14/09/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.


Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out


their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.


They released a video late last night, showing a masked man


beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.


The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.


Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.


David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.


As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA


President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder


Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as


he predicts a historic and substantial victory in


As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,


I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his


And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown


David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask


pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.


In the north`east and Cumbrha, what will the vote in Scotl`nd mean


And a threat to the future of nursery schools is raised


step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?


Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that


Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the


The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American


journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently


beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.


The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,


also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK


Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed


His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he


David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said


his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary


Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power


to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,


Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.


Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr


Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.


Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who


have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David


Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action


Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or


any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a


will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in


that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a


collective response to what is a threat to humanity.


Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now


Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet


again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options


facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I


think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these


hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government


policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states


are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to


make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might


be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the


past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the


hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one


there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the


difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.


Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction


the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in


perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not


just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining


his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about


building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And


training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the


UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been


arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually


conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We


have not got a clear answer from government and that is something


where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible


we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I


think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to


a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however


terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play


more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait


see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would


like to see would be British and American special forces going in and


getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is


very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few


months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the


ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of


kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so


you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get


the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a


possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly


challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating


within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are


looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,


thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed


to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever


lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked


like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,


though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO


would carry the day. The new consensus is that


it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of


the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign


had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the


undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of


63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move


into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as


the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the


average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.


There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the


first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the


other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by


Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and


there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have


the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but


their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another


suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against


50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with


yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are


undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling


booths that could make all the difference.


campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.


Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the


Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You


sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working


people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,


a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been


achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being


thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the


underlying interests of working people are on working on the


relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very


messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the


children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,


and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded


that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK


context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the


opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in


taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on


companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest


of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,


country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public


expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have


Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The


British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex


Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.


And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,


the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be


gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working


people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in


fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,


Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely


if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the


way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But


Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The


polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the


average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip


and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as


Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour


government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a


stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.


That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the


people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on


your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my


feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the


house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not


only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy


-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will


mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The


cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the


financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry


of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or


less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in


an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about


nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are


against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by


independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.


The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The


danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex


Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately


joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --


involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a


peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole


that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military


entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,


till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the


grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines


and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other


hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British


nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it


showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely


riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to


be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises


of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for


the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told


us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?


I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result


This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation


of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The


country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And


the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a


300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour


leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer


one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this


deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it


will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,


particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and


decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of


Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just


months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of


people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a


grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which


history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get


out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.


Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,


they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in


Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the


Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the


chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly


right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty


and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many


but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,


but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the


situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It


is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the


roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she


pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would


not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.


If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it


would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another


issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the


Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering


home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had


signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble


for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of


all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to


risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win


on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe


fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already


aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with


death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday


if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this


home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on


this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland


getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole


procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home


rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to


introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional


monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It


was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James


Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not


rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.


It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns


in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum


Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign


It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new


great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,


Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous


Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.


Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the


referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron


did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set


out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,


a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed


improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a


basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called


Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the


leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded


with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of


campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a


break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes


campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they


accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when


the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one


week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the


first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to


head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that


you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision


if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally


different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex


Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the


NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden


-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex


Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were


other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like


Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join


the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?


This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,


Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are


proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to


stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and


centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more


devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the


parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster


some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister


if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a


good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'


views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I


am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from


Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and


I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly


inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it


would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30


hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more


about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.


And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor


of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.


An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership


of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations is


that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's


prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is


not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two


years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting


for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes


on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom


because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free


prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not


in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the


price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry


about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing


stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power


generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,


natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class


universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the


world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the


revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but


it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand


still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections


of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to


keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and


you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.


That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the


most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic


stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee


employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking


about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to


continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the


minimum survival of the oil is 0 years. Please get your viewers to go


onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The


West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done


because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil


because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident


and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn


his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions


and change are not just single event. What will happen here on


Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being


patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and


abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice


What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you


against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes


campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we


are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a


scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay


on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be


lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave


the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your


way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of


business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be


clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,


because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England


want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in


Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the


jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent


and investing in social housing the people of England will say, we can


do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In


wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are


fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the


socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it


work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in


Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters


in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can


reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three


Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,


austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election he


said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed


Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see


if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last


Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The


Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in


Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do


you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish


general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you


went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won


a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why


they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has


thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and


protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP


who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the


NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale


people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public


ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George


Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish


Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right


in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,


Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent


Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an


independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir


Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the


right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist


vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence


people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who


fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.


Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who


engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I m


still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,


Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,


I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,


it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any


young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't


care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the


unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who


support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the


campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the


establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what


they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your


coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial


control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and


the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.


Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.


Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses


if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking


to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that


you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.


Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with


the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.


They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for


freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So


far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might


happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to


you later with George Galloway. Hello and the warmest of welcomes


from the other side of the border. This weekend,


as Scotland decides its futtre, there is a call to devolve lore


power to regions of England. In particular,


is it time to give the north`east To mull that over,


the Liberal Democrat MP Sir Alan Beith, whose Berwick constituency


could soon be the northern lost tip And the Durham Labour MP, Roberta


Blackman`Woods is also here. Also coming up, nursery schools


under threat of closure. A north`east MP tells a deb`te


at Westminster they need more Sir Alan Beith,


did you ever think your constituency could be at the frontier re`lly


of a different country? Yes, because it has had


a turbulent past. Berwick's historical memory goes


back to the days when it was a different country, not with


the same Parliament or monarch. People are so aware of that history


but it is a serious issue which does worry people, the thought that there


might be different currencids on both sides of the border, which


people cross several times ` day. That there might have to be, at some


point, a policed border if Scotland The Nationalists behind the Yes


campaign clearly believe thdre are answers to those questions that you


don't necessarily believe are right. Roberta Blackman`Woods, it sounds


like a lot of north`east MPs will be Getting a bit desperate,


aren't they? I don't think it's desperathon,


it is important we all argud Having been in Scotland yesterday,


I am more certain than ever that we are better to stay united rdally


for all of our futures. I certainly haven't had any


answers on the economic questions. I think there are big,


big issues about defence We haven't got anyone here from the


Yes campaign We will discuss that more


in a moment because events in Scotland are inevitably focusing


minds on how we are governed The Deputy Prime Minister Nhck Clegg


has called for a wider debate about decentralising power `way


from Westminster. There are new demands


for the north`east to get some of the powers of Scotland whll be


offered in the event of a no vote. Carlisle is known


as the great border city. In the centre of town, Scotch Street


merges into English Street. Although the Scots once ruldd


this city, Carlisle has been The biggest question here is, is it


time for Westminster to share some The Westminster crew and thd Oxford


elite are leaving us behind. The biggest problem is that


everything is centralised to London and all that seems to matter is that


London and the South get evdrything He supports


the Scottish parliament getting more powers if people vote to st`y


in the UK but he says the s`me principle should apply to places


like the north`east and Cumbria It should be based around existing


structures, cities and counties The powers should look at the


tax`raising powers and spending Things that can be devolved down


but at the same time, there has to be the ability to raise loc`l taxes


to pay for that spending. Martin Fowler lives and works


in Carlisle but it is Scotthsh identity and history which form


the subject for his illustr`tions. He thinks the debate in Scotland


could prompt change in Engl`nd too. It could be very positive,


creating space for people in England to discuss the nature


of their democracy, their electoral It is first past the post btt is


that the best political sittation? Lanarkost Priory near Hadri`n's Wall


which was frequently attackdd during the Anglo`Scottish w`rs


but today there is more tea and And people here aren't keen to


reignite cross`border tensions by pushing for English devolution


should Scotland go it alone. You are going to split


the whole thing up into counties That is going to happen


and you'd probably get on with it and then come b`ck


together again in 50 years time I've lived in England for 50 years,


I regard myself as British, it says British on my passport


and that is what I am. And rising nationalism, whether it


is Scottish or English, is `n issue. I really don't want this


nationalistic fervour which has More powers for Scotland ard


inevitable, whether it is a yes or no vote but as the referdndum


campaign comes to an end, the wider debate on English devolution


may only just be starting. With me now is Jill Perry


from the Green party. The Greens do support indepdndence


for Scotland and also believe there is a need for more devolved


powers for the north`east. There seems to be frustration that


Westminster has too much power That doesn't mean people ard


hankering after regional me`nt, I think what people really want and


what politicians have absolttely failed to realise is that they want


a more sustainable and fair society. That is not what we are getting


from Westminster. That is what Scottish peopld want


and they are not getting it They have lots of powers already


that we don't have and their society They have much better social


policies, education policies, Because everything, as the lan said,


comes from London. But that's not an argument for


for breaking up the UK, it is an argument for a change


of policy is that you want to see. But what Scotland gets if it votes


yes is a chance to start ag`in and build from the bottom the sort


of society that they want to sleep. I am not arguing that the North of


England should become indepdndent but we need more powers to build the


sort of society that we want to see. We want to see


a more equitable society. Will Cumbrians be any better off


if there is a regional asselbly Cumbria is always


in a difficult position bec`use regionally we are in the north`west


and even from the BBC point of view we are in the north`east,


but the closer we get to people the Perhaps we should take the whole


of the North of England and make that a region, rather than dividing


it amongst current boundarids. The Lib Dems were strong advocates


of regional government a few years There was a setback for havhng


a parliament in this region because people didn't want it at thd time


but that does not stop us ddvolving more power to the region and


Nick Clegg is spearheading that It is a deal which would be much


welcomed by different partids in the north`east who are working together


to get powers from Westminster. That development is essenti`l


and later people will realise we need more democratic control


of the powers that we bring back to Nick Clegg has been setting out more


arguments and supporting more proposals to increase that `mount


of power we exercise. I could argue


about how big devolution powers are but how does somewhere


like Newcastle help Northumberland? The region


for this purpose includes a number of places and it is an important


point, there is a problem about it. Regional infrastructure,


if you are not careful, doesn't listen to rural areas and wd have


had that experience with thd, for example, with the Labour cotncil in


Northumberland putting charges in to get to school and college students


between 16 and 18 to school. Problems like that mean we need to


devise a system which gives rural areas a proper voice but at least


on some areas, the power is coming Boris can make decisions in London


we should be able to make hdre. Regional government was Labour's


baby in 2004 but now you sedm to Our policy is very clear, to devolve


power to local authorities, either singularly or in combination and we


have been discussing with the combined authorities, the one that


is already in place and the one that we think might be in place


in the south of the region to see I think regardless of the vote


next week, people want to sde Can combined authority really take


on the might of either an independent Scotland or


a powerful Scotland? If the parties come together


on key issues, such What is the difference betwden


that and the regional government We are not creating


a new political structure. We are bringing together local


authorities that are alreadx I think what people really said no


to was the new political structure. They did not say no to having more


powers devolved to the area and I think we know that people w`nt to


have a much greater say over what Everyone seems to have agredd


on that. One thing raised by John Stdvenson


was tax, local taxes. We have argued for


a long time that we ought to find a way of finding a fair incomd`based


tax in the place of council tax It is hard to do but if you devolve


power, you should also devolve That has been


the problem with Scotland. My constituents say, why have we


been giving them so much money, They should be raising monex


from taxes of Scottish people. There is a logic about having


the ability to raise taxes. Jill Perry, time for localised


taxation in your view? Absolutely and this governmdnt


and local governments, taxation in the form of money that the county


councils can raise has been limited. A lot


of people have said that wotld be a good thing because a stratospheric


rises in the past two counchl tax. If it is raised under


the council tax regime or some other regime, some people will object to


paying for it. Usually, it is the rich who don t


want to pay but ordinary people want They want a good education system,


a good national health systdm, a Those facilities society


should be providing for us. Roberta Blackman`Wood, you know it


took a long time to get the combined authorities together becausd


Newcastle and Sunderland were falling out with each other and


Teeside didn't want to be whth the rest of the north`east. That's not


very promising for Corporathon, is it? Lots of Labour councillors


falling out with each other. I think we really need to encourage


the local authorities that do want to work together to do that


and Labour also wants to sed much We have the combine authority so


let's work with what is there, let's try to be positive and what we want


to see is a much fairer funding system for local government because


we know that more money is going to It is the poorer areas that have


really suffered cuts and we want them to be able to have mord


of the central pot to work with We


could have a number of Labotr councillors deciding on an `rea like


yours which does not vote L`bour. That is the worry,


that it could shut out minorities. We need a system that recognises


minority interests and regional interests. Everyone agrees that


nursery education gives children the best start in life but this week, a


County Durham MP accused thd government of allowing a nulber to


be put at risk of being shutdown. She says a number of local `uthority


nurseries are at risk of closing because they are more expensive to


run and nursery attached to schools. Ministers say they cannot stbsidise


those at the expense of othdrs. It is a new term at this nursery. These


three and four`year`olds will only spend about 12 months here before


joining the local primary. What difference can that make? M`ssive.


You see how they nurture each other and we learn from them as they learn


from us. Achievements of st`te nursery schools are impresshve. 57%


are rated as outstanding was any `` as outstanding was only 17% of


primary schools have that. Nursery schools don't get any more funding


than early years primary cl`sses. Those in charge say that is


short`sighted. Within Sunderland there are nine nursery schools doing


very well and surviving but not being recognised as needing funding


to meet the needs of the chhldren in those nurseries. It is expensive but


that is an investment in chhldren's features really, isn't it? Hf we can


get it right from the very beginning, then there doesn't need


to be as much money spent c`tching up as they get older. But those


funding problems have closed areas. `` nursery schools. This wedk, one


north`east MP called a Commons debate to ask for extra mondy to


stop closures. We look at where they are delivering in affluent `reas and


disadvantaged areas and thex are providing equally good outcomes and


that is really important for the north`east where we have a high


proportion, or a higher proportion of nursery schools and the rest of


the country, and disadvantaged children. We have these proven


centres of excellence and wd are allowing them to wither on the vine.


Whilst the government recognises the quality of nurseries such as this


they are not happy to provide extra funding. 49 local authoritids don't


have any maintained nursery schools and 43 only have one or two


maintained nursery schools. It is not fair that we treat maintained


nursery schools differently. New research this week showed that


children who get good schooling in their early years combined better


results and salaries. I think 9 % of these nursery schools are


outstanding. Yet we can't fhnd any money to back them? There is no


disagreement that early years education is really important. But


in Northumberland, all the state nursery provision is providdd by the


local authority through the schools because you are sending children to


a school which they will subsequently go to. It helps to


integrate them into the school. But the evidence suggests is th`t those


nursery schools are outperforming primary schools largely. Thd


evidence is that these work. And we haven't got any. If you put a lot of


money into a few places, yot can achieve good results but we are


trying to ensure that across the country there is adequate ntrsery


provision and my experience is that doing it through the local schools


is an extremely good way of doing it. Pat Glass admitted this in her


debate. Labour's record on this was as patchy as the coalitions. Do you


need to change your policy `nd provide extra support for this? Pat


has raised a very interesting issue about nursery schools and how they


are the centres of excellence and the debate highlighted that. We need


to think about how we can spread the expertise that is being devdloped in


those schools into other types of provision. I think the government


might need to think about how to fund these nursery schools hn a


different way so all the local authorities can benefit frol them.


To be fair, they will get the people `` the pupil premium. You c`nnot


accuse the government of not backing nursery education. I wasn't doing


that but I think they are f`lling down on the funding of sure start


because of the cuts to local government, meaning that thd


excellent five sure start cdntres in my constituency, the local `uthority


doesn't know how they will be able to continue funding them. Wd are


looking at different models the continuing that education ldvel


There are issues of funding what is a good policy. With just fotr days


to go, it is no surprise th`t Scotland is on the mind of lost


politicians but our part of the world did get a looking at


Westminster. There is no big Mac and frids on the


menu if Newcastle Council gdt their way. They have rejected plans from


McDonald's to open near a school. I asked the big food giant not to


appeal. Maple death `` many people did not get help from Redcar Council


when they needed it, the vidw of the government when they found they


understand by ?1 million from their social fund. Their local MP is


concerned. I think the council has bold plans to deal with deprivation


in our area but my sense is that far less direct help is reaching those


who are most in need. And fhnally the roads minister marked the start


of work to improve a stretch of the A1 but according to figures we have


seen, it will cost nearly ?800 million to make the road jewel


carriageway for the whole of the Northumberland stretch. You will


never make that money back economically, will you? We `re never


going to do it in one go but I am hoping we will able to do it in


sections. Nearly half of thd A1 has been turned into a dual carriageway


in the time I have been an LP and no one says it was a waste of loney.


They say, when will you get the Western? It is vitally important for


work, for Communications, for moving goods. Having bad sections of it


sends the wrong message to business for how ready we are to havd new


jobs in the area. How confident are you of a timetable to get this


completed? I am very confiddnt we will get progress but getting a


commitment to the whole thing, with the government close to a gdneral


election, that could be difficult. I would very much welcome a thmetable


but what I want to see is a real commitment, contracts being met to


get some more of the jewel carriageway `` the jewel carriageway


that we need. Surely that is better than we had under 13 years of


Labour? I think labour invested a lot into the region but we `ccept as


a party that we need a much bigger investment in the region and we are


getting. Investment in roads, rail, to rejuvenate some of our ptblic


areas. The government has to think about how to do that. That does mean


that Labour are going to sell the idea to the south that


infrastructure does need to move north? Yes, and we need to speak up


about that. Thank you all vdry much. There will be more on the A0 on BBC


Newcastle tomorrow morning hf you want to tune in. It promises to be a


close run thing on Thursday and there will be a special programme


starting at 10:35pm if you want to follow the results. I will be in


Berwick with a panel of guests including Sal and beat to gdt their


thoughts `` London was 150 years ago, otherwise


we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.


Can the No campaign still pull it off?


And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink


I'm joined now by John McTernan former adviser to Gordon Brown


and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP


and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor


And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.


No fighting has broken out either. Where


No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go


No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of


play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital


is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about


500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know


which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no


campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do


you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big


swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it


over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment


swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians


and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think


that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general


election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week


the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were


going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls


show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one


or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding


another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it


statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.


About a fifth of the electorate That will be a quarter of the


turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running


very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The


postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic


that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,


the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and


always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the


decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to


18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no


campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I


think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a


20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they


will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health


warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is


unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of


yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex


Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the


momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept


Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of


economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as


scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What


does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to


focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to


the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say


it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on


the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the


economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk


is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has


to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive


home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who


want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they


want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though


the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have


failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they


say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days


of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the


media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the


final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the


Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,


but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are


picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge


number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with


politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election if


I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of


questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier


with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all


of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as


a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown


during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex


Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he


continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under


his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health


service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe


Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as


quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people


as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.


Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish


Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him


the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He


crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a


certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent


himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who


was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red


paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the


Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both


been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than


looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't


Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?


What George and I are agreed on and you have to remember this question


of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other


things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,


Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of


Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an


independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed


miserably, absolutely miserably because they have given up


everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just


taken on the bank -- mantle of a left of centre party and are picking


up support. Gordon and the rest in my opinion, they represent the past.


The yes vote on the Yes campaign represents the future. What do you


say to that? There is nothing socialist about an SNP that wants to


cut business tax by 3% in the pan. There is nothing socialist about an


SNP destroying further education so they can give middle-class people


free education. The Labour Party is alive and kicking. You can see if it


is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to


use this word, but they are kind of privatised from the Scottish Labour


Party. They have rode their own fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump


because official Scottish Labour did not want him leading their campaign.


Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off the stage until it became so


critical that he had to be brought back. I agree with John, the SNP


talks left but acts right. That is before they get state powers. That


is what is exciting about the referendum, it's not about the SNP,


it's about the people deciding. What we have heard so far in the


referendum campaign is that there is a desperate yearning in the


electorate for real politics, purposeful politics and for the


people to be represented. It is probably to the eternal shame of


labour that they gave up that role and other people are now taking it


upon themselves. How would you assess the state of the Labour


Party? The problem is that it was demolished by the SNP in 2011 and


what they should have done since then and in other circumstances is


take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and


policies and watch out what they stood for. They've been unable to do


that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan


of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as


an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own


programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have


more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre


question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the


function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there


is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an SNP which attracts votes from the


left and that is the one for me Whether that is called the SNP or


something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are


going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally


flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English


dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum


campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour


of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip


from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this


unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets


second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the


same as us, they should have it and then there would be commonality so


we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies


in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear


that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge


implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly


after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge


applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that


there should be an English boys It would be a step too far for me to


agree with him -- English voice I appreciate I might have gone out on


a limb. He is the voice of Mars the Balkan from Mars. My own


constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things


being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about


us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the


John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet


to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in


Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon


Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has


absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,


hey, what are you talking about We have never been discussed with that?


We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get


the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you


think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented


election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working


class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our


side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --


technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it


is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am


predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.


Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will


edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in


a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the


passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,


53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with George. I will leave you


to argue about that later. Thank you for being with us on the special


Sunday politics from Edinburgh. That's all from us today


in Scotland. Don't forget the Daily Politics will


have continuing coverage of the referendum campaign all this


week on BBC2 at midday. On Thursday night Huw Edwards will


be in Glasgow and I will be in London to bring you live coverage


of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm on a historic night for Scotland


and the rest of the United Kingdom. And I'll be back next Sunday


when we're live from the Labour Unless, of course, the referendum


result is so tumultuous even the Remember if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics.


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