23/10/2016 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


23/10/2016

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by former Ukip deputy leader Paul Nuttall, international development minister Rory Stewart and shadow defence secretary Nia Griffith.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 23/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

There's another candidate in the race to become Ukip's next

:00:36.:00:41.

leader: Suzanne Evans, the party's former deputy chairman,

:00:42.:00:43.

This man might have something to say about that.

:00:44.:00:50.

Paul Nuttal was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years.

:00:51.:00:53.

So is he now ready to throw his hat in the ring?

:00:54.:00:56.

The battle for Mosul: the Iraqi army and its allies advane

:00:57.:01:01.

on the country's second city which has been in the hands of

:01:02.:01:04.

In the North East and Cumbrha.. from this key clash?

:01:05.:01:12.

Would thousands of pounds persuade you to back fracking near your home?

:01:13.:01:16.

And fears for our A Es and maternity units,

:01:17.:01:19.

as health managers look for big savings.

:01:20.:01:20.

one of the richest cities in the world. Should all private landlords

:01:21.:01:23.

be licensed to help tackle the squalor?

:01:24.:01:28.

And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

:01:29.:01:32.

panel in the business: Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn -

:01:33.:01:35.

The last leader was in the job a mere 18 days before she decided

:01:36.:01:44.

The favourite to succeed her then quit the party after a now infamous

:01:45.:01:50.

Ukip's biggest donor says the party is at "breaking point".

:01:51.:01:55.

This morning, the former Deputy Chairman, Suzanne Evans,

:01:56.:02:02.

announced that she would be running for the leadership.

:02:03.:02:04.

I've thought long and hard about this leadership bid,

:02:05.:02:09.

and one of the reasons I've perhaps delayed announcing it is

:02:10.:02:12.

because I wanted to be absolutely sure that I had the support

:02:13.:02:15.

And I can confirm that I have more than enough signatures

:02:16.:02:19.

on the nomination form already to be able to go forward.

:02:20.:02:22.

Let's not forget that 3,000 people signed a petition in support of me

:02:23.:02:25.

I know head office was besieged with letters in support.

:02:26.:02:31.

I would not be doing this if I didn't have the backing

:02:32.:02:34.

of our members, because our members are the most important

:02:35.:02:37.

Well, Paul Nuttall was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years

:02:38.:02:45.

and plenty of people saw him as a leader-in-waiting.

:02:46.:02:48.

Let's ask the man himself - Paul Nuttall joins me now.

:02:49.:02:57.

Yes. I've made the decision that I'm going to put my name forward to be

:02:58.:03:04.

the next leader of Ukip. I have huge support across the country, not only

:03:05.:03:09.

amongst people at the top of the party in Westminster and with the

:03:10.:03:13.

MEPs, but also the grassroots. I want to be the unity candidate. Ukip

:03:14.:03:18.

needs to come together. I'm not going to gild the lily. Ukip is

:03:19.:03:22.

looking over a political cliff at the moment. It will either step four

:03:23.:03:34.

step back, and I want to tell us to step backwards. You say it faces an

:03:35.:03:36.

ex-distension or threat, which means it's possible it has no future at

:03:37.:03:39.

all. Students of political history know that political parties take a

:03:40.:03:45.

long time to get going. They can disappear pretty quickly. Ukip is

:03:46.:03:50.

facing an existential crisis. What happened over the summer has put us

:03:51.:03:55.

on a... We could be on a spiral that we can't get off. But I believe I am

:03:56.:04:00.

the man to bring the factions together, to create unity within the

:04:01.:04:03.

party, and to build on the structure and get us ready for the common

:04:04.:04:08.

challenges. Why didn't you stand last time? Because I have spent the

:04:09.:04:12.

last four or five years of my life travelling around the country. I

:04:13.:04:17.

have done more Ukip meetings than anybody else, spending a lot of time

:04:18.:04:22.

away from home. With Brexit, I felt that my job and Nigel's job was done

:04:23.:04:27.

and we could hand over to the next generation. That doesn't seem to be

:04:28.:04:31.

the case, and maybe it's time for someone who is an old hand. I'm very

:04:32.:04:36.

experienced and I know the party inside out. Maybe it's time to step

:04:37.:04:41.

in and bring the party together. You told the Liverpool Echo on the night

:04:42.:04:48.

of July that you didn't wish to take on Nigel Farage, you didn't want

:04:49.:04:51.

that to happen to your family and friends. What has changed? The party

:04:52.:04:59.

is facing an existential crisis, and is facing an existential crisis and

:05:00.:05:03.

I want to make sure that Ukip is on the pitch to keep the ball into the

:05:04.:05:09.

open net we have in politics. We have a Conservative Party who is

:05:10.:05:15.

moving toward Brexit, but we have to be there too. Why would you be

:05:16.:05:20.

better than Suzanne Evans? Suzanne would be an excellent candidate I

:05:21.:05:26.

thought the 2015 manifesto was the best out of all the political

:05:27.:05:29.

parties. I would be the best candidate because of my experience.

:05:30.:05:33.

I am not part of any faction within the party. Is she? I get on well

:05:34.:05:39.

with everybody, and I believe I could be the man to bring the party

:05:40.:05:45.

together. Do you get on with Iain Banks, -- Aaron Banks, who is

:05:46.:05:50.

supporting one of your rivals? Yes, I get on well with him. He is able

:05:51.:05:55.

to choose whoever he wants to be the next leader of the party. After

:05:56.:06:00.

November 28, the leadership election, we all say, the past the

:06:01.:06:04.

past. It becomes Daisy row for the new leader. We forget all that has

:06:05.:06:13.

before and move on. You won the referendum. Mrs May is adopting some

:06:14.:06:16.

of your policies, like grammar schools. What is the point of Ukip

:06:17.:06:22.

these days? Twofold. We don't have Brexit. Mrs May said she would not

:06:23.:06:26.

invoke Article 50 until the end of March, and we don't know if that

:06:27.:06:31.

will happen. We need to ensure a strong Ukip to make sure that Brexit

:06:32.:06:37.

really does mean Brexit. We have a huge opportunity in working class

:06:38.:06:41.

communities where the Labour Party no longer represents them. I believe

:06:42.:06:45.

Ukip can become the voice of working people. If you were the leader,

:06:46.:06:49.

would Ukip be a bigger threat to Labour in the north or the Tories in

:06:50.:06:54.

the South? You save Labour in the north, and people often to make that

:06:55.:06:59.

mistake. There's working class communities right across the country

:07:00.:07:03.

is. There are working-class communities in Bristol just

:07:04.:07:15.

as in Newcastle. We are second in a number of northern seats, and

:07:16.:07:19.

southern seats as well, and I believe the party can move into

:07:20.:07:22.

these communities. It can only do so if Ukip is on the pitch, and I

:07:23.:07:25.

intend to make sure that's the case. I don't think we have portrayed a

:07:26.:07:30.

good image over the summer. Is that called British understatement? A

:07:31.:07:37.

bit. It is dysfunctional. We have to move on beyond Nigel Farage. We have

:07:38.:07:42.

to build a strong national Executive Committee. We need to ensure our

:07:43.:07:47.

branches are ready for the fight and concentrate on local elections. I've

:07:48.:07:51.

got the experience. I'm now throwing my hat into the ring, and I'm the

:07:52.:07:57.

only person who can keep Ukip in the game. What role would you give Nigel

:07:58.:08:02.

Farage, if any? I will be the candidate of compromise. I would see

:08:03.:08:06.

what Nigel wanted to do. Would you keep in the leader of the freedom

:08:07.:08:10.

and democracy group in the European Parliament? There would have to be

:08:11.:08:14.

compromise on both sides, and we would need to talk about it. I don't

:08:15.:08:21.

know what Nigel wants to do. Do you think his support, his association

:08:22.:08:25.

with Donald Trump, helps Ukip win female votes in this country?

:08:26.:08:30.

Personally, I would not have gone out and campaigned or said anything

:08:31.:08:34.

about Donald Trump, but I don't think Ukip has come out and backed

:08:35.:08:40.

Donald Trump 100%. Personally, I wouldn't have even spoken about the

:08:41.:08:44.

American election, because I think the two candidates are quite

:08:45.:08:50.

appalling. Some up for us. If you win, what would be the hallmark of

:08:51.:08:54.

your Ukip leadership? The first couple of months would be ensuring

:08:55.:09:00.

that Ukip unifies. Saying no to factions, bringing people together.

:09:01.:09:06.

Suzanne Evans, Nigel Farage, all of the MEPs, and ensuring that Ukip can

:09:07.:09:11.

move forward. If we don't unify, Ukip will not be around for much

:09:12.:09:15.

longer. Thanks for being with us this morning.

:09:16.:09:17.

We won't have to wait too long to find out who Ukip's

:09:18.:09:20.

new leader will be - the winner will be announced

:09:21.:09:22.

Who would be the best leader for Ukip? I think the difference between

:09:23.:09:32.

the field a few weeks ago and today is that this field is a lot

:09:33.:09:36.

stronger. Whether it's Paul or Suzanne, I think... It is hard to

:09:37.:09:43.

say, with Aaron Banks and apparently Nigel Farage hacking another

:09:44.:09:53.

candidate, Raheem, but I want Ukip to be a strong force in British

:09:54.:10:03.

politics. I think the fact there is a stronger field now is good news

:10:04.:10:09.

for Ukip. Is it a Labour's worst nightmare in the north of England?

:10:10.:10:16.

It is. I think the personality difference and presentational

:10:17.:10:19.

difference is interesting. Suzanne Evans is going for the Conservative

:10:20.:10:23.

county vote. There's a lot to be taken there by Ukip. He would

:10:24.:10:27.

probably be more appealing to the Labour vote. It is interesting. At

:10:28.:10:34.

the moment, pollsters say that the Ukip vote splits pretty easily

:10:35.:10:47.

between Labour and Tory. But things always collapse. When they have made

:10:48.:10:53.

inroads into Tower Hamlets and Barking, they collapse, because they

:10:54.:10:57.

fight amongst each other so much. But not always with fists! Does Ukip

:10:58.:11:08.

have a future? And who would best secure that future? It does for at

:11:09.:11:14.

least two years, until we Brexit. We have to believe that that will

:11:15.:11:20.

happen. That was an impressive pitch there from Paul, certainly as the

:11:21.:11:23.

unity candidate, after the car crash we have seen on TV screens this

:11:24.:11:28.

morning. But it doesn't go beyond May 20 19. What then? There is no

:11:29.:11:33.

point being called the United Kingdom Independence party any

:11:34.:11:39.

longer. What will happen after May 2019? If you want to hoover up votes

:11:40.:11:44.

of the back of Brexit, you need to start looking further ahead than two

:11:45.:11:49.

years. The person who wins that leadership contest is the person who

:11:50.:11:53.

will sum that up the best. We shall see.

:11:54.:11:56.

In June 2014, the group which calls itself the Islamic State in Iraq

:11:57.:11:59.

and the Levant captured Iraq's second city, Mosul.

:12:00.:12:01.

Later that month the group announced it was establishing a 'caliphate',

:12:02.:12:03.

or an Islamic state, on the territories it

:12:04.:12:05.

This week 30,000 Iraqi troops, aided by Iranian-backed Shia fighters,

:12:06.:12:15.

Kurdish Peshmerga and Western air support, began the assault

:12:16.:12:20.

Then they spot a truck bomb from so-called Islamic State.

:12:21.:12:37.

They destroy it before it destroys them.

:12:38.:12:42.

These are the first steps in the battle for Mosul,

:12:43.:12:45.

the Northern Iraqi city IS has made its stronghold since 2014.

:12:46.:12:50.

Controlling the city of around 2 million people means

:12:51.:12:55.

that they established governance, they establish a territorial base.

:12:56.:12:59.

This is what has obsessed everyone, because with a territorial base

:13:00.:13:02.

you are capable of doing more than if you are simply an insurgency

:13:03.:13:06.

movement in the fabric of another society.

:13:07.:13:11.

It's being billed as the biggest military operation in Iraq

:13:12.:13:15.

since the war in 2003, the biggest moment in the international effort

:13:16.:13:19.

Here is how the various forces are approaching the city.

:13:20.:13:24.

Heading to Mosul from the south, the elite troops of the Iraqi army.

:13:25.:13:29.

Known as the Golden division, trained and accompanied

:13:30.:13:31.

From the North, a force made up of Kurds, known as the Peshmerga,

:13:32.:13:38.

Also from the South, a militia made up of Shia fighters

:13:39.:13:43.

who have been accused of human rights abuses.

:13:44.:13:46.

British planes have bombed outlying villages, reportedly guided

:13:47.:13:49.

in by British personnel on the ground.

:13:50.:13:57.

To the North West, a corridor has been left for some

:13:58.:13:59.

of the 3000 plus IS fighters, in theory an escape route

:14:00.:14:02.

which could limit the bloodshed when fighting starts in the city.

:14:03.:14:05.

We've had 4-5 days of battle and it's taking place

:14:06.:14:07.

in the outlying villages and there have been some

:14:08.:14:10.

successes and some failures, but the momentum is building.

:14:11.:14:13.

And the real question will be when the attackers get

:14:14.:14:16.

towards the city itself, how strong are the defences?

:14:17.:14:20.

It will crack but it might crack within 48 hours or 2-3 weeks.

:14:21.:14:27.

IS has fought back, on Friday they attack sites

:14:28.:14:31.

in the city of Kirkuk, including a power station.

:14:32.:14:34.

The United Nations believes hundreds of thousands of families

:14:35.:14:36.

have been rounded up as potential human shields.

:14:37.:14:39.

The battle could be bloody, but what about when it's over?

:14:40.:14:43.

The Shia militias, the Iraqi army, the Peshmerga guerrillas,

:14:44.:14:46.

some of the Turkish elements, they all want a share of the action.

:14:47.:14:49.

They are in Mosul, not for altruistic reasons.

:14:50.:14:53.

They are there because they want to be part of whatever happens next.

:14:54.:14:56.

The biggest issue is how the Sunni majority in Mosul reacts to the Shia

:14:57.:15:01.

militias which have helped to liberate them.

:15:02.:15:05.

ARCHIVE FOOTAGE: When Sir Francis Humphrey went to Mosul

:15:06.:15:07.

If it all seems like something from the archive, when the Middle

:15:08.:15:11.

East went up in flames and was then carved up,

:15:12.:15:13.

it is because that is what is happening in Iraq right now.

:15:14.:15:17.

National identity has been cut across by other identities such

:15:18.:15:22.

And that means that putting together a so-called nation state again

:15:23.:15:32.

Almost certainly there will be a new form of Kurdish state,

:15:33.:15:38.

almost certainly in northern Iraq at the end of this crisis,

:15:39.:15:41.

and what is happening in Mosul is a microcosm of what is happening

:15:42.:15:44.

elsewhere across the Levant which is that it is melting down.

:15:45.:15:48.

Big questions, questions that come after the battle.

:15:49.:15:51.

The coalition forces are advancing but this is just the beginning.

:15:52.:15:53.

I'm joined now by the International Development Minister Rory Stewart.

:15:54.:16:03.

In a former life he was the coalition Deputy-Governor of two

:16:04.:16:05.

provinces in Southern Iraq following the Iraq intervention of 2003.

:16:06.:16:13.

Is there any doubt that at some stage Mosul will fall to the forces

:16:14.:16:24.

of Iraq and its allies? The first thing is that war is very uncertain

:16:25.:16:33.

and there are cliches about it being the graveyard of predictions and we

:16:34.:16:36.

don't want to make confident predictions but the basic structure

:16:37.:16:41.

is that there are 30,000 Iraqi forces outside and only a few

:16:42.:16:51.

thousand Daesh fighters inside and I would say it is overwhelmingly

:16:52.:16:53.

likely that the batter will one STUDIO: -- the battle the won by the

:16:54.:17:01.

Iraqi forces. June 2014 was a great success, they

:17:02.:17:09.

took a city of over in people and they created what they tried to

:17:10.:17:15.

create a million state of 7 million people, stretching across the Iraqi

:17:16.:17:17.

Syrian border, but since then they have lost territory quite rapidly.

:17:18.:17:23.

Now they are losing the outskirts of Mosul, and that is a fundamental

:17:24.:17:27.

blow. Islamic State is all about territory and holding state, that is

:17:28.:17:30.

what makes it different from Al-Qaeda. If they lose Mosul that

:17:31.:17:37.

will be a cynic -- significant blow to their credibility. Hillary

:17:38.:17:42.

Clinton said on Wednesday's presidential debate that when Iraqi

:17:43.:17:45.

forces with their allies including the United Kingdom gain control of

:17:46.:17:49.

Mosul they should continue to press into Syria to take back Raqqa which

:17:50.:17:56.

is the de facto capital of the caliphate, what is left of it, do we

:17:57.:18:01.

want Iraqi forces to pursue IS into Syria? Very important question.

:18:02.:18:09.

Delayed in Raqqa needs to come from people on the Syrian side of the

:18:10.:18:11.

border and that is an important principle -- the lead. In the end of

:18:12.:18:17.

that enemy, Islamic State, is a common enemy for odd members of the

:18:18.:18:22.

coalition including the Iraqi government. -- all members. There is

:18:23.:18:29.

likely to be a humanitarian crisis especially if it ends up with street

:18:30.:18:33.

to street fighting and IS are difficult to dislodge what are we

:18:34.:18:38.

doing about that? We are doing very detailed scenario planning. It is

:18:39.:18:43.

very uncertain what the scenario will be but much investment has gone

:18:44.:18:47.

into creating a network of camps, refugees STUDIO: Refugee camps

:18:48.:18:57.

around cash refugee camps, and that is where money, British money, ?40

:18:58.:19:03.

million has gone recently into supporting that, especially in terms

:19:04.:19:07.

of medical support to people. The United nation's emergency response

:19:08.:19:14.

budget is ?196 million but only one third funded which sounds like we

:19:15.:19:17.

are putting up a big chunk of what is already being funded. Why is

:19:18.:19:22.

that? The international committee can't say they haven't seen this

:19:23.:19:25.

assault coming, and the humanitarian fallout they may see from it. You

:19:26.:19:32.

are absolutely right. We have seen it coming and we have been planning

:19:33.:19:35.

since debris and we have put in about ?167 million into this --

:19:36.:19:41.

planning since February. There has been a change in the nature of the

:19:42.:19:45.

appeal, and if there is a lag in the accounting of it, but the money we

:19:46.:19:48.

need at this stage is in place and we do have the support structure in

:19:49.:19:53.

place for those refugees. You are right the United Nations is

:19:54.:19:56.

continuing with its appeal and is asking for more money at the moment.

:19:57.:20:00.

The converse magazine wrote this week that preparations for a big

:20:01.:20:04.

exodus of people leaving the city have been made -- Economist

:20:05.:20:10.

magazine. But confidence is not high in the preparations, is that a

:20:11.:20:15.

unfair conclusion? If you can imagine the different scenarios, it

:20:16.:20:18.

could be a few thousand and it could be a few hundred thousand coming out

:20:19.:20:21.

of the city through a front line where the war is going on, that is

:20:22.:20:27.

very difficult. You have to screen those people and disarm them, and

:20:28.:20:30.

keep families together, and transport them and you have to bring

:20:31.:20:34.

them into the refugee camps. The people working on this have been

:20:35.:20:38.

working on this for long time, we have mapped the different routes we

:20:39.:20:42.

have good camp infrastructure in place and we have people who have

:20:43.:20:48.

worked in south to dam and other areas who are putting their

:20:49.:20:52.

structures in place -- South Sudan. It is never easy but I think we have

:20:53.:20:55.

done everything we can in the preparation for this. What is the

:20:56.:21:00.

British role in what will probably be an even bigger issue, assuming

:21:01.:21:06.

that Mosul is liberated and retaken, the humanitarian crisis is dealt

:21:07.:21:11.

with, what role will we play in the rebuilding of Mosul? That will be

:21:12.:21:17.

crucial to the future of Iraq, the second-biggest city and it will need

:21:18.:21:23.

to be rebuilt. It will need to be rebuilt as a community as well as

:21:24.:21:28.

bricks and mortar. And eight Sunni community that is not harassed by

:21:29.:21:32.

the Shia. -- and eight. You are right. One of the core drivers is

:21:33.:21:39.

that the Sunni community felt excluded and they did not feel they

:21:40.:21:41.

have the trust from the Baghdad government. A lasting solution is

:21:42.:21:47.

stopping some of Islamic State coming back, that involves making

:21:48.:21:53.

sure the Sunni community have a stake in their future. That is

:21:54.:21:57.

making sure that the governing structures are in place. The UK s

:21:58.:22:02.

response is twofold, we have got to get the humanitarian aid right, that

:22:03.:22:07.

is the short term, people who might be malnourished, coming out of the

:22:08.:22:12.

front line. The second thing is working with the Iraqi government to

:22:13.:22:16.

make sure that as we rebuild Mosul we do so in a way that that

:22:17.:22:20.

population feels a connection to the Iraqi state. Islamic State is losing

:22:21.:22:27.

territory everywhere in the Levant, it is almost finished in Iraq, we

:22:28.:22:32.

think. It is down to one district in Libya, as well, just one small part

:22:33.:22:37.

of the town. I suppose the risk is, if life is becoming more difficult

:22:38.:22:42.

across these areas, it can start to look more in Europe and the United

:22:43.:22:48.

Kingdom as a place to continue its terrorist attacks? That is a real

:22:49.:22:54.

danger. You are right. This is a group which has proved over the last

:22:55.:22:58.

five years very unpredictable and it changes for it quickly full stop

:22:59.:23:00.

often it does unexpected things. In often it does unexpected things In

:23:01.:23:05.

2009 its predecessor had been largely wiped out in Iraq and when

:23:06.:23:11.

it was under pressure in Syria it went back into Iraq, and in the past

:23:12.:23:14.

it didn't hold territory but now it holds territory, so you are right.

:23:15.:23:18.

There is a serious risk that as it gets squeezed in the middle East it

:23:19.:23:23.

will try to pop up somewhere else and Mac could include Europe and the

:23:24.:23:27.

United States -- that could. They say that is something they have

:23:28.:23:31.

focused on full stop we also have a big focus on counterterrorism

:23:32.:23:36.

security and making sure that we keep the United Kingdom and Europe

:23:37.:23:43.

say. One final question. -- say -- safe. Maybe events in Mosul could

:23:44.:23:50.

add to the migration crisis in Europe, is that a possibility?

:23:51.:23:55.

Again, you are right, we have seen in Syria it can push migration, the

:23:56.:24:01.

biggest push the migration was the conflict in Syria, and that's the

:24:02.:24:04.

reason why we have but so much energy into getting those refugee

:24:05.:24:08.

camps in place and getting the humanitarian response in place --

:24:09.:24:10.

humanitarian response in place - put so much energy. People will want

:24:11.:24:15.

to remain in their homes, this is their country, but we have got to

:24:16.:24:17.

make it possible for them and that means in the short term looking

:24:18.:24:22.

after their shelter and in the medium to long-term making sure they

:24:23.:24:25.

have livelihoods, jobs and an economic development which is why

:24:26.:24:31.

our support in Iraq is in the UK National interests because it deals

:24:32.:24:34.

with these issues of migration and terrorists. Thanks for joining us.

:24:35.:24:41.

I'm joined now by the Shadow Defence Secretary.

:24:42.:24:48.

Does Labour support British participation in this offensive? We

:24:49.:24:59.

participation in this offensive We fully support the participation in

:25:00.:25:03.

this offensive, extremely important move forward and we voted for this

:25:04.:25:08.

back in 2014. We are asking the government question is, of course, I

:25:09.:25:12.

was asking the Secretary of State this week about this very offensive

:25:13.:25:18.

but we are fully behind our RAF pilots out there and be trading that

:25:19.:25:21.

has been going on to help the forces on the ground. -- the training full

:25:22.:25:27.

stop that is very clear. I wonder if you'll lead it shares that clarity

:25:28.:25:33.

and that position. -- is your leader. This is what Jeremy Corbyn

:25:34.:25:36.

has said. What's been done in Iraq

:25:37.:25:38.

is done by the Iraqi government, and currently

:25:39.:25:40.

supported by the British government. I did not support it

:25:41.:25:42.

when it came up. Well, I'm not sure how successful

:25:43.:25:44.

it's been, because most of the action now appears to be

:25:45.:25:48.

moving in to Syria, so I think we He doesn't sound very supportive.

:25:49.:25:59.

The issue about Mosul, it has been very carefully prepared as Rory

:26:00.:26:02.

Stewart said and I hope we have learned the lessons from previous

:26:03.:26:07.

offensives where we haven't learnt sufficiently, and that is going to

:26:08.:26:12.

be crucial in this context. How the aftermath is going to be dealt with.

:26:13.:26:17.

Of course will stop that clip was from November last year, and things

:26:18.:26:22.

have changed. Two weeks ago he told the BBC" I'm not sure it is

:26:23.:26:28.

working", in reference to air strikes in Iraq, but it is working.

:26:29.:26:32.

We have got to see what happens in Mosul, it is a very high-risk

:26:33.:26:36.

operation, but we also have to face the fact that the people there are

:26:37.:26:40.

living under tyranny at the moment. We have to ask very cirrus question

:26:41.:26:47.

shall stop he says he's not sure it is working, when Mosul is the last

:26:48.:26:50.

major target be cleared of Islamic State in Iraq. The combination of

:26:51.:26:55.

Allied air power has worked, why is he not sure it is working? Because

:26:56.:26:59.

we have seen difficulties in the past. But this was two weeks ago. It

:27:00.:27:05.

is essential that the work is done, both planning for the refugees as

:27:06.:27:09.

Rory Stewart referred to, but also in terms of reconstruction of the

:27:10.:27:12.

city and its community as you mentioned. These are vital. This was

:27:13.:27:18.

about the ability to make progress with Allied air power, special

:27:19.:27:23.

forces in Iraq, on the ground, do you accept so far that has a

:27:24.:27:28.

strategy that seems to be working to read Iraq of Islamic -- to read Iraq

:27:29.:27:40.

of Islamic State the question of the car began placement. Ulloa -- we

:27:41.:27:53.

can't be complacent. The problems they are creating where ever they

:27:54.:27:55.

are urged that we must continue to pursue them. This is the first time

:27:56.:28:01.

we have spoken to since you have become the Shadow Defence Secretary.

:28:02.:28:04.

I hope we will have a longer interview. Will Labour's next

:28:05.:28:09.

manifesto include a commitment to the renewal of Trident? It will We

:28:10.:28:15.

made that commitment in 2007, that is a firm commitment and we will

:28:16.:28:19.

honour that to our coalition allies and our industrial partners and that

:28:20.:28:22.

is the vote which was taken democratically and repeatedly has

:28:23.:28:26.

been reaffirmed by Labour conference and we are a democratic party vote

:28:27.:28:32.

up you have squared that with Jeremy Corbyn? He's in favour of democracy

:28:33.:28:38.

and he understands the situation, but we also want to push for the UK

:28:39.:28:41.

to play a much bigger role on the international stage on multilateral

:28:42.:28:46.

disarmament talks. You were very clear there, I thank you for that.

:28:47.:28:51.

Support for Trident will be in the next Labour manifesto. What has

:28:52.:28:55.

happened to Labour's review of Trident policy? That review has been

:28:56.:29:01.

taking place over the year, we had a very clear reaffirmation in the

:29:02.:29:06.

conference boat this year, we are reaffirming our commitment to

:29:07.:29:07.

Trident -- vote. The review can t Trident -- vote. The review can't

:29:08.:29:14.

change that? There is a process of review and a fair number of issues

:29:15.:29:17.

related to defence, all parties do this. Of course. The review can t

:29:18.:29:22.

this. Of course. The review can't change the commitment to Trident? We

:29:23.:29:26.

are not changing the commitment to Trident. Russia is now the main

:29:27.:29:32.

strategic threat to this country? It is a major strategic threat and we

:29:33.:29:34.

have got to work with our Nato allies very closely and make sure

:29:35.:29:38.

that we respond and that we do not let things pass. For example, we

:29:39.:29:42.

should be calling out Russia for the way it has been a bombing

:29:43.:29:48.

humanitarian aid and we should be taking them to international court

:29:49.:29:50.

over this, but we should also be strengthening sanctions, somewhat

:29:51.:29:58.

imposed over Ukraine. We try to do that, but the Italians wouldn't let

:29:59.:30:03.

us. The Italians did not want to participate in the European

:30:04.:30:04.

initiative but that doesn't stop individual countries for the Britain

:30:05.:30:11.

should step up? Yes, we should look at what is practical to impose.

:30:12.:30:14.

Thanks for joining us. Mosul is not the only major battle

:30:15.:30:19.

being waged in the Middle East. The city of Aleppo in northern Syria

:30:20.:30:22.

has seen some of the heaviest bombardment since Syria's

:30:23.:30:25.

five-year-long civil war began. This week Russian warships,

:30:26.:30:28.

in a deliberate show of power, sailed west through the English

:30:29.:30:32.

channel en route to Syria. Nato says it's Russia's "largest

:30:33.:30:36.

surface deployment" since the end of the Cold War in what is thought

:30:37.:30:39.

to be preparation for a final assault

:30:40.:30:42.

on the besieged city of Aleppo. In the city itself fighting

:30:43.:30:46.

resumed overnight - following a 3-day ceasefire -

:30:47.:30:50.

with more air strikes and heavy clashes in the city's

:30:51.:30:55.

rebel-held eastern districts. Almost 500 people have been

:30:56.:30:58.

killed and 2,000 injured since Syrian government forces,

:30:59.:31:01.

backed by Russian air strikes, This week Theresa May condemned

:31:02.:31:05.

Vladimir Putin's involvement in Syria, accusing Moscow

:31:06.:31:12.

of being behind "sickening atrocities" in support

:31:13.:31:15.

of President Assad's regime. But European leaders are divided

:31:16.:31:18.

on how to respond and, with the United States preoccupied

:31:19.:31:22.

with domestic politics, President Putin senses this

:31:23.:31:25.

is his moment to bring the Syrian I'm joined now by the BBC's former

:31:26.:31:28.

Diplomatic and Moscow Correspondent, Bridget Kendall, who is now Master

:31:29.:31:37.

of Peterhouse College in Cambridge. Welcome. Good to see you in the BBC

:31:38.:31:50.

studio again. Let me put up this satellite image of Aleppo here, to

:31:51.:31:56.

get an idea of the scale. It was the biggest city in Syria. It was the

:31:57.:32:02.

commercial capital and a huge cultural hub as well. Almost the New

:32:03.:32:07.

York of Syria, to give you an idea of its significance to the country.

:32:08.:32:12.

Let me show you now how it's been divided. The rebels are now in

:32:13.:32:17.

control of the eastern part, about eight miles long and three miles

:32:18.:32:24.

wide there, they're in purple. They are under great attacks still. Is it

:32:25.:32:28.

inevitable that that purple part falls to the regime? That is what

:32:29.:32:37.

President as Saad, the Russians and the Iranians hope. The fierce

:32:38.:32:42.

bombardments we have seen is part of that. I'm reminded very much in the

:32:43.:32:47.

Russian tactics of what happened in grudgingly in Chechnya in 2000, when

:32:48.:32:52.

the Russians said, a warning for all civilians to lead, and then they

:32:53.:32:58.

went ahead and they basically raised it to the ground. They are talking

:32:59.:33:03.

about Al Nusrah as being one of the rebel groups. They got rid of all of

:33:04.:33:09.

the terrorists. They talk about it being an Al-Qaeda offshoot. The

:33:10.:33:13.

purpose of going in is to get rid of them. You get the civilians out and

:33:14.:33:17.

then you take it. But this isn't like Chechnya. It is much more

:33:18.:33:22.

complex. We have seen an attempt to take Aleppo before, and then there

:33:23.:33:27.

was a rebel counter offensive. It's not so certain. And there are so

:33:28.:33:31.

many different parties involved. We have seen the alarm in the west of

:33:32.:33:35.

the extent of the civilian casualties. There have been

:33:36.:33:45.

rumblings in the west of, shouldn't the United States do something?

:33:46.:33:47.

Shouldn't they stop the Syrian air force? This Russian aircraft carrier

:33:48.:33:51.

steaming its way towards the Eastern Mediterranean is a symbolic gesture,

:33:52.:33:57.

both to its own people, but also to the West, to say, don't get involved

:33:58.:34:03.

in Aleppo if we go ahead. Don't try and stop us because we could up the

:34:04.:34:09.

ante. They have not been great visual pictures, because the

:34:10.:34:13.

aircraft carrier looks a bit clapped out, belching out smoke! If the

:34:14.:34:20.

rebel controlled area does fall it would be seen as a great victory for

:34:21.:34:24.

President as Saad and his Russian allies. What is the aim of Russia

:34:25.:34:29.

here? What would they then do, if Aleppo Falls? It is part of a plan

:34:30.:34:34.

that President Putin set out in his UN speech in 2014, before Russia

:34:35.:34:40.

went into Syria. The aim is to put President Assad back in charge.

:34:41.:34:44.

President Putin said this weekend that either is Assad in Damascus, or

:34:45.:34:49.

its Al Nusrah. There is nothing in between. They want to eliminate the

:34:50.:34:54.

argument for a moderate opposition. They want to make it plain that the

:34:55.:34:59.

only way to get a stable Syria is to have Assad back in charge. Even sue

:35:00.:35:07.

argue for a rump steak lit, leaving aside what is happening with IAS.

:35:08.:35:16.

They have already said they want to have an enlarged military presence

:35:17.:35:20.

at their bases. And they have a big naval base. It is. It is a chance to

:35:21.:35:28.

push for this when he sees the West is being distracted and divided.

:35:29.:35:34.

Europe and America, by elections and so on. Just before the US elections.

:35:35.:35:39.

The Americans are worried about that, Europeans are being distracted

:35:40.:35:44.

by Brexit. He can push to his maximum advantage now, before there

:35:45.:35:49.

is a new US president. If they do take that part of Aleppo, and that

:35:50.:35:59.

part of northern Syria, does Mr Putin want us to recognise, to

:36:00.:36:04.

admit, that that is now his sphere of influence? I think the rhetoric

:36:05.:36:10.

from the Russians is that they want the West to recognise that they are

:36:11.:36:15.

an equal powerful partner. It's not just the US that runs the writ in

:36:16.:36:19.

the Middle East. Russia is as important as it is. It is engaging

:36:20.:36:25.

with Saudi Arabia and has mended fences with Turkey. Syria is the

:36:26.:36:30.

place from which it can launch its message that it is a big player in

:36:31.:36:35.

the Middle East. Russia wants the West to understand that this isn't a

:36:36.:36:40.

country that was dismembered after the end of the Soviet Union and is

:36:41.:36:45.

now a week. It is back, and it is strong. That is an important

:36:46.:36:47.

message. Looking at the economy. strong. That is an important

:36:48.:36:51.

message. Looking at the economy It message. Looking at the economy. It

:36:52.:36:53.

is in recession. GDP has been falling, partly because of the price

:36:54.:36:59.

of oil. It is highly dependent on hydrocarbons, and is expected to

:37:00.:37:04.

fall again. Its people are falling again. People don't realise how

:37:05.:37:09.

small the Russian economy is. Its GDP is about the size of Italy's. It

:37:10.:37:16.

is smaller than the UK economy. Bigger than it was 15 or 20 years

:37:17.:37:23.

ago. But so is Britain's does it help to take people's mind of this?

:37:24.:37:29.

A huge shock to the Russian economy was a drop in the price of oil and a

:37:30.:37:35.

price of gas. A drop in the price of the ruble as well. This is hurting

:37:36.:37:40.

the people of Russia. On the one hand, it is the war in Syria, which

:37:41.:37:46.

is very important for Russia to sort out that part of the world and

:37:47.:37:51.

dispensed terrorists who might be danger to -- is dangerous to Russia.

:37:52.:37:58.

But he had also has presidential election is going up. They are

:37:59.:38:03.

supposed to be 2018, but some feel he will bring them forward to 2 17,

:38:04.:38:05.

he will bring them forward to 2017, because the economy is not doing so

:38:06.:38:10.

well. But you need a good story for the Russian people. Thank you very

:38:11.:38:12.

much. We say goodbye to viewers

:38:13.:38:14.

in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to your

:38:15.:38:24.

local part of the show. More spending than ever before

:38:25.:38:26.

on the NHS, yet still acciddnt and emergency departments

:38:27.:38:31.

and maternity units We report on health managers' plans

:38:32.:38:33.

to find more than ?1 billion in savings.

:38:34.:38:38.

Labour Shadow Cabinet member and MP for Wansbeck, Ian Lavery,

:38:39.:38:42.

is here to talk about that. Alongside him, the Conservative MP

:38:43.:38:45.

for Thirsk and Malton, will a cash handout be enough

:38:46.:38:47.

to persuade householders to allow fracking for shale gas

:38:48.:38:54.

near their homes? Inflation up to 1% this week

:38:55.:38:56.

and likely to head higher with the rising price of petrol

:38:57.:39:03.

and food imports. Unemployment in the region

:39:04.:39:06.

has fallen, though - down 9,000 on the last quarter

:39:07.:39:08.

in the North East. There were falls too in the numbers

:39:09.:39:11.

claming Job Seekers' Allowance Ian Lavery, is there really

:39:12.:39:13.

a cause for concern here? Inflation is still historic`lly low

:39:14.:39:19.

and 1%, we would be celebrating another times

:39:20.:39:22.

if inflation was that low. Jobs figures show that our

:39:23.:39:24.

economy is in good shape? It doesn't show that the economy

:39:25.:39:27.

is in good shape. The reality, in context

:39:28.:39:29.

with regards to employment, we are still as a region

:39:30.:39:33.

the highest region for We are still the region

:39:34.:39:36.

where there is least employment, we are a blackspot for zero hours

:39:37.:39:44.

contracts, for part-time employment. We have got the lowest wages

:39:45.:39:49.

in the whole of the UK. Not really something

:39:50.:39:53.

we should be celebrating. But it's what type of employment

:39:54.:39:58.

we have here in the North E`st. And we are in a low-wage economy

:39:59.:40:11.

in a -- and spiralling down. And it will cause huge problems

:40:12.:40:14.

if there is a continued increase in inflation, an increase in prices

:40:15.:40:17.

for people who already... We have a record number of people

:40:18.:40:24.

in work claiming benefits Using food banks, we cannot do too

:40:25.:40:27.

much in terms of celebrating Kevin Hollinrake, that's

:40:28.:40:30.

the point, isn't it? With inflationary pressures growing,

:40:31.:40:33.

it will be the poorest, a lot of people in our

:40:34.:40:37.

region, who will suffer. Nationally, we are one

:40:38.:40:39.

of the fastest-growing economies Our economy was in recession

:40:40.:40:41.

in 2010, there has been a miracle There have been 2 million jobs

:40:42.:40:45.

created in the private Generally, record employment,

:40:46.:40:52.

record low unemployment. Do you expect that to continue

:40:53.:40:55.

with all the pressure is a head? Certainly, there are question marks

:40:56.:41:00.

over what our future relationship We need to get that right,

:41:01.:41:02.

to secure our job prospects, But at the moment, the economy

:41:03.:41:06.

is growing, it is growing a decent levels and we need to make

:41:07.:41:12.

sure that is the case. Clearly, the lowering

:41:13.:41:16.

of sterling in terms of world I'm sure those issues will be

:41:17.:41:18.

discussed many times over the next A protest to protect the local

:41:19.:41:25.

NHS began this weekend with marchers making their way

:41:26.:41:30.

from North Yorkshire They say hospital services

:41:31.:41:32.

in their area, including accident and emergency departments

:41:33.:41:35.

and maternity units, But as the NHS across the region

:41:36.:41:38.

looks to save money, The government says efficiencies

:41:39.:41:42.

are vital but denies We're marching from the hospital

:41:43.:41:46.

in Northallerton to Darlington Jo and her friends have become

:41:47.:41:54.

so concerned about what might happen to the services where they live

:41:55.:42:02.

they are marching from hospital All services in our NHS footprint

:42:03.:42:05.

area, which is the area that we are walking,

:42:06.:42:11.

are under threat. The NHS Trust bosses and CCGs have

:42:12.:42:15.

denied the existence of these documents but we have seen them,

:42:16.:42:21.

we know that we could end up I found out about this

:42:22.:42:25.

through googling and The NHS exec hasn't been sharing

:42:26.:42:34.

this with us. They haven't been open

:42:35.:42:42.

and transparent, as far What Jo and other campaigners

:42:43.:42:44.

are worried about are what hs known about sustainability

:42:45.:42:54.

and transformation plans. These have been drawn up

:42:55.:42:55.

for each health region, or footprint, across

:42:56.:42:57.

the country and have now bedn In the North East and Cumbrha,

:42:58.:42:59.

draft plans and other documents this programme has seen says that this

:43:00.:43:04.

NHS here will be more than ?1 billion over budget by 021

:43:05.:43:07.

if it doesn't make efficiency savings and change the way

:43:08.:43:10.

health care is delivered. On Teesside, that might mean

:43:11.:43:13.

the downgrading of accident and emergency units at either

:43:14.:43:16.

or both the North Tees Hosphtal in Stockton, or here

:43:17.:43:20.

at the Darlington Memorial Hospital. And across the wider Teesside area,

:43:21.:43:25.

the delivery of acute medicine and surgery,

:43:26.:43:28.

orthopaedics, gynaecology, maternity, neonatal,

:43:29.:43:31.

intensive care and paediatrhc This is going to have

:43:32.:43:34.

massive impact in my area. The North East is one of thd areas

:43:35.:43:42.

in the country that has the lowest life expectancy,

:43:43.:43:48.

the poorest health. These aren't savings, or efficiency,

:43:49.:43:50.

these are cuts to the NHS btdget at a time when, because of an ageing

:43:51.:43:54.

population and because of complex health needs, we need to have more

:43:55.:43:57.

spent on the NHS in the North East. This is going to have

:43:58.:44:02.

a devastating blow. We asked those behind the NHS

:44:03.:44:05.

sustainability and transforlation plans for Durham and Teesside

:44:06.:44:07.

for an interview, but they declined. We were also given only very limited

:44:08.:44:12.

information and details of their plans for health

:44:13.:44:15.

care in the area. But the Health Secretary told

:44:16.:44:18.

a select committee this week that a more efficient health service does

:44:19.:44:54.

not mean a worse one. What I don't accept is that in order

:44:55.:44:57.

to make those efficiency savings, you have to make changes that will

:44:58.:45:00.

impact negatively on patient care. And I think that there are of course

:45:01.:45:08.

those easy ways to make savings, which is to reduce the availability

:45:09.:45:12.

of care for patients and there is the harder way,

:45:13.:45:24.

but the right way, which is to ways that improve care and improve

:45:25.:45:27.

efficiency at the same time. With winter approaching,

:45:28.:45:30.

the NHS is under pressure. And in the longer term,

:45:31.:45:32.

what the NHS does and what hs spent on it is once more becoming a battle

:45:33.:45:35.

ground between the Well, the Prime Minister was this

:45:36.:45:38.

week asked to intervene to save a maternity unit

:45:39.:45:41.

in Cumbria from closure. Copeland's MP Jamie Reed urged

:45:42.:45:43.

Theresa May to take up the hssue. Removal of 24-hour consultant-led

:45:44.:45:46.

maternity services from the West Cumbria Hospital

:45:47.:45:48.

in Whitehaven will cost livds. And this is a decision

:45:49.:45:51.

which ultimately, the government Will the Prime Minister please

:45:52.:45:54.

commit today to visit my constituency to see what the effect

:45:55.:45:58.

of this decision will be upon West Cumbrian families,

:45:59.:46:01.

women and children. I say to the honourable gentleman,

:46:02.:46:04.

I recognise that this is not the first time he has

:46:05.:46:10.

raised his concerns in relation Can I say to him that the point of

:46:11.:46:12.

the way in which we are approaching this is that decisions are taken

:46:13.:46:18.

and generated from the local level. It is at the local area

:46:19.:46:20.

that they will be looking at the services that

:46:21.:46:23.

are necessary for people. Kevin Hollinrake, called

:46:24.:46:26.

deficiencies, savings, ?1 billion that needs to be found

:46:27.:46:29.

in an overstretched health service. As Labour says, that sounds

:46:30.:46:40.

like a crisis. I want to take issue with one

:46:41.:46:42.

of the comments by Ian Wright. There is record amounts of spending

:46:43.:46:45.

going into the health service. More than any other political

:46:46.:46:49.

party has committed to. Also, the money spent

:46:50.:46:53.

in the North East is far greater per person than is spent

:46:54.:46:55.

in North Yorkshire. So what we do need to make sure

:46:56.:46:57.

is that taxpayers' money So it is quite right,

:46:58.:47:00.

within the NHS, the way it's managed, that services come

:47:01.:47:04.

together, whether that be hdalth trusts, local authorities

:47:05.:47:06.

or the Clinical Commissioning Groups which commission the care,

:47:07.:47:10.

to make sure they are using that But ?1 billion is an awful

:47:11.:47:13.

lot of money. And the suspicion is,

:47:14.:47:20.

whatever Jeremy Hunt says, You will see accident

:47:21.:47:22.

and emergency services going. In some of those documents that

:47:23.:47:25.

were leaks, there were suggestions -- in some of those documents that

:47:26.:47:35.

were leaked, The budget is not being cut

:47:36.:47:41.

but the NHS needs to work This is taxpayers' money,

:47:42.:47:47.

this is patient care. It is quite right that we look

:47:48.:47:50.

to make efficiencies and work The financial figures are there

:47:51.:47:53.

more money is going in. The problem is that Labour's answer

:47:54.:48:02.

appears to be don't close anything, I think it's important that we keep

:48:03.:48:05.

what we got in the NHS. the reality is the savings, or cuts,

:48:06.:48:10.

in real terms to the NHS, what it will result in in otr area

:48:11.:48:13.

is closure is of A E, closures of maternity units and it

:48:14.:48:16.

might even mean closures The Northumberland, Tyne

:48:17.:48:19.

and Wear Trust by 2021 is looking If they have got that deficht,

:48:20.:48:24.

how on earth can they cut that without cutting services

:48:25.:48:32.

and closing hospitals? Because as Kevin Hollinrake says,

:48:33.:48:36.

the government is putting more money The government are not putting more

:48:37.:48:42.

money in the NHS in real terms. . When we look at the situation,

:48:43.:48:55.

these five-year plans... These footprints, these secret

:48:56.:48:57.

meetings which are taking place these meetings where you cannot get

:48:58.:49:00.

sight of any minutes, where there isn't any

:49:01.:49:02.

accountability, there isn't any transparency within these

:49:03.:49:04.

footprints committees, And the general public

:49:05.:49:07.

are loose any confidence... -- the general public are losing

:49:08.:49:17.

confidence. There is real terms growth in NHS

:49:18.:49:20.

spending from central government and the vicious need to Google that,

:49:21.:49:24.

Google King 's fund, an independent The only place that has had real

:49:25.:49:28.

terms cuts is Wales, which hs run Let me raise one issue

:49:29.:49:42.

which Labour did raise. It's very difficult for members

:49:43.:49:45.

of the public to try and ways through, and even the journ`list,

:49:46.:49:49.

to find out what is going on with these proposals

:49:50.:49:52.

and these trust. And that can lead to scare stories

:49:53.:49:53.

but also reality is being hhdden. These proposals were published

:49:54.:49:56.

in December, the idea for those were published

:49:57.:49:59.

in December 2015 by the NHS. But the trust are not telling us

:50:00.:50:02.

what they are proposing? Jeremy Hunt, when he came up

:50:03.:50:06.

to the hospital in Cramlington on a private visit, wouldn't talk

:50:07.:50:08.

to journalists and ended up interviewing himself

:50:09.:50:11.

on social media. This is going into consultation

:50:12.:50:12.

I've had into this consultation. -- I have had input into thhs

:50:13.:50:14.

consultation. and the commissioning groups should

:50:15.:50:27.

listen, as should central government, to make sure th`t we get

:50:28.:50:31.

this right and we don't make cuts where that will cost lives,

:50:32.:50:35.

but is absolutely right that we have an efficient hdalth

:50:36.:50:37.

service and that is What is the answer, Ian Lavdry?

:50:38.:50:39.

It can't just be about more money. The sustainability and

:50:40.:50:47.

transformation five-year pl`ns, there are 44 footprints

:50:48.:50:50.

across the country. They are not consulting

:50:51.:50:52.

with anybody, they are not providing any evidence.

:50:53.:50:58.

There is no transparency. Is that the way to operate such

:50:59.:51:00.

a great institution? The Labour Party is quite fhrm

:51:01.:51:02.

and the polls show that the general public believe that the NHS is much

:51:03.:51:06.

safer in the hands When not in the business of looking

:51:07.:51:09.

to the cut the budget for the NHS... Kevin Hollinrake, if Theresa May

:51:10.:51:14.

sticks to her decision that she doesn't want to put any

:51:15.:51:17.

more money into the NHS, any extra, there will be

:51:18.:51:20.

a winter crisis, won't that? Well, of course we have got to make

:51:21.:51:23.

sure that the efficiencies, We committed to a budget colmitment

:51:24.:51:25.

to the NHS leading through the 2020 that was exactly

:51:26.:51:35.

what Simon Stephens asked for, who was the Chief

:51:36.:51:38.

Executive of the NHS. She has said that we have to work

:51:39.:51:39.

within that budget. Beyond that, we have to look again

:51:40.:51:42.

at health services and at adult social care to make sure th`t we

:51:43.:51:47.

have a properly funded system. Now, we know there are plenty

:51:48.:51:50.

of protests when people find an open cast coal mine or a wind farm

:51:51.:51:55.

is planned near their homes. But to make it more palatable,

:51:56.:51:58.

it's long been the case that areas affected by such planning decisions

:51:59.:52:01.

receive compensation to bendfit Well, the Government is taking that

:52:02.:52:04.

idea a stage further when it comes to the controversial issue

:52:05.:52:08.

of drilling for shale gas - High in the Durham Dales,

:52:09.:52:10.

these turbines have been Generating power and clocking up

:52:11.:52:15.

cash for nearby Esh Winning. The village community centrd's

:52:16.:52:18.

kitchen is the latest to be kitted out with cash from a fund sdt up

:52:19.:52:22.

by the wind farm developer. In the last year alone,

:52:23.:52:25.

?200,000 from such communitx benefit funds has been doled

:52:26.:52:28.

out in County Durham. I think it's really important that

:52:29.:52:32.

local communities who have in their environment,

:52:33.:52:34.

in this case, renewable energy sources, contributing

:52:35.:52:37.

to the national need for renewable energy, they receive

:52:38.:52:41.

some benefits for that. And because these benefit ftnds

:52:42.:52:44.

are awarded from a community panel, it is the community panel

:52:45.:52:47.

that make the decision, it's a great way for

:52:48.:52:50.

the local community to take But can cash really

:52:51.:52:52.

over, controversy? Protesters hoping to hold plans

:52:53.:53:03.

to extract shale gas They failed and now

:53:04.:53:08.

fracking, as some call it, Behind those green gates

:53:09.:53:19.

are the sites that have Where the shale gas

:53:20.:53:22.

will be extracted. But the government says communities

:53:23.:53:25.

around here could share in this Bit like the wind farms,

:53:26.:53:27.

proceeds from shale gas extraction But in nearby Kirby Misperton,

:53:28.:53:31.

opposition seems undimmed. There may be more

:53:32.:53:35.

temptation on the way. To corrupt a famous catchphrase

:53:36.:53:38.

the government doesn't just want to give communities this

:53:39.:53:40.

cheque, it is also considerhng Consulting on whether individual

:53:41.:53:42.

householders get up to ?20,000 The fund will get 10% of the tax

:53:43.:53:49.

revenues from shale gas. ?20,000 to accept fracking near your

:53:50.:53:57.

home, Deal or no Deal? Definitely no Deal.

:53:58.:54:08.

You can keep it. I think it's a cynical ploy, it s

:54:09.:54:09.

a bribe to try to get people onside. Firstly, you could get to ?20,0 0,

:54:10.:54:13.

but you have to price will fall. -- but you will house price will

:54:14.:54:20.

fall. -- but your house price. Secondly, it's very poor

:54:21.:54:27.

compensation for the risks that people are going

:54:28.:54:29.

to face from these wells. Their health and their well,being,

:54:30.:54:32.

implications of fracking. It's an unknown industry

:54:33.:54:34.

in this country, still. This holiday complex

:54:35.:54:35.

is run by Lorraine. She sees no problem

:54:36.:54:38.

in the communities or individuals benefiting from an industry

:54:39.:54:41.

she welcomes. If they are near a shale gas

:54:42.:54:42.

well and they've got to have the inconvenience

:54:43.:54:46.

of trucks going past for a temporary amount of time,

:54:47.:54:48.

then why shouldn't And imagine the trade that `ll this

:54:49.:54:50.

activity would bring for all the different businesses

:54:51.:54:55.

in this area. The government consultation on how

:54:56.:54:57.

the Shale Welfare Fund But so far, there are plentx

:54:58.:55:00.

of people in Ryedale who are not yet persuaded their community

:55:01.:55:05.

will be better off. Kevin Hollinrake, the protesters

:55:06.:55:14.

are right, this is bribery? The decision to push ahead

:55:15.:55:18.

with shale gas exploration was taken in Parliament by 2015,

:55:19.:55:22.

passed by a huge majority, 250 beds, because it is

:55:23.:55:24.

a national opportunity. 22 million homes in the UK tse gas

:55:25.:55:32.

to heat their homes. So if we've got it

:55:33.:55:37.

and we can produce it, Because if you import it,

:55:38.:55:40.

then you export jobs. Now, of course when it comes local

:55:41.:55:46.

at that point, some people are bound to have concerns and tempor`rily

:55:47.:55:49.

have some inconvenience in terms of noise pollution, light pollution,

:55:50.:55:51.

traffic movements... So individual payments are fine

:55:52.:55:53.

from your point of view? I think it's right that local people

:55:54.:55:55.

who suffer the inconvenient should But it's for inconvenience,

:55:56.:55:58.

not for pollution I think those are scare stories that

:55:59.:56:05.

are absolutely without foundation. The particular development

:56:06.:56:08.

in your constituency in Kirby Misperton,

:56:09.:56:10.

is subject to a High Court How confident are you that it

:56:11.:56:12.

will still go ahead. But one thing viewers should

:56:13.:56:15.

look at, in your clip, you were studied in front

:56:16.:56:19.

of what is actually a gas wdll pad. And all you can see

:56:20.:56:26.

is a collection of trees. That will not industrialise

:56:27.:56:33.

the countryside in Ryedale. If it did, or there was a likelihood

:56:34.:56:35.

that it would, I was up -- Ian Lavery, the principle

:56:36.:56:38.

is the same, why shouldn't I'm not sure that anybody living

:56:39.:56:43.

next to an opencast mine has Individuals haven't

:56:44.:56:47.

as yet, but you agree The government came up inithally

:56:48.:56:50.

with the compensation in terms of the shale wealth fund

:56:51.:56:56.

for the communities to prob`bly use for infrastructure programmds,

:56:57.:56:59.

skills and development. They have changed their view now

:57:00.:57:03.

because that was not widely received in the communities and now

:57:04.:57:09.

they are trying to bribe individuals, but neighbour

:57:10.:57:12.

against neighbour, friend Well, Labour was lukewarm

:57:13.:57:14.

on fracking, now it And yet, as Kevin Hollinrake says,

:57:15.:57:20.

a lot of imported gas, why not Well I was on the energy select

:57:21.:57:25.

committee for five years I gave fracking a chance,

:57:26.:57:30.

by the way, I thought it was important...

:57:31.:57:37.

Your party doesn't. What is really important is

:57:38.:57:39.

that we listen to what commtnities And it's quite obvious that

:57:40.:57:42.

communities want no part What happened to localism

:57:43.:57:46.

in the Conservative Party? He has made that same point

:57:47.:57:49.

for housing development, We as MPs get complaints

:57:50.:57:56.

about all these things. I understand that communitids

:57:57.:57:59.

are concerned and I have worked very hard over the last 18 months to meet

:58:00.:58:02.

those concerns, to reduce the numbers of well pads,

:58:03.:58:05.

to make sure we have the proper regulations in place

:58:06.:58:08.

and the supervision. Because that is what they

:58:09.:58:09.

are concerned about. But there are too many scard

:58:10.:58:11.

stories going around. Now, contrasting fortunes for

:58:12.:58:13.

libraries in the region this week. And a visit to Westminster

:58:14.:58:20.

for council leaders on Teesside Just a couple of the stories making

:58:21.:58:23.

the news in our regular Council leaders in the Tees Valley

:58:24.:58:26.

have met Local Government Secretary Sajid Javid to the final totches

:58:27.:58:35.

to the devolution deal. The Minister says

:58:36.:58:39.

Teesside will benefit. He criticised those other

:58:40.:58:41.

counties in the North East And that's really bad for local

:58:42.:58:43.

people in terms of jobs and growth Berwick MP Anne Marie Trevelyan has

:58:44.:58:50.

told a Westminster debate that changes to the way homes

:58:51.:58:55.

are provided for military personnel could drive families away from bases

:58:56.:58:57.

into privately rented homes, increasing isolation

:58:58.:59:01.

and damaging morale. Many families have been sayhng to me

:59:02.:59:04.

this would be the last straw, A public hearing is taking place

:59:05.:59:07.

in Carlisle about planned boundary changes which could see West Cumbria

:59:08.:59:10.

lose a parliamentary seat. And finally, The Word,

:59:11.:59:18.

a ?1.6 million library and cultural It's part of South Tyneside

:59:19.:59:20.

Council's plan to regenerate In Sunderland, councillors blamed

:59:21.:59:24.

government cuts for the closure of their city centre

:59:25.:59:27.

library and its relocation Ian Lavery, to bring up the

:59:28.:59:44.

libraries. To Labour councils, different outcomes. South Tyneside

:59:45.:59:45.

has a nice new one and Sunddrland has a nice new one and Sunddrland

:59:46.:59:50.

bemoaning removing theirs. Doesn't it show that this is local

:59:51.:59:53.

decision-making, not blaming government cuts? We have to look at

:59:54.:59:58.

government cuts. When you look at the grand system which in Tory hails

:59:59.:00:03.

councils, they have had a cut of councils, they have had a cut of

:00:04.:00:10.

something like ?60 per household. In the Labour seat,, it is nearly

:00:11.:00:17.

300... Still a lot of money coming here rather than the south. I feel

:00:18.:00:24.

really sorry for these councils. Councillors do not go into the

:00:25.:00:28.

business of running local authorities to keep cutting and

:00:29.:00:31.

cutting. Libraries are very important. I think they havd got

:00:32.:00:33.

cutting. Libraries are very important. I think they have got a

:00:34.:00:33.

important. I think they havd got a duty to look at where they needed

:00:34.:00:39.

pay... They are so important, I need to ask the other guest! This is

:00:40.:00:44.

happening in your area. Libraries handed the volunteers. My area as

:00:45.:00:50.

well as suffering from cuts. You may be point that my local area gets a

:00:51.:00:55.

lot less from central government grant than urban areas. We get a

:00:56.:01:00.

worse deal but we are still getting cuts. The library services hn terms

:01:01.:01:03.

cuts. The library services in terms of their budgets have been cut. We

:01:04.:01:05.

haven't seen any closures ydt. haven't seen any closures yet.

:01:06.:01:10.

Community groups are setting in which is good. But we are still in

:01:11.:01:14.

this country is spending ?70 billion a year more than...

:01:15.:01:15.

And that's about it from us for this week.

:01:16.:01:18.

So, Brexit, airports, Calais and the chances

:01:19.:01:28.

With what Rory Stewart was saying there, it is clear that Islamic

:01:29.:01:51.

State is losing territory in Iraq now, and could come under pressure

:01:52.:01:57.

in Syria as well. It used to control a whole swathe of the coast of

:01:58.:02:05.

Libya, and is now down to a small area of Sirte in Libya. But

:02:06.:02:09.

curiously, it could make them more dangerous here if they are being

:02:10.:02:14.

driven out of the Maghreb and the Levant, they could be more dangerous

:02:15.:02:19.

here. Discuss. That was a very interesting admission from a

:02:20.:02:25.

government minister, of all people, and a well-informed one. Chasing

:02:26.:02:30.

Isis around the Middle East is about... Like chasing Al-Qaeda

:02:31.:02:34.

around Afghanistan and Pakistan. You smash them somewhere, and they pop

:02:35.:02:44.

up somewhere else. He is right to warn that these guys will go

:02:45.:02:51.

somewhere. And it may well be, in Sirte, for example, across the magic

:02:52.:03:00.

oration -- across the Mediterranean into Italy. A lot of the foreign

:03:01.:03:05.

fighters in Mosul have already gone, we heard, which raises the question,

:03:06.:03:12.

to where? I think it is quite right for government ministers to warn

:03:13.:03:16.

that it might have repercussions here. We have been involved in this,

:03:17.:03:21.

with full public consent, as far as we can tell. If it doesn't happen,

:03:22.:03:26.

if there are horrors and outrages here and in the rest of Europe,

:03:27.:03:32.

that's fine. If it does happen, at least the government is prepared. We

:03:33.:03:36.

knew surprised about how categorical Nia Griffith was? She was

:03:37.:03:47.

categorical about support for the Allied action in Iraq, and

:03:48.:03:53.

categorical about Russia. So much so that perhaps written should take

:03:54.:03:58.

tougher sanctions on its own, even if it can't get the Europeans to

:03:59.:04:03.

fall in line. I found that interesting. I was surprised by

:04:04.:04:08.

that. Tom may be right that Rory said more than perhaps he was

:04:09.:04:12.

intending, but I thought that some of what she said sounded politically

:04:13.:04:17.

imprudent in the current context of the Labour Party. I'm not sure she

:04:18.:04:22.

cleared those lines with the Labour office. I'm not sure she and Jeremy

:04:23.:04:27.

are in the same place about it. I'm not sure there is that much

:04:28.:04:31.

leadership. People at the moment get out there and say what they think

:04:32.:04:35.

it's right for the party. She sounded dead right to me. Whether it

:04:36.:04:41.

is ill-advised or not, people should answer... I want to move on, because

:04:42.:04:49.

Brexit never goes away. This week we saw Hilary Benn, former Shadow

:04:50.:04:52.

Foreign Secretary. He is going to be the chair of the select committee in

:04:53.:04:56.

the Commons which will monitor the Department for Brexit. All sorts of

:04:57.:05:00.

people will be coming to give testimony and so one. Let's hear

:05:01.:05:01.

what he told Andrew Marr. I think it will be very important

:05:02.:05:04.

for the government to indicate that if it is not possible within the two

:05:05.:05:07.

years provided for by Article 5 to negotiate both our withdrawal

:05:08.:05:11.

agreement and a new trading relationship, market access,

:05:12.:05:13.

including for services, 80% of our economy, million jobs,

:05:14.:05:15.

in financial services, that it should tell the House

:05:16.:05:17.

of Commons that it will seek a transitional arrangement

:05:18.:05:20.

with the European Union. If the deal is not done at the end

:05:21.:05:32.

of the two-year Article 50 process, would the government go for an

:05:33.:05:38.

interim agreement, or would it fall back on WTO, World Trade

:05:39.:05:43.

Organisation, Rawls? My understanding is the article 15

:05:44.:05:46.

negotiation doesn't specifically include what Britain's future

:05:47.:05:50.

trading relationship with the EU would be. It is perfectly possible

:05:51.:05:55.

that Article 50 could be triggered, and after two years we don't have a

:05:56.:06:00.

trade deal, but the trade deal negotiations are ongoing when we are

:06:01.:06:13.

outside the EU. But the trade deal negotiations are the most important

:06:14.:06:15.

thing. If Article 50 doesn't cover it, what is it about? Absolutely

:06:16.:06:17.

essential. The trade deal with Canada has taken nine years, and now

:06:18.:06:22.

it looks like it is fading, because of the Walloons. Just one small part

:06:23.:06:32.

of the country. If you cannot do a free-trade deal with Canada, a

:06:33.:06:37.

progressive, social Democratic Canada, who can the EU do a trade

:06:38.:06:41.

deal with? You would think it would be easy with us, because we have all

:06:42.:06:46.

of the level playing field agreements in place. You would hope

:06:47.:06:50.

it would be easier, but it may not be, because in the end, it will

:06:51.:06:54.

hinge on the single market and if we are in or out. If we are in, can we

:06:55.:07:04.

have a small break on immigration? It looks like not. What is

:07:05.:07:07.

interesting about the opinion polls is, in the last two opinion polls

:07:08.:07:11.

there was a significant change in public opinion, where people are now

:07:12.:07:15.

saying they think that actually trade, the economy, the single

:07:16.:07:20.

market is more important than immigration. If it is really true,

:07:21.:07:24.

as the observer is reporting today, that banks are on the move, and in a

:07:25.:07:29.

year's time there could be a significant collapse in the income

:07:30.:07:34.

we get from finance, the income that the Treasury gets, then public

:07:35.:07:46.

opinion might change. They may say, we don't want more immigration, but

:07:47.:07:48.

this isn't a price worth paying. Everything tends to be seen through

:07:49.:07:54.

the Brexit lens at the moment. Things are not always as they seem.

:07:55.:08:00.

The Canadian- EU free trade agreement was about increasing free

:08:01.:08:01.

trade between the EU and Canada, and trade between the EU and Canada and

:08:02.:08:06.

therefore subject to the ratification of all members. Any

:08:07.:08:10.

deal we do will not give us the same access we have at the moment. The

:08:11.:08:15.

question is, how much will it be diminished? It may not be subject to

:08:16.:08:22.

the same ratification process. Absolutely right. Another

:08:23.:08:24.

unbelievably technical point that we still don't know is, if we can get

:08:25.:08:31.

this free-trade deal with the EU at the same time as our Brexit talks

:08:32.:08:35.

and deal, the divorce deal as well as the remarriage deal, then one

:08:36.:08:44.

gets signed off by QM V. The trade deal may still need all 28, all 27,

:08:45.:08:52.

including the people from the Walloons. And the MEPs. The majority

:08:53.:08:59.

of parliament. This is exactly why Theresa May would like the

:09:00.:09:02.

transitional deal to push this one deeper. I was surprised to hear

:09:03.:09:06.

Hilary Benn pushing this line this morning. The remainers have been all

:09:07.:09:11.

over the place. They wanted a vote after Article 50 had been triggered

:09:12.:09:16.

about the deal. Then they wanted a vote before Article 50. Now they are

:09:17.:09:24.

talking about a vote before article Article 50 is triggered about a

:09:25.:09:28.

trade deal. They need to make up their minds about what it is they

:09:29.:09:33.

are pushing for, and what their best hope of obstructing Brexit is, and

:09:34.:09:39.

stick with it. Something else we see through the Brexit lens, which isn't

:09:40.:09:44.

always helpful, is Calais. The French bulldozers will move in

:09:45.:09:47.

tomorrow. We will see some pretty disturbing scenes on the TV. We will

:09:48.:09:53.

see some horrible scenes. The government has handled this very

:09:54.:09:57.

badly. Having passed an amendment in April saying we would take something

:09:58.:10:03.

like 3000 children, a lot of those children have disappeared. Save the

:10:04.:10:06.

Children, one of the charities there, are very worried that people

:10:07.:10:10.

traffickers have been in there, and a lot of those children have

:10:11.:10:18.

vanished. We haven't sent social workers in. No preparations have

:10:19.:10:22.

been made what ever. You are raising an interesting point. We don't know

:10:23.:10:29.

how many we are meant to be taking. The huge argument has arisen over

:10:30.:10:33.

what the age is of some of the ones coming in. Is this another problem

:10:34.:10:40.

for the Home Office? To some extent. Didn't Theresa May 's too well to

:10:41.:10:45.

survive six weeks of this? Amber Rudd has been there for three

:10:46.:10:49.

months. It is clear that the Home Office didn't prepare for this. They

:10:50.:10:53.

didn't prepare for the age verification or when it will go. It

:10:54.:11:01.

needs to be an perfect. We don't know how many we will take, because

:11:02.:11:07.

the Home Office will not say. I want to talk about airport capacity, but

:11:08.:11:11.

I won't, because I don't think we have anything to say about it until

:11:12.:11:16.

the statement on Tuesday from Transport Minister Grayling. When

:11:17.:11:21.

you look at the polls and see the decision on airport runway expansion

:11:22.:11:24.

being kicked into the long grass for a year, are we heading for an early

:11:25.:11:29.

election next year or not? I think Theresa May will do everything she

:11:30.:11:34.

can to avoid it. If there is an election before 2020, it is bound to

:11:35.:11:41.

be about Europe, and that is a much harder case for her to win than just

:11:42.:11:44.

a question of who is the best Prime Minister. She will have a tough

:11:45.:11:49.

time, because it will be a general election about in or out of the

:11:50.:11:54.

single market. Half of her party will peel away. How do she conduct a

:11:55.:11:59.

general election when the likes of Anna Soubry will not stand on the

:12:00.:12:04.

same platform? It will be difficult. But she may reach such a stalemate

:12:05.:12:14.

that she just calls one. No general election next year because it will

:12:15.:12:16.

split the Tory party. There will be won in 2019 when she cannot get

:12:17.:12:20.

Brexit through the House of Commons. You really can have too much of a

:12:21.:12:25.

good thing. I just want to show a little clip of the former Shadow

:12:26.:12:30.

Chancellor, Ed Balls, from Strictly last night. Let's just watch this.

:12:31.:12:33.

There he is. Where is the hand? That is the

:12:34.:12:46.

worrying bit! We will no longer be saying that Ed Balls is a safe pair

:12:47.:12:53.

of hands! Can we agree on that? Remarkable that he was once the man

:12:54.:12:58.

most feared by David Cameron! Labour leader 2021. He has hit popular

:12:59.:13:06.

culture in the way that many few politicians do. Charm, gusto,

:13:07.:13:12.

bravery, no worries about being embarrassed. All the things that you

:13:13.:13:19.

don't like about being a politician. We have run out of time. You can get

:13:20.:13:22.

it on social media. Jo Coburn will be back

:13:23.:13:25.

with the Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here next

:13:26.:13:27.

Sunday at the same time. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:28.:13:31.

it's the Sunday Politics. Everyone's living these

:13:32.:14:04.

amazing lives, You're like a...

:14:05.:14:06.

Different person? Delve deeper.

:14:07.:14:17.

Ordinary Lives continues... They have something on me

:14:18.:14:27.

that I can actually remember. They have something on me

:14:28.:14:28.

that I can actually remember. The final chapter between

:14:29.:14:32.

Gibson and Spector.

:14:33.:14:37.

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by minister of state for international development Rory Stewart, shadow secretary of state for defence Nia Griffith and Paul Nuttall MEP. Political panellists include The Sun's Tom Newton Dunn, The Guardian's Polly Toynbee and The Spectator's Toby Young.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS