06/07/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


06/07/2014

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Nick Clegg, Alistair Darling, Frances O'Grady and Matthew Hancock.


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Transcript


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Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

:00:34.:00:40.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 201 .

:00:41.:00:43.

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

:00:44.:00:45.

Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.

:00:46.:00:51.

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

:00:52.:00:54.

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

:00:55.:00:58.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

:00:59.:01:00.

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

:01:01.:01:06.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

:01:07.:01:10.

joins me from Edinburgh. In the North East and Cumbria:

:01:11.:01:15.

joins me from Edinburgh. Are voters listening to Labour?

:01:16.:01:17.

And with me throughout the show three top-flight political

:01:18.:01:34.

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

:01:35.:01:37.

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

:01:38.:01:51.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

:01:52.:01:53.

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

:01:54.:01:56.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

:01:57.:01:59.

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

:02:00.:02:01.

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

:02:02.:02:04.

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

:02:05.:02:09.

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

:02:10.:02:14.

the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

:02:15.:02:19.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

:02:20.:02:25.

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

:02:26.:02:29.

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

:02:30.:02:33.

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

:02:34.:02:36.

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

:02:37.:02:41.

order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

:02:42.:02:46.

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

:02:47.:02:49.

tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

:02:50.:02:54.

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

:02:55.:02:59.

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

:03:00.:03:02.

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

:03:03.:03:06.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

:03:07.:03:11.

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

:03:12.:03:15.

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

:03:16.:03:19.

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

:03:20.:03:23.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

:03:24.:03:27.

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

:03:28.:03:34.

Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

:03:35.:03:36.

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

:03:37.:03:40.

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

:03:41.:03:45.

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

:03:46.:03:49.

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

:03:50.:03:53.

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

:03:54.:03:56.

police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

:03:57.:04:02.

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

:04:03.:04:03.

United States making the allegations lives in the

:04:04.:04:06.

been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

:04:07.:04:09.

would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

:04:10.:04:09.

for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

:04:10.:04:16.

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

:04:17.:04:20.

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

:04:21.:04:20.

inrequest -- that inquiry took 12 years to report. The problem is the

:04:21.:04:34.

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

:04:35.:04:40.

keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

:04:41.:04:42.

is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

:04:43.:04:50.

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

:04:51.:04:54.

inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

:04:55.:04:54.

that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

:04:55.:05:02.

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

:05:03.:05:02.

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

:05:03.:05:05.

case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

:05:06.:05:11.

we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do I

:05:12.:05:14.

in what a public inquiry can do. I wonder whether there is another

:05:15.:05:18.

example of a country that goes through this stale ritual every few

:05:19.:05:22.

years of a scandal emerging, the opposition calling for an inquiry,

:05:23.:05:25.

the Government saying no and then holding the line or giving in. I

:05:26.:05:28.

don't know what we think this inquiries can do. It comes back to

:05:29.:05:33.

your point, Helen, you should be careful what you call an inquiry on

:05:34.:05:36.

so it doesn't devalue the concept. On Thursday up to a million public

:05:37.:05:41.

sector workers - including teachers, firemen and council workers -

:05:42.:05:43.

will go on strike. Their unions have differing gripes

:05:44.:05:45.

but the fact they're all striking on the same day is designed to send

:05:46.:05:48.

a strong message to the government. As the economy picks up again

:05:49.:05:50.

they're demanding an end Growth has returned strongly to

:05:51.:05:52.

the UK economy and unemployment is at its lowest

:05:53.:05:59.

level for more than five years. So why is there still talk

:06:00.:06:02.

of austerity The deficit is coming down but much

:06:03.:06:04.

more slowly than the government And accumulated deficits -

:06:05.:06:09.

the national debt - The UK is now in hock to the tune

:06:10.:06:17.

of ?1.3 trillion - and rising. In fact, we're only 40% of the way

:06:18.:06:25.

through George Osborne's planned austerity, with the chancellor now

:06:26.:06:29.

saying he won't manage to balance Unions are now rebelling

:06:30.:06:32.

against tight pay controls. Since 2010, average public sector

:06:33.:06:38.

pay, which goes to about 1 in 5 Over the same period,

:06:39.:06:41.

prices increased by 16% - meaning the average public sector

:06:42.:06:49.

worker saw their pay squeezed Going head-to-head on the public

:06:50.:06:52.

sector strikes and austerity - the general secretary of the TUC

:06:53.:07:00.

Frances O'Grady, and Conservative We have seen it, public sector pay

:07:01.:07:19.

squeezed by 9% under the Coalition Government. Isn't it time to take

:07:20.:07:25.

your foot off the brake a bit? I don't think it is the right time to

:07:26.:07:31.

let go of the public finances at all. We were always clear that this

:07:32.:07:35.

is what's called a structural deficit, it doesn't go away just

:07:36.:07:39.

because the growth is returning and the economy is coming back. We have

:07:40.:07:44.

protected and are protecting the lowest paid public sector workers

:07:45.:07:50.

who weren't part of the pay freeze and now pay going up by 1%. These

:07:51.:07:55.

are difficult decisions. We have had that discussion many times. They are

:07:56.:08:01.

necessary in order to keep that plan on track and as we can see in the

:08:02.:08:06.

wider economy, it is working. People's living standards will have

:08:07.:08:08.

to continue to fall if you are in the public sector? We need to keep

:08:09.:08:13.

public spending under control and pay restraint is one of the main

:08:14.:08:17.

ways of being able... The answer is yes? The answer is this is

:08:18.:08:21.

necessary. The answer is yes, this is necessary. It isn't because we

:08:22.:08:24.

want to. We have to. This strike isn't going to change the

:08:25.:08:27.

Government's mind, is it? It does seem like the Government isn't

:08:28.:08:31.

listening. We have had years... They are listening, they just don't

:08:32.:08:34.

agree. Ordinary people, including those in the public sector, are

:08:35.:08:37.

finding it really tough. What really sticks in the throat is the idea

:08:38.:08:43.

that money can be found to give tax cuts to billionaires, to

:08:44.:08:46.

millionaires and to big corporations. But it can't be found

:08:47.:08:54.

to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school

:08:55.:08:58.

meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the living

:08:59.:09:02.

wage. What do you say to that? We have protected those who are the

:09:03.:09:05.

least well-paid in the public sector. But this is about a

:09:06.:09:10.

long-term... How can you? Hold on. You have said you have protected

:09:11.:09:14.

them. This involves ordinary people, many watching this programme, they

:09:15.:09:19.

have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is

:09:20.:09:26.

up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11% in

:09:27.:09:28.

costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in what way have you protected people

:09:29.:09:35.

from spending they have to make? Firstly, you read out the average

:09:36.:09:40.

increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the

:09:41.:09:43.

top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we

:09:44.:09:48.

could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax

:09:49.:09:52.

and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive

:09:53.:09:56.

impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20

:09:57.:10:00.

pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have

:10:01.:10:04.

got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and

:10:05.:10:09.

we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010,

:10:10.:10:15.

partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really

:10:16.:10:19.

important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have

:10:20.:10:24.

stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not

:10:25.:10:29.

spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase

:10:30.:10:33.

itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and

:10:34.:10:36.

guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.

:10:37.:10:43.

?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?

:10:44.:10:51.

I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being

:10:52.:10:58.

able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints

:10:59.:11:01.

of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The

:11:02.:11:04.

evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the

:11:05.:11:09.

Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even

:11:10.:11:17.

after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they

:11:18.:11:22.

are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?

:11:23.:11:31.

That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that

:11:32.:11:35.

report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are

:11:36.:11:39.

saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the

:11:40.:11:48.

public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are

:11:49.:11:54.

comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the

:11:55.:11:57.

workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better

:11:58.:12:03.

off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate

:12:04.:12:08.

better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry

:12:09.:12:16.

private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political

:12:17.:12:21.

strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The

:12:22.:12:24.

strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is

:12:25.:12:29.

what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government

:12:30.:12:32.

workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers

:12:33.:12:36.

are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of

:12:37.:12:40.

touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards

:12:41.:12:44.

depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real

:12:45.:12:49.

increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we

:12:50.:12:55.

certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?

:12:56.:13:00.

2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament. .

:13:01.:13:02.

be in surplus. It is testament... So, no real pay increase for public

:13:03.:13:10.

sector workers before 2018? Interestingly, this isn't just about

:13:11.:13:17.

the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, the Labour Party leadership have

:13:18.:13:20.

said it is a test of their credibility that they support the

:13:21.:13:24.

squeeze on public sector pay. I look forward to them, they ought to come

:13:25.:13:27.

out and say very clearly that these strikes are wrong and they are

:13:28.:13:30.

against the strikes and stop taking union money. It is a democratic

:13:31.:13:36.

right. Hold on. They are - they think the policy of pay restraint is

:13:37.:13:40.

necessary. Alright. On this point about democracy... Ask yourself why

:13:41.:13:49.

so many ordinary decent public service workers are so fed up. They

:13:50.:13:56.

have seen so many billions of pounds wasted through outsourcing to

:13:57.:14:05.

organisations like G4 S. In Unite and UNISON the turnout in this vote

:14:06.:14:12.

was under 20%. Alright. OK. One final question... Hold on. You said

:14:13.:14:17.

millions and millions voted on this... I want to ask you this

:14:18.:14:21.

question. Is the story in the Mail on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's

:14:22.:14:24.

on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s planning a big crackdown on the

:14:25.:14:29.

unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know

:14:30.:14:34.

the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this

:14:35.:14:38.

make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government

:14:39.:14:42.

on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of

:14:43.:14:44.

time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be

:14:45.:14:48.

an independent country?" That's the question the people of

:14:49.:14:51.

Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed

:14:52.:14:53.

the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before

:14:54.:14:57.

the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win

:14:58.:14:59.

and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading

:15:00.:15:01.

the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of

:15:02.:15:24.

independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what

:15:25.:15:30.

would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will

:15:31.:15:35.

get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple

:15:36.:15:39.

of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a

:15:40.:15:44.

number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a

:15:45.:15:50.

half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be

:15:51.:15:56.

encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a

:15:57.:16:00.

long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that

:16:01.:16:06.

is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a

:16:07.:16:12.

vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of

:16:13.:16:17.

uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising

:16:18.:16:20.

devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there

:16:21.:16:27.

is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more

:16:28.:16:33.

or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have

:16:34.:16:39.

powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are

:16:40.:16:44.

planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying

:16:45.:16:52.

different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have

:16:53.:16:55.

slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an

:16:56.:17:00.

agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute

:17:01.:17:08.

book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 199 ,

:17:09.:17:12.

people unified around a single proposition so there is history here

:17:13.:17:17.

and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in

:17:18.:17:20.

the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland

:17:21.:17:27.

vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers? I

:17:28.:17:31.

would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have

:17:32.:17:36.

something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in

:17:37.:17:40.

the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not

:17:41.:17:44.

certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,

:17:45.:17:50.

and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the

:17:51.:17:55.

past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt

:17:56.:18:02.

over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that

:18:03.:18:06.

walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists

:18:07.:18:10.

because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete

:18:11.:18:15.

break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that

:18:16.:18:20.

wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any

:18:21.:18:26.

plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,

:18:27.:18:32.

what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future

:18:33.:18:36.

of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.

:18:37.:18:42.

When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with

:18:43.:18:45.

representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that

:18:46.:18:49.

affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want

:18:50.:18:56.

to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local

:18:57.:19:00.

authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the

:19:01.:19:05.

uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would

:19:06.:19:10.

throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic

:19:11.:19:20.

arguments are dominating people s thinking, the polls show, that is

:19:21.:19:38.

what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued

:19:39.:19:41.

membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an

:19:42.:19:48.

in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued

:19:49.:19:53.

Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and

:19:54.:19:57.

conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into

:19:58.:20:01.

something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we

:20:02.:20:07.

have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate

:20:08.:20:12.

which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have

:20:13.:20:19.

to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union

:20:20.:20:24.

does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half

:20:25.:20:29.

years to get into Europe. I don t want that uncertainty or the

:20:30.:20:33.

disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with

:20:34.:20:40.

losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about

:20:41.:20:46.

is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,

:20:47.:20:50.

and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to

:20:51.:21:00.

stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the

:21:01.:21:05.

argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that

:21:06.:21:11.

over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that

:21:12.:21:17.

is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our

:21:18.:21:20.

arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be

:21:21.:21:25.

made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists

:21:26.:21:31.

win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no

:21:32.:21:40.

vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a

:21:41.:21:47.

world of difference between devolution and further devolution

:21:48.:21:51.

where you remain part of the UK. There is a world of difference

:21:52.:21:57.

between that and making a break, where Scotland becomes a foreign

:21:58.:22:01.

country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those

:22:02.:22:06.

opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with

:22:07.:22:15.

pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with

:22:16.:22:20.

passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon

:22:21.:22:26.

Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to

:22:27.:22:30.

take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign

:22:31.:22:35.

over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for

:22:36.:22:41.

remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had

:22:42.:22:47.

warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland

:22:48.:22:51.

we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from

:22:52.:22:57.

that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from

:22:58.:23:02.

saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are

:23:03.:23:06.

collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand

:23:07.:23:10.

up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is

:23:11.:23:16.

perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what

:23:17.:23:22.

you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know

:23:23.:23:38.

about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the

:23:39.:23:47.

leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was

:23:48.:23:52.

being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to

:23:53.:23:58.

blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South

:23:59.:24:04.

of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.

:24:05.:24:13.

I think it is important in this debate that people from outside

:24:14.:24:17.

politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on

:24:18.:24:22.

because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody

:24:23.:24:27.

should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will

:24:28.:24:32.

happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are

:24:33.:24:37.

making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.

:24:38.:24:45.

I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon,

:24:46.:24:53.

next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will

:24:54.:24:57.

be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European

:24:58.:25:02.

elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a

:25:03.:25:08.

moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been

:25:09.:25:17.

asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister

:25:18.:25:32.

on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the

:25:33.:25:36.

Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire

:25:37.:25:40.

results in the local and European elections so what can the party do

:25:41.:25:45.

to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line

:25:46.:25:50.

one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local

:25:51.:25:56.

support? It is a massive problem because those are the building

:25:57.:26:00.

blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work

:26:01.:26:06.

done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock

:26:07.:26:12.

on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has

:26:13.:26:17.

lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name

:26:18.:26:21.

Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming

:26:22.:26:30.

Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge

:26:31.:26:36.

and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity

:26:37.:26:41.

at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a

:26:42.:26:46.

difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position

:26:47.:26:48.

itself to win back support? Let s does the party need to position

:26:49.:26:51.

itself to win back support? Let's go to Chris online free, has the party

:26:52.:26:57.

got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a

:26:58.:27:06.

party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a

:27:07.:27:09.

of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the

:27:10.:27:12.

next election because if we don't next election because if we don t

:27:13.:27:16.

people will vote for the Tories. Nick, what do you think of the

:27:17.:27:22.

party's message at the moment? I have had a look at early draft of

:27:23.:27:27.

our manifesto and there is some good stuff in there but the authors are

:27:28.:27:32.

probably too interested in what may think we have achieved in the last

:27:33.:27:38.

five years and not really focusing on what the voters will want to be

:27:39.:28:08.

hearing about the next five years. Perhaps they should get out more and

:28:09.:28:10.

test some of these messages on the doorstep. So you want to see the top

:28:11.:28:14.

ranks of the party on the doorstep. Gareth online one also wants to make

:28:15.:28:19.

a point about the manifesto. There is clearly a problem somewhere near

:28:20.:28:23.

the top and there are some people who seem to be obsessed with power

:28:24.:28:28.

for power's sake, and happy with a timid offer but the Liberal

:28:29.:28:29.

Democrats want to change things. timid offer but the Liberal

:28:30.:28:31.

Democrats want to change things We are running out of time so let's try

:28:32.:28:37.

to squeeze one more call in. What are your thoughts on the long-term

:28:38.:28:42.

future of the party? I think serious long-term danger is that the party

:28:43.:28:46.

could be relegated to the fringes of the UK and no longer being a

:28:47.:28:51.

national party. We have gone back decades if that happens because for

:28:52.:28:55.

many years we have been represented in every part of the country at some

:28:56.:28:58.

level and we have got to rescue ourselves from that. Some

:28:59.:29:01.

interesting views but we are going to have to wait until the general

:29:02.:29:05.

election next year to find out how well the Lib Dems face up to these

:29:06.:29:10.

challenges. Thanks for listening, we are going to finish with an old

:29:11.:29:13.

classic now. # I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #.

:29:14.:29:16.

Nick Clegg, welcome to the programme. I want to come onto your

:29:17.:29:20.

situation in a minute but as you will have seen in the papers, there

:29:21.:29:24.

is mounting concern over and historic Westminster paedophile

:29:25.:29:26.

ring, and files relating to it mysteriously disappearing. Why are

:29:27.:29:28.

you against a full public enquiry into this? I wouldn't rule anything

:29:29.:29:33.

out. I think we should do anything it takes to uncover this and achieve

:29:34.:29:40.

justice. delivered, even all these many years

:29:41.:29:59.

later. How do you do it? There is an inquiry in the Home Office about

:30:00.:30:03.

what's happened to these documents, serious questions need to be asked

:30:04.:30:07.

about what happened in the Home Office and those questions need to

:30:08.:30:10.

be answered. There are inquiries in the BBC, in the NHS and most

:30:11.:30:14.

importantly of all the police are looking into the places where this

:30:15.:30:18.

abuse was alleged to have taken place. All I would say is, let's

:30:19.:30:25.

make sure that justice is delivered, truth is uncovered and I think that

:30:26.:30:31.

the way to do that, as we have seen, is by allowing the police to get on

:30:32.:30:35.

with their work. You say that, but there are only seven police involved

:30:36.:30:39.

in this inquiry. There are 195 involved in the hacking

:30:40.:30:42.

investigations. We can both agree that child abuse is more important

:30:43.:30:48.

and serious than hacking. The Home Office, there are reports that Home

:30:49.:30:51.

Office officials may have been mentioned in the dossier, people

:30:52.:30:55.

don't trust people to investigate themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept

:30:56.:30:59.

that we need to make sure that - themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept

:31:00.:31:01.

that we need to make sure that and that we need to make sure that - and

:31:02.:31:03.

the police need to make sure that the police investigations are

:31:04.:31:04.

thorough, well resourced. I can t thorough, well resourced. I can't

:31:05.:31:08.

think of anything more horrendous, I can't, than powerful people

:31:09.:31:13.

organising themselves and worse still, this is what is alleged,

:31:14.:31:17.

covering up for each other to abuse the most vulnerable people in

:31:18.:31:21.

society's care - children. But at the end of the day, the only way you

:31:22.:31:25.

can get people in the dock, the only way you can get people charged, is

:31:26.:31:30.

by allowing the prosecuting authorities and the police to do

:31:31.:31:35.

their job. I have an open mind about what other inquiries take place. A

:31:36.:31:38.

number of other inquiries are taking place. I assume any additional

:31:39.:31:42.

inquiries wouldn't be able to second guess or look into the matters which

:31:43.:31:45.

the police are looking into already. All I would say is that people who

:31:46.:31:49.

have information, who want to provide information which they think

:31:50.:31:52.

is relevant to this, please get in touch with the police. Alright.

:31:53.:31:56.

Let's come on to our own inquiry into the state of the Lib Dems. You

:31:57.:32:01.

have attempted to distance yourself and the party from the Tories, but

:32:02.:32:06.

still stay in Government - it is called aggressive differentiation.

:32:07.:32:11.

Why isn't it working? It's not called aggressive differentiation.

:32:12.:32:17.

It is called "coalition". It is two parties who retain different

:32:18.:32:20.

identities, different values, have different aspirations for the

:32:21.:32:23.

future. But during this Parliament have come together because we were

:32:24.:32:27.

facing a unique national emergency back in 2010, the economy was

:32:28.:32:30.

teetering on the edge of a precipice. I'm immensely proud,

:32:31.:32:34.

notwithstanding our political challenges, which are real, I'm

:32:35.:32:37.

immensely proud that the Liberal Democrats, we stepped up to the

:32:38.:32:40.

plate, held our nerve and without the Liberal Democrats, there

:32:41.:32:44.

wouldn't now be that economic recovery which is helping many

:32:45.:32:47.

people across the country. Why aren't you getting any credit for

:32:48.:32:53.

it? Well, we won't get credit if we spend all our time staring at our

:32:54.:32:58.

navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't be more

:32:59.:33:03.

jobs now available to people. They don't believe you, they are giving

:33:04.:33:06.

the Tories the credit for the recovery? Well, you might assert

:33:07.:33:14.

that, we will assert and I will shout it from the rooftops that if

:33:15.:33:20.

we had not created the stability by forming this Coalition Government

:33:21.:33:23.

and then hard-wired into the Government's plans, not only the

:33:24.:33:27.

gory job of fixing the public finances, but doing so much more

:33:28.:33:30.

fairly than would have been the case, if the Conservatives had been

:33:31.:33:33.

in Government on their own, they wouldn't have delivered these tax

:33:34.:33:38.

cuts. They wouldn't have delivered the triple lock guarantee for

:33:39.:33:43.

pensions or the pupil premium. OK. Why are you 8% in the polls? Well,

:33:44.:33:49.

because I think where we get our message across - and I am here in my

:33:50.:34:01.

own constituency - this is a constituency where I am a

:34:02.:34:06.

campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot of the information and say we have

:34:07.:34:09.

done a decent thing by going into Government and we have delivered big

:34:10.:34:13.

changes, big reforms which you can touch and see in your school, in

:34:14.:34:18.

your pensions, in your taxes and then people do support us and, in

:34:19.:34:24.

our areas of strength, we were winning against both the

:34:25.:34:26.

Conservative and Labour parties. It Conservative and Labour parties It

:34:27.:34:28.

is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left

:34:29.:34:32.

and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in

:34:33.:34:36.

Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -

:34:37.:34:41.

having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in

:34:42.:34:46.

our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more

:34:47.:34:52.

support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib

:34:53.:35:00.

Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a

:35:01.:35:04.

National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a

:35:05.:35:10.

National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we

:35:11.:35:14.

have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much

:35:15.:35:18.

time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing

:35:19.:35:21.

that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in

:35:22.:35:27.

challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we

:35:28.:35:30.

have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more

:35:31.:35:33.

Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering

:35:34.:35:37.

before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal

:35:38.:35:41.

reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been

:35:42.:35:45.

setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure

:35:46.:35:50.

teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in

:35:51.:35:54.

school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company

:35:55.:36:00.

from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with

:36:01.:36:03.

education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values

:36:04.:36:08.

that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out

:36:09.:36:14.

and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that

:36:15.:36:22.

you "are toxic on the doorstep". Look, as everybody knows, being the

:36:23.:36:26.

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

:36:27.:36:29.

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

:36:30.:36:34.

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

:36:35.:36:38.

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

:36:39.:36:42.

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

:36:43.:36:45.

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

:36:46.:36:49.

that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a

:36:50.:36:51.

good reason for that. They didn't good reason for that. They didn t

:36:52.:36:55.

win the election. The left say that somehow we have lost our soul when

:36:56.:36:59.

we haven't. That happens day in, day out. Of course that will have some

:37:00.:37:03.

effect. My answer to that is not to buckle to those criticisms, those

:37:04.:37:11.

misplaced Chris -- criticisms from left and right, but to stand up

:37:12.:37:17.

proudly. Is it your intention to fight the next election against an

:37:18.:37:23.

in-out referendum on Europe? Yes. Unless there is major treaty change?

:37:24.:37:28.

Our position hasn't waivered, it won't waiver, we are not going to

:37:29.:37:33.

flip-flop on the issue of the referendum like the Conservatives

:37:34.:37:36.

did. We want an in-out referendum. With ve legislated for the trigger

:37:37.:37:39.

when that will happen, when in u powers are transferred to the

:37:40.:37:42.

European Union. That is what we have said for years. We legislated for

:37:43.:37:45.

that... So no change? No change. that... So no change? No change

:37:46.:37:51.

Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep

:37:52.:37:54.

Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of

:37:55.:38:01.

what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to

:38:02.:38:07.

serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has

:38:08.:38:10.

done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years

:38:11.:38:14.

to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not

:38:15.:38:17.

just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some

:38:18.:38:23.

heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger

:38:24.:38:28.

of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in

:38:29.:38:33.

Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of

:38:34.:38:43.

that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near

:38:44.:38:48.

Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them

:38:49.:38:53.

later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm

:38:54.:38:57.

sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.

:38:58.:39:01.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:39:02.:39:04.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:39:05.:39:08.

for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:39:09.:39:09.

the Week Labour hopes to lead

:39:10.:39:18.

the race to Downing Street `nd make But has the party got

:39:19.:39:29.

the right policies ` and Middlesbrough's Labour MP Andy

:39:30.:39:34.

Macdonald and Durham Conservative councillor Richard Bell join me

:39:35.:39:41.

in the studio. And these people were thrown out

:39:42.:39:45.

of a North East town hall for trying Now the law is changing `

:39:46.:39:48.

but do the new rules go far enough? the North

:39:49.:39:55.

of England is suddenly flavour The Government's ambition to create

:39:56.:39:57.

a "powerhouse" of the north's big This week, the deputy

:39:58.:40:01.

Prime Minister Nick Clegg l`unched something called "Northern Futures"

:40:02.:40:06.

with a call for big, bold ideas to And more enthusiasm

:40:07.:40:08.

for all things northern camd from Chancellor George Osborne who

:40:09.:40:15.

dropped into Simpsons Malt in Berwick to announce more funding

:40:16.:40:17.

for businesses in the North East. This will be the first

:40:18.:40:23.

in the country like this. It is part of our long`term economic

:40:24.:40:25.

plan to support growth in all parts of our country, not just thd

:40:26.:40:28.

north`east as a region, but also in Richard Bell. Less than a year to go

:40:29.:40:33.

until the election the sudddn until the election the sudden

:40:34.:40:49.

Osbourne wants at what the north all the time. What America got got into

:40:50.:40:55.

them? I would like to think is all coordinated but I do not thhnk it

:40:56.:41:00.

is. The Chancellor's visit to Berwick was about countryside growth

:41:01.:41:01.

and the network fund which hs a and the network fund which is a

:41:02.:41:04.

continuation of a pilot that has been running for a couple of years.

:41:05.:41:09.

In my own ward we about to projects supported by that. The aucthon

:41:10.:41:11.

In my own ward we about to projects supported by that. The auction mart

:41:12.:41:14.

has built new business units and created a new business in Middleton.

:41:15.:41:18.

And a gentleman starting a coffee importing and roasting business.

:41:19.:41:21.

And a gentleman starting a coffee importing and roasting business We

:41:22.:41:21.

importing and roasting business. We grow a lot of coughing in tdas,

:41:22.:41:23.

grow a lot of coughing in teas, don't you know. ?23 million for

:41:24.:41:29.

small businesses in role in areas including Gateshead is great news.

:41:30.:41:32.

Site were not except that it is just happening now. A lot of this work

:41:33.:41:36.

has been quietly happening for a year or two. Your site last four

:41:37.:41:42.

years berating this governments for years berating this governmdnts for

:41:43.:41:45.

its lack of interest in the north. You can't complain now wonder

:41:46.:41:46.

its lack of interest in the north. You can't complain now wonddr making

:41:47.:41:49.

a virtue of getting out there? Looe`macro it is a bit late in the

:41:50.:41:52.

late to stop paying attention to the north. It is being abandoned for the

:41:53.:41:56.

duration of this administration. Absolutely it has. George Osborne

:41:57.:42:00.

seems to define the North as stopping at the M 62 until this

:42:01.:42:04.

latest announcement. The concentration on the North of

:42:05.:42:08.

England has been limited and sparse. Four out of five jobs creatdd are in

:42:09.:42:11.

London and the south`east. Why matter the figures are disputes this

:42:12.:42:15.

week when they? That the regional growth fund has done the north`east

:42:16.:42:19.

very good. The reality is that you should be welcoming the fact they

:42:20.:42:21.

are taking this seriously? H take are taking this seriously? H take

:42:22.:42:24.

the interest seriously, I just are taking this seriously? I take

:42:25.:42:26.

the interest seriously, I jtst wish the interest seriously, I just wish

:42:27.:42:26.

it had happened a long time ago We it had happened a long time ago. We

:42:27.:42:31.

have to see what the delivery is. Expressing an interest is OK, but

:42:32.:42:34.

what does it mean? What is the follow`through going to be? That's

:42:35.:42:38.

why have doubts. Richard Bell, that is a good point. There is a lot of

:42:39.:42:42.

speaking but not much commitment. The money for the businesses is

:42:43.:42:46.

welcome. And been put on a high`speed rail line having a

:42:47.:42:49.

Government department moved here. Know, and I think we should be doing

:42:50.:42:52.

more to move civil service jobs and other jobs out of the south`east if

:42:53.:42:57.

we can. I would except that. But it is welcome news. It is churlish to

:42:58.:43:00.

say nothing at happen for a fuel years. Things are happening on the

:43:01.:43:04.

ground, things have been built in my ward and on the back of somd of

:43:05.:43:05.

ward and on the back of some of these grant initiatives. Thdse are

:43:06.:43:09.

being quietly all the time. Look at Hitachi, getting money from the

:43:10.:43:14.

regional growth fund. So it is not fair to say we have been forgotten

:43:15.:43:16.

about. Things happening quietly all about. Things happening quidtly all

:43:17.:43:21.

the time. Maybe the mistake they made was leaving it a bit late.

:43:22.:43:24.

the time. Maybe the mistake they made was leaving it a bit l`te. We

:43:25.:43:25.

will return to that subject later. Now to Labour's plans to help

:43:26.:43:27.

the region's economy grow. This week, the party gave more

:43:28.:43:29.

details of its policy based upon There'll be fewer but stronger

:43:30.:43:32.

local enterprise partnerships. ?30 billion of spending

:43:33.:43:37.

on transport, schools infrastructure and housing

:43:38.:43:40.

will be devolved to city regions While councils willbe able to keep

:43:41.:43:43.

additional business rates they generate, to reinvest

:43:44.:43:47.

in local jobs and business. Those proposals are just

:43:48.:43:52.

the latest in a series of announcements from Labour

:43:53.:43:55.

as it firms up the content of its The party's already committdd itself

:43:56.:43:58.

to ending out`of`work benefits for 18`to`21`year`olds,

:43:59.:44:01.

abolishing the benefit changes it calls the bedroom tax as well

:44:02.:44:04.

as freezing energy bills. So no shortage of ideas `

:44:05.:44:08.

but how much are the party's It's a battleground,

:44:09.:44:11.

a key part of the South and Labour's held the seat since 1997,

:44:12.:44:23.

but they came perilously close to The party's majority of just over

:44:24.:44:29.

1,600 here actually makes it one of the ten most marginal Labour

:44:30.:44:35.

seats in the country. So have they made any progrdss

:44:36.:44:38.

since 2010? Do the shoppers here think they

:44:39.:44:40.

are being sold something sweeter now or do they think they'rd still

:44:41.:44:43.

getting a bit of a bit of a lemon? Time to join the bargain hunters

:44:44.:44:47.

and hawkers, then, to see if they can name anything of

:44:48.:44:49.

the recent slew of Labour policies. Even when, now,

:44:50.:44:54.

we can't afford it because we've got What policy have they got

:44:55.:45:09.

on that though, do you know? So does that worry Labour fhgures

:45:10.:45:17.

in this constituency? It would next May,

:45:18.:45:26.

I think what they're waiting for and slowly hearing are policies from

:45:27.:45:31.

Labour which will address that. So, for example, the freeze on

:45:32.:45:34.

energy prices I think reson`ted very And this week, the idea

:45:35.:45:37.

of repatriating some of the money to local areas rather than it being

:45:38.:45:44.

spent in Westminster, I think, But if

:45:45.:45:47.

the policies are not always cutting Are shoppers and traders sold on

:45:48.:45:57.

Ed Miliband? I'm a Labour man right through,

:45:58.:46:00.

so let?s see what he can do He's alright as a person but he

:46:01.:46:04.

doesn't come across with that extra I don't think is

:46:05.:46:10.

the right man to lead the party. I think David would

:46:11.:46:15.

have been better. Absolute conker, and his brother,

:46:16.:46:17.

yes. He's just got one of those faces I

:46:18.:46:19.

can't get away with, to be fair We could do somebody

:46:20.:46:25.

a bit tougher for Labour. I want Labour to come back

:46:26.:46:32.

in power so I don't mind You can't name any

:46:33.:46:34.

of their policies though? I know, yes,

:46:35.:46:38.

because I've got "baby`brain"! That rather mixed verdict is

:46:39.:46:40.

giving hope to this man. Conservative candidate Will Goodhand

:46:41.:46:47.

believes Labour's lack of appeal could help him win this

:46:48.:46:50.

seat and deliver a Tory Government. They set out saying that thd

:46:51.:46:53.

economic plan that the Conservatives had wasn't going to work

:46:54.:46:55.

and the fact it, it is working. We have had 56,000 more jobs since

:46:56.:46:58.

2010 in the North`East, we have had a thousand fall in the numbdr

:46:59.:47:02.

of people and jobseeker's allowance just in Middlesbrough South and

:47:03.:47:05.

East Cleveland in the past year. And almost in a panic in response,

:47:06.:47:10.

Labour are throwing out policies that are just not credible

:47:11.:47:14.

and people can really see through. With policy announcements coming

:47:15.:47:17.

by the pound from Labour, perhaps they do need more time to

:47:18.:47:22.

filter through to the public. On the evidence of this market day,

:47:23.:47:26.

the party is yet to seal thd deal. So has Labour got the poliches `

:47:27.:47:34.

election and the leader ` Middlesbrough to win

:47:35.:47:37.

the next General Election? Andy McDonald, remarkable isn't a?

:47:38.:47:48.

All this energy on the bedroom freeze in the bedroom tax. Not a

:47:49.:47:53.

mention of any of those. Surprise, disappointed? It is difficult for a

:47:54.:47:58.

lot of people to annunciator and able to tell us what the party

:47:59.:48:01.

policies. The reality is when it policies. The reality is when it

:48:02.:48:03.

comes to polls, the ones whdre we comes to polls, the ones where we

:48:04.:48:06.

have elections, Labour are doing well. We are returning more

:48:07.:48:08.

councillors and gaining mord job of councillors and gaining mord job of

:48:09.:48:12.

councils. So when it matters, it fills us through. Him as matter that

:48:13.:48:16.

these people are taking these things in. People have to understand what

:48:17.:48:19.

you are standing for an uttdrly get you are standing for an uttdrly get

:48:20.:48:23.

that from them. the video also showed there was some desird to

:48:24.:48:25.

that from them. the video also showed there was some desire to vote

:48:26.:48:25.

Labour as well. So I think ht showed there was some desird to vote

:48:26.:48:27.

Labour as well. So I think it is Labour as well. So I think it is

:48:28.:48:29.

filtering through even though people can't annunciator each and dvery

:48:30.:48:31.

can't annunciator each and every policy. But they are getting the

:48:32.:48:33.

message. Richard Bell, there is some message. Richard Bell, therd is some

:48:34.:48:36.

truth in because some of those people I spoke to, although they

:48:37.:48:38.

could name policies, they s`id they could name policies, they said they

:48:39.:48:44.

were in favour of Labour. There was a great enthusiasm for David Cameron

:48:45.:48:48.

and the Conservatives either. , maybe not. The difference is that

:48:49.:48:51.

Cameron has shown repeatedlx that maybe not. The difference is that

:48:52.:48:52.

Cameron has shown repeatedly that is Cameron has shown repeatedly that is

:48:53.:48:55.

capable of taking tough dechsions and his decisive and gives strong

:48:56.:48:58.

leadership. I doubt very much weather Ed Miliband is capable of

:48:59.:49:02.

that. Nonpolitical people that I speak to most often say to le he

:49:03.:49:05.

that. Nonpolitical people that I speak to most often say to me he is

:49:06.:49:06.

speak to most often say to le he is a bright bloke but is not like

:49:07.:49:08.

speak to most often say to me he is a bright bloke but is not lhke he's

:49:09.:49:08.

a bright bloke but is not like he's up to the job. We will go on to the

:49:09.:49:13.

individual in a moment. You are a councillor in Durham so presumably

:49:14.:49:16.

you are welcome that Labour has proposed radical idea this week to

:49:17.:49:22.

transfer powers? If you talk about the Adonis review, broadly, I would

:49:23.:49:27.

welcome them. They are building on proposals and ideas Michael

:49:28.:49:30.

Heseltine had a of years ago. Won but the Conservatives didn't

:49:31.:49:34.

implement them. Looe`macro the Conservatives in this region will be

:49:35.:49:37.

glad to see funding devolved centrally, so, yes, I'm not saying

:49:38.:49:41.

we would not welcome some of that devolution that has been mentioned.

:49:42.:49:46.

Greg Stone, it is a policy that is maybe not taught about in the pub,

:49:47.:49:52.

but it is radicalism to? It is good stuff, but it is a continuation of

:49:53.:49:56.

what the coalition has been doing. Blake has been involved with giving

:49:57.:49:58.

more power to Newcastle and Sunderland and that recognition that

:49:59.:50:04.

we can't just have a centralised London ` dominated political system

:50:05.:50:07.

and economic system, I think is filtering through to all parties. It

:50:08.:50:11.

has been the case for too long now include in the last Government, that

:50:12.:50:12.

include in the last Governmdnt, that the North East, given the powers to

:50:13.:50:16.

do what it can to transform the economy, transport, things like

:50:17.:50:18.

housing, it should not be taken in housing, it should not be t`ken in

:50:19.:50:21.

Whitehall. It should be taken housing, it should not be taken in

:50:22.:50:22.

Whitehall. It should be takdn in housing, it should not be t`ken in

:50:23.:50:23.

Whitehall. It should be taken in the regions. But given that, th`t

:50:24.:50:26.

enthusiasm for the north`east that you are showing, Nick Clegg this

:50:27.:50:28.

week I looked in the news release he week I looked in the news rdlease he

:50:29.:50:35.

had and is meant as a Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds. No mention

:50:36.:50:41.

Sunderland Newcastle Carlisle. We must evolve to the cities and create

:50:42.:50:46.

the economic growth we need. That is a good thing. Won but is it more

:50:47.:50:51.

focused on M 62 corridor rather than think about the north`east? Is a

:50:52.:50:54.

story had about John Prescott's Northern Way, the original cons back

:50:55.:51:02.

that macro concept for that... I think the job for the North East in

:51:03.:51:05.

particular for the north`east combine authority would is not

:51:06.:51:08.

dominated by Labour council leaders is how they can punch their weight

:51:09.:51:12.

and make and use these new powers and resources to transform the

:51:13.:51:15.

region's economy and make that happen. The evidence in recent years

:51:16.:51:18.

happen. The evidence in recdnt years has not been that good on that

:51:19.:51:25.

front. Andy, let us and so the criticism of Ed Miliband in the

:51:26.:51:28.

film. Nearly people are not getting the message cause they do like the

:51:29.:51:30.

the message cause they do lhke the messenger? Has it got the right

:51:31.:51:33.

messenger? Has it got the rhght values, is the intellectually up to

:51:34.:51:34.

it and canny persuade people? I it and canny persuade peopld? I

:51:35.:51:38.

think he can. I think Yaz all the qualities we need for a Prile

:51:39.:51:40.

qualities we need for a Prime Minister is not unusual for a leader

:51:41.:51:44.

of the opposition to be lagging behind a Prime Minister in opinion

:51:45.:51:48.

polls. But when it comes to the real poll, that can be turned around. And

:51:49.:51:52.

we are seeing consistent support for labour across elections when it

:51:53.:51:57.

matters. Is this specific about the Adonis proposals. He talked about

:51:58.:52:00.

local enterprise partnerships. We have two in this region, ond in

:52:01.:52:02.

have two in this region, one in Seaside, one of the north`e`st.

:52:03.:52:06.

have two in this region, ond in Seaside, one of the north`east. I've

:52:07.:52:08.

heard that before but I fairweather real concentration is and where they

:52:09.:52:12.

overlap, there are lots of `reas in overlap, there are lots of areas in

:52:13.:52:15.

the country where there is no distinction. At least in the

:52:16.:52:17.

distinction. At least in thd north`east of England we have two

:52:18.:52:21.

distinct conurbations. So would you begin a merger? I'm quite content

:52:22.:52:25.

with how we have gone about this in the Tees Valley. I think there is a

:52:26.:52:27.

the Tees Valley. I think thdre is a momentum there and are some

:52:28.:52:31.

successes that we can build on if we can devolve money and power to these

:52:32.:52:37.

sub regions, real money and real power, then we can make a

:52:38.:52:41.

difference. We will have to think very carefully before we go ahead

:52:42.:52:44.

with a full merger. Bitch about, is there not a danger in all these

:52:45.:52:49.

proposals as an ally County Durham gets overshadowed by either urban

:52:50.:52:53.

areas such as Teeside by Tyneside? I'd been so. All areas are

:52:54.:52:57.

benefiting. The old north`e`st benefiting. The old north`e`st

:52:58.:52:59.

structure which was abolished by structure which was abolishdd by

:53:00.:53:02.

this Government, and I may know Pollard is flat, was big,

:53:03.:53:06.

bureaucratic and expensive. They give a lot of projects to Newcastle.

:53:07.:53:07.

give a lot of projects to Ndwcastle. If you had on to the south of the

:53:08.:53:11.

region, the Tees Valley, people feel that they did not get their fair

:53:12.:53:14.

crack of the whip down therd. So I agree that the power structure is

:53:15.:53:18.

agree that the power structtre is the way forward. And all the local

:53:19.:53:19.

the way forward. And all thd local authorities are now working closely

:53:20.:53:28.

together. Ed Miliband, he's not much as much a busted flush as Nhck Clegg

:53:29.:53:33.

is the? Nick Clegg is do good job in the national interest. He has put

:53:34.:53:37.

that had a party interest and I think you look at the outcole of

:53:38.:53:39.

think you look at the outcome of this general election, the key

:53:40.:53:42.

decision will be on weather the country is correct in the ptblic

:53:43.:53:50.

finances that Labour left us. I think the former show their Miliband

:53:51.:53:52.

is very much a? Is not prime is very much a? Is not prime

:53:53.:53:53.

ministerial. There is a hugd amount ministerial. There is a huge amount

:53:54.:53:58.

of doubt in the public out `` about his policies. There are huge

:53:59.:54:01.

his policies. There are hugd divisions in the shadow cabinet in

:54:02.:54:02.

Westminster, too. For the last 25 years we've been

:54:03.:54:07.

able to switch on TV and watch our But if you wanted to see

:54:08.:54:11.

your local councillor in action, you Try to film a meeting or usd social

:54:12.:54:15.

media in the council chamber and you Well,

:54:16.:54:21.

those days appear to have gone after Local Government Secretary Dric

:54:22.:54:24.

Pickles threw his not inconsiderable More doctors, more nurses, lore

:54:25.:54:26.

midwives, more people being treated. And is official,

:54:27.:54:31.

the best NHS in the world. The cut and thrust of

:54:32.:54:34.

Prime Minister's Questions. It's this party that created the NHS

:54:35.:54:36.

and every time we have to s`ve it But while the mother

:54:37.:54:42.

of all Parliaments has being on screen for 25 years,

:54:43.:54:48.

many local councils have not been That is soon to change with new

:54:49.:54:51.

legislation about to become law So for the first time, we can

:54:52.:54:57.

bring you these exciting scdnes This has been

:54:58.:55:00.

the first meeting which Middlesbrough council allowdd to be

:55:01.:55:12.

filmed, and, while this meeting has been very calm, a previous `ttempt

:55:13.:55:15.

by people to record a meeting ended Middlesbrough Town Hall in May

:55:16.:55:18.

of this year, and an argument over somebody filming a meeting that led

:55:19.:55:28.

to the chamber being cleared All part of

:55:29.:55:30.

a long campaign to get Middlesbrough What is wrong with the membdrs

:55:31.:55:33.

of the public actually filming the That have paid a good sum of money

:55:34.:55:38.

to represent them ` being open? Very simply,

:55:39.:55:45.

it's democracy we want to see. Middlesbrough Council says ht had in

:55:46.:55:59.

the past been concerned about the potential for selective misleading

:56:00.:56:01.

or mischievous editing of footage. Now it is embracing change

:56:02.:56:04.

and allowing filming and putting a recording of leetings

:56:05.:56:06.

online following some the councils Where Middlesbrough may havd

:56:07.:56:08.

resisted, Newcastle has embraced. For two years, it has been

:56:09.:56:16.

the filming their meetings `nd has When hundreds of people wanted to

:56:17.:56:19.

come to hear decisions being made and hear that their point of view

:56:20.:56:24.

was being put forward, it was really important that we enabled many more

:56:25.:56:28.

people ` who clearly could not be in the council chamber and wanted to

:56:29.:56:32.

be part of that debate ` could The act, giving people

:56:33.:56:36.

the right to film and use social media from council meetings, also

:56:37.:56:41.

includes some of the public bodies, But will people really find watching

:56:42.:56:43.

council meetings riveting? I was asked a few months ago

:56:44.:56:48.

by a councillor I bumped into in the town centre `

:56:49.:56:53.

why do I go to these meetings? Add do think will rival the

:56:54.:57:09.

x`height! Middlesbrough councillor to be dragged and kicked into

:57:10.:57:14.

allowing them to format meeting. What are be got to hide? personally,

:57:15.:57:19.

nothing! I've always thought we should film Council meetings, I

:57:20.:57:22.

think it is a very welcome move. think it is a very welcome move.

:57:23.:57:24.

When I was a council in the 90s I When I was a council in the 90s, I

:57:25.:57:29.

thought then it might be a good a dear that macro idea to publish

:57:30.:57:33.

these things. Now we have social media, it makes it easier to but it

:57:34.:57:37.

on websites and the rest of it. So I think it is a step forward. See want

:57:38.:57:41.

to thank Eric pickles was striking a blow for democracy? Good for him.

:57:42.:57:47.

Richard Bell, do have any concerns about this? Meetings could be

:57:48.:57:51.

hijacked potentially when people are hijacked potentially when people are

:57:52.:57:52.

cameras are there? Selectivd cameras are there? Selective

:57:53.:57:54.

extracts it is not without `ny extracts it is not without any

:57:55.:58:00.

danger? I have reservations. We'll welcome people coming along and

:58:01.:58:03.

filming. But you played thehr filming. But you played thehr

:58:04.:58:07.

extracts from Prime Minister's Questions, and that is probably

:58:08.:58:08.

extracts from Prime Minister's Questions, and that is prob`bly the

:58:09.:58:08.

least productive part of the least productive part of the

:58:09.:58:13.

Parliamentary week. It is a football match, throwing rocks at each other

:58:14.:58:17.

kind of mentality. The real work of Parliament does get televised

:58:18.:58:18.

because it is boring and tale. I because it is boring and tame. I

:58:19.:58:21.

fear there is a danger that people will home in on the juicy or the

:58:22.:58:27.

outrageous. A typical counchl outrageous. A typical counchl

:58:28.:58:33.

meeting last over two hours and that is not gripping television. There is

:58:34.:58:39.

a point here, isn't there? Letting cameras into the Commons has not

:58:40.:58:43.

enhance the reputation of MPs has its? the point is well made about

:58:44.:58:45.

select committees and elsewhere, its? the point is well made about

:58:46.:58:47.

select committees and elsewhere, and of course, quite frankly, it is

:58:48.:58:52.

tedious. It is a bit like televising trials, criminal trials. A lot of

:58:53.:58:57.

the work is dull and it is not good for television. Nevertheless, there

:58:58.:59:00.

is a democracy point here and I think it is superb that people can

:59:01.:59:05.

see what the politicians and elected representatives are doing in their

:59:06.:59:08.

names. Should Labour Day to step further and open up hospital trust

:59:09.:59:16.

meetings? Let's do this first and see how we get on. I think xou

:59:17.:59:19.

meetings? Let's do this first and see how we get on. I think you run

:59:20.:59:19.

see how we get on. I think xou run the risk of creating a situation in

:59:20.:59:21.

the risk of creating a situ`tion in which everything will be televised

:59:22.:59:24.

and then it may close down some frank and open debates that people

:59:25.:59:29.

testing each other out in a way they might not want to do. Let's start

:59:30.:59:33.

going down the road and see how far we get. But putting council meetings

:59:34.:59:37.

on the web is an excellent step forward, I think. Bead at the end

:59:38.:59:43.

was good to watch them do you? I was told at our last full counchl

:59:44.:59:44.

meeting which, if I have to say, told at our last full council

:59:45.:59:46.

meeting which, if I have to say was a lively one. The numbers of people

:59:47.:59:55.

following steadily fell through because of the meeting. Does that

:59:56.:59:56.

mean you should raise game `ddict? mean you should raise game `ddict?

:59:57.:00:01.

Maybe will make people make shorter, sharper speeches? brats. But a lot

:00:02.:00:07.

of business is relatively dtll, it needs to be thorough and it needs to

:00:08.:00:11.

be done diligently. It is a make for exciting television as a spdctator

:00:12.:00:12.

exciting television as a spectator sport. What would you say to Eric

:00:13.:00:19.

pickles? I would say councils have nothing to hide let us try them and

:00:20.:00:21.

if it works, we could look at if it works, we could look `t

:00:22.:00:22.

extending it further. You have to extending it further. You h`ve to

:00:23.:00:27.

make sure that people have the opportunity to have frank

:00:28.:00:30.

conversations and fly ideas and not everything that is aired in a public

:00:31.:00:34.

body is necessarily going to be a firm proposal. Again, it is back to

:00:35.:00:38.

this business of selective reporting. If you're having to

:00:39.:00:43.

stream hours of it, it may not be quite interesting.

:00:44.:00:45.

Now, a committee of MPs travelled to South Tyneside on Friday to hear

:00:46.:00:48.

from people using food banks and from those running them.

:00:49.:00:50.

Here's Mark Denton with that and the rest of the week's news

:00:51.:00:53.

Nestle is to become the first major money factor to commit to paint the

:00:54.:01:06.

money factor to commit to p`int the living wage. The firm, which has its

:01:07.:01:09.

confectionery headquarters hn York confectionery headquarters in York

:01:10.:01:12.

already plays that Rocca pays a living wage to its 8000 employees.

:01:13.:01:18.

It all up in a Saint agency workers and contract staff. Cumbria county

:01:19.:01:20.

council's Chief Executive was pay council's Chief Executive w`s pay

:01:21.:01:22.

more than ?100,000 widgets at the more than ?100,000 widgets at the

:01:23.:01:23.

retirement last year. She ldft retirement last year. She left

:01:24.:01:28.

council last May and the details of a payoff which includes pension

:01:29.:01:32.

contributions were revealed this week by BBC radio Cumbria. An

:01:33.:01:34.

week by BBC radio Cumbria. @n enquiry by MPs into hunger food

:01:35.:01:37.

poverty came to South Tyneshde on Friday to hear from people using

:01:38.:01:38.

Friday to hear from people tsing food banks. The all`party group

:01:39.:01:44.

includes this MP. we want to look at the rise of food poverty in the UK

:01:45.:01:48.

and makes recommendations to the Government about what needs to

:01:49.:01:52.

change. Won finally, the Northeast's new Euro MPs for Labour

:01:53.:01:54.

and UKIP have taken their seats Northeast's new Euro MPs for Labour

:01:55.:01:57.

and UKIP have taken their sdats in and UKIP have taken their seats in

:01:58.:01:58.

the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

:01:59.:02:02.

I'm off to don my Lycra and catch up with the Tour ` I think they've

:02:03.:02:07.

But we'll be back same time, same place next week for

:02:08.:02:12.

progress in London was being made before that started. I wish we had

:02:13.:02:16.

longer for that. It is all over to you.

:02:17.:02:20.

What will Thursday's mass public sector strike achieve?

:02:21.:02:22.

Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker attacks clawed back support

:02:23.:02:24.

And is Alan Johnson really thinking about challenging Ed Miliband

:02:25.:02:28.

We will start with the strikes, Matt Hancock was hardline in the

:02:29.:02:48.

head-to-head that he did with the TUC. I guess that the Tory internal

:02:49.:02:53.

polling and focus groups must be telling them that there are votes in

:02:54.:02:58.

taking a tough line? There is that and there is the fact that they are

:02:59.:03:06.

now much more confident on any economic policy two or three years

:03:07.:03:12.

ago. They shied away from it because the economy was shrinking, there was

:03:13.:03:15.

still a danger that public sector job losses would lead to higher

:03:16.:03:19.

unemployment overall. Now, the economy is growing, they have a good

:03:20.:03:25.

story to sell about employment so they are much more bolshy and brazen

:03:26.:03:29.

than they were two or three years ago. They know that it always causes

:03:30.:03:34.

problems for Labour. Labour is naturally sympathetic to the public

:03:35.:03:40.

sector workers, pay being squeezed, they are striking to make an issue

:03:41.:03:45.

of it. And yet they can't quite come out and give the unions 100% Labour

:03:46.:03:50.

support? Exactly. You saw Tristram Hunt on the Marr Show this morning

:03:51.:03:54.

squirming to support the idea of strikes, but not this particular

:03:55.:03:56.

strike. It was always the question that gets asked to Labour - who

:03:57.:04:00.

funds you? That is a real problem. The bit that gets me is they trail

:04:01.:04:04.

this ef are I time there is a -- every time there is a strike, this

:04:05.:04:09.

idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.

:04:10.:04:13.

Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to

:04:14.:04:17.

talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal

:04:18.:04:26.

for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike

:04:27.:04:30.

law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to

:04:31.:04:33.

stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze

:04:34.:04:38.

or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till

:04:39.:04:43.

2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.

:04:44.:04:49.

This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010. At

:04:50.:04:51.

strikes that took place in 2010 At that time, the TUC and the Labour

:04:52.:04:54.

Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,

:04:55.:05:00.

not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time

:05:01.:05:04.

round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about

:05:05.:05:11.

wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the

:05:12.:05:15.

recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky

:05:16.:05:23.

territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something

:05:24.:05:27.

out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase

:05:28.:05:34.

in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a

:05:35.:05:37.

problem? They do have a problem They have to say always that they

:05:38.:05:40.

would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are

:05:41.:05:45.

locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going

:05:46.:05:48.

to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some

:05:49.:05:57.

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one.

:05:58.:05:58.

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one Do

:05:59.:06:02.

we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan

:06:03.:06:06.

Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are

:06:07.:06:11.

some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse.

:06:12.:06:14.

Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do

:06:15.:06:19.

on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile

:06:20.:06:24.

state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or

:06:25.:06:29.

in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was

:06:30.:06:34.

a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten

:06:35.:06:37.

months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember

:06:38.:06:41.

them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that

:06:42.:06:49.

last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were

:06:50.:07:01.

trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had

:07:02.:07:05.

something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There

:07:06.:07:12.

are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance

:07:13.:07:16.

of it! If the most recent polls are to be

:07:17.:07:19.

believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -

:07:20.:07:21.

clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the

:07:22.:07:25.

appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission

:07:26.:07:28.

president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP

:07:29.:07:31.

contingent to Strasbourg for the first session

:07:32.:07:34.

of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to

:07:35.:07:53.

say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50

:07:54.:07:58.

years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that

:07:59.:08:01.

want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our

:08:02.:08:06.

countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we

:08:07.:08:14.

will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!

:08:15.:08:21.

It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the

:08:22.:08:23.

Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.

:08:24.:08:26.

Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -

:08:27.:08:28.

Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.

:08:29.:08:30.

Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is

:08:31.:08:41.

probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know

:08:42.:08:47.

well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my

:08:48.:08:50.

qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are

:08:51.:08:55.

your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of

:08:56.:09:00.

UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative

:09:01.:09:06.

values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It

:09:07.:09:12.

would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block

:09:13.:09:17.

of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have

:09:18.:09:19.

that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the

:09:20.:09:23.

luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He

:09:24.:09:28.

would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to

:09:29.:09:32.

stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little

:09:33.:09:37.

sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people

:09:38.:09:40.

who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority

:09:41.:09:44.

Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are

:09:45.:09:48.

offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of

:09:49.:09:53.

those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will

:09:54.:09:58.

put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is

:09:59.:10:03.

between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

:10:04.:10:10.

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

:10:11.:10:12.

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The

:10:13.:10:14.

danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of

:10:15.:10:18.

the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of

:10:19.:10:22.

the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of

:10:23.:10:27.

Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have

:10:28.:10:36.

full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining

:10:37.:10:43.

us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a

:10:44.:10:51.

bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's

:10:52.:10:58.

isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,

:10:59.:11:03.

but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True.

:11:04.:11:06.

Although some of us would say it is possible... You are speaking for the

:11:07.:11:10.

bubble? I'm speaking for my segment of the bubble. Some of us argued

:11:11.:11:14.

that he got it wrong diplomatically and it would be wrong politically.

:11:15.:11:27.

It will be the passage of time. We saw UKIP decline between the 20 4

:11:28.:11:32.

European elections and the 2005 General. You would expect something

:11:33.:11:37.

similar to happen this time round. The question is how far low do they

:11:38.:11:41.

fall? They are still registering 12-15% in the opinion polls. They

:11:42.:11:46.

are. When Mr Cameron wielded his veto which again the Westminster

:11:47.:11:50.

bubble said it's terrible, it is embarrassing, he overtook Labour in

:11:51.:11:54.

the polls for a while doing that. He's had a Juncker bounce. If you

:11:55.:11:59.

were a strategist, would you not conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am,

:12:00.:12:03.

the better it is for me in the polls? In the short-term, yes. This

:12:04.:12:14.

is the short-term thinking we are supposed to despise. The electricion

:12:15.:12:17.

is very clever for a different -- is very clever for a different -

:12:18.:12:21.

the selection is very clever for a different reason. It is this

:12:22.:12:26.

anti-London feeling in Thanet South. He is a councillor, he grew up in

:12:27.:12:29.

the constituency. He is a chartered accountant. He is somebody who can

:12:30.:12:32.

be seen to be a champion of local people. If they had parachuted in a

:12:33.:12:36.

special adviser, they would be in real trouble. He wants to get out...

:12:37.:12:40.

This is the third representative of the bubble? He wants to get out of

:12:41.:12:44.

the European Union which David Cameron doesn't want to do. It was

:12:45.:12:48.

interesting for that statement to MPs on Monday, there were mild

:12:49.:12:52.

Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't take this." The Speaker said can the

:12:53.:12:58.

baying mob, the Conservative MPs, quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw,

:12:59.:13:03.

the former Minister made it, he said, "I'm reminded when the leader

:13:04.:13:09.

of the Labour Party before Harold Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic

:13:10.:13:15.

speech and Mrs Gaitskell said darling, the wrong people are

:13:16.:13:19.

cheering." That is the challenge. Thank you, bubbles!

:13:20.:13:22.

The Daily Politics is back at its usual Noon time every day

:13:23.:13:26.

And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11pm for the last

:13:27.:13:31.

Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll be talking to Scotland's Deputy

:13:32.:13:36.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:37.:13:44.

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate including interviews with the deputy prime Minister, Nick Clegg, former chancellor Alistair Darling, Frances O'Grady of the TUC, and skills minister Matthew Hancock.


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