08/06/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news and debate, including an interview with Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

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David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers


over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.


And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.


We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live


Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?


David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist


But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?


Here's to the quarter of a million votes.


And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with


a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.


In the North East and Cumbrha: The business view on


Scottish independence from this side of the border.


And just what is going wrong at the North East Ambulance Servicd?


Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?


And with me our panel of top political journalists,


who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee


and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme


This morning's political news is dominated


by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and


The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior


Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling


The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of


investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham


where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken


Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office


was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.


He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.


In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,


"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people


Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the


An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.


Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's


Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning


this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.


There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,


which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.


There will be discipline in the Government.


The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.


The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s


put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.


Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she


has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael


Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during


13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an


act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website


and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of


conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a


leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a


vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In


the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.


She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is


interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse


differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is


tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.


Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the


politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is


deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but


replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in


ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that


ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the


Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with


Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick


Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and


criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the


Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is


fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What


separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The


view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic


extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is


criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour


government introduced to do with the previous Labour government


introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people


and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous


home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in


the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has


used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the


swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed


those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove


would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech


the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2 11


when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists


warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system


is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.


Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.


Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of


their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents


in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political


infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the


resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs


to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.


There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for


four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact


that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on


for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much


stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations


like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the


Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the


leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an


overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We


want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate


themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which


makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to


be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted


curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an


education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender


segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender


segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling


Where you have a state education system, which is about gender


equality between boys and girls and there is an unofficial policy of


gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be


tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We


do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years


ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like


tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do


think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to


inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to


be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy


sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning


as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of


Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools


were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They


were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an


academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within


Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school


standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we


get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking


to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme


which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and


fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a


desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an


increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr


Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for


gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in


since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We


note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected


head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and


what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about


fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of


schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You


mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence


for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group


dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about


schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in


Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of


multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic


education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this


morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,


the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.


In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools


and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed


this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and


this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you


fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get


together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There


are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city


council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning


have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in


schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have


a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for


four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to


account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils


in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young


people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do


you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that


Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was


building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We


have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard


Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate


about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,


the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do


to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must


with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on


stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the


most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -


from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described


Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the


problems of the next five years . But with the German Chancellor


Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that


Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7


summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people


running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change


and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads


of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what


I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed


in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering


that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away


from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.


We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is


a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.


He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.


And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin


Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives


and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.


The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new


Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out


gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to


have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a


high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next


three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the


president of the European Council after the proposal of the European


Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in


the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr


Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going


to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us


one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine


Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have


a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need


radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave


us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in


public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks


campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the


European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent


a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status


quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?


First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks


against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man


who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro


group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the


financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible


financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who


works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in


Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government But


we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of


this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the


winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs


LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority


in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It


is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament


has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by


majority in the light of the European elections after


consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a


candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a


majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the


Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.


I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European


elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the


elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats


in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking


part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the


United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German


socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a


nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with


hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a


democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to


take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if


I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of


the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to


Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives


have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they


have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form


of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr


Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU


exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we


want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious


reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to


vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,


somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We


need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the


European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of


federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in


Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to


take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the


publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.


We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If


enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in


the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,


would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected


by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the


European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted


pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist


thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe


which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not


want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state


This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better


governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to


become better, to change our programme in that question. That


should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for


that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to


be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are


matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent


candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British


commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election


-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.


Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European


They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs


and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.


What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body


which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission


This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They


didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes


They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once


in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,


drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they


are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the


party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and


the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting


such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election


under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was


invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.


When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most


seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated


using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --


first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and


London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,


if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant


to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to


UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would


have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by


mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to


experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of


1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This


man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and


polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat


candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards


realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little


Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do -


bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.


Mr Sanders got some consolation In 1998, laws came into rule on


so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was


established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh


floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to


voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the


conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name


of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those


registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our


opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on


the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,


were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need


to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An


independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved


in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the


description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word


independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in


1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again


at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the


major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking


votes of them. Joining me now to discuss


this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the


South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is


the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that


were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to


tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the


breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats


that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.


You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.


You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those


with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there


is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people


who had voted at the top and the bottom, most people are not anoraks,


they say, they are the people I want. They know what they are after.


I think it is at least told. It is said you owe your seat to And


Independence Party. It is strange for a man to say he could represent


people in the south-west better than me. There has been outpouring of


delight that a Green MP has finally been elected. A number of people


have been saying they have been voting all their lives and it is the


first time they have elected anybody. I am glad to represent them


in a significant legislature. What would you say to that? I find it


strange. I am perfectly happy for her to be elected. I feel the


electoral commission has questions to answer. But, congratulations to


Molly. Why do you want an extra seat for the Greens in the European


Parliament but your national share of the vote actually fell. We did


come under pressure nationally. If he is complaining about the role the


election commission said we could stand, the rule we were not happy


with was the off, ruling which said we were not a main party. We got


significantly less media time and that is why our belt actually fell.


Not on the Daily Politics or the Sunday Politics, where you were well


represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?


Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.


I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had


getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they


voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.


What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would


agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral


Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not


confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to


agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes


and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the


south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats


into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats. For them, the


system worked very well in the south-west. Nationally, Greens did


not get represented as the vote share would require. That is because


you get very small number of seats in the different regions and you


have to reach a high threshold. The Green Party has a right to complain


about the level of seats we have ended up with. White rapper you have


complaints about the Electoral Commission? We need to move to a


proportional system for elections generally. If we poll around 7% 8%,


we should be looking at having 0, 40 seats in the national


legislature. We need to consider proportional representation for


national elections. Do you accept the ballot paper may have confused


some people? I think what happened is that some people in UKIP were


very worried. Worried about the is that some people in UKIP were


rightward move of UKIP and the authoritarian leadership of Nigel


Farage. He set up a separate party. That is what happens in politics,


particularly when parties are led by demagogues and are not focused on


Democratic policy. Do you have any legal redress to this? None


whatsoever. Have you had legal advice? I am told there is no


redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly does not agree with UKIP on anything


so, if we say the sun rises in the morning, she probably will disagree


with that. If, at the next election, there is a party called the Grown


Party, will she then complain? There needs to be some level of


accountability and, without that, one wonders what is going on. We


have an organisation with enormous and important power and influence


which is setup to stop this of thing going on. It has failed. Not has it


has failed. Not present served in Tower Hamlets and there have been


massive problems with postal votes. It is failing on almost everything


it is supposed to do. Just to go back for a final point from Molly.


Should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of the Electoral


Commission? You need to have an authoritative body that makes


decisions in this area and we have the Electoral Commission. It is


about being sore losers on the part of UKIP. I am delighted to represent


people in the South West. Should there be a right of appeal or not?


You need an authoritative body and the Electoral Commission is that. I


do not think it should have a right to appeal.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be discussing extremism


Hello and a warm welcome to your local part of the show.


This week: rising demand and deteriorating response times ` the


North East ambulance servicd is struggling to cope. The Prile


Minister promised to investhgate ` so what's being done? In thd studio


discussing that ` and of cotrse the Queen's Speech is the Hartldpool


Labour MP Iain Wright and Conservative Jeremy Middleton.


The Government this week set out its "to do" list for the rest of this


Parliament. It ranges from introducing charges for plastic bags


in supermarkets to help for child`care and a shake`up of the


planning system. But there's no doubt about its over`arching


message: that the Government is "unashamedly pro`work and


pro`business" and is sticking to its economic plan. As if to reinforce


the point the deputy Prime Linister Nick Clegg was on Wearside on


Thursday ` together with thd Business Secretary Vince Cable. They


were opening a new ?100 million Rolls Royce aerospace factory in


Washington. Nick Clegg said such developments were helping the


We are on a long`term journdy, if you like. The North`South dhvide has


been around for a long time. It s got deep roots and we're not going


to solve it overnight. But H do think we're taking steps in the


right direction. I say this as the most senior member of this


government, from a large northern city, from Sheffield, it's something


I care about passionately. What you see behind me is really, I think, an


absolutely key ingredient for the future to heal the North`Sotth


divide and to boost the fortunes of the North East.


Well, Labour has welcomed the investment but accuses ministers of


ignoring the big issues in the Queen's speech. In particul`r they


want action to tackle job insecurity, youth unemploymdnt and


the housing shortage. So dods the Government have a programme for the


next year that will help Culbria and the North East?


Jeremy Middleton, whether you think this was thin pickings or not, there


was nothing much to boost pdople's living standards or get people into


work, was there? I think the most important thing is


that we keep the economic rdcovery going. We've got the fastest rate of


growth in all of Europe. We got falling unemployment, rising


employment, low inflation, the right ingredients for success. Thd most


important thing is to keep that going. That doesn't require further


legislation. I know some wotld suggest it does. We hear from Mr


Miliband a great deal about he is going to intervene in markets.


That is because people do not feel the benefit of economic growth.


Well, at the moment, not enough people are feeling the benefit. That


is true. But you have to look at the growth and where that leads. And it


takes time. But the factors remain, what is not the answer is to have


some kind of return to 1970s intervention. That will takd us back


to higher unemployment and lower growth.


Iain Wright ` Jeremy Middleton has a point there. You cannot leghslate


for growth, can you? You can put in place the conditions


to make sure that economic growth is sustainable and fair. Jeremx talks


about an economic recovery. Any economic growth is welcome. But my


constituents in Hartlepool, and elsewhere across the North Dast are


certainly not feeling it. Wd're seeing rising job insecuritx, actual


falling wage levels, let alone relative wage levels, so wh`t we


need to be doing is ensuring the economic recovery is sustainable and


for all. We did not have that in the Queens


speech. There was some important sttff in


there that will benefit your constituents. Pension changds, help


on childcare, free school mdals All helping your constituents.


A lot of that has been calldd for by Labour for many years. This is a


mishmash. In terms of housing, the construction sector is an ilportant


part of the North East economy. What the Government said in the Pueen's


speech about creating 15,000 houses is welcome. We actually need 20 ,000


homes a year. That would re`lly boost the construction industry and


help workers in Hartlepool `nd elsewhere.


Jeremy Middleton, this is an important point. You have ldss than


a year until the election to prove what kind of legacy you havd had


over the last five years. And on the issue of housing, never allowing


fracking under people's homds, but not actually building new houses.


I do not think that is corrdct. Housebuilding is going up. @nd it


will go up an awful lot mord. Legislation has been announced to


free up planning so we build more houses.


But you are fracking under people's homes.


That is a separate issue. And actually one I am very keen to


support. Fracking is the most realistic way of reducing energy


bills. And it will help energy intensive industries on Teesside and


in Iain's constituency. What would you support thosd motors


came out I do not disagree with fracking as part of a responsible


energy mix. But my constitudnts are concerned, since the Queen's speech


about fracking under their homes. That should not be allowed. There


should be a need for proper regulation, proper scientifhc,


empirical evidence based on fracking. What the Government has


said, and I urge constituents to get involved, is a consultation about


planning permission for fracking under their homes. 's we have to


leave it there. Labour MPs are demanding urgent


action to tackle what they say is a mounting crisis in the North East


Ambulance Service. All this week, BBC Look North has reported on


problems facing the Trust which is dealing with a huge increasd in the


number of emergency calls. Some patients are facing long delays for


an ambulance like Geoff Pearson from County Durham whose mother broke her


hip in a fall. He had to waht three You are helpless. You cannot do


anything. You're just waiting for the professionals. It is an anxious


time. I could not believe it. I could not believe how you could have


that many people waiting for an emergency ambulance.


The North East Ambulance service does reach 80% of the most seriously


ill in 8 minutes. And for p`tients who do not have a life`thre`tening


condition it aims to respond within 30 minutes. But the man running the


trust says both costs ` and the number of calls ` are continuing to


increase. And he warned that without more money, difficult choicds will


If demand goes up by 5% every year, and I have the same real resources


to deal with it, then I will deal with the most life threatendd


people. I will save as many lives as I possibly can. Others will not get


the quality of service that they would like. We have created a very


lean organisation. We will continue to do that if we need to. Bdcause


the system cannot give us any more. We're in a recession. Taxpaxers


provide the funding for public services. The police, the Fhre


Service, the Ambulance Servhce, hospitals... In the end it hs the


voters who will determine which party they wish to see npowdr and


what the party says they ard willing to spend. `` to see in power.


A challenge to all the parthes there. Well, the Government points


out that the NHS Budget has been protected from cuts and it dxpects


the ambulance service trust to act urgently to correct the problems


Jeremy Middleton, if it was your family waiting, you would w`nt


something done about this. H would not be impressed by a response like


that one. First of all, it hs very disturbing, the cases you h`ve


raised. Ian is quite right to raise these cases. But the second point is


that the whole Ambulance Service is not in crisis, there was a review


last year and that said that 97 of cases saw a response within 90


minutes. We were rated the best in the country.


There will be tough choices. There have been worrying things. H think


the question is, first of all, he says it is the overall level of


expenditure. It is absolutely not. That would be a valid point if the


Government had been reducing expenditure. But the NHS has been


protected. But not keeping up with the number


of calls... The question is what is going wrong? From the cases I have


seen, there are a number of specific issues, prioritisation, I al no


expert, but I think some of the prioritisation is not correct.


Ambulances waiting outside @ departments. These questions must be


addressed by the board of the north`eastern town service, who gets


money from the doctors and commissioners. It is how thd money


is being spent. You talked about this service being


in crisis. Is that not a bit strong? It is the fastest service in the


country. I raised this matter in Parliament.


There was a distressing casd in my constituency where a man didd,


waiting to ours for an ambulance on his bathroom floor. The inqtest said


that they did not have resotrces to meet demand. Jeremy is wrong. It has


not been protected. The north`east and on service has seen acttal cuts.


This year it has seen a cut of 1.35 billion. Rising demand, and ageing


population, and cutting resources...


Is the answer that Labour is committed to putting more money into


Ambulance Services? What needs to be done, is the NHS


must be viewed in a holistic manner. The Ambulance Service must be


recognised as the glue that holds it together.


But you cannot it promises... It is absolutely right that we put


more resources into our Ambtlance Service. I want to insure mx


constituents receive the best possible service at a time of acute


anxiety, if your mother has broken her hip, you want to make stre you


get a swift and professional... Germany made an important point in


that when you call for help, what questions are asked of you? That is


an important thing. Making sure there is professional, clinhcally


led, 909 response. Jeremy Middleton, people will look


at this and say that Labour is correct. The NHS is not safd in


Conservative hands. Well, I think we are both right. There is more money


going into the NHS. He did not promise more money. But what he is


suggesting is that they think there should be more money in the


Ambulance Service there shotld be. But it is the job of the bo`rd of


the ambulance trust to perstade the doctors and those in the NHS that


they should commission and have more money. Either they are failhng to


persuade them, or they are not operationally efficient.


If I am a patient, I hear these arguments about who is provhding


money, who is taking charge? Why the Government not taking chargd? In the


eastern region of the country, where there is also concern about


ambulance trusts, they created a great deal of fuss about thhs and


ended up getting rid of the entire board and change the managelent and


now they have improved results. I am not saying that is what shotld


happen here. But this is for doctors and professionals within thd NHS to


decide how they allocate thdir money. The Chief Executive `nd


politicians are seeing it as nothing to do with us, but that is just an


easy answer. You're playing the blame gale,


basically. No. I am standing up for my


constituents. I am not using this as a stick to beat the Governmdnt. I


want a first`class Ambulancd Service for my constituents and the rest of


the North East. When things go wrong, it seems to be very bad and


has fatal consequences. Rishng demand and cutting resources is not


the answer. It is a difficult subject. Sure we


will come back to it. Now, in a 100 day?s time Scots will


be about to decide on whethdr they want to become independent. It's a


decision which also matters to the North East and Cumbria. In the past


it has sometimes been locked in battle with Scotland for jobs and


inward investment. So what does business here think an independent


Scotland will mean for them? Well to try and find out, the Chambdr of


Commerce in the region asked more than 240 of its members. Here's our


political correspondent Mark Denten. A business Park in Newcastld. Jobs


are being created here. But, as you can see, still plenty of empty


space. Offices like this ond are crying out for tenants. The jobs


that could have come here h`ve gone to Scotland instead. One colpany


were considering bringing jobs here, but chose to relocate to Scotland


instead. An independent Scotland could be an even fiercer colpetitor.


As Edinburgh's nearest neighbour, we will feel it. We need to have more


control over spending. More control over how are offering is perceived


to these large occupiers. To ensure the cameramen competitor.


Concerns among businesses in the region are coming into sharper


focus, as Scotland prepares to vote on independence. Around 240


companies in Cumbria and thd north`east gave their views to the


BBC any questionnaire. 63 South that is an independent Scotland were to


cut corporation tax, they mhght consider investing north of the


border rather than in this region. But the majority, 176, said it would


make no difference to their investment decisions. That hs the


case for this Durham firm. Hn the last few weeks, the body Scottish


building firm. They are confident of their future. This is a str`tegic


decision to expand our business We are employing a lot of people. In


Scotland and Cumbria. What difference should make you


construction works across borders. We have international companies


working within the UK. So what is the difference?


The Chamber of Commerce said that the biggest problem is the lack of


information. We have heard that businesses are holding back on


investing because they are waiting to see what the outcome of the


referendum is. That is a disappointing situation. Thdre is an


inevitability about it, but I think that people on both sides of the


debate should do more to provide clarity for business.


Most businesses in the region are confident they can punch thdir


but there are concerns from some but but there are concerns from some but


it could leave gaps in our dconomy. Well earlier Mark spoke to Hvan


McKee from Business for Scotland ` that's an organisation which


supports independence and is affiliated to the Yes campahgn. He


asked first whether an independent Scotland would succeed at the


expense of our region. It is not a 0`sum game. At the


moment, we're in the same UK. I think, an independent Scotl`nd is a


growth engine, which is what this is about, focusing on policies that


work for Scotland, which is very different from the focus of


Westminster on the South of England. I think people in the North East


very much understand this. They have seen this centralisation ovdr the


decades. Scotland has a strong and vibrant economy and that will


benefit the North East. But the reality is that in lany


cases we are competitors in the oil and gas and renewables industry Our


companies are competing with your companies. Everyone cannot win.


Economic growth benefit everybody. The oil sector has seen record


investment. There are many people in this part of England who tr`vel to


work in Scotland and benefit from that growing sector. There hs plenty


of work for all kinds of colpanies. Renewables will be a huge growth


sector for the Scottish economy in the years going forward and there is


no reason why companies in this part of England should not benefht from


that. At the end of the day, it is a European market. It works across


borders. That will continue as it does at the moment. A growing


Scottish economy can only bd good for this part of England.


Labour MPs in the north`east are concerned about central Parhs and


London. But could the north`east economy not benefit from a shift in


power to Glasgow and Edinburgh? I think we're better togethdr. We


are more successful as the Tnited Kingdom. Further restrictions does


not help anybody. Is it not a fair point to stggest


that having a capital city closer to us is a good thing?


I do not think that is the right answer. It is important to recognise


that our economy is too distorted towards London and the South East,


but the answer is giving us greater powers in the regions to be able to


fulfil our destiny. We have huge advantages in the North East,


industrial strengths, give ts the powers to achieve our potential


If renewable energy takes off in an independent Scotland, could the


North East the a beneficiarx of that? What I am concerned about


whether they vote yes or no, is that Scotland will have a transfdr of tax


and spend authority, and thdy will take money from the south E`st and


use it against us. The dangdr is that it is used effectively to bribe


businesses to operate in Scotland who would otherwise operate in the


North East. We need reassur`nces from the prime minister and the


Chancellor that we will not be at an economic disadvantage. Everx single


political party is offering more tax`and`spend because of thd


election. We need to ensure that the north`east is not put at a


disadvantage. Scotland alre`dy has more spending per head than the


north`east. Should they balance more powers


here? They should ensure thd north`east is not at an economic


disadvantage. Ideally, that would be done by ensuring that Scotl`nd


cannot bribe businesses. Thd alternative is potentially we need


more economic Government powers here.


Is the danger not that we gdt more companies like Amazon reloc`ting to


Scotland? They have not formally put hn place


that investment. The point hs that it is not in anybody's interests to


have a race to the bottom. We should remain as a United Kingdom.


Now, the Queen's speech may have had all the pomp and ceremony this week


` but back in the Commons chamber a Teesside MP was interested hn


With that and the rest of the week's news here's Fergus Hewison.


All buses carrying passengers should be fitted with seat belts, says


North West Durham MP Pat Gl`ss. She made the remarks after a collision


which injured 30 people, including 28 children.


Meanwhile, Tom Blenkinsop, Labour's Middlesbrough South and East


Cleveland MP, wants all households affected by flooding to recdive


The Government must act to protect all households from the dam`ging


effects of flooding. Not just those in urban areas, or where thdre is a


high media presence. I would also urge the government to extend the


support and emphasis it has given to areas hit last winter by flooding to


places like East Cleveland, which were hit earlier in the year.


New figures released this wdek reveal seven areas in the North East


and Cumbria are among the worst in the country for the number of empty


homes. South Lakeland, Hartlepool, Gateshead and Copeland are `mong the


top 20. The Queen's speech contained plans to allow elections for


National Parks authorities ` a move the Government says will address a


democratic deficit. And finally, Durham County Council


has launched a consultation on banning people from smoking in


That's about it from us. Don't forget to follow me on Twitter ` I


may even follow you back, in the nicest possible fashion. We'll be


here same time same place ndxt weekend ` hope you can join me then.


my guests. That is it for the Sunday Politics in London. Back to Andrew.


Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?


Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make


we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read


the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read


the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in


your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not


being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national


holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off


instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is


going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to


influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like


the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society


and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to


Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such


as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as


guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit


half of what men saying this means that women inherit


and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get


any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law


Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is


meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different


situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my


profession of you and planned infiltration? In my


profession of you having spent 3 years on the leadership of an


Islamist organisation, having been involved


Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very


Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to


influence the students of this country with a medieval


interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative


view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within


our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were


explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican


faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.


Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a


policy question. I am not generally in favour. I would believe in this


establishment. I am not a fan of faith schools. I do think the


solution is to ban them. I do think these schools should start working


out with an engaging with the wider communities and not being insular


and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is


coming out tomorrow. We have already had a taste about what it is saying


about some of the schools. Is it a serious problem? It is a very


serious problem. It comes from the segregation of children into


intensely populated areas where everyone is Muslim virtually. You


have to have a system of spreading children between schools. It very


often happens, even with a secular school like this. Nearby Catholic or


Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that


leaves the rest of the state schools to become all of one faith. I think


all of the parties are being quite hypocritical about the profound


problem of continuing to have faith schools. You have Orthodox Jewish


schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict


Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get


worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a


problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state


should simply withdraw from the business of faith education. Like


France? Yes, a secular school. The overall government policy is to take


power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some


schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than


incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of


this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you


devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and


behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary


for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views


that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe


would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how


tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that


view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do


expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the


taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,


educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated


equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at


which has Andrew Mitchell on it the former development Secretary,


because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned


about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.


There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley


Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating


free schools and academies is undermined the work of local


education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which


are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of


being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have


the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary


of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not


that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the


oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point By


tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you


think that will play out? -- it cannot have gone pear shaped. The


story was broken in February. It will keep playing out. The report


that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow or Monday. Then there is the other


report that will look into wider questions, that will come out in


July, I think. We are expecting two points. -- reports. We have to look


at questions of Ofsted and other institutions in our society, even


government departments, where idea of taxing non-violent extremism


became a too boot in this country. -- a taboo. They must be rebuffed


the challenge, as we would expect racism to be challenged. In the


argument between Michael Gove and Theresa May, where do you side? They


should be challenged openly and robust leap by civilian society It


was settled by the Prime Minister and is government policy. I had a


hand in advising or consulting. I think Fiona Cunningham was forced to


resign because what she did violates official government policy. It just


has not been implemented yet. Will Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke?


You'll agree he have to decide whether he will spirit at stopping


him or accepting him as commission president and ask in return for a


massive commission portfolio for Britain, something like the internal


market, which they missed out on last time. It is a diplomatic


decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he


takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the


beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British


Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is


reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest of them. He is reaping that reward.


There is a lot of support within Europe. In Germany, there was a lot


of opposition to David Cameron getting his way. I know him from


Brussels. He is entertaining, you go to dinner with him and he smokes and


drinks. He is entertaining but he is the most awful person you could


think of having trying to sort of symbolise a new European Union. I


remember I was there join the Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when


the voters in France and the Netherlands voted no to the European


constitution, what was his response to that? Let's carry on with the


ratification process of this treaty that has been comprehensively


rejected by voters. He did not say the final bit of that sentence. You


can see why Eurosceptics want him. He has blown a raspy at all the


people who have protested at the elections with the way the European


Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry. This is your most popular... What


has come in most recently is doing really well. This is yours. There we


go. Cheers! By our people so cynical? They always go for a drink


at 11am and they pull their own pipes. I see them every day. -- pts.


Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define


clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough


for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the


fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We


need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,


assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is


what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to


finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger


people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually


liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too


late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the


one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been


doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight


three general elections to the left of Labour and on the third when you


are in coalition with the Tories, you have got a problem. I will be


back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.


What's the hardest thing about being a foster parent?


You're constantly trying to build the elusive trust.


It's like a big old question mark in your heart.


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