29/06/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


29/06/2014

With Richard Moss. Andrew Neil is joined by Europe Minister David Lidington, Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Lib Dem Charles Kennedy to discuss David Cameron's EU defeat.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 29/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.

:00:38.:00:48.

But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?

:00:49.:00:51.

Doctors want to ban smoking outright.

:00:52.:00:54.

A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all

:00:55.:00:57.

Could Teesside get its own Boris Johnson?

:00:58.:01:11.

And old trains, run`down stations and poor journey

:01:12.:01:14.

times ` can the Government get rail services back on track?

:01:15.:01:28.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

:01:29.:01:31.

panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

:01:32.:01:42.

They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in

:01:43.:01:45.

Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence

:01:46.:01:47.

He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made

:01:48.:01:49.

it big in the world of European politic.

:01:50.:01:51.

I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg

:01:52.:01:55.

He'll soon be President of the European Commission,

:01:56.:01:59.

He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.

:02:00.:02:05.

But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up

:02:06.:02:09.

on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.

:02:10.:02:24.

-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist

:02:25.:02:27.

So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes

:02:28.:02:29.

of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?

:02:30.:02:32.

Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington

:02:33.:02:37.

Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr

:02:38.:02:44.

Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got

:02:45.:02:47.

harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The

:02:48.:02:52.

majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts

:02:53.:02:57.

power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right

:02:58.:03:02.

cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European

:03:03.:03:09.

Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European

:03:10.:03:18.

countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of

:03:19.:03:21.

Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on

:03:22.:03:24.

how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the

:03:25.:03:27.

mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming

:03:28.:03:32.

European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The

:03:33.:03:37.

Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to

:03:38.:03:44.

integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.

:03:45.:03:49.

What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at

:03:50.:03:53.

different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new

:03:54.:04:02.

Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the

:04:03.:04:12.

approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime

:04:13.:04:17.

Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general

:04:18.:04:20.

acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to

:04:21.:04:25.

the single currency will want to press forward with closer

:04:26.:04:29.

integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country

:04:30.:04:34.

in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern

:04:35.:04:38.

that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with

:04:39.:04:42.

28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the

:04:43.:04:48.

extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and

:04:49.:04:53.

integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable

:04:54.:04:56.

geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is

:04:57.:05:01.

that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the

:05:02.:05:04.

slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which

:05:05.:05:10.

backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that

:05:11.:05:23.

there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to

:05:24.:05:27.

seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the

:05:28.:05:29.

election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the

:05:30.:05:34.

British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the

:05:35.:05:37.

British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will

:05:38.:05:40.

take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron

:05:41.:05:43.

secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,

:05:44.:05:48.

not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with

:05:49.:05:53.

Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't

:05:54.:05:59.

think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of

:06:00.:06:03.

reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do

:06:04.:06:11.

put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission

:06:12.:06:23.

to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers

:06:24.:06:28.

around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things

:06:29.:06:32.

cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger

:06:33.:06:36.

of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of

:06:37.:06:40.

work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of

:06:41.:06:43.

countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election

:06:44.:06:46.

results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing

:06:47.:06:51.

parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing

:06:52.:06:53.

real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch

:06:54.:07:01.

decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the

:07:02.:07:05.

condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would

:07:06.:07:11.

have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.

:07:12.:07:17.

Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role

:07:18.:07:20.

in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed

:07:21.:07:28.

up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from

:07:29.:07:32.

that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I

:07:33.:07:37.

think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and

:07:38.:07:40.

it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament

:07:41.:07:45.

to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.

:07:46.:07:50.

They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are

:07:51.:07:55.

the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms

:07:56.:08:02.

of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The

:08:03.:08:08.

current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The

:08:09.:08:15.

Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?

:08:16.:08:20.

We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at

:08:21.:08:25.

the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on

:08:26.:08:28.

whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you

:08:29.:08:38.

think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but

:08:39.:08:41.

also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't

:08:42.:08:46.

challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.

:08:47.:08:51.

Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of

:08:52.:08:55.

State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the

:08:56.:08:58.

existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He

:08:59.:09:02.

doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is

:09:03.:09:06.

the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the

:09:07.:09:09.

position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a

:09:10.:09:16.

distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government

:09:17.:09:22.

now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and

:09:23.:09:24.

the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that

:09:25.:09:29.

important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and

:09:30.:09:33.

that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a

:09:34.:09:37.

whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going

:09:38.:09:44.

to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in

:09:45.:09:49.

2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For

:09:50.:09:53.

one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press

:09:54.:09:56.

ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done

:09:57.:10:00.

in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain

:10:01.:10:06.

outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of

:10:07.:10:10.

migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this

:10:11.:10:13.

week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will

:10:14.:10:17.

you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the

:10:18.:10:21.

government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the

:10:22.:10:24.

election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg

:10:25.:10:31.

speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,

:10:32.:10:36.

more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is

:10:37.:10:40.

all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's

:10:41.:10:43.

not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in

:10:44.:10:48.

the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries

:10:49.:10:54.

those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories

:10:55.:10:58.

and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,

:10:59.:11:02.

will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and

:11:03.:11:05.

perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank

:11:06.:11:13.

you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there

:11:14.:11:17.

is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring

:11:18.:11:21.

back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I

:11:22.:11:25.

think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,

:11:26.:11:30.

those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay

:11:31.:11:33.

regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on

:11:34.:11:36.

renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would

:11:37.:11:41.

vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20

:11:42.:11:45.

years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only

:11:46.:11:49.

stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be

:11:50.:11:53.

re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the

:11:54.:12:00.

referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single

:12:01.:12:03.

biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not

:12:04.:12:08.

what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure

:12:09.:12:13.

to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against

:12:14.:12:17.

Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr

:12:18.:12:21.

Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only

:12:22.:12:25.

because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these

:12:26.:12:30.

changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that

:12:31.:12:33.

would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the

:12:34.:12:39.

biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of

:12:40.:12:44.

coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of

:12:45.:12:52.

benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of

:12:53.:12:54.

movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is

:12:55.:12:58.

a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is

:12:59.:13:02.

also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was

:13:03.:13:05.

encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not

:13:06.:13:10.

say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted

:13:11.:13:14.

in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The

:13:15.:13:17.

fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when

:13:18.:13:28.

he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling

:13:29.:13:31.

to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela

:13:32.:13:34.

Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the

:13:35.:13:36.

European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,

:13:37.:13:40.

he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this

:13:41.:13:44.

basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was

:13:45.:13:47.

presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there

:13:48.:13:51.

was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I

:13:52.:13:56.

understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.

:13:57.:13:59.

I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that

:14:00.:14:05.

he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his

:14:06.:14:10.

backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They

:14:11.:14:14.

don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to

:14:15.:14:17.

draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that

:14:18.:14:21.

sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to

:14:22.:14:24.

Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people

:14:25.:14:28.

will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on

:14:29.:14:33.

Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for

:14:34.:14:40.

immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who

:14:41.:14:42.

John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is

:14:43.:14:44.

replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by

:14:45.:14:48.

arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by

:14:49.:14:51.

staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would

:14:52.:15:12.

leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common

:15:13.:15:16.

foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims

:15:17.:15:24.

which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change

:15:25.:15:26.

anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of

:15:27.:15:35.

these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants

:15:36.:15:40.

to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the

:15:41.:15:44.

chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,

:15:45.:15:49.

doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big

:15:50.:15:57.

things to get through first in domestic politics before we even

:15:58.:16:03.

reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom

:16:04.:16:07.

this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,

:16:08.:16:13.

are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to

:16:14.:16:18.

be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they

:16:19.:16:23.

going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the

:16:24.:16:28.

sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK

:16:29.:16:33.

stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David

:16:34.:16:38.

Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a

:16:39.:16:42.

danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes

:16:43.:16:50.

correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press

:16:51.:16:54.

comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold

:16:55.:16:59.

Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to

:17:00.:17:04.

say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is

:17:05.:17:08.

different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it

:17:09.:17:14.

cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government

:17:15.:17:18.

to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land

:17:19.:17:24.

will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on

:17:25.:17:28.

the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European

:17:29.:17:34.

Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the

:17:35.:17:38.

line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting

:17:39.:17:42.

dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will

:17:43.:17:54.

not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.

:17:55.:18:00.

If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is

:18:01.:18:05.

working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority

:18:06.:18:10.

of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see

:18:11.:18:14.

there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined

:18:15.:18:20.

ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had

:18:21.:18:24.

about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it

:18:25.:18:31.

is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a

:18:32.:18:34.

referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious

:18:35.:18:40.

consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking

:18:41.:18:46.

about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people

:18:47.:18:51.

to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his

:18:52.:18:57.

party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a

:18:58.:19:02.

whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything

:19:03.:19:06.

we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future

:19:07.:19:11.

integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are

:19:12.:19:15.

upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being

:19:16.:19:20.

passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are

:19:21.:19:25.

prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in

:19:26.:19:29.

charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into

:19:30.:19:34.

which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence

:19:35.:19:40.

Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib

:19:41.:19:50.

Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what

:19:51.:19:54.

the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the

:19:55.:19:58.

choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political

:19:59.:20:02.

leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we

:20:03.:20:07.

went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the

:20:08.:20:12.

individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I

:20:13.:20:17.

mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his

:20:18.:20:22.

views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a

:20:23.:20:29.

small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of

:20:30.:20:34.

America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is

:20:35.:20:44.

really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we

:20:45.:20:56.

closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the

:20:57.:21:02.

idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers

:21:03.:21:11.

back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly

:21:12.:21:19.

been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that

:21:20.:21:24.

has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are

:21:25.:21:29.

we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship

:21:30.:21:33.

with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or

:21:34.:21:46.

another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on

:21:47.:21:50.

and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can

:21:51.:21:54.

remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the

:21:55.:21:59.

referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it

:22:00.:22:05.

sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is

:22:06.:22:10.

a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we

:22:11.:22:17.

will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to

:22:18.:22:27.

ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I

:22:28.:22:32.

thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the

:22:33.:22:36.

Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional

:22:37.:22:43.

implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to

:22:44.:22:47.

established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we

:22:48.:22:55.

mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the

:22:56.:22:58.

institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by

:22:59.:23:04.

federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate

:23:05.:23:11.

but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains

:23:12.:23:14.

national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it

:23:15.:23:23.

makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the

:23:24.:23:27.

Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU

:23:28.:23:38.

wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you

:23:39.:23:42.

liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to

:23:43.:23:49.

you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be

:23:50.:23:52.

disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only

:23:53.:23:58.

had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,

:23:59.:24:03.

France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of

:24:04.:24:10.

menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the

:24:11.:24:15.

North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an

:24:16.:24:23.

army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms

:24:24.:24:33.

of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you

:24:34.:24:37.

can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having

:24:38.:24:41.

the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the

:24:42.:24:46.

United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,

:24:47.:24:52.

Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is

:24:53.:24:58.

an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want

:24:59.:25:03.

to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a

:25:04.:25:07.

referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he

:25:08.:25:23.

was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and

:25:24.:25:28.

restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw

:25:29.:25:31.

everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born

:25:32.:25:37.

after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those

:25:38.:25:41.

plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British

:25:42.:25:48.

was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men

:25:49.:25:53.

smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a

:25:54.:25:58.

political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in

:25:59.:26:02.

those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,

:26:03.:26:12.

more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that

:26:13.:26:17.

thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in

:26:18.:26:28.

enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately

:26:29.:26:32.

we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think

:26:33.:26:38.

it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has

:26:39.:26:44.

improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.

:26:45.:26:48.

Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on

:26:49.:26:54.

those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the

:26:55.:26:59.

introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride

:27:00.:27:06.

in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.

:27:07.:27:19.

We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson

:27:20.:27:22.

from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban

:27:23.:27:25.

on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark

:27:26.:27:29.

They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are

:27:30.:27:38.

bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in

:27:39.:27:48.

our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as

:27:49.:27:52.

children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start

:27:53.:27:57.

smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for

:27:58.:28:02.

you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we

:28:03.:28:06.

totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make

:28:07.:28:11.

that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol

:28:12.:28:16.

eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is

:28:17.:28:20.

totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes

:28:21.:28:25.

which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping

:28:26.:28:28.

children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops

:28:29.:28:34.

shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so

:28:35.:28:39.

you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a

:28:40.:28:45.

36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you

:28:46.:28:50.

will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the

:28:51.:28:54.

younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily

:28:55.:28:58.

addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this

:28:59.:29:04.

becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you

:29:05.:29:09.

would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have

:29:10.:29:13.

no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if

:29:14.:29:17.

we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2

:29:18.:29:23.

years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't

:29:24.:29:28.

have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their

:29:29.:29:32.

20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes

:29:33.:29:36.

the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting

:29:37.:29:39.

cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get

:29:40.:29:46.

better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is

:29:47.:29:56.

going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.

:29:57.:30:01.

Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see

:30:02.:30:05.

adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is

:30:06.:30:09.

for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop

:30:10.:30:14.

young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they

:30:15.:30:17.

never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds

:30:18.:30:28.

who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government

:30:29.:30:33.

increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to

:30:34.:30:37.

18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,

:30:38.:30:43.

we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal

:30:44.:30:46.

says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a

:30:47.:30:52.

motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There

:30:53.:30:55.

is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they

:30:56.:30:59.

doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not

:31:00.:31:03.

about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and

:31:04.:31:06.

they have to get their act together because they are bringing the

:31:07.:31:10.

medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about

:31:11.:31:15.

things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,

:31:16.:31:20.

but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes

:31:21.:31:22.

altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s

:31:23.:31:28.

not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to

:31:29.:31:33.

smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would

:31:34.:31:37.

be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So

:31:38.:31:44.

even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,

:31:45.:31:47.

just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the

:31:48.:31:54.

habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so

:31:55.:31:58.

that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so

:31:59.:32:02.

important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One

:32:03.:32:06.

thing you will find is that throughout the world people is

:32:07.:32:09.

looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and

:32:10.:32:13.

different countries like Australia, they were the first with a

:32:14.:32:17.

standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all

:32:18.:32:20.

of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the

:32:21.:32:26.

tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with

:32:27.:32:30.

cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going

:32:31.:32:33.

head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal

:32:34.:32:37.

representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "

:32:38.:32:41.

So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?

:32:42.:32:43.

Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,

:32:44.:32:45.

but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what

:32:46.:32:48.

parliament might look like after the next year's general election.

:32:49.:32:49.

Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to

:32:50.:32:56.

Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of

:32:57.:32:59.

Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010

:33:00.:33:05.

more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but

:33:06.:33:09.

not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.

:33:10.:33:17.

Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female

:33:18.:33:23.

MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and

:33:24.:33:30.

the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have

:33:31.:33:34.

selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and

:33:35.:33:37.

to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been

:33:38.:33:40.

trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts

:33:41.:33:45.

and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the

:33:46.:33:50.

all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the

:33:51.:33:55.

whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long

:33:56.:33:58.

way to go on the issue of being representative. So we

:33:59.:34:10.

way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack

:34:11.:34:11.

of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.

:34:12.:34:11.

In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they

:34:12.:34:43.

got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%

:34:44.:34:49.

The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy

:34:50.:34:51.

at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most

:34:52.:34:54.

marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn

:34:55.:34:56.

In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected

:34:57.:35:00.

If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones

:35:01.:35:05.

they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.

:35:06.:35:09.

The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won

:35:10.:35:12.

at the last election, if they manage that, they would have

:35:13.:35:15.

However all the indications are it could be

:35:16.:35:20.

a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform

:35:21.:35:24.

swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.

:35:25.:35:29.

One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all

:35:30.:35:33.

options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is

:35:34.:35:36.

The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at

:35:37.:35:51.

evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life

:35:52.:35:58.

experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.

:35:59.:36:01.

They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be

:36:02.:36:03.

represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary

:36:04.:36:07.

projection for gender, According to the last census

:36:08.:36:09.

in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from

:36:10.:36:15.

black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they

:36:16.:36:20.

get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party

:36:21.:36:24.

were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME

:36:25.:36:28.

candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,

:36:29.:36:35.

that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats

:36:36.:36:38.

don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling

:36:39.:36:47.

on to their current number of seats they would have two,

:36:48.:36:52.

giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost

:36:53.:36:55.

their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix

:36:56.:36:57.

of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve

:36:58.:37:07.

the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to

:37:08.:37:09.

a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford

:37:10.:37:13.

or Cambridge. Only a fifth

:37:14.:37:22.

of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with

:37:23.:37:29.

the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like

:37:30.:37:33.

us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they

:37:34.:37:36.

cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the

:37:37.:37:41.

turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20

:37:42.:37:44.

points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and

:37:45.:37:47.

that is getting worse with single election.

:37:48.:37:49.

And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a

:37:50.:37:52.

Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get

:37:53.:37:55.

It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:56.:38:04.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:05.:38:07.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.

:38:08.:38:11.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:38:12.:38:20.

Hello and a warm welcome to your local part of the show.

:38:21.:38:22.

We're talking trains this wdek ` and taking a journey in West Culbria.

:38:23.:38:26.

Passenger groups say lines like this are being neglected with old

:38:27.:38:30.

Does the Government have a plan to do something about it

:38:31.:38:35.

Who better to ask than the Transport Minister ` Scarborough and Whitby

:38:36.:38:39.

Conservative MP Robert Goodwill ` he's with me in the studio.

:38:40.:38:42.

With him, a member of Labour's Treasury team, Newcastle North's

:38:43.:38:45.

But let's start with a new transport project ` High Speed Rail.

:38:46.:38:52.

The Chancellor George Osborne this week floated the idea of HS3,

:38:53.:38:55.

But just like HS2 from London to Birmingham, it wouldn't go

:38:56.:39:01.

That's not good enough according to Cumbrian MP Tim Farron who wants

:39:02.:39:06.

a more ambitious plan ` including a high speed line

:39:07.:39:09.

Robert Goodwill, another high`speed rail link which is not coming

:39:10.:39:27.

anywhere near us. That is not true. Because HS2 will go up to Bhrmingham

:39:28.:39:34.

then form a Y `` a Y and cole to us. The trains will keep going tp

:39:35.:39:45.

through leaves of the East Coast. Another high`speed link to cross

:39:46.:39:51.

over into the Northeast? Thd Leeds and Manchester conurbations are two

:39:52.:39:55.

powerhouses. We have committed to electrifying the line which will

:39:56.:39:59.

have some benefits. But it hs a good idea to look at how we can love on

:40:00.:40:04.

from HS2. People in Scotland have ideas and people in Wales as well.

:40:05.:40:10.

That is decades away. We nedd to plan this. It is a major investment.

:40:11.:40:15.

We need to look at where we can move on from HS2 for better investment.

:40:16.:40:19.

The Chancellor has kicked the ball into play and we should kick it

:40:20.:40:22.

around and see what the bendfits could be. Catherine McKinnell, plans

:40:23.:40:29.

for HS3 have been welcomed by the Northeast Chamber of Commerce ``

:40:30.:40:31.

change of commerce, which you welcome them? With a caveat. They

:40:32.:40:41.

need to have benefits for the country north of Leeds. It `lmost

:40:42.:40:45.

seemed like George Osborne had completely forgotten that this

:40:46.:40:49.

reason exists. I think he h`s been trying to backpedal since the

:40:50.:40:53.

announcement on Monday. We know that HS2 has taken a long time to

:40:54.:40:57.

actually get on track. It is still not really on track. There has been

:40:58.:41:02.

delayed. There have been huge increases in the cost of th`t

:41:03.:41:07.

project. And so this talk of HS ultimately is jam tomorrow. But what

:41:08.:41:14.

Labour going to do? They had no plans and they have no plans to go

:41:15.:41:19.

beyond Leeds and Manchester? HS was a plan that was conceived under the

:41:20.:41:24.

Labour government and we have seen huge delay in getting it gohng under

:41:25.:41:30.

this government. We are going to set out our plans in the manifesto but

:41:31.:41:34.

the ball is very much in thd government's court to get a grip on

:41:35.:41:39.

HS2 rather than floating around pie in the sky idea about the ftture. We

:41:40.:41:44.

would like to see HS2 on tr`ck and see the benefits actually rdach this

:41:45.:41:47.

region which we did not hear the Chancellor even mention on Londay.

:41:48.:41:52.

He mentioned Teeside, but not in connection with the railways.

:41:53.:41:57.

Well, let's turn now to the state of our local railways

:41:58.:42:00.

which is causing serious concern among passenger groups and LPs.

:42:01.:42:02.

They point to trains that are nearly 30 years old,

:42:03.:42:05.

inaccessible stations and ldngthy journey times on the Northern Rail

:42:06.:42:07.

The Government says it'll invest ?1 billion over the next five xears

:42:08.:42:11.

in making things better ` and has started a consultathon

:42:12.:42:13.

This is the 9:38 from Carlisle to Lancaster via Barrow.

:42:14.:42:21.

There is a fast train but this is the stopping tr`in.

:42:22.:42:30.

It takes more than three and a half hours,

:42:31.:42:32.

hugging the Cumbrian coastlhne as it chugs its way West, calling at

:42:33.:42:35.

Many of the stations are by request only.

:42:36.:42:42.

There is no ticket office hdre, or even a ticket machine.

:42:43.:42:48.

You will not find any station staff and there are no public loos,

:42:49.:42:51.

Many of the trains have been in service for decades, although some

:42:52.:42:56.

Outside peak hours, they are rarely busy but regular

:42:57.:43:00.

I think there could be an extra couple of trains late in thd day,

:43:01.:43:06.

There is too big a gap between trains sometimes.

:43:07.:43:10.

Yes, basically, somewhere to have a drink and amiable.

:43:11.:43:14.

You can ask for whatever yot want, it wouldn't happen.

:43:15.:43:17.

The latest National Rail Passenger Survey suggested continuing

:43:18.:43:20.

dissatisfaction with Northern Rail, which runs the services.

:43:21.:43:24.

Just 61% of those asked were satisfidd with

:43:25.:43:27.

And only 64% said they were content with the cleanliness.

:43:28.:43:34.

Both scores are lower than the national average.

:43:35.:43:38.

Northern Rail said the figures are better than last year

:43:39.:43:40.

and it is listening to customers and continuing to improve.

:43:41.:43:44.

But among rail users, are were high hopes that whdn new

:43:45.:43:47.

franchises start in 2016, they will deliver a much`needed make over

:43:48.:43:52.

There is a crying need for new rolling stock.

:43:53.:43:58.

You go down to the south and see the difference in condition.

:43:59.:44:08.

It is vital for the economy of the area.

:44:09.:44:10.

Lots of people use trains to get to hospitals in Hexham and Newcastle

:44:11.:44:16.

For all sorts of reasons, we need a better service th`n now.

:44:17.:44:22.

The ageing rolling stock and slow services are key targets for change.

:44:23.:44:26.

Both on lines within Cumbri` and to the North East.

:44:27.:44:30.

There are three specific areas where I think there c`n

:44:31.:44:35.

One of them is the Carlisle to Newcastle route

:44:36.:44:42.

We want the trains to stop `t very small stations along the rotte, but

:44:43.:44:46.

we also want to see an exprdss line as well so there is a fast train.

:44:47.:44:49.

There needs to be substanti`l investment because

:44:50.:44:53.

the rolling stock is quite poor quality ` and of course connectivity

:44:54.:44:56.

between Cumbria, between thd east and west and the north and south.

:44:57.:44:59.

The government's consultation on rail services in the North runs

:45:00.:45:02.

But with unions and campaigners already picking holes in thd

:45:03.:45:08.

proposals, there is growing doubt that improvements that passdngers

:45:09.:45:12.

Let's get the view of the unions. Is there room for hope there whll be a

:45:13.:45:37.

big improvement? I don't sed any room for hope at all. One of the

:45:38.:45:43.

things you need to ask Robert Goodwill today is whether the

:45:44.:45:48.

trans`Pennine express services will continue to run from Scarborough in

:45:49.:45:54.

his franchise proposals. Perhaps his colleagues Tim Farron would also

:45:55.:45:57.

like to ask the DFT what is happening over the Windermere oxen

:45:58.:46:03.

home service. That is under consultation as well, that could go

:46:04.:46:12.

as well. Driver operated tr`ins `` driver only operated trains will be

:46:13.:46:16.

the future and we think that is less customer focused. And also there's a

:46:17.:46:23.

report over the horizon takhng away staff and ticket offices. And

:46:24.:46:27.

another proposal is that he was to hand over stations to local

:46:28.:46:29.

authorities which already cash`strapped. It is not workable.

:46:30.:46:35.

So ?1 billion makes no diffdrence but your solution is to put this

:46:36.:46:40.

into public hands. Out of that raise a single extra penny to improve

:46:41.:46:46.

services? I think the railw`ys cost three or four times what thdy cost

:46:47.:46:50.

under British rail when it was nationalised. The reality is that

:46:51.:46:55.

the conservatives who privatise the railways and keep restructuring

:46:56.:46:58.

them, because it is busy not working, one of the things H would

:46:59.:47:03.

say is that we can stop thel taking money out in terms of these foreign

:47:04.:47:08.

companies that run our railways The `` natural that the Dutch n`tional

:47:09.:47:16.

railways and the German railways... But how can we raise the kind of

:47:17.:47:20.

money to transform the servhces You have to have more public money. It

:47:21.:47:24.

is not a matter of who owns it, it means more investment. You can't

:47:25.:47:28.

make that argument unless you see how the railways funded at the

:47:29.:47:33.

moment. And we are thinking about three or four times normallx than

:47:34.:47:39.

British rail used. The forehgn`owned companies of Germany, Holland, the

:47:40.:47:42.

examples we have in this arda, they take money out of the area that

:47:43.:47:47.

could be used for rail investment. We already paying for the privatise

:47:48.:47:51.

railways through the taxpaydr. We are saying it could be structured

:47:52.:47:55.

better, publicly owned and publicly accountable. What we have got for

:47:56.:47:59.

the Northern and Trans Pennhne franchises bad news all round.

:48:00.:48:06.

Robert Goodwill, it is not just the RMT that are sceptical. The services

:48:07.:48:12.

need improvement. Can you pdrsuade us that you have a plan for that?

:48:13.:48:18.

Lets not forget that before the last election, there were people who were

:48:19.:48:21.

saying we were embarking on a teaching style round of cuts and all

:48:22.:48:27.

the stations would be shut down We have not done that. We have shown a

:48:28.:48:31.

commitment to keeping local services. More than that, wd have

:48:32.:48:35.

committed to a massive programme of electrification around the country

:48:36.:48:38.

which means new electric tr`ins We are committed to electrifying 6 0

:48:39.:48:44.

miles of our rail network compared to eight miles from the previous

:48:45.:48:49.

Labour government. We have ` ?3 billion package of improvemdnts to

:48:50.:48:52.

our rail network. For specific services, what can you tell people

:48:53.:48:58.

that will improve? Brisley, we have some very old rolling stock. Some of

:48:59.:49:02.

it has been improved alreadx. We have a new station in Middldsbrough.

:49:03.:49:07.

My constituents can get off at the hospital rather than travel

:49:08.:49:10.

information is rough. And I would love to have a trains starthng in

:49:11.:49:13.

Whidbey in the mornings so that people could come to work in

:49:14.:49:20.

Middlesbrough. `` in which we. `` in Whitby. There are services that will

:49:21.:49:35.

disappear, according to critics There is a service from Manchester

:49:36.:49:39.

through to York. It is whether we have a train that runs on dhesel or

:49:40.:49:43.

electric or whether we could increase the frequency of the

:49:44.:49:46.

service from Scarborough into York. Not everybody who travels there goes

:49:47.:49:50.

to Manchester. A lot of people get off and some of the complaints I get

:49:51.:49:54.

from commuters going into York is that there is only one train and

:49:55.:49:59.

hour at certain times of dax. Let's move it on. Catherine McKinnell

:50:00.:50:04.

this has built up over decades. At least the coalition have a plan

:50:05.:50:09.

What we need to see in this franchise plan is a commitmdnt, a

:50:10.:50:13.

steady timetable and a promhse that this rolling stock will not

:50:14.:50:19.

potentially be improved, but will actually be improved. These trains

:50:20.:50:24.

are 30 years old. There is no heating in the winter. They are

:50:25.:50:27.

totally inaccessible for people with mobility problems. We need to see a

:50:28.:50:32.

proper guarantee that this rolling stock is going to be improvdd as

:50:33.:50:37.

part of the franchising deal. It is all they get the moment in the

:50:38.:50:42.

government's plans. What about the planned about `` what about the idea

:50:43.:50:47.

of taking it into public ownership. Should Labour look at this? Craig

:50:48.:50:52.

raise a very important point that a number of our railways incltding the

:50:53.:50:58.

ones in Newcastle are run bx German state`owned railways. We have Dutch

:50:59.:51:02.

owned railways, French owned railways. If we were in govdrnment,

:51:03.:51:06.

we would not be rushing to put out to tender the East Coast Mahn Line

:51:07.:51:10.

which by 2015 will have rettrned ?1 billion to the taxpayer. Wh`t about

:51:11.:51:18.

other services. Would not bd rushing about `` we would be rushing for

:51:19.:51:22.

ideological reasons to put the matter to tender. Would you put them

:51:23.:51:28.

in public ownership? A statd`owned railway company could bid along with

:51:29.:51:32.

other railway companies and bade against the foreign`owned state

:51:33.:51:36.

companies to win the contract. At the moment, they are not actually

:51:37.:51:40.

allowed to do that. We would change that. A final question. Would you

:51:41.:51:44.

expect `` would you accept that there has been a huge imbal`nce in

:51:45.:51:48.

spending between the north `nd south. The figures suggest ?200 per

:51:49.:51:52.

head in London, ?5 per head in the North. Less is not forget that some

:51:53.:51:57.

of the Crossrail `` let us not forget that some of the projects Lye

:51:58.:52:03.

Cross well `` like Crossrail were planned by Labour. We bring it. We

:52:04.:52:10.

are bringing investment back to the North. We are manufacturing train

:52:11.:52:17.

plans in Sedgefield. Now London has too much powdr

:52:18.:52:21.

and cities in the north need to work together

:52:22.:52:23.

to compete with the capital. But this week it was coming

:52:24.:52:26.

from George Osborne. He wants to create a

:52:27.:52:29.

"northern powerhouse" with cities joining forces under elected mayors

:52:30.:52:31.

in the style of Boris Johnson. And he's also promised more

:52:32.:52:34.

investment in the north's science`based btsinesses

:52:35.:52:35.

` if they come up with good ideas. So how have

:52:36.:52:38.

the Chancellor's ideas gone down? Once known as I'm up a list,

:52:39.:52:51.

Middlesbrough was a powerhotse. But it has some of the highest rates of

:52:52.:52:58.

unemployment in the UK. The slow pace of regeneration here in

:52:59.:53:03.

Middlesbrough is the way thd fact that it is not in northern

:53:04.:53:07.

powerhouse. The Chancellor's solution is the choice of a Boris

:53:08.:53:11.

Johnson style elected mayor not just for that as well, but for the whole

:53:12.:53:16.

of the Teeside Valley. This man like the idea. He hopes to be

:53:17.:53:21.

Middlesbrough's mayor next xear He says a beefed up Teeside version

:53:22.:53:25.

could do much more. To have elected leaders trying to make decisions is

:53:26.:53:32.

not the best way to do it. Things will work much better if thdre is a

:53:33.:53:36.

Teeside wide body with one person at the top who is accountable `nd

:53:37.:53:42.

responsible for taking big decisions, driving investment at a

:53:43.:53:45.

level that affects everybodx, not just a tiny slice of the

:53:46.:53:50.

conurbation. Would the region's voters be enthusiastic? Although

:53:51.:53:57.

voters decided to keep their elected mayor, the three this year, voters

:53:58.:54:02.

in Hartlepool got rid of thdirs In Darlington and in Newcastle, the

:54:03.:54:05.

public have decided they did not want mayor is in charge of their

:54:06.:54:11.

communities. Some think that the Chancellor's speech is more about

:54:12.:54:14.

saving his team`mates and moving the north Bay division. He is in dire

:54:15.:54:19.

need of political traction hn the north. He knows that the Tory brand

:54:20.:54:24.

in the north and the North Dast in particular is toxic. He is doing

:54:25.:54:28.

something for those regions where he has marginal MPs. I am afrahd that

:54:29.:54:32.

the Chancellor is far too l`te and his MPs and those constituencies are

:54:33.:54:37.

on a hiding to nothing. But the Chancellor also talked about

:54:38.:54:40.

investment in cutting`edge science in places like this. Teesidd Centre

:54:41.:54:44.

for process innovation is hdlping develop the technology to ttrn

:54:45.:54:49.

rubbish into valuable fuel. It could create hundreds of jobs and he says

:54:50.:54:56.

that this man says support for innovation capacity that produce a

:54:57.:55:03.

positive reaction. We could get first`class academic capability and

:55:04.:55:06.

full`scale industrial capabhlity and infrastructure in the sites that we

:55:07.:55:09.

have. We are waiting for thdse opportunities and these jobs. With a

:55:10.:55:14.

little help, Teeside's business leaders think they could be part of

:55:15.:55:18.

a powerhouse. But they think that should include infrastructure

:55:19.:55:21.

investment here and not just between Manchester and Leeds. We want to see

:55:22.:55:26.

the opportunity for Middlesbrough to link with London, we won't

:55:27.:55:28.

Darlington to have more frepuent stops on these Coast mainline. We

:55:29.:55:34.

want is the electrification of the line through to Middlesbrough and to

:55:35.:55:38.

Teesport. So there are several things on rail that we would want

:55:39.:55:43.

but we would also lobby for whatever high`speed links are going to make

:55:44.:55:48.

sure the North East is incltded 150 years ago, Middlesbrough was at the

:55:49.:55:52.

centre of Britain's economic success. The Chancellor wants that

:55:53.:55:56.

to be true today. Has he re`lly offered anything to fuel a

:55:57.:56:13.

renaissance. Is this all data vu, Catherine McKinnell. What wd have

:56:14.:56:21.

seen from this government is four years of sustained funding, things

:56:22.:56:26.

shifted from areas in this region to areas in the south. We have seen

:56:27.:56:31.

jobs in this region decreashng as a proportion of the number of jobs in

:56:32.:56:36.

the whole economy. We have seen the North East lose out time and time

:56:37.:56:41.

again. I share Tom Blenkinsop's cynicism about the timing of this

:56:42.:56:44.

announcement. Ultimately, what we need to see is the local authority

:56:45.:56:54.

groupings which were suggested as the replacements, it has taken a

:56:55.:56:57.

long time to get them on thdir feet. And to bring investment to bring in

:56:58.:57:03.

jobs to the area. They are only now just Artem to make progress. Labour

:57:04.:57:11.

seems to be keen on these mdas. As an MP for Newcastle, could xou see

:57:12.:57:19.

the advantage of a mayor covering that area? . Would you say, don t

:57:20.:57:36.

think about mayor 's? It is unthinkable to the people. Hf a new

:57:37.:57:39.

offer is put forward, it is up to people to think if that is what they

:57:40.:57:46.

want. We need a strong regional voice to shout for investment. The

:57:47.:57:51.

Chancellor's speech was short on detail. What powers would this may

:57:52.:58:15.

have? I would like it to be somebody will like Boris Johnson with his

:58:16.:58:19.

power. People always say whoever we vote for, the council gets Laginn.

:58:20.:58:24.

But people feel they have pdople foisted on them. We would not foist

:58:25.:58:32.

people on people. It comes down to the mayor is. You can have ` good

:58:33.:58:36.

champion for a particular conurbation. We should look more

:58:37.:58:41.

closely at this proposal. Pdople rejected John Prescott's big idea

:58:42.:58:47.

and we need to keep it local. Somebody you can identify whth and

:58:48.:58:56.

the buck. . I'm talking abott Boris! Labour going to make an announcement

:58:57.:59:01.

which is raised similar, I suspect. If Labour makes out an annotncement

:59:02.:59:06.

it will not leave out the entire Northeast. This is a very cxnically

:59:07.:59:13.

timed announcement from the Chancellor and ultimately it is all

:59:14.:59:19.

jam tomorrow. There is nothhng concrete in his proposals. There is

:59:20.:59:23.

nothing that we can say, th`t will be grateful this region. We will

:59:24.:59:25.

have to leave it there. The number of hospital admissions

:59:26.:59:31.

as a result of eating disorders is 30% higher in the North East than

:59:32.:59:34.

the national average. So plans to close

:59:35.:59:37.

a specialist unit at the Roxal Victoria Infirmary in Newcastle were

:59:38.:59:39.

likely to be controversial. It was taken up by a Tyneside MP

:59:40.:59:41.

in the Commons this week. Here's Mark Denten with mord on that

:59:42.:59:44.

and the rest of the week's news The problems caused

:59:45.:59:50.

by shop closures in South Shields have been highlighted in thd Commons

:59:51.:59:53.

by Emma Law Buck after Marks Spencer closed on King

:59:54.:59:55.

Street after 80 years of tr`ding. An independent commission chaired

:59:56.:00:00.

by the Bishop of Carlisle h`s called for benefit changes to reduce

:00:01.:00:02.

the impact on vulnerable people The decision to close

:00:03.:00:06.

down a specialist unit in Ndwcastle for eating disorders has bedn

:00:07.:00:09.

criticised by Newcastle MP. She blamed it for sending pdople

:00:10.:00:13.

to local units far from homd. That is how we have come to the

:00:14.:00:19.

ridiculous and tragic situation of our National Health Service sending

:00:20.:00:23.

vulnerable Tyneside patients to Glasgow, to Norwich, to London, when

:00:24.:00:28.

there are empty beds in the centre And finally,

:00:29.:00:33.

a new plan to transform the The ?74 million project aims to

:00:34.:00:40.

create jobs And one extra bit of news from

:00:41.:00:45.

West Cumbria. Where the

:00:46.:00:54.

Workington MP Sir Tony Cunnhngham has announced he's to stand down

:00:55.:00:56.

at the next General Election. He's been the MP

:00:57.:00:59.

in the Labour seat since 2001. And that's about it from me

:01:00.:01:03.

for this week. You can read more

:01:04.:01:06.

about the northern powerhouse plans on my blog, and don't forget to

:01:07.:01:08.

follow me on Twitter. Now though it's back to Andrew

:01:09.:01:11.

for the rest of this week's show. been problems elsewhere in Europe,

:01:12.:01:16.

but I take your point. Thanks to both of you today. Back to you,

:01:17.:01:17.

Andrew. Now, there have been some

:01:18.:01:23.

less-than-helpful remarks about the way the Labour party makes

:01:24.:01:25.

policy, and they've come from the man who is heading Labour's

:01:26.:01:27.

Policy Review, Jon Cruddas. In a speech to party activists he

:01:28.:01:32.

was recorded saying that, "instrumentalised, cynical nuggets

:01:33.:01:36.

of policy to chime with our focus groups and our press strategies and

:01:37.:01:39.

our desire for a topline in terms of the 24 hour media cycle,

:01:40.:01:42.

dominate and crowd out any He added that Labour's election

:01:43.:01:45.

strategy was being hampered by a The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls

:01:46.:01:55.

was asked about what Mr Cruddas had I talked to him a couple of days

:01:56.:02:16.

ago, and he's not frustrated, he is excited about his policy agenda He

:02:17.:02:22.

is frustrated that one report of 250 pages gets reduced down. So it's our

:02:23.:02:27.

fault? That is the way we live in the world in which we live, but we

:02:28.:02:32.

have big ideas about devolution long term infrastructure spending

:02:33.:02:36.

and new manufacturing policy, new investment in skills, big changes

:02:37.:02:40.

which, let's be honest, I'm really on George Osborne's agenda. How

:02:41.:02:48.

serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so let's call it an unforced error You

:02:49.:02:52.

go to the party speeches, and you don't know who is in the audience.

:02:53.:02:56.

There is no need for something as serious as this to happen. It's

:02:57.:03:00.

hugely serious because it speaks about something people have felt for

:03:01.:03:03.

a long time, that they have doled out little nuggets of policy but no

:03:04.:03:07.

overarching story. There was a quite saying the Ed Miliband has given as

:03:08.:03:11.

a shopping list, not a narrative. When people in the party say things

:03:12.:03:15.

that are true, it's very difficult for people to explain it away. Not

:03:16.:03:20.

sure Mr Miliband can win here. He was recently criticised for not

:03:21.:03:23.

having policies. Now he's being criticised for having too many. I

:03:24.:03:28.

think this line of attack is particularly wounding because he

:03:29.:03:30.

prides himself on being a politician of ideas. That is his unique selling

:03:31.:03:36.

point, and the weight that David Cameron's prime ministerial nature

:03:37.:03:41.

is his selling point. So it is wounding. If I was the Labour Party,

:03:42.:03:44.

before announcing any policy, I would ask can help fix us on the

:03:45.:03:50.

economy? It might be radicalised immolating on its own terms, but

:03:51.:03:56.

it's politically useless. -- radical and innovative on its own terms I

:03:57.:03:59.

don't think any member of the public does not think they are not radical

:04:00.:04:03.

enough or creative enough. If anything, it's the opposite. They

:04:04.:04:06.

are a bit nervous about what a Labour government could do and

:04:07.:04:10.

nervous about the economic reputation. Reassurance, caution,

:04:11.:04:14.

maybe a bit of timidity might be the notions that inform their policies

:04:15.:04:18.

or should inform their policies in night -- my view, not the opposite.

:04:19.:04:24.

I am worried for Jon Cruddas, because anyone who questions the

:04:25.:04:27.

Labour Party are part of the nexus of the banking industry who are

:04:28.:04:32.

terrified of a Labour victory. It's interesting that this goes to the

:04:33.:04:34.

heart of the debate in the Labour Party, at the highest levels, do

:04:35.:04:38.

they put a big offer to the British people, or a little off, John

:04:39.:04:42.

Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander offer? Ed Miliband says that his

:04:43.:04:49.

ideas about freezing energy prices and rent controls are a big offer,

:04:50.:04:52.

but his policy chief clearly has real concerns that they don't go far

:04:53.:04:57.

enough. How important a figure is John Cruddas in the project? He is

:04:58.:05:01.

hell of the -- head of the policy review and has a huge amount of

:05:02.:05:06.

power, and so him slagging off the policy review is a bad moment. He is

:05:07.:05:12.

trusted in that inner circle and the problem for Ed Miliband from the odd

:05:13.:05:15.

is that he has people with strong opinions, Maurice clasping is

:05:16.:05:19.

another, big thinkers, but they maybe don't have a precaution that a

:05:20.:05:24.

professional politician might have in terms of giving bland answers.

:05:25.:05:29.

So, David Cameron had to apologise after his former director

:05:30.:05:32.

of communications was convicted of phone hacking.

:05:33.:05:33.

David Cameron's other former friend, Rebekah Brooks, had a better day.

:05:34.:05:37.

At the same trial, she was cleared of all the charges against her.

:05:38.:05:43.

I take full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson. I did some

:05:44.:05:49.

on the basis of undertakings I was given by him about phone hacking and

:05:50.:05:52.

those turned out not to be the case. I always said that if they turned

:05:53.:05:56.

out to be wrong, I would make a full and frank apology, and I do that

:05:57.:06:01.

today. I am extremely sorry that I employed him. It was the wrong

:06:02.:06:06.

decision. I'm clear about that. When I was arrested it was in the middle

:06:07.:06:11.

of a maelstrom of controversy, politics and of comment. Some of

:06:12.:06:14.

that was there, but much of it was not, so I'm grateful to the jury for

:06:15.:06:24.

coming to that decision. Not been a great week for David Cameron. Andy

:06:25.:06:29.

Coulson found guilty, and another person who had worked in Downing

:06:30.:06:31.

Street is also charged on an unrelated issue. And he was 26- on

:06:32.:06:37.

the wrong end in Brussels, and there is a poll this morning which no one

:06:38.:06:40.

seems to be talking about which puts Labour nine points ahead. Before all

:06:41.:06:45.

that there was Dominic Cummings criticising the Downing Street

:06:46.:06:49.

operation is being shambolic. Is Mr Cameron's judgement becoming an

:06:50.:06:53.

issue? Yes, what often happens when one leader is under pressure for

:06:54.:06:56.

long enough, as Ed Miliband has been the six months, we get bored. We

:06:57.:07:01.

then switch the Gatling gun to the other guy. So David Cameron going

:07:02.:07:04.

into the Conference season might be the man under pressure. The whole

:07:05.:07:07.

Andy Coulson saga has raised questions about his judgement and

:07:08.:07:11.

those around him, but any political damage she was going to sustain over

:07:12.:07:14.

Andy Coulson and phone hacking was sustained years ago -- he was

:07:15.:07:17.

going. It was Brother beyond the date the News of the World was

:07:18.:07:21.

closed down three summers ago - it was probably on the date. As the

:07:22.:07:26.

hacking trial cut through to the general public? Or is it just as

:07:27.:07:32.

media and political obsessives? I am sure it has cut through in some way

:07:33.:07:36.

but it didn't necessarily happen in recent days, more likely in recent

:07:37.:07:40.

years. It was some time ago that Andy Coulson resigned in high

:07:41.:07:44.

profile circumstances. It has had a slow burning effect over a few

:07:45.:07:48.

years, and the Prime Minister fears the Big Bang. But there is one theme

:07:49.:07:54.

and words that unites this week with Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that

:07:55.:07:58.

is that the Prime Minister can be lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical

:07:59.:08:01.

in not asking big question is when there was a lot in the public domain

:08:02.:08:04.

about what had happened that the News of the World. And he was

:08:05.:08:08.

lackadaisical with Juncker. He made a calculation that Angela Merkel

:08:09.:08:11.

would support him and it turned out she couldn't. Maybe he needs to

:08:12.:08:15.

change. He was late in understanding what was happening in Germany when

:08:16.:08:19.

both the Christian Democrats, her party, wanted Juncker, and when the

:08:20.:08:26.

actual Murdoch press of Germany said that they wanted him as well. He

:08:27.:08:31.

never saw that. He only looks at one person in Germany, Angela Merkel,

:08:32.:08:35.

and it is a grand coalition, and the SDP felt strongly about it. He is,

:08:36.:08:40.

in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He is, in a sense, an

:08:41.:08:42.

essay crisis Prime Minister. He s very good in an essay, and the SA

:08:43.:08:48.

gets a double first the essay. Is Ed Miliband right to be angry? He has

:08:49.:08:53.

John Cruddas attacking him, and that is the news leading in the Sunday

:08:54.:08:58.

Times, and has not been a good week the Prime Minister and in which Mr

:08:59.:09:01.

Miliband has a bigger lead in the polls than he has had some time so

:09:02.:09:04.

he must be wondering why they are having a go at him. He made a

:09:05.:09:08.

tactical error in Prime Minister's Questions by asking all the

:09:09.:09:11.

questions about Andy Coulson. The one at the end about what Gus

:09:12.:09:15.

O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in the extreme. Politicians can be out

:09:16.:09:20.

of touch on all sides of the house. The problem is, and there is a great

:09:21.:09:24.

quote by William Hague, is that the Tory party has two modes, panic and

:09:25.:09:28.

complacency. At the moment they are complacent. They think Ed Miliband

:09:29.:09:31.

will lose Labour election but I don't know if they have a positive

:09:32.:09:34.

plan about how to win it. -- lose Labour the election.

:09:35.:09:37.

Now, we knew Prince Charles had trouble keeping his views

:09:38.:09:40.

about the environment and the countryside to himself,

:09:41.:09:42.

but that's not the only thing he's passionate about according to

:09:43.:09:44.

a radio four documentary to be broadcast this lunchtime.

:09:45.:09:47.

Here's former Education Secretary, David Blunkett on how the Prince

:09:48.:09:51.

had once attempted to influence his policy on schools.

:09:52.:09:55.

I would explain that our policy was not to expand grammar schools, and

:09:56.:10:01.

he didn't like that. He was very keen that we should go back to a

:10:02.:10:07.

different era where youngsters had what he would've seen as the

:10:08.:10:11.

opportunity to escape from their background, where as I wanted to

:10:12.:10:12.

change their background. And you can hear that documentary -

:10:13.:10:14.

it's called The Royal Activist Does it matter that Prince Charles

:10:15.:10:24.

is getting involved in this kind of policy, released behind closed doors

:10:25.:10:27.

question mark on the issue of grammar schools is not clear anybody

:10:28.:10:33.

listened to him. I think it is a principal problem. I've spoken to

:10:34.:10:36.

form a government members, and judging by what they say, if

:10:37.:10:39.

anything we underestimate how much contacting makes with ministers And

:10:40.:10:43.

how many representations he makes on the issue that interest him. There

:10:44.:10:49.

has been an attempt to keep it hidden. It's almost a theological

:10:50.:10:52.

question about whether the future monarch should be involved in the

:10:53.:10:57.

public realm. If he wants to influence policy, shouldn't we know

:10:58.:11:00.

what policy he's trying to influence and what position he is taking?

:11:01.:11:05.

Sewer speech is better than private one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so

:11:06.:11:11.

a speech. Prince Charles's views are interesting. He's not a straight

:11:12.:11:15.

down the light reactionary. He makes a left-wing case for rammer schools.

:11:16.:11:19.

There is an interview with him in the Financial Times in which his

:11:20.:11:24.

argument in favour for architectural development takes into account

:11:25.:11:27.

affordable housing in the wake which no one would have suspected. He has

:11:28.:11:30.

interesting views, but I'm not convinced on the point of principle

:11:31.:11:34.

whether someone is dashing his position should be speaking. Your

:11:35.:11:39.

former employer 's famously described him as the SDP king. You

:11:40.:11:46.

slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66 and still an apprentice. He's in a

:11:47.:11:53.

difficult position. We know what the powers of the monarch are. They are

:11:54.:11:57.

to advise in courage and warned the Prime Minister of the day. These in

:11:58.:12:00.

the difficult position where the problem for him is that there is a

:12:01.:12:03.

line that isn't really defined, but you slightly feel he just gets a bit

:12:04.:12:07.

too close to it and possibly crosses that line with the lobbying that

:12:08.:12:12.

goes on. I think the worrying thing is that at some point he will become

:12:13.:12:17.

King and will he know that he has got to work within that framework?

:12:18.:12:22.

He is somebody that cannot win either. If he doesn't take an

:12:23.:12:25.

interest in public policy, he will be thought to be a bit of a waster,

:12:26.:12:29.

going round opening town halls, and when he does have an interest we

:12:30.:12:33.

think, hey, you are in the monarchy, stay out. There's an interesting

:12:34.:12:38.

parallel with first ladies who are encouraged to find a controversial

:12:39.:12:43.

charitable project. Michelle Obama has bought childhood obesity, and

:12:44.:12:47.

that is the standard thing. Everybody knows that that is a bad

:12:48.:12:51.

thing, but you are not offering solutions that are party political.

:12:52.:12:55.

I feel there must be a middle way with what he should be able to do

:12:56.:12:58.

about finding big causes he can complain about without getting stuck

:12:59.:13:02.

into lobbying ministers. Which can become a party political issue. He

:13:03.:13:06.

has had some influence on architecture, because the buildings

:13:07.:13:09.

we are putting up to date are better than the ones we used to put up

:13:10.:13:11.

The Daily Politics is on BBC 2 at 11:00am

:13:12.:13:16.

We'll be back here at the same time next week.

:13:17.:13:20.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:21.:13:25.

With Richard Moss. Andrew Neil is joined by Europe Minister David Lidington, Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Lib Dem Charles Kennedy to discuss David Cameron's EU defeat. Also should there be a complete ban on smoking?


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS