Browse content similar to 15/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio. | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed. | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun. | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
But the country now faces a de facto partition. | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything? | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum. | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty? | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
Both sides join us to go head to head. | :01:03. | :01:10. | |
I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
that? In the North East and Cumbrha: | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
even Westminster, we'll be asking The Conservatives try to broaden | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
their appeal in the North. And the Government promised free | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
schools meals in September, but this Cumbrian school dods not | :01:25. | :01:26. | |
even have a kitchen. In London, why the minority vote one | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
recent elections Labour, but recent support amongst people is bigger | :01:32. | :01:32. | |
than assumed. The Sunni Islamist army known | :01:33. | :01:43. | |
as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi | :02:09. | :02:10. | |
army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts | :02:23. | :02:32. | |
of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
partition a real possibility with The US is moving another | :02:40. | :02:41. | |
of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf, | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's | :02:54. | :02:55. | |
diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who | :02:56. | :03:14. | |
are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence. | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims, | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006, | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started, | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What | :04:41. | :04:49. | |
is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are | :04:54. | :05:01. | |
trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will can | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
effectively counter-attacked. But that is what will happen in the next | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
week or two. We will see increasingly large and serious | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
government counter-attacked trying to retake those places, and I fear a | :05:45. | :05:53. | |
really difficult, bloody Syrian style street by street battle for | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
some of these urban centres. I would like to have a look at this map | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
because the Kurds, as I mentioned, they are consolidating their | :06:07. | :06:08. | |
position in the autonomous region in the north. The Islamist are taking | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim West. And of course the Shia Muslim | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
are still dominant in control of Baghdad and in parts of the south | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
and east. Back to me looks like the beginnings of the partition of Iraq. | :06:25. | :06:33. | |
-- back to me. Well, it is, but we have to caveat it in a few ways | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
Firstly, there are millions of people in Iraq, so-called sushi | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
combined families, who do not fit easily into the pattern. Do we see | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
millions of people becoming refugees under this scheme? There would be a | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
lot of human tragedies if people really did try to enforce this type | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
partition. Secondly, there are Sunni Muslim communities in the south of | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
Baghdad, those places, once again, a lot of misery and fighting will | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
occur if people try to enforce a de facto partition. There are still an | :07:09. | :07:20. | |
awakening of forces. They are on the side of the government. We heard | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
about one group in Samarra of Sunni Muslims fighting on the same side. | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
It's a complex picture. They factor, it does look like a partition, and | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
if it goes further in that direction it will. And partition will always | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
be messy because people end up on the wrong side of the lies. | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
Finally, the big thing on that map, Iran, a huge place, a huge border | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now becomes a key factor. It is becoming | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I was in Baghdad a few months ago I | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
have been never some time and they are also said to protect the | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall. | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card. | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003. | :08:32. | :08:33. | |
He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia. | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
This morning he entered the debate about what should be | :08:40. | :08:41. | |
My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11 | :08:42. | :08:52. | |
happened and you have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia, | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would still have had a | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
major problem in Iraq. You can see what happens when you leave the | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
dictator in place, as has happened with Bashar al-Assad. The problem | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
doesn't go away. What I'm trying to say is, we can rerun the debates | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
about 2003, and there are perfectly legitimate points on either side, | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
but where we are in 2014, we have do understand that this is a regional | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
problem, but a problem that will affect us. | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
And I'm joined by the former Foreign Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown, | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
Here in London are James Rubin, he was chief spokesman | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
for the State Department under Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman, | :09:33. | :09:34. | |
she represents the Kurdistan Regional government in the UK. | :09:35. | :09:47. | |
Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, we don't intervene in Syria, it s a | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right. | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him to stay quiet during | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
moments like this, because it does drive a great surge of people in the | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
other direction. The fact is, what has been missing in western politics | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
towards the Middle East throughout both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
drive to build an inclusive, democratic centre which is secular | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
and nonsectarian. That has been missing amongst the threats of | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
invasion Manon invasion, we have just constantly neglected the | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
diplomatic nation-building dimensional this. I want to come | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
onto what is happening on the ground. I want to begin with what | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
the Western response by me, and by that we mean the United States, | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
because of it doesn't do anything, nobody will do anything. All of the | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
signals I see coming out of the White is that Barack Obama has no | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
appetite for intervention -- out of the White House. I don't think he | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
does have an appetite. He would be very unlikely to do anything very | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
large. He might feel pressured to act because of the fact that this | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
particular group, this Al-Qaeda inspired group, fits into the | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
strategy he has pursued in Yemen and Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
drone strikes against individual terrorists. So it is possible that | :11:23. | :11:33. | |
the threat of ISIS in the region and the West in general might inspire | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
him to act, but the idea he will do enough, militarily, to transform | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
Iraq from its current state of civil War into something along the lines | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
that Mark was talking about, nation-building diplomacy, a big | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
operation, I don't see President Obama sees his historic mission as | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
having got the United States as out of it. Leave it to the Pacific, | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
perhaps. What would the Kurds like the West to do? First of all, in | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
Kurdistan we face a huge humanitarian crisis. We already have | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
had bought a quarter of a million Syrian refugees and we were | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
struggling to cope with that. And now we have at least double that | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
number of refugees coming from Mosul. First and foremost, we are | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
calling on the international community to help us with that. So | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance, | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires. | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us. | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
seized some of the American kit We are not asking for weapons, but we | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark, | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century | :14:27. | :14:28. | |
boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two | :15:33. | :15:43. | |
groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns. | :15:49. | :15:56. | |
We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now If | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to | :16:28. | :16:29. | |
have to do something about it. The danger is that power will | :16:30. | :16:57. | |
spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a | :17:15. | :17:16. | |
countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
their differences or there will be problems. This provides that | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I think | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
this is the end of a rack as we know it. If anything resembling a | :17:53. | :18:01. | |
caliphate emerges, that is very destabilising for the region itself. | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
More so I would suggest than even the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
Afghanistan. At some stage, you have to assume that they will be coming | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
for us. That is correct. This is extremely dangerous. The only way | :18:18. | :18:27. | |
forward is for these political groups to talk to each other and | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
find a compromise that allows the rates of cinemas and minorities in | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
Iraq to be protected within or the rates of cinemas and minorities in | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
Iraq to be protected with an autonomous federal-state. Any | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
support for the government must be premised on that. There is no | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
military solution for this which is in during -- there is no military | :18:47. | :19:03. | |
solution for this. There must be serious political negotiation, not | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim moderates, to form a more | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
representative government. This is the last chance for Iraq. I think we | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
are all saying that that is going to need to be some major western | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
leadership to make some big decisions here for the future of the | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
region. I am concerned that after Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
quite world-weary, quite world-weary. It does not seem to be | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
giving leadership. Certainly we are not seeing that in Europe. I am | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
deeply concerned that we are not going to take the leadership role | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
that needs to be taken. These are big issues. When Britain and France | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
carved up the Middle East, they were world powers, operating as global | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
powers, and without that global leadership by somebody, this is just | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
going to get worse and worse. I think we will leave it there, thank | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
you very much. The danger is that power will | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
spread. This could grow in power. It is just under 100 days until the | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
referendum on Scottish independence. So, for once, | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
it'll be a long hot-summer But the campaign isn't | :20:14. | :20:15. | |
just getting heated. In places it's also | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
down-right nasty. When Scotland's best-selling author | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
announced she was giving the unionist cause a million pounds | :20:23. | :20:24. | |
this week, she received Independence supporters online, | :20:25. | :20:26. | |
so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor | :20:27. | :20:34. | |
and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so, | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
and this week he criticised Conservative ministers | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival | :20:45. | :20:46. | |
approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio, | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you | :21:01. | :21:20. | |
first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do, | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and | :22:37. | :22:38. | |
you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack, | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site. | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come | :23:21. | :23:28. | |
This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but | :23:39. | :23:46. | |
it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works, | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of | :24:11. | :24:19. | |
four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling, | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself. | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning. | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter. | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often. | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It | :25:50. | :25:56. | |
is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear? | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats. | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
all and neither is the campaign The campaign has asked questions and I | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
think it is legitimate to ask questions of the people proposing | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
such a fundamental change. People care about the economy, their jobs, | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
their families. What would happen to them if they leave the rest of the | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
United Kingdom. I think it is legitimate to ask questions. I | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
refuse to be asked of scaremongering. People deserve | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
answers. The yes campaign is equally guilty of some of the most | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you are both scaremongering. Blair | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
Jenkins, the First Minister said of the cyber nationalists, that they | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
are just Daft folk, as if they were mischievous little children. It is | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
worse than that. When you look at what they say, they are twisted | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
perhaps even evil minds. I would not disagree with his comments, but they | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
are directed at just a small number of people. The story of this | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
campaign is not the story of what people are saying on Twitter. Around | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
Scotland, lots of people are getting engaged in debate to have been tuned | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
out of the political process. Today, we have 47% support for the yes | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
campaign. The movement in the campaign is towards yes. People know | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
we have a better campaign, a vision for Scotland. The latest poll of | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
polls does not show that. Both sides, you always take the opinion | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
polls that show you in the best light. All politicians do that. | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not just negative, it is patronising. | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
You make dubious claims that Scots would be ?1400 better off by staying | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
in the union, and then you say that the kids use the money to scoff 280 | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. The fate of the nation is in your | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
hands and that is the best you can do? I think you will find that the | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
campaign is something that we are taking the message to people. Then | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
why are you talking about hotdogs? I do not. The campaign did. We are | :28:49. | :28:56. | |
taking a positive message to people across Scotland about the benefits | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
of the United Kingdom. We believe we are stronger and more secure and | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
more stable, being part of that family of nations that is the United | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
Kingdom. At the same time, we have the strange and power over things | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
like education and transport. I understand that. I am not doing the | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
issues today, I am talking about the tone of the campaign. I have one | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
very important question. Who would you supporting last night in the | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
England-Italy match? I was not watching the game. I would be | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
delighted to see England do well in this tournament. I have Argentina in | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
the office sweepstake. I have to keep some attention on them, but I | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
would be delighted to seeing Clint do well. That is because you think | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
it will help your campaign. It will annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal. | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
Now most of you probably missed last night's football match | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told. | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
and with speculation about the fitness of each political | :30:15. | :30:16. | |
party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players. | :30:17. | :30:23. | |
Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio. | :30:24. | :30:25. | |
This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football | :30:26. | :30:39. | |
stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon | :30:47. | :30:47. | |
and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
barbecue. And at Westminster they're | :30:51. | :30:52. | |
turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers. | :30:53. | :31:01. | |
We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet? | :31:07. | :31:06. | |
collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I'm afraid | :31:07. | :31:14. | |
collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and | :31:26. | :31:26. | |
vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very | :31:27. | :31:28. | |
popular since she fell out with him out how | :31:29. | :31:30. | |
to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
about him taking on him in Do you think there will be any | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any | :31:37. | :31:47. | |
swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? David Cameron has | :31:48. | :31:56. | |
also got to replace the EU commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is | :31:57. | :31:57. | |
standing down. Does he go with the favourite | :31:58. | :31:59. | |
the former health secretary Or the grassroots choice, | :32:00. | :32:01. | |
Martin Callanan, the Tories old Or does he rehabilitate | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? Do you fancy being European | :32:05. | :32:21. | |
Commissioner? I would rather be spending the money on the world s | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
poor and spending it well. Glad to hear it. Happy collecting. | :32:26. | :32:27. | |
Right, there must be some Labour stickers out there. | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
You don't want to swap Ed Balls any of the others? Can't I keep them | :32:31. | :32:38. | |
all? This is almost the perfect team. | :32:39. | :32:39. | |
There have been grumblings about the fitness of the Shadow | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
And Ed Miliband's got a kicking in Liverpool after posing | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
I'm told grown men are meeting up in pubs for sticker swaps - | :32:47. | :32:57. | |
With Danny Finkelstein - Tory peer and Times columnist, | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
He would be the card I would not want to trade. Do people want to | :33:03. | :33:14. | |
trade him in? I don't think anybody wants to trade him in at the moment. | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
He is the best person to lead the Labour party and will lead us into | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
the next election. There's been a lot about Michael Gove, and he's | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
very combative. That's been a huge strength as an education Secretary, | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
despite the fact it's brought in trouble. I would think the prime | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
minister would tell him not to get himself into peripheral battles at | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
the moment but stick to what has been successful. I haven't got Nick | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
Clegg, but I got me. Controversy amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
need to give away me in return for Nick Clegg. That would be far | :33:48. | :33:48. | |
better. There you are. Some local parties are holding | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
meetings about his leadership, but at one in Cambridge this week | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
they voted to stick with him. You have got a Euro Commissioner. | :33:56. | :34:07. | |
Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
that? What is the significance of that? Very significant. Happy | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
collecting. These beauties are popping up | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
everywhere, but sadly they won't Adam is still doing the samba around | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
Westminster as I speak. I'm joined | :34:21. | :34:30. | |
by three journalists who've been furiously swapping stickers | :34:31. | :34:32. | |
throughout the show, they certainly weren't allowed to stay up to watch | :34:33. | :34:34. | |
the football, it's Nick Watt, We will talk about Labour after the | :34:35. | :34:44. | |
break, and I want to concentrate on the Tories, but the moment, Nick, | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
senior Tories are saying privately that they might win next May. They | :34:48. | :34:56. | |
are beginning to dream the dream. So why are they doing all this | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
jockeying? I think the jockeying for the leadership is about a year old. | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
What stoped it up was when Theresa gave a speech to the conference and | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa. | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff. | :35:39. | :35:48. | |
Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more | :35:55. | :35:56. | |
popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it -- | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
political Charente. piece of political Charente and they | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe | :36:41. | :36:47. | |
brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth, | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
party, George Osborne is my man Theresa May set out her credo two | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset, | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That | :37:37. | :37:45. | |
is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :37:56. | :37:57. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking about Ed Miliband's | :38:01. | :38:10. | |
Hello and a warm welcome to your local part of the show ` | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
more nerve`shredding than any World Cup football match, | :38:15. | :38:16. | |
without the lovely Gary Lindker but hopefully no diving. | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
This school has no kitchen, so how is it going to provide free school | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
We are in Cumbria finding ott if the coalition's promises can be met | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
My guests, kicking around the week's issues, whth no | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
Labour's former Chief Whip, Newcastle MP Nick Brown and, | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
for the Conservatives, David Skelton ` the man who is trying to revive | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
Tory fortunes in the north, a job some might say that is even | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
But first, the Government s`ys 47,000 new jobs have been created | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
But this week it emerged th`t weekly earnings are continuing to fall | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
The pay packets of women in particular are down, mord than | :38:57. | :38:58. | |
Nick Brown, the Prime Minister was right at Prime Minister's Qtestions | :38:59. | :39:15. | |
this week. Employment did go faster this quarter than anywhere dlse in | :39:16. | :39:24. | |
the country. The questions to the Prime Minister asked about poverty | :39:25. | :39:32. | |
in work. Two thirds of children who are living below the povertx line | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
are in families where someone is working. Work is not the pathway out | :39:37. | :39:45. | |
of poverty here. The answer is that we need more jobs and a better | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
spread of jobs. David Skelton, on the face of its the news is next, | :39:53. | :40:03. | |
isn't it? People are not fedling the benefit of being in work. It is good | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
news that more people are in work. We have two think about the legacy | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
that the coalition was faced with. Labour were not doing enough to get | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
this done. We still had the highest unemployment in the country after 13 | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
years of Labour government. Now I think a lot is being done to make | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
sure that more businesses are created. But the government will not | :40:32. | :40:39. | |
get credit for that unless wages rise. You need a long`term growth in | :40:40. | :40:48. | |
the region. I think it is rhght to acknowledge what the governlent has | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
done to help people who are struggling. Between 2004 and 20 0, | :40:53. | :41:01. | |
the government increased thd minimum wage and took the poorest pdople out | :41:02. | :41:09. | |
of tax altogether. This is not a good use of statistics. Durhng the | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
period of the Labour governlent this area had the fastest growth of | :41:16. | :41:24. | |
any English region. There w`s an agency that focused on the `rea and | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
worked for the region. I was a regional minister and was able to | :41:31. | :41:43. | |
intervene on a number of issues Let us top about something else. | :41:44. | :41:45. | |
When the Conservatives lost their North`East seat in last month's Euro | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
elections, it was another low in the party's spiral of decline. | :41:49. | :41:50. | |
It is hard to imagine, but back in the 1970s the Tories | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
controlled big city councils like Sunderland and Newcastle, | :41:54. | :41:55. | |
while, even under Mrs Thatcher, places like Darlington and Tynemouth | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
It is all very different now, of course. | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
But the Conservative Party hs not giving up without a fight | :42:02. | :42:03. | |
and has launched a campaign to broaden its appeal in the North | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
But do not be misled by the yachts, this County Durham town has coal | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
dust in its veins and has h`d Labour MPs for almost a century | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
Maybe not the best place to hunt for potential Tories. | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
Actually, there is somewherd in Seaham that is true blue and this is | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
It has actually got hundreds of members, | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
But if you join the club, you do not have to join the Conservatives. | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
You just have to say that you are prepared to vote Tory. | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
Even that takes some guts for working`class men | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
Ask them for their views on Cameron's Conservatives, though and | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
He talks out of the back of his head, I think. | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
You can?t believe anything that he says. | :42:52. | :42:53. | |
I don't think much of him to be quite honest. | :42:54. | :42:55. | |
I think he is a waste of tile as a leader. | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
He was brought up by a millhonaire father and this sort of thing. | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
You keep going on about the food banks and things like that, but they | :43:03. | :43:10. | |
do not want to know about it, they do not even think they are there. | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
The leaders of the party, the people at the top, are lore | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
interested in being celebrities than running the country. | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
There were some who were more supportive, but even the cltb | :43:21. | :43:22. | |
chairman recognises that his party is not playing well in the North. | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
We donate a lot of money to the Conservativd Party, | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
from the Conservative Club, and we expect them to listen to us. | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
If they do not start listenhng to us, they are going to lose | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
So what concerns do members feel are being ignored? | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
Immigration certainly came tp and the north`south divide too. | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
And there was disquiet about the legacy of a missing Conserv`tive. | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
You will not find a picture of Margaret Thatcher here, | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
because the chairman says it would not go down well. | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
The irony here is that if D`ve here had managed to secure as many | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
northern voters as Maggie dhd, he would now be the Prime Mhnister | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
of a Conservative Government and not just a coalition. | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
So the Conservative brand in the North does seem to nded | :44:06. | :44:07. | |
Time, perhaps, to take specialist advice. | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
Cravens is an advertising agency in Newcastle. | :44:12. | :44:13. | |
One of its current clients hs Glasgow Rangers Football Cltb. | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
What advice would they give to another set of struggling blues | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
This is not about logos or strap lines, this is about things that | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
I think Boris Johnson in London is doing a very good job of behng | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
He appeals to people and he connects to the people in that | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
I think finding a North`East spokesperson, | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
a credible spokesperson, whether they come from the world of | :44:44. | :44:45. | |
sport or media I am not surd, would be a really positive step forward. | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
There are new brands to content with too. | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
Ted voted Conservative for 40 years, but in 2010 he joined UKIP `nd | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
in 2015 he will stand against the Tory MP in the general election | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
Attracted by his new party, repelled by his old. | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
I think that over the years, they have changed totally | :45:06. | :45:07. | |
They are not in touch with people at all. | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
Even going back to the 70s tnder Margaret Thatcher, many people did | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
not like her, but at least she came from a working`class background | :45:20. | :45:21. | |
Now you have a lot of multimillionaires who do not have | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
a clue what is happening to Joe Public. | :45:25. | :45:26. | |
There does not seem to be mtch sunshine on the horizon for the | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
On the streets and even in their own club they seem a little snookered. | :45:30. | :45:38. | |
Well let's talk about that now with my guests. | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
I am also joined by the North East's newly elected member of the | :45:42. | :45:43. | |
European Parliament, Jonathan Arnott from UKIP. | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
David Skelton, you are obviously someone who wants to revive the | :45:51. | :45:58. | |
boat. It is depressing to go to a conservative club and sea vhews like | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
that. I believe that the politics in the North East is in flux at the | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
moment. Firstly, the Labour vote is imploding. They got less thoughts in | :46:10. | :46:17. | |
the North East, they have lost the hundred and 50,000 voters. Lany | :46:18. | :46:28. | |
people are saying similar things. They said that Labour has t`ken | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
their base for granted. A ntmber of people I speak to in the north`east | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
say that Labour is not their party any more. The Liberal Democrat vote | :46:41. | :46:54. | |
has also gone. I think therd is a strong opportunity for the | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
Conservatives here. What cale across there is that people think that your | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
party is out of touch with working people. The important point is not | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
about personality, it is about using power to help working peopld. I | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
think there is an opportunity here for the Conservatives that has not | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
been around in recent decadds. They can use their power to help working | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
people in the North East. Jonathan Arnott, the policies of UKIP have | :47:24. | :47:33. | |
appealed to people but can xou replace the Conservatives? What we | :47:34. | :47:45. | |
have done in the European and local elections is finished ahead of the | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
Conservatives in most places. We took more votes than them across the | :47:50. | :47:57. | |
north`east. It is astonishing. Can you beat them in a general dlection? | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
Will people vote UKIP for government? We found that when | :48:02. | :48:13. | |
people were choosing an MP... We have to do the best we can. The | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
simple fact is that the est`blished parties are not listening to UKIP's | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
message. They are not prepared to change or do anything about it. | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
While they continue being arrogant and ignoring the needs and wishes of | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
working`class voters they whll still find a problem with support. This is | :48:36. | :48:45. | |
a problem for Labour as well. Some people have said that they have | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
become the party of the middle`class, not the working class. | :48:49. | :48:56. | |
There is a truth in that. There is also some sense in the consdrvative | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
renewal at the attempt to rdbuild support in the north. I think it | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
will be a long time before people forget that Margaret Thatchdr used | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
the police against the miners and start people in shipyards. But the | :49:12. | :49:21. | |
decline of only happened after Margaret Thatcher left office. But | :49:22. | :49:30. | |
when we needed help she would not help us and she kind her back on us. | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
People will not forget that. But you will accept there is a challenge for | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
Labour because working`class people are also moving away from your | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
party. It is important that we engage with the people that we | :49:48. | :49:55. | |
expect to support us. If Labour turns its back on working`class | :49:56. | :50:05. | |
people it will be a problem. I do not think that we have done this. I | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
work hard to service the nedds of my constituency. The Labour Party is | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
resilient in the north`east because other members of Parliament... This | :50:18. | :50:27. | |
is a 20 year decline. What hs the silver bullet? It has to be seen as | :50:28. | :50:36. | |
the party of job creation and economic renewal. Labour had 13 | :50:37. | :50:44. | |
years in power and the problems were still there when they left hn 2 10. | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
The Conservative Party has to be seen as the party that is about | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
restoring the north`east. It is about ensuring their jobs are | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
created. David Cameron would say that you are doing that now. They | :51:01. | :51:08. | |
are doing it now. But they `re making a complete mess of it. Let us | :51:09. | :51:20. | |
focus on the Conservatives. There is rather growth in the north`dast I | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
think it is important that the seen as the party of economic growth and | :51:27. | :51:36. | |
job creation. They should bd seen to devolve power to the north`dast The | :51:37. | :51:45. | |
Conservatives should also t`ke part in education reform. Jonath`n | :51:46. | :51:54. | |
Arnott, the new think it is odd that your party can appeal to | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
working`class people with a wealthy in? But some of our members come | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
from council estates. The whole point of UKIP is that the appeal to | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
people from all different sorts of backgrounds. Because we had people | :52:13. | :52:20. | |
at the top of our party who are from working class backgrounds they | :52:21. | :52:21. | |
understand. Now to one | :52:22. | :52:23. | |
of the most mouth`watering policies from the coalition ` | :52:24. | :52:25. | |
a pledge to introduce free school lunches for every child in hnfant | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
school from September this xear A hot healthy meal, it is claimed, | :52:29. | :52:30. | |
will give every child But it is proving quite | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
a logistical challenge to ddliver. In Cumbria, | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
the local authority delivers just That will rise to more | :52:39. | :52:39. | |
than 15,000 in September. And despite of more than ?1 million | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
from the Government, there `re still worries over exactly how sole | :52:45. | :52:47. | |
of the meals will be providdd. 200 dinners a day are made ` day | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
in Deaton at Robert Ferguson I like them because they ard cooked | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
and very nice, because the dinner ladies are kind to you all the time | :52:57. | :53:03. | |
and it means having a proper meal I like all the puddings, | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
because they make them But in September, | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
staff are expecting to deliver 00 daily dinners because the government | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
wants all infant school children to Schools are under | :53:21. | :53:22. | |
pressure to prepare. Like so many initiatives th`t come | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
into schools, where head te`chers have to do a professional job of | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
implementing them, this particular one does feel rushed and it does | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
feel that not only schools but local authorities have had to hotfoot it | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
to work out where to deploy the But in essence I think it is | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
a good policy. Across the region, | :53:48. | :53:56. | |
an estimated 36,000 more school children will be entitled to free | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
school meals from this Septdmber. Stockton says they are expecting to | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
provide 5,500 extra meals, Durham is planning for 5,000, and in Gateshead | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
and Northumberland it is 2,000 each. But Cumbria faces | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
the biggest challenge. At the moment, | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
the county council delivers more That will rise to more | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
than 15,000 this autumn. They have been given a Government | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
grant of more than a million pounds to pay for new kitchen equipment | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
and small alterations. But that will not pay | :54:30. | :54:31. | |
for big dining room extensions or The Government has determindd | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
the amount of money that Culbria I'm sympathetic to a lot of the | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
schools, but I'm afraid that does We will try to work the schools | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
as much as we can, and we will try to mitigate anything | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
that is going on, but we do not have For Fairfield Primary School | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
in Cockermouth, the autumn term At the moment, | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
all pupils eat packed lunchds. But Nick Clegg's policy is | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
for hot meals. We are going to have to havd meals | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
transported in ` To work with some companies | :55:09. | :55:11. | |
and schools that can producd hot school meals and have them | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
transported to our site. Our long`term vision is that | :55:17. | :55:18. | |
hopefully, at some point in time, we will have | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
our own hot kitchen on`site. If there are problems, | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
the message is not to stay silent. I have been talking to a lot | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
of schools and most Those who have had difficult issues, | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
we have managed to find solttions In some cases, | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
there is a financial issue and it is just a case of thd county | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
council approaching the Govdrnment and saying that this has become | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
difficult for us and I'm 100 percent A few heads | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
in Cumbria doubt the value of the free meal policy, but they are | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
less confident about the tilescale. Moving | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
from party conference announcement to plates on tables in under | :55:54. | :55:54. | |
a year is proving a tall order. Nick Brown, I know we have talked | :55:55. | :56:11. | |
about this. The coalition h`s made a pledge and is delivering it. It is | :56:12. | :56:20. | |
impressive, isn't it? It was labour who first proposed the schele. David | :56:21. | :56:27. | |
Cameron has reintroduced wh`t Labour piloted. I think it is a good idea. | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
They made a political agreelent first and then looked at thd | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
practical consequences and realise that some of the schools cotld not | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
do it. These problems need to be sorted out. David Skelton, hs this | :56:45. | :56:52. | |
the kind of thing that will broaden coalition appeal or is it ghving | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
free food to people who can afford it with Mac it is an excelldnt | :56:57. | :57:13. | |
policy. Having a hot meal hdlps educational performance. Thdre have | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
been studies that showed thhs is the case. But people from deprived areas | :57:18. | :57:28. | |
get free meals anyway. That is not the point. It is saving pardnts | :57:29. | :57:36. | |
money. But you talk about the severity and cutting public spending | :57:37. | :57:43. | |
but you are giving free meals to children whose parents can `fford | :57:44. | :57:52. | |
it. This is an important policy to improve educational attainmdnt. It | :57:53. | :58:03. | |
is focused... But it is being rushed through. I don't think it is being | :58:04. | :58:11. | |
rushed through. Idea of nothce was given. It is a very progressive | :58:12. | :58:20. | |
policy that I think everyond should get the hind. But money was spent on | :58:21. | :58:31. | |
free schools when it could have been given to build kitchens. Is it not a | :58:32. | :58:44. | |
good idea? The argument is nutrition. The evidence that is | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
available to the government is that young people perform better with a | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
hot meal inside of them rather than a pact lunch. I think it is a good | :58:55. | :59:02. | |
argument for continuing the policy. Now, a look at what else has been | :59:03. | :59:04. | |
going on this week ` including the first ever lo`n | :59:05. | :59:07. | |
from a local council to the NHS With that and the rest of the news, | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
here is Mark Denten. Firms bidding to run the | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
East Coast Main Line are behng urged to put on direct trains | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
from Middlesbrough to London. Research by Tees Valley Unlhmited | :59:20. | :59:21. | |
claims it would be worth ne`rly ?50 million a year to | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
the region?s economy. Northumbria Country Council is to | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
make a loan of ?114 million to Northumbria Health Care will use | :59:28. | :59:30. | |
the money to end its PFI contract The Trust says the move will | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
save around ?3.5 million a xear The Prime Minister says cre`ting | :59:35. | :59:42. | |
more jobs in the North East is the Shockingly, | :59:43. | :59:45. | |
one in three children in thd North Significantly, two out of three | :59:46. | :59:52. | |
young people who are living in households now. And finally your MPs | :59:53. | :00:04. | |
will get a chance to put thdir own bills forward to the Commons, after | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
coming eighth and eleventh hn the But there is no guarantee they | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
will get debated in the Comlons And just time to fit in one more | :00:14. | :00:23. | |
from a boisterous Question Time Labour's Ronnie Campbell was | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
in trouble with the Speaker after interrupting the | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
Prime Minister one time too many. That is what is happening, | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
but above all... Mr Campbell, | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
when you are eating curry...order! When you are eating curry in the | :00:35. | :00:36. | |
Kennington Tandoori you do not yell across the restaurant, so do not | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
yell across the floor of thhs house! Ronnie Campbell getting a thcking, | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
or should that be a tikka`ing, off. Anyway, sounds like he might | :00:44. | :00:51. | |
get poppadoms for life. We are back, and just as sphcy, | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
on BBC One next Sunday. For now, do follow me on Twhtter | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
and enjoy the football. It is back to Andrew for thd rest | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
of this week's programme. There are big changes afoot | :01:01. | :01:12. | |
in the EU following last month's European elections, | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
not least who'll get the top job But | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
behind the scenes the parties have also been jockeying for position as | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
they try to form the big groups that And UKIP seems to have been | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
struggling to keep its influence Here's Adam to explain | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
how it all works. If you want your party to be a big | :01:29. | :01:41. | |
cheese in the European Parliament, you need to form a political group. | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
By doing this, the party gets more money, more positions on committees | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
and even more speaking rights in the chamber. But the parliament's rules | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
are strict. And to form a group you need a group of 25 MPs from at least | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
seven different countries. For UKIP, the number of MEPs will not be a | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
problem because they already have 24 of their own, but the different | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
nationalities are more of a challenge. Nigel Farage was not | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
helped by the Tories stealing - stealing his former Danish and | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
Finnish allies, and the pen pinching his Italian charms. Nigel needs a | :02:19. | :02:26. | |
new charm and fast. He has already signed up Lithuania's order and | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
justice, a free citizen from Prague, and the Dutchman from the reformed | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
political party. The big signing was the 17 members of the Italian Beppe | :02:36. | :02:43. | |
Griego's 5-star movement, but it leaves UKIP short of two more | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
international powers, and with the clock ticking, it looks like his | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
hopes resting on the Swedish Democrats and the Polish new right | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
Congress. They both make their decisions next week. | :02:54. | :03:01. | |
What is the latest? UKIP have enough MEPs with their pals, but they need | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
seven countries, as I understand it. They are not there yet. They are | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
wrapped five countries and need another two. UKIP are being quite | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
buoyant and say they will be meeting MEPs from five countries next week | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
and are pretty confident they will get those countries, but as Adam was | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
saying, the problem UKIP have had is that the Conservatives have nicked | :03:25. | :03:33. | |
two of the parties. That is why they have been struggling, but they say | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
they are confident they will do it. Meanwhile, the Tories new best | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
friends are the German Eurosceptic party, which has put Mrs Merkel s | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
nose out of joint, but we don't quite know whether she really cares | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
or not. I think Cameron has played his hand badly since he committed to | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
pulling out of the EBP. And he should be in there with Angela | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
Merkel and if he needs to make a major renegotiation, he needs to | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
have the Germans onside. Instead there is a breakaway party and its | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
like supporting UKIP. His party are supporting her worst enemy. It | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
certainly causing him a lot of problems, and undermines his | :04:23. | :04:24. | |
negotiating position, but isn't there an honesty that the | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
centre-right group is explicitly Federalist, and the Tories are | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
anything but, so they came out, and Labour are in the Socialist group, | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
which is explicitly Federalist, and they are not Federalist either. If | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
you want support and influence in Europe, you have to trade, and he | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
hasn't done this well. The whole business with who will be the next | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
president, he needs Angela Merkel's support. Without that, it won't | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
happen. He should have been trading behind-the-scenes, but he has | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
exposed himself in public, and if he doesn't win it looks uncertain, and | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
he will be in a position where he has to go back to his own party and | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
say they are not getting anywhere. That is dangerous and takes us | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
closer to the Exeter, which I don't think would want. The danger for Mr | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
Cameron is if it is the president of the commission, he will save you | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
cannot stop a federalist becoming head of the European commission | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
what chance do you have of repatriating lots of powers back to | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
London. There are lots of Tory MPs dying to make the argument. My hunch | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
is that he won't make it. There are too many countries opposed to his | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
presidency and even the country notionally in favour of it, Germany, | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
is failing in youth -- enthusiasm. Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
in to the Brits this. Her own side once it as well, though some reason | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
the German media says it. When she tried to reach out and said to look | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
at the other candidates, she got such abuse on the right wing press | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
from her own country and party she had to retreat. Janan is right that | :06:14. | :06:23. | |
there is opposition to Juncker, but as long as Cameron turns it into an | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
argument about Britain and Europe, he will strengthen the hand of | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks Juncker is inappropriate. She did | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
not like the process, which was a power grab by the European | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
Parliament, but when David Cameron went to the council and said that if | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
I don't get my way, we could leave the EU, that led to the backlash, | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
most significantly from the SPD in Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
David Cameron had made the argument that Juncker is bad for Europe, then | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
he would have found his natural allies would have felt more | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
comfortable following behind. Enough Europe. I want to show you a | :07:07. | :07:14. | |
picture. See what you think of this. When I saw that picture, I thought | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
it was so ludicrous that it had to have been photo shop. Discuss. He is | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
holding it with a certain disdain, looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
picture for Ed Miliband. His strength is authenticity, sincerity | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
and cleverness. And he blows all of that. He was the one who took on | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
Murdoch, very bravely and dangerously, and one, really. Now | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
there he is supporting Murdoch's son. It's a big mistake, not just in | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
Liverpool, where obviously they are particularly incensed. And then he | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
apologises. Sort of apologises and understands why Liverpool feels | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
upset. But it is a fundamental error and I hope he learns from this, that | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
he must absolutely stay true to himself. That's all he's got going | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
for him. Who do we blame? His advisers or himself? In the end | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
himself. Nobody forced him to do it. On this one, he called it wrong | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
It's a sign of the rather the bridal state of the Labour Party is that | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
his candidates were vocal in attacking him doing this. It's a | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
sign of how readable Ed Miliband is at Parliamentary level. I don't | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
think you should have apologised. The mistake he made was associating | :08:42. | :08:50. | |
himself with that newspaper. The mistake was the prior three years | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
when he went too far as portraying the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
He made a case against phone hacking and offences in that regard without | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
going as far as he did with the rhetoric. To do that, and then pose | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
with the Sun newspaper, the juxtaposition is what did for him, | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
not the mere fact of posing with it. Maybe he did not know what he was | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
doing because we were told he doesn't read the British | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
newspapers. It was football, and he has posed with the Sun newspaper | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg posed as well. But with the Sun | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
newspaper and football, you tread carefully. That was the mistake You | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
get the impression from the picture that he looks so uncomfortable that | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
you wonder whether there was a full process of consultation that went on | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
within his media operation, within his political operation. Was he | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
fully aware of what would happen question what he looks so incredibly | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
uncomfortable. But at the end of the day, leaders have to take | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
responsibility. It is cultural as well. That picture says, I am down | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
there with the football blokes and you think, you are not. That is not | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
what people will vote for. Be yourself and don't pretend to be | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
something else because it never works. But the polls suggest that | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
the British voters don't yet see Ed Miliband as prime ministerial. The | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
worst thing you can then do is get involved in stunts that are more | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
likely to reinforce that idea than counter it. There was a precedent | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
for it in the last parliament which was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
a populist touch. He did it by telling the contents of his iPod. | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred because he was trying too hard. Not | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all the other leaders have done it. At | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
the moment he more vulnerable. Yes, and he is less popular than his | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
party. Labour has quite a popular brand, in a resilient way, in a way | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
they don't with the Tories, yet their leader is a personal problem. | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
The pressure is on him to do stunts like this. Will there be a shadow | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to get the cabinet reshuffle out of the | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
way first, and that might come next week, maybe by the time of the | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
summer recess, but the first thing that the prime Minister do is work | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
out who is the UK candidate for the European Commissioner. Is it not the | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
case probably that Ed Balls is becoming semi-detached from the Ed | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
Miliband project? I don't think entirely. Nothing gets agreed | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
without both of the end are green. Ed Balls is controversial. He has | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
great pluses and minuses and is a big figure. Labour doesn't have that | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
many big figures. It's quite hard to think who would be a heavy hitter as | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
a possible Chancellor. He is a convincing chancellor to the future, | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
Love him. He has the heft -- love him or hate him. Any possibility Ed | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
Balls could be moved as shadow chancellor? The timing is convenient | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
because the Scottish referendum ends in the autumn and Alistair Darling | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
becomes a free man, win or lose I don't think Ed Balls will be removed | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
because moving him would be an admission that everything the Labour | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
Party said about the economy to the preceding four years has been a | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
mistake. And you can't do that nine months before a general election. | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
You invite ridicule. But relations between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
not great at the moment. The Ed Miliband team are very, very | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
suspicious of this new love in between Ed Balls and Peter | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say that he spotted the Ed Balls talents | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
in the original place and appointed him to the Gordon Brown team after | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
the disaster of 1992. But things obviously went awry, and now Ed | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue Rappaport, and that is with enormous | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
suspicion -- they have a new Rappaport. With good reason because | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
it's about policy. It's about the attitude towards business. Should | :12:51. | :12:52. | |
they be out there saying they will get the tax dodgers, Starbucks, | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
Vodafone, are we going to take on business in a big way? In a way that | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
Ed Miliband has quite bravely said. On the other hand, Ed Balls and | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on, we only won in 1997 by being | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
business friendly. Sorry to rush you. We are running out of time | :13:11. | :13:12. | |
The Daily Politics will be back every day this week at midday, | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
and I'll be back here next Sunday when I'll be joined | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
by the shadow work and pensions secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:23. | :13:54. | |
Magnificent. The power base of medieval England. | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
Charles' ceiling was a piece of breathtaking arrogance. | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
You get a sense of the people who made the palaces. | :14:06. | :14:13. | |
as I unlock the secrets of Britain's great palaces. | :14:14. | :14:17. |