25/05/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


With Richard Moss. Andrew Neil is joined by communities secretary Eric Pickles, Labour MP Diane Abbott and Ukip's Patrick O'Flynn to discuss the local and European elections.

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Good morning, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Senior Liberal Democrats


say the public has lost trust in Nick Clegg. They call for him to go


after the local election meltdown. And before the likely Europa rove a


catastrophe tonight. Labour and Tories struggled to cope with the


UKIP insurgency as Nigel Farage hosts his success and declares the


In the North East and Cumbria: We're henhouse.


In the North East and Cumbria: We're live with reaction to all the local


election results. And the market town where residents


are voting on whether to break away from Teesside and join


hall spread, the Liberal Democrats disappeared, UKIP failed to show.


More analysis in just over half an hour.


Cooped up in the Sunday Politics henhouse, our own boot should --


bunch of headless chickens. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh. The


Liberal Democrats lost over 300 councillors on Thursday, on top of


the losses in previous years, the local government base has been


whittled away in many parts of the country. Members of the European


Parliament will face a similar comment when the results are


announced tonight. A small but growing chorus of Liberal Democrats


have called on Nick Clegg to go. This is what the candidate in West


Dorset had to say. People know that locally we worked


incredibly hard on their councils and as their MPs, but Nick Clegg is


perceived to have not been trustworthy in leadership. Do you


trust him? He has lacked bone on significant issues that are the core


values of our party. This is how the party president


responded. At this time, it would be foolish


for us as a party to turn in on ourselves. What has separated us


from the Conservatives is, while they have been like cats in a sack,


we have stood united, and that is what we will continue to do. The


major reason why is because we consented to the coalition, unlike


the Conservatives. We had a vote, and a full conference.


Is there a growing question over Nick Clegg's leadership? Different


people have different views. My own view is I need to consult my own


activists and members before coming to a conclusion. I am looking at


holding a meeting for us to discuss the issue. I have been told by some


people they do not think a meeting is required, they think he should


stay, and other people have decided he should go. As a responsible


Democrat, I should consult the members here before coming to my


conclusions. What is your view at the moment? I have got to listen to


my members. But you must have some kind of you. Because I have an open


mind, I do not think he must stay, I am willing to say I have not made my


mind up. From a news point of view, that is my official position. I can


assure you there is not much news in that! I said earlier I am not going


to say he must go must stay, I am consulting my members. But you must


have some kind of view of your own before you have listened to your


members. There are people who are wrongfully sanctioned and end up


using food banks, I am upset about that, because we should not


allow... I do not mind having a sanctioning system, that I get


constituents who are put in this position, we should not accept that.


I rebel on the issue of a referendum on membership of the EU. I am also


concerned about the way the rules have been changed in terms of how


parents are treated in their ability to take children to funerals out of


school time. There are questions about the leader's responsible T for


those policies. Nick Clegg has made it clear he is a staunch


pro-European, he wants the Liberal Democrats to be in, he does not want


a referendum, if you lose a chunk of your MEPs tonight, what does that


say about how in June you are with written public opinion? There are


issues with how you publish your policies. I do not agree 100% with


what the government is doing or with what Nick Clegg says. I do think we


should stay within the EU, because the alternative means we have less


control over our borders. There is a presentational issue, because what


UKIP want, to leave the EU, is worse in terms of control of borders,


which is their main reason for wanting to leave, which is strange.


There are debate issues, but I have got personal concerns, I do worry


about the impact on my constituents when they face wrongful sanctions.


You have said that. A fellow Liberal Democrat MP has compared Nick Clegg


to a general at the Somme, causing carnage amongst the troops. I am


more interested in the policy issues, are we doing the right


things? I do think the coalition was essential, we had to rescue the


country from financial problems. My own view on the issue of student


finance, we did the right thing, in accordance with the pledge, which


was to get a better system, more students are going to university,


and more from disadvantaged backgrounds. But there are issues.


But Nick Clegg survive as leader through till the next election? It


depends what odds you will give me! If you are not going to give me is,


I am not going to get! If you listen to John hemming, he has got nothing


to worry about. He does have something to worry about, they lost


300 seats, on the uniform swing, you would see people like Vince cable


and Simon Hughes lose their seats. But nobody wants to be the one to


we'll be nice, they would rather wait until after the next election,


and then rebuild the party. Yes, there is no chance of him walking


away. Somebody like Tim Farron or Vince Cable, whoever the successor


is, though have to close the dagger ten months before an election, do


they want that spectacle? If I were Nick Clegg, I would walk away, it is


reasonably obvious that the left-wing voters who defect had


towards the Labour Party in 2010 will not return while he is leader.


And anything he was going to achieve historically, the already has done.


Unlike David Miliband, sorry, Ed Miliband or David Cameron, he has


transformed the identity of the party, they are in government. Had


it not been for him, they would have continued to be the main protest


party, rather than a party of government. So he has got to take it


all the way through until the election. If he left now, he would


look like he was a tenant in the conservative house. What we are


seeing is an operation to destabilise Nick Clegg, but it is a


Liberal Democrat one, so it is chaotic. There are people who have


never really been reconciled to the coalition and to Nick Clegg, they


are pushing for this. What is Nick Clegg going to do, and Tim Farron?


-- what is Vince Cable going to do? Vince Cable is in China, on a


business trip. It is like John Major's toothache in 1990. What is


Tim Farron doing? He is behind Nick Clegg, because he knows that his


best chances of being leader are as the Westland candidate, the person


who picks up the mess in a year. Vince Cable's only opportunity is on


this side of the election. But you say they are not a party of


government, but what looks more likely is overall the -- is no


overall control. You might find a common mission looking appealing.


They could still hold the balance of power. A lot of people in the Labour


Party might say, let's just have a minority government. 30 odds and


sods who will not turn up to vote. If they want to be up until 3am


every morning, be like that! When you were in short trousers, it was


like that every night, it was great fun! The Liberal Democrats will not


provide confidence to a minority government, they will pull the plug


and behave ruthlessly. Does Nick leg lead the Liberal Democrats into the


next election? Yes. Yes. Yes. I am sorry, Nick Clegg, you are


finished! We will speak to Paddy Ashdown in the second part of the


show to speak about the Liberal Democrats. The UKIP insurgency could


not deliver the promised earthquake, but it produced enough shock waves


to discombobulated the established parties. They are struggling to work


out how to deal with them. We watched it all unfold.


out how to deal with them. We Behind the scenes of any election


night is intensely busy. Those in charge of party strategy and


logistics want their people focused, working with purpose and rehearsed


to make sure their spin on the results is what viewers remember and


take on board. A bit of a buzz of activity inside the BBC's studio,


kept and primed for the results. What this does not show due is the


exterior doubles up for hospital dramas like Holby City, there are


doorways that are mock-ups of accident and emergency, but the


electorate will discover which of the parties they have put into


intensive care, which ones are coming out of recovery and which


ones are in rude health. We joined David Dimbleby. Good evening,


welcome to the BBC's new election centre. When three big beasts become


for on the political field, things have changed. Eric Pickles says we


will be seen off next year, we will see you at Westminster! This party


is going to break through next year, and you never know, we might even


hold the balance of power. Old messages that gave voters in excuses


to go elsewhere on the ballot paper exposed the older players to


questions from within their ranks. In the hen house of the House of


Commons, the fox that wants to get in has ruffled feathers. The reason


they have had amazing success, a rapid rise, partly what Chuka Umunna


says about being a repository, but they have also managed to sound like


human beings, and that his Nigel Farage's eight victory. For some


conservatives, a pact was the best form of defence. It would be


preferable if all members of UKIP and voters became Tories overnight.


That seems to be an ambitious proposition. Therefore, we need to


do something that welcomes them on board in a slightly different way.


Labour had successes, but nobody but they're wizards of Spain was


completely buying a big success story. Gaffes behind the scenes and


strategic errors were levelled at those who have managed the campaign.


They have played a clever game, you shuffle bedecked around, and if UKIP


does quite well but not well enough, that helps Labour get in. That kind


of mindset will not win the general election, and we saw that in the tap


ticks and strategy, and that is why, on our leaflets for the European


elections, we chose deliberately not to attack UKIP, that was a bad


error. Not so, so somebody who has been in that spotlight. If you look


at the electoral maths, UKIP will still be aiming at the Tories in a


general election. They are the second party in Rotherham, Labour


will always hold what the room, it is safe, there is no point being


second in a safe seat. UKIP have taken Castle Point, a Tory seat they


will target. The question for the next election, can they make a


challenge? The Tories will be under the gun from UKIP. The substance of


these results is UKIP not in government, they do not have any


MPs, they do not run a single Council, at dismissing them ceased


to be an option. The question is, who will they heard most and how do


you smoke the keeper's threat? Joining me now, day about and


Patrick O'Flynn. Do you agree not enough was done for the elections?


No, we have very good results around Hammersmith and Fulham, Croydon,


Redbridge, and we picked off council wards in Haringey meaning that Lynne


Featherstone and Simon Hughes worked on. The Ashcroft polling shows that


in key marginals, we are well ahead and on course to win in 2015. I will


be putting Mr Ashcroft's poll to Eric Pickles shortly. On the basis


of the local elections your national share of the vote would be just 31%,


only two points ahead of the Tories, only two points ahead of Gordon


Brown's disastrous performance in 2010. Why so low? National share is


one thing but I am talking about what we are doing in the key


marginals. Clearly some were taken away from others like Rotherham but


we have got many voters back. You are only two points better than you


were in 2010 and use of your worst defeat in living memory.


That is the totality. What matters is seat by seat, that is what the


Republicans found in the presidential elections. Patrick


O'Flynn, you performed well in the local election but it wasn't an


earthquake. It is definitely true that Labour did well in London but


that is a double-edged sword because you have an increasing disconnect


between the metropolis and the rest of the country. Our vote share was


somewhat depressed not just because London is one of our weakest part of


the country but because most of the warts in London were 3-member wards


and we were typically only putting up one candidate. Even when they


fared well, it still tracked down the projected national share. I


think we did well, and what was particularly good was getting the


target seat list becoming clear before our eyes. Suzanne Evans said


that basically smart folk don't vote for UKIP. I think that is a tiny


fragment of what she said. She said London is its own entity and is


increasingly different from the rest of the country. One of the things


that is different from London as opposed to Rotherham is that we have


very big parties. I have a few thousand people in mind, Rotherham


has a few hundred. People don't go and knock on doors and talk to


people, in London we have always had to do that. London is full of young


voters, full of ethnically diverse voters, that is why you are not


doing well, you don't appeal to live there. I think London in general has


a very different attitude to mass uncontrolled immigration. Londoners


know that if an immigrant moves in next door to you, to use Nigel


Farage's phrase, the world doesn't end tomorrow. People in the big


cities know that, that is the point. What Diane Abbott is doing is try to


convince London of its moral superiority so I am delighted... It


is a simple fact that immigrants do not end the world if they move in


next door. The economic recovery is getting more robust by the month,


you have a seriously to ship problem according to many people on your own


site. Maybe you're 31% of the vote is as good as it gets. Those who go


round bitching about Ed Miliband have been doing that before the


result. We have all polled very well. Ed Miliband does not polled


very well. He has actually fashioned some really effective policies.


Unemployment is tumbling, inflation is falling, growth is strengthening,


and you have a leader who claims there is a cost of living crisis and


he doesn't have a clue about his own cost of living. I think that was


poor staff work. That he doesn't know what goes in his own shopping


basket? I think his own staff could have prepared him for that. My point


is that the numbers are looking better, we know that, but people


don't feel better off. Then why are all consumer index polls better?


They are feeling confident. They may be saying that, but people are


worried about their future, their children's future. That is not what


you buy today or tomorrow. If you ask people about their future and


their children's future and prospects, they feel frightened.


What will be a good result for you in the general election? We need to


see Nigel Farage elected as an MP and he mustn't go there on his own.


How many people do you think will be with him? Who knows, but we will


have 20 to 30 target seat and if you put together the clusters we got in


last year's County elections with the one we got this year, you can


have a good guess at where they are. A number of people who voted


for you and Thursday say they are going to back to the three main


parties in general election. It would be foolish of me to say that


they are going to stay. Some have said they have just lent their votes


but voters hate being taken for granted. It is up to us to broaden


our agenda, and build on our strengths, work on our weaknesses.


Ed Miliband may have to do a deal with him. We have been here before,


but the UKIP bubble is going to burst and that may happen around the


time of Newark. Are you going to win Newark now? We are going to give it


a really good crack. We love being the underdog, we don't see it as


being the big goal -- the be all and end all. If you're going to get a


big bounce off the elections, not to go and win your shows people who


govern in Parliament, they don't vote for you. It is Labour who have


given up the campaign already so we need a really big swing in our


favour and we will give it a great crack. The bubble will burst at the


Newark by-election, trust me. Have you been to Newark? Newark will see


from local people... Where is it? It is outside the M25, I can tell you


that. My point is that we are set for victory in 2015. I want to run


this clip and get your take on it, an interview that Nigel Farage did


with LBC. What they do is they have an auditor to make sure they spend


their money in accordance with their rules. You say that is if there is


something wrong with it. Hang on, hang on. This is Patrick O'Flynn, is


this a friend in the media or a member of the political class? Do


you regret doing that now? What were you doing? No, I was trying to get


Nigel Farage to a more important interview with Sunday Times that had


painstakingly organised. He was on there? I have told the LBC people


next door that he was running over. So you interrupted a live interview


and you don't regret that? No, because just between us I wasn't a


massive enthusiast for that interview taking place at all. I


know what James O'Brien is like and I knew it wouldn't be particularly


edifying. But your boss wasn't happy with the intervention. Sometimes the


boss gets shirty. We all upset our boss every now and again, but anyway


you could be an MEP by this time tomorrow and you won't have to do


this job any more. You can then just count your salary and your expenses.


I will make the contribution my party leader asked me to, to restore


Britain to being a self-governing country. Are you going to stay in


the job or not? I would not be able to do the job in the same way but I


would maybe have some kind of overview. We will leave it there.


Yesterday Michael Ashcroft, a former deputy chairman, produced a mammoth


opinion poll of more than 26,000 voters in 26 marginal


constituencies, crucial seat that will decide the outcome of the


general election next year. In 26 constituencies people were asked


which party's candidate they would support, and Labour took a healthy


12 point lead, implying a swing of 6.5% from Conservatives to Labour


from the last general election. That implies Labour would topple 83 Tory


MPs. The poll also shows UKIP in second place in four seats, and


three of them are Labour seats. Michael Ashcroft says a quarter of


those who say they would vote UKIP supported the Tories at the last


election. As many as have switched from Labour and the Lib Dems


combined. The communities Secretary Eric


Pickles joins me now. The Ashcroft Paul that gives Labour a massive 12


point lead in the crucial marginal constituencies, you would lose 83


MPs if this was repeated in an election. It doesn't get worse than


that, does it? Yesterday I went through that Paul in great detail,


and what it shows is that in a number of key seats we are ahead,


and somewhere behind, and I think is Michael rightly shows... You are


behind in most of them. This is a snapshot and we have a year in which


the economy is going to be improving, and we have a year to say


to those candidates that are fighting those key seats, look, just


around the corner people are ahead in the same kind of seat as you and


we need to redouble our efforts. The Tory brand is dying in major parts


of the country, you are the walking dead in Scotland, and now London,


huge chunks of London are becoming a no-go zone for you. That's not true


with regard to the northern seats. Tell me what seats you have? In


terms of councillors we are the largest party in local government.


After four years in power... You are smiling but no political party has


ever done that. You haven't got a single councillor in the great city


of Manchester. We have councillors in Bradford and Leeds, we have


more... You haven't got an MP in any of the big cities? We have more


councillors in the north of England than Labour. A quarter of those who


say they would vote UKIP and did vote UKIP supported the Tories at


the last election. Why are so many of your 2010 voters now so


disillusioned? Any election will bring a degree of churning, and we


hope to get as many back as we can, but we also want to get Liberal


Democrats, people who voted for the Lib Dems and the Labour Party. If we


concentrate on one part of the electorate, then we won't take power


and I believe we will because I believe we represent a wide spectrum


of opinion in this country and I believe that delivering a long-term


economic plan, delivering prosperity into people 's pockets will be felt.


On the basis of the local election results, you would not pick up a


single Labour seat in the general election. You make the point that it


is about local elections. Seats that Labour should have taken from us


they didn't, which is important... I am asking what possible Labour seat


you would hope to win after the results on Thursday. Local elections


are local elections. The national election will have a much bigger


turnout, it will be one year from now, we will be able to demonstrate


to the population that the trends we are seeing already in terms of the


success of our long-term economic plan, they will be feeling that in


their pockets. People need to feel secure about their jobs and feel


that their children have a future. Maybe so many of your people are


defecting to UKIP because on issues that they really care about like


mass immigration, you don't keep your promises.


We have reduced immigration and the amount of pull factors. Let me give


you the figures. You have said a couple of things are not true. You


promised to cut net immigration to under 100,000 by 2015, last year it


rose by 50,000, 212,000. You have broken your promise. We still intend


to reduce the amount from non-EU countries. I want to be clear, I


have no problem with people coming here who want to work and pay their


national insurance and tax, to help fund the health service. What I have


objection to our people coming here to get the additional benefits. You


made the promise. It is our intention to deliver it. People


defect to UKIP because mainstream politicians to -- like yourself do


not give straight answers. Can you be straight, you will not hit your


immigration target by the election, correct? We will announce measures


that. People factor. Will you hit your target? It is a year from now,


it is our intention to move towards the target. Is it your intention, do


you say you will hit your target of under 100,000 net migration by the


election? We will do our damnedest. But you will not make it. I do not


know that to be fact. They also vote UKIP cos they do not trust you and


Europe, David Cameron has promised a referendum, he has vowed to resign


if he does not deliver one, but still your voters vote for UKIP.


There were reasons why people voted for UKIP. A great deal of anger


about the political system, about the Metropolitan elite that they see


running programmes like this and the political programmes. We need to


listen to their concerns and address them. David Cameron has got a better


record on delivery. He vetoed a treaty, he stopped us having to bail


out the currency. Why are you likely to convert a night in the European


elections? If you do come third, it will show they do not trust you on


Europe. Next year, we will face a general election, about having money


in people's pockets, about who will run the country. David Davis wants


to China and get the voters to trust the Tories on the referendum, he was


the pledge to be brought forward to 2016. He is a clever guy. But if you


are going to try to negotiate a better deal to give the population a


better choice, you cannot do that in a year, you will require two years.


You are an Essex MP, you know about Essex people, it must be depressing


that they are now voting for UKIP. I do not have any UKIP in my


constituency. I felt bad to see Basildon go down and to see the


leader go down. Do you know why that is? The Tory party does not resonate


with the Essex people in the way that the Margaret Thatcher party


did. That is why you did not get a majority in 2010 and why you will


not win in 2015. We need to connect better. They will want to know about


their children's future, will they have a job, a good education? When


it comes to electing a national government, they do not want to see


Ed Miliband in office. They are voting for Nigel Farage. In terms of


what government you get, do you want to see David Cameron in number ten


or Ed Miliband? Essex will want to see David Cameron. You only got 36%


of the vote four years ago, your party, occurs you did not get the


Essex people in the same numbers, like John Major or Margaret Thatcher


did. You need more than 36% in 2015 to win the election. On Thursday,


your share was 29%. We were 2% behind Labour. They did not do very


well either. A year before, -- a year before the election in 1997,


they were on 43%. It is highly deliver the votes. We have a


campaign looking at the marginals. We know exactly where we are not


doing as well as we should be. I am a big fan of Michael Ashcroft. Do


you think he does this to be helpful? He is a great man and a


good conservative, I am a good friend of his. I think that his


publication was one of the best things that happened to the party.


You got 36% of the vote last time, you are down to 29, you need 38 or


39, you would get that if you had a pact with UKIP. There will be no


pact. I am a Democrat. It is like a market stall, you should put your


policies out there and you should not try to fix the market. Would you


stop a local pact? There will be no pact with UKIP. None.


It has just gone 11:35am. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland and


Northern Ireland. Coming up here, we will speak to the


Hello, and after a hectic week of coordinator Paddy Ashdown. First,


Hello, and after a hectic week of elections, we're here to see where


it leaves the political landscape in the North East and Cumbria. With me


live in the studio, Gateshead's Labour MP Ian Mearns, Berwick


Conservative candidate Anne`Marie Trevelyan, and Newcastle Lib Dem


councillor David Faulkner. Also coming up: Should this market town


in Teesside become part of North Yorkshire? The people who live there


get THEIR say. And I'm in Sunderland, where the


European election results are under lock and key ready for tonight's


count. Will UKIP make the breakthrough they promised in the


North East? More from Mark shortly. Well,


there's no doubt that Labour is still the big force in North East


politics, and nothing that happened in the polling stations on Thursday


changed that. These were the scenes of jubilation in Sunderland. And


they were repeated at other town halls in the north, including


Newcastle, Gateshead, and South Tyneside, where Labour easily


retained control. But it's only part of the story. UKIP may have only won


two council seats ` both of them in Hartlepool ` but they piled up the


votes, winning a fifth of all votes across the region and coming second


to Labour in many contests. That performance should put them on


course to win their first ever European Parliamentary seat in the


North East. This was the verdict from voters in Eaglescliffe.


UKIP of course. Nigel Farage. Why is that? I don't like the way the


Conservatives are messing things around. They are saying they will do


one thing and then they do something else. UKIP. Why is that? Because I


just think they are the best party at the moment. I don't trust any of


the others. I might as well have something new. I agree with some of


his policies. I voted Labour. Why was that? Because I think they will


represent us well in Europe. UKIP. We voted UKIP. Fed up with the rest


of them. Labour. Why is that? Because I'm working class, always


voted Labour all my life. Voters in Eaglescliffe. Support like


that for UKIP was enough to deliver them two councillors in Hartlepool.


Tom Hind was one them. People are voting for UKIP this time


around simply because they are a national party with a lot of new and


positive ideas for the way the country needs to be run, and we're


beginning to resonate with the local population at large.


Well, the local Labour MP in Hartlepool, Iain Wright, said HE


believed voters had turned to UKIP as a protest against all the


established political parties. I think it probably means there is


an anti`politics feeling out there that UKIP can capitalise on. But


we've had UKIP councillors in Hartlepool before. They tend to


implode. They will probably do that again. In many respects, I think


tonight shows that Hartlepool stays on a steady course with Labour still


in control. Labour's Iain Wright. As for the


Conservatives, they kept control of Harrogate ` no surprise there ` and


held onto their seats in North Tyneside. But it was in Carlisle


where their performance arguably mattered most. It's a key battle


ground at next year's general election, and the sitting Tory MP


believes the result offered him hope of retaining his seat.


I think it's been very positive. We held the seats we hoped to hold, and


our vote has held up as well. It's a good base going forward to the


general election next year. Clearly there has been the protest vote to


the UKIP party, so we will have to see how that unravels. If I was in


the Labour camp, I'd be deeply disappointed because if the


opposition party want to be the next government, clearly they aren't


making the advances they should. John Stevenson. For the Lib Dems,


there wasn't much to shout about. They lost eight seats across the


region ` that's not as bad as it might have been. But overall, it was


a predictably disappointing set of results, which local party


candidates blamed on the national mood.


At the end of the day, we have fought this election against a


background of dismal polls, but that's politics, isn't it? I think


it will turn around. Have you got confidence in the national


leadership in Nick Clegg? He's honest. I think he's more honest


than most. I think sometimes...sometimes he might be


better saying nothing. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.


Let's see what our panel make of it all. According to the headlines,


another difficult night for your party. You confident Nick Clegg is


the right man? The damage to our vote caused by our association with


the Kurds server to use and the coalition has not gone down well. ``


the Conservatives. As the general election comes closer, we have to


put the case for what the Liberal Democrats have achieved in


government and what we would like to do beyond the general election in


whatever capacity that we have. But does not strike me as a ringing


endorsement. But you say stick with Nick Clegg. You lack that is what


I'm saying. The only obvious leader who can make any difference is Vince


Cable, and he does not want to do the job. If you will have him what


to do the job, would you prefer that? I have always been a Vince


Cable man. But neat clip will be written up as somebody who has been


more substantial and important than currently presented. `` Nick Clegg.


Small gains, but does this put you in the position to be the next


government? Compared to 2012 when you score 80%, it more like 60% this


time. Still dominant, but a bit of a problem. I think the UKIP effect has


had an impact on the parties. There has not been a general drift away,


there has been a real volatility in the political mix in the area with


people voting many different ways. Some Labour 's gone to UKIP and so


on. From that perspective, the UKIP impact has been volatility in the


area. York party were confident the stop `` your party were confident.


Note Ashcroft shows that over half of UKIP's voters come from the


Conservatives. Only one in seven have come from Labour. What I would


say is that this whole Thursday has been painted as a disaster for


Labour, and having won more than 2000 seats and gained 338, I don't


see how anybody could paint that is a disaster given the losses by the


Lib Dems and the Conservatives. Why is your own party criticising the


campaign and will lead our? I am bemused by that. I think the results


were robust on Thursday. You have no doubts? Witham I don't. I think Ed


Miliband is pulling together a better offer. No longer can we offer


ordinary working`class voters crimes of the table. We have to beef up our


attitude something tangible to work for an something tangible to hope


for. `` crimes of the table. On the popular vote, UKIP outpolled you.


You disappointed? Not surprising. We were aware their target was to


really pull in that disaffected Labour vote, and judging by the


numbers, I think that is what we have seen. But I suspect many people


you would have hoped vote Conservatives. What we saw in


Northumberland will begin have local elections that were running European


elections, most of the Conservative vote hasn't moved to UKIP. We lost a


group of our most right wing and your septic voters last time around,


but we haven't seen a shift since then. `` Eurosceptic. We have seen


an aggressive campaign by UKIP. Then there is that section of the


electorate that have not voted for years. Is UKIP getting levels of


voting in Northumberland that Conservatives couldn't even dream


of? Why would they will do the Conservatives and not UKIP? People


voting UKIP because they Eurosceptic have felt the Conservative Party


have not been aggressive enough, and that is the challenge of the


coalition. The Lib Dems are clearly in favour of Europe and do not want


a referendum. We have driven at a gender aggressively. Would you be


confident of holding onto Berwick? The Lib Dems are resilient. Look at


Emory is the candidate. They have been trying to win it back for


years. We were told they would be a meltdown. `` Anne`Marie. We won back


many seats in difficult circumstances. Where we are built


into the community and work hard and Sheppey in our communities, our MPs


are well known, we will do well to stop `` champions. We still do not


know the outcome of the European elections, which ` to fit in with


the rest of the continent ` aren't counted until tonight. Mark Denten


is at Sunderland, where all the North East action will be. When can


we expect to find out? Richard, hopefully, possibly, maybe before


midnight. There is reputation here in Sunderland for getting the votes


in early. We are here at a tennis centre. There is not a lot of tennis


here. I have my doubts about the wellness as well because if you look


around, there are some picky politicians biting their nails since


Thursday's European elections. Why are we waiting? Because the rest of


Europe is still in the process of voting. In the meantime, those


ballot boxes are under lock and key until we get to ten o'clock tonight


when all of the votes have been collated. The chief returning


officer will do a competent at some dreamt up by a Belgian, and we


should hopefully by midnight have the names of the three MEPs to


represent the North East. You were looking blog yourself despite tough


days. `` you are looking well. Can UKIP win in the North East?


the low `` local. Eight seat for grabs. We will be watching to see if


the BNP managed to retain their seat. Six in Yorkshire. By the end


of the night in the three regions, we will have 70 MEPs. Spare a


thought for the 165 people who will have a disappointing bank holiday


Monday because they did not get in. We have 10.5 hours until we get the


declaration. I will stay around here and keep an eye on this. The


elections would work the same without you.


And if you want to find out all the Euro election results, why not join


Mark ` and a chap called David Dimbleby ` on BBC One from 11


o'clock tonight? And last ` but certainly not least `


on the election front. Dramatic events in Copeland. Residents there


were voting in a referendum to decide if they wanted to scrap the


existing system of council leadership in favour of an elected


mayor of the sort that Middlesbrough and North Tyneside have. And mayoral


campaigners were celebrating success by a majority of more than two to


one. We are so overjoyed. We are ecstatic


at tonight's result. All we can do is say thank you again and again and


again to the people of Copeland. We will talk more about that later.


Let's talk about the European elections. Given the results in the


locals, on a scale of one to ten how sure are you that we will still have


a Conservative MEP in the North East? A seven or eight. I figured


large chunk of the Labour vote having gone to UKIP, Labour have to


get a high percentage, 35% to put the seat at risk, but I'm not a


gambling man and I would say one Labour, one UKIP and one Tory. What


would that say about Conservative support in the region? I figure


would be a great loss to the region to lose Martin as our MEP. He has


fought hard on key issues. It would be a loss for the Conservatives. He


has led the party in Europe in an incredibly determined way. He has


put forward they Eurosceptic agenda is the leader of the group


incredibly effectively. He would be a great loss. I am hopeful he will


come through and still be there tomorrow. On a scale of one to ten,


would you like a minus figure on how likely you are to keep your seat?


What are you laughing at? It ironic that it will be hard for. We are the


party that actually made an election about Europe, where is the other


parties and party leaders were spineless and decided to pretend it


was not a European election. I am proud of our party's commitment. And


strategy hasn't worked. I'm OK. I think it is important somebody


stands up for international is, working with Europe. It is not


uncritical of the EU. Any change and reform. But I'm proud that my party


and leader have stood up to Europe. You have lost the argument. But if


we have lost the argument this time, so be it. There will be a bigger


argument coming if there is a future referendum, and we will put the case


just as enthusiastically then. Would be good enough for you to retain


your one MEP you have, or do you need more? We were talking about


volatility earlier. There will be volatility in this. I am hopeful


Labour will have to sit in the European Parliament from the North


East of England. As far as the European argument, I can't give


another region to which European Union is more important. That


Sinatra and we have to have. `` that is an argument. They went on about


the cost of living crisis. David Faulkner said they would worry


people would migrate to UKIP because they were concerned about


migration. But I would say is that after European candidates have


worked hard and argued about Europe across the whole of the region, and


I think they have been trying to get across to people how important


European Union is to this region. Six of the half`dozen jobs, `` 6500


jobs, but... You think we need to have a referendum? HS2 I am not


frightened of a referendum. I'm not convinced we need to have one. You


have seats like Stockton South. Might be a good idea to talk to UKIP


so James stays in Parliament. Polls showed there was a surprisingly


strong hold in the Conservative vote their way James was working hard on


the ground. He has led the argument for putting a referendum out there


for the people, and if Labour could get off the fence and agree that


whether you vote in or out, we had it, you would see a much of the


view. Well, October has been proposed as


the date for the mayoral vote, although local MP Jamie Reed said


this weekend he wants it to be held on the same day as next year's


general election. We'll talk a bit more about that shortly, but you


might think after all the elections of recent days, people would have


had enough of voting. Not so, it seems, if you live in the market


town of Yarm on the banks of the River Tees. A local referendum will


be held next week to ask residents if they want their community to


leave Stockton and rejoin North Yorkshire. Luke Walton went to find


out more. With its magnificent Victorian


viaduct and genteel Georgian high Street, Yarm doesn't look like an


obvious hotbed of protest. But despite appearances, there is a mood


here of rebellion, with much of the anger focused on the local Stockton


council. And this is one of the reasons for the uproar. The


introduction of pay and display car parking here in the town centre. On


top of that, there's been fury about plans to remove old cobbles from the


high street and to approve hundreds of new homes. Of course grumbles


about your local council are common wherever you live, but what is


different here in Yarm is a truly radical proposal to break away from


the local authority altogether. Step forward the Yarm For Yorkshire


campaign. You don't mind if I put a poster up your window, do you? 40


years after it left the county in a reorganisation of local government,


its supporters think it is high time for its return. We don't feel


represented by Stockton Borough Council. They've mismanaged Yarm in


the past. They have done for a lot of years now. They don't know how to


manage a market town effectively. We feel our historical roots are in the


north rather than in Yorkshire. On Tuesday, the idea of swapping


Stockton Council for the Hambleton district of North Yorkshire will be


put to a vote of local residents. The owner of one of the town's


oldest family businesses is positive about the change. Yorkshire is known


in Australia, New Zealand, all over. People come to visit Yorkshire, look


at the guidebooks, and Yarm doesn't occur. It is outside Yorkshire. This


is very difficult for local businesses. Others criticised the


?4,000 cost of a referendum that is not legally binding, and question


whether change would really be for the better. It's certainly not going


to deliver the result that people want, and I'm not even convinced


Hambleton District Council is the panacea it has been painted out to


be. We will be much further away from the administrative centre,


which could potentially restrict residents' access to social


services, certainly the council services. Out on the high street, in


opinion is divided. I think we should come out of Stockton.


Stockton doesn't do anything for us. I don't know whether it would be any


better. You don't think Hambleton Distrct Council will be any better?


We're right on the end of it. North Yorkshire would be nice, but it's


more of a snobby thing, I think. OK, so you don't think there'll be much


material difference in joining it? I don't know much about it, to be


honest, but I think it's fine as it is. As far as people are concerned,


it's Yorkshire. Do you think it would be good to leave Stockton? Oh,


yeah. There's nothing good about Stockton. Just have a drive down


there and find out. Stockton Council turned down our request for an


interview. But in a statement, the Labour leader Councillor Bob Cook


said the council services were valued by most residents. He added


that all local authorities have to ensure they have proper parking


arrangements, and that they handle planning applications in line with


the national policy framework. The local Conservative MP is not


impressed. The truth is that a lot of people I speak to are frustrated


with Stockton Council. They feel they are not listening to local


communities, whether that is Yarm or elsewhere in the south of the


borough. For some, Yarm has never stopped being a white rose town. The


question now, whether it needs a vocal authority to match the symbol.


Something about local identity going on, but they could be a lot of


non`Labour voters disgruntled at the Labour council does not do much for


them. You will see that disgruntlement in most councils.


They have had disproportionate things thrust on them by the


government. It is difficult. So it is central government's fault? I


think we have to try to make the best job we can, but in those


situations where we have had huge cuts in finances, it makes


resourcing anything for any neighbourhood difficult. It is a


curious Case of democracy. Instead of fighting to win seats, you say we


will dump that council and get one more suited to us. It is a sad


reflection. It is a sad reflection that one big town is choosing this.


We see that with Berwick in hours. Northumberland council is a huge


area, and Berwick are write`up in the northern regions and feel the


council is not hearing what they are saying. I think the challenge is for


councillors to really develop a better relationship with the


community. Parking charges is clearly a driving force behind this


campaign. Talking about the elected mayor vote in Copeland, you are


against having one in Newcastle. Is there a bit of traction for this? I


am still against this. I think there is a strong feeling about the move


towards cities, regions, neighbourhoods, localities. Localism


agenda has a lot more traction. It is interesting that the Liberal


party are saying they were running the country into much of a top`down


way. I think we will see much more of this. Take you to all of our


guests. And that's about it from us. We're


not here next weekend, but rest assured we're back in a fortnight's


time with the results of an exclusive BBC survey finding out


what business in the North East and Cumbria thinks


deported. We should also review the benefits system to make it


contributory. Thank you. With that, back to you, Andrew.


Welcome back. Mutterings among Lib Dems about Nick Clegg's leaderships,


as we reported at the top of the show, and tonight it could get even


worse when we get the results of the European elections. Paddy Ashdown,


former Lib Dem leader, joins me now from our Westminster studio.


Something has to change for the Lib Dems, if Nick Clegg isn't the change


what will it be? The messages we have about reducing tax on the


poorest, they now have traction. We have been on many programmes of this


sort before, this idea that has been put about by these people who are


calling for a leadership election is the silliest idea I have heard in my


political career. It is not serious politics. This is the moment when we


need to get out with a really good message and campaign through the


summer in the context of the general election. Spending it on a divisive


leadership contest is ridiculous. At the very moment when our sacrifices


are beginning to gain traction, we turn in on ourselves. The question


is, can the Liberal Democrats hack being in government? If we were to


take this step, the anther would be no, and that would damage the party


forever. It is clearly a problem, you have had to come out and defend


Nick Clegg, we have not even had the European election results yet. It


could get even worse by midnight. I have been up here anyway, to argue


the party's case in the context of tonight. Let me try to put this in


scale. We have a website which people can join to show their ascent


to the fact that they like cake, it is called Liberal Democrats like


cake, it has more people signed up than this website that is calling


for a leadership election. Something like 200, of course this happens


from time to time, the wonder is you are talking -- you are taking it


seriously. Your colleagues are taking it seriously, including


sitting MPs. People trot out a list of achievements that the party would


like to be associated with, he began doing just that, but you have been


doing that for months, if not for over a year, your ratings in the


polls are terrible, you had a terrible local election, and you


will probably have a terrible European election. It will cut


through much better in the context of an election, we have been talking


about the European elections. We have been here a long time, let me


take you back, we have had tough times, in 1989, we came last in


every constituency in Britain, save one, behind the Green party. One or


two voices said, you have got to ditch the leader, me, you had one of


them on earlier, John Hemmings, as I recall. One or two said we had to


change course, but we stood our ground, and in the general election


we not only re-established our position from a base of almost


nothing, we laid the basis and foundation for doubling our seats in


1997. That is what the party can do, they have a great message, and


insert of wasting the summer and autumn on a leadership contest, we


should be doing that. Nick Clegg had two opportunities to put part of


that message across in the debate over Europe, but the party poll


ratings fell after that. What Nick elected us to try to fill a vacuum


of antique European rhetoric. And he lost. He could not change the best


part of a generation of anti-European propaganda in a couple


of performances? He lost the second debate more than the first. It is a


long-term programme. Nick Clegg had the courage to take us into


government. He took that decision before the party and gained 75, 80%


support in a democratic vote. He has led the party with outstanding


judgement. He has showed almost incredible grace under fire, being


attacked from all sides, because some people hate the coalition, and


he has the courage to do what no other Liberal Democrat leader has


done, to stand up before the British people and say unequivocally, we are


in favour of Europe. He is a man of courage, integrity, decency, he is


one of the best prime ministers Britain has not got. In the context


of a general election, that will go through. I am devoted to the man, he


can do amazingly well in the general election. But he is losing local


elections again and again, the European elections, and he is on


track to lose the general election. European elections are not easy for


us. Whatever happens tomorrow morning, it will not be bad -- as


bad as 1989. We have had that line. In the context of a general


election, we fought our way back, this time, we have been in


government, we start from a higher base, we have a message to tell


about how we alone have taken the tough decisions to get this country


out of the worst economic mess it has ever seen, left to us by the


Labour Party. We can go out in the context of a general election and


fight for that. My guess is that the resurgence of the party in the


context of a general election will be far greater than you are


suggesting. We have done the Liberal Democrats,


that move onto the other parties. How bad a leadership problem does Ed


Miliband have? He has a continuation of a problem he has had for a long


time. The Labour Party thought they had a soft lead, and they have the


same situation, everybody is hanging on. They have to make a


breakthrough. The big thing is that lots of people at Shadow Cabinet


wish they had taken on UKIP, why was Labour turning its fire on the


Liberal Democrats? They should have been taking on UKIP, and UKIP taken


seats from them, such as in Rotherham. They have finally woken


up. I think there is a class war breaking out, the northerners have


taken against Ed Miliband and the Metropolitan sophisticates around


them... One Labour MP has said, we do not want these guacamole eating


people from North London! A number doing that. They wanted to take the


fight to UKIP, because UKIP is getting working-class, Northern


Labour votes. John Mann said it was ridiculous that the Labour Party did


not put posters in the North of England to say that Nigel Farage


regarded Margaret Thatcher as his heroine. But in a funny way, those


Northern Labour MPs are speaking for the South, because the Labour Party


will only win the general election if it takes back those seats in the


south, the south-east, a couple of seats in the south-west that Tony


Blair in 1997, and they acknowledge that. It is important to say they


did win the local elections, they got 31%, but that was only to bustle


-- two points hang-up the Conservatives. Neil Kinnock got 38%


in 1991, the year before John Major got the largest in of votes ever.


There is unease in the shadow cabinet about why Ed Miliband did


not take on UKIP on immigration earlier. But Ed Miliband says, we


should not be calling UKIP names, we should be calling them out, and he


would say he did call them out. The unease in the party has made the


results worse for them than they should have been, they did pretty


well on Thursday. Although UKIP took votes from them in safe seats, in


the end, it will not make much difference. UKIP is taking votes


from Tories in marginals. It made it appear that Labour have not done


well. Diane Abbott was right, a lot of the Labour MPs who came out on


Friday morning had been practising their lines in expectation of a


disappointing result. In the north, I do not think UKIP's status of the


main nonlabour right-wing party will damage Labour. If you have a


majority of 25,000... But in the South and Midlands, UKIP could break


the non-Tory vote in such a way as to cost Labour marginal seats that


they would otherwise win. As for the Tories, look back at 2009, UKIP 116


or 17% of the popular vote in the European elections and fell to 3% in


the general election. You mentioned Europe, the Tories are anticipating


finishing third, they did not do well on Thursday, they seem to be


putting everything on Europe, we will beat UKIP in Newark. That is


the line I am getting from them. The Liberal Democrats and Labour are


nowhere there, they both got 20% of the vote, the Tories got 53%, a


majority of 16,000. UKIP do not need to do well to have an enormous


increase on last time. This seed is a referendum on Tories against UKIP,


which we have not seen so far. I was there for the rocky road packed.


David Cameron gave a piece of rocky road to Boris Johnson, saying, you


know you want it, Boris. The Tories must be a head, because at the


bakery stores, the blue buns outsold the UKIP buns.


Ed Miliband bit off more than he could chew when he turned launch


into a budgeted last week, but he is not the first politician to make a


meal of it. I love a hot pasty, the choice was


to have a small one or a large one, and I opted for the large one, and


very good it was, too. The significance of the Ed Miliband


business is more about the media, we can amplify nothingness, but because


the narrative is that Ed Miliband is accident prone, even eating a big


concern which becomes an accident. He is deemed to be weird, so we find


pictures that support the conclusion. It is a class issue, you


reveal your social class by what you eat, what supermarket you go to. You


can play somebody accurately. Politicians are largely of a


different class from the voters, and as soon as you ask them about food,


it becomes apparent. To thine own self be true, David Cameron


pretending he was interested in Cornish pasties, he does the cooking


at the weekend, lots of posh food, do not pretend to be something you


are not. The problem for Ed Miliband with that picture, he has some


abnormal people working for him, but what he does not have is a broadcast


person who can spot those pictures. George Osborne hired Theo Rogers


from the BBC, she has transformed... She may have been


guilty of the burger, but she has transformed his image on TV. That is


what Ed Miliband needs. You are correct, it Ed Miliband was 15


points ahead in the polls, screwing up the eating of a bacon sandwich


would be seen as an endearing trait. We might not have even noticed it.


That is all this week, you can get those European election results with


David Dimbleby on vote went to 14 from 9pm on the BBC News Channel,


and from 11pm on BBC One. No programme next week, but we are back


in two weeks. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.


This week, Britain has voted for its Members of the European Parliament.


What will the result tell us about the political mood here in Britain


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