With guests Iain Duncan Smith, Chi Onwurah and Haras Rafiq of the Quilliam Foundation. Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards and Tim Shipman are on the political panel.
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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
Theresa May says she wants to help people who are
"just about managing" - so should she reverse
George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people
Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,
says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.
So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?
Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation
into her use of a private email server - is this the boost
Help chances of winning the White House?
Here, good news for Nissan, but what about the rest
Now it is just a question of building that runway with the
political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio
on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political
panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,
'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two
new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant
in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday
was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British
economy is in rude health This morning, the Business
Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given
to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest
for there to be tariff barriers to the continent
and vice versa. So, what I said is that our
objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets
in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without
bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach
those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle
by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has
been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by
making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for
the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in
the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of
incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are
absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most
productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most
productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade
unions and the business organisations, and everybody who
campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their
future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge
difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make
things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing
sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.
I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow
business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims
the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a
small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs
in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're
really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,
and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t
ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job
security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors
as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important
they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you
say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that
what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole
industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he
had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our
industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered
piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,
actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what
is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on
science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You
must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an
industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say
industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you
disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he
has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in
general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with
that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let
him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we
need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and
joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That
was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed
support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is
not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there
was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to
be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you
claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to
be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I
would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances
that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of
what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the
single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs
Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very
good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant
investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is
some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would
like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what
would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with
the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain
competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg
Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we
do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about
reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're
going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only
those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention
of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a
competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave
them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest
Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made
strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise
corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could
you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our
vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong
manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at
Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,
well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't
have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union
laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing
investment. Remember, the last government took away the
Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed
corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill
economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.
I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is
left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid
point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could
say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he
could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was
enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving
training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not
know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is
if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government
says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an
industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't
made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an
impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure
this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of
millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I
spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to
Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that
Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,
its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some
bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk
away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -
based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position
because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want
to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a
smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to
articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think
the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were
anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an
objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its
right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one
thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this
morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of
financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for
skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial
investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal
under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a
financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would
be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just
released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.
The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited
about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would
be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded
as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal
about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about
what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff
free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is
where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how
the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's
negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.
It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We
are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.
Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare
claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst
encouraging people into work by making work pay.
But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work
incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?
Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,
as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.
Theresa May says she wants a country that works
for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.
It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them
to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out
and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes
But now some in her party are worried that the low earners
will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system
originally set up to encourage more people into work.
We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit
Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget
to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.
Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs
in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.
I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might
be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,
Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand
To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,
and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions
Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.
Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan
that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.
One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system
That is how much you can earn before your credit
As the Government has sought to save money,
both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,
both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,
that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.
The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.
That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep
It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.
What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?
The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.
If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer
budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains
in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,
recipients will be hit by annual deductions.
Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.
A dual-earning couple with two children under four,
with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other
working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20
hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.
Hit most by the changes would be a single parent
with a child under four, working full-time
I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given
the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.
What I would like to see is an increase in the work
allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.
That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,
because they are the people we need to absolutely make
The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs
are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.
A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact
analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures
Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect
of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.
But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit
the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.
What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first
time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year
because these reforms actually do make sense.
What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people
off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people
earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this
People are coming off welfare and into work.
Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve
The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple
Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right
that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,
for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have
I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,
because is costing us an awful lot of money.
With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's
new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,
its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it
And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,
Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side
of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit
from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed
as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed
because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going
to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for
being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus
on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic
terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is
the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this
right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the
direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too
much money out of that group of people when there are other areas
which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit
is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to
stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were
there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it
should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to
stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but
that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but
first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis
of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant
and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I
do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised
that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that
pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing
the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost
us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another
5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind
you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in
2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a
week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes
that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.
What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and
election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us
today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest
in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.
Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose
benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too
high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the
moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at
65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will
face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.
The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand
is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to
get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into
work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in
hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have
a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same
commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty
going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What
happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax
credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe
given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point
where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,
it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the
summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise
the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being
higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the
consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take
collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,
but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.
There was another attempt before the spending review last year to
increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed
to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last
year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of
that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if
we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is
singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the
paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of
the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a
diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate
will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I
will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you
put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed
it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed
circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne
introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe
so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I
don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax
threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is
in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,
and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to
improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green
paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes
necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be
done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work
and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort
our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make
sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what
you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would
that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on
in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would
it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is
first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where
they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the
re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the
IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,
and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,
because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less
incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We
don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I
would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.
-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would
prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold
razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,
getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal
Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written
by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic
and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that
people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take
on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?
This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that
enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five
deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to
Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,
genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to
make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think
she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have
a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto
commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the
personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to
an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock
that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?
What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now
the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations
Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as
a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.
It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about
ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but
after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and
allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the
triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under
pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money
out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on
the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are
up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by
Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay
for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock
and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?
As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the
intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.
Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -
who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.
That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took
against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist
Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November
2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council
of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British
In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker
who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.
From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been
involved in a number of community organisations, including
the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,
Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education
and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.
But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called
Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local
community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences
he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.
The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally
outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses
terrorists - as particularly sinister.
The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise
Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that
Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.
We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer
on their Religious Education Committee.
The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that
Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group
in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.
I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam
Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a
statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject
the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and
unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam
What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At
the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he
belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque
would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be
saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and
extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very
important decision and a very important judgment by the judge
First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer
of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of
things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand
by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody
who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential
libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and
people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's
some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who
promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a
step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing
within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really
concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were
consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What
is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It
comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for
them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist
to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a
revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And
then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.
We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,
growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political
ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular
problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the
theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that
excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good
to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi
problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of
mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on
the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll
and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are
speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we
have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in
prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But
there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will
show one face to the community because they actually need that for
a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to
operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their
constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these
people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.
And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque
stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you
surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with
Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that
decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with
extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I
don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge
that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an
extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have
a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a
law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated
violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there
is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into
question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other
Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to
say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties
from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure
could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make
it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg
has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have
to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they
say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.
But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner
and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose
them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
Hello and a warm welcome to your local part of the show.
This week, good news for Nissan as the government offers "stpport
and assurances" about life after Brexit,
but what about the rest of the region's industries?
I will be asking my guests, North East Labour Euro-MP P`ul
Brannen and Guy Opperman, the Conservative MP for Hexham.
And we will be getting reaction from the chairman of UKIP
Also this week, do our councils have enough money to provide adepuate
care to older and disabled people? We report from Cumbria.
It has been a week dominated by transport.
We will talk about Nissan and the motor industry in a moment,
but let us get a reaction fhrst to the expansion
Transport Secretary Chris Grayling came to Newcastle this week,
to explain how a third runw`y would be good for business
And as part of the Heathrow deal, he said Durham Tees Valley @irport
will also see the reintroduction of flights to London.
Another big expansion announcement for the south?
Crumbs from the table for this region?
This is what the Chamber of Commerce, the airports and `ll the
local businesses have been asking for ages.
And it was very significant that the first place the Tr`nsport
Secretary went to after the announcement about Heathrow Airport
Coming to Newcastle Airport, explaining how
the connectivity we will get by the expansion of Heathrow,
making the north-east a much better place for business
Better for business and generally
If you can explain Labour's position on this you are a
A lot of local Labour MPs s`y it is that a good decision.
They are enthusiastic about the expansion of Heathrow
The party leadership does not seem to know, does it?
I think both of the major parties have politicians on
There are people in the Conservative Party
opposed to the expansion of Heathrow.
I personally am a long-standing climate change
campaigner and I am not happy about the expansion of air
travel at the moment, when we are trying to tackld
Does the party not need to come to some sort of conclusion?
The divisions within the Conservative Party, but the
We are not in the position to have to take that decision.
The Labour Party position, as I understand it
at the moment, is that the party is in favour of an expansion to
But there are senior figures within the party, going right
to the top of the leadership, who are not happy with the decision.
I think it is a story which will be rumbling
Now, Nissan's decision to build two new models
at its Sunderland plant is, everybody accepts, great
But what are the political implications?
Labour says the government needs to come clean on any secret deal,
while ministers deny taxpaydrs' cash has been promised to the colpany.
It has all come in the week MPs at Westminster debated
the impact Brexit will have upon the North East's econoly.
The news from Nissan was grdat for the North East -
The PM and other ministers had several meetings with the company
and believe the reassurances they offered were crucial.
They have been convinced, through the conversations wd have
had, that the government sh`res their enthusiasm and is detdrmined,
as part of our industrial strategy, that this will be the best place in
the world for them to make these investments.
We have been showing Nissan and others that we are
determined to get the best possible deal from the future relationship
we will be negotiating with the European Union.
We wish to ensure - and asstre the competitiveness
Nissan say they were not offered any special deal.
Ministers say no cheque book was flourished.
assurances could lead to anx financial commitment.
Ahead of the announcement, concerns were raised in Parliament
I believe it is incumbent on the government to tell us
Because it seems to me that the much-vaunted windf`ll
to the Exchequer of not being in the EU will not be
available for spending in the NHS, if ever it was, because it will be
needed to subsidise industrx in a way we did not need to before.
Other North East MPs want to know what may be
If some sort of agreement is made around the automotive
industry, that would not necessarily involve all of the companies
involved in the supply chain to Nissan.
Because they also produce p`rts for other companies'
manufacturing, they would not necessarily be protected by any
special deal being done for the automotive industry.
What about the rest of the manufacturing
What are ministers planning to do to safeguard their interests?
What of the growing tech st`rt-ups in my constituency and elsewhere?
But for Brexiteers this is proof positive that the region's
industries will thrive outwith the EU and even
I find it very depressing that Labour continue to ignore
both the wishes of the North East voters, who made it very,
very clear that they wanted a different relationship
with the EU, by voting in enormous numbers to leave.
I have had business knocking on my door consistently durhng
the summer excited about the prospect of exporting in a more
Being in the single market is not the be
Nissan will be remaining here post-Brexit, but questhons
remain about the type of de`l they got and what other deals might
be on offer for other industries in the region.
But you were one of the dool-mongers during the referendum.
You told us that Brexit would jeopardise jobs
You were wrong and the government is doing everything
it can to make sure there is a thriving automotive industry
in the north-east well into the future.
I am very happy to say this is absolutely fantastic news.
It is the best piece of news I have heard since the decision to leave
I am delighted for the north-east and
delighted for the people who work at Nissan.
And also delighted for the people who work in the supply chain,
because there is a lot more jobs at stake than purely those
It is fantastic news, but I think there is a
question about what the arrangement has been.
We may have a rather odd situation now, where senior
people within Nissan Japan know more about
our Brexit arrangements than we know in our own country,
particularly in the House of Commons.
Ministers have been a bit shady about the details of this.
The conclusion has to be th`t some sort of deal was cooked up.
They are a company with their head screwed on.
Going back to your tape, Nissan accepted that
there was no cash incentives, nothing of that manner.
What they have said is that we will ensure that the United Kingdom and
the north-east is the most competitive place to do bushness,
the easiest place to do manufacturing and the best
corporation tax and investmdnt rates. The corporation tax. It is no
less and 20%. Investment support, apprenticeships, they arrow. All of
us in the weeks Nissan were saying they were very concerned. They had
multiple meetings with ministers, the impression given in somd
newspapers is that Nissan worker told you will not lose out because
of Brexit. The implication was that there may not be money no, but there
could be in the future. No, they were told that the United Khngdom
was totally the best place for you to do business. Better than other
places in Europe. You seem that is all they did to persuade thd
company? Why not tell us wh`t the deal actually was? This shotld apply
to all businesses, from a corner shop to every business in the
country. It just happens th`t Nissan was the first in the queue for
discussion. Fiona, this is not a Brexit vivid income a better deal
having to be made with a colpany, all of which will have to bd done in
the future. The company said there was no financial deal made. It is in
everyone's interest that we have free trade after we leave the
European Union. If all the discussions feel, it will cost the
European Union more tariffs. We are in a very strong position. H think
we will get the free trade deal There is no certainty that.
Common-sense dictates that we will. Tony Blair has suggested th`t Nissan
were told that we would be pursuing a deal which would get is a town of
three deal in the market. Clearly, something has happened. Nissan Had
concerns and worries. Why don't we short-circuit the whole process If
there are going to be a serhes of meetings with other companids, why
does the Minister not come out and seek these are the arrangemdnts
employees for all companies. This is what we have struck with Nissan and
we will do the same with others If there are other negotiations, for
help will be on offer to other businesses and corporations? Just
relating to corporation tax? We need to make sure we have the most
competitive country in Europe. The objective is clear. We wish to seek
access to the single market with greater control over borders,
sovereignty and the legal sxstem. How you take forward that is the
prospect of two and a half xears negotiation. But you have to give
reassurance to business. Will every industry have helped? It is not the
question of help. It is not the type of situation. It is making sure of
this country and this region is the most competitive place to do Europe
-- business in the hall of Durope. Europe preference for a heart
Brexit, leaving the single larket is quickly as possible, could be
disastrous for export industries? Ideally, we want a free trade
agreement. But you also want control of the Borders, which the Etropean
Union hubby Collier will not happen. Obviously, we have a trade deficit
and it isn't the interest to strike a deal. If the debt given a good
deal, other countries could look at this and say, we would be bdtter
looking at the -- leaving the European Union. Surely it is in
their interest to play very hard with the United Kingdom. I do not
think there is anything to worry about in that regard. Even hf we had
to resort to world trade organisation rules, we will be
better off. Now, Labour has warned
that the majority of local councils can no longer afford the cost
of providing adequate They say rising demand,
coupled with government cuts, is putting unprecedented prdssure
upon services for the most But the government says loc`l
authorities can raise more loney from the council tax to spend
on the care system. Caring for those who need it,
the mark of a compassionate society. Hal is autistic and has
a learning disability. But the future of his care
is still undecided and the Both Cumbria County
Council and the NHS are involved, but neither
would comment on the case. I think there are massive
staff shortages. It is affecting those
who are vulnerable. People like Kyle can't even
do their own shopping. I have got a little
bit of confidence. I have been fighting for hil
since he was three years old. Adult social care is mainly
funded by local councils. So, what is the picture
in our region? Cumbria County Council
is trying to save ?24 million Durham Council is consulting on
savings of ?12.5 million next year. Newcastle Council is trying to cut
over ?18 million over four xears. And Cleveland is saving
?6.5 million over four years. This is a huge challenge
for county councils. Not only have they been havhng
to cope with government cuts over the past six years,
which have been very severe, but you also have an ageing
population and you are also having to increase staffing costs
because of the introduction of So, it is a massive challenge,
but we cannot let down the most vulnerable
people in our society. We did ask the Care Minister
to take part in the He did send us
a statement, pointing out that councils can now incre`se
funds for social care But where savings are being made,
it is not easy for those affected to always
understand what is going on. Any changes whatsoever
have an impact on carers. The consultations are quite
difficult to read through and I think they sometimes
do lack a bit of explanation as to how they have
come to these decisions. Cumbria County Council
declined to be interviewed. It did say it had been transparent
in publicising a wide range of saving options
with the public. There is now a consultation
in Cumbria about closing care homes and, across the system,
there is a lot of uncertainty. What is going to happen?
What is going to happen to him? When ministers talk about council 's
raising more money by incre`sing council tax, they are always been
faced with these huge cuts. Counsels us for greater fundraising powers.
This 2% increase in council tax That allows them to raise money But
the also have to look at how they run individual councils. In
Northumberland, they are pl`nning to spend ?50 million a new centre. But
you know it would not make ` difference to the social care
budget. It is a different p`rt of money. You cannot have a situation
Priya Northumberland is continually in debt and chooses to go bty
shopping centres. You cannot do that and then say, you can have the %
and run it in a better way. But this is councils across the north-east.
We all recognise there is a problem with the National Health Service and
social services not integrating in a better way. Successive governments
have addressed this with grdater and more difficulty. There are dxamples
of integrated systems. That is the way forward. When you bring the two
services together. When things come under one roof, as they do hn
Manchester, that is a success story. Councils will get that extr` money
from council tax. The government is recognising it as an issue `nd
dealing with it? One of the difficulties of the option of
raising council tax, you max get punished, an election. Therd is an
issue there. There are two other things. One is the bigger phcture.
Labour do not cause the recdssion, the Conservatives did not c`use a
recession. When there is a shortage of money, when we have the lowest
borrowing rates. The governlent should be borrowing. So, more
borrowing, for more money at this? No, not at all. We talk abott this
year after year. What has this got to do with the vulnerable pdople
that the councils may well be choosing to spend money on other
things? Do the big infrastrtcture projects, employ more peopld we have
got high unemployment here, more money for taxes, more for the
government to hand out. Less austerity. That is not a short-term
solution. These cuts to sochal care, is that not the root of the problem.
It is very short-sighted because it puts dwarf strain on hospit`ls. If
you spent more than social care you make is to help ease the burden on
the National Health Service. We want social care and hospitals to work
hand in glove. Take Manchester. They have come together to address this
problem. Is it all about throwing more money on a system? No,. You
have got the ability through raising council tax to adopt ?241 mhllion to
the system. Whatever you thhnk about the economic future, this is not the
way to handle this. We are doing is taking money away here meanhng we
have to spend more on the N`tional Health Service. Elderly people are
falling down all because thdy are falling down all because thdy are
not that the key of the need, the ending up in hospital for long
periods of time. They could have been staying or for a relathvely
small amount of money. Now, normally at this point
in the programme we bring you 6 Seconds ? our round-up
of the week s political news. But this week, we thought
you would enjoy something a little bit different -
a light-hearted moment from the Commons, as the MP
for Bishop Auckland, Helen Goodman, considered
the important issues of light pollution, Brexit and,
erm, the problems of mating birds. Light pollution is not just
a problem for those wanting It is also confusing for birds,
who get confused as to when They sing for so long
that they do not have any I am sure the minister
will understand I wish to hear the Honourable
lady, at such point that she has the opportunitx
to regain the necessary composure! From birds to big cats now,
In particular, this beast, which in case you do not recognise
it, is a Eurasian Lynx. It has been suggested that five
pairs of them could be rele`sed into the wild at Kielder
forest in Northumberland. It is an idea that's
not gone down very well with farmers and the local LP,
who has called the idea "cr`zy" I like cats. What is wrong with the
lynx? This is a lot bigger than a domestic cat and it happens to eat
sheep, attack other animals. Every farmer Ray spoken to thinks it is a
terrible idea. -- you have surveyed everyone? I have sent letters to 400
people in that district. They were here a hundred ye`rs ago.
What are we going to do next, introduce dinosaurs? It is hard to
be a farmer when they are bding told that we are going to reintroduce
lynx, so look forward to losing your sheep. I am more open-minded about
this. They are having a major consultation about this. It is not a
decision which will be taken lightly. There is an opinion poll
that 90% of people think th`t it is a good idea. Not in my district
they do not. People living hn London came to see these sort of things.
But they actually have a vidw. Taxpayers down there are subsidising
the rural areas. So they ard entitled to the queue. We do not
believe in large cats terrorising local populations!
And that is about it from us for this week.
Barely more than a week now until polling day,
and a new revelation rocks the US Presidential election campaign.
If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just got more bizarre.
The FBI have reopened their investigation into Hillary Clinton's
use of private email servers whilst she was Secretary
of State, after the discovery of further emails.
Though not on her laptop or even the State Department.
Donald Trump is saying that it's bigger than Watergate -
so could it swing the election in his favour?
We spoke to top US pollster, Frank Luntz.
The FBI investigation is happening so late in the election process
that it would be very difficult to derail a Clinton victory.
That said, if there is one thing that could keep Hillary Clinton
from the presidency, it's an FBI investigation.
But there's still only four states that really matter, Florida, Ohio,
Right now, Clinton has beyond the margin of error leads
This would have to have a truly significant impact for the election
There is a point about a week ago when I was prepared to say that
Clinton had a 95% chance of winning this election.
Based on what has happened in the last 48 hours,
It is still very likely, but I wouldn't bet on it.
I thought the 2000 election would be the best election of my lifetime,
And then I thought 2008 would be amazing, because we had two
challenger candidates and the first African-American President.
It is ugly, it's painful, it is as negative as anything
The public is angry, the country, overall, is frustrated.
But for entertainment value, these candidates probably should
have charged us money, because it's better than any movie
at ever seen, it's better than any TV show.
That was Frank Luntz. He may be right or wrong about Mrs Clinton
still having an 80% chance of winning. I would bet on an 80%
chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to a high-profile American pollster and
strategist last night and he took a rather different view to Frank
Luntz. He thought, and I think some other high-profile commentators
agree, that this is actually much more serious than some people
realise. There are an awful lot of undecided voters out there looking
for an excuse to vote Trump. They do not like what they see in either
candidate. But because this FBI probe is not going to conclude
before the election, the question, the doubt over Hillary Clinton,
gives them an excuse to back Trump. The thing that will play on the
minds of the voters is, could the 100 day honeymoon turning to the 100
day divorce? Which even be impeached? It may give some people
an excuse not to vote for Mrs Clinton. It could provide a problem
in terms of energising her base The battle ground almost matters more
than the polls. Florida and Pennsylvania have been trending to
Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win both. He does not get in without
both. He needs both. Just coming up in the latest BBC News, the
Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs Clinton is now only one point ahead
in the national poll. One point Even given my caveat that the state
battles are most important. That is incredibly close? It is. Polls
yesterday showed Trump nationally closing of. -- up. There is a clear
trend and movement. This has reinforced everything that people
who have a problem with Hillary Clinton know about Hillary Clinton.
Trump is running this insurgent campaign. We have seen at here with
Brexit. If you are running an insurgent campaign, you want to be
against the ultimate establishment insider and that is what Hillary
Clinton is. I suggested it was bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of
the FBI is interesting as well. This is a separate investigation into a
former congressman, Anthony Wiener, who had done all sorts of things. He
seemed to be sex text thing a minor. A 15-year-old girl. The FBI
investigate. They get his laptop to see what else he has been too. In
the course of that, his wife, now separated, the closest adviser to
Hillary Clinton, they find on the laptop e-mails involving the Clinton
server to her. And yet the FBI cannot, it needs now a separate
warrant to access these e-mails It hasn't got that yet. It has got a
warrant to do the congressman e-mails. On the basis of not knowing
the content, this has happened. Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican,
this guy. Earlier this year he was being praised to the hilt by
Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is a nightmare for her. You described
the whole sequence. There is nothing definitive to doubt in this
sequence. All he is saying is he has discovered more e-mails in effect.
They are from the congressman's former wife. On Anthony Wiener's
laptop, which apparently she used sometimes. But what that shows is
that for all the scrutiny of modern politicians, they cannot escape
caricature. And as Tim was just saying, her weakness is perceived to
be secretive, elitism and complacency about that elitism. And
so just the announcement of a reopening of the investigation so
fuels that caricature, you have just revealed a poll giving her a 1%
lead. That must be related to what has happened. It is without a shred
of evidence that she has done anything wrong. You can see how
because people only see things encourage kids, that is deadly
serious. -- in caricature. An American friend of mine said we have
got our October surprise but we don't know what it is. The FBI must
surely come under massive pressure. It did its -- it did this against
the Justice Department. The difficulty the FBI had was that this
information, for what it's worth, it came to them. Were they not to have
said something and it worked to have come out later, they would have been
accused of a massive cover-up. They are dammed if they do, dammed if
they don't. There is still time for another surprise. And early November
surprise. Who knows if there might still be something that comes out on
Donald Trump? This is the first election where I can remember we
have had two October surprises already. There are is stuff about
tapes knocking around about Donald Trump saying racist things. The
Clintons have got a lot of friends. It would be a big surprise if we did
not see anything else in the next few days.
Just when you think it could not get more interesting, it has. There has
been plenty in the papers lately about the Ukip leadership saying
unpleasant things about each other. But what about Mr Farage himself?
What's he up to? Well, on BBC Two tonight we may
find out the answer. Well, I'm led to believe
she's very experienced. But I don't think Strictly Come
Dancing is for me. That is, unless, of course,
you fancy popping a cheeky zero No, I don't think Strictly
Come Dancing is for me. Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just
lost your programme one viewer. I might have nothing to do these
days but, realistically, Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It
is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel Farage gets his life back. A number
of runners and riders. Let's come straight down to it. Who would be
the next leader of Ukip? Probably Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite.
The one who has the backing, not very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim
Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a big donor. The best of a rather weak
lot. I think Paul Nuttall should squeak through. I interviewed all
three of them this week. Mr Cassandra is a lively character and
he knows how to make a few headlines. With a bit of money
behind him, anything is possible. This is a guy who has been to the
States, who has literally studied what Trump has done. Pees on
secondment for the time being. The guy who is his line manager is one
of Donald Trump's campaign stop He is extraordinarily right-wing. I am
told he kept a picture of Enoch Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater
is one of his heroes, for example. There are other candidates. I would
suggest, put out as a hypothesis, Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst
nightmare. They are more vulnerable in the North. Paul Nuttall is from
Merseyside, a working-class background, performs well on
television. He is a really good interviewee. He is one of the best
around in politics at the moment. However, I think whoever gets it has
a massive task. The clip of this Nigel Farage satire partly shows
why. His dominance was overwhelming. He, in many ways, did a brilliant
job at keeping the show on the road. The trouble for all new political
parties is keeping it going is tough. A very different party, the
SDP, with all those glamorous figures in it, lasted eight years,
something like that. I think they are in real trouble at the moment
because of the implosion we have been seeing in front of our eyes and
the ideal -- ideological splits Whoever gets it will face a tough
tussle. All three of the main contenders want to put Nigel Farage
in the House of Lords. They were falling over themselves to soak up
two farads. That is how you win this election.
Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting his money on? He said he supports
Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He
thinks it is terribly disorganised, dysfunctional and doesn't want a
great deal to do with it for the foreseeable future.
It is not quite Trump the Clinton but it is interesting. That is it.
The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. And all of next week. Jo Coburn will
be your next Sunday because I am off to the United States to begin to
rehearse presenting the BBC's US election night coverage on the th
of November. It will be here on BBC One, BBC
world, BBC News Channel and BBC online.
Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
A stone stained with blood and beset with a curse.
The Moonstone is of inestimable value in India.
Its appointed guardians would move heaven and earth to reclaim it
Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.
You've got to do something! It's only you that can!
He's a scientist, brilliant apparently.
But you may be bringing people over here who did things during the war.
I will not work for you. I will not work for the British Government
Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.
You've got to do something! It's only you that can!
Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by Iain Duncan Smith, Chi Onwurah and Haras Rafiq of the Quilliam Foundation. The Daily Mail's Isabel Oakeshott, commentator Steve Richards and Tim Shipman of The Sunday Times are on the political panel.