13/07/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


13/07/2014

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news and debate. Andrew Neil is joined by Scotland's deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon to discuss Scotland's referendum.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 13/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay

:00:37.:00:42.

As the campaign heads for the final furlong,

:00:43.:00:45.

what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?

:00:46.:00:49.

The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.

:00:50.:00:53.

David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.

:00:54.:00:56.

Many of those tipped for promotion are women.

:00:57.:00:58.

So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or

:00:59.:01:02.

And don't know whether to support Germany or

:01:03.:01:11.

In the North East and Cumbrha: political guide to the World Cup.

:01:12.:01:20.

A week of strikes but will it alter the Government's

:01:21.:01:22.

And what future does the co`operative movement have

:01:23.:01:25.

It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the

:01:26.:01:41.

Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis

:01:42.:01:46.

we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer.

:01:47.:01:50.

And for top political analysis you may

:01:51.:01:52.

as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick

:01:53.:01:56.

David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday.

:01:57.:02:06.

The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be

:02:07.:02:09.

in and who'll be out, though they don't really know.

:02:10.:02:11.

The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines,

:02:12.:02:14.

reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox

:02:15.:02:16.

is in line for a return to the political front line.

:02:17.:02:20.

But there's general agreement that women will do well and some

:02:21.:02:27.

of the old men in suits guard will do badly.

:02:28.:02:30.

Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme.

:02:31.:02:40.

It's good to make parliament more representative.

:02:41.:02:46.

But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create

:02:47.:02:49.

injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job.

:02:50.:02:53.

And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being

:02:54.:03:01.

accelerated too far too fast and they come to

:03:02.:03:03.

a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves.

:03:04.:03:09.

I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is

:03:10.:03:23.

going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not

:03:24.:03:31.

be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It

:03:32.:03:36.

is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a

:03:37.:03:43.

great interest in talking it up. The government says, haven't we

:03:44.:03:47.

refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government.

:03:48.:03:51.

David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the

:03:52.:03:58.

old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and

:03:59.:04:02.

a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations.

:04:03.:04:09.

A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to

:04:10.:04:15.

move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being

:04:16.:04:20.

very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority

:04:21.:04:25.

voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not

:04:26.:04:31.

do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot

:04:32.:04:37.

of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list

:04:38.:04:42.

which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all

:04:43.:04:47.

of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a

:04:48.:04:52.

long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging

:04:53.:04:57.

feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has

:04:58.:05:01.

an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by

:05:02.:05:11.

that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions

:05:12.:05:14.

because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking

:05:15.:05:20.

about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that

:05:21.:05:24.

embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach

:05:25.:05:28.

if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless

:05:29.:05:34.

but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would

:05:35.:05:40.

have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be

:05:41.:05:52.

pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised

:05:53.:05:55.

expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be

:05:56.:06:00.

given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are

:06:01.:06:05.

given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks

:06:06.:06:10.

perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female

:06:11.:06:15.

commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has

:06:16.:06:24.

made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a

:06:25.:06:30.

better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We

:06:31.:06:37.

are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time

:06:38.:06:43.

as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be

:06:44.:06:49.

able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like

:06:50.:06:56.

Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There would be

:06:57.:07:05.

great scepticism of giving it to Andrew Lansley. People would think

:07:06.:07:08.

he was the man who mucked up the reform of the NHS. Who is it going

:07:09.:07:17.

to be? Either a woman or a man. I would not be surprised if they go

:07:18.:07:22.

for someone believe dynamic. Someone who would square the party. Would

:07:23.:07:29.

that not mean a by-election? It might. She is a high profile

:07:30.:07:36.

Eurosceptic. She is a very competent former banker. It would be the smart

:07:37.:07:40.

choice. I have no idea but my favourite rumour is Michael Howard.

:07:41.:07:42.

That had some legs for a while. The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street

:07:43.:07:50.

predict with confidence that the PM is going to promote more women

:07:51.:07:55.

in his cabinet reshuffle. The move can be seen as part

:07:56.:07:56.

of a move across British public life to do more to make our institutions

:07:57.:08:00.

less male and less white. But as the list

:08:01.:08:03.

of schemes to encourage diversity grows ever-longer, have we abandoned

:08:04.:08:05.

the idea of appointment by merit? Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for

:08:06.:08:20.

new trains. It does not get more macho than the Crossrail project.

:08:21.:08:25.

When Crossrail looked at the construction industry they realise

:08:26.:08:26.

that less than 20% was made up construction industry they realise

:08:27.:08:38.

women and they asked, can we fix it? They are trying with a recruitment

:08:39.:08:39.

drive that has brought in female engineers like this woman. She even

:08:40.:08:46.

has a tunnel named after her. Having more female engineers and

:08:47.:08:50.

construction brings a bigger range of opinions, a bigger range of

:08:51.:08:56.

ideas, more diversity, into the industry, and makes it better as a

:08:57.:09:01.

whole. It is the issue being grappled in another male dominated

:09:02.:09:04.

workplace, the Cabinet. There is about to be a reach shuffle and the

:09:05.:09:08.

rumour is David Cameron is going to promote a lot of female ministers.

:09:09.:09:12.

It was a lack of promotion that annoyed Harriet Harman this week.

:09:13.:09:18.

She claimed Gordon Brown did not make her Deputy Prime Minister

:09:19.:09:22.

because she was a woman. It was strange that in a hard-fought highly

:09:23.:09:25.

contested election to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, and

:09:26.:09:30.

having won against men in the Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy

:09:31.:09:34.

leader of the Labour Party I discovered that I was not to be

:09:35.:09:39.

appointed as Deputy Prime Minister. For women in this country, no matter

:09:40.:09:43.

how able they are, the matter how hard they might work, they are still

:09:44.:09:49.

not equal. There are initiatives to make the world feel more equal. In

:09:50.:09:54.

the City the EU wants a quarter for women in the boardroom but that goal

:09:55.:09:59.

of making 40% of the top floor female. At the BBC the boss of the

:10:00.:10:04.

TV division says no panel show should ever be all-male. In the ever

:10:05.:10:10.

glamorous movie business the British film Institute announced their new

:10:11.:10:14.

thematic system to get lottery funding projects improving diversity

:10:15.:10:20.

on screen and off and helping social mobility. Employers like Crossrail

:10:21.:10:28.

are not allowed to positively discriminate but under the quality

:10:29.:10:32.

act of 2010 if two candidate for a job are just as good you are allowed

:10:33.:10:36.

to base your decision on characteristics like race, sexuality

:10:37.:10:41.

and gender. Some worry it has chipped away at the idea of hiring

:10:42.:10:48.

on merit. A woman and three men going for a job, two of the men are

:10:49.:10:53.

really good and the woman is not quite as good but she gets the job

:10:54.:10:57.

anyway. That will create injustice, a feeling that she did not deserve

:10:58.:11:04.

the job, resentment. It does not advance equality in society at all.

:11:05.:11:14.

On this project they want to leave a concrete legacy of a more diverse

:11:15.:11:18.

construction industry. The question is, what tools do you use when it

:11:19.:11:20.

comes to the rest of society? I'm joined now by

:11:21.:11:31.

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist for the Independent,

:11:32.:11:32.

and by Munira Mirza, the deputy mayor of London responsible

:11:33.:11:35.

for education and culture. Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches

:11:36.:11:48.

though. Should David Cameron be promoting women? He is going to do

:11:49.:11:55.

it anyway. He should have a long time ago. It does not feel quite

:11:56.:12:00.

right that a few months before the election it would do the party a lot

:12:01.:12:06.

of good to be seen as a party properly reflective of the entire

:12:07.:12:11.

population. He should promote women because they are women? I think he

:12:12.:12:15.

should think about lots of different factors, whether the people he wants

:12:16.:12:18.

promote have proven themselves in their current reefs, whether they

:12:19.:12:25.

are good performers in the media, whether they represent different

:12:26.:12:30.

parts of the party, but the main principle is to promote on basis of

:12:31.:12:34.

merit. There are many talented women who fill that description. It should

:12:35.:12:39.

be that merit is the important thing rather than what you were born with.

:12:40.:12:43.

The thing about positive discrimination as it flies in the

:12:44.:12:47.

face of that kind of principle. You are shaking your head. We have

:12:48.:12:52.

always had positive discrimination. Men of a certain class have

:12:53.:12:59.

appointed in their own image because they feel most comfortable with

:13:00.:13:04.

that. We have had unspoken positive discrimination in this country and

:13:05.:13:06.

every other country throughout history. We are asking as women,

:13:07.:13:11.

every other country throughout history. We are asking as women all

:13:12.:13:13.

minorities, let us get into the same game. What do you say? You cannot

:13:14.:13:19.

solve the racism or the sexism of the past by more racism and sexism.

:13:20.:13:25.

It is not the past. There are complex reasons why a smaller number

:13:26.:13:29.

of women will appear in certain industries. It has a lot to do with

:13:30.:13:35.

childcare, education, expected. You cannot short cut that by setting a

:13:36.:13:39.

target. That is not how you achieve equality. Things are changing and

:13:40.:13:43.

more women are appearing in engineering and so on but it will

:13:44.:13:48.

take time. My worry is that these kinds of measures are

:13:49.:13:50.

counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it on

:13:51.:13:52.

their own merit rather counter-productive and undermine the

:13:53.:13:54.

perception that women can do it than because they need a helping hand. It

:13:55.:14:00.

is not a helping hand. It is to say, we are as good as men and these

:14:01.:14:10.

hidden barriers. Dot. Either they are not as good or they do not want

:14:11.:14:12.

it, which is just how we persuade are not as good or they do not want

:14:13.:14:17.

it, which ourselves that it is not happening, or there are barriers.

:14:18.:14:21.

How we judge meritocracy is at the heart of it. Are lots of industries

:14:22.:14:30.

won there are not that many women, such as engineering. We need more

:14:31.:14:36.

engineers generally. I think it is fine to try to encourage more women

:14:37.:14:42.

to study that subject. By setting a target you put pressure on an

:14:43.:14:50.

organisation. You tried to ignore the complex reasons why women do not

:14:51.:15:11.

go into those sectors. I think an all-female short list achieved

:15:12.:15:21.

miracle in Parliament. This is following up from having an

:15:22.:15:25.

injection of women coming up because the system was changed and a large

:15:26.:15:28.

percentage of women went into Parliament under the all-female

:15:29.:15:35.

short list were brilliant, so why not? So if the Prime Minister is

:15:36.:15:43.

mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has to be female and vice versa? Yes,

:15:44.:15:50.

absolutely, 50-50. We need to reflect the population. If we want

:15:51.:16:00.

to play this as a symbolic gesture, ideally we should have one of each.

:16:01.:16:05.

Why should a man get the job if you have a great female prime minister

:16:06.:16:11.

and a great female Deputy Prime Minister? I personally wouldn't mind

:16:12.:16:18.

this. I hear the disgruntled man and I want to come -- them to come with

:16:19.:16:28.

us. You're choosing people on the basis of traits they were born

:16:29.:16:33.

with. Are there too many Indian doctors in the NHS? I would argue

:16:34.:16:39.

not. Given that we tend to have male prime ministers rather than female

:16:40.:16:43.

ones, and we don't see another female one coming down the pipe very

:16:44.:16:50.

quickly... In the time before women short lists by the way. If you had a

:16:51.:16:57.

male prime minister with a female Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that

:16:58.:17:03.

give some balance? Why women? Why not working class person, which

:17:04.:17:08.

group do you prioritise? I would go with you that we need something

:17:09.:17:12.

fundamental to change. This idea that what we have now is a

:17:13.:17:17.

reflection of a genuine meritocracy is highly questionable. I would

:17:18.:17:21.

argue that when you look at the statistics things are changing.

:17:22.:17:23.

argue that when you look at the statistics things There are more

:17:24.:17:26.

women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend,

:17:27.:17:28.

women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend but

:17:29.:17:34.

if you are trying to appoint people on what they were born with... That

:17:35.:17:38.

is not the only reason but it is an additional reason. She has to be

:17:39.:17:42.

able to do the job, obviously. I am saying the policy of hazard to

:17:43.:17:48.

discrimination explicitly state that you should choose somebody who is

:17:49.:17:52.

female because they are female. At the moment there is already enough

:17:53.:17:56.

suspicion about women who are successful to get to the senior

:17:57.:18:03.

position and if you institutionalise it you reinforce that suspicion.

:18:04.:18:04.

it you reinforce that suspicion Harriet Harman is still complaining

:18:05.:18:11.

women are not being treated fairly. I think the policy reinforces the

:18:12.:18:15.

prejudice that women are not getting there because they are treated on

:18:16.:18:21.

the same basis. Although you may not want to have the all-female short

:18:22.:18:25.

list forever, wasn't it the kind of shock to the system that made a

:18:26.:18:30.

visible change in female representation, which the Tory side

:18:31.:18:38.

hasn't got? Of course it will work short-term but longer term it has a

:18:39.:18:43.

very degrading effect on the principle of equality and the fact

:18:44.:18:47.

Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't treated equally, whether it is true

:18:48.:18:51.

or not, the perception is still there. A number of women find this

:18:52.:19:00.

position must be reserved for a woman lying patronising, and

:19:01.:19:05.

speaking of patronising women, you spoken your Independent column, she

:19:06.:19:13.

presses all of the buttons for white people... Was that patronising and

:19:14.:19:18.

offensive? Probably. I wrote it because I felt that at the time but

:19:19.:19:23.

the point is that I was a token when I was appointed. The paper brought

:19:24.:19:30.

me in because I was a woman and I was a muslin or whatever. You are

:19:31.:19:35.

not writing about yourself. I was writing... It doesn't mean you don't

:19:36.:19:48.

criticise other women. We absolutely have to be tough, Manira is tough

:19:49.:19:56.

and so am I. Do you want to take back what you wrote? No. Do you

:19:57.:20:02.

really think positive discrimination has gone too far? I think there is

:20:03.:20:10.

already a suspicion out there that in certain sectors women are being

:20:11.:20:14.

promoted for the wrong reasons or ethnic minorities are being promoted

:20:15.:20:18.

for the wrong reasons. That is a shame and my worry is that by tying

:20:19.:20:24.

funding to your ethnicity or your gender, by saying you will get a

:20:25.:20:27.

promotion if you check that box, but promotion if you check that box but

:20:28.:20:31.

you feel that resentment and prejudice and undermine the case for

:20:32.:20:41.

inequality. I wanted to be treated equally, because I am capable of

:20:42.:20:47.

doing that job. Only two months to go before Scotland takes its biggest

:20:48.:20:56.

constitutional decision in 300 years - should it quit or stay with the

:20:57.:21:01.

UK? For some in Scotland campaign has been going on forever. What has

:21:02.:21:06.

been the impact on the campaign to date?

:21:07.:21:12.

Alex Salmond says Scotland would remain part of the European Union

:21:13.:21:17.

with sterling as its currency in a monetary union with the rest of the

:21:18.:21:22.

UK, but he has also promised more public spending, increased child

:21:23.:21:28.

care provision and free personal care for the elderly. The SNP claims

:21:29.:21:35.

it would leave people better off by ?1000 though that partly depends on

:21:36.:21:41.

the price of oil. With the Better Together arguing against

:21:42.:21:47.

independence, it has naturally been attacking the SNP on all fronts.

:21:48.:21:48.

attacking the SNP on all fronts George Osborne says there will be no

:21:49.:21:56.

monetary union. President Barroso told the BBC it would be extremely

:21:57.:22:00.

difficult for Scotland to join the EU after a yes vote. His successor

:22:01.:22:11.

this week said he agreed. Unions claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by

:22:12.:22:21.

being part of the UK. A poll this morning shows a significant lead of

:22:22.:22:27.

57% for the no campaign, leaving the SNP to claim it will go their way in

:22:28.:22:34.

the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister of

:22:35.:22:38.

Scotland, joins me now. You want an independent Scotland to keep the

:22:39.:22:44.

pound, stay in NATO, stay in the EU, Scotland already has all of that

:22:45.:22:49.

but you cannot guarantee it would have any of it in an independent

:22:50.:22:56.

Scotland, why take the risk? All of these things should be the case

:22:57.:23:00.

because they are in the best interests of Scotland and the rest

:23:01.:23:06.

of the UK but we want the powers to enable us to grow our economy

:23:07.:23:12.

faster, to be productive, and overtime increased the prosperity of

:23:13.:23:17.

people living in Scotland. We also want powers over our social security

:23:18.:23:21.

system so that we can create a system that meets our needs, one

:23:22.:23:28.

that also has a safety net for the most vulnerable people in our

:23:29.:23:32.

society. Independence is about letting us decide our own

:23:33.:23:38.

priorities. You didn't answer my question, you cannot guarantee you

:23:39.:23:42.

would be able to keep the pound within a monetary union, stay in

:23:43.:23:48.

NATO and the EU, you cannot guarantee you could produce any of

:23:49.:23:53.

these things, correct? I would argue that we can because these things are

:23:54.:23:58.

also in the interest of the rest of the UK. No country can be prevented

:23:59.:24:03.

from using the pound, I suggest we use that within a formal monetary

:24:04.:24:08.

union. We have had the UK minister quoted in the Guardian saying the

:24:09.:24:12.

position of the UK Government right now is one based on campaign

:24:13.:24:17.

rhetoric and following a yes vote, of course there would be a currency

:24:18.:24:24.

union. Who is that minister? The Minister is unnamed, but

:24:25.:24:29.

nevertheless that story in the Guardian was a solid one and not

:24:30.:24:34.

substantially denied. So you are basing your monetary policy on one

:24:35.:24:39.

on named minister in one story? Basing it on Common sense because

:24:40.:24:49.

monetary union would be in the best interests for Scotland but also

:24:50.:24:52.

overwhelmingly in the interests of the rest of the UK, given their

:24:53.:24:58.

trading relationship with Scotland and the contribution Scotland's

:24:59.:25:06.

exports make. We are having a very good debate and the UK Government

:25:07.:25:11.

and the no campaign, and this is not a criticism, want to talk up in --

:25:12.:25:20.

uncertainty to make people feel scared, but after independence there

:25:21.:25:26.

will be constructed process of negotiation. Let's stick with the

:25:27.:25:29.

monetary union because most economists agree it would be very

:25:30.:25:33.

good for an independent Scotland to have a monetary union but George

:25:34.:25:38.

Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander are unequivocal, they say you won't

:25:39.:25:43.

get it. You claim they are bluffing but again you cannot guarantee that

:25:44.:25:49.

so why the risk? I would say the benefits of independence are

:25:50.:25:53.

substantial but I would also say to George Osborne and his counterparts

:25:54.:25:57.

in the other parties that it would be a very brave Chancellor that says

:25:58.:26:01.

to businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary

:26:02.:26:06.

additional transaction costs of half a very brave Chancellor that says to

:26:07.:26:09.

businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary

:26:10.:26:12.

additional transaction costs of half. What we are doing is making a

:26:13.:26:18.

case that is based on common sense and voters in Scotland will listen

:26:19.:26:22.

to that case being put forward by the other side as well, and they

:26:23.:26:27.

will come to a judgement of the common-sense position. Let's look at

:26:28.:26:35.

EU membership because you haven't been able to guarantee the monetary

:26:36.:26:44.

union. When President Barroso said that a seamless transition to EU

:26:45.:26:48.

membership for an independent Scotland was anything but certain,

:26:49.:26:53.

and one said it could even be impossible, you dismissed him

:26:54.:26:59.

because he was standing down, but been -- venue EU president says the

:27:00.:27:08.

same, do you dismissed him? What we are doing... I should say at the

:27:09.:27:13.

outset of this, we have said repeatedly to the UK Government,

:27:14.:27:17.

let's go jointly and ask for a formal opinion on the EU

:27:18.:27:22.

commission. The EU commission have said they will only do that at this

:27:23.:27:28.

stage if the UK Government ask for it, they are point blank refusing to

:27:29.:27:35.

do that, you have to ask why? It is in their interests to talk up

:27:36.:27:40.

uncertainty. Scotland is an integral part of the European Union, we have

:27:41.:27:44.

been for 40 years, we comply with the rules and regulations... Mr

:27:45.:27:51.

Juncker knows all of that but he still says it will be anything but a

:27:52.:27:57.

seamless transition. He said you could not join the European Union by

:27:58.:28:02.

sending a letter, that is not our proposal. We set down a robust

:28:03.:28:15.

proposal and the timescale we think is reasonable under these

:28:16.:28:20.

circumstances. There are many nationals of other states living in

:28:21.:28:25.

Scotland right now, if we were to be outside of the European Union for

:28:26.:28:29.

any period of time, something the current treaty doesn't even provide

:28:30.:28:33.

for, they would lose their right to stay here. The interests of Scotland

:28:34.:28:38.

and the interests of European Union are in favour of a seamless

:28:39.:28:43.

transition. It comes down to common sense and people in Scotland will

:28:44.:28:45.

make sense and people in Scotland will

:28:46.:28:47.

their own judgement on who is talking the common-sense. What about

:28:48.:28:54.

NATO, two years ago you told Newsnight the SNP's position is that

:28:55.:28:59.

we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a democratic debate, we looked at

:29:00.:29:05.

whether it would be in the interests of an independent Scotland, which

:29:06.:29:08.

forms a significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic and

:29:09.:29:17.

the party changed its mind. It did so in a thoroughly democratic way.

:29:18.:29:25.

That is the nature of democracy. Would you accept the protection of

:29:26.:29:36.

the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is no doubt the SNP's position is that

:29:37.:29:41.

we do not want nuclear weapons in Scotland. That is not what I asked.

:29:42.:29:48.

The world rid themselves of nuclear weapons. One of the interesting

:29:49.:29:53.

point is of the 28 member countries of Natal 25 do not have nuclear

:29:54.:29:59.

weapons. An independent Scotland... I asked if you would accept the

:30:00.:30:09.

nuclear umbrella. The key feature of NATO's military dog train is now

:30:10.:30:15.

clear shrike. We would accept the basis of which NATO is founded but

:30:16.:30:23.

we would argue two things. We want Trident removed from Scotland rather

:30:24.:30:26.

than have a situation where might we are spending ?100 billion over the

:30:27.:30:31.

next generation replacing Trident and we would argue within the

:30:32.:30:33.

international community that the world should move much more quickly

:30:34.:30:40.

to rid itself of nuclear weapons. That is the principal position and

:30:41.:30:42.

won the SNP has held consistently for many years. You would get rid of

:30:43.:30:50.

one of the key parts of the NATO deterrent based in Scotland. You

:30:51.:30:55.

would kick that out. You would not accept all of the club rules because

:30:56.:31:00.

you do not like the idea of nuclear. Why would they like a member like

:31:01.:31:06.

you in? Because Scotland is a significant part of the territory of

:31:07.:31:09.

the North Atlantic. You do not subscribe to the rules. 25 of the

:31:10.:31:14.

member states of NATO are non-nuclear members. You are saying

:31:15.:31:23.

you do not follow the doctrine. NATO has said it wants to move away from

:31:24.:31:28.

reliance on nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland would be

:31:29.:31:32.

entering the majority mainstream of NATO as a country that did not have

:31:33.:31:37.

nuclear weapons. By leading by example our moral authority and

:31:38.:31:41.

encouraging others to do likewise would be increased. Money and oil,

:31:42.:31:47.

the finance minister has said that an independent Scotland would

:31:48.:31:50.

increase public spending by 3% a year. He would pay for that by

:31:51.:31:55.

borrowing. Your First Minister says he is going to stash money in an oil

:31:56.:32:00.

fund. You're going to borrow and save. How does that work? There are

:32:01.:32:09.

two points. Firstly in terms of the outlook for finances and what is one

:32:10.:32:11.

of the central debates of this referendum campaign, austerity that

:32:12.:32:16.

we know will continue if we stay as part of the Westminster system

:32:17.:32:23.

versus prosperity. The economy can afford a higher level of increase in

:32:24.:32:27.

public spending while we continue to have deficit levels at a sustainable

:32:28.:32:33.

level. What is the point of borrowing and saving at the same

:32:34.:32:38.

time? People who have a mortgage and the savings account would not

:32:39.:32:40.

themselves what the wisdom of that is. This is based on recommendations

:32:41.:32:47.

of our expert fiscal Commission that as borrowing reduces to sustainable

:32:48.:32:53.

levels it makes sense to start saving a proportion of our oil

:32:54.:32:57.

wealth. In Norway, which has many similarities to Scotland, they have

:32:58.:33:03.

an oil fund worth ?500 billion. Scotland is part of the Westminster

:33:04.:33:09.

system is sitting on a share of UK debt. We can continue to allow our

:33:10.:33:15.

oil wealth, our vast oil wealth, to be mismanaged or we can decide we

:33:16.:33:19.

are going to manage that resource better in the years to come. Your

:33:20.:33:25.

figures do not add up unless you are about oil prices and revenue and you

:33:26.:33:29.

have been consistently wrong in your predictions. Last year you forecast

:33:30.:33:33.

that revenues would be the .7 billion more than they actually work

:33:34.:33:42.

-- 3.7 billion. The cost of the Scottish school system gone. There

:33:43.:33:48.

were particular reasons for that in terms of interruption to production

:33:49.:33:50.

and bigger levels of investment. and bigger levels of investment

:33:51.:33:54.

Used ill have to find the money. Let me explain. They are based on robust

:33:55.:34:00.

assumptions, firstly a production estimates that is in line with the

:34:01.:34:04.

estimates of the oil and gas industry. Use of figures that are

:34:05.:34:08.

based on production of 10 billion barrels of oil. Oil and gas has been

:34:09.:34:15.

wrong as well. It is 24 billion left to be recovered. That is what is in

:34:16.:34:21.

the UK Government's oil and gas strategy so production in line with

:34:22.:34:27.

industry estimates and an oil price of $110 per barrel which is flat in

:34:28.:34:31.

cash terms would be a real terms reduction. The Department of energy

:34:32.:34:38.

is estimating $128 per barrel so our estimate compared to that is

:34:39.:34:42.

cautious. These are robust estimates based on robust assumptions. Except

:34:43.:34:49.

they have been wrong. Finally, we hear a lot from you and your fellow

:34:50.:34:55.

nationalists, you want a Scandinavian style social democracy,

:34:56.:35:00.

you know how to spend the money but you never tell us about social

:35:01.:35:04.

democratic levels of taxation. Also should grizzlies have higher levels

:35:05.:35:08.

of tax in Scotland does at the moment -- all social grizzlies. I

:35:09.:35:14.

want a Scottish style of social democracy. Free education, free

:35:15.:35:21.

medicines and balancing the books every single year. We want to get

:35:22.:35:26.

more people into work in Scotland, raise the level of distribution in

:35:27.:35:30.

the Labour market and make the economy more productive so we are

:35:31.:35:33.

raising the overall tax revenue. Over the last 33 years we have

:35:34.:35:39.

generated more taxpayer head of population than is the case and the

:35:40.:35:47.

rest of the UK. Those last 33 years, some of those years oil prices would

:35:48.:35:51.

have been high and in others they would have been law but we take

:35:52.:35:55.

different decisions. A report showed that if we go as part of the

:35:56.:35:59.

Westminster system down the plate -- route of replacing Trident then the

:36:00.:36:06.

cost will be as high as ?4 billion every year. Our share of that is the

:36:07.:36:11.

hundred million pounds a year. Let us get access to our own resources

:36:12.:36:16.

so we can make different and better decisions about how to spend the

:36:17.:36:19.

resources we have. You are promising Scandinavian style social democratic

:36:20.:36:25.

levels of public spending but you say you will not need a top rate of

:36:26.:36:29.

tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia has, that all 25%, which is what

:36:30.:36:39.

Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You are going to have the spending but

:36:40.:36:42.

none of the taxes that make it possible in Scandinavia. For

:36:43.:36:49.

mischievous reasons you are met -- misrepresenting what I am saying.

:36:50.:36:54.

The Scottish economy can afford it and we want to generate more wealth

:36:55.:36:59.

in our economy. We want to use the existing resources Scotland has. We

:37:00.:37:04.

are the 14th richest country in the world in terms of what we produce.

:37:05.:37:08.

We do not want to be wasting resources. We want to be spending

:37:09.:37:12.

resources on the things that other priority for the people of Scotland.

:37:13.:37:17.

These are the benefits and the opportunities really get if we take

:37:18.:37:21.

the opportunity of voting yes and becoming independent.

:37:22.:37:32.

Hello and a very warm welcome to your local

:37:33.:37:44.

part of the show in a week that's seen council staff, firefighters

:37:45.:37:47.

I'll be asking my guests ` the Labour candidate for

:37:48.:37:52.

Redcar Anna Turley and Yorkshire Euro`MP Timothy Kirkhope ` hf they

:37:53.:37:55.

Trouble at the Co`op ` after the near`collapse of the bank,

:37:56.:38:03.

what's the future for the whder Co`operative movement in the region?

:38:04.:38:07.

Let's start with the trade unions, celebrating their history

:38:08.:38:09.

at the 130th Durham Gala on Saturday ` at the end of a week

:38:10.:38:12.

when several of the biggest unions took industrial action.

:38:13.:38:15.

This was the scene in Newcastle on Thursday

:38:16.:38:18.

as public sector workers marched to a rally in the city centre.

:38:19.:38:21.

The GMB, Unite, UNISON and the Public and Commercial Sdrvices

:38:22.:38:25.

They say their earnings have fallen back to

:38:26.:38:30.

While the National Union of Teachers and Fire Brigades Union werd also

:38:31.:38:35.

protesting against changes to their working conditions and penshons

:38:36.:38:43.

I have been working as a care worker for 15 years.

:38:44.:38:45.

We have seen a big disparity between the pay that a norm`l care

:38:46.:38:48.

worker receives and what your better paid senior managers will bd paid.

:38:49.:38:55.

If you want to attract professional people into the services as

:38:56.:38:58.

important as what we do, thdn you have got to pay people proper money.

:38:59.:39:03.

It is as simple as that, otherwise standards are absolutely

:39:04.:39:05.

I haven't had a pay rise for about four years , I think.

:39:06.:39:12.

Basically it has stayed the same and the cost of living has gone up

:39:13.:39:16.

I've come along because I'm worried about the privatisation of schools.

:39:17.:39:24.

I'm worried teachers' pay has been eroded and it has a detrimental

:39:25.:39:28.

I am a firefighter and the problem is I have to take a

:39:29.:39:36.

If I don't pass that medical in the years leading up to 60,

:39:37.:39:43.

I'm just going to be sacked and never get my pension.

:39:44.:39:47.

The government is saying they have to deal with changes to

:39:48.:39:54.

Life is getting tougher for everybody, they say.

:39:55.:39:59.

We still have to fight for what we believe in

:40:00.:40:03.

and what we deserve, and evdrybody should be doing the same thing.

:40:04.:40:16.

They are protesting because their standard of living is deteriorating.

:40:17.:40:20.

standard of living is deterhorating. Fair enough? No. We inherited

:40:21.:40:24.

standard of living is deteriorating. Fair enough? No. We inheritdd a

:40:25.:40:26.

recession in 2010 from the previous Labour government. We have put in

:40:27.:40:30.

place measures in the last four years. They are protesting because

:40:31.:40:32.

their standard of living is deteriorating. Fair enough? No. We

:40:33.:40:33.

inherited a recession in 2000 from inherited a recession in 2010 from

:40:34.:40:34.

the previous Labour governmdnt. We the previous Labour government. We

:40:35.:40:35.

have put in place measures hn the have put in place measures in the

:40:36.:40:38.

last four years. Particularly in the North of England. I think there are

:40:39.:40:40.

small businesses and individuals who are on fixed incomes and so on. They

:40:41.:40:46.

are continuing to work and to contribute and I think to withdraw

:40:47.:40:47.

contribute and I think to whthdraw services in this way is not

:40:48.:40:50.

responsible. These aren't fat cats. responsible. These aren't fat cats.

:40:51.:40:55.

They are low paid workers. Let's take a care worker. Why not pay them

:40:56.:41:00.

a decent wage rather than seeing them with bills going up. The key

:41:01.:41:05.

point is to retain people in jobs and not to lose jobs. If th`t means

:41:06.:41:07.

and not to lose jobs. If that means we cannot give large pay increases

:41:08.:41:15.

then I think that is the better situation. I want to make sure...

:41:16.:41:22.

They didn't cause the recession. I fully appreciate that our pdople

:41:23.:41:24.

They didn't cause the recession I fully appreciate that our people on

:41:25.:41:24.

fully appreciate that our pdople on low pay and that is why the tax

:41:25.:41:28.

system has been adjusted to try help them. I don't think the acthon we

:41:29.:41:30.

them. I don't think the action we saw this week really contribute an

:41:31.:41:34.

awful lot to an understanding by the public or indeed to the goodwill,

:41:35.:41:39.

which I think we need to continue to have in terms of negotiations and

:41:40.:41:44.

the position they hold. Some Labour MPs have been supportive of this.

:41:45.:41:50.

Some have been silent. I support them. It was disappointing to have a

:41:51.:41:54.

strike because we don't want to get to that point. But we are t`lking

:41:55.:41:57.

to that point. But we are talking about hard`working people. We are

:41:58.:42:04.

talking about assistants. They have had to put up with four years of

:42:05.:42:09.

redundancies, restructures, low pay and their wages being frozen. They

:42:10.:42:12.

have a right to withhold their have a right to withhold thdir

:42:13.:42:14.

labour. A lot of people I've spoken labour. A lot of people I'vd spoken

:42:15.:42:17.

to are sympathetic because they value their services. They have seen

:42:18.:42:19.

the impact of the cuts and ly the impact of the cuts and my

:42:20.:42:23.

colleague talked about trying to preserve job losses. We have

:42:24.:42:25.

colleague talked about trying to preserve job losses. We havd lost

:42:26.:42:28.

49,000 people in the public sector, enough to fill a stadium. Given

:42:29.:42:30.

49,000 people in the public sector, enough to fill a stadium. Ghven year

:42:31.:42:30.

enough to fill a stadium. Given year and said that, if you becomd

:42:31.:42:33.

enough to fill a stadium. Ghven year and said that, if you become a

:42:34.:42:33.

enough to fill a stadium. Given year and said that, if you becomd a MP,

:42:34.:42:34.

you'll be pushing hard to give them you'll be pushing hard to give them

:42:35.:42:40.

more than 1%. I would like to see that. It is important we value our

:42:41.:42:44.

public sector. I don't want to see a fight between the public and private

:42:45.:42:47.

sector. Where does the money fight between the public and private

:42:48.:42:49.

sector. Where does the money come from? There are a number of

:42:50.:42:51.

different ways we can find money. different ways we can find money.

:42:52.:42:55.

Let's not give tax cuts to millionaires. We have seen the

:42:56.:43:01.

government giving dips away to those at the top. `` gifts. He knows the

:43:02.:43:12.

difficulties the economy has gone through. The responsible politicians

:43:13.:43:16.

should be asking for restrahnt in the exercise, rather than some be

:43:17.:43:19.

talking about trying to find money from a few very rich people in order

:43:20.:43:22.

to paper this. It is not re`listic. to paper this. It is not re`listic.

:43:23.:43:27.

I think the whole attitude taken by some other unions, a small

:43:28.:43:32.

majority, will quite derisory to call the strikes. That is

:43:33.:43:37.

responsible. It has put a lot of people in inconvenience. We're not

:43:38.:43:42.

talking about splurging into the public sector, we are talking about

:43:43.:43:47.

a decent salary. The gap between the income and inflation is the biggest

:43:48.:43:51.

it has been 50 years. We have not treated people properly. It is not

:43:52.:43:53.

extravagant to get them enough extravagant to get them enotgh

:43:54.:43:55.

money. Well Clare Williams is from Unison `

:43:56.:43:58.

one of the unions involved You may convince yourself this

:43:59.:44:07.

strike was supportive, your members aren't going to get any mord

:44:08.:44:09.

strike was supportive, your members aren't going to get any more out

:44:10.:44:09.

strike was supportive, your members aren't going to get any mord out of

:44:10.:44:11.

it. The government is clear it can't give you any more so it is `

:44:12.:44:14.

it. The government is clear it can't give you any more so it is a waste

:44:15.:44:14.

give you any more so it is ` waste of time. I don't think it is a waste

:44:15.:44:19.

of time. I don't accept the argument the government can't afford to give

:44:20.:44:20.

public sector is a decent p`y rise. public sector is a decent p`y rise.

:44:21.:44:25.

It is a political decision to have public sector pay restraint. We have

:44:26.:44:30.

seen public sector workers have pay cuts, pay freezes. They offer

:44:31.:44:39.

currently not enough money. There is a direct correlation between the

:44:40.:44:46.

significant growth in a word poverty and region such as ours having some

:44:47.:44:50.

of the highest levels of people needing food banks and using payday

:44:51.:44:56.

loans. That is no coincidence. Some would say wake up and smell the

:44:57.:45:08.

copy. `` Coffey. I don't believe... I don't think a 1% increase is a big

:45:09.:45:16.

pay rise. Even a 1% pay rise will not shrink the gap that has been

:45:17.:45:21.

growing. The reality is that in real terms public sector wages h`ve

:45:22.:45:24.

fallen significantly behind the cost of living rises and people `re

:45:25.:45:27.

of living rises and people are struggling. The reality is that that

:45:28.:45:30.

means that as a human impact on people being able to survivd

:45:31.:45:32.

financially and provide their financially and provide thehr

:45:33.:45:33.

families, but there's also economic families, but there's also economic

:45:34.:45:36.

impact. If we want to talk `bout impact. If we want to talk about

:45:37.:45:40.

steamers were private sector and the region, public sector workers spend

:45:41.:45:42.

about two thirds of their w`ges region, public sector workers spend

:45:43.:45:44.

about two thirds of their wages in the economy. Do you expect to hold

:45:45.:45:49.

public support that if you continue to strike? If you're seeing funerals

:45:50.:46:00.

cancelled, will the public by that? Where the responsibility for the

:46:01.:46:01.

strikes lie is with the government. strikes lie is with the government.

:46:02.:46:06.

This is a political decision to impose pay restraints. Public

:46:07.:46:10.

This is a political decision to impose pay restraints. Publhc sector

:46:11.:46:12.

workers understand better than anyone the need for public services.

:46:13.:46:16.

We are not the people cutting public services at a rate in our rdgion and

:46:17.:46:18.

services at a rate in our region and we understand the impact th`t

:46:19.:46:20.

services at a rate in our rdgion and we understand the impact that has on

:46:21.:46:21.

we understand the impact th`t has on people. Public sector workers don't

:46:22.:46:22.

take strike action lightly `nd we take strike action lightly and we

:46:23.:46:27.

haven't been going on strikd frequently. The reality is that

:46:28.:46:31.

because the government was negotiate, people have been forced

:46:32.:46:51.

into this. Shirley these ballots `` surely... They don't even have a

:46:52.:46:53.

surely... They don't even h`ve a democratic mandate. David Cameron

:46:54.:46:58.

democratic mandate. David C`meron was elected on a mandate of no more

:46:59.:47:05.

reorganisations of NHS and has done the opposite. If we are talking

:47:06.:47:08.

about where we could get money from to give them a pay rise, we could

:47:09.:47:14.

save billions every haven't had done that reorganisation. Public sector

:47:15.:47:18.

workers, through their democratic rights, took a decision and they

:47:19.:47:22.

went on strike. We will come back to went on strike. We will comd back to

:47:23.:47:24.

that. Now to the Local Growth Deal that

:47:25.:47:26.

the Government sealed this week and that could deliver hundreds

:47:27.:47:29.

of millions of pounds 39 Local Enterprise Partnerships bid

:47:30.:47:31.

for money and the North East's got the third largest amount

:47:32.:47:35.

for 2015/16 ` second only to Greater Manchester and London, with

:47:36.:47:38.

money also promised for Cumbria, In the Cumbria there will be a new

:47:39.:47:52.

business and transport hub on the site of the Ministry of Defdnce s

:47:53.:47:57.

depot. ?1.5 million will go towards a centre of excellence for the

:47:58.:47:58.

nuclear industry in West Cumbria. In nuclear industry in West Culbria. In

:47:59.:48:00.

the north`east there will be a new the north`east there will bd a new

:48:01.:48:05.

oil for students in Cleveland. A business park will supply companies

:48:06.:48:09.

linked to the new rail plant in County Durham and money to redevelop

:48:10.:48:12.

the former shipyard on the Tyne. County Durham and money to redevelop

:48:13.:48:14.

the former shipyard on the Tyne In North Yorkshire there is money for a

:48:15.:48:17.

bio hub at the University of York, which will host and support

:48:18.:48:23.

industrial I/O technology companies. The north`east seems to have done

:48:24.:48:25.

The north`east seems to havd done well. Money being invested in

:48:26.:48:28.

well. Money being invested hn products which will help the

:48:29.:48:32.

economy. I really pleased to hear this. At the same time what I would

:48:33.:48:37.

say it is too little too late. We're bad little investment in this

:48:38.:48:39.

say it is too little too late. We're bad little investment in thhs area.

:48:40.:48:42.

We lost our development agency which would have been doing investment

:48:43.:48:44.

like this all the time without trying to claim any credit for it.

:48:45.:48:48.

It was just part of the day job. trying to claim any credit for it.

:48:49.:48:51.

It was just part of the day job I'm delighted to see Ed Miliband has

:48:52.:48:52.

come out and said we will devolve come out and said we will ddvolve

:48:53.:48:56.

?30 million worth of funding to local areas to come together and

:48:57.:48:59.

invest in their region. There was just part of the day job. I'm

:49:00.:49:02.

delighted to see Ed Miliband has come out and said we will ddvolve

:49:03.:49:04.

?30 million worth of funding to local areas to come together and

:49:05.:49:06.

invest in their region. It is too invest in their region. It hs too

:49:07.:49:10.

little too late? No, it is a boost. I will remind people that ?0

:49:11.:49:12.

little too late? No, it is ` boost. I will remind people that ?1 billion

:49:13.:49:12.

I will remind people that ?0 billion has come from Europe. I'm pleased to

:49:13.:49:17.

in the involved in that. I'm happy in the involved in that. I'm happy

:49:18.:49:18.

that one or two of the scheles, in the involved in that. I'l happy

:49:19.:49:22.

that one or two of the scheles, the Tees Valley, for instance.

:49:23.:49:28.

Apprenticeships are helping there. The food herb, or Cumbers in York.

:49:29.:49:33.

They are two important things for this region. In terms of cost

:49:34.:49:36.

effectiveness, the way in which the money will be deployed, talking

:49:37.:49:42.

about the loss of agencies, but the local enterprise partnerships are

:49:43.:49:45.

working with local government and councils to get their act together.

:49:46.:49:54.

I have done a calculation and in some cases it will cost ?100,000 to

:49:55.:49:57.

create each job. You might `s well create each job. You might as well

:49:58.:50:00.

pay people to go on the dold. create each job. You might `s well

:50:01.:50:03.

pay people to go on the dole. I create each job. You might as well

:50:04.:50:03.

pay people to go on the dold. I will pay people to go on the dold. I will

:50:04.:50:08.

say to you that sort of mondy, it may be expensive per capita, but we

:50:09.:50:10.

are talking about highly skilled are talking about highly skhlled

:50:11.:50:15.

outcomes, people who will contribute massively. I think it is very

:50:16.:50:24.

encouraging. I'm pleased. I'm sorry my colleague is not so happx

:50:25.:50:26.

encouraging. I'm pleased. I'm sorry my colleague is not so happy about

:50:27.:50:29.

it. The local enterprise partnerships are helping. When you

:50:30.:50:36.

speak to a lot of people in the industry is some of them are

:50:37.:50:37.

speak to a lot of people in the industry is some of them ard saying,

:50:38.:50:38.

industry is some of them are saying, we have not seen an awful lot from

:50:39.:50:40.

these partnerships. I do think it these partnerships. I do think it

:50:41.:50:44.

has another weight and muscle. Also it does not have enough funding I

:50:45.:50:49.

would like to see these being beefed up. I would like this then being

:50:50.:50:56.

given more skills. We need to get jobs while young people, to keep our

:50:57.:50:58.

brightest and best... I agree. Since brightest and best... I agree. Since

:50:59.:51:05.

they were set up, it would give them some real money to spend along with

:51:06.:51:09.

local government. That must be good for this region. Couldn't this be

:51:10.:51:15.

seen as a stunt? You can call anything a stunt. It is a sdnsible

:51:16.:51:18.

anything a stunt. It is a sensible use of public funds. It is `

:51:19.:51:20.

use of public funds. It is a sensible use of public funds and has

:51:21.:51:23.

to be something that will ststain the economy, certainly in the North

:51:24.:51:25.

East and in Yorkshire. Now, it's been an awful year

:51:26.:51:28.

for the Co`op. A bank rocked

:51:29.:51:30.

by financial mismanagement and scandal followed by the sale of

:51:31.:51:33.

the Co`op pharmacies and its farms. Indeed you might be forgiven for

:51:34.:51:36.

thinking the entire co`operative Yet Co`ops `

:51:37.:51:38.

which are businesses owned and run for the benefit of their

:51:39.:51:41.

members rather than shareholders ` And the Government believes it's

:51:42.:51:44.

a model for the future as otr It has been part

:51:45.:51:48.

of the high street for decades. The Co`operative Group, 475 stores

:51:49.:51:53.

in the region, including this new A ?1.5 billion black hole,

:51:54.:51:57.

a rescue by private investors, the bank run by the Co`operative

:51:58.:52:09.

Group has faced a series of grim But away from the familiar Co`op,

:52:10.:52:14.

from everything from funeral homes to banks, to supermarkets, there is

:52:15.:52:19.

another cooperative movement you Alison, working in this Alnmouth

:52:20.:52:23.

hotel, is part of it. This place is part of HF Holiday

:52:24.:52:29.

group. Providing accommodation for over

:52:30.:52:33.

100 years, it now has hotels It is a cooperative too with 54 000

:52:34.:52:36.

members all with the right to have They have a say

:52:37.:52:44.

in how things are run. The majority of members,

:52:45.:52:50.

so if they come here and don't like the way something is rtn,

:52:51.:52:56.

they have an input. Across Britain the number

:52:57.:52:59.

of cooperative organisations rose In the north`east there are 500

:53:00.:53:02.

cooperatives, with a turnovdr Cumbria as one of the largest number

:53:03.:53:11.

of community cooperatives in Britain running anything from pubs to

:53:12.:53:14.

village shops, with 2200 people But could the fallout from the Co`op

:53:15.:53:19.

bank spoil all that? Obviously it has been

:53:20.:53:24.

a very bad year for the group. They are looking for a recovery

:53:25.:53:26.

at the moment. This is a story of the 6000

:53:27.:53:30.

other cooperatives out there. Every time a public limited company

:53:31.:53:36.

gets into trouble, people question They never talk about what was wrong

:53:37.:53:41.

with all public limited companies That is probably a sensible

:53:42.:53:48.

thing to make that distinction. You should make

:53:49.:53:52.

the same distinction here. And the troubles of the bank haven't

:53:53.:53:54.

stopped other cooperatives growing She works for a design comp`ny

:53:55.:53:56.

in Newcastle. She says working for a Co`op has

:53:57.:54:01.

given her an opportunity shd simply If somebody has an idea,

:54:02.:54:05.

they can say the idea. It is usually passed, because

:54:06.:54:09.

we all share the same ethos. Yes,

:54:10.:54:16.

it is an equal say in the btsiness. I think at a young age I

:54:17.:54:19.

have never had that before. It is really nice,

:54:20.:54:23.

it is a great opportunity More cooperatives have tradhtionally

:54:24.:54:26.

been associated with the Labour One northern Conservatives thinks

:54:27.:54:32.

they can play a vital role The cooperative is owned by

:54:33.:54:36.

its local community members, rather than some distance monolithic,

:54:37.:54:41.

bureaucratic monster in London, Battered by losses,

:54:42.:54:47.

scarred by controversy. Now painstakingly rebuilding

:54:48.:54:55.

its image. But there's also a wider movement

:54:56.:54:57.

out there, from country hotels to It is still around and still

:54:58.:55:00.

making its mark on our economy. You were a Co`op sponsored

:55:01.:55:12.

cannonade. I essentially says cannonade. I essentially saxs

:55:13.:55:24.

parties `` candidate. When the Labour Party was formed, thd

:55:25.:55:29.

parties `` candidate. When the Labour Party was formed, the Co`op

:55:30.:55:31.

Labour Party was formed, thd Co`op decided to stay separate from that

:55:32.:55:32.

and create a template of yotr decided to stay separate from that

:55:33.:55:34.

and create a template of yotr party hammer to continue the advancement

:55:35.:55:38.

of their ideas and values. I'm really glad they have, becatse they

:55:39.:55:41.

have strong values, strong ethics. have strong values, strong dthics.

:55:42.:55:45.

They are an important part of our society and economy and I am

:55:46.:55:47.

society and economy and I al delighted to continue to push those

:55:48.:55:52.

values within politics. How damage have they been by the problems

:55:53.:55:57.

have they been by the probldms affecting the court itself? I think

:55:58.:56:02.

there has been problems in that group. No one will argue it hasn't

:56:03.:56:07.

been an extremely difficult year. As the colleague said on the vhdeo

:56:08.:56:13.

there's no reason we showed throughout the baby the bath water.

:56:14.:56:22.

`` should. I think in this current climate, we have had an economic

:56:23.:56:27.

crash, said the values and principles of our system, when you

:56:28.:56:33.

have a democratic approach, when you have values and ethics, I think

:56:34.:56:39.

those are more important and I'm delighted to see the Co`op movement

:56:40.:56:41.

delighted to see the Co`op lovement flourish. Is ironic that the

:56:42.:56:49.

government is keen on this, isn t it? I am a member of the core of

:56:50.:56:55.

movement. I've been a member for years. I believe in the Co`op

:56:56.:57:00.

movement. Not the political movement, but the movement that

:57:01.:57:05.

produces Exton to the markets and the like. I'm also interested in

:57:06.:57:08.

the like. I'm also interestdd in John Lewis and other operations

:57:09.:57:13.

the like. I'm also interested in John Lewis and other operathons ``

:57:14.:57:13.

John Lewis and other operations `` excellent supermarkets. Where it has

:57:14.:57:21.

gone wrong is that it has not pursued the commercial models that

:57:22.:57:22.

other crops, such as John Lewis, other crops, such as John Lewis,

:57:23.:57:29.

have pursued and I'm afraid `` Co`op 's, and it continues to fund a

:57:30.:57:36.

political party, the Labour Party. I think that is wrong. I am not a

:57:37.:57:42.

Labour member. I am a conservative, but I don't believe politics should

:57:43.:57:48.

come into the operation of the commercial operation. That

:57:49.:57:52.

relationship will change, won't it? This is not about the Co`op group.

:57:53.:57:56.

It is about the movement. What members are doing promoting things

:57:57.:58:02.

like credit unions and trying to tackle some of the things we have

:58:03.:58:06.

seen, like a wonder. These of ethics we want to promote. Conserv`tives

:58:07.:58:16.

are also part of that but they don't get funding from the commercial

:58:17.:58:21.

operations. A lot of Conservative MPs might say it is hypocritical to

:58:22.:58:27.

back them and then want them to back them and then want thel to

:58:28.:58:36.

reduce to a low wage. I don't think they are connected. We are keen to

:58:37.:58:38.

see the idea, the mutual idda, see the idea, the mutual idda,

:58:39.:58:40.

develop. We are very busy with see the idea, the mutual idea,

:58:41.:58:42.

develop. We are very busy whth all develop. We are very busy whth all

:58:43.:58:47.

kinds of areas, like special small banks. There's nothing wrong with

:58:48.:58:50.

that, it is just an fortunate we are becoming mixed up in Labour

:58:51.:58:52.

politics. Now, it's our final show

:58:53.:58:56.

of the series but we couldn't go without our regular round`up

:58:57.:58:59.

of the week's news ` set to a jaunty but ever`so`slightly

:59:00.:59:01.

annoying minute of music. And the real bonus is you get to see

:59:02.:59:04.

if Mark can race through it New student transport charges meant

:59:05.:59:07.

protests at Northumberland Council. Students over 16 could

:59:08.:59:16.

pay up to ?600. The council say government cuts

:59:17.:59:19.

have left that no choice. With holiday season

:59:20.:59:22.

on the way the government s`ys it is dealing with delays at passport

:59:23.:59:24.

offices, including Durham. Back in the real world,

:59:25.:59:27.

unfortunately, the situation is My office dealt with 17 urgent

:59:28.:59:34.

enquiries last week Wearside MP Bridget Phillipson

:59:35.:59:40.

criticised government plans for free school meals,

:59:41.:59:44.

saying some schools will only be Nick Clegg said she was

:59:45.:59:52.

sourly undermining the plans. Durham council says last year's

:59:53.:59:56.

lumiere festival brought in nearly ?6 million into the local economy

:59:57.:59:58.

and attracted 175,000 peopld. Finally, Penrith border

:59:59.:00:00.

MP Rory Stewart wants peopld to help him build a stone monument

:00:01.:00:03.

on the English Scottish border. He says it'll

:00:04.:00:07.

a lasting testimony to the UK. And one final bit of news

:00:08.:00:15.

and the Redcar MP Ian Swales has announced that he'll be standing

:00:16.:00:18.

down at the next General Eldction He said he was proud

:00:19.:00:20.

of what he'd achieved as an MP. And that's it for this week `

:00:21.:00:24.

and indeed for this series. Thanks to all my guests `

:00:25.:00:29.

but more importantly Assuming we've been house`trained

:00:30.:00:31.

enough for you, Now though, back to Andrew

:00:32.:00:34.

for the rest of the show. So, plenty happening in Parliament

:00:35.:00:48.

this coming week, including a controversial bill to make

:00:49.:00:50.

so-called assisted dying legal and Lord Carey has intervened in the

:00:51.:01:12.

assisted dying debate. Will it make a difference? It will make a

:01:13.:01:16.

difference because we have established in the House of Lords, I

:01:17.:01:24.

am not sure who they speak for and why they should have a privileged

:01:25.:01:28.

position, but he was a big opponent and has made a change of heart. The

:01:29.:01:35.

fact that the Daily Mail has printed this shows this is a big

:01:36.:01:45.

intervention. The Bill being pushed through, is it now on the agenda? I

:01:46.:01:51.

think it is. There are international examples of assisted dying

:01:52.:01:55.

elsewhere. The state of Oregon passed a Bill similar to this in the

:01:56.:02:00.

1990s and things have not got out of control. That has not been an

:02:01.:02:06.

expansion or abuse. It has settled down and become part of the

:02:07.:02:12.

furniture. That makes it easier for this Bill, to make the case for it.

:02:13.:02:18.

Religious people may still have a principled objection but most other

:02:19.:02:21.

people have a practical objection, which is how to put in place

:02:22.:02:25.

safeguards to deal with unscrupulous relatives or anyone else who wants

:02:26.:02:30.

to abuse this right? Once a controversial issue is only being

:02:31.:02:33.

opposed for practical reasons it is on its way to getting its way. What

:02:34.:02:38.

is the division, is it the Church against everybody else? Is it a

:02:39.:02:43.

right and left division? What is stopping it? It is a very difficult

:02:44.:02:50.

moral issue and there are people who can have genuinely held Christian

:02:51.:02:54.

beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who can be on both sides. I think that

:02:55.:03:01.

the Lord Carey intervention is potentially a game changer not just

:03:02.:03:05.

because he is a former Archbishop of Canterbury but because he was on the

:03:06.:03:08.

Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of England. That is quite a big move.

:03:09.:03:16.

The response was to say, please withdraw your bell and let us have a

:03:17.:03:21.

royal Commission. The Supreme Court kicked the ball back to Parliament

:03:22.:03:26.

when they rejected the cases of three people who had been taking the

:03:27.:03:31.

case and said, we could say that banning the right to life is against

:03:32.:03:35.

the European Court of Human Rights, but it is a moral issue and an issue

:03:36.:03:40.

for Parliament. Parliament needs to decide. The data act that is going

:03:41.:03:47.

to be pushed through Parliament. decide. The data act that is going

:03:48.:03:50.

to be pushed through Parliament In record time. To comply with a

:03:51.:03:56.

European court judgement. Tom Watson and David Davis, some dissent. Are

:03:57.:04:02.

you so prized with how united the establishment, left, right and

:04:03.:04:10.

centre is? No. There is a great quote saying this has been enacted

:04:11.:04:14.

under the something must be done act and that captures it exactly. Even

:04:15.:04:18.

Cameron says he does not want to look people in the eye and say that

:04:19.:04:25.

he did not do everything he could. There is no end to the power of

:04:26.:04:30.

surveillance. It is all was about drawing a distinction. I am always

:04:31.:04:34.

suspicious when politicians look something up and said, we have all

:04:35.:04:40.

agreed. Are there at the centre is right or is the political

:04:41.:04:44.

establishment right? I think the establishment is right. I think it

:04:45.:04:53.

is stronger than other issues. We are in a unique position where all

:04:54.:04:58.

three political parties have relatively recent experience of

:04:59.:05:01.

government so they now that security threats are not made up by

:05:02.:05:06.

unscrupulous people. The legislation being proposed is not dramatic, it

:05:07.:05:16.

is to fill a gap that was created. I do not see the political

:05:17.:05:19.

controversy. All three political parties support it. David Davis and

:05:20.:05:24.

Liberty are against that, and always are. Would you not have expected...

:05:25.:05:34.

The Lib Dems are in government, but a bit more rebellion on the Labour

:05:35.:05:41.

backbenches? There is no political controversy put outside parliament

:05:42.:05:43.

there's quite a lot of controversy about this. My paper has taken an

:05:44.:05:52.

interest in this. It is interesting, it does not feel, it is not a

:05:53.:05:58.

1950s, three public school boys setting, let us have this deal. The

:05:59.:06:04.

Liberal Democrats and Labour have serious questions. There's going to

:06:05.:06:09.

be a sunset clause that will run out in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who

:06:10.:06:17.

asked pretty tough questions, have said there are assurances. Ed

:06:18.:06:21.

Miliband did not go to public school.

:06:22.:06:25.

For many English football fans, tonight's World Cup final presents

:06:26.:06:28.

How do you pick between two traditional foes

:06:29.:06:31.

Well, if you're a political obsessive, like these

:06:32.:06:34.

three, you could always back the nation according to how it votes.

:06:35.:06:37.

The website LabourList has produced a political guide to the tournament.

:06:38.:06:39.

At the beginning of the tournament, it was a fairly balanced playing

:06:40.:06:53.

field politically with 15 left wing and 17 right-wing countries. England

:06:54.:06:59.

found themselves isolated in a group with three left-wing countries. That

:07:00.:07:01.

was the least of their problems. was the least of their problems

:07:02.:07:07.

There was a clear domination of democratic regimes over

:07:08.:07:10.

authoritarian with only six of oratory and countries making it

:07:11.:07:12.

through to the finals and the only all authoritarian tie was dubbed the

:07:13.:07:22.

worst match of the World Cup. By the second round 16 teams remained. The

:07:23.:07:26.

left had a clear advantage with nine, seven from the right and

:07:27.:07:31.

authoritarian countries all but wiped out. Two representatives

:07:32.:07:36.

remained. Both were beaten by European democracies. By the

:07:37.:07:44.

semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A right-wing Protestant Europe taking

:07:45.:07:51.

on Catholics South America. With one victory apiece, Germany knocking out

:07:52.:07:56.

Brazil and Argentina beating the Dutch, tonight's final repeats that

:07:57.:08:01.

pattern. Who will win? Angela Merkel's Germany or Argentina?

:08:02.:08:11.

We're joined now by Britain's only Labour adviser

:08:12.:08:13.

Should we read political significance in to the fact that the

:08:14.:08:27.

only time England has won the World Cup was under a Labour government?

:08:28.:08:32.

Of course. The problem is we did not qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a

:08:33.:08:37.

Labour government. We have had some pretty shoddy results under a Labour

:08:38.:08:43.

government. As someone under the left, are you backing Argentina?

:08:44.:08:44.

left, are you backing Argentina Absolutely not. I do not think it

:08:45.:08:50.

has anything to do with politics. It is a bit of fun. People should

:08:51.:08:59.

choose it is Don Hoop plays the best football and the Germans have been

:09:00.:09:01.

fantastic. They were great in 2 10 fantastic. They were great in 2010

:09:02.:09:06.

as well. They started this model in 2008 and that is the sort of thing

:09:07.:09:11.

people should be supporting. Who should a Eurosceptic support? I

:09:12.:09:16.

would not say Argentina because that is the country that has tried to

:09:17.:09:21.

seize British sovereign territory within my lifetime. You were not

:09:22.:09:29.

around for the Blitz. Believe it or not, I was not. There is a strong

:09:30.:09:33.

political case to support Germany. They are probably going to win the

:09:34.:09:45.

World Cup with a clear of -- with players of Polish origin. That sort

:09:46.:09:49.

of cultural change they have forced themselves to go through... You talk

:09:50.:09:57.

about them being right wing, but in fact the way that the German league

:09:58.:10:03.

is structured, and I am an expert, is based on ownership. It is very

:10:04.:10:08.

different from the Premier League. It is about football as a usual

:10:09.:10:17.

good. The ticket prices are lower. The fans are involved in running the

:10:18.:10:25.

club. It is a model that all English football clubs should emulate.

:10:26.:10:28.

Germany had a strong football team under centre right governments and

:10:29.:10:33.

centre left governments and a coalition. A strong football team

:10:34.:10:45.

and a strong economy. The Conservative MP who is the arch

:10:46.:10:49.

Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of the European Union and was for a few

:10:50.:10:52.

weeks ago when people were making jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker, he

:10:53.:10:58.

was outraged and said you should not do that, so he could happily support

:10:59.:11:04.

Germany. What was interesting about the authoritarian and democratic

:11:05.:11:09.

regimes, what is great is that the World Cup is run by this open and

:11:10.:11:21.

democratic organisation Fifa. It is similar to the EU in many regards.

:11:22.:11:27.

Two countries led by women. Maybe gender is the thing. We did not win

:11:28.:11:36.

under Margaret Thatcher. There's one big difference with the EU, you

:11:37.:11:41.

cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go to a European summit. Did you know

:11:42.:11:49.

that Italy won two world cups under Mussolini? Can we draw any

:11:50.:11:58.

conclusions between a political system and the performance of the

:11:59.:12:04.

football team? You can draw certain parallels between maybe national

:12:05.:12:07.

cliches, so the Germans are efficient and effective, which might

:12:08.:12:15.

reflect and the English are very polite so we let everyone score

:12:16.:12:19.

first and go into the second round. We put ourselves at the back of the

:12:20.:12:24.

queue. Is England going to qualify for the European? We are going to

:12:25.:12:36.

win the European Championship. The first country Scotland have to play

:12:37.:12:39.

is Germany. What could possibly go wrong? Who is going to win? Germany.

:12:40.:12:52.

Germany. I am going to put a few bob on Argentina. Are you going to be

:12:53.:12:56.

watching? Absolutely. Thank you. This is the last Sunday Politics

:12:57.:13:03.

for the summer. But we'll be back in early autumn

:13:04.:13:08.

and our first programme will be live from Scotland,

:13:09.:13:11.

the weekend before the referendum The Daily Politics is back tomorrow

:13:12.:13:17.

at noon and we'll bring you the last PMQs before the summer

:13:18.:13:22.

on Wednesday morning from 11:30am. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:23.:13:25.

it's the Sunday Politics, unless

:13:26.:13:28.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS