14/09/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


14/09/2014

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.

:00:37.:00:43.

Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out

:00:44.:00:45.

their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.

:00:46.:00:54.

They released a video late last night, showing a masked man

:00:55.:00:56.

beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.

:00:57.:01:03.

The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.

:01:04.:01:05.

Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.

:01:06.:01:07.

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.

:01:08.:01:10.

As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA

:01:11.:01:12.

President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder

:01:13.:01:16.

Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as

:01:17.:01:24.

he predicts a historic and substantial victory in

:01:25.:01:26.

As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,

:01:27.:01:34.

I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his

:01:35.:01:36.

And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown

:01:37.:01:44.

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask

:01:45.:01:46.

pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.

:01:47.:01:51.

In the north`east and Cumbrha, what will the vote in Scotl`nd mean

:01:52.:01:53.

And a threat to the future of nursery schools is raised

:01:54.:01:58.

step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?

:01:59.:02:13.

Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that

:02:14.:02:16.

Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the

:02:17.:02:19.

The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American

:02:20.:02:23.

journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently

:02:24.:02:25.

beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.

:02:26.:02:29.

The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,

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also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK

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Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed

:02:36.:02:38.

His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he

:02:39.:02:43.

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said

:02:44.:02:50.

his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary

:02:51.:02:53.

Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power

:02:54.:03:02.

to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,

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Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.

:03:06.:03:09.

Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr

:03:10.:03:13.

Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.

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Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who

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have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David

:03:34.:03:40.

Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action

:03:41.:03:42.

Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or

:03:43.:03:55.

any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a

:03:56.:03:59.

will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in

:04:00.:04:02.

that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a

:04:03.:04:09.

collective response to what is a threat to humanity.

:04:10.:04:11.

Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now

:04:12.:04:12.

Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet

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again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options

:04:26.:04:30.

facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I

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think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these

:04:35.:04:40.

hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government

:04:41.:04:43.

policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states

:04:44.:04:47.

are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to

:04:48.:04:53.

make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might

:04:54.:04:58.

be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the

:04:59.:05:01.

past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the

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hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one

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there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the

:05:14.:05:17.

difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.

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Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction

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the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in

:05:30.:05:36.

perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not

:05:37.:05:41.

just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining

:05:42.:05:45.

his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about

:05:46.:05:47.

building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And

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training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the

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UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been

:05:59.:06:09.

arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually

:06:10.:06:13.

conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We

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have not got a clear answer from government and that is something

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where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible

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we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I

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think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to

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a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however

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terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play

:06:47.:06:48.

more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait

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see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would

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like to see would be British and American special forces going in and

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getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is

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very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few

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months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the

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ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of

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kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so

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you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get

:07:25.:07:29.

the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a

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possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly

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challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating

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within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are

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looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,

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thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed

:07:50.:07:51.

to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever

:07:52.:07:55.

lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked

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like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,

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though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO

:08:05.:08:07.

would carry the day. The new consensus is that

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it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of

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the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign

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had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the

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undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of

:08:31.:08:37.

63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move

:08:38.:08:41.

into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as

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the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the

:08:48.:08:50.

average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.

:08:51.:08:54.

There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the

:08:55.:08:59.

first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the

:09:00.:09:03.

other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by

:09:04.:09:13.

Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and

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there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have

:09:21.:09:24.

the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but

:09:25.:09:30.

their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another

:09:31.:09:35.

suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against

:09:36.:09:46.

50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with

:09:47.:09:52.

yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are

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undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling

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booths that could make all the difference.

:10:00.:10:01.

campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.

:10:02.:10:05.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the

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Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You

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sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working

:10:19.:10:20.

people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,

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a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been

:10:24.:10:29.

achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being

:10:30.:10:33.

thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the

:10:34.:10:37.

underlying interests of working people are on working on the

:10:38.:10:40.

relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very

:10:41.:10:44.

messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the

:10:45.:10:47.

children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,

:10:48.:10:53.

and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded

:10:54.:10:56.

that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK

:10:57.:11:00.

context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the

:11:01.:11:07.

opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in

:11:08.:11:11.

taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on

:11:12.:11:16.

companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest

:11:17.:11:21.

of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,

:11:22.:11:27.

country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public

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expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have

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Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The

:11:38.:11:40.

British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex

:11:41.:11:45.

Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.

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And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,

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the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be

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gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working

:12:01.:12:02.

people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in

:12:03.:12:06.

fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,

:12:07.:12:11.

Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely

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if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the

:12:16.:12:22.

way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But

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Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The

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polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the

:12:34.:12:38.

average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip

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and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as

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Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour

:12:47.:12:49.

government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a

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stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.

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That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the

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people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on

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your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my

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feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the

:13:14.:13:17.

house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not

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only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy

:13:22.:13:30.

-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will

:13:31.:13:36.

mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The

:13:37.:13:43.

cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the

:13:44.:13:49.

financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry

:13:50.:13:54.

of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or

:13:55.:14:01.

less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in

:14:02.:14:05.

an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about

:14:06.:14:08.

nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are

:14:09.:14:12.

against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by

:14:13.:14:17.

independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.

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The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The

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danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex

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Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately

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joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --

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involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a

:14:41.:14:46.

peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole

:14:47.:14:50.

that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military

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entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,

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till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the

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grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines

:15:03.:15:09.

and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other

:15:10.:15:14.

hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British

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nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it

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showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely

:15:24.:15:32.

riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to

:15:33.:15:37.

be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises

:15:38.:15:44.

of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for

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the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told

:15:50.:15:53.

us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?

:15:54.:16:05.

I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result

:16:06.:16:12.

This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation

:16:13.:16:20.

of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The

:16:21.:16:27.

country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And

:16:28.:16:43.

the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a

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300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour

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leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer

:16:55.:16:59.

one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this

:17:00.:17:04.

deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it

:17:05.:17:10.

will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,

:17:11.:17:13.

particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and

:17:14.:17:18.

decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of

:17:19.:17:24.

Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just

:17:25.:17:29.

months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of

:17:30.:17:34.

people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a

:17:35.:17:39.

grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which

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history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get

:17:47.:17:51.

out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.

:17:52.:17:57.

Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,

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they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in

:18:06.:18:11.

Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the

:18:12.:18:15.

Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the

:18:16.:18:20.

chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly

:18:21.:18:25.

right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty

:18:26.:18:32.

and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many

:18:33.:18:36.

but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,

:18:37.:18:42.

but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the

:18:43.:18:48.

situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It

:18:49.:18:53.

is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the

:18:54.:18:59.

roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she

:19:00.:19:03.

pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would

:19:04.:19:08.

not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.

:19:09.:19:13.

If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it

:19:14.:19:16.

would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another

:19:17.:19:21.

issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the

:19:22.:19:26.

Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering

:19:27.:19:33.

home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had

:19:34.:19:38.

signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble

:19:39.:19:43.

for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of

:19:44.:19:49.

all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to

:19:50.:19:55.

risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win

:19:56.:20:00.

on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe

:20:01.:20:06.

fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already

:20:07.:20:11.

aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with

:20:12.:20:18.

death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday

:20:19.:20:23.

if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this

:20:24.:20:29.

home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on

:20:30.:20:34.

this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland

:20:35.:20:41.

getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole

:20:42.:20:49.

procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home

:20:50.:20:54.

rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to

:20:55.:21:01.

introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional

:21:02.:21:04.

monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It

:21:05.:21:11.

was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James

:21:12.:21:17.

Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not

:21:18.:21:23.

rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.

:21:24.:21:29.

It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns

:21:30.:21:32.

in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum

:21:33.:21:35.

Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign

:21:36.:21:46.

It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new

:21:47.:21:53.

great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,

:21:54.:21:59.

Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous

:22:00.:22:03.

Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.

:22:04.:22:10.

Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the

:22:11.:22:14.

referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron

:22:15.:22:19.

did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set

:22:20.:22:24.

out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,

:22:25.:22:30.

a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed

:22:31.:22:37.

improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a

:22:38.:22:41.

basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called

:22:42.:22:47.

Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the

:22:48.:22:52.

leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded

:22:53.:22:57.

with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of

:22:58.:23:00.

campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a

:23:01.:23:05.

break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes

:23:06.:23:10.

campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they

:23:11.:23:16.

accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when

:23:17.:23:24.

the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one

:23:25.:23:30.

week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the

:23:31.:23:35.

first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to

:23:36.:23:39.

head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that

:23:40.:23:44.

you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision

:23:45.:23:47.

if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally

:23:48.:23:56.

different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex

:23:57.:24:01.

Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the

:24:02.:24:06.

NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden

:24:07.:24:15.

-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex

:24:16.:24:21.

Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were

:24:22.:24:28.

other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like

:24:29.:24:32.

Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join

:24:33.:24:39.

the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?

:24:40.:24:42.

This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,

:24:43.:24:50.

Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are

:24:51.:24:54.

proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to

:24:55.:25:00.

stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and

:25:01.:25:04.

centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more

:25:05.:25:08.

devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the

:25:09.:25:12.

parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster

:25:13.:25:17.

some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister

:25:18.:25:21.

if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a

:25:22.:25:26.

good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'

:25:27.:25:32.

views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I

:25:33.:25:41.

am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from

:25:42.:25:44.

Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and

:25:45.:25:48.

I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly

:25:49.:25:52.

inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it

:25:53.:25:57.

would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30

:25:58.:26:02.

hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more

:26:03.:26:06.

about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.

:26:07.:26:10.

And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor

:26:11.:26:13.

of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.

:26:14.:26:15.

An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership

:26:16.:26:27.

of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations is

:26:28.:26:33.

that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's

:26:34.:26:43.

prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is

:26:44.:26:47.

not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two

:26:48.:26:54.

years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting

:26:55.:26:58.

for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes

:26:59.:27:04.

on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom

:27:05.:27:09.

because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free

:27:10.:27:13.

prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not

:27:14.:27:18.

in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the

:27:19.:27:23.

price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry

:27:24.:27:27.

about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing

:27:28.:27:35.

stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power

:27:36.:27:44.

generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,

:27:45.:27:49.

natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class

:27:50.:27:54.

universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the

:27:55.:27:58.

world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the

:27:59.:28:02.

revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but

:28:03.:28:06.

it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand

:28:07.:28:10.

still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections

:28:11.:28:14.

of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to

:28:15.:28:22.

keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and

:28:23.:28:27.

you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.

:28:28.:28:33.

That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the

:28:34.:28:37.

most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic

:28:38.:28:45.

stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee

:28:46.:28:48.

employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking

:28:49.:28:54.

about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to

:28:55.:29:00.

continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the

:29:01.:29:04.

minimum survival of the oil is 0 years. Please get your viewers to go

:29:05.:29:15.

onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The

:29:16.:29:27.

West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done

:29:28.:29:32.

because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil

:29:33.:29:38.

because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident

:29:39.:29:47.

and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn

:29:48.:29:53.

his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions

:29:54.:29:58.

and change are not just single event. What will happen here on

:29:59.:30:02.

Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being

:30:03.:30:08.

patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and

:30:09.:30:13.

abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice

:30:14.:30:18.

What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you

:30:19.:30:28.

against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes

:30:29.:30:32.

campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we

:30:33.:30:36.

are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a

:30:37.:30:44.

scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay

:30:45.:30:50.

on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be

:30:51.:30:53.

lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave

:30:54.:31:03.

the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your

:31:04.:31:09.

way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of

:31:10.:31:14.

business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be

:31:15.:31:17.

clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,

:31:18.:31:27.

because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England

:31:28.:31:34.

want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in

:31:35.:31:39.

Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the

:31:40.:31:42.

jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent

:31:43.:31:46.

and investing in social housing the people of England will say, we can

:31:47.:31:50.

do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In

:31:51.:31:55.

wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are

:31:56.:31:58.

fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the

:31:59.:32:03.

socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it

:32:04.:32:10.

work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in

:32:11.:32:14.

Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters

:32:15.:32:18.

in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can

:32:19.:32:22.

reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three

:32:23.:32:26.

Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,

:32:27.:32:31.

austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election he

:32:32.:32:34.

said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed

:32:35.:32:39.

Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see

:32:40.:32:44.

if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last

:32:45.:32:48.

Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The

:32:49.:32:51.

Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in

:32:52.:32:57.

Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do

:32:58.:33:02.

you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish

:33:03.:33:17.

general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you

:33:18.:33:20.

went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won

:33:21.:33:26.

a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why

:33:27.:33:30.

they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has

:33:31.:33:34.

thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and

:33:35.:33:39.

protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP

:33:40.:33:45.

who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the

:33:46.:33:49.

NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale

:33:50.:33:53.

people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public

:33:54.:33:57.

ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George

:33:58.:34:00.

Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish

:34:01.:34:06.

Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right

:34:07.:34:09.

in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,

:34:10.:34:14.

Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent

:34:15.:34:17.

Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an

:34:18.:34:22.

independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir

:34:23.:34:28.

Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the

:34:29.:34:33.

right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist

:34:34.:34:38.

vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence

:34:39.:34:45.

people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who

:34:46.:34:51.

fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.

:34:52.:34:54.

Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who

:34:55.:35:02.

engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I m

:35:03.:35:04.

still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,

:35:05.:35:11.

Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,

:35:12.:35:15.

I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,

:35:16.:35:19.

it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any

:35:20.:35:25.

young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't

:35:26.:35:29.

care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the

:35:30.:35:34.

unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who

:35:35.:35:41.

support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the

:35:42.:35:45.

campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the

:35:46.:35:49.

establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what

:35:50.:35:53.

they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your

:35:54.:35:57.

coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial

:35:58.:36:02.

control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and

:36:03.:36:07.

the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.

:36:08.:36:11.

Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.

:36:12.:36:14.

Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses

:36:15.:36:19.

if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking

:36:20.:36:25.

to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that

:36:26.:36:32.

you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.

:36:33.:36:35.

Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with

:36:36.:36:40.

the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.

:36:41.:36:47.

They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for

:36:48.:36:52.

freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So

:36:53.:36:57.

far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might

:36:58.:37:00.

happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to

:37:01.:37:03.

you later with George Galloway. Hello and the warmest of welcomes

:37:04.:37:22.

from the other side of the border. This weekend,

:37:23.:37:24.

as Scotland decides its futtre, there is a call to devolve lore

:37:25.:37:27.

power to regions of England. In particular,

:37:28.:37:30.

is it time to give the north`east To mull that over,

:37:31.:37:32.

the Liberal Democrat MP Sir Alan Beith, whose Berwick constituency

:37:33.:37:48.

could soon be the northern lost tip And the Durham Labour MP, Roberta

:37:49.:37:51.

Blackman`Woods is also here. Also coming up, nursery schools

:37:52.:37:55.

under threat of closure. A north`east MP tells a deb`te

:37:56.:37:57.

at Westminster they need more Sir Alan Beith,

:37:58.:37:59.

did you ever think your constituency could be at the frontier re`lly

:38:00.:38:04.

of a different country? Yes, because it has had

:38:05.:38:06.

a turbulent past. Berwick's historical memory goes

:38:07.:38:08.

back to the days when it was a different country, not with

:38:09.:38:10.

the same Parliament or monarch. People are so aware of that history

:38:11.:38:13.

but it is a serious issue which does worry people, the thought that there

:38:14.:38:17.

might be different currencids on both sides of the border, which

:38:18.:38:21.

people cross several times ` day. That there might have to be, at some

:38:22.:38:26.

point, a policed border if Scotland The Nationalists behind the Yes

:38:27.:38:29.

campaign clearly believe thdre are answers to those questions that you

:38:30.:38:37.

don't necessarily believe are right. Roberta Blackman`Woods, it sounds

:38:38.:38:41.

like a lot of north`east MPs will be Getting a bit desperate,

:38:42.:38:44.

aren't they? I don't think it's desperathon,

:38:45.:38:49.

it is important we all argud Having been in Scotland yesterday,

:38:50.:38:52.

I am more certain than ever that we are better to stay united rdally

:38:53.:39:00.

for all of our futures. I certainly haven't had any

:39:01.:39:06.

answers on the economic questions. I think there are big,

:39:07.:39:10.

big issues about defence We haven't got anyone here from the

:39:11.:39:13.

Yes campaign We will discuss that more

:39:14.:39:23.

in a moment because events in Scotland are inevitably focusing

:39:24.:39:27.

minds on how we are governed The Deputy Prime Minister Nhck Clegg

:39:28.:39:34.

has called for a wider debate about decentralising power `way

:39:35.:39:39.

from Westminster. There are new demands

:39:40.:39:40.

for the north`east to get some of the powers of Scotland whll be

:39:41.:39:43.

offered in the event of a no vote. Carlisle is known

:39:44.:39:46.

as the great border city. In the centre of town, Scotch Street

:39:47.:39:52.

merges into English Street. Although the Scots once ruldd

:39:53.:39:55.

this city, Carlisle has been The biggest question here is, is it

:39:56.:39:58.

time for Westminster to share some The Westminster crew and thd Oxford

:39:59.:40:06.

elite are leaving us behind. The biggest problem is that

:40:07.:40:18.

everything is centralised to London and all that seems to matter is that

:40:19.:40:21.

London and the South get evdrything He supports

:40:22.:40:25.

the Scottish parliament getting more powers if people vote to st`y

:40:26.:40:32.

in the UK but he says the s`me principle should apply to places

:40:33.:40:35.

like the north`east and Cumbria It should be based around existing

:40:36.:40:40.

structures, cities and counties The powers should look at the

:40:41.:40:44.

tax`raising powers and spending Things that can be devolved down

:40:45.:40:49.

but at the same time, there has to be the ability to raise loc`l taxes

:40:50.:40:57.

to pay for that spending. Martin Fowler lives and works

:40:58.:41:01.

in Carlisle but it is Scotthsh identity and history which form

:41:02.:41:04.

the subject for his illustr`tions. He thinks the debate in Scotland

:41:05.:41:07.

could prompt change in Engl`nd too. It could be very positive,

:41:08.:41:14.

creating space for people in England to discuss the nature

:41:15.:41:18.

of their democracy, their electoral It is first past the post btt is

:41:19.:41:22.

that the best political sittation? Lanarkost Priory near Hadri`n's Wall

:41:23.:41:27.

which was frequently attackdd during the Anglo`Scottish w`rs

:41:28.:41:36.

but today there is more tea and And people here aren't keen to

:41:37.:41:39.

reignite cross`border tensions by pushing for English devolution

:41:40.:41:44.

should Scotland go it alone. You are going to split

:41:45.:41:48.

the whole thing up into counties That is going to happen

:41:49.:41:51.

and you'd probably get on with it and then come b`ck

:41:52.:41:57.

together again in 50 years time I've lived in England for 50 years,

:41:58.:42:01.

I regard myself as British, it says British on my passport

:42:02.:42:05.

and that is what I am. And rising nationalism, whether it

:42:06.:42:09.

is Scottish or English, is `n issue. I really don't want this

:42:10.:42:13.

nationalistic fervour which has More powers for Scotland ard

:42:14.:42:21.

inevitable, whether it is a yes or no vote but as the referdndum

:42:22.:42:29.

campaign comes to an end, the wider debate on English devolution

:42:30.:42:32.

may only just be starting. With me now is Jill Perry

:42:33.:42:34.

from the Green party. The Greens do support indepdndence

:42:35.:42:44.

for Scotland and also believe there is a need for more devolved

:42:45.:42:46.

powers for the north`east. There seems to be frustration that

:42:47.:42:50.

Westminster has too much power That doesn't mean people ard

:42:51.:42:53.

hankering after regional me`nt, I think what people really want and

:42:54.:42:57.

what politicians have absolttely failed to realise is that they want

:42:58.:43:03.

a more sustainable and fair society. That is not what we are getting

:43:04.:43:06.

from Westminster. That is what Scottish peopld want

:43:07.:43:12.

and they are not getting it They have lots of powers already

:43:13.:43:15.

that we don't have and their society They have much better social

:43:16.:43:22.

policies, education policies, Because everything, as the lan said,

:43:23.:43:27.

comes from London. But that's not an argument for

:43:28.:43:37.

for breaking up the UK, it is an argument for a change

:43:38.:43:42.

of policy is that you want to see. But what Scotland gets if it votes

:43:43.:43:50.

yes is a chance to start ag`in and build from the bottom the sort

:43:51.:43:53.

of society that they want to sleep. I am not arguing that the North of

:43:54.:44:02.

England should become indepdndent but we need more powers to build the

:44:03.:44:14.

sort of society that we want to see. We want to see

:44:15.:44:18.

a more equitable society. Will Cumbrians be any better off

:44:19.:44:19.

if there is a regional asselbly Cumbria is always

:44:20.:44:22.

in a difficult position bec`use regionally we are in the north`west

:44:23.:44:25.

and even from the BBC point of view we are in the north`east,

:44:26.:44:28.

but the closer we get to people the Perhaps we should take the whole

:44:29.:44:32.

of the North of England and make that a region, rather than dividing

:44:33.:44:36.

it amongst current boundarids. The Lib Dems were strong advocates

:44:37.:44:40.

of regional government a few years There was a setback for havhng

:44:41.:44:43.

a parliament in this region because people didn't want it at thd time

:44:44.:44:48.

but that does not stop us ddvolving more power to the region and

:44:49.:44:54.

Nick Clegg is spearheading that It is a deal which would be much

:44:55.:44:58.

welcomed by different partids in the north`east who are working together

:44:59.:45:03.

to get powers from Westminster. That development is essenti`l

:45:04.:45:10.

and later people will realise we need more democratic control

:45:11.:45:13.

of the powers that we bring back to Nick Clegg has been setting out more

:45:14.:45:17.

arguments and supporting more proposals to increase that `mount

:45:18.:45:24.

of power we exercise. I could argue

:45:25.:45:30.

about how big devolution powers are but how does somewhere

:45:31.:45:33.

like Newcastle help Northumberland? The region

:45:34.:45:36.

for this purpose includes a number of places and it is an important

:45:37.:45:42.

point, there is a problem about it. Regional infrastructure,

:45:43.:45:45.

if you are not careful, doesn't listen to rural areas and wd have

:45:46.:45:48.

had that experience with thd, for example, with the Labour cotncil in

:45:49.:45:53.

Northumberland putting charges in to get to school and college students

:45:54.:46:00.

between 16 and 18 to school. Problems like that mean we need to

:46:01.:46:05.

devise a system which gives rural areas a proper voice but at least

:46:06.:46:08.

on some areas, the power is coming Boris can make decisions in London

:46:09.:46:11.

we should be able to make hdre. Regional government was Labour's

:46:12.:46:17.

baby in 2004 but now you sedm to Our policy is very clear, to devolve

:46:18.:46:20.

power to local authorities, either singularly or in combination and we

:46:21.:46:30.

have been discussing with the combined authorities, the one that

:46:31.:46:35.

is already in place and the one that we think might be in place

:46:36.:46:38.

in the south of the region to see I think regardless of the vote

:46:39.:46:42.

next week, people want to sde Can combined authority really take

:46:43.:46:49.

on the might of either an independent Scotland or

:46:50.:46:57.

a powerful Scotland? If the parties come together

:46:58.:47:05.

on key issues, such What is the difference betwden

:47:06.:47:08.

that and the regional government We are not creating

:47:09.:47:16.

a new political structure. We are bringing together local

:47:17.:47:23.

authorities that are alreadx I think what people really said no

:47:24.:47:26.

to was the new political structure. They did not say no to having more

:47:27.:47:32.

powers devolved to the area and I think we know that people w`nt to

:47:33.:47:35.

have a much greater say over what Everyone seems to have agredd

:47:36.:47:39.

on that. One thing raised by John Stdvenson

:47:40.:47:44.

was tax, local taxes. We have argued for

:47:45.:47:49.

a long time that we ought to find a way of finding a fair incomd`based

:47:50.:47:53.

tax in the place of council tax It is hard to do but if you devolve

:47:54.:47:57.

power, you should also devolve That has been

:47:58.:48:00.

the problem with Scotland. My constituents say, why have we

:48:01.:48:14.

been giving them so much money, They should be raising monex

:48:15.:48:16.

from taxes of Scottish people. There is a logic about having

:48:17.:48:22.

the ability to raise taxes. Jill Perry, time for localised

:48:23.:48:24.

taxation in your view? Absolutely and this governmdnt

:48:25.:48:28.

and local governments, taxation in the form of money that the county

:48:29.:48:33.

councils can raise has been limited. A lot

:48:34.:48:36.

of people have said that wotld be a good thing because a stratospheric

:48:37.:48:42.

rises in the past two counchl tax. If it is raised under

:48:43.:48:53.

the council tax regime or some other regime, some people will object to

:48:54.:48:59.

paying for it. Usually, it is the rich who don t

:49:00.:49:01.

want to pay but ordinary people want They want a good education system,

:49:02.:49:11.

a good national health systdm, a Those facilities society

:49:12.:49:16.

should be providing for us. Roberta Blackman`Wood, you know it

:49:17.:49:30.

took a long time to get the combined authorities together becausd

:49:31.:49:33.

Newcastle and Sunderland were falling out with each other and

:49:34.:49:38.

Teeside didn't want to be whth the rest of the north`east. That's not

:49:39.:49:41.

very promising for Corporathon, is it? Lots of Labour councillors

:49:42.:49:44.

falling out with each other. I think we really need to encourage

:49:45.:49:58.

the local authorities that do want to work together to do that

:49:59.:50:01.

and Labour also wants to sed much We have the combine authority so

:50:02.:50:05.

let's work with what is there, let's try to be positive and what we want

:50:06.:50:11.

to see is a much fairer funding system for local government because

:50:12.:50:14.

we know that more money is going to It is the poorer areas that have

:50:15.:50:20.

really suffered cuts and we want them to be able to have mord

:50:21.:50:25.

of the central pot to work with We

:50:26.:50:32.

could have a number of Labotr councillors deciding on an `rea like

:50:33.:50:34.

yours which does not vote L`bour. That is the worry,

:50:35.:50:37.

that it could shut out minorities. We need a system that recognises

:50:38.:50:46.

minority interests and regional interests. Everyone agrees that

:50:47.:50:53.

nursery education gives children the best start in life but this week, a

:50:54.:50:59.

County Durham MP accused thd government of allowing a nulber to

:51:00.:51:05.

be put at risk of being shutdown. She says a number of local `uthority

:51:06.:51:09.

nurseries are at risk of closing because they are more expensive to

:51:10.:51:14.

run and nursery attached to schools. Ministers say they cannot stbsidise

:51:15.:51:17.

those at the expense of othdrs. It is a new term at this nursery. These

:51:18.:51:25.

three and four`year`olds will only spend about 12 months here before

:51:26.:51:29.

joining the local primary. What difference can that make? M`ssive.

:51:30.:51:36.

You see how they nurture each other and we learn from them as they learn

:51:37.:51:40.

from us. Achievements of st`te nursery schools are impresshve. 57%

:51:41.:51:51.

are rated as outstanding was any `` as outstanding was only 17% of

:51:52.:51:56.

primary schools have that. Nursery schools don't get any more funding

:51:57.:52:02.

than early years primary cl`sses. Those in charge say that is

:52:03.:52:06.

short`sighted. Within Sunderland there are nine nursery schools doing

:52:07.:52:11.

very well and surviving but not being recognised as needing funding

:52:12.:52:16.

to meet the needs of the chhldren in those nurseries. It is expensive but

:52:17.:52:20.

that is an investment in chhldren's features really, isn't it? Hf we can

:52:21.:52:24.

get it right from the very beginning, then there doesn't need

:52:25.:52:27.

to be as much money spent c`tching up as they get older. But those

:52:28.:52:33.

funding problems have closed areas. `` nursery schools. This wedk, one

:52:34.:52:41.

north`east MP called a Commons debate to ask for extra mondy to

:52:42.:52:46.

stop closures. We look at where they are delivering in affluent `reas and

:52:47.:52:53.

disadvantaged areas and thex are providing equally good outcomes and

:52:54.:52:56.

that is really important for the north`east where we have a high

:52:57.:53:01.

proportion, or a higher proportion of nursery schools and the rest of

:53:02.:53:05.

the country, and disadvantaged children. We have these proven

:53:06.:53:09.

centres of excellence and wd are allowing them to wither on the vine.

:53:10.:53:16.

Whilst the government recognises the quality of nurseries such as this

:53:17.:53:20.

they are not happy to provide extra funding. 49 local authoritids don't

:53:21.:53:31.

have any maintained nursery schools and 43 only have one or two

:53:32.:53:39.

maintained nursery schools. It is not fair that we treat maintained

:53:40.:53:43.

nursery schools differently. New research this week showed that

:53:44.:53:47.

children who get good schooling in their early years combined better

:53:48.:54:02.

results and salaries. I think 9 % of these nursery schools are

:54:03.:54:08.

outstanding. Yet we can't fhnd any money to back them? There is no

:54:09.:54:16.

disagreement that early years education is really important. But

:54:17.:54:20.

in Northumberland, all the state nursery provision is providdd by the

:54:21.:54:23.

local authority through the schools because you are sending children to

:54:24.:54:26.

a school which they will subsequently go to. It helps to

:54:27.:54:32.

integrate them into the school. But the evidence suggests is th`t those

:54:33.:54:37.

nursery schools are outperforming primary schools largely. Thd

:54:38.:54:44.

evidence is that these work. And we haven't got any. If you put a lot of

:54:45.:54:49.

money into a few places, yot can achieve good results but we are

:54:50.:54:53.

trying to ensure that across the country there is adequate ntrsery

:54:54.:54:58.

provision and my experience is that doing it through the local schools

:54:59.:55:00.

is an extremely good way of doing it. Pat Glass admitted this in her

:55:01.:55:10.

debate. Labour's record on this was as patchy as the coalitions. Do you

:55:11.:55:15.

need to change your policy `nd provide extra support for this? Pat

:55:16.:55:21.

has raised a very interesting issue about nursery schools and how they

:55:22.:55:27.

are the centres of excellence and the debate highlighted that. We need

:55:28.:55:32.

to think about how we can spread the expertise that is being devdloped in

:55:33.:55:35.

those schools into other types of provision. I think the government

:55:36.:55:40.

might need to think about how to fund these nursery schools hn a

:55:41.:55:44.

different way so all the local authorities can benefit frol them.

:55:45.:55:50.

To be fair, they will get the people `` the pupil premium. You c`nnot

:55:51.:55:54.

accuse the government of not backing nursery education. I wasn't doing

:55:55.:56:00.

that but I think they are f`lling down on the funding of sure start

:56:01.:56:02.

because of the cuts to local government, meaning that thd

:56:03.:56:10.

excellent five sure start cdntres in my constituency, the local `uthority

:56:11.:56:12.

doesn't know how they will be able to continue funding them. Wd are

:56:13.:56:16.

looking at different models the continuing that education ldvel

:56:17.:56:23.

There are issues of funding what is a good policy. With just fotr days

:56:24.:56:28.

to go, it is no surprise th`t Scotland is on the mind of lost

:56:29.:56:33.

politicians but our part of the world did get a looking at

:56:34.:56:42.

Westminster. There is no big Mac and frids on the

:56:43.:56:46.

menu if Newcastle Council gdt their way. They have rejected plans from

:56:47.:56:55.

McDonald's to open near a school. I asked the big food giant not to

:56:56.:57:00.

appeal. Maple death `` many people did not get help from Redcar Council

:57:01.:57:04.

when they needed it, the vidw of the government when they found they

:57:05.:57:10.

understand by ?1 million from their social fund. Their local MP is

:57:11.:57:16.

concerned. I think the council has bold plans to deal with deprivation

:57:17.:57:23.

in our area but my sense is that far less direct help is reaching those

:57:24.:57:28.

who are most in need. And fhnally the roads minister marked the start

:57:29.:57:36.

of work to improve a stretch of the A1 but according to figures we have

:57:37.:57:41.

seen, it will cost nearly ?800 million to make the road jewel

:57:42.:57:49.

carriageway for the whole of the Northumberland stretch. You will

:57:50.:57:54.

never make that money back economically, will you? We `re never

:57:55.:58:00.

going to do it in one go but I am hoping we will able to do it in

:58:01.:58:05.

sections. Nearly half of thd A1 has been turned into a dual carriageway

:58:06.:58:10.

in the time I have been an LP and no one says it was a waste of loney.

:58:11.:58:13.

They say, when will you get the Western? It is vitally important for

:58:14.:58:19.

work, for Communications, for moving goods. Having bad sections of it

:58:20.:58:23.

sends the wrong message to business for how ready we are to havd new

:58:24.:58:28.

jobs in the area. How confident are you of a timetable to get this

:58:29.:58:32.

completed? I am very confiddnt we will get progress but getting a

:58:33.:58:37.

commitment to the whole thing, with the government close to a gdneral

:58:38.:58:45.

election, that could be difficult. I would very much welcome a thmetable

:58:46.:58:50.

but what I want to see is a real commitment, contracts being met to

:58:51.:58:55.

get some more of the jewel carriageway `` the jewel carriageway

:58:56.:59:05.

that we need. Surely that is better than we had under 13 years of

:59:06.:59:11.

Labour? I think labour invested a lot into the region but we `ccept as

:59:12.:59:18.

a party that we need a much bigger investment in the region and we are

:59:19.:59:24.

getting. Investment in roads, rail, to rejuvenate some of our ptblic

:59:25.:59:32.

areas. The government has to think about how to do that. That does mean

:59:33.:59:39.

that Labour are going to sell the idea to the south that

:59:40.:59:41.

infrastructure does need to move north? Yes, and we need to speak up

:59:42.:59:49.

about that. Thank you all vdry much. There will be more on the A0 on BBC

:59:50.:59:53.

Newcastle tomorrow morning hf you want to tune in. It promises to be a

:59:54.:00:00.

close run thing on Thursday and there will be a special programme

:00:01.:00:04.

starting at 10:35pm if you want to follow the results. I will be in

:00:05.:00:09.

Berwick with a panel of guests including Sal and beat to gdt their

:00:10.:00:12.

thoughts `` London was 150 years ago, otherwise

:00:13.:00:18.

we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.

:00:19.:00:24.

Can the No campaign still pull it off?

:00:25.:00:28.

And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink

:00:29.:00:32.

I'm joined now by John McTernan former adviser to Gordon Brown

:00:33.:00:49.

and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP

:00:50.:00:52.

and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor

:00:53.:00:55.

And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.

:00:56.:01:00.

No fighting has broken out either. Where

:01:01.:01:09.

No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go

:01:10.:01:09.

No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of

:01:10.:01:12.

play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital

:01:13.:01:20.

is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about

:01:21.:01:25.

500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know

:01:26.:01:28.

which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no

:01:29.:01:33.

campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do

:01:34.:01:39.

you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big

:01:40.:01:43.

swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it

:01:44.:01:52.

over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment

:01:53.:01:56.

swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians

:01:57.:02:01.

and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think

:02:02.:02:06.

that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general

:02:07.:02:10.

election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week

:02:11.:02:15.

the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were

:02:16.:02:19.

going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls

:02:20.:02:22.

show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one

:02:23.:02:28.

or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding

:02:29.:02:34.

another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it

:02:35.:02:37.

statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.

:02:38.:02:41.

About a fifth of the electorate That will be a quarter of the

:02:42.:02:45.

turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running

:02:46.:02:49.

very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The

:02:50.:02:55.

postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic

:02:56.:02:58.

that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,

:02:59.:03:04.

the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and

:03:05.:03:08.

always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the

:03:09.:03:14.

decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to

:03:15.:03:18.

18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no

:03:19.:03:21.

campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I

:03:22.:03:28.

think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a

:03:29.:03:36.

20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they

:03:37.:03:40.

will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health

:03:41.:03:45.

warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is

:03:46.:03:48.

unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of

:03:49.:03:53.

yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex

:03:54.:03:59.

Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the

:04:00.:04:03.

momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept

:04:04.:04:10.

Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of

:04:11.:04:13.

economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as

:04:14.:04:15.

scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What

:04:16.:04:20.

does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to

:04:21.:04:26.

focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to

:04:27.:04:31.

the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say

:04:32.:04:33.

it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on

:04:34.:04:38.

the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the

:04:39.:04:41.

economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk

:04:42.:04:47.

is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has

:04:48.:04:50.

to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive

:04:51.:04:55.

home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who

:04:56.:04:59.

want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they

:05:00.:05:02.

want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though

:05:03.:05:07.

the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have

:05:08.:05:11.

failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they

:05:12.:05:14.

say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days

:05:15.:05:18.

of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the

:05:19.:05:21.

media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the

:05:22.:05:28.

final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the

:05:29.:05:32.

Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,

:05:33.:05:36.

but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are

:05:37.:05:39.

picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge

:05:40.:05:42.

number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with

:05:43.:05:48.

politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election if

:05:49.:05:51.

I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of

:05:52.:05:54.

questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier

:05:55.:05:59.

with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all

:06:00.:06:03.

of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as

:06:04.:06:07.

a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown

:06:08.:06:10.

during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex

:06:11.:06:21.

Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he

:06:22.:06:24.

continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under

:06:25.:06:29.

his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health

:06:30.:06:32.

service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe

:06:33.:06:39.

Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as

:06:40.:06:43.

quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people

:06:44.:06:50.

as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.

:06:51.:06:53.

Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish

:06:54.:07:00.

Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him

:07:01.:07:03.

the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He

:07:04.:07:07.

crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a

:07:08.:07:13.

certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent

:07:14.:07:17.

himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who

:07:18.:07:23.

was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red

:07:24.:07:27.

paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the

:07:28.:07:32.

Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both

:07:33.:07:35.

been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than

:07:36.:07:39.

looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't

:07:40.:07:42.

Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?

:07:43.:07:47.

What George and I are agreed on and you have to remember this question

:07:48.:07:52.

of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other

:07:53.:07:54.

things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,

:07:55.:07:59.

Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of

:08:00.:08:05.

Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an

:08:06.:08:08.

independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed

:08:09.:08:13.

miserably, absolutely miserably because they have given up

:08:14.:08:16.

everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just

:08:17.:08:21.

taken on the bank -- mantle of a left of centre party and are picking

:08:22.:08:25.

up support. Gordon and the rest in my opinion, they represent the past.

:08:26.:08:29.

The yes vote on the Yes campaign represents the future. What do you

:08:30.:08:32.

say to that? There is nothing socialist about an SNP that wants to

:08:33.:08:38.

cut business tax by 3% in the pan. There is nothing socialist about an

:08:39.:08:42.

SNP destroying further education so they can give middle-class people

:08:43.:08:47.

free education. The Labour Party is alive and kicking. You can see if it

:08:48.:08:51.

is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to

:08:52.:08:58.

use this word, but they are kind of privatised from the Scottish Labour

:08:59.:09:01.

Party. They have rode their own fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump

:09:02.:09:06.

because official Scottish Labour did not want him leading their campaign.

:09:07.:09:11.

Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off the stage until it became so

:09:12.:09:15.

critical that he had to be brought back. I agree with John, the SNP

:09:16.:09:21.

talks left but acts right. That is before they get state powers. That

:09:22.:09:26.

is what is exciting about the referendum, it's not about the SNP,

:09:27.:09:30.

it's about the people deciding. What we have heard so far in the

:09:31.:09:33.

referendum campaign is that there is a desperate yearning in the

:09:34.:09:37.

electorate for real politics, purposeful politics and for the

:09:38.:09:41.

people to be represented. It is probably to the eternal shame of

:09:42.:09:44.

labour that they gave up that role and other people are now taking it

:09:45.:09:48.

upon themselves. How would you assess the state of the Labour

:09:49.:09:52.

Party? The problem is that it was demolished by the SNP in 2011 and

:09:53.:09:56.

what they should have done since then and in other circumstances is

:09:57.:09:59.

take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and

:10:00.:10:03.

policies and watch out what they stood for. They've been unable to do

:10:04.:10:06.

that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan

:10:07.:10:13.

of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as

:10:14.:10:16.

an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own

:10:17.:10:19.

programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have

:10:20.:10:24.

more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre

:10:25.:10:30.

question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the

:10:31.:10:34.

function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there

:10:35.:10:38.

is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an SNP which attracts votes from the

:10:39.:10:42.

left and that is the one for me Whether that is called the SNP or

:10:43.:10:45.

something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are

:10:46.:10:50.

going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally

:10:51.:10:58.

flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English

:10:59.:11:01.

dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum

:11:02.:11:06.

campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour

:11:07.:11:10.

of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip

:11:11.:11:14.

from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this

:11:15.:11:19.

unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets

:11:20.:11:21.

second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the

:11:22.:11:25.

same as us, they should have it and then there would be commonality so

:11:26.:11:30.

we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies

:11:31.:11:33.

in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear

:11:34.:11:41.

that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge

:11:42.:11:43.

implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly

:11:44.:11:48.

after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge

:11:49.:11:52.

applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that

:11:53.:11:56.

there should be an English boys It would be a step too far for me to

:11:57.:12:02.

agree with him -- English voice I appreciate I might have gone out on

:12:03.:12:06.

a limb. He is the voice of Mars the Balkan from Mars. My own

:12:07.:12:12.

constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things

:12:13.:12:16.

being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about

:12:17.:12:20.

us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the

:12:21.:12:26.

John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet

:12:27.:12:32.

to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in

:12:33.:12:36.

Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon

:12:37.:12:42.

Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has

:12:43.:12:45.

absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,

:12:46.:12:50.

hey, what are you talking about We have never been discussed with that?

:12:51.:12:53.

We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get

:12:54.:12:59.

the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you

:13:00.:13:04.

think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented

:13:05.:13:09.

election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working

:13:10.:13:12.

class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our

:13:13.:13:21.

side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --

:13:22.:13:24.

technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it

:13:25.:13:29.

is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am

:13:30.:13:31.

predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.

:13:32.:13:38.

Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will

:13:39.:13:41.

edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in

:13:42.:13:47.

a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the

:13:48.:13:53.

passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,

:13:54.:14:04.

53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with George. I will leave you

:14:05.:14:07.

to argue about that later. Thank you for being with us on the special

:14:08.:14:09.

Sunday politics from Edinburgh. That's all from us today

:14:10.:14:11.

in Scotland. Don't forget the Daily Politics will

:14:12.:14:13.

have continuing coverage of the referendum campaign all this

:14:14.:14:15.

week on BBC2 at midday. On Thursday night Huw Edwards will

:14:16.:14:18.

be in Glasgow and I will be in London to bring you live coverage

:14:19.:14:21.

of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm on a historic night for Scotland

:14:22.:14:25.

and the rest of the United Kingdom. And I'll be back next Sunday

:14:26.:14:28.

when we're live from the Labour Unless, of course, the referendum

:14:29.:14:31.

result is so tumultuous even the Remember if it's Sunday,

:14:32.:14:39.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:14:40.:14:44.

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