

0:54:410:54:45

Does that convince you?

0:54:450:54:46

It is in black and white,

in the agreement.

0:54:460:54:50

I am afraid it does not.

0:54:500:54:52

It is less than what we have

now, and it is not in

0:54:520:54:55

black and white yet.

0:54:550:54:56

The logic of your argument

is that your members are more

0:54:560:54:59

likely to vote for Labour,

as many other Londoners?

0:54:590:55:01

No, I would not say so.

0:55:010:55:04

We have not heard reassurances

from Labour either.

0:55:040:55:08

There have been very unfortunate

votes on our rights in the Commons

0:55:080:55:11

and Labour have not supported

citizens' rights, and to be honest,

0:55:110:55:14

remaining in a customs union

would make no difference

0:55:140:55:16

to freedom of movement.

0:55:160:55:20

That is the point.

0:55:200:55:22

Labour cannot be trusted

on this issue either,

0:55:220:55:24

because they have been very opaque.

0:55:240:55:28

There has been a move in terms

of saying we would be part

0:55:280:55:32

of a customs union if Labour

was the government but

0:55:320:55:34

in every other sense,

you voted to leave the EU?

0:55:340:55:36

I think The3million are doing a very

good job and it is right to be

0:55:360:55:40

evenhanded and encourage people

to vote, that is the

0:55:400:55:42

first important thing.

0:55:420:55:44

Labour are not doing any more for EU

citizens than the Tories?

0:55:440:55:48

Absolutely not and this is the thing

that most animates me

0:55:480:55:50

about the whole Brexit debate,

more than one in five

0:55:500:55:52

of my voters is an EU citizen.

0:55:520:55:55

I speak to many of them every

week, knocking on doors.

0:55:550:55:59

They are very, very upset,

traumatised I would say,

0:55:590:56:03

about the fact they're being treated

as second-class citizens, and they

0:56:030:56:05

feel they do not have a future.

0:56:050:56:07

Give me examples of how they feel

like they are treated

0:56:070:56:10

like second-class citizens?

0:56:100:56:11

Well, what we have

just talked about.

0:56:110:56:13

Settled status is not the same

as the rights they have now.

0:56:130:56:15

You're talking about

the transition period?

0:56:150:56:17

People who arrive after March 2019?

0:56:170:56:18

No, settled status.

0:56:180:56:22

This is part of the confusion.

0:56:220:56:24

There are going to be at least five

different types of rights you have.

0:56:240:56:28

You might be waiting

to acquire settled status,

0:56:280:56:29

have settled status.

0:56:290:56:30

In the transition period,

we now find out, contrary

0:56:300:56:32

to what Theresa May led us

to believe, you will not

0:56:320:56:35

have the right to settled status,

you will have the right

0:56:350:56:38

to indefinite leave

to remain after a period.

0:56:380:56:40

I barely understand this.

0:56:400:56:41

Most of the people I am talking

to do not understand it and they're

0:56:410:56:44

being treated in an appalling way

by this government.

0:56:440:56:46

That is why I think that

people will remember that

0:56:460:56:49

when they go and vote in May

because this is not...

0:56:490:56:51

Can you imagine treating

any other national group

0:56:510:56:53

or ethnic group like this?

0:56:530:56:56

Are you on a sticky wicket

in London, which is seen as a Remain

0:56:560:56:59

city, on the basis of what Costanza

has said and listening

0:56:590:57:02

to Andy Slaughter, this

is going to be extremely difficult

0:57:020:57:04

in these local elections?

0:57:040:57:06

We're not on a sticky wicket.

0:57:060:57:08

Andy and we saw the letter

from Neil Coyle, they are attempting

0:57:080:57:11

to scaremonger to win votes

at the May election

0:57:110:57:13

but the truth is European Union

citizens are welcome here.

0:57:130:57:15

We want them to stay.

0:57:150:57:23

Empty words.

0:57:250:57:27

Let me finish.

0:57:270:57:28

There is a very clear path

to acquiring not just permanent

0:57:280:57:30

right to stay but full British

citizenship, which we expect

0:57:300:57:33

the vast majority of

European Union citizens to do.

0:57:330:57:35

They're welcome to stay here,

we're making it easy to stay,

0:57:350:57:37

and they will continue making

a massive contribution

0:57:370:57:39

and it is in black and white,

it is in the agreement on the 8th

0:57:390:57:43

December, it is in the draft

withdrawal agreement, 117 pages

0:57:430:57:45

published by the European Commission

last Wednesday, it is there

0:57:450:57:48

in black and white.

0:57:480:57:49

All right.

0:57:490:57:50

We are going to have

to finish it there.

0:57:500:57:52

Costanza, thank you very

much for coming in.

0:57:520:57:54

That's all we've got time

for for the London part of the show.

0:57:540:57:57

My thanks to you for

being my guests today.

0:57:570:57:59

Bye-bye.

0:57:590:58:00

welcome back.

0:58:000:58:01

So how about a bit of

a break from Brexit?

0:58:010:58:03

This morning the government

announced new plans to make it

0:58:030:58:05

easier for more houses to be built,

with rules to cut red

0:58:050:58:08

tape so that there can

be more homes in areas

0:58:080:58:11

where they are needed the most.

0:58:110:58:12

The government says they will take

on what they call the "Nimby

0:58:120:58:15

councils" who don't build enough.

0:58:150:58:16

However, their problem is that a lot

of these councils are Conservative.

0:58:160:58:19

So could we be about to see

a battle between local

0:58:190:58:22

and central government?

0:58:220:58:23

With me now with hopefully

all the answers is Cabinet Office

0:58:230:58:25

Minister David Lidington.

0:58:250:58:27

Thanks very much for coming in.

Good

morning. If you're going to try and

0:58:270:58:32

build more homes in the south-east

of England, which is where the

0:58:320:58:35

demand is highest, these are going

to be your own councillors you're

0:58:350:58:39

taking on over this?

If you talk to

most Conservative councillors they

0:58:390:58:43

will get the need for more homes and

their significant growth in house

0:58:430:58:47

building. Actually, if you talk to

councils in my area you will see

0:58:470:58:53

councils that are getting on in

doing it with one of the fastest new

0:58:530:58:55

house-building rates anywhere in the

country.

Under this government

0:58:550:58:59

house-building rates have fallen

significantly. Fewer new houses a

0:58:590:59:03

year than there were under the

Labour government, 223,000 in 2007,

0:59:030:59:10

217,000, fewer now than word being

built under the last Labour

0:59:100:59:15

government.

The number of new houses

last year was 217,000, the

0:59:150:59:19

second-highest annual house-building

figure in 30 years. That is not a

0:59:190:59:23

record to be ashamed of. We have

also increased considerably the

0:59:230:59:27

spending on affordable homes in the

delivery of affordable homes in

0:59:270:59:30

council homes compared with what the

Labour government achieved. More

0:59:300:59:34

council houses have been built since

2010 than the entire 13 years in the

0:59:340:59:39

Labour government before that.

The

number of affordable homes being

0:59:390:59:42

built is going down.

0:59:420:59:47

built is going down. In 2010 it was

61,000, last year was 40,000.

This

0:59:470:59:50

is exactly why we have put in £9

billion, an extra 2 billion in the

0:59:500:59:54

last year alone, into the affordable

housing programme. What we need to

0:59:540:59:58

do is to get the new homes built.

That takes us to the planning

0:59:581:00:02

announcement that is being made

tomorrow, with a new national

1:00:021:00:06

planning policy framework for public

consultation. Houses and residents'

1:00:061:00:11

groups can feedback their views on

that. When I talk to councils I

1:00:111:00:16

find, and I talk to residents

concerned about new development,

1:00:161:00:20

what they want is to know that there

is going to be the infrastructure,

1:00:201:00:23

there is going to be the public

services to support new housing. I

1:00:231:00:28

find increasingly people get the

need for new housing.

People get the

1:00:281:00:32

need for new housing, they just do

not want it anywhere near them. That

1:00:321:00:37

is where the phrase Nimby comes

from.

I think that is being unfair.

1:00:371:00:42

When I say to

1:00:421:00:48

people, all can your children or

grandchildren afford to get on the

1:00:541:00:56

housing ladder, you see the heads

nodding, even among older residents.

1:00:561:00:58

They get the importance of this,

just as people get the significance

1:00:581:01:02

that we are living independently for

longer. That is great, but we also

1:01:021:01:03

need more accommodation, there are

more households for any given level

1:01:031:01:06

of population than we had in the

past. As well as having the house is

1:01:061:01:10

planned for, so that the locations,

as in the new guard in towns and

1:01:101:01:14

cities programme are being properly

planned for, you also need the

1:01:141:01:19

infrastructure, the transport, the

broadband to support that. That is

1:01:191:01:23

why the housing infrastructure fund

has been set up, so that local

1:01:231:01:27

councils can bid for that to support

unlocking development opportunities.

1:01:271:01:30

The government has said this morning

that Nimbys need to be tackled. But

1:01:301:01:39

the Nimbys and in the Cabinet. You

have said this needs to be done in a

1:01:391:01:42

way that protects the green belt.

The housing minister says every

1:01:421:01:45

effort must be made to avoid

building in the green belt. The

1:01:451:01:50

Prime Minister Minister said that

local authorities may only alter

1:01:501:01:54

green belt boundaries in exceptional

circumstances.

1:01:541:02:01

circumstances.

No, not at all, you

are underestimating the way green

1:02:031:02:07

belt is important. If you come back

to the Chilterns green belt area,

1:02:071:02:13

for people living in London, living

in Luton, High Wycombe, Milton

1:02:131:02:19

Keynes, Watford, these are places

expanding, new houses are being

1:02:191:02:22

built. Having that nearby is

something that is really important

1:02:221:02:28

so we need to plan housing alongside

conservation which is why when the

1:02:281:02:35

planning framework is announced

tomorrow and the Prime Minister

1:02:351:02:37

makes her big speech on housing, we

are also saying this will be

1:02:371:02:42

developed alongside and taking full

account of what Michael Gove and the

1:02:421:02:46

environment Department are doing

with a 25 year plans to improve the

1:02:461:02:50

environment of our country.

Let me

take you back to the speech the

1:02:501:02:54

Prime Minister made on Friday, her

Brexit speech. She made it clear one

1:02:541:02:59

of the hard facts was we weren't

going to get everything we wanted.

1:02:591:03:03

You are as close as you can beat her

thinking on this, what will she

1:03:031:03:08

compromise on?

Tempted as I am, I'm

not going to go into a detailed

1:03:081:03:15

negotiating position. We accept that

what we put forward is ambitious,

1:03:151:03:20

also credible idea for a close

economic partnership with the EU in

1:03:201:03:25

the future. The PM said in the text

of the speech that neither of us

1:03:251:03:29

will end up with everything they

wanted. What we need to do now is

1:03:291:03:35

see the EU's opening position, to

sit down and start to work through

1:03:351:03:39

in detail some of these points about

the law, how you deliver our

1:03:391:03:47

objectives of as frictionless trade

as possible, our economic

1:03:471:03:49

partnership in the future that

allows cross-border spy chains to

1:03:491:03:52

continue in a way that works to our

advantage and that of the EU 27

1:03:521:03:58

countries alike.

The Irish

government don't seem to be happy

1:03:581:04:02

about this, Simon Coveney said this

morning he doesn't then -- think the

1:04:021:04:11

EU will agree to it so we are no

closer to fixing the problem.

Simon

1:04:111:04:18

Coveney and the Taoiseach as well as

others have also the way to solving

1:04:181:04:21

the responsibilities over the Irish

border and avoiding the hard border

1:04:211:04:25

as to do that in the context of an

overall EU UK economic partnership

1:04:251:04:31

for the future, and go back to the

PM's speech on Friday and she set

1:04:311:04:34

out a number of elements of that. A

deal on goods that would mean the

1:04:341:04:41

and the EU recognise each other's

standards so British and European

1:04:411:04:48

goods circulated freely without the

need for border checks or paperwork.

1:04:481:04:53

That's what the Irish said they

don't think the EU will agree to.

I

1:04:531:04:58

think it is in the interests of the

EU to have this arrangement and

1:04:581:05:02

these sorts of detail are what we

need to get into to understand where

1:05:021:05:07

difficulties lie. The Prime Minister

also talks about a customs

1:05:071:05:12

arrangement or partnership with the

EU 27 in the future that would allow

1:05:121:05:16

us to simplify and eliminate some of

these problems. We already have

1:05:161:05:20

agreement on the continuation of the

Common travel area which means free

1:05:201:05:27

movement of people across the

jurisdiction border between the

1:05:271:05:28

island of Ireland and Ireland and

the UK. What the Cabinet are

1:05:281:05:35

committed to, and it was laid out in

the PM's speech, is that we see it

1:05:351:05:40

as essential to ensure there is not

a hard border on the island of

1:05:401:05:44

Ireland, that every aspect of the

Good Friday Agreement, both

1:05:441:05:50

east-west and north-south, is upheld

in full.

Moving onto President

1:05:501:05:55

Trump, he's threatening tariffs on

cars imported into the US which

1:05:551:05:58

would include cars coming from the

UK, Jaguar Land Rover brought over

1:05:581:06:05

100,000 into the US. If he makes

good on the threat of 10% tariffs,

1:06:051:06:10

what will the UK do about that?

At

the moment we are part of the EU and

1:06:101:06:16

would be talking with the commission

and European partners about our

1:06:161:06:20

collective response to this. I just

think that the United States is not

1:06:201:06:29

taking an advisable course. Trade

wars don't do anybody any good.

But

1:06:291:06:38

you know there's every possibility

Donald will go with this so what

1:06:381:06:45

would the EU do?

We would have to

see what happens. There's a lot of

1:06:451:06:49

concern recently about something

comparable as regards to aviation

1:06:491:06:53

and the aircraft we produced in part

in Belfast and the American

1:06:531:06:57

authorities at the end of the day to

drop back down and said no, that is

1:06:571:07:01

not the way we should be going.

We

tried in Britain in the 1960s

1:07:011:07:06

getting our car industry from

competition. It didn't work, it

1:07:061:07:12

protected inefficiencies, we lost

all our export markets because our

1:07:121:07:15

competitors went out and gobble them

up and the car industry had to go

1:07:151:07:21

through a very painful restructuring

to get to the success story it is

1:07:211:07:25

now.

Once we have left the European Union

1:07:251:07:28

and customs union, we will be able

to respond to a tariff or trade war

1:07:281:07:33

like this entirely differently so if

this were happening in three years,

1:07:331:07:37

what would the British government be

able to do in response to American

1:07:371:07:42

president threatening tariffs?

That

is likely piling hypothesis on

1:07:421:07:47

hypothesis, but it would also depend

in part on the nature of the

1:07:471:07:50

agreement that I hope we conclude

with the EU on industrial goods and

1:07:501:07:55

cross-border supply chains but we

would be free to impose our own

1:07:551:07:59

trade defence measures against any

country that is trying to dump on

1:07:591:08:02

the UK market and the bill is

currently going through Parliament

1:08:021:08:07

will give the UK authorities the

power to do just that.

David

1:08:071:08:12

Lidington, thanks for talking to us

this morning. We will now turn to

1:08:121:08:17

our expert Anil and what they think

it means for the future. Steve, this

1:08:171:08:25

idea of the potential of a trade

battle going on between the EU and

1:08:251:08:29

US takes us to part of whether the

UK can make up its own responses,

1:08:291:08:34

doesn't it?

Yes, and it's very

interesting David Lidington saying

1:08:341:08:39

we are leaping several hurdles here

because he hopes that post Brexit

1:08:391:08:44

the UK and the EU are lined terms of

other sectors. Whether they get that

1:08:441:08:53

sector by sector deal is highly

questionable so that's one of the

1:08:531:08:57

several hoops that it is very hard

to navigate. If you have a president

1:08:571:09:03

of the United States who is a

protectionist butting up tariffs,

1:09:031:09:06

that will have an impact on the rest

of the world. No country operates

1:09:061:09:10

alone in this global market. That is

the harsh reality. It has been lost

1:09:101:09:17

sometimes in arguments about

sovereignty and Britain going it

1:09:171:09:20

alone and the rest of it. It has an

immediate impact on every other

1:09:201:09:26

country and they are partly

powerless to do very much about it.

1:09:261:09:30

Is Donald Trump threatening this is

a clearer example as to why Britain

1:09:301:09:38

needs to leave the customs union,

Isabel?

I think we will have a

1:09:381:09:44

better deal with the EU than Donald

Trump does.

1:09:441:09:52

Trump does. Trump hates the EU, he

doesn't hate Britain, he wants

1:09:521:09:56

things to work well for us. He has

been very consistent about that and

1:09:561:10:03

always said America first so I

agree, it is possible he will go

1:10:031:10:07

ahead with this but also equally it

is possible that we will strike

1:10:071:10:11

something very positive with the US.

We did promise we will talk about

1:10:111:10:16

something other than Brexit for

small parts of the programme so

1:10:161:10:20

let's pick up on the housing

announcement coming tomorrow from

1:10:201:10:22

the Government. It feels like every

six months or so the Government will

1:10:221:10:30

-- promised they will build more

homes, and I being cynical?

I think

1:10:301:10:34

what they are promising now is

exactly what they promised in the

1:10:341:10:38

White Paper on housing, this is just

fleshing it out. It is the exact

1:10:381:10:44

same announcement. That said, what's

quite good about this, to some

1:10:441:10:48

extent I think the language is too

aggressive about councils and that

1:10:481:10:53

is what Labour is picking up on. For

a long time, politicians have

1:10:531:10:58

focused on things which are demand

side in the housing market because

1:10:581:11:04

it is sexier. Help to buy, right to

buy, and yet they can exacerbate the

1:11:041:11:10

problem because if anything while

helping a few people they are

1:11:101:11:14

pushing up prices potentially. What

they are doing here unapologetically

1:11:141:11:17

is focusing on the supply side and

that's what they need to do. It

1:11:171:11:22

isn't very sexy, it is not on every

front page today, the speech

1:11:221:11:26

tomorrow won't have as much of an

effect as the speech on Friday but

1:11:261:11:30

this is probably one of the biggest

crisis facing the country.

Probably

1:11:301:11:35

something voters care more about

than Brexit?

And the timing of this

1:11:351:11:41

is very interesting, coming up to

local elections in London Tories are

1:11:411:11:45

expected to do very badly. Sadiq

Khan's record on housing is

1:11:451:11:50

extremely questionable to say the

least and I think this is an area

1:11:501:11:54

where the Tory party senses it could

be more proactive.

Is there enough

1:11:541:11:59

oxygen in the room for people to

concentrate on housing for voters to

1:11:591:12:03

get the message or ministers to push

this through?

Voters have got the

1:12:031:12:10

message. Grandparents understand it

even if they don't want house

1:12:101:12:14

building near them because their

grandchildren cannot buy because

1:12:141:12:17

they cannot afford to in certain

parts of the country so everybody

1:12:171:12:22

agrees about the ens, we need more

housing, it is just another means. I

1:12:221:12:27

completely agree that right to buy

doesn't address the issue of more

1:12:271:12:32

housing. This does partly but I

think the cabinet needs a housing

1:12:321:12:36

minister in the Cabinet accountable

and to say right, we are going to

1:12:361:12:41

build this number through various

means and I am accountable to make

1:12:411:12:45

sure it happens. It needs that level

of focus.

At the same time as

1:12:451:12:51

Brexit, it should be housing?

Yes,

they have the right issue. There are

1:12:511:12:57

many issues, Brexit is sucking up to

much energy. There are tonnes of

1:12:571:13:02

shoes we should be focusing on but

this is one of them.

Excellent,

1:13:021:13:08

thank you for coming in.

1:13:081:13:10

That's all for today.

1:13:101:13:11

Join me again next Sunday

at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:111:13:14

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:141:13:21

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