06/07/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria

Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 201 .

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

joins me from Edinburgh. In the North East and Cumbria:

joins me from Edinburgh. Are voters listening to Labour?

And with me throughout the show three top-flight political

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

United States making the allegations lives in the

been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

inrequest -- that inquiry took 12 years to report. The problem is the

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do I

in what a public inquiry can do. I wonder whether there is another

example of a country that goes through this stale ritual every few

years of a scandal emerging, the opposition calling for an inquiry,

the Government saying no and then holding the line or giving in. I

don't know what we think this inquiries can do. It comes back to

your point, Helen, you should be careful what you call an inquiry on

so it doesn't devalue the concept. On Thursday up to a million public

sector workers - including teachers, firemen and council workers -

will go on strike. Their unions have differing gripes

but the fact they're all striking on the same day is designed to send

a strong message to the government. As the economy picks up again

they're demanding an end Growth has returned strongly to

the UK economy and unemployment is at its lowest

level for more than five years. So why is there still talk

of austerity The deficit is coming down but much

more slowly than the government And accumulated deficits -

the national debt - The UK is now in hock to the tune

of ?1.3 trillion - and rising. In fact, we're only 40% of the way

through George Osborne's planned austerity, with the chancellor now

saying he won't manage to balance Unions are now rebelling

against tight pay controls. Since 2010, average public sector

pay, which goes to about 1 in 5 Over the same period,

prices increased by 16% - meaning the average public sector

worker saw their pay squeezed Going head-to-head on the public

sector strikes and austerity - the general secretary of the TUC

Frances O'Grady, and Conservative We have seen it, public sector pay

squeezed by 9% under the Coalition Government. Isn't it time to take

your foot off the brake a bit? I don't think it is the right time to

let go of the public finances at all. We were always clear that this

is what's called a structural deficit, it doesn't go away just

because the growth is returning and the economy is coming back. We have

protected and are protecting the lowest paid public sector workers

who weren't part of the pay freeze and now pay going up by 1%. These

are difficult decisions. We have had that discussion many times. They are

necessary in order to keep that plan on track and as we can see in the

wider economy, it is working. People's living standards will have

to continue to fall if you are in the public sector? We need to keep

public spending under control and pay restraint is one of the main

ways of being able... The answer is yes? The answer is this is

necessary. The answer is yes, this is necessary. It isn't because we

want to. We have to. This strike isn't going to change the

Government's mind, is it? It does seem like the Government isn't

listening. We have had years... They are listening, they just don't

agree. Ordinary people, including those in the public sector, are

finding it really tough. What really sticks in the throat is the idea

that money can be found to give tax cuts to billionaires, to

millionaires and to big corporations. But it can't be found

to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school

meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the living

wage. What do you say to that? We have protected those who are the

least well-paid in the public sector. But this is about a

long-term... How can you? Hold on. You have said you have protected

them. This involves ordinary people, many watching this programme, they

have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is

up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11% in

costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in what way have you protected people

from spending they have to make? Firstly, you read out the average

increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the

top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we

could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax

and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive

impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20

pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have

got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and

we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010,

partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really

important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have

stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not

spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase

itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and

guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.

?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?

I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being

able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints

of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The

evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the

Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even

after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they

are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?

That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that

report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are

saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the

public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are

comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the

workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better

off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate

better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry

private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political

strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The

strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is

what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government

workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers

are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of

touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards

depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real

increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we

certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?

2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament. .

be in surplus. It is testament... So, no real pay increase for public

sector workers before 2018? Interestingly, this isn't just about

the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, the Labour Party leadership have

said it is a test of their credibility that they support the

squeeze on public sector pay. I look forward to them, they ought to come

out and say very clearly that these strikes are wrong and they are

against the strikes and stop taking union money. It is a democratic

right. Hold on. They are - they think the policy of pay restraint is

necessary. Alright. On this point about democracy... Ask yourself why

so many ordinary decent public service workers are so fed up. They

have seen so many billions of pounds wasted through outsourcing to

organisations like G4 S. In Unite and UNISON the turnout in this vote

was under 20%. Alright. OK. One final question... Hold on. You said

millions and millions voted on this... I want to ask you this

question. Is the story in the Mail on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's

on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s planning a big crackdown on the

unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know

the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this

make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government

on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of

time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be

an independent country?" That's the question the people of

Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed

the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before

the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win

and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading

the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of

independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what

would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will

get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple

of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a

number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a

half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be

encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a

long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that

is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a

vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of

uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising

devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there

is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more

or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have

powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are

planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying

different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have

slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an

agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute

book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 199 ,

people unified around a single proposition so there is history here

and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in

the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland

vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers? I

would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have

something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in

the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not

certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,

and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the

past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt

over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that

walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists

because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete

break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that

wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any

plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,

what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future

of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.

When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with

representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that

affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want

to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local

authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the

uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would

throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic

arguments are dominating people s thinking, the polls show, that is

what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued

membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an

in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued

Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and

conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into

something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we

have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate

which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have

to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union

does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half

years to get into Europe. I don t want that uncertainty or the

disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with

losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about

is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,

and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to

stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the

argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that

over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that

is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our

arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be

made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists

win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no

vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a

world of difference between devolution and further devolution

where you remain part of the UK. There is a world of difference

between that and making a break, where Scotland becomes a foreign

country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those

opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with

pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with

passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon

Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to

take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign

over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for

remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had

warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland

we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from

that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from

saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are

collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand

up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is

perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what

you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know

about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the

leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was

being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to

blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South

of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.

I think it is important in this debate that people from outside

politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on

because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody

should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will

happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are

making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.

I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon,

next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will

be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European

elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a

moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been

asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister

on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the

Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire

results in the local and European elections so what can the party do

to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line

one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local

support? It is a massive problem because those are the building

blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work

done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock

on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has

lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name

Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming

Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge

and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity

at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a

difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position

itself to win back support? Let s does the party need to position

itself to win back support? Let's go to Chris online free, has the party

got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a

party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a

of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the

next election because if we don't next election because if we don t

people will vote for the Tories. Nick, what do you think of the

party's message at the moment? I have had a look at early draft of

our manifesto and there is some good stuff in there but the authors are

probably too interested in what may think we have achieved in the last

five years and not really focusing on what the voters will want to be

hearing about the next five years. Perhaps they should get out more and

test some of these messages on the doorstep. So you want to see the top

ranks of the party on the doorstep. Gareth online one also wants to make

a point about the manifesto. There is clearly a problem somewhere near

the top and there are some people who seem to be obsessed with power

for power's sake, and happy with a timid offer but the Liberal

Democrats want to change things. timid offer but the Liberal

Democrats want to change things We are running out of time so let's try

to squeeze one more call in. What are your thoughts on the long-term

future of the party? I think serious long-term danger is that the party

could be relegated to the fringes of the UK and no longer being a

national party. We have gone back decades if that happens because for

many years we have been represented in every part of the country at some

level and we have got to rescue ourselves from that. Some

interesting views but we are going to have to wait until the general

election next year to find out how well the Lib Dems face up to these

challenges. Thanks for listening, we are going to finish with an old

classic now. # I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #.

Nick Clegg, welcome to the programme. I want to come onto your

situation in a minute but as you will have seen in the papers, there

is mounting concern over and historic Westminster paedophile

ring, and files relating to it mysteriously disappearing. Why are

you against a full public enquiry into this? I wouldn't rule anything

out. I think we should do anything it takes to uncover this and achieve

justice. delivered, even all these many years

later. How do you do it? There is an inquiry in the Home Office about

what's happened to these documents, serious questions need to be asked

about what happened in the Home Office and those questions need to

be answered. There are inquiries in the BBC, in the NHS and most

importantly of all the police are looking into the places where this

abuse was alleged to have taken place. All I would say is, let's

make sure that justice is delivered, truth is uncovered and I think that

the way to do that, as we have seen, is by allowing the police to get on

with their work. You say that, but there are only seven police involved

in this inquiry. There are 195 involved in the hacking

investigations. We can both agree that child abuse is more important

and serious than hacking. The Home Office, there are reports that Home

Office officials may have been mentioned in the dossier, people

don't trust people to investigate themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept

that we need to make sure that - themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept

that we need to make sure that and that we need to make sure that - and

the police need to make sure that the police investigations are

thorough, well resourced. I can t thorough, well resourced. I can't

think of anything more horrendous, I can't, than powerful people

organising themselves and worse still, this is what is alleged,

covering up for each other to abuse the most vulnerable people in

society's care - children. But at the end of the day, the only way you

can get people in the dock, the only way you can get people charged, is

by allowing the prosecuting authorities and the police to do

their job. I have an open mind about what other inquiries take place. A

number of other inquiries are taking place. I assume any additional

inquiries wouldn't be able to second guess or look into the matters which

the police are looking into already. All I would say is that people who

have information, who want to provide information which they think

is relevant to this, please get in touch with the police. Alright.

Let's come on to our own inquiry into the state of the Lib Dems. You

have attempted to distance yourself and the party from the Tories, but

still stay in Government - it is called aggressive differentiation.

Why isn't it working? It's not called aggressive differentiation.

It is called "coalition". It is two parties who retain different

identities, different values, have different aspirations for the

future. But during this Parliament have come together because we were

facing a unique national emergency back in 2010, the economy was

teetering on the edge of a precipice. I'm immensely proud,

notwithstanding our political challenges, which are real, I'm

immensely proud that the Liberal Democrats, we stepped up to the

plate, held our nerve and without the Liberal Democrats, there

wouldn't now be that economic recovery which is helping many

people across the country. Why aren't you getting any credit for

it? Well, we won't get credit if we spend all our time staring at our

navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't be more

jobs now available to people. They don't believe you, they are giving

the Tories the credit for the recovery? Well, you might assert

that, we will assert and I will shout it from the rooftops that if

we had not created the stability by forming this Coalition Government

and then hard-wired into the Government's plans, not only the

gory job of fixing the public finances, but doing so much more

fairly than would have been the case, if the Conservatives had been

in Government on their own, they wouldn't have delivered these tax

cuts. They wouldn't have delivered the triple lock guarantee for

pensions or the pupil premium. OK. Why are you 8% in the polls? Well,

because I think where we get our message across - and I am here in my

own constituency - this is a constituency where I am a

campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot of the information and say we have

done a decent thing by going into Government and we have delivered big

changes, big reforms which you can touch and see in your school, in

your pensions, in your taxes and then people do support us and, in

our areas of strength, we were winning against both the

Conservative and Labour parties. It Conservative and Labour parties It

is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left

and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in

Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -

having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in

our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more

support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib

Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a

National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a

National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we

have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much

time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing

that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in

challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we

have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more

Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering

before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal

reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been

setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure

teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in

school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company

from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with

education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values

that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out

and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that

you "are toxic on the doorstep". Look, as everybody knows, being the

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a

good reason for that. They didn't good reason for that. They didn t

win the election. The left say that somehow we have lost our soul when

we haven't. That happens day in, day out. Of course that will have some

effect. My answer to that is not to buckle to those criticisms, those

misplaced Chris -- criticisms from left and right, but to stand up

proudly. Is it your intention to fight the next election against an

in-out referendum on Europe? Yes. Unless there is major treaty change?

Our position hasn't waivered, it won't waiver, we are not going to

flip-flop on the issue of the referendum like the Conservatives

did. We want an in-out referendum. With ve legislated for the trigger

when that will happen, when in u powers are transferred to the

European Union. That is what we have said for years. We legislated for

that... So no change? No change. that... So no change? No change

Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep

Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of

what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to

serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has

done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years

to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not

just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some

heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger

of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in

Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of

that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near

Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them

later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm

sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,

the Week Labour hopes to lead

the race to Downing Street `nd make But has the party got

the right policies ` and Middlesbrough's Labour MP Andy

Macdonald and Durham Conservative councillor Richard Bell join me

in the studio. And these people were thrown out

of a North East town hall for trying Now the law is changing `

but do the new rules go far enough? the North

of England is suddenly flavour The Government's ambition to create

a "powerhouse" of the north's big This week, the deputy

Prime Minister Nick Clegg l`unched something called "Northern Futures"

with a call for big, bold ideas to And more enthusiasm

for all things northern camd from Chancellor George Osborne who

dropped into Simpsons Malt in Berwick to announce more funding

for businesses in the North East. This will be the first

in the country like this. It is part of our long`term economic

plan to support growth in all parts of our country, not just thd

north`east as a region, but also in Richard Bell. Less than a year to go

until the election the sudddn until the election the sudden

Osbourne wants at what the north all the time. What America got got into

them? I would like to think is all coordinated but I do not thhnk it

is. The Chancellor's visit to Berwick was about countryside growth

and the network fund which hs a and the network fund which is a

continuation of a pilot that has been running for a couple of years.

In my own ward we about to projects supported by that. The aucthon

In my own ward we about to projects supported by that. The auction mart

has built new business units and created a new business in Middleton.

And a gentleman starting a coffee importing and roasting business.

And a gentleman starting a coffee importing and roasting business We

importing and roasting business. We grow a lot of coughing in tdas,

grow a lot of coughing in teas, don't you know. ?23 million for

small businesses in role in areas including Gateshead is great news.

Site were not except that it is just happening now. A lot of this work

has been quietly happening for a year or two. Your site last four

years berating this governments for years berating this governmdnts for

its lack of interest in the north. You can't complain now wonder

its lack of interest in the north. You can't complain now wonddr making

a virtue of getting out there? Looe`macro it is a bit late in the

late to stop paying attention to the north. It is being abandoned for the

duration of this administration. Absolutely it has. George Osborne

seems to define the North as stopping at the M 62 until this

latest announcement. The concentration on the North of

England has been limited and sparse. Four out of five jobs creatdd are in

London and the south`east. Why matter the figures are disputes this

week when they? That the regional growth fund has done the north`east

very good. The reality is that you should be welcoming the fact they

are taking this seriously? H take are taking this seriously? H take

the interest seriously, I just are taking this seriously? I take

the interest seriously, I jtst wish the interest seriously, I just wish

it had happened a long time ago We it had happened a long time ago. We

have to see what the delivery is. Expressing an interest is OK, but

what does it mean? What is the follow`through going to be? That's

why have doubts. Richard Bell, that is a good point. There is a lot of

speaking but not much commitment. The money for the businesses is

welcome. And been put on a high`speed rail line having a

Government department moved here. Know, and I think we should be doing

more to move civil service jobs and other jobs out of the south`east if

we can. I would except that. But it is welcome news. It is churlish to

say nothing at happen for a fuel years. Things are happening on the

ground, things have been built in my ward and on the back of somd of

ward and on the back of some of these grant initiatives. Thdse are

being quietly all the time. Look at Hitachi, getting money from the

regional growth fund. So it is not fair to say we have been forgotten

about. Things happening quietly all about. Things happening quidtly all

the time. Maybe the mistake they made was leaving it a bit late.

the time. Maybe the mistake they made was leaving it a bit l`te. We

will return to that subject later. Now to Labour's plans to help

the region's economy grow. This week, the party gave more

details of its policy based upon There'll be fewer but stronger

local enterprise partnerships. ?30 billion of spending

on transport, schools infrastructure and housing

will be devolved to city regions While councils willbe able to keep

additional business rates they generate, to reinvest

in local jobs and business. Those proposals are just

the latest in a series of announcements from Labour

as it firms up the content of its The party's already committdd itself

to ending out`of`work benefits for 18`to`21`year`olds,

abolishing the benefit changes it calls the bedroom tax as well

as freezing energy bills. So no shortage of ideas `

but how much are the party's It's a battleground,

a key part of the South and Labour's held the seat since 1997,

but they came perilously close to The party's majority of just over

1,600 here actually makes it one of the ten most marginal Labour

seats in the country. So have they made any progrdss

since 2010? Do the shoppers here think they

are being sold something sweeter now or do they think they'rd still

getting a bit of a bit of a lemon? Time to join the bargain hunters

and hawkers, then, to see if they can name anything of

the recent slew of Labour policies. Even when, now,

we can't afford it because we've got What policy have they got

on that though, do you know? So does that worry Labour fhgures

in this constituency? It would next May,

I think what they're waiting for and slowly hearing are policies from

Labour which will address that. So, for example, the freeze on

energy prices I think reson`ted very And this week, the idea

of repatriating some of the money to local areas rather than it being

spent in Westminster, I think, But if

the policies are not always cutting Are shoppers and traders sold on

Ed Miliband? I'm a Labour man right through,

so let?s see what he can do He's alright as a person but he

doesn't come across with that extra I don't think is

the right man to lead the party. I think David would

have been better. Absolute conker, and his brother,

yes. He's just got one of those faces I

can't get away with, to be fair We could do somebody

a bit tougher for Labour. I want Labour to come back

in power so I don't mind You can't name any

of their policies though? I know, yes,

because I've got "baby`brain"! That rather mixed verdict is

giving hope to this man. Conservative candidate Will Goodhand

believes Labour's lack of appeal could help him win this

seat and deliver a Tory Government. They set out saying that thd

economic plan that the Conservatives had wasn't going to work

and the fact it, it is working. We have had 56,000 more jobs since

2010 in the North`East, we have had a thousand fall in the numbdr

of people and jobseeker's allowance just in Middlesbrough South and

East Cleveland in the past year. And almost in a panic in response,

Labour are throwing out policies that are just not credible

and people can really see through. With policy announcements coming

by the pound from Labour, perhaps they do need more time to

filter through to the public. On the evidence of this market day,

the party is yet to seal thd deal. So has Labour got the poliches `

election and the leader ` Middlesbrough to win

the next General Election? Andy McDonald, remarkable isn't a?

All this energy on the bedroom freeze in the bedroom tax. Not a

mention of any of those. Surprise, disappointed? It is difficult for a

lot of people to annunciator and able to tell us what the party

policies. The reality is when it policies. The reality is when it

comes to polls, the ones whdre we comes to polls, the ones where we

have elections, Labour are doing well. We are returning more

councillors and gaining mord job of councillors and gaining mord job of

councils. So when it matters, it fills us through. Him as matter that

these people are taking these things in. People have to understand what

you are standing for an uttdrly get you are standing for an uttdrly get

that from them. the video also showed there was some desird to

that from them. the video also showed there was some desire to vote

Labour as well. So I think ht showed there was some desird to vote

Labour as well. So I think it is Labour as well. So I think it is

filtering through even though people can't annunciator each and dvery

can't annunciator each and every policy. But they are getting the

message. Richard Bell, there is some message. Richard Bell, therd is some

truth in because some of those people I spoke to, although they

could name policies, they s`id they could name policies, they said they

were in favour of Labour. There was a great enthusiasm for David Cameron

and the Conservatives either. , maybe not. The difference is that

Cameron has shown repeatedlx that maybe not. The difference is that

Cameron has shown repeatedly that is Cameron has shown repeatedly that is

capable of taking tough dechsions and his decisive and gives strong

leadership. I doubt very much weather Ed Miliband is capable of

that. Nonpolitical people that I speak to most often say to le he

that. Nonpolitical people that I speak to most often say to me he is

speak to most often say to le he is a bright bloke but is not like

speak to most often say to me he is a bright bloke but is not lhke he's

a bright bloke but is not like he's up to the job. We will go on to the

individual in a moment. You are a councillor in Durham so presumably

you are welcome that Labour has proposed radical idea this week to

transfer powers? If you talk about the Adonis review, broadly, I would

welcome them. They are building on proposals and ideas Michael

Heseltine had a of years ago. Won but the Conservatives didn't

implement them. Looe`macro the Conservatives in this region will be

glad to see funding devolved centrally, so, yes, I'm not saying

we would not welcome some of that devolution that has been mentioned.

Greg Stone, it is a policy that is maybe not taught about in the pub,

but it is radicalism to? It is good stuff, but it is a continuation of

what the coalition has been doing. Blake has been involved with giving

more power to Newcastle and Sunderland and that recognition that

we can't just have a centralised London ` dominated political system

and economic system, I think is filtering through to all parties. It

has been the case for too long now include in the last Government, that

include in the last Governmdnt, that the North East, given the powers to

do what it can to transform the economy, transport, things like

housing, it should not be taken in housing, it should not be t`ken in

Whitehall. It should be taken housing, it should not be taken in

Whitehall. It should be takdn in housing, it should not be t`ken in

Whitehall. It should be taken in the regions. But given that, th`t

enthusiasm for the north`east that you are showing, Nick Clegg this

week I looked in the news release he week I looked in the news rdlease he

had and is meant as a Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds. No mention

Sunderland Newcastle Carlisle. We must evolve to the cities and create

the economic growth we need. That is a good thing. Won but is it more

focused on M 62 corridor rather than think about the north`east? Is a

story had about John Prescott's Northern Way, the original cons back

that macro concept for that... I think the job for the North East in

particular for the north`east combine authority would is not

dominated by Labour council leaders is how they can punch their weight

and make and use these new powers and resources to transform the

region's economy and make that happen. The evidence in recent years

happen. The evidence in recdnt years has not been that good on that

front. Andy, let us and so the criticism of Ed Miliband in the

film. Nearly people are not getting the message cause they do like the

the message cause they do lhke the messenger? Has it got the right

messenger? Has it got the rhght values, is the intellectually up to

it and canny persuade people? I it and canny persuade peopld? I

think he can. I think Yaz all the qualities we need for a Prile

qualities we need for a Prime Minister is not unusual for a leader

of the opposition to be lagging behind a Prime Minister in opinion

polls. But when it comes to the real poll, that can be turned around. And

we are seeing consistent support for labour across elections when it

matters. Is this specific about the Adonis proposals. He talked about

local enterprise partnerships. We have two in this region, ond in

have two in this region, one in Seaside, one of the north`e`st.

have two in this region, ond in Seaside, one of the north`east. I've

heard that before but I fairweather real concentration is and where they

overlap, there are lots of `reas in overlap, there are lots of areas in

the country where there is no distinction. At least in the

distinction. At least in thd north`east of England we have two

distinct conurbations. So would you begin a merger? I'm quite content

with how we have gone about this in the Tees Valley. I think there is a

the Tees Valley. I think thdre is a momentum there and are some

successes that we can build on if we can devolve money and power to these

sub regions, real money and real power, then we can make a

difference. We will have to think very carefully before we go ahead

with a full merger. Bitch about, is there not a danger in all these

proposals as an ally County Durham gets overshadowed by either urban

areas such as Teeside by Tyneside? I'd been so. All areas are

benefiting. The old north`e`st benefiting. The old north`e`st

structure which was abolished by structure which was abolishdd by

this Government, and I may know Pollard is flat, was big,

bureaucratic and expensive. They give a lot of projects to Newcastle.

give a lot of projects to Ndwcastle. If you had on to the south of the

region, the Tees Valley, people feel that they did not get their fair

crack of the whip down therd. So I agree that the power structure is

agree that the power structtre is the way forward. And all the local

the way forward. And all thd local authorities are now working closely

together. Ed Miliband, he's not much as much a busted flush as Nhck Clegg

is the? Nick Clegg is do good job in the national interest. He has put

that had a party interest and I think you look at the outcole of

think you look at the outcome of this general election, the key

decision will be on weather the country is correct in the ptblic

finances that Labour left us. I think the former show their Miliband

is very much a? Is not prime is very much a? Is not prime

ministerial. There is a hugd amount ministerial. There is a huge amount

of doubt in the public out `` about his policies. There are huge

his policies. There are hugd divisions in the shadow cabinet in

Westminster, too. For the last 25 years we've been

able to switch on TV and watch our But if you wanted to see

your local councillor in action, you Try to film a meeting or usd social

media in the council chamber and you Well,

those days appear to have gone after Local Government Secretary Dric

Pickles threw his not inconsiderable More doctors, more nurses, lore

midwives, more people being treated. And is official,

the best NHS in the world. The cut and thrust of

Prime Minister's Questions. It's this party that created the NHS

and every time we have to s`ve it But while the mother

of all Parliaments has being on screen for 25 years,

many local councils have not been That is soon to change with new

legislation about to become law So for the first time, we can

bring you these exciting scdnes This has been

the first meeting which Middlesbrough council allowdd to be

filmed, and, while this meeting has been very calm, a previous `ttempt

by people to record a meeting ended Middlesbrough Town Hall in May

of this year, and an argument over somebody filming a meeting that led

to the chamber being cleared All part of

a long campaign to get Middlesbrough What is wrong with the membdrs

of the public actually filming the That have paid a good sum of money

to represent them ` being open? Very simply,

it's democracy we want to see. Middlesbrough Council says ht had in

the past been concerned about the potential for selective misleading

or mischievous editing of footage. Now it is embracing change

and allowing filming and putting a recording of leetings

online following some the councils Where Middlesbrough may havd

resisted, Newcastle has embraced. For two years, it has been

the filming their meetings `nd has When hundreds of people wanted to

come to hear decisions being made and hear that their point of view

was being put forward, it was really important that we enabled many more

people ` who clearly could not be in the council chamber and wanted to

be part of that debate ` could The act, giving people

the right to film and use social media from council meetings, also

includes some of the public bodies, But will people really find watching

council meetings riveting? I was asked a few months ago

by a councillor I bumped into in the town centre `

why do I go to these meetings? Add do think will rival the

x`height! Middlesbrough councillor to be dragged and kicked into

allowing them to format meeting. What are be got to hide? personally,

nothing! I've always thought we should film Council meetings, I

think it is a very welcome move. think it is a very welcome move.

When I was a council in the 90s I When I was a council in the 90s, I

thought then it might be a good a dear that macro idea to publish

these things. Now we have social media, it makes it easier to but it

on websites and the rest of it. So I think it is a step forward. See want

to thank Eric pickles was striking a blow for democracy? Good for him.

Richard Bell, do have any concerns about this? Meetings could be

hijacked potentially when people are hijacked potentially when people are

cameras are there? Selectivd cameras are there? Selective

extracts it is not without `ny extracts it is not without any

danger? I have reservations. We'll welcome people coming along and

filming. But you played thehr filming. But you played thehr

extracts from Prime Minister's Questions, and that is probably

extracts from Prime Minister's Questions, and that is prob`bly the

least productive part of the least productive part of the

Parliamentary week. It is a football match, throwing rocks at each other

kind of mentality. The real work of Parliament does get televised

because it is boring and tale. I because it is boring and tame. I

fear there is a danger that people will home in on the juicy or the

outrageous. A typical counchl outrageous. A typical counchl

meeting last over two hours and that is not gripping television. There is

a point here, isn't there? Letting cameras into the Commons has not

enhance the reputation of MPs has its? the point is well made about

select committees and elsewhere, its? the point is well made about

select committees and elsewhere, and of course, quite frankly, it is

tedious. It is a bit like televising trials, criminal trials. A lot of

the work is dull and it is not good for television. Nevertheless, there

is a democracy point here and I think it is superb that people can

see what the politicians and elected representatives are doing in their

names. Should Labour Day to step further and open up hospital trust

meetings? Let's do this first and see how we get on. I think xou

meetings? Let's do this first and see how we get on. I think you run

see how we get on. I think xou run the risk of creating a situation in

the risk of creating a situ`tion in which everything will be televised

and then it may close down some frank and open debates that people

testing each other out in a way they might not want to do. Let's start

going down the road and see how far we get. But putting council meetings

on the web is an excellent step forward, I think. Bead at the end

was good to watch them do you? I was told at our last full counchl

meeting which, if I have to say, told at our last full council

meeting which, if I have to say was a lively one. The numbers of people

following steadily fell through because of the meeting. Does that

mean you should raise game `ddict? mean you should raise game `ddict?

Maybe will make people make shorter, sharper speeches? brats. But a lot

of business is relatively dtll, it needs to be thorough and it needs to

be done diligently. It is a make for exciting television as a spdctator

exciting television as a spectator sport. What would you say to Eric

pickles? I would say councils have nothing to hide let us try them and

if it works, we could look at if it works, we could look `t

extending it further. You have to extending it further. You h`ve to

make sure that people have the opportunity to have frank

conversations and fly ideas and not everything that is aired in a public

body is necessarily going to be a firm proposal. Again, it is back to

this business of selective reporting. If you're having to

stream hours of it, it may not be quite interesting.

Now, a committee of MPs travelled to South Tyneside on Friday to hear

from people using food banks and from those running them.

Here's Mark Denton with that and the rest of the week's news

Nestle is to become the first major money factor to commit to paint the

money factor to commit to p`int the living wage. The firm, which has its

confectionery headquarters hn York confectionery headquarters in York

already plays that Rocca pays a living wage to its 8000 employees.

It all up in a Saint agency workers and contract staff. Cumbria county

council's Chief Executive was pay council's Chief Executive w`s pay

more than ?100,000 widgets at the more than ?100,000 widgets at the

retirement last year. She ldft retirement last year. She left

council last May and the details of a payoff which includes pension

contributions were revealed this week by BBC radio Cumbria. An

week by BBC radio Cumbria. @n enquiry by MPs into hunger food

poverty came to South Tyneshde on Friday to hear from people using

Friday to hear from people tsing food banks. The all`party group

includes this MP. we want to look at the rise of food poverty in the UK

and makes recommendations to the Government about what needs to

change. Won finally, the Northeast's new Euro MPs for Labour

and UKIP have taken their seats Northeast's new Euro MPs for Labour

and UKIP have taken their sdats in and UKIP have taken their seats in

the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

I'm off to don my Lycra and catch up with the Tour ` I think they've

But we'll be back same time, same place next week for

progress in London was being made before that started. I wish we had

longer for that. It is all over to you.

What will Thursday's mass public sector strike achieve?

Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker attacks clawed back support

And is Alan Johnson really thinking about challenging Ed Miliband

We will start with the strikes, Matt Hancock was hardline in the

head-to-head that he did with the TUC. I guess that the Tory internal

polling and focus groups must be telling them that there are votes in

taking a tough line? There is that and there is the fact that they are

now much more confident on any economic policy two or three years

ago. They shied away from it because the economy was shrinking, there was

still a danger that public sector job losses would lead to higher

unemployment overall. Now, the economy is growing, they have a good

story to sell about employment so they are much more bolshy and brazen

than they were two or three years ago. They know that it always causes

problems for Labour. Labour is naturally sympathetic to the public

sector workers, pay being squeezed, they are striking to make an issue

of it. And yet they can't quite come out and give the unions 100% Labour

support? Exactly. You saw Tristram Hunt on the Marr Show this morning

squirming to support the idea of strikes, but not this particular

strike. It was always the question that gets asked to Labour - who

funds you? That is a real problem. The bit that gets me is they trail

this ef are I time there is a -- every time there is a strike, this

idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.

Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to

talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal

for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike

law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to

stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze

or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till

2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.

This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010. At

strikes that took place in 2010 At that time, the TUC and the Labour

Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,

not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time

round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about

wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the

recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky

territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something

out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase

in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a

problem? They do have a problem They have to say always that they

would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are

locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going

to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one.

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one Do

we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan

Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are

some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse.

Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do

on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile

state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or

in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was

a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten

months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember

them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that

last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were

trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had

something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There

are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance

of it! If the most recent polls are to be

believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -

clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the

appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission

president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP

contingent to Strasbourg for the first session

of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to

say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50

years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that

want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our

countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we

will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!

It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the

Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.

Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -

Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.

Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is

probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know

well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my

qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are

your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of

UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative

values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It

would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block

of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have

that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the

luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He

would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to

stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little

sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people

who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority

Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are

offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of

those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will

put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is

between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The

danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of

the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of

the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of

Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have

full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining

us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a

bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's

isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,

but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True.

Although some of us would say it is possible... You are speaking for the

bubble? I'm speaking for my segment of the bubble. Some of us argued

that he got it wrong diplomatically and it would be wrong politically.

It will be the passage of time. We saw UKIP decline between the 20 4

European elections and the 2005 General. You would expect something

similar to happen this time round. The question is how far low do they

fall? They are still registering 12-15% in the opinion polls. They

are. When Mr Cameron wielded his veto which again the Westminster

bubble said it's terrible, it is embarrassing, he overtook Labour in

the polls for a while doing that. He's had a Juncker bounce. If you

were a strategist, would you not conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am,

the better it is for me in the polls? In the short-term, yes. This

is the short-term thinking we are supposed to despise. The electricion

is very clever for a different -- is very clever for a different -

the selection is very clever for a different reason. It is this

anti-London feeling in Thanet South. He is a councillor, he grew up in

the constituency. He is a chartered accountant. He is somebody who can

be seen to be a champion of local people. If they had parachuted in a

special adviser, they would be in real trouble. He wants to get out...

This is the third representative of the bubble? He wants to get out of

the European Union which David Cameron doesn't want to do. It was

interesting for that statement to MPs on Monday, there were mild

Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't take this." The Speaker said can the

baying mob, the Conservative MPs, quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw,

the former Minister made it, he said, "I'm reminded when the leader

of the Labour Party before Harold Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic

speech and Mrs Gaitskell said darling, the wrong people are

cheering." That is the challenge. Thank you, bubbles!

The Daily Politics is back at its usual Noon time every day

And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11pm for the last

Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll be talking to Scotland's Deputy

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.