03/11/2013 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


03/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by Unite leader Len McCluskey, the head of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, and shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna.


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Sunday Politics. It began as Sunday Politics. It began as

:00:40.:00:53.

Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

:00:54.:00:57.

MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

:00:58.:01:02.

the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

:01:03.:01:07.

capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

:01:08.:01:11.

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

:01:12.:01:16.

sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

:01:17.:01:18.

should be covered up. headlines: 700 jobs and a ?1 billion

:01:19.:01:21.

investment. Work is In the north east and Cumbria. Fears

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investment. In In the north east and Cumbria. Fears

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the region could lose millions of pounds of health funding. And does

:01:31.:01:32.

Hitachi's new authority is investigating --

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investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on

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its staff. With me as always, the best and the

:01:44.:01:50.

brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt

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who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they

:01:55.:01:57.

got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to

:01:58.:02:04.

a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home

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Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the

:02:09.:02:12.

treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met

:02:13.:02:16.

him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was

:02:17.:02:21.

prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.

:02:22.:02:25.

But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.

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Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.

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The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there

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enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the

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police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad

:02:47.:02:50.

and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for

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contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to

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prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what

:03:00.:03:03.

is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try

:03:04.:03:08.

to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from

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day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I

:03:17.:03:20.

knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.

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And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as

:03:28.:03:30.

to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not

:03:31.:03:36.

will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the

:03:37.:03:40.

Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can

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say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under

:03:46.:03:51.

statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This

:03:52.:03:56.

is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy

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of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will

:04:01.:04:07.

keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung

:04:08.:04:12.

the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like

:04:13.:04:17.

his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the

:04:18.:04:21.

report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in

:04:22.:04:27.

Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as

:04:28.:04:31.

deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len

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McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out

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the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a

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petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the

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Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come

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under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance

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demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of

:05:01.:05:07.

a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy

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the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems

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to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in

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deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him

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as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of

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labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend

:05:34.:05:40.

of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any

:05:41.:05:46.

wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len

:05:47.:05:56.

McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is

:05:57.:06:02.

in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion

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trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved

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in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing

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new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in

:06:22.:06:26.

the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had

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done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in

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Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says

:06:36.:06:40.

you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to

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fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you

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thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the

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Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then

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instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and

:07:04.:07:07.

during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened

:07:08.:07:11.

and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I

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was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent

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enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing

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because the people who originally complained changed their evidence

:07:27.:07:30.

and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to

:07:31.:07:36.

rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.

:07:37.:07:42.

We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that

:07:43.:07:50.

all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting

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the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are

:07:58.:08:01.

allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were

:08:02.:08:09.

put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they

:08:10.:08:13.

doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations

:08:14.:08:19.

that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea

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that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families

:08:25.:08:29.

has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They

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clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved

:08:39.:08:42.

in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.

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Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they

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are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position

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is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw

:09:02.:09:09.

their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his

:09:10.:09:16.

family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full

:09:17.:09:20.

weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to

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Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an

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independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

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office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,

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the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks

:09:47.:09:49.

for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since

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when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to

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the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and

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it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making

:10:15.:10:18.

decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift

:10:19.:10:25.

back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent

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protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was

:10:35.:10:38.

not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling

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everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had

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loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to

:10:53.:11:00.

join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the

:11:01.:11:07.

Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going

:11:08.:11:12.

to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were

:11:13.:11:17.

loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the

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Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have

:11:25.:11:30.

used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at

:11:31.:11:35.

people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to

:11:36.:11:41.

look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an

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absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the

:11:49.:11:51.

21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the

:11:52.:11:59.

wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever

:12:00.:12:03.

it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk

:12:04.:12:12.

constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your

:12:13.:12:21.

opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con

:12:22.:12:26.

trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your

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legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of

:12:35.:12:38.

trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband

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wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way

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ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company

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started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,

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that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called

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INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring

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Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to

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a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who

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says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it

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in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make

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that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You

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instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what

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Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the

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petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due

:13:53.:13:58.

introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was

:13:59.:14:05.

being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost

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Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was

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saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and

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humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len

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McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with

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INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop

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stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns

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and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has

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condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have

:14:51.:14:55.

you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour

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Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested

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in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the

:15:06.:15:10.

requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last

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Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will

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continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they

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are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.

:15:27.:15:32.

You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.

:15:33.:15:38.

We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company

:15:39.:15:44.

to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking

:15:45.:15:49.

unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive

:15:50.:15:54.

industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all

:15:55.:16:01.

Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to

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implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is

:16:05.:16:10.

what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our

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members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not

:16:15.:16:20.

be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as

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disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My

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membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are

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executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me

:16:43.:16:46.

standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I

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will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us

:16:52.:17:05.

by the media. "A country ready to welcome your

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investment which values your friendship and will never exclude

:17:09.:17:10.

anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The

:17:11.:17:13.

words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which

:17:14.:17:16.

was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm

:17:17.:17:20.

words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a

:17:21.:17:22.

spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the

:17:23.:17:25.

wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of

:17:26.:17:28.

some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the

:17:29.:17:31.

Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.

:17:32.:17:41.

First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east

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London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,

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one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it

:17:51.:17:55.

frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the

:17:56.:18:00.

British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,

:18:01.:18:03.

traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate

:18:04.:18:08.

to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one

:18:09.:18:12.

question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to

:18:13.:18:21.

address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront

:18:22.:18:25.

radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of

:18:26.:18:29.

sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not

:18:30.:18:39.

nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young

:18:40.:18:45.

Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using

:18:46.:18:48.

Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this

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work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has

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been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public

:19:05.:19:13.

to please people but in private something very different is being

:19:14.:19:17.

said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,

:19:18.:19:23.

it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for

:19:24.:19:31.

radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's

:19:32.:19:36.

faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if

:19:37.:19:41.

rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some

:19:42.:19:49.

sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,

:19:50.:19:56.

and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and

:19:57.:20:00.

it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially

:20:01.:20:06.

when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to

:20:07.:20:11.

talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There

:20:12.:20:14.

is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the

:20:15.:20:21.

one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist

:20:22.:20:27.

perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of

:20:28.:20:38.

minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public

:20:39.:20:53.

places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy

:20:54.:21:05.

of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and

:21:06.:21:08.

that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the

:21:09.:21:11.

preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council

:21:12.:21:17.

of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating

:21:18.:21:21.

sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved

:21:22.:21:27.

predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for

:21:28.:21:34.

some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We

:21:35.:21:40.

need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the

:21:41.:21:47.

normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and

:21:48.:21:51.

chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that

:21:52.:21:58.

actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible

:21:59.:22:04.

with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to

:22:05.:22:10.

women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures

:22:11.:22:14.

of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain

:22:15.:22:19.

itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they

:22:20.:22:28.

are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to

:22:29.:22:36.

are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are

:22:37.:22:36.

experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages

:22:37.:22:40.

what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not

:22:41.:22:44.

being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance

:22:45.:22:49.

rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been

:22:50.:22:52.

found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in

:22:53.:22:56.

this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what

:22:57.:23:03.

are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem

:23:04.:23:09.

of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be

:23:10.:23:13.

exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many

:23:14.:23:18.

Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a

:23:19.:23:23.

big cultural gap will exist between the two.

:23:24.:23:30.

And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq

:23:31.:23:33.

Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the

:23:34.:23:42.

veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible

:23:43.:23:49.

to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory

:23:50.:23:57.

requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting

:23:58.:23:59.

themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst

:24:00.:24:13.

wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life

:24:14.:24:16.

successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red

:24:17.:24:20.

herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim

:24:21.:24:27.

girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point

:24:28.:24:37.

of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the

:24:38.:24:41.

public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones

:24:42.:24:50.

who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a

:24:51.:24:57.

practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour

:24:58.:25:04.

it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women

:25:05.:25:09.

should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the

:25:10.:25:14.

veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is

:25:15.:25:20.

important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free

:25:21.:25:26.

choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their

:25:27.:25:30.

free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it

:25:31.:25:35.

helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away

:25:36.:25:41.

from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad

:25:42.:25:46.

thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim

:25:47.:25:50.

preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim

:25:51.:25:56.

women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim

:25:57.:26:02.

women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being

:26:03.:26:09.

forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and

:26:10.:26:15.

what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,

:26:16.:26:20.

very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is

:26:21.:26:25.

wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other

:26:26.:26:31.

Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider

:26:32.:26:35.

that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any

:26:36.:26:45.

Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an

:26:46.:26:49.

organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not

:26:50.:26:55.

coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by

:26:56.:27:01.

individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that

:27:02.:27:05.

would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would

:27:06.:27:10.

not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires

:27:11.:27:22.

children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you

:27:23.:27:30.

agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have

:27:31.:27:39.

just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a

:27:40.:27:48.

black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on

:27:49.:27:54.

anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.

:27:55.:28:05.

I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think

:28:06.:28:11.

it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would

:28:12.:28:16.

wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some

:28:17.:28:28.

muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the

:28:29.:28:35.

start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I

:28:36.:28:39.

would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic

:28:40.:28:48.

girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the

:28:49.:28:53.

top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.

:28:54.:29:01.

But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those

:29:02.:29:05.

girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I

:29:06.:29:13.

am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.

:29:14.:29:19.

There is a very conservative movement from the continent on

:29:20.:29:31.

Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their

:29:32.:29:36.

website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged

:29:37.:29:43.

to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should

:29:44.:29:47.

not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you

:29:48.:29:52.

think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They

:29:53.:29:57.

are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree

:29:58.:30:07.

with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is

:30:08.:30:15.

what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is

:30:16.:30:19.

quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you

:30:20.:30:42.

agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back

:30:43.:30:46.

to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.

:30:47.:30:51.

This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.

:30:52.:30:59.

Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday

:31:00.:31:06.

mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your

:31:07.:31:18.

counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they

:31:19.:31:28.

have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is

:31:29.:31:33.

advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the

:31:34.:31:39.

Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The

:31:40.:31:45.

Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots

:31:46.:31:52.

of common issues to create a community which positively

:31:53.:32:00.

integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate

:32:01.:32:07.

for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications

:32:08.:32:10.

available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your

:32:11.:32:18.

organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall

:32:19.:32:28.

under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British

:32:29.:32:38.

mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of

:32:39.:32:44.

prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to

:32:45.:32:49.

prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very

:32:50.:32:56.

beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?

:32:57.:33:04.

Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council

:33:05.:33:14.

have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious

:33:15.:33:19.

stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at

:33:20.:33:26.

this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.

:33:27.:33:43.

That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we

:33:44.:33:55.

live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they

:33:56.:34:00.

have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You

:34:01.:34:06.

would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like

:34:07.:34:13.

that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation

:34:14.:34:20.

to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission s

:34:21.:34:24.

rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law

:34:25.:34:31.

of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger

:34:32.:34:40.

issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul

:34:41.:34:47.

declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it

:34:48.:34:51.

declaration was signed. Do you still or supported it. One of your leading

:34:52.:35:02.

lights signed it. In the media mainstream he defended his position.

:35:03.:35:08.

You have this associated yourself from it? What is wrong with that? I

:35:09.:35:16.

am not sure about the declaration because we disassociated ourselves.

:35:17.:35:23.

Before reading it? We did not sign it. You have not read it? I do not

:35:24.:35:31.

know all the aspects of the declaration, but at the time in the

:35:32.:35:36.

national newspapers and media there national newspapers and media there

:35:37.:35:46.

was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not

:35:47.:35:47.

was a discussion and a debate and it what was meant by the declaration.

:35:48.:35:54.

When did you decide so is the yourself from the declaration? From

:35:55.:36:02.

day one. We never signed it. The East London Mosque which you are

:36:03.:36:08.

personally closely associated with is the venue for a number of

:36:09.:36:14.

extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the

:36:15.:36:25.

mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described

:36:26.:36:29.

by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another

:36:30.:36:32.

speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad

:36:33.:36:39.

is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop

:36:40.:36:43.

extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?

:36:44.:36:51.

We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or

:36:52.:36:58.

supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is

:36:59.:37:02.

a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is

:37:03.:37:07.

a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told

:37:08.:37:13.

their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to

:37:14.:37:18.

speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a

:37:19.:37:28.

Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did

:37:29.:37:35.

not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and

:37:36.:37:41.

have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I

:37:42.:37:51.

completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,

:37:52.:37:56.

the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the

:37:57.:38:02.

toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted

:38:03.:38:07.

among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a

:38:08.:38:13.

non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which

:38:14.:38:20.

embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim

:38:21.:38:28.

community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which

:38:29.:38:33.

are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our

:38:34.:38:37.

view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The

:38:38.:38:44.

work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all

:38:45.:38:49.

associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are

:38:50.:38:53.

associated with you, but we will watching the Sunday Politics. Coming

:38:54.:38:55.

up: I will be talking to If Hello and welcome to your local

:38:56.:39:19.

part of Sunday politics. Just as satisfying but a bit closer to home.

:39:20.:39:23.

Coming up this week: Fears that some of the most deprived areas of the

:39:24.:39:27.

north east and Cumbria could lose out on millions of pounds of health

:39:28.:39:31.

spending under a new NHS funding model. North`east Liberal Democrat

:39:32.:39:35.

Euro MP Fiona Hall and the Labour MP for Washington and Sunderland,

:39:36.:39:38.

Sharon Hodgson, are here to discuss that and the rest of the week's

:39:39.:39:46.

news. And let's get going with good news. Construction work has begun on

:39:47.:39:52.

Hitachi's new rail plant in County Durham. It will eventually employ a

:39:53.:39:56.

workforce of 730. The Transport Secretary, Patrick McLoughlin, was

:39:57.:39:59.

in Newton Aycliffe on Friday to give the project Government's official

:40:00.:40:01.

stamp of approval, along with Business Secretary Vince Cable who

:40:02.:40:05.

said it was a major step forward for both north`east manufacturing and

:40:06.:40:07.

the railways. This is the proper this really big

:40:08.:40:11.

project. Hitachi are going to commit a to it. We are talking about 700

:40:12.:40:16.

jobs to it, a lot of jobs in the construction stage and in the supply

:40:17.:40:21.

stage. We are getting a real revelation in Britain. Heavy

:40:22.:40:25.

investment is going into Rail. But the trains are

:40:26.:40:42.

manufactured in Japan and shipped over here? It was made very clear by

:40:43.:40:54.

the company. But there is a commitment to building up their

:40:55.:40:59.

supply chain here. These trains will be exported on over Europe.

:41:00.:41:07.

Vince Cable talking to our business correspondent Ian Reeve.

:41:08.:41:14.

In the North East, we have had some really positive signs lately, which

:41:15.:41:24.

is great. But we must not forget that when pots of money is dished

:41:25.:41:29.

out, it is not dished out fairly. ?225 million of that money was given

:41:30.:41:34.

to the south`east London, and only 34 million to the East. But this is

:41:35.:41:41.

good news for manufacturing? Yes, it is, but you have to see it as a

:41:42.:41:51.

whole, not in isolation. Should wee bit disappointed it is just an

:41:52.:41:58.

assembly plant? No, there is a commitment to build them here. We

:41:59.:42:01.

have already got local companies signed up in the supply chain. It is

:42:02.:42:08.

also worth remembering that this is Hitachi rail Europe and they have

:42:09.:42:16.

said the interested in the UK market and in continental orders. And that

:42:17.:42:25.

is only there because we are part of Europe. HS2 could secure vital jobs

:42:26.:42:39.

in Durham? But you are dithering on it? Not at all. There was a vote on

:42:40.:42:46.

Thursday on that. But Labour MPs have been attacking it. Most

:42:47.:42:52.

north`east MPs I know that are in support. The report we had recently

:42:53.:42:59.

said that it will be up on `` it will be a positive benefit in the

:43:00.:43:09.

north`east. But one MP was criticising the report for just

:43:10.:43:16.

that? That was just one MP. There is not a bottomless pit of money, we

:43:17.:43:21.

have to be fiscally responsible. But Labour are in support of High Speed

:43:22.:43:26.

two. Having good news on the way, Hitachi when it opens, but there was

:43:27.:43:31.

bad news this week in the manufacturing sector with job losses

:43:32.:43:36.

in the steel industry. We are not out in the woods in terms of

:43:37.:43:41.

manufacturing yet? No, we are not. We started another place. I have

:43:42.:43:47.

spent the week going round a meeting a lot of companies in the region and

:43:48.:43:53.

I was quite struck by how several of them in different sectors said

:43:54.:43:56.

cautiously that it is getting better, this last quarter or two, we

:43:57.:44:01.

have been on the right side of the line. That is something to be very

:44:02.:44:07.

pleased about. Can we be confident that manufacturing is in good hands

:44:08.:44:11.

in the north`east? The workers in the North East are being renowned

:44:12.:44:16.

for being some of the best. Getting enough government support? No, I

:44:17.:44:21.

think we can always get a fair slice of the government funding. But with

:44:22.:44:26.

regard to unemployment, I think there is still a lot of worry here

:44:27.:44:32.

in the north`east, and in my constituency in particular,

:44:33.:44:37.

long`term unemployed has gone up by the worst amount in the whole

:44:38.:44:47.

country. Thank you. Now, parts of the north`east and

:44:48.:44:51.

Cumbria has some of the worst health problems in Britain. But a new

:44:52.:44:54.

funding formula being considered could reduce the amount of money GPs

:44:55.:44:58.

get to tackle them. NHS England is considering switching resources away

:44:59.:45:01.

from the most deprived areas and towards places with the highest

:45:02.:45:04.

number of older people. But there are potential winners as well as

:45:05.:45:08.

losers as Mark Denton reports. Pennywell in Sunderland, a place

:45:09.:45:11.

that is used to facing problems, high unemployment, anti`social

:45:12.:45:14.

behaviour ` for years, they have been challenges here. If you live in

:45:15.:45:23.

this area, you are more likely to die earlier. Women's life expectancy

:45:24.:45:31.

is three years less than the English average, men's is five years less.

:45:32.:45:39.

There are high levels of cardiovascular and respiratory

:45:40.:45:42.

disease, principally from smoking, but also from the history of heavy

:45:43.:45:47.

industry diseases. There are also concerns about obesity, based on

:45:48.:45:55.

poor diet. But despite those problems, could this area be about

:45:56.:45:59.

to see money axed from its health budget? NHS England is reviewing the

:46:00.:46:04.

way it handled money to clinical commissioning groups. At the moment,

:46:05.:46:11.

deprivation is taken into account. But one idea is to scrap that and

:46:12.:46:16.

switch funding to areas with high levels of elderly people And that

:46:17.:46:20.

could leave a hole in the North's health service funding. . Sunderland

:46:21.:46:23.

could lose ?41 million, Newcastle ?15 million, Gateshead ?21 million,

:46:24.:46:26.

and Cumbria ?62 million. Inevitably, commissioning groups will have to

:46:27.:46:29.

look at cutting some of the provision that they give no. `` give

:46:30.:46:44.

now. That may be some of the obesity clinics, smoking clinics. It may

:46:45.:46:50.

have an impact on people's health. The plan is to remove ?230 million

:46:51.:46:55.

from the health Commissioner's budget for the North East and

:46:56.:46:59.

Cumbria. That would have a devastating effect on health care in

:47:00.:47:03.

the north`east of England. What makes matters ten times worse is I

:47:04.:47:07.

asked about this year ago and received an assurance from the

:47:08.:47:12.

Minister that they would not do what they are now consulting on doing But

:47:13.:47:16.

they see things rather differently 70 miles away. . Just although there

:47:17.:47:27.

is a North Yorkshire market town of horse `` Hoares. Some in the local

:47:28.:47:34.

health service thinks of funding shake`up could benefit this

:47:35.:47:44.

community. This is a huge area. The doctors have got a lot of ground to

:47:45.:47:49.

cover here. If they put the business on age, it should benefit the

:47:50.:47:54.

practice enormously and help to put it on a secure financial footing.

:47:55.:48:00.

The cost of complying with rules and regulations, many of which have been

:48:01.:48:03.

brought in the last three years, falls disproportionately on us.

:48:04.:48:11.

North Yorkshire is a very popular place for people to grow old in.

:48:12.:48:16.

People who are more elderly have more complex health and social needs

:48:17.:48:20.

and this has to be reflected in a higher health care budget. There is

:48:21.:48:25.

still time for town and country to make their case. NHS England will

:48:26.:48:29.

make a final decision next month. The funding challenge ` giving areas

:48:30.:48:33.

with very different health needs a fair deal.

:48:34.:48:40.

This is taking health funding from deprived areas in the north and

:48:41.:48:46.

least deprived areas in the south. This is not something that will

:48:47.:48:50.

definitely happen. It is being consulted on. NHS England is doing a

:48:51.:48:57.

bit of kite flying here. I would say it as a bad thing myself. Under the

:48:58.:49:03.

coalition government, we have ring fenced health funding, but we have

:49:04.:49:09.

also made it a legal obligation to address inequality. I agree with the

:49:10.:49:15.

figures about the North East. We get 17 years less of healthy disability

:49:16.:49:21.

free living in the poorest areas than in people in places like

:49:22.:49:27.

Hampshire. If you are going to have a legal obligation on inequality,

:49:28.:49:32.

you cannot do this. Why is it coming back again? Why aren't Liberal

:49:33.:49:38.

Democrats in government saying stop this? Because this is a consulting

:49:39.:49:58.

`` phase. Dead of University have come forward with `` with good

:49:59.:50:03.

academic evidence against this. We need that evidence to come forward

:50:04.:50:08.

now. Just a consultation, kite flying? I would love to be able to

:50:09.:50:18.

trust the government that they will not just steam roller this through.

:50:19.:50:22.

It is what they have done with all the health and social care changes.

:50:23.:50:28.

The unfairness of this policy if it happens is just astonishing. Healthy

:50:29.:50:35.

life expectancy in South East Hampshire is 68 years. And in my

:50:36.:50:42.

constituency it is 58 years. Yet Sunderland, pierhead, `` Peter

:50:43.:50:53.

constituency it is 58 years. Yet But does this principle not make

:50:54.:50:58.

some sense? We have an ageing population, it does cost more to do

:50:59.:51:02.

with the health concentrations of older people, surely that is needed?

:51:03.:51:08.

But if you are healthy, it is not much of a cost. We have long`term

:51:09.:51:14.

implications from our industrial past, higher smoking and alcohol

:51:15.:51:20.

abuse... But we saw that GP practice who feel they have not had enough

:51:21.:51:24.

money in the past, not enough recognition for dealing with an

:51:25.:51:27.

ageing population. There might have been small adjustment that could

:51:28.:51:37.

have happened. This adjustment is not small. But suspicion he will be

:51:38.:51:46.

that it is very convenient. This formula benefits Conservative

:51:47.:51:51.

constituencies, unlike Labour constituencies in the North. But

:51:52.:52:04.

there is a legal obligation to address and fairness. That is by

:52:05.:52:11.

this funding proposal at it is being flagged at the moment cannot go

:52:12.:52:18.

ahead. But there is a legal requirement to address inequality

:52:19.:52:21.

and the government put this in place. Any changes in funding, that

:52:22.:52:29.

legal obligation has got to be carried out.

:52:30.:52:32.

And the issue of NHS funding for the north`east will be raised at

:52:33.:52:35.

Westminster on Tuesday by the Middlesbrough South MP Tom

:52:36.:52:37.

Blenkinsop. Now, back in January, Cumbria County

:52:38.:52:41.

Councillors took one of their most important decisions. They appeared

:52:42.:52:45.

to rule out the area as the site for the UK's high`level nuclear waste

:52:46.:52:52.

store. District councillors in Copeland and Allerdale took a

:52:53.:52:55.

different view, but that did not matter as all local authorities had

:52:56.:52:59.

to agree for the idea to move forward. Ten months later, ministers

:53:00.:53:02.

have reopened the consultation over where to put the underground storage

:53:03.:53:07.

and suggested a change in the rules. As Emily Unia reports, campaigners

:53:08.:53:10.

have called that a shameless attempt to usurp local democracy.

:53:11.:53:19.

Side`by`side, but fiercely opposed. Those for and against continuing

:53:20.:53:22.

with this search for somewhere to bury your waist and Cumbria. Hoping

:53:23.:53:29.

to make their voices heard outside the county council in January. The

:53:30.:53:34.

decision by county council is to pull out of the process overruled

:53:35.:53:38.

the yes vote by Copeland and Allerdale Borough Council. But now

:53:39.:53:46.

the government wants to overrule that. It is a move that makes more

:53:47.:54:01.

sense for some politicians in West Cumbria. In that consultation, it is

:54:02.:54:11.

clear to me that the rights are given to the local people and the

:54:12.:54:15.

local authority will just be there to listen to the community and then

:54:16.:54:19.

take the final decision. But those who hoped January's vote was binding

:54:20.:54:23.

are angry about what they say is an astonishingly undemocratic move by

:54:24.:54:35.

the government. They believe it is `` is geology is unsuitable. It has

:54:36.:54:40.

not gone down well with the local MP. It is the same old faces the

:54:41.:54:48.

same old antinuclear campaign. In a campaign against the presence of

:54:49.:54:55.

radioactive material, it is a curious one given that 75% of those

:54:56.:54:59.

materials nationally are already there. Well, let's put that point to

:55:00.:55:17.

Eddie Martin, a former leader of the county council who has helped set up

:55:18.:55:22.

the new Cumbria trust. We have not issued any mysteriess, we are

:55:23.:55:28.

totally in support of Sellafield. We have argued very strongly for much

:55:29.:55:31.

greater investment in Sellafield than hitherto. We are not

:55:32.:55:53.

antinuclear. One or two members of the Cumbria trust may be, but the

:55:54.:55:57.

Cumbria trust is not antinuclear. But you do want to prevent an

:55:58.:56:02.

antinuclear store `` and nuclear store being put in Cumbria. It is

:56:03.:56:08.

morally indefensible to put nuclear waste into a deep repository which

:56:09.:56:14.

is geologically unsafe. I do not know if the camera can see these,

:56:15.:56:18.

these are the number of holes which have been made in West Cumbria.

:56:19.:56:22.

Hundreds and hundreds of boreholes. Not just searching for a geological

:56:23.:56:30.

disposal facility, for oil, for gas, first seismic activity. There

:56:31.:56:34.

are all the boreholes, hundreds of them. What we know from qualified,

:56:35.:56:42.

distinguished professors of geology, West Cumbria is not

:56:43.:56:48.

suitable. That was still being explored. You're concerned as well

:56:49.:56:57.

about damaging Cumbria, but that image would already be damaged?

:56:58.:57:06.

There is a great deal of expertise at Sellafield. What we are saying is

:57:07.:57:14.

that far from storing it under the present conditions, there has to be

:57:15.:57:18.

greater investment in Sellafield in order to store it under the best

:57:19.:57:24.

conditions, not disability to this Swedish facility I visited recently.

:57:25.:57:34.

`` not dissimilar. Why do you want to stop the councils from having a

:57:35.:57:41.

look at this? At what? You holster for this store? Because we are told

:57:42.:57:50.

by a significant number of well`qualified people that you

:57:51.:57:54.

cannot put it in Copeland or Allerdale because they geology is

:57:55.:57:59.

not correct. We are talking about 30 years from now anyway.

:58:00.:58:03.

Now to the rest of the week's news and two of the North's MPs used

:58:04.:58:07.

debates at Westminster to draw attention to the problems faced by

:58:08.:58:11.

disabled people. Here is Mark with the week in 60 seconds.

:58:12.:58:21.

Hate crimes against disabled people should be treated the same as

:58:22.:58:24.

religious or racial attacks according to a Gateshead MP. This is

:58:25.:58:33.

a national problem and a national scandal where people with learning

:58:34.:58:36.

disability are having dreadful experiences because of bullying.

:58:37.:58:43.

They risked elderly and blind people from electrical vehicles has been

:58:44.:58:49.

raised by our north`east MP. They are so quiet, the pose a danger to

:58:50.:59:00.

those members of the public who rely on hearing sound to judge when it is

:59:01.:59:04.

safe to cross the road. Finally, a late`night levy, the

:59:05.:59:09.

first in the UK, is started in Newcastle.

:59:10.:59:19.

Well, let's talk a little bit more about electric vehicles and the

:59:20.:59:24.

danger they might pose to pedestrians because they are just

:59:25.:59:28.

too quiet. I understand you want this to

:59:29.:59:37.

happen. But if manufacturers like this, why the need to legislate? I

:59:38.:59:45.

went out on the street blindfolded with a guide dog and that gave me a

:59:46.:59:51.

powerful sense of how scary it is out there and how much you are

:59:52.:59:56.

dependent on what you can hear. What they are saying is that if it is

:59:57.:00:01.

just a voluntary thing, you cannot be sure that all manufacturers will

:00:02.:00:05.

follow that. In terms of confidence, people who are visually impaired,

:00:06.:00:10.

will worry when they are going out. They persuaded me and I persuaded my

:00:11.:00:14.

group in the European Parliament. The wonderful to include it as a

:00:15.:00:21.

statutory part of legislation on noise which is decided at a European

:00:22.:00:34.

level. We are hoping that we will win the day on this point and that

:00:35.:00:39.

we will get it through. In your constituency, bloody want more

:00:40.:00:46.

legislation on this? `` do they want more legislation on this?

:00:47.:00:49.

they are already doing this by themselves. I have driven in one of

:00:50.:01:09.

these vehicles and the noise that is admitted if you drive at less than

:01:10.:01:21.

90 mph, `` at more than 90 mph, there is greater noise. I am very

:01:22.:01:27.

pleased to hear this has been done and I am baffled by the government

:01:28.:01:34.

is resisting it. The evidence is pretty sketchy. To rush to law on

:01:35.:01:39.

sketchy evidence is that a good idea? I do not think it is

:01:40.:01:46.

satisfactory until we have had accidents.

:01:47.:01:52.

Don't forget to let me know your views by following me on twitter and

:01:53.:01:56.

letting rip, politely. Next week, a north`east MP turns the tables and

:01:57.:01:58.

puts some tough questions north`east MP turns the tables and

:01:59.:01:59.

Thank you for coming, north`east MP turns the tables and

:02:00.:01:59.

puts some tough questions to Thank you for coming, great to see

:02:00.:02:11.

you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's relationship with Unite and other

:02:12.:02:19.

issues all to be discussed in the Week Ahead and we're joined now by

:02:20.:02:32.

the shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna. First I would like to get

:02:33.:02:35.

your reaction to the interview I did earlier with the General Secretary

:02:36.:02:38.

of the union Unite - Len McCluskey. Let's look at what he said. This is

:02:39.:02:41.

a trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all of the

:02:42.:02:46.

demands and the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, are you telling me

:02:47.:02:50.

they are not the conservative mouthpiece in the media? They are

:02:51.:02:54.

laying traps for Ed Miliband and he should not fall into them. Though it

:02:55.:03:00.

is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey denies a lot of the allegations put,

:03:01.:03:06.

but let me be clear in an industrial dispute, the use of aggressive or

:03:07.:03:12.

intimidatory tactics by either side is totally unacceptable. Do you

:03:13.:03:17.

think it is wrong for Unite to send its members to the homes of

:03:18.:03:21.

managers? I don't know what happened in that particular case, but I think

:03:22.:03:26.

you should keep people 's families out of these things and if you are

:03:27.:03:30.

doing something that can upset particularly children, that is a bad

:03:31.:03:35.

thing. I know he denied a number of things you put to him. We now know

:03:36.:03:41.

some of the content of Labour 's own report into what happened at Falkirk

:03:42.:03:46.

and they found all sorts of things - forgery, coercion, trickery and even

:03:47.:03:49.

that their own investigation was being thwarted by Unite. What should

:03:50.:04:02.

Labour do next? I have not read the report. We are told that the latest

:04:03.:04:12.

allegations that have been made is something that the police are

:04:13.:04:15.

looking into so that is not something I think would be

:04:16.:04:26.

appropriate for me to comment on. We learned Labour Party members in the

:04:27.:04:29.

Falkirk constituency have complained to the leader of the Scottish party

:04:30.:04:34.

about a lack of action by the Labour Party on what happened in Falkirk. I

:04:35.:04:45.

am not part of the Scottish party and that is news to me. But the

:04:46.:04:49.

police have indicated they are looking at the new information that

:04:50.:04:53.

has come to light. It is a bit like the 1980s and there was an

:04:54.:04:56.

electrifying moment when Neil Kinnock took on the militant

:04:57.:05:01.

tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed Miliband has sort of tried to take

:05:02.:05:07.

on the Unite union, but it has not worked. Does then not need to be an

:05:08.:05:13.

electrifying moment for Ed Miliband? Your own paper has praised him for

:05:14.:05:17.

seeking to address the issues we have in politics and the

:05:18.:05:22.

disconnection from people. In many respects the situation in Falkirk

:05:23.:05:28.

categorises the process of further ongoing change where we are trying

:05:29.:05:32.

to establish a better relationship with individual trade union members.

:05:33.:05:39.

In parts of my constituency, some of the most deprived parts, we had

:05:40.:05:42.

people queueing round the block to vote. I do not think the issue is

:05:43.:05:48.

that people are not political, but they have never felt so far from

:05:49.:05:53.

party politics as they do now and that is why Ed Miliband announced

:05:54.:05:57.

this big chains about how we do things in the Labour Party, so we

:05:58.:06:02.

change structures in the Labour Party that were set up in the 2 th

:06:03.:06:07.

century. The reform of the way in which we connect and our

:06:08.:06:11.

relationship with the union puts us in a good position because we have

:06:12.:06:15.

this relationship between the 3 million working people who ensure

:06:16.:06:27.

our public services function. At Grangemouth INEOS stood up to

:06:28.:06:31.

unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk Labour rolled over to the Unite

:06:32.:06:37.

union. I do not agree with that I'd just explained the reason. I do not

:06:38.:06:45.

think it is fair to ask people to give evidence in an enquiry on the

:06:46.:06:51.

basis of the report will be confidential and then to publish it

:06:52.:06:57.

after. But if somebody is trying to take over a Labour constituency to

:06:58.:07:02.

send an MP of their choice to our Parliament, that should not be

:07:03.:07:08.

secret, that should be public. Ed Miliband acted very decisively. That

:07:09.:07:14.

constituency party is still in special measures as I understand it.

:07:15.:07:19.

This idea that somehow the Unite union runs the Labour Party, they do

:07:20.:07:26.

not. The special measures mean according to Eric Joyce, that an

:07:27.:07:31.

ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the meeting. I am interested in the Tory

:07:32.:07:39.

suggestion that they would offer free Tory party membership to union

:07:40.:07:43.

members. I then moving onto your turf? We do not know exactly all the

:07:44.:07:52.

facts and the truth of the allegations that have been made On

:07:53.:08:01.

your point I think it is healthy the Conservatives are looking to recruit

:08:02.:08:06.

trade union members. A lot of their rhetoric is very negative in respect

:08:07.:08:13.

of trade unions. If you look at Unison a third of the members vote

:08:14.:08:19.

Conservative. In Unite union some of their members vote Tory. I think

:08:20.:08:24.

trade unions have a lot to bring to our country. It is one of the things

:08:25.:08:30.

many up and down the country will find very frustrating, a lot of the

:08:31.:08:35.

good work that unions do if it gets tarnished with all the negative

:08:36.:08:39.

stuff you see... Unite are working in partnership with GM and the

:08:40.:08:45.

senior management in Ellesmere Port and the government ensured that we

:08:46.:08:50.

kept that plant open. That gets overlooked by all of this. Do you

:08:51.:08:58.

not think the bolshie behaviour from unions are motivated not by

:08:59.:09:02.

strength, but by weakness. Unite know they cannot paralyse the

:09:03.:09:06.

country in the way their forebears used to be able to do. Their

:09:07.:09:12.

penetration rates in the private sector is 11%. The union movement is

:09:13.:09:17.

weaker than it was before I was born. Some of that truck killers and

:09:18.:09:22.

bad behaviour either death spasms of their movement rather than something

:09:23.:09:27.

that is motivated by the fact they can't paralyse the country. You have

:09:28.:09:36.

two increase the membership. But there is an issue about the public

:09:37.:09:40.

perception of trade unions. It is right they should be a voice of

:09:41.:09:45.

protest and anger and stand up for their members when it is necessary.

:09:46.:09:50.

But people join unions for their aspiration. The unions do a lot so

:09:51.:09:56.

that people can move up in their workplace. That profile needs to

:09:57.:10:01.

come across as strongly as the protest part. I want to move on to

:10:02.:10:08.

business. The head of the CBI has said that Labour's pro-enterprise

:10:09.:10:16.

credentials have suffered a setback. He said that in relation to Ed

:10:17.:10:21.

Miliband's speech. I was on the radio earlier. If you look at the

:10:22.:10:25.

things in the speech, some of that was going to be uncomfortable for

:10:26.:10:30.

some of the countries and they tend to be companies represented by the

:10:31.:10:34.

CBI, like energy companies, like land developers, a lot of the big

:10:35.:10:40.

business lose out from is not doing the corporate tax cut. The energy

:10:41.:10:48.

freeze is going to help over 2. million businesses that have been

:10:49.:10:52.

hit by high energy bills. The business community has said we had

:10:53.:10:56.

to bring the public sector finances back into balance. That is why we

:10:57.:11:02.

decided to switch the money being used to reduce corporation tax and

:11:03.:11:08.

use that to help a much greater variety of businesses by doing a

:11:09.:11:12.

business rate cut. It is all pro enterprise. They also seem to be

:11:13.:11:21.

critical of your new idea of a living wage. They are not critical.

:11:22.:11:27.

It would not be compulsory, but there would be a tax credit if they

:11:28.:11:34.

paid it. It is good for business because if people are earning more

:11:35.:11:39.

than they are more productive. It is good for the employee and good for

:11:40.:11:44.

us as well because it means we are not having to subsidise people to be

:11:45.:11:52.

paid to the extent we have with tax credits and benefits. Everybody

:11:53.:11:59.

benefits from this. We all know after 2009 we need to have bold

:12:00.:12:06.

change. Does Labour paid a living wage? We have got over 20 of our

:12:07.:12:14.

councils signed up to doing so and we have made commitments in respect

:12:15.:12:19.

to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party pay it? I believe so. Would it not

:12:20.:12:29.

be worth checking? Do you get a living wage? Yes, of course I do. I

:12:30.:12:42.

understand we paid a living wage. What does it feel like for Tristram

:12:43.:12:47.

Hunt who has taken over your mantle as Labour's next leader? Is that a

:12:48.:12:55.

relieved or are you angry? He is one of my best friends and at the end of

:12:56.:12:59.

the day if we got obsessed with this soap opera stuff we would never get

:13:00.:13:04.

anything done and we are working together to make sure we have got

:13:05.:13:13.

the right skills in our workforce. That is all for today. The daily

:13:14.:13:19.

politics is on all week. I will be here again next weekend at 12:2 pm

:13:20.:13:28.

after the Remembrance Day service at the Cenotaph. Remember if it is

:13:29.:13:30.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. Planet Earth - it's unique.

:13:31.:13:59.

It has life. To understand why, we're going to

:14:00.:14:04.

build a planet...up there. There were the objects that were

:14:05.:14:11.

making the Earth. We're now weightless.

:14:12.:14:14.

That's how our planet started. Your arms are a little bit long

:14:15.:14:17.

Is that as small as they go? This is like every shopping trip

:14:18.:14:20.

I've ever been on.

:14:21.:14:25.

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