25/02/2018 Sunday Politics London


25/02/2018

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LineFromTo

Morning everyone, I'm

Sarah Smith and and this

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is the Sunday Politics...

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Bringing you up to speed on all

the political comings and goings

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in Westminster and beyond.

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Coming up in today's programme:

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Having knocked Cabinet heads

together Theresa May

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prepares - finally -

to lay out her vision for Brexit.

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But can she keep her

whole party on side?

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We'll be speaking to

a former Tory leader.

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Waiting in the wings is this man.

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But can Jeremy Corbyn unite

the opposing forces in his own party

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and convince the electorate he'd do

a better job of Brexit?

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The forthcoming local elections

in England ought to give us

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a clue about the fortunes

of the two main parties.

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We'll be previewing these

crucial council contests.

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In London, the Government blames

the Mayor, the Mayor

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blames the Government...

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As funding and police numbers

fall, can the police

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really do more for less?

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And as usual, we've got three

Westminster insiders who will take

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us behind the headlines and tell us

what's really going on.

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Today I'm joined by Iain Dale,

Kate McCann and Steve Richards.

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Next month, Theresa May

will begin formal negotiations

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with her European counterparts

on what the future EU-UK

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relationship should look like.

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This week, she will lay

out her vision of life after Brexit

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and she'll declare that our "best

days really do lie ahead of us".

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EU leaders beg to differ though,

and have already taken

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some pre-emptive swipes.

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But, while the talk is likely

to get tough in Brussels,

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the key battles could be

played out closer to home.

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It's known as the Brexit war

committee, but the smiles suggested

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an outbreak of peace among

the Cabinet's big beasts.

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For now, at least.

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They'd arrived at Chequers,

the Prime Minister's country

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retreat, on Thursday afternoon,

to try and agree a common position

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for the next round of Brexit talks.

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Eight hours later, ministers

were apparently still smiling,

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having agreed on something called

ambitious managed divergences

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and future trade with the EU.

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One of those present

said the Prime Minister

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had played a blinder,

but will it be enough to hold

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the whole party together?

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Earlier in the week,

a letter from the pro-Brexit

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European reform group found its way

into the newspapers,

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politely reminding the Prime

Minister that when we leave,

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nothing but full regulatory autonomy

will be good enough.

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But it's Remain-minded Tories

who could throw a real

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spanner in the works.

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Conservative MP Anna Soubry

announced on Thursday she had...

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"Tabled a new amendment to the trade

bill to force the government to form

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a customs union with the EU".

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27 other EU countries also

need to be won over.

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Brexit Secretary David Davis

was in Vienna on Tuesday,

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colourfully describing what Brexit

will not look like.

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They fear that Brexit will lead

to an Anglo-Saxon race

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to the bottom, with Britain plunged

into a Mad Max style world borrowed

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from dystopian fiction.

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These fears about a race

to the bottom are based on nothing.

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But the EU are not convinced.

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European Council President Donald

Tusk arguing that the UK

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was still trying to

cherry pick its future

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relationship with the EU.

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I'm afraid that the UK position

today is based on pure illusion.

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Until now, Jeremy Corbyn

has played his Brexit

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cards close to his chest.

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He may begin to reveal his hand

in a major speech tomorrow and this

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week he unusually raised Brexit

at Prime Minister's Questions.

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This government isn't on the road

to Brexit, Mr Speaker,

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it's on the road to nowhere.

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Can I congratulate the right

honourable gentleman,

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because normally he stands up

every week and asks me

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to sign a blank cheque.

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And I know he likes cheques, but,

really, that is terribly...

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That was a reference to reports

that the Labour leader had held

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meetings with the former

Czechoslovakian spy in the 1980s.

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Mr Corbyn hit back at those reports

with a social media video,

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in which he said rather cryptically,

"Change is coming to

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the newspaper industry".

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Publishing these ridiculous smears

that have been refuted by Czech

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officials shows just how worried

the media bosses are at the prospect

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of a Labour government.

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They are right to be.

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Tory MP Ben Bradley had to apologise

to Mr Corbyn over a tweet

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about the allegations, saying...

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But it wasn't all Brexit

and brush passes.

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The Prime Minister began

the week announcing a review

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into higher education.

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We now have one of the most

expensive systems of university

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tuition in the world.

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Theresa May wants to demonstrate

her government isn't

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simply defined by Brexit,

but navigating the complications

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of leaving the EU is

an all consuming task.

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If she can avoid it

consuming her career, that

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could be her greatest achievement.

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Steve, Kate and Iain

were watching that with me.

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Let's chew over what has been

happening this week. People saying

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that meeting at Chequers, the Prime

Minister played a blinder and got

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the Cabinet to agree. Outside the

Cabinet, it looks like she is

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assaulted on all sides by

pro-Brexit, pro had Brexit Tory MPs,

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the EU, it's not as easy as all

that?

It is never going to be easy

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for a Prime Minister who hasn't got

a Parliamentary majority. She is

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very resilient. Whenever she's

knocked down, she bounces back

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again. I think she has had quite a

reasonable week this week, starting

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off on the front foot and tuition

fees and ending the week with the

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meeting at Chequers. I think a lot

of commentators thought it was going

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to be a disaster, that they would

agree on the way board. The proof in

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the pudding will be on what she says

in the speech on Friday. We have

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Jeremy Corbyn mandates and

effectively she has to up with

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probably quite a lot more detail

than she has done in the past. I

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think they have the basis for that

now.

Kate, we've talked a lot on

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this programme about the arguments

within the Cabinet but now it looks

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like the focus is now on the wider

Conservative Party. You have

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probably remain MPs like Anna Soubry

saying they want to stay in the

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customs union, a letter from pro

except MPs like Jacob Rees-Mogg

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saying they want full regulatory

divergence. Which group is likely to

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win the day?

I think what is most

interesting this week will be Jeremy

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Corbyn's speech on Monday. That

comes before Theresa May's speech on

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Friday. That will help tip those two

sites, as it were, and we will see

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what will happen with the customs

union. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to

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say he would like to stay in a

customs union that is likely to make

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the Tory MPs on the Tories I'd like

Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, who

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want to back and push for a customs

union feel like they have more

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control over that. Whether it is

likely not promote we are yet to

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see. If Labour is shifting its

customs union position that much,

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that gives Tory MPs a lot more

strength in the House of Commons

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because the government has already

pushed back a vote on the customs

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union because they are worried about

what is going happen.

Those pro

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remain Tories on the Labour Party

believe they have the Parliamentary

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arithmetic to force a defeat on the

government over the customs union,

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are they right about that?

Certainly

in theory they are right. There are

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enough Conservative MPs and if the

opposition vote for this, the

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government faces a defeat with

profound consequences. We will not

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know probably until the moment when

the vote takes place. It will be a

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moment of one of these great

Parliamentary dramas, where there

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will be huge pressure on Tory MPs

not to go along with this and say,

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you are in alliance with Jeremy

Corbyn and so on. We won't know

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until the vote but in theory they

have the numbers. It would be a game

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changer if this amendment was

carried.

This is fascinating. It

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means the power has gone to the

house of parliament and has left

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number ten and the Cabinet, Hilary

Benn described this as a backbencher

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's parliament because the government

doesn't have a majority. Is that

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where the authority lies now?

In

some ideas. I'm not sure if I agree

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about the Parliamentary arithmetic

because some will die with the

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Conservatives, and we will hear from

one later, Frank Field. There are a

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group of them. I wonder about the

numbers on the Tory benches, there

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is a hard-core group of about ten or

a dozen that you think might well

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support Anna Soubry's amendment but

I don't really see it going much

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beyond that. But you are right, it

will be on a bit of a knife edge. If

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it came to the government were

defeated on this, then we are in

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uncharted waters, because the

government could actually make it a

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vote of confidence. It would be very

unusual to do one on an amendment to

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a bill but it is possible, or they

could call a vote of confidence that

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would put Anna Soubry and all the

others in

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others in a bit a tricky position.

If they did vote against the

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government on a vote of confidence,

they would have to be deselected.

We

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will talk about that throughout the

programme.

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Listening to all that is the former

Conservative leader,

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and leading Brexit campaigner,

Iain Duncan Smith.

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Welcome to the programme. Do you

accept there is a significant chance

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the government could be defeated on

a customs union in the House of

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Commons question when you don't have

a majority there is a chance to be

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defeated on anything.

I love the way

the media looks at this cost would

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take a pace back, it's a government

that won the election and didn't get

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an overall majority so it means

almost anything anyone is upset

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about could cause a problem for the

government, fact of life. Brexit is

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just one, it's a very big issue but

one of those, there has been other

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issues and there will be on the

issue is following through.

It

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matters to you whether we are in a

customs union with the EU?

Lots of

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things deeply matter to me, beyond

Brexit. But yes. I think the key

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thing is not what I believe but the

Prime Minister has been pretty clear

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about this from the word go, way

before the election, during the

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election importantly and even

subsequently she has made it very

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clear we are taking back control,

leaving the customs union, single

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market, and at the same time making

sure we get outside of the remit of

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the court of justice. She has been

clear about this.

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Let's pick a bit of that. In her

Lancaster House speech she said she

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wanted us to have a customs

agreement with the EU, not a customs

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union but customs agreement. This

controversial amendment Anna Soubry

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another Superdome says they want an

agreement that enables the UK to be

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able to participate in a customs

union with the EU, is there space

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for that?

It depends what the detail

is. The government set it out quite

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rightly on having a proper free

trade arrang ement. You can describe

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a free-trade arrangement in all

different ways but a free-trade

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arrangement is about us having a

clear ability to sell-out goods into

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the European Union them to sell us

without artificial trade barriers

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that will require arrangements that

out customs arrangements. The big

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them to sell us without artificial

trade barriers and that will require

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arrangements that out customs

arrangements. The behind having a

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customs union and being outside a

free-trade arrangement is we are 90%

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of the graces in the global economy

in the next two years, we will be

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free to do that. If we are in a

customs union, you to make trade

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arrangements with America,

Australia, India, where ever we want

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to, where 90% of the growth is in

the global economy in the next two

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years, we will be free to do that.

If we are in a customs union, you

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agree do that and therefore we would

have to what the European Union to

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what the European certainly be

outvoted endlessly. This is about

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where does the power light and we

would almost certainly be outvoted

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endlessly. This is about where does

the with the rest of the world in a

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moment but exactly what you

describe, the free-trade arrangement

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with no tariffs with the EU

and the

freedom to make those deals, that is

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what the EU called cherry picking?

What they really called cherry

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picking is this arrangement we are

talking about now, a customs union.

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They have been pretty clear about

this. They said it is not

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acceptable. Let's look at it from

the European Union to make those

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agreements?

I want to get into the

detail on free-trade deals with the

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rest of the world in a moment but

exactly what you describe, the

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free-trade arrangement with no

tariffs with the EU and the freedom

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to make those deals, that is what

the EU called cherry picking?

What

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they really called cherry picking is

this arrangement we are talking

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about now, a customs union. They

have been pretty clear about this.

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They said it is not acceptable.

Let's look at it from the European

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Union's standpoint. We constantly

look at what the UK once. You use is

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certainly not going to agree going

into a customs union where we will

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then have over any future agreement,

so we will outvote all 27 because we

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that would depend on the agreement.

...

That would depend on the

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agreement. The EU wants would have

enormous power against them, they an

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agreement, we would have enormous

power against them, they won't agree

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because it is not in their interests

to do I think what is more in

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arrangement. There are lots of

countries that are already breaking

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ranks with the commission about

this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

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have to have a free-trade

arrangement.

They are not on that

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yet, they are still on the

implementation phase. When it comes

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to free trade, I am very, very

certain that they will want to make

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an arrangement with us because it is

in their interests, arguably more

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than us. , they want a free-trade

arrangement. There are lots of

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countries that are already breaking

ranks with the commission about

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this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

have to have a free-trade

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arrangement. They are not on that

yet, they are still on the

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implementation phase. When it comes

to free-trade, I am very, very

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certain that they will want to make

an arrangement with us because it is

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in their interests, arguably more

than us let's move on to trade with

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the rest of the world. Why do so

absolutely convinced that the

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ability to do with Australia, China,

the ones the EU has at the,

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different from the ones the EU has

at increasing our trade with these

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countries from inside the EU? Their

biggest

are so terribly important?

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Why can't we be increasing our trade

with these countries from inside the

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EU?

Their biggest free-trade we are

naturally, the UK, more than any

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other country in the European

country, arguably more than most in

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the world, a free-trade for free

trade the WTO has a ready said they

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love the idea of us coming back as a

full voting member because we will

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argue for free trade. By, global

free trade and services, which stop

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because the European Union has not

wanted to push the site at all.

Do

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so much more trade with China than

us from within the EU?

That is to do

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with what Germany says they want to

do and go and do it Germany do so

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much more trade with China than us

from within the EU? That is to do

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with what Germany says they want to

do and go and do it.

Being a member

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of the EU has being a member of the

EU be outside the that so why do we

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have to be outside you get rid of

artificial tarry

that is not

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parallel argument. By getting trade

arrangements you get rid of

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artificial and delays at the borders

that allows you to increase your

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trade. We want from where we are.

But at the same time, incoming stuff

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is just as important. The people who

will benefit most from a free-trade

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arrangement of the poorest in

society because the cost of food,

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footwear and clothing will almost

certainly our trade from where we

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are. But at the same time, incoming

stuff is just as important.

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You might as much larger and more

important market. The skill is not

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that important. The key thing is, do

you value a marketplace, is it worth

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doing business with? Financial

services is an important are great

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-- an important area you want to

strike agreements with. The UK's

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dominant in financial services and

you cannot get a free-trade

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agreement within the single market

at the moment. You cannot sell

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insurance in Germany without having

a company in Germany to sell it.

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They have never wanted to do

financial service is free trade. We

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will be in a much better state

globally. You have seen the increase

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in New Zealand's trade when they

went for free-trade and got rid of

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their trade barriers.

A dramatic

increase in no global position. The

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tragedy led to this and they reckon

a free-trade deal with America we

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did 0.02% to the UK's GDP.

I have a

bone to pick with the BBC. There has

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been a brilliant economic report are

independent, which has been given

0:16:250:16:30

very little coverage which is taken

apart the model that the Treasury

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and the government put together. For

example, dealing with this. The

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reason why you arrive at this, it

depends on what you assume to be the

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actual savings on the border. The

government has only assumed a 4%

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saving on getting rid of tariff

barriers. Almost every economist in

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the world agrees it is nearer to 20%

saving.

This study has been covered

0:16:500:16:55

on the BBC it was on the Daily

Politics on Friday. It assumes zero

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tariffs on absolutely everything. It

is an extremely optimistic forecast.

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It assumes a 10% tariff at the end

of the day, it assumes tariffs

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falling to an average of 10%, not

zero. If they went to zero it would

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improve it even more. I have read

this report backwards.

One of the

0:17:150:17:21

officers says that while there will

be benefits from free-trade deals,

0:17:210:17:24

over time it would be likely we

would mostly eliminate manufacturing

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in UK by the things that would be

worth it and it should not us.

That

0:17:280:17:33

was one of the original suggestions,

much earlier.

But he was one of the

0:17:330:17:37

authors of this report.

He was but

he has accepted this is not going to

0:17:370:17:41

be the case within this report.

They're assuming that the border

0:17:410:17:45

changes will mean less of a tariff

on the borders at average. That is

0:17:450:17:48

what happens in most other

free-trade arrangements. The point

0:17:480:17:52

I'm making is it has a massive

benefit to the UK for us to do this.

0:17:520:17:57

That is why going for a free-trade

agreement with the European Union is

0:17:570:18:00

the right way to go. We forget what

Europe itself once.

Labour is in a

0:18:000:18:08

complete mess about this. We will

talk to this about -- we will talk

0:18:080:18:12

to them about that.

They were in

favour of leaving the customs union

0:18:120:18:15

and the single market and Barry

Gardner said it was making a vassal

0:18:150:18:19

state if you stayed in the customs

union. We will ask Labour themselves

0:18:190:18:23

about that. Theresa May has made it

clear where out of the single market

0:18:230:18:27

and Customs union and I say to my

colleagues who want to change some

0:18:270:18:31

of this, just be very careful on

this one, because being invited into

0:18:310:18:36

a Labour Party tactical game which

will end up in real damage the

0:18:360:18:39

United Kingdom.

Iain Duncan Smith,

thank you very much for talking to

0:18:390:18:43

us.

0:18:430:18:45

So much for the Conservatives,

but what about Labour?

0:18:450:18:47

In 24 hours' time,

Jeremy Corbyn will give

0:18:470:18:49

a keynote speech on Brexit.

0:18:490:18:50

All the signs are that he will back

the UK staying permanently

0:18:500:18:53

in a customs union with the EU.

0:18:530:18:54

But over 80 senior Labour figures

have today urged Mr Corbyn to go

0:18:540:18:58

further and support staying

in the single market as well.

0:18:580:19:00

But how would that go down

with the millions of Labour

0:19:000:19:03

voters who backed Brexit?

0:19:030:19:04

Here's what the Shadow Brexit

Secretary, Keir Starmer,

0:19:040:19:06

said this morning.

0:19:060:19:07

Well, we have long championed

being in a customs union with the EU

0:19:070:19:10

and the benefits of that.

0:19:100:19:14

Obviously, it is the only way,

realistically, to get

0:19:140:19:16

tariff free access.

0:19:160:19:18

It is really important

for our manufacturing base

0:19:180:19:23

and nobody can answer the question

how you keep your commitment to no

0:19:230:19:26

hard border in Northern Ireland

without a customs union.

0:19:260:19:28

We have always said

that the benefits of the single

0:19:280:19:30

market must be there in the final

agreement and that is a really

0:19:300:19:33

important commitment

because in the end, however

0:19:330:19:35

you arrive at that, in whatever

the instrument or agreement it is,

0:19:350:19:38

the benefits have got to be there.

0:19:380:19:40

Labour is agreed on that end state.

0:19:400:19:41

There is obviously an argument

about how we get there.

0:19:410:19:44

To discuss this I'm joined by two

Labour MPs who fall on opposing

0:19:440:19:47

sides of the Brexit argument.

0:19:470:19:48

Frank Field campaigned to leave

the EU and Stella Creasy

0:19:480:19:50

is a supporter of the pro-European

group Open Britain.

0:19:500:19:53

Thank you both for coming on the

programme. Stella Creasy, you have

0:19:530:19:58

signed this letter to Jeremy Corbyn

to be asking not only to stay in the

0:19:580:20:02

customs union but also the single

market. If you're in both of them, I

0:20:020:20:07

really delivering on the referendum

Brexit result?

There are lots of

0:20:070:20:12

different combinations that still

see is leaving the European Union

0:20:120:20:15

but do what Labour people across

this country, and that is why there

0:20:150:20:19

is support across the country and

the party for this letter, which is

0:20:190:20:22

to protect the jobs and incomes. We

know that Brexit, any of the models,

0:20:220:20:28

I am horrified to your Iain Duncan

Smith dismissing the idea that

0:20:280:20:32

manufacturing may be at stake or the

numbers don't matter. It is a

0:20:320:20:36

massive hit on our economy. It is a

massive hit took peace in Northern

0:20:360:20:41

Ireland if we leave the customs

union. These are called labour

0:20:410:20:43

values and that is what we are

standing up for.

You're asking to

0:20:430:20:47

stay in the single market. The

problem with that is you thought an

0:20:470:20:51

election last year under a manifesto

which said that free movement will

0:20:510:20:56

end.

You cannot do both. I am in the

migration committee on the Council

0:20:560:21:00

of Europe. Lots of people are

willing to talk about how we make

0:21:000:21:04

freedom of movement work. They

recognise politicians have not got

0:21:040:21:07

it right across the continent. If we

are not fighting to stay in the

0:21:070:21:11

single market we cannot have that

conversation about what the reformed

0:21:110:21:14

freedom of movement might look like.

I think freedom of movement is an

0:21:140:21:18

important right for people in this

country. I do not want to have to

0:21:180:21:22

see the kids in Walthamstow

Birkenhead that their ability to

0:21:220:21:25

work for a company that has a base

outside the UK will be hampered by

0:21:250:21:28

decisions we've made. That puts them

in an austerity Britain and I do not

0:21:280:21:36

want to do that.

Frank Field, does

this sound like a Brexit you could

0:21:360:21:39

sell to any leave photo?

No, and you

know perfectly well we cannot sell

0:21:390:21:43

it. I am looking forward to what

Jeremy Corbyn says tomorrow because

0:21:430:21:48

you have hyped it up. On every vote

we have had Onuora before he came --

0:21:480:21:54

before he became leader, Jeremy

Corbyn and I were deeply suspicious

0:21:540:21:58

of this organisation which is

corrupt, it has never got its

0:21:580:22:02

accounts audited, it is bankrupt.

Whatever he says tomorrow he will

0:22:020:22:07

not be arguing to stay in the EU, he

will be arguing for the customs

0:22:070:22:11

union?

Please, let me finish. It is

deeply corrupt. It is bankrupt. It

0:22:110:22:19

has destabilised Europe with all

this pretence about it has brought

0:22:190:22:24

peace. Look what we have done to the

area around Russia. Given there are

0:22:240:22:30

number of states within Europe who

depend on our contribution, we

0:22:300:22:34

should be voting for a clear

decorate -- a clear declaration, we

0:22:340:22:39

want a free-trade area, and we have

money. What are you going to choose.

0:22:390:22:44

I think we should take the gloves

off in these negotiations and look

0:22:440:22:47

at the real power structure. They

need our money, and for reasons

0:22:470:22:52

which Stella Creasy has put forward,

we need access to a free-market

0:22:520:22:58

arrangement.

What is your problem

with Jeremy Corbyn saying that the

0:22:580:23:01

Labour policy will be too clearly

stay in a customs union?

Two things.

0:23:010:23:07

One, it goes against what we said at

the election. It goes against all

0:23:070:23:12

the scare tactics during the

campaign, all the major figures were

0:23:120:23:18

saying, you know, if you vote here,

you're leaving the customs union,

0:23:180:23:22

you're leaving the free market.

There was no question about what the

0:23:220:23:26

referendum was deciding. And the

politics of this is, are we going to

0:23:260:23:33

be run by a London agenda? I know

Stella Creasy has got other issues

0:23:330:23:37

that she reaches out across the

country, but this is essentially a

0:23:370:23:44

London agenda against Labour voters,

particularly in the North.

0:23:440:23:46

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

You have got the mayor of Liverpool

0:23:460:23:51

who signed this letter, the leader

of Newcastle Council.

You and I

0:23:510:23:55

would in the lobby fighting together

against this government's welfare

0:23:550:24:00

cuts.

£12 billion cuts.

That is

nothing to do with this. It

0:24:000:24:03

absolutely is. Even the bare minimal

model we are talking about would be

0:24:030:24:09

ahead on our economy and the

communities we represent. How can we

0:24:090:24:14

vote Forestieri the? How can you do

that to the voters, the People who

0:24:140:24:19

work in the Vauxhall plants in the

Wirral who are frightened they are

0:24:190:24:22

about to lose their jobs. How can

you do that to the People in

0:24:220:24:26

Northern Ireland?

Let me answer you,

please. We have been through the

0:24:260:24:31

courts. There is no problem about

the Good Friday Agreement being

0:24:310:24:33

challenged by this at all. We have

got time, I am happy to discuss it.

0:24:330:24:38

I think there are problems with the

Good Friday Agreement and a customs

0:24:380:24:42

union.

No, it will remain. If we

have time, I would love to discuss

0:24:420:24:48

that with you. About austerity, can

I answer that? We are net

0:24:480:24:54

contributor. We will have money to

be brought back. While some people

0:24:540:24:57

have signed the order leaders even

there, when you look at the

0:24:570:25:03

parliamentary arithmetic, Mrs May

almost hollowed out our vote in the

0:25:030:25:11

seats were only kept by a handful of

votes. These are seats which voted

0:25:110:25:15

very clearly to leave. That is the

act of faith. I know there are

0:25:150:25:20

problems about how do you give the

electorate the sovereignty to decide

0:25:200:25:24

an issue and then bring it back into

a representative parliamentary

0:25:240:25:28

system, but the vote was cleared to

leave. The bill is about leaving and

0:25:280:25:35

whether we support that or not and

if we do not support that, I think

0:25:350:25:38

Labour voters will draw their own

messages in the North.

Please do not

0:25:380:25:42

drive Boris's bars for the People of

those communities. You're saying

0:25:420:25:46

that somehow we will get money back.

All the evidence shows is that any

0:25:460:25:50

money you get back will be dwarfed

by what we will lose. You're talking

0:25:500:25:55

about £1 billion coming back.

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

0:25:550:26:02

You can talk across me all you like,

the numbers are there in the

0:26:020:26:07

government's on analysis. That is

what we have to front up to the

0:26:070:26:10

communities we represent.

Are you

going to write on the People's

0:26:100:26:16

decision to leave?

You're coming out

with all these things, we will stay

0:26:160:26:22

in a customs union, we will stay in

a single market, the decision was

0:26:220:26:26

quite clear to leave. In the north,

Labour voters voted very, very

0:26:260:26:32

clearly. You going to rat on them or

not? Never mind about buses and all

0:26:320:26:39

the rest of it.

It does matter. Let her answer. It

0:26:390:26:42

is about the evidence that we now

have. Democracy did not stop the day

0:26:420:26:47

after the referendum.

People have a

right to see the detail.

Of course

0:26:470:26:51

they do. Do you accept that the

government figures show clearly that

0:26:510:26:54

if we stay in the European economic

arrangement, which is out of the EU,

0:26:540:26:59

we are still going to take a 16 pelt

-- a £16 billion hit on our economy?

0:26:590:27:05

That worse anything you get back.

This letter is not just signed from

0:27:050:27:09

people across the country but people

across the trade union movement

0:27:090:27:12

because they because they know the

0:27:120:27:18

hard Brexit the government is

pushing for and why it matters

0:27:260:27:28

Jeremy Corbyn is fighting for the

customs union and single market

0:27:280:27:30

membership.

It means jobs and wages.

What we should be fighting forest

0:27:300:27:32

sector agreements with the European

Union. We want a free-trade area.

0:27:320:27:34

They have always opposed the

activities of the city. There is no

0:27:340:27:37

need to worry about the city. There

is a need to worry about

0:27:370:27:40

manufacturing and we will make

special arrangements with them. The

0:27:400:27:42

issue is clear, do we disguise the

fact by pretending we're going to

0:27:420:27:46

have a customs union or some other

arrangement which counters what the

0:27:460:27:52

clear declaration of northern Labour

voters actually said?

They have

0:27:520:27:57

changed their side. A third of

Labour voters did vote for leave.

0:27:570:28:01

You risk them abandoning the party.

This is not about rerunning the

0:28:010:28:05

referendum. It is about what kind of

deal do we get and is it in the best

0:28:050:28:10

interests of Britain. I believe

voters across this country have the

0:28:100:28:13

right to know what is likely to

happen.

0:28:130:28:15

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

Of course they have a right.

A right

0:28:150:28:24

to every bit of information going.

The key thing, we have had a

0:28:240:28:30

referendum and we rarely use

referendums for this reason, they

0:28:300:28:33

are difficult to implement. The

referendum decision was clear and

0:28:330:28:36

particularly clear in the North from

Labour voters. I want to keep faith

0:28:360:28:41

with them. I voted to come out. I

know it is harder for people who

0:28:410:28:45

voted to stay in. Are we going to

dress up a retreat, Agassi?

Then

0:28:450:28:53

there is a complicated decision for

you to make. We've been talking

0:28:530:28:55

about the amendment put forward by

Anna Soubry and others, an amendment

0:28:550:28:59

to the trade bill that will be voted

on in a few time. There is a

0:28:590:29:03

potential to defeat the government

is Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour

0:29:030:29:06

of a customs union and whips his MPs

to vote that way. If you had the

0:29:060:29:12

opportunity to win a vote against

the government and bring down

0:29:120:29:15

Theresa May, would you vote with her

to keep her in office or against?

0:29:150:29:22

That is not the choice and you know

that. That will be the choice on the

0:29:220:29:24

day. We will have a decision, do we

continue to implement the referendum

0:29:240:29:27

decision. I shall be voting for

that.

Even if that is voting to prop

0:29:270:29:33

up the government?

It is not about

propping up the government it is

0:29:330:29:37

about implementing a decision of the

People. The government has a

0:29:370:29:41

majority on this. The idea that Anna

Soubry is going to lead all these

0:29:410:29:45

people into the labour lobbies is

just fairy tales. But we will see on

0:29:450:29:49

the night. The government will win

comfortably and double figures on

0:29:490:29:53

this issue.

Frank Field, Stella

Creasy, we will have to leave it

0:29:530:29:57

there. Thank you very much.

0:29:570:30:00

The local elections in May will see

many seats in the big metropolitan

0:30:000:30:03

councils in England up for grabs,

and the Conservatives may need

0:30:030:30:05

to brace for a difficult night.

0:30:050:30:07

A YouGov poll predicts

Labour could seize several

0:30:070:30:09

Conservative councils in London,

including one the Tories

0:30:090:30:11

have never lost before.

0:30:110:30:12

Emma Vardy looks ahead.

0:30:120:30:16

Not since the swinging '60s has

anyone done better in local

0:30:160:30:19

elections than Labour

could be about to.

0:30:190:30:22

A recent YouGov poll is predicting

Labour will sweep London

0:30:220:30:26

with the best results for any

party since 1968.

0:30:260:30:34

One of the most enduring Tory

strongholds is here.

0:30:350:30:39

To this day, Westminster,

with its largely affluent

0:30:390:30:42

population of voters,

has never had a Labour-run

0:30:420:30:46

authority, but if the poll is to be

believed, that could now change.

0:30:460:30:52

This council has been

Conservative-controlled ever

0:30:520:30:56

since the borough was created

in the 1960s.

0:30:560:30:59

But if the swing was big enough

to turn this council red,

0:30:590:31:03

that would top off a very good

night for Labour.

0:31:030:31:05

The Conservatives are at position

where they could potentially

0:31:050:31:09

be left with just one,

maybe two councils in all of London.

0:31:090:31:13

I think that would be a bad night

for the Conservatives,

0:31:130:31:16

but it is possible.

0:31:160:31:19

They are having to fight to hang

on almost everywhere

0:31:190:31:23

they still have representation.

0:31:230:31:25

But away from London,

it could be a different story.

0:31:250:31:27

Birmingham City Council has been

controlled by Labour since 2012.

0:31:270:31:32

They hold around two-thirds

of the seats here, but there

0:31:320:31:36

is anger over a bin dispute that

lasted for months and left tons

0:31:360:31:40

of rubbish on the streets

uncollected, and resentment over

0:31:400:31:43

budget cuts that are

affecting local services.

0:31:430:31:47

It does not matter who is in because

there is nothing between them,

0:31:470:31:50

that is the problem,

because Birmingham is basically

0:31:500:31:53

screwed by central government,

who have reduced all of our grants.

0:31:530:31:55

There has been a lot of problems

with the bin collections.

0:31:550:31:58

Yes, there have.

0:31:580:31:59

Oh, yes.

0:31:590:32:01

The Labour run council

got the blame for that?

0:32:010:32:03

Yes, I would say so.

0:32:030:32:05

The more it dragged

on, certainly, yes.

0:32:050:32:07

This will be the first all-out

election for Birmingham City Council

0:32:070:32:11

since boundary changes,

so there are 101 seats

0:32:110:32:13

here all up for grabs.

0:32:130:32:17

It is a place Labour should do well,

but could the party be

0:32:170:32:20

punished over those bins?

0:32:200:32:22

Back in the summer, of course,

we had the bin strike.

0:32:220:32:24

It was not the city's

greatest moment in time.

0:32:240:32:27

When I became leader of the council,

I pledged we would resolve that

0:32:270:32:30

dispute, which we have now done.

0:32:300:32:32

We, the Labour Party

here in Birmingham, are committed

0:32:320:32:35

to maintaining weekly bin

collections going forward

0:32:350:32:37

for the next four years,

a commitment I've yet to hear

0:32:370:32:39

from either of the

other two parties.

0:32:390:32:44

Here in Birmingham, the council tax

has gone up over 20% in seven years,

0:32:440:32:47

but services have gone down,

and people are seeing rubbish

0:32:470:32:49

left on their streets,

and they feel it is time

0:32:490:32:52

for a change.

0:32:520:32:53

There are plenty of other

places who survive

0:32:530:32:55

on fortnightly bin collections.

0:32:550:32:56

With council budgets

being constrained, is that

0:32:560:32:57

not a sensible option?

0:32:570:33:01

In Birmingham, we are absolutely

clear that weekly bin

0:33:010:33:03

collections need to remain.

0:33:030:33:04

Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats

and the Greens remain much

0:33:040:33:09

stronger in local government

than they are in Parliament,

0:33:090:33:12

and in May, they will be

fighting to increase

0:33:120:33:14

their local authority presence.

0:33:140:33:17

While Ukip are likely to continue

to struggle to reverse

0:33:170:33:20

the party's decline.

0:33:200:33:23

But if the story of the night

is the biggest Labour

0:33:230:33:26

success since the '60s,

any high-profile defeats in Tory

0:33:260:33:28

strongholds could start to make some

Conservative MPs worry

0:33:280:33:31

about their constituencies ahead

of the next general election.

0:33:310:33:35

Steve, Kate and Iain

are still with me.

0:33:350:33:40

Let's pick up on the local

elections. Kate, should Theresa May

0:33:400:33:45

be deeply worried about this, what

she expected a bad night and what

0:33:450:33:50

might the consequences be?

No doubt

she will be worried but my favourite

0:33:500:33:53

thing is Everything is underlined by

the fact people care more about

0:33:530:33:56

things than other things that is

what politics comes down to, at the

0:33:560:33:59

end of the day. I think Theresa May

will be worried. -- it comes down

0:33:590:34:04

bins. It is a battle ground for

those parties. Places like Haringey,

0:34:040:34:11

if you see what has happened to

Labour in those areas, and how

0:34:110:34:15

powerful momentum and the left have

become in local politics, you see

0:34:150:34:18

how much it matters to Labour. I

think the Tories will be worried,

0:34:180:34:22

particularly about London. As the BT

said, Labour expect to do quite well

0:34:220:34:26

and that is not going to look very

good. Brandon Lewis, the new

0:34:260:34:30

chairman of the party, said last

week we expect big losses in London.

0:34:300:34:35

He is setting that already. I think

the Tory party is worried. In areas

0:34:350:34:38

like Birmingham and other areas

around the country, Brexit is likely

0:34:380:34:42

to be important and I think that's

why it comes back to labour being

0:34:420:34:45

modelled on Brexit. People vote with

their feet. If the Tories can win

0:34:450:34:49

back some seats like burning in

other places, it might not be a

0:34:490:34:52

massive all-out loss lost them on

the night.

Expectation management

0:34:520:34:57

already being Manoj

0:34:570:35:03

already being Manoj -- being

managed. Actual voters telling us

0:35:030:35:05

what they think. Did they have

consequences that Parliamentary

0:35:050:35:08

politics?

They could do this time.

It reminds me, Steve will remember

0:35:080:35:15

this, 1990 when the Tories did

disastrously in local elections.

0:35:150:35:19

Kenneth Baker went out on the

streets and exempted we kept once

0:35:190:35:27

loved. I don't think that will

happen this time. Kate is right,

0:35:270:35:30

Brandon Lewis, the Tory party

chairman has already started to

0:35:300:35:34

manage expectations. He generally

believe they are in for a drubbing,

0:35:340:35:41

particularly in London. These will

last up for grabs in 2014 when Ukip

0:35:410:35:46

are doing well. In the last year,

Ukip's vote has virtually

0:35:460:35:50

disappeared. So all three other

parties, their votes have gone up in

0:35:500:35:54

by-elections. It depends where that

vote goes, Wilbur Liberal Democrats

0:35:540:35:57

be able to hold onto the seats they

won in that year? -- Wilbur Liberal

0:35:570:36:04

Democrats be able to hold onto the

six? I think it will be a drumming

0:36:040:36:07

but I think it will be patchy. Andy

Street has been reasonably popular

0:36:070:36:14

in the West Midlands. If they do

that they will have a 1990 situation

0:36:140:36:18

and that is all they will talk

about.

Even if they lose

0:36:180:36:22

Westminster?

Probably.

How important

is it for Labour to do well, do they

0:36:220:36:26

seem to be be -- do they need to be

seen making advances, to keep up

0:36:260:36:34

with the idea they are on the Tory's

heels?

I think it is important for

0:36:340:36:40

that whatever happens I don't think

it will have a huge impact on the

0:36:400:36:43

national picture because I think it

will confirm the dynamics as they

0:36:430:36:46

already are, in other words Jeremy

Corbyn has been in a strong position

0:36:460:36:50

since the general election and that

will be confirmed. Theresa May has

0:36:500:36:54

been in a fragile position since the

general election and that will be

0:36:540:36:58

confirmed. But by that point Brexit

will be reaching or coming close to

0:36:580:37:02

one of its several climactic son I

think that will shape the national

0:37:020:37:07

picture. The local elections will be

really important for local

0:37:070:37:10

government, who inherit the

nightmarish budget. It won't change

0:37:100:37:15

the national picture very much.

Iain

said Ukip's vote has been falling

0:37:150:37:22

and they have had their troubles

recently as well. Important to see

0:37:220:37:25

where their vote goes and confirms

we are moving back to two party

0:37:250:37:29

politics maybe?

I think it does

nationally but locally it's a

0:37:290:37:34

different picture because the Ukip

vote tends to go on all kinds of

0:37:340:37:37

directions. It doesn't necessarily

go where you think it will. So the

0:37:370:37:42

Liberal Democrats and the Greens do

quite well at local elections,

0:37:420:37:45

whereas nationally they don't do

very well at all. I think sometimes

0:37:450:37:48

you do see people who would vote for

any other party going for any other

0:37:480:37:52

party and not necessarily the Tories

and Labour. I think it comes down to

0:37:520:37:56

how much this comes down to Brexit.

Do people care more about Brexit or

0:37:560:38:02

bins question mark in areas like

London, I think Brexit and bigger

0:38:020:38:07

national issues will have a bearing.

Brexit one way or another will help

0:38:070:38:12

with your bins?

London has become a

Labour city. Huge capital city with

0:38:120:38:20

millions and millions has become a

Labour stronghold. That is

0:38:200:38:23

significant for all kinds of

reasons. It has also become as

0:38:230:38:27

strong as it used to be in Scotland.

Even in 2010 in the general

0:38:270:38:32

election, London voted Labour by a

wide margin. That is quite a

0:38:320:38:37

significant development.

We need to

leave it there just now, coming back

0:38:370:38:41

to you later in the programme.

0:38:410:38:43

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:430:38:45

Still to come...

0:38:450:38:46

We speak to Former Northern Ireland

Secretary James Brokenshire

0:38:460:38:49

about returning to Parliament

after major surgery for cancer.

0:38:490:38:51

First though, its time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:510:38:54

Hello and welcome to the London part

of the show - I'm Jo Coburn.

0:39:020:39:06

Joining me for the duration,

Karen Buck, Labour MP

0:39:060:39:10

for Westminster North,

and Andrew Rosindell,

0:39:100:39:11

Conservative MP for Romford.

0:39:110:39:12

Welcome to you both.

0:39:120:39:15

Now I want to start with the speech

the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn gave

0:39:150:39:19

this week, in which he said that

if he became Prime Minister

0:39:190:39:22

he would take on the City of London,

saying finance should be

0:39:220:39:25

"the servant of industry,

not the masters of us all".

0:39:250:39:28

Karen Buck, is it wise for Labour

to use such provocative language

0:39:280:39:33

towards a sector that employees

350,000 people in London?

0:39:330:39:38

I think that absolutely we,

and I feel very strongly

0:39:380:39:42

that the banking industry,

the finance industry, is essential

0:39:420:39:44

to London's economy and essential

to the national economy.

0:39:440:39:49

So I very much support the need,

and the need in EU negotiations,

0:39:490:39:52

to have a healthy finance industry.

0:39:520:39:54

But I don't think it's

controversial, either,

0:39:540:39:57

to say that the British economy has

been too heavily balanced

0:39:570:40:00

towards the finance sector

and we need to rebalance that.

0:40:000:40:04

And even now, when we are finally

beginning to emerge ten years

0:40:040:40:08

after the banking crisis,

there's still a number of issues

0:40:080:40:10

in the banking industry that

need to be resolved.

0:40:100:40:12

But Jeremy Corbyn claimed the city

had undue influence over

0:40:120:40:14

over politics which was

pernicious and undemocratic.

0:40:140:40:16

Is he right?

0:40:160:40:17

Well, I wouldn't use those words.

0:40:170:40:21

I mean, I don't always have

to use all of those words,

0:40:210:40:24

but I think it's absolutely right

that the finance industry doesn't

0:40:240:40:27

always, hasn't always had

the long-term investment interests

0:40:270:40:30

of the wider British economy,

particularly in manufacturing,

0:40:300:40:32

that we need to see.

0:40:320:40:34

That's something that

George Osborne and David Cameron

0:40:340:40:37

were saying as well,

so what ever the words,

0:40:370:40:39

I think the issue about the British

economy and making sure finance

0:40:390:40:44

is a servant of that is

perfectly reasonable.

0:40:440:40:47

Andrew Rosindell, the Tories now can

hardly claim to be a friend

0:40:470:40:52

of the city because of the fears

over passporting rights being lost

0:40:520:40:55

in the City of London

and some bankers have said

0:40:550:40:58

that they will move staff

and operations if there are any

0:40:580:41:01

risks to that in the future.

0:41:010:41:03

Well, we've heard all this

for a long time and no real evidence

0:41:030:41:07

that there is any substantial move

away from the city.

0:41:070:41:10

Can you guarantee things

like passporting rights?

0:41:100:41:11

There's no guarantee of anything,

because the negotiations

0:41:110:41:13

haven't been completed.

0:41:130:41:16

The reality is, though,

that the European countries

0:41:160:41:18

need the City of London

for their own purposes as well.

0:41:180:41:24

So I don't see they're

going to somehow punish

0:41:240:41:26

the City of London.

0:41:260:41:27

I think the City of London

is actually getting more

0:41:270:41:30

worried about the prospect

of a Jeremy Corbyn government,

0:41:300:41:32

and how that would undermine our

financial services industry.

0:41:320:41:35

Right, but would you say that

actually there's too much

0:41:350:41:37

deregulation in the past,

supported by your government and

0:41:370:41:40

also the previous Labour government?

0:41:400:41:41

I think both governments have

deregulated, certainly the eye

0:41:410:41:43

was taken off the ball,

which led to some of the problems

0:41:430:41:46

we faced ten years ago.

0:41:460:41:47

And you backed that?

0:41:470:41:48

Well, no party can say

they are innocent when it comes

0:41:480:41:54

to ensuring that that situation

was dealt with at the time.

0:41:540:41:57

There's no doubt about that.

0:41:570:41:59

But let's be honest about it,

without the City of London,

0:41:590:42:02

the income that brings

into our economy is huge.

0:42:020:42:04

The jobs it creates,

and the City of London effectively

0:42:040:42:06

funds the entire National Health

Service.

0:42:060:42:09

So any policies that undermine

the strength of the City of London

0:42:090:42:13

will be cutting off our nose

to spite our face.

0:42:130:42:15

Thank you.

0:42:150:42:16

Now, there's going to be a major

reform of local policing in London.

0:42:160:42:19

The main change will see the merger

of 32 borough commands

0:42:190:42:22

into 12 larger units.

0:42:220:42:24

Police officer numbers will likely

also drop to 30,000 by April.

0:42:240:42:28

So what will all this mean for day

to day policing in London?

0:42:280:42:31

Bhavani Vadde reports.

0:42:310:42:34

These two young men were stabbed

to death in Camden within the space

0:42:340:42:37

of hours on Tuesday night.

0:42:370:42:42

Rising knife crime is something

the Metropolitan Police has

0:42:420:42:45

to tackle in the face

of severe financial pressures.

0:42:450:42:49

70% of the Force's funding

is from central government,

0:42:490:42:51

with City Hall responsible

for about 20%.

0:42:510:42:56

The Home Office grant

has remained the same,

0:42:560:42:59

at around £1.9 billion

in the past few years.

0:42:590:43:05

The mayor says that represents

funding cuts in real terms,

0:43:050:43:07

so to help plug the shortfall,

the Met is making major

0:43:070:43:10

changes to local policing.

0:43:100:43:11

The current 32 borough commands,

where each council area

0:43:110:43:16

has its own police team,

will be merged to 12 command units,

0:43:160:43:19

meaning a loss of 1500 jobs.

0:43:190:43:23

And Londoners will see even

fewer police officers.

0:43:230:43:27

The Met expects numbers to drop

below 30,000 by April,

0:43:270:43:31

and that's the first time that's

happened since 2003.

0:43:310:43:34

Officer numbers could fall even

further, to around 27,000, by 2021.

0:43:340:43:37

So what impact will all this have

on policing the capital?

0:43:370:43:43

I think we're not at breaking point

yet, but if we carry in the way that

0:43:430:43:47

they're talking about,

I think within the next 18-20 months

0:43:470:43:55

the problems will be that we can't

cope with incidents that are put

0:44:010:44:04

in front of us.

0:44:040:44:05

If we had, for instance,

what we had last year,

0:44:050:44:07

with London Bridge,

Westminster Bridge,

0:44:070:44:09

Grenfell Tower, Finsbury Park -

all these incidents happening one

0:44:090:44:12

after the other throughout

the course of the year,

0:44:120:44:13

at some stage my colleagues are just

going to be drained and not be

0:44:130:44:17

able to deal with it.

0:44:170:44:18

On the same day as those murders

in Camden, we were with officers

0:44:180:44:21

searching for hidden knives

in the neighbouring

0:44:210:44:23

borough of Islington.

0:44:230:44:24

The policing operations of Camden

and Islington were brought

0:44:240:44:27

together to test the idea

of merging borough commands.

0:44:270:44:28

Jessica Learmond-Criqui is the chair

of a safer neighbourhood

0:44:280:44:30

panel in that pilot area.

0:44:300:44:32

The impact of the merger

has been quite stark.

0:44:320:44:34

Those who suffer anti-social

crime, low-level crime

0:44:340:44:36

know they are not safe.

0:44:360:44:39

Those are areas where the Met of not

bothering to investigate,

0:44:390:44:43

they are not bothering to mount

investigations, they just simply

0:44:430:44:47

don't have the manpower,

and that is a direct result

0:44:470:44:52

of the pressure that they have

through the cost cuts they have

0:44:520:44:54

to make, because of the underfunding

by government and by the mayor.

0:44:540:44:57

It's a disaster for London.

0:44:570:44:59

The Force needs to save £325 million

by 2022 and has already cut

0:44:590:45:04

£600 million from budgets in recent

years, resulting in the loss

0:45:040:45:07

of police officers and stations.

0:45:070:45:15

This is highly challenging.

0:45:150:45:16

The reduction in numbers,

the change in the pattern of demand,

0:45:160:45:19

the current risk around terror

and so on is undoubtably,

0:45:190:45:22

it's a huge challenge

for the Met at the moment,

0:45:220:45:25

and coupled with the financial

challenge, it means we have to think

0:45:250:45:28

about doing some things differently.

0:45:280:45:29

Our job is to make sure we are best

able to protect London,

0:45:290:45:32

both from the large-scale events

and from the local needs,

0:45:320:45:34

and that's what we're doing

with this reorganisation.

0:45:340:45:39

This week, Sadiq Khan committed

an extra £110 million for the Met

0:45:390:45:42

in the next financial year.

0:45:420:45:48

He claims this means

City Hall is paying a greater

0:45:480:45:50

percentage of the Met's budget

than ever before.

0:45:500:45:53

We hope that this will future proof

the Metropolitan Police Service

0:45:530:45:56

for the coming years,

to enable them to deliver a better

0:45:560:45:58

service, with less resources.

0:45:580:46:00

In a statement,

the Home Office said...

0:46:000:46:02

The mergers will be rolled out

across London over the next year,

0:46:140:46:20

so will the Met be able

to do more with less?

0:46:200:46:24

Well, I'm joined by Liberal Democrat

peer Lord Brian Paddick, a former

0:46:240:46:27

Deputy Assistant Commissioner

at the Met, who was once responsible

0:46:270:46:30

for territorial policing

across London's boroughs.

0:46:300:46:32

Welcome to the programme.

0:46:320:46:33

Thank you.

0:46:330:46:36

Brian, as a former borough

commander, how would you have felt

0:46:360:46:39

taking over more than one borough

under your control?

0:46:390:46:42

Well, it's extremely challenging.

0:46:420:46:43

So, for example, they're

going to merge Sutton,

0:46:430:46:45

Bromley and Croydon.

0:46:450:46:49

Sutton is Liberal Democrat, Bromley

is Conservative, Croydon is Labour.

0:46:490:46:57

Potentially different priorities

at each different local authority.

0:46:570:47:00

How as one borough commander can

you manage those different demands?

0:47:000:47:05

But the politics aside, could you do

it physically and practically?

0:47:050:47:07

Well, when I was the borough

commander for Lambeth,

0:47:070:47:12

I struggled to be visible and to be

an effective leader just with one

0:47:120:47:15

borough, let alone over that

enormous geographic area.

0:47:150:47:19

Right, but for the people

who are being served

0:47:190:47:25

by the Metropolitan Police,

how will merging commands

0:47:250:47:27

affect your ability to do your job?

0:47:270:47:29

Well, I think officers,

because they are closing police

0:47:290:47:31

stations, they are closing places

from which officers deployed,

0:47:310:47:36

stations, they are closing places

from which officers are deployed,

0:47:360:47:39

officers are going to have to travel

longer distances to get

0:47:390:47:42

to the places where

they do their policing,

0:47:420:47:43

whether it is reporting

a crime or patrolling.

0:47:430:47:46

So they're going to waste an awful

amount, a lot of time travelling

0:47:460:47:50

from one place to another.

0:47:500:47:52

Time which they should be spending

either visible on the street

0:47:520:47:56

or investigating crime

or caring for victims.

0:47:560:47:57

Andrew Rosindell, do you accept that

police will no longer be as visible

0:47:570:48:00

as they have been if you merge

different are commands?

0:48:000:48:02

Oh, absolutely.

0:48:020:48:03

It's a catastrophe.

0:48:030:48:04

What Sadiq Khan is doing to boroughs

like Havering, for instance,

0:48:040:48:07

he's taking police off the streets

in my constituency and

0:48:070:48:09

sending them to Barking

and Dagenham, into Redbridge.

0:48:090:48:12

The police don't know those

areas from Havering,

0:48:120:48:15

they are higher crime,

so boroughs like Havering

0:48:150:48:18

are going to really suffer

through this policy.

0:48:180:48:20

But is that central

government's fault?

0:48:200:48:24

City Hall says since 2010-11

the Met's general grant funding

0:48:240:48:26

from the government has fallen

by more than £700 billion,

0:48:260:48:28

or nearly 40% in real terms.

0:48:280:48:30

Why aren't you making

representations to

0:48:300:48:31

Theresa May's government?

0:48:310:48:32

There's more funding needed

across-the-board, I accept that.

0:48:320:48:35

Right.

0:48:350:48:35

But the Mayor of London has

the power to increase the precept.

0:48:350:48:38

He's got reserves that he could use

that he's refusing to use.

0:48:380:48:41

But he has given extra

money, hasn't he?

0:48:410:48:43

And the government are giving him

more money this year,

0:48:430:48:45

so he has to be held to account

for what he's doing to boroughs

0:48:450:48:49

like Havering, which are hugely

harmed by his policies.

0:48:490:48:51

Do you support the idea

of merging borough commands?

0:48:510:48:54

I would rather not be

faced with any of these

0:48:540:48:57

pressures that we are dealing

with as a consequence of the cuts

0:48:570:48:59

in government grants.

0:48:590:49:00

It is up to Sadiq Khan how

he spends his money?

0:49:000:49:05

Yes, and what the mayor is doing,

and I have considerable sympathy

0:49:050:49:08

with this, is looking at ways

in which he can be sure that

0:49:080:49:11

when you have massive cuts

to the amount that you're able

0:49:110:49:14

to spend, that you would have it

spent on frontline policing,

0:49:140:49:17

rather than the management command

structures and indeed some

0:49:170:49:20

of the police stations.

0:49:200:49:23

In an ideal world we would not be

dealing with the fact that we have

0:49:230:49:27

lost £700 million and another

£350 million to come,

0:49:270:49:29

but that is the world we are in.

0:49:290:49:31

Who do you think is responsible

for funding cuts facing the Met?

0:49:310:49:33

70% of the budget for the Met comes

from central government.

0:49:330:49:36

Central government is not increasing

the amount given to the Met

0:49:360:49:39

in line with inflation,

therefore there is a real terms

0:49:390:49:41

cut in terms of funding

from central government.

0:49:410:49:46

It is not right to blame Sadiq Khan

for the merger of these boroughs.

0:49:460:49:49

That is an operational decision that

has been made by senior officers

0:49:490:49:52

in the Metropolitan Police Service

in response to this significant cut

0:49:520:49:54

in budget from central government.

0:49:540:49:59

Right, but actually the mayor has

said that the changes

0:49:590:50:01

will offer better and more

integrated local policing.

0:50:010:50:04

On the one hand he is blaming

central government in the way

0:50:040:50:06

that you have just done,

for reducing funding,

0:50:060:50:09

and on the other hand,

he saying that by merging these

0:50:090:50:11

borough commands there

will be a more integrated

0:50:110:50:13

local police service,

is that not correct?

0:50:130:50:15

If you think you have got one

borough commander now in charge

0:50:150:50:18

of three boroughs instead

of in charge of one,

0:50:180:50:21

you can say there's going to be

integrated leadership,

0:50:210:50:23

but the fact is, there are not

enough police officers

0:50:230:50:27

to be able to do the job,

they will be spread more thinly,

0:50:270:50:32

they will have to travel longer

distances, the public will see less

0:50:320:50:35

police officers, there will be less

time to investigate crime.

0:50:350:50:37

What would your solution be?

0:50:370:50:39

There has to be an increase

in the amount of money provided

0:50:390:50:42

by central government which is why

the Liberal Democrats at the last

0:50:420:50:44

general election pledged an extra

£1.2 billion for policing,

0:50:440:50:47

more than any other party.

0:50:470:50:50

Right, and you were hurt on this

issue, the Conservatives,

0:50:500:50:52

in the general election.

0:50:520:50:54

Do you accept that more money has

to be found or do you think this

0:50:540:50:57

is a case of the police always

asking for funds?

0:50:570:51:00

I do, I agree with Brian,

there does need to be more funding

0:51:000:51:03

from central government

but the mayor needs to do a lot

0:51:030:51:05

more than he is doing,

and it needs to be fairly resourced,

0:51:050:51:11

so outer London boroughs simply get

a raw deal from this.

0:51:110:51:14

You know as well as I do that outer

London is effectively funding inner

0:51:140:51:18

London and areas like Havering

are not getting the resources

0:51:180:51:21

we need to fight crime.

0:51:210:51:23

We are seeing a massive increase

in crime but we do not

0:51:230:51:26

have the resources to deal with it.

0:51:260:51:29

It is not really a competition.

0:51:290:51:30

We all need additional resources.

0:51:300:51:32

But in Westminster, we have lost

a third of our police since 2011

0:51:320:51:36

so there is a real pressure on inner

London, and what we need is to make

0:51:360:51:39

sure that whatever scarce

resources are available,

0:51:390:51:43

they are going on the frontline,

to the safer neighbourhood police

0:51:430:51:46

and the response team so we can give

some visible policing to people,

0:51:460:51:52

rather than spending more

on command structures.

0:51:520:51:55

I would rather not have those

choices but if that is the choice,

0:51:550:51:57

let's put money on the frontline.

0:51:570:52:01

Do you accept as a result of this

move to merge borough commands

0:52:010:52:04

and because of the reduction

in funding, the deputy assistant

0:52:040:52:06

commissioner in that film implied

something has to give.

0:52:060:52:09

Do you think it will happen at that

low level, burglary,

0:52:090:52:12

antisocial behaviour,

they just will not be investigated.

0:52:120:52:14

The truth is, under Sadiq,

crime has risen dramatically,

0:52:140:52:16

especially violent crime

and that is really

0:52:160:52:18

frightening people.

0:52:180:52:19

That was not my question.

0:52:190:52:24

Is something going to have to give

in terms of what the police

0:52:240:52:27

service is able to do?

0:52:270:52:28

You're right, to deal

with the violent crime,

0:52:280:52:30

which is what people are worried

about, what will have to give

0:52:300:52:34

is the low-level crime,

but we all know that low-level crime

0:52:340:52:36

leads to worse crime.

0:52:360:52:37

What we have seen, for example,

in Norfolk, at one stage,

0:52:370:52:40

was that police officers tend

to gravitate towards the cities,

0:52:400:52:42

to Norwich, leaving the rural areas

denuded of police officers

0:52:420:52:44

to the extent that government had

to step in and give more

0:52:440:52:47

money for rural policing.

0:52:470:52:50

There is a real danger,

Bromley, Croydon, Sutton...

0:52:500:52:52

The outer boroughs.

0:52:520:52:55

That officers will gravitate

towards Croydon because that is

0:52:550:52:57

where the highest crime rate is.

0:52:570:52:58

And Havering towards

Redbridge and Barking.

0:52:580:53:00

Do you think Londoners

are being put at risk by this

0:53:000:53:03

policy of Sadiq Khan?

0:53:030:53:05

If the money available

is going on to frontline policing,

0:53:050:53:07

I do not see why that should

be the case.

0:53:070:53:10

What we have seen is that

in the pilot combined areas,

0:53:100:53:12

there was an increase in response

times, response times improved.

0:53:120:53:18

In that respect, absolutely

it should not do it.

0:53:180:53:21

If there has been an increase

in response times, surely that has

0:53:210:53:25

been a positive out of this,

even though you say it should not be

0:53:250:53:28

a decision that had to be made

as a result of funding?

0:53:280:53:31

I think people are worried

about whether these command

0:53:310:53:33

structures should merge.

0:53:330:53:38

There is an argument that says,

we would really much rather

0:53:380:53:40

have localised command,

but what the police are saying to us

0:53:400:53:43

is that they will get some advantage

out of being able to pool

0:53:430:53:46

the resources that are available

in terms of resource policing.

0:53:460:53:48

I have got to correct you again.

0:53:480:53:51

It is not Sadiq Khan's

policy to merge boroughs.

0:53:510:53:53

It is the Metropolitan Police

Service's response to reduction

0:53:530:53:55

in the amount of money

they are getting.

0:53:550:53:58

That is what Sadiq Khan

says, that is what the

0:53:580:54:00

Metropolitan Police says.

0:54:000:54:01

But he supports it?

0:54:010:54:03

He has no choice.

0:54:030:54:05

He has no operational

control of policing.

0:54:050:54:07

It is an operational policing

decision to merge boroughs,

0:54:070:54:10

that is what the commissioner has

decided to do, Sadiq Khan

0:54:100:54:13

has to accept that.

0:54:130:54:14

Brian Paddick, thank you.

0:54:140:54:18

The NHS is something

of a battleground in the Brexit

0:54:180:54:21

debate, with Leavers promising more

money for the NHS, while Remainers

0:54:210:54:24

say Brexit threatens skilled

workers the NHS depends on.

0:54:240:54:27

That applies especially

to nurses in London,

0:54:270:54:31

as 10% of the capital's nurses

are from the EU, double

0:54:310:54:34

the proportion in the

rest of the country.

0:54:340:54:36

This week the chair

of the London Assembly's health

0:54:360:54:38

committee called on the mayor

and the government to offer them

0:54:380:54:40

a "cast-iron guarantee".

0:54:400:54:43

There are 5,000 nurses

from the European Union

0:54:430:54:45

working in London.

0:54:450:54:47

We know that they are very concerned

about what is happening, and I know

0:54:470:54:54

that because of the impact

of Brexit, less nurses are applying.

0:54:540:54:57

For example, last year,

we had 90% less residents of the EU

0:54:570:55:00

applying to work in this

country than beforehand.

0:55:000:55:04

We have written to the mayor,

this is the fourth time we've

0:55:040:55:06

written to the mayor about this,

that the mayor should put

0:55:060:55:09

pressure on the government,

that all those nurses,

0:55:090:55:11

particularly in the NHS,

who are working, should be given

0:55:110:55:13

a guarantee that their future

is safe here.

0:55:130:55:17

What they have said so far

is that they have an agreement

0:55:170:55:20

in principle that people working

in this country should be all right

0:55:200:55:23

up to 29th March 2019.

0:55:230:55:24

That is not good enough.

0:55:240:55:26

In principle is not

the same as a robust

0:55:260:55:29

guarantee of their future

and people need certainty.

0:55:290:55:34

Here in the studio, I'm

joined by Bernell Bussue

0:55:340:55:37

from the Royal College of Nursing,

and Alessandro Borca who is a nurse,

0:55:370:55:40

originally from Italy.

0:55:400:55:41

Welcome to both of you.

0:55:410:55:43

First of all, what do

you think is causing this

0:55:430:55:45

nursing shortage in London?

0:55:450:55:49

We have a general shortage

across London, over 7,000 vacancies,

0:55:490:55:53

of EU nationals, and we have got

14,000 vacancies across all

0:55:530:56:00

of London, so one in six

of our nursing posts

0:56:000:56:02

are vacant in London.

0:56:020:56:05

And that is not helped

by the uncertainties

0:56:050:56:07

for our EU colleagues

as to whether they are going

0:56:070:56:14

to have a long-term future

in the NHS in the UK.

0:56:140:56:18

You say it is not helped

by that uncertainty.

0:56:180:56:20

What is the underlying reason,

the other broader reason

0:56:200:56:22

for this nursing shortage?

0:56:220:56:24

It is a complex issue

and something that has been

0:56:240:56:26

going on over a number of years.

0:56:260:56:31

I think that we are facing

the results of poor

0:56:310:56:34

planning over a long period

of time around workforce.

0:56:340:56:42

We have also got the situation

that there has been resources

0:56:420:56:45

taken out of the NHS,

and on top of that, we have got

0:56:450:56:48

reducing numbers of people who can

come into the NHS from outside.

0:56:480:56:56

You're someone who came

from Italy to work here,

0:56:580:57:00

from the EU, as a nurse.

0:57:000:57:03

What are your concerns now,

bearing in mind the government has

0:57:030:57:06

said that the rights of EU citizens

who have settled and are working

0:57:060:57:09

in this country will be maintained?

0:57:090:57:17

Yes, of course, but the situation

now is getting worse than it

0:57:220:57:25

has and I have already seen some

changes in my job.

0:57:250:57:28

As a result of Brexit coming down,

or a result of general government

0:57:280:57:31

policy towards the NHS?

0:57:310:57:32

As a result of Brexit

and a vote in the referendum.

0:57:320:57:36

Why, what changes?

0:57:360:57:38

Because obviously people

that came from...

0:57:380:57:41

I am not surprised that

lots of my colleagues,

0:57:410:57:46

they want to come back

to their previous original country.

0:57:460:57:49

They came here to have a better

future, to have a better life,

0:57:490:57:53

and to contribute to this country,

and now with this uncertainty,

0:57:530:57:57

obviously, there is something

that the government

0:57:570:58:00

should be addressing.

0:58:000:58:04

And are you considering

going back to Italy?

0:58:040:58:08

Well, I think that is something that

I do not know, because obviously,

0:58:080:58:11

I want to be entitled

to remain, next year.

0:58:110:58:19

Andrew, can the country really

afford to lose nurses who have come

0:58:220:58:24

from the EU originally?

0:58:240:58:30

No, but nobody is suggesting

that we want to lose any NHS workers

0:58:300:58:34

who come from the EU or any other

country, there is no reason why

0:58:340:58:36

anyone should be afraid of that.

0:58:360:58:39

Can you give a cast iron guarantee?

0:58:390:58:41

Any EU citizen who is here

will have guaranteed rights,

0:58:410:58:44

the right to remain,

there is no issue.

0:58:440:58:46

All that will happen

is in the future, if there

0:58:460:58:50

are new NHS workers wanting to work

in the UK, whether they are from

0:58:500:58:54

the EU or the Caribbean,

or the Philippines or India,

0:58:540:58:57

it does not matter where they come

from, they will be great workers

0:58:570:59:00

and they will get a work permit

and be welcomed.

0:59:000:59:07

Does that reassure you,

if you have got that

0:59:070:59:09

promise from a politician,

0:59:090:59:10

from the governing party

that your rights will be guaranteed,

0:59:100:59:13

will that make you consider staying?

0:59:130:59:15

Well, there is a lot

of discussion about Brexit

0:59:150:59:18

and what will be in the future,

but it is something we will see.

0:59:180:59:24

It has made you nervous?

0:59:240:59:25

Yes.

0:59:250:59:27

Is the problem, Andrew Rosindell,

the rhetoric, some of the language?

0:59:270:59:30

You are right to say that those

rights are being guaranteed,

0:59:300:59:34

that is what the government has said

and Labour supports that

0:59:340:59:36

but in the end, people do not trust

what politicians are saying

0:59:360:59:39

about it, because of everything that

has been said during the campaign?

0:59:390:59:46

We have to work with reality

and I say to Alessandro,

0:59:460:59:49

you do fantastic work for everybody

in the National Health Service.

0:59:490:59:51

We want everyone to stay,

there are jobs here for you,

0:59:510:59:55

and you have guaranteed rights.

0:59:550:59:55

So whatever you read in the media,

whatever politicians may say,

0:59:550:59:58

in the NHS, we value the work that

foreign workers bring

0:59:581:00:01

to our National Health Service,

and that will continue,

1:00:011:00:04

whoever is in power,

and your rights will be guaranteed.

1:00:041:00:09

It is not just about

Brexit and uncertainty,

1:00:091:00:13

because as we have stated,

people's rights are guaranteed,

1:00:131:00:15

certainly those up to March 2019.

1:00:151:00:19

What about the broader issues

affecting nursing that is it is just

1:00:191:00:22

no longer as attractive a profession

to go into because of a lack

1:00:221:00:25

of funding and training?

1:00:251:00:26

I think that is right

and it is important to stress that

1:00:261:00:30

however much there is a guarantee

for the pre-March 2019 people,

1:00:301:00:34

there is a lot of background

scepticism about the process

1:00:341:00:36

and the background noise

in which people are making that

1:00:361:00:40

decision and we are seeing this very

clearly, not just in nursing,

1:00:401:00:44

but in the recent figures that show

what is happening to EU nationals

1:00:441:00:48

coming to this country

to work more generally.

1:00:481:00:51

Then there is, as you say,

the wider issue, the pressure

1:00:511:00:54

on the health service,

which is in the middle

1:00:541:00:56

of its biggest financial squeeze

since it was set up,

1:00:561:00:58

but crucially, the failure

to plan for the workforce,

1:00:581:01:01

and the introduction

of the nurse bursaries.

1:01:011:01:04

We were promised when the nursing

bursary system was abolished

1:01:041:01:07

that there would be

10,000 more applicants.

1:01:071:01:11

In fact, there has been

a 23% fall in applicants.

1:01:111:01:14

Briefly, would that make

a big difference in terms

1:01:141:01:17

of nursing bursaries?

1:01:171:01:17

Absolutely, it is a 33%

drop-off that we've seen

1:01:171:01:19

since the bursary was withdrawn.

1:01:191:01:24

We have real concerns

about the future of nursing,

1:01:241:01:27

because anything that impacts

and creates a reduction in nursing

1:01:271:01:31

creates problems around safe

and effective delivery of care,

1:01:311:01:36

and so we are really concerned

about some of the issues around pay,

1:01:361:01:39

and the consequences of Brexit etc.

1:01:391:01:44

All right, thank you both very much.

1:01:441:01:46

That's all we have time for, and

thank you to my politicians, too.

1:01:461:01:49

With that, back to Sarah.

1:01:491:01:52

Welcome back.

1:02:001:02:02

Now, he was the Northern Ireland

Secretary at a crucial time

1:02:021:02:05

in UK-Ireland relations.

1:02:051:02:06

But late last year,

James Brokenshire realised

1:02:061:02:10

he had a health problem,

when he began coughing up blood

1:02:101:02:13

whilst on a break with his family.

1:02:131:02:15

Tests revealed a cancerous lesion

on his lung and at the start

1:02:151:02:17

of the year he announced his

resignation from the Cabinet

1:02:171:02:20

to undergo major surgery.

1:02:201:02:23

His operation was a success and,

a few short weeks after being

1:02:231:02:26

discharged from hospital,

he has returned to Parliament

1:02:261:02:28

and I'm delighted to say

he's also joined us now.

1:02:281:02:30

Welcome to the programme.

1:02:301:02:32

Thank you very much, good to be

back.

How are you feeling?

1:02:321:02:37

Remarkably well, very strong. First

week back in Parliament, which was

1:02:371:02:41

quite emotional, people coming up

and giving you hugs. It's

1:02:411:02:45

interesting how something like this,

from across the comparative party, a

1:02:451:02:52

unifying issue, Jacob Rees-Mogg,

Nicky Morgan, coming and welcoming

1:02:521:02:56

you back. And Labour MPs, SNP MPs

and the Lib Dems, real warmth. It is

1:02:561:03:03

a rarity, as we know at times, where

some of the political bait is very

1:03:031:03:07

intense, to have that very warm

reception. So I was very moved.

You

1:03:071:03:13

look very vigorous, it is only about

six weeks?

About six weeks. The care

1:03:131:03:18

and support I received from the NHS

was absolutely outstanding. I just

1:03:181:03:22

could not fault the hospital

treatment that I received. I suppose

1:03:221:03:28

being disciplined about getting

back, getting myself fit, forcing

1:03:281:03:31

myself to do lots of exercise, do

lots of walks, having Cassiem my

1:03:311:03:38

children, strong family support

behind me as well, it has just been

1:03:381:03:41

amazing. The number of people that

are written in, e-mailed, wishing me

1:03:411:03:47

and, whether they support my own

party or not, just wanting me to do

1:03:471:03:50

well. So yes, positive. The

prognosis is good. I think I was

1:03:501:03:55

lucky that I was able to pick it up

early enough. But it has I think

1:03:551:04:00

underlying to me a number of issues

about lung cancer, as I had a small

1:04:001:04:07

cancerous Schumer, where there is

some stigma Ramis. Around 15% of

1:04:071:04:12

cases of lung cancer have no link to

smoking. I think people try and form

1:04:121:04:17

some judgments, that is someone's

fault. People shouldn't do that at

1:04:171:04:20

all about cancer. It is about early

intervention, picking it up early,

1:04:201:04:25

following it through. There are many

moments where I could have said, too

1:04:251:04:28

busy, can't actually do this, but

following that through, getting the

1:04:281:04:32

treatment I needed, I am so

delighted to be here feeling as

1:04:321:04:36

strong as I am.

You are having these

tests at a fairly crucial time in

1:04:361:04:41

the Brexit negotiations. You where

Northern Ireland Secretary and at

1:04:411:04:45

the very point when the Prime

Minister was having to put together

1:04:451:04:47

a deal acceptable to the EU and DUP

about what was going to happen to

1:04:471:04:51

prevent a hard border across Ireland

at the end of last year, when you

1:04:511:04:56

are still Northern Ireland

Secretary, I am sure you have kept

1:04:561:04:59

up with this even though you are now

on the backbenches. We have been

1:04:591:05:02

speaking on the programme about the

possibility of a customs union with

1:05:021:05:06

the EU. Is it necessary to have one

in order to avoid a hard border on

1:05:061:05:11

the island of Ireland?

Last time I

was here we were touching on that

1:05:111:05:16

issue and the first phase

negotiations that had concluded. In

1:05:161:05:20

essence, the three elements we look

at, in essence the negotiations on

1:05:201:05:24

the trade arrangement with the EU,

if that does provide the issues

1:05:241:05:30

around the border, then specific

proposals the UK Government would

1:05:301:05:33

then make and that Ms backstop of

alignment to deal with the

1:05:331:05:36

North-South issues.

That was a

remarkable thing, because you've

1:05:361:05:42

promised full alignment with the

rules of the internal market and

1:05:421:05:46

Customs union, basically keeping, in

essence, the UK in the single market

1:05:461:05:51

and Customs union if some other

solution is found.

It is also

1:05:511:05:54

looking at the equivalence issues,

of how you can create the same

1:05:541:05:56

outcomes without having full

alignment. I think that is

1:05:561:06:00

important. This whole debate around

the customs union actually comes

1:06:001:06:04

down to, what is our future

relationship with the EU? Do we

1:06:041:06:09

need, as I believe we do, to be able

to negotiate agreements externally,

1:06:091:06:13

do we ensure we are not simply a

rule taker, that we just abide by

1:06:131:06:18

the rules and almost we voted to

leave the EU but we are now even in

1:06:181:06:22

a worse situation of actually being

subject to everything but without a

1:06:221:06:27

say at all. I just don't see that as

tenable.

Yet that is exactly the

1:06:271:06:33

situation we find ourselves in is

another solution to the Irish border

1:06:331:06:36

isn't found, isn't it? That is what

the Prime Minister signed up to,

1:06:361:06:40

full alignment with the single

market and customs union unless

1:06:401:06:43

there is another agreement, which we

haven't seen emerge?

I believe we

1:06:431:06:48

can agree with the EU, this free

trade agreement, deals for goods and

1:06:481:06:51

services, because it is the services

element that is really crucial to

1:06:511:06:55

this as well. Whilst also ensuring

yes, we don't have that hard border

1:06:551:07:03

emerging on the island of Ireland

with everything that goes with it.

1:07:031:07:07

The regulatory issues, yes, there

are differences that already exist

1:07:071:07:09

between Northern Ireland and Great

Britain, particularly around some

1:07:091:07:12

animal health and animal welfare

issues. There is experience we can

1:07:121:07:15

point to and there is a way forward,

as to how we negotiate this in the

1:07:151:07:18

weeks I had to get that right

outcome.

It needs to be started on.

1:07:181:07:23

Michel Barnier wants an agreement

about the Irish border before we

1:07:231:07:25

move on to talking about the future

trade relationship?

The first phase,

1:07:251:07:32

it's a tiered basis approach that we

take on how it is about the broad

1:07:321:07:35

issues first and how I believe we

can negotiate an outcome that deals

1:07:351:07:40

with the very sensitive issues of

the Good Friday Agreement, the

1:07:401:07:44

Belfast agreement, and also the

broader issues and North-South

1:07:441:07:46

co-operation on the island of

Ireland. So it actually it's about

1:07:461:07:49

going to back to those first phase

negotiations, following it through

1:07:491:07:53

and getting the right outcome for

the island of Ireland, Northern

1:07:531:07:57

Ireland and the UK as a whole.

Some

of your colleagues who want to make

1:07:571:08:01

out the Irish border is something of

a side issue we shouldn't get too

1:08:011:08:03

worried about say things like the

Good Friday Agreement is out of

1:08:031:08:07

date. You must be worried when you

hear them say things like that? You

1:08:071:08:11

understand how sensitive it is?

When

I return to Parliament and made my

1:08:111:08:15

first interventionist league, I was

very clear on how the Belfast

1:08:151:08:19

agreement, Good Friday Agreement

underpins the situation, the whole

1:08:191:08:24

freedoms and arrangements on the

island of Ireland, how it remains as

1:08:241:08:28

relevant now as it has ever done. I

know some people picked up on does

1:08:281:08:33

this define Brexit? I think actually

there is a ground of commonality and

1:08:331:08:38

realising how important this is.

Yes, over time it maybe there are

1:08:381:08:43

certain issues in slower time, once

we get devolved government backed up

1:08:431:08:47

and running that you could review,

could look at this in a sensible

1:08:471:08:51

fashion. There are certain things

that perhaps people have pointed to,

1:08:511:08:55

mandatory coalitions of devolved

government in Northern Ireland,

1:08:551:08:58

questioned if that is still the

right way forward. That is a

1:08:581:09:01

separate issue, that is in slower

time. The Good Friday and Belfast

1:09:011:09:05

agreement continues to underpin and

needs to define how we look to the

1:09:051:09:09

future.

James Brokenshire, stay with

us. We will bring in some of the

1:09:091:09:13

rest of the panel. As you see it, is

essentially the question of the

1:09:131:09:18

border with Ireland always going to

underline the Brexit talks and

1:09:181:09:21

always be a problem, something

difficult for hard Brexiteers who

1:09:211:09:25

want nothing to do with the customs

union to get around?

It will always

1:09:251:09:29

be a problem until there is a

solution. The Irish government

1:09:291:09:32

doesn't want to border, the British

government doesn't want border,

1:09:321:09:36

European union doesn't want a

border. You have everybody trying to

1:09:361:09:39

go to the point. There was a speech

last September in Belfast, you were

1:09:391:09:46

probably there, where it was

suggested there should be a customs

1:09:461:09:49

arrangement between Britain and the

European Union, between Britain and

1:09:491:09:54

the Republic of Ireland. He

suggested that himself. From the

1:09:541:09:59

Torquay, talks is giving at the

moment you would think he had never

1:09:591:10:02

said that. I don't know what form

that would take but surely if you

1:10:021:10:06

have all three parties to these

agreements wanting the same outcome,

1:10:061:10:09

there ought to be a way of doing

this.

A lot of other things people

1:10:091:10:15

in the EU have said means the means

of getting to that outcome is

1:10:151:10:21

difficult?

The outcome is easy,

everyone agrees. Like the war in

1:10:211:10:27

Iraq, everyone agreed, they wanted

peace in the Middle East, how do you

1:10:271:10:30

get there? The fact they all agree

on the end is not that significant.

1:10:301:10:36

Indeed, the first phase negotiation

which you were nobly involved with,

1:10:361:10:40

and of going tests on Don, reminds

me of that first UN resolution in

1:10:401:10:44

the build-up to the war in Iraq.

Everyone could sign up to it because

1:10:441:10:47

it meant different things to

different people. This is the

1:10:471:10:53

problem, as you know. The Irish

government viewed it differently to

1:10:531:10:55

the British government, who viewed

it differently from the rest of the

1:10:551:10:58

EU. Now we come to the crunch. I can

see no way forward beyond some

1:10:581:11:02

continued membership of the customs

union. You can't have a separate

1:11:021:11:05

arrangement for Northern Ireland,

the DUP wouldn't buy it for a start.

1:11:051:11:10

I gather that is one of the main

reasons why Jeremy Corbyn, was a

1:11:101:11:13

sceptic about all of this, is

signing up to it, because he sees

1:11:131:11:17

now this is the only way of keeping

the open border.

Talking of Jeremy

1:11:171:11:24

Corbyn, one issue we haven't touched

on is a story that has been running

1:11:241:11:28

all week about Corbyn's contacts

with so-called Czechoslovakian

1:11:281:11:31

agent. It was interesting, the way

it is played out, he attacked the

1:11:311:11:35

newspapers for running the stories,

really strong attacks from some Tory

1:11:351:11:39

MPs against him which looks like

they may have rebounded a bit?

The

1:11:391:11:44

thing looking back over this week

which has become clear that has come

1:11:441:11:48

out of this Jeremy Corbyn question

is Labour know exactly what they are

1:11:481:11:51

doing when it comes to social media

and the Conservatives still probably

1:11:511:11:54

don't. If you look at the way Jeremy

Corbyn handled this issue, he made

1:11:541:11:57

his Nvidia and put it out on YouTube

and Twitter and it got thousands and

1:11:571:12:02

thousands and thousands of hits.

Rush might he made his own video. He

1:12:021:12:07

didn't need to speak to newspapers

or television to do it. It allows

1:12:071:12:11

free rein to attack a story like

this, where Jeremy Corbyn does

1:12:111:12:15

actually have real questions to

answer. Whether you think it is

1:12:151:12:19

right or wrong or right or wrong he

was giving state secrets, he still

1:12:191:12:22

met this person and that is a

question he has to answer. Brendan

1:12:221:12:26

Bradley has had to apologise for the

Tweety made. I think one point about

1:12:261:12:29

this that we should all take away is

his apology has been re-tweeted and

1:12:291:12:35

is now an attack line and is vicious

and picked -- vindictive or so

1:12:351:12:42

people need to be kinder to each

other.

There was no evidence he was

1:12:421:12:45

selling state secrets or knew any

state secrets to give away for free,

1:12:451:12:49

which is why you have this sense

that actually the Tories went a

1:12:491:12:52

little too far in describing him as

a traitor, saying he betrayed the

1:12:521:12:56

country and they were the ones...

Hang on a minute, it was one MP that

1:12:561:13:00

got taken to task for that.

He's now

been forced to apologise. The

1:13:001:13:05

Defence Secretary said he betrayed

his country.

You said the whole Tory

1:13:051:13:09

party, yes there were attacks on

Jeremy Corbyn and there still are in

1:13:091:13:11

the media. The Sunday time -- Sunday

Times today has a 2-page spread

1:13:111:13:19

today. Anyone under the age of 40

just discount this sort of thing. It

1:13:191:13:24

is like in the general section, the

stories had no effect on people

1:13:241:13:31

under the age of 40.

We have to

leave it there, thank you all for

1:13:311:13:34

coming in.

1:13:341:13:35

Join me again, next Sunday

at 11, here on BBC One.

1:13:351:13:37

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:371:13:40

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