15/01/2017 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


15/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron MP, Max Mosley and Piers Morgan.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

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of the EU's single market and its customs union?

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We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:46.:00:48.

Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:49.:00:55.

As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:56.:00:58.

of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:00:59.:01:02.

Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:03.:01:08.

Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.

:01:09.:01:15.

In our region, Labour faces a by-election in Cumbria and

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And we speak exclusively to Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,

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as the Copeland campaigning gets underway.

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And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

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hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

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So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

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in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

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and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

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Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

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The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

:02:01.:02:04.

gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

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will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

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of the single market and customs union.

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The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

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they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

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The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

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hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

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And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

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explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

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and call for an end to free movement.

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Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

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I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

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most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

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But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

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that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

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the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

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the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

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basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

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with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

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stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:23.:03:25.

British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:26.:03:29.

ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:30.:03:33.

upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:34.:03:37.

position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

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and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

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it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

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the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

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believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

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resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

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Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:04.:04:08.

negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

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really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

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fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

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whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

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the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

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Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

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final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

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Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

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Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

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a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

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introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

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It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

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servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

:05:00.:05:03.

deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

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the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:08.:05:13.

Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

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You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

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jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

:05:20.:05:21.

of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

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it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

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good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

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that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

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nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

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best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

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that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

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union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

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package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

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better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

:05:59.:06:02.

travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

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Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

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and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

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the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

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believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

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for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:22.:06:28.

ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

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continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:32.:06:36.

what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

:06:37.:06:40.

Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

:06:41.:06:44.

membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:45.:06:46.

amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

:06:47.:06:53.

believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

:06:54.:06:56.

I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:06:57.:07:00.

people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

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individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

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your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

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freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

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Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

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don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

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without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

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depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:33.:07:35.

white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

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flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

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corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

:07:44.:07:47.

that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

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members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:54.:07:59.

of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

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many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

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you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

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aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

:08:11.:08:13.

that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

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very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

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in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

:08:22.:08:25.

answer to my question, you haven't answered it

:08:26.:08:31.

the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:32.:08:36.

deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

:08:37.:08:41.

right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

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you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

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afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

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The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

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Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

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the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:07.:09:10.

of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:11.:09:14.

only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

:09:15.:09:17.

for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:18.:09:23.

that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

:09:24.:09:28.

migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:29.:09:31.

that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:32.:09:34.

is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:35.:09:37.

customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

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clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

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don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

:09:46.:09:48.

definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

:09:49.:09:56.

is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

:09:57.:09:58.

somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

:09:59.:10:01.

hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

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option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:07.:10:09.

personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

:10:10.:10:12.

We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

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on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

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reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

:10:26.:10:29.

possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

:10:30.:10:32.

David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

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Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

:10:37.:10:41.

are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

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rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

:10:46.:10:52.

arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:53.:10:55.

encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:10:56.:10:59.

deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:11:00.:11:03.

service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:04.:11:07.

this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

:11:08.:11:11.

you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

:11:12.:11:14.

years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:15.:11:20.

to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

:11:21.:11:23.

would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:24.:11:28.

What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:29.:11:33.

of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:34.:11:36.

machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:37.:11:42.

pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:43.:11:46.

you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:47.:11:51.

Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:52.:11:57.

European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:11:58.:12:01.

of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:12:02.:12:05.

these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:06.:12:09.

intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:10.:12:12.

what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:13.:12:17.

Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:18.:12:20.

markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:21.:12:24.

doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:25.:12:28.

it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

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Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

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week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

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enact a controversial piece of legislation.

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Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

:12:39.:12:40.

could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:41.:12:43.

If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:44.:12:53.

The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

:12:54.:12:55.

while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:56.:12:58.

a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:59.:12:59.

Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:13:00.:13:05.

It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

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a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:10.:13:14.

They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:15.:13:17.

It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:18.:13:20.

a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:21.:13:29.

and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:30.:13:33.

which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:34.:13:34.

If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

:13:35.:13:37.

that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

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like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:39.:13:41.

To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

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the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

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publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

:13:52.:13:54.

costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

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It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

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We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

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This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:06.:14:08.

of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

:14:09.:14:13.

from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:14.:14:17.

It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:18.:14:22.

I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

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you have an incomplete Leveson project.

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I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:30.:14:32.

there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:33.:14:35.

standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

:14:36.:14:37.

"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:38.:14:40.

Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:41.:14:43.

We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:44.:14:51.

for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:52.:14:53.

They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:54.:14:56.

from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:57.:14:58.

a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:14:59.:15:07.

Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:08.:15:10.

Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:11.:15:15.

the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:16.:15:18.

doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:19.:15:24.

The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:25.:15:27.

There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:28.:15:29.

won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:30.:15:32.

are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:33.:15:36.

Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:37.:15:39.

through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:40.:15:40.

Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:41.:15:43.

when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:44.:15:46.

If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:47.:15:53.

we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:54.:15:58.

The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:15:59.:16:01.

since the Government launched its consultation

:16:02.:16:02.

In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

:16:03.:16:05.

And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:06.:16:10.

a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:11.:16:14.

The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:15.:16:17.

One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:18.:16:23.

So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:24.:16:25.

I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:26.:16:34.

What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:35.:16:37.

on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:38.:16:42.

was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:43.:16:45.

regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:46.:16:48.

which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:49.:16:53.

then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:54.:16:57.

case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:58.:16:59.

The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:17:00.:17:04.

I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:05.:17:07.

about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:08.:17:11.

to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:12.:17:14.

But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:15.:17:17.

I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:18.:17:27.

Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:28.:17:30.

and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:31.:17:34.

Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:35.:17:43.

that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:44.:17:47.

press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:48.:17:52.

we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:53.:17:56.

into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:57.:18:00.

absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:18:01.:18:05.

like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:06.:18:10.

hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:11.:18:11.

means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:12.:18:39.

many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:40.:18:41.

does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:42.:18:43.

You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:44.:18:46.

People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:47.:18:49.

from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:50.:18:52.

but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:53.:18:56.

money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:18:57.:19:02.

from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:03.:19:06.

the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:07.:19:11.

because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:12.:19:14.

most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:15.:19:24.

the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:25.:19:29.

influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:30.:19:35.

lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:36.:19:40.

historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:41.:19:49.

family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:50.:19:53.

control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:54.:19:58.

the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:19:59.:20:02.

completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:03.:20:08.

wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:09.:20:12.

because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:13.:20:18.

curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:19.:20:22.

press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:23.:20:28.

Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:29.:20:33.

is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:34.:20:40.

tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:41.:20:46.

advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:47.:20:52.

Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:53.:20:57.

be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:58.:21:01.

press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:21:02.:21:05.

reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:06.:21:10.

selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:11.:21:12.

absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:13.:21:17.

Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:18.:21:22.

remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:23.:21:28.

He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:29.:21:34.

the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:35.:21:43.

do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:44.:21:59.

code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:22:00.:22:05.

be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:06.:22:09.

against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:10.:22:14.

wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:15.:22:20.

I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:21.:22:31.

wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:32.:22:39.

Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:40.:22:43.

people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:44.:22:47.

but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:48.:22:54.

have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:55.:22:57.

about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:22:58.:23:03.

possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:04.:23:09.

asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:10.:23:15.

the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:16.:23:20.

some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:21.:23:27.

the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:28.:23:31.

newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:32.:23:37.

enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:38.:23:41.

their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:42.:23:48.

they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:49.:23:57.

won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:23:58.:24:07.

fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:08.:24:11.

relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:12.:24:16.

The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:17.:24:20.

against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:21.:24:24.

understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:25.:24:30.

boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:31.:24:37.

Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:38.:24:46.

Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:47.:24:55.

would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:56.:25:00.

compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:25:01.:25:05.

papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:06.:25:09.

they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:10.:25:16.

regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:17.:25:20.

own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:21.:25:25.

one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:26.:25:30.

expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:31.:25:33.

the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:34.:25:38.

either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:39.:25:43.

approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:44.:25:55.

independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:25:56.:26:04.

a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:05.:26:08.

Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:09.:26:11.

to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:12.:26:15.

have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:16.:26:18.

expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:19.:26:24.

which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:25.:26:28.

up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:29.:26:32.

potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:33.:26:40.

the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:41.:26:46.

the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:47.:26:53.

it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:54.:26:56.

journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:57.:27:01.

scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:02.:27:05.

that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:06.:27:12.

equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:13.:27:16.

judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:17.:27:21.

saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:22.:27:26.

should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:27.:27:32.

is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:33.:27:36.

what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:37.:27:42.

something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:43.:27:47.

happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:48.:27:50.

circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:51.:27:54.

that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:55.:27:58.

because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:27:59.:28:03.

That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:04.:28:08.

newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:09.:28:14.

Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:15.:28:20.

outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:21.:28:23.

bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:24.:28:27.

the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:28.:28:36.

guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:37.:28:40.

The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:41.:28:45.

somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:46.:28:49.

can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:50.:28:53.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:54.:28:55.

has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:56.:28:57.

The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:58.:29:01.

open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:29:02.:29:04.

The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:05.:29:06.

It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:07.:29:10.

had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:11.:29:12.

At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:13.:29:18.

or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:19.:29:20.

On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:21.:29:26.

that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:27.:29:29.

But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:30.:29:37.

He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:38.:29:39.

On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:40.:29:44.

to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:45.:29:47.

paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:48.:29:52.

On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:53.:29:56.

told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:57.:30:01.

And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:02.:30:05.

The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:06.:30:09.

was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:10.:30:13.

And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:14.:30:16.

46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:17.:30:23.

Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:24.:30:27.

opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:28.:30:31.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:32.:30:38.

MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:39.:30:40.

life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:41.:30:43.

Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:44.:30:53.

saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:54.:30:58.

enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:30:59.:31:01.

think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:02.:31:05.

have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:06.:31:10.

still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:11.:31:14.

GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:15.:31:19.

an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:20.:31:24.

is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:25.:31:28.

cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:29.:31:31.

wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:32.:31:35.

forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:36.:31:39.

to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:40.:31:48.

A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:49.:31:51.

play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:52.:31:54.

patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:55.:31:57.

by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:58.:32:01.

hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:02.:32:05.

Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:06.:32:10.

shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:11.:32:15.

or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:16.:32:18.

physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:19.:32:26.

most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:27.:32:30.

don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:31.:32:34.

working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:35.:32:37.

profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:38.:32:43.

Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:44.:32:50.

half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:51.:32:53.

of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:54.:32:57.

working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:32:58.:33:02.

not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:03.:33:06.

working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:07.:33:09.

if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:10.:33:13.

the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:14.:33:20.

out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:21.:33:22.

runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:23.:33:25.

contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:26.:33:30.

tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:31.:33:35.

the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:36.:33:37.

this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:38.:33:41.

practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:42.:33:46.

there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:47.:33:52.

are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:53.:33:55.

offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:56.:33:58.

they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:33:59.:34:03.

saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:04.:34:07.

one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:08.:34:11.

keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:12.:34:15.

should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:16.:34:19.

their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:20.:34:25.

upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:26.:34:30.

highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:31.:34:34.

the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:35.:34:40.

don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:41.:34:44.

enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:45.:34:48.

practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:49.:34:53.

advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:54.:34:57.

need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:34:58.:35:02.

short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:03.:35:06.

associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:07.:35:10.

practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:11.:35:13.

junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:14.:35:18.

this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:19.:35:21.

system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:22.:35:27.

1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:28.:35:32.

with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:33.:35:37.

when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:38.:35:41.

that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:42.:35:45.

where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:46.:35:49.

saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:50.:35:53.

services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:54.:35:56.

follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:57.:36:00.

it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:36:01.:36:03.

station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:04.:36:08.

it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:09.:36:15.

recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:16.:36:17.

haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:18.:36:21.

them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:22.:36:24.

professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:25.:36:27.

what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:28.:36:31.

you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:32.:36:36.

the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:37.:36:40.

patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:41.:36:43.

lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:44.:36:49.

necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:50.:36:53.

up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:54.:36:57.

things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:58.:37:00.

doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:37:01.:37:03.

empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:04.:37:08.

We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:09.:37:12.

our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:13.:37:16.

general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:17.:37:20.

wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:21.:37:24.

lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:25.:37:28.

We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:29.:37:31.

subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:32.:37:33.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:34.:37:36.

in Scotland, who leave us now Hello and the warmest of welcomes

:37:37.:37:38.

to your local part of the show and 2017 is already shaping up to be

:37:39.:37:59.

full of political drama again. As by-elections are in the offings,

:38:00.:38:02.

Jeremy Corbyn has been talking exclusively to us

:38:03.:38:05.

about the one his party is facing We are also reporting

:38:06.:38:07.

on the upcoming contest they'll face to be first elective mayor

:38:08.:38:10.

of the Tees Valley. With me here in the studio is North

:38:11.:38:19.

Tyneside Conservative Councillor, Judith Wallace, and in London,

:38:20.:38:22.

the Labour MP for Stockton Let's start with that

:38:23.:38:24.

by-election in Copeland caused Let's start with that by-election

:38:25.:38:31.

in Copland caused by the resignation of MP Jamie Reid is going to work

:38:32.:38:33.

in community Labour is defending a narrow

:38:34.:38:36.

majority is so it's going to be Labour has held Copeland

:38:37.:38:41.

and the previous Whitehaven seat since 1930s but recent boundary

:38:42.:38:44.

changes and a declining labour vote When Jamie Reid retained the seat

:38:45.:38:47.

in 2015, the Labour majority over the Conservatives was just 2564,

:38:48.:38:50.

making it one of the most marginal It's a constituency

:38:51.:38:53.

that is dominated by Sellafield and the new power station is also

:38:54.:39:01.

planned at Moorside stop and the new power station is also

:39:02.:39:09.

planned at Moorside. The Tories will want to make much

:39:10.:39:12.

of Jeremy Corbyn's past opposition More than six in ten voting

:39:13.:39:15.

to leave the EU last year But Labour will hope

:39:16.:39:20.

the NHS is their trump card because of public concern

:39:21.:39:23.

about the future of services Hardly surprising that two

:39:24.:39:25.

on the short list to be Labour's candidate are at the forefront

:39:26.:39:29.

of the Hospital campaign. Former Cumbrian woman of the year,

:39:30.:39:32.

Rachel Holliday, is one of them. The other, County Councillor

:39:33.:39:36.

and surgeon, Gillian Troutman. The ex-Penrith and border

:39:37.:39:38.

candidate, Barbara Cannon, Jamie Reid begins his new role

:39:39.:39:39.

at Sellafield on February first. But Labour may want to delay poll

:39:40.:39:47.

to local election day in May. Copeland contains England's highest

:39:48.:39:50.

mountain and deepest lake. Labour will be intent on making

:39:51.:39:52.

sure they don't face Tristan Hunt is triggering the Stoke

:39:53.:39:55.

by-election this week. This is a major test

:39:56.:39:59.

for your party now. Both contests, you have

:40:00.:40:02.

to win, don't you? There are tough contests in both

:40:03.:40:04.

Copeland and in Stoke but we are confident

:40:05.:40:08.

that the messages we have on the health services,

:40:09.:40:10.

jobs and on investment, we believe the people

:40:11.:40:13.

will respond to the Labour Party Most parliaments, and opposition

:40:14.:40:15.

defending their seats, Isn't this a sign of a party,

:40:16.:40:21.

to lose Jamie Reid and Tristan Hunt, two very talented, bright people,

:40:22.:40:27.

held important positions in the party in the past,

:40:28.:40:34.

they have decided there are better but the important thing for us

:40:35.:40:40.

is to secure the Labour MP for Copeland to ensure

:40:41.:40:46.

we can defend the NHS, look after the hospital

:40:47.:40:48.

that is under threat, the hospital where they're

:40:49.:40:57.

going to lose their maternity unit. They're going to lose

:40:58.:40:59.

the maternity unit there and... They are calculating

:41:00.:41:02.

that there is no chance of a Labour They still need people to defend

:41:03.:41:05.

the services there and Jamie Reid and many others that have worked

:41:06.:41:10.

hard to establish new services there, we've got to defend them

:41:11.:41:12.

rather than see them disintegrate. Judith Wallace, given recent

:41:13.:41:15.

polling, your party will be disappointed it didn't

:41:16.:41:17.

win in Copeland. The bookies have made

:41:18.:41:18.

you the favourites. Indeed so and I think it's

:41:19.:41:20.

absolutely astonishing that we've had not one,

:41:21.:41:22.

but two Labour MPs resign their seats and not that long

:41:23.:41:24.

after a general election. It wasn't long ago that

:41:25.:41:27.

a Conservative resigned, Well, it is unusual for them to be

:41:28.:41:29.

going on to other jobs and shows a distinct lack of confidence

:41:30.:41:34.

in their ability to retain their seats at the next election

:41:35.:41:36.

and the ability of the Labour Party I think it's most unlikely that

:41:37.:41:39.

Labour in its current shambles will hold the seats or former

:41:40.:41:46.

government in the future. You say you're going

:41:47.:41:49.

to winning Copeland, I think we have a very good record

:41:50.:41:50.

and I think people can see the shambles that the Labour Party

:41:51.:41:56.

is in at the moment and the economic We'll chat with the

:41:57.:41:59.

results as they happen. There's more to discuss

:42:00.:42:04.

because our correspondent, Luke Walton, has spoken

:42:05.:42:06.

to Jeremy Corbyn is weak and suggested that Copeland

:42:07.:42:08.

was a seat that Labour must win. We're going to be out

:42:09.:42:11.

there campaigning, we going to be We're going to be out

:42:12.:42:16.

there campaigning, we're going to be out there supporting the people

:42:17.:42:18.

of the whole area, addressing the issues of low wages,

:42:19.:42:21.

housing problems and crucially, the future of our National Health

:42:22.:42:23.

Service is and their problems and hospitals throughout Cumbria

:42:24.:42:26.

and other emergency services The people of Cumbria

:42:27.:42:28.

deserve a fair deal. Another big local issue

:42:29.:42:30.

there is the nuclear industry. Thousands of people

:42:31.:42:34.

in West Cumbria rely on that. You have spoken out over a long

:42:35.:42:36.

period against nuclear power. Doesn't that make you the Achilles

:42:37.:42:38.

heel of labour in that area? Sellafield is there,

:42:39.:42:42.

Sellafield employs a lot of people and it would be very helpful

:42:43.:42:45.

if they treated their pensioners properly and treated the pension

:42:46.:42:48.

fund properly as well. Those workers in Sellafield deserve

:42:49.:42:50.

a fair deal just like everybody else and we are working

:42:51.:42:53.

with them on that. You were on Conservative

:42:54.:42:57.

leaflets and your comments about decommissioning power stations

:42:58.:42:59.

is already making hay It is very odd that Conservative

:43:00.:43:03.

leaflet is so well funded, so beautifully produced

:43:04.:43:12.

and so expensive. Didn't find even that amount

:43:13.:43:14.

of space to say something about the National Health Service,

:43:15.:43:16.

about the crisis in I suggest to Conservatives,

:43:17.:43:19.

they are in government, As Prime Minister, would you approve

:43:20.:43:22.

a plan for a new nuclear power station next to Sellafield

:43:23.:43:29.

which 20,000 jobs rely on? Well, we're not sure when that's

:43:30.:43:33.

going to come up yet. That may have happened before

:43:34.:43:36.

the general election takes place. I want to see an energy mix

:43:37.:43:42.

in Britain, I want to see I don't know what the circumstances

:43:43.:43:45.

would be at that time. I've obviously been very concerned

:43:46.:43:52.

about nuclear safety as indeed has I want to see a safe nuclear system,

:43:53.:44:03.

I want to see a strong energy mix in Britain which other

:44:04.:44:09.

countries like Germany... So you don't rule out approving

:44:10.:44:10.

a new nuclear power station? Let's look at the issue

:44:11.:44:13.

when it comes up. I'll be all over Cumbria

:44:14.:44:16.

in the election campaign. Someone who is worried

:44:17.:44:21.

about your antinuclear stance is the departing MP,

:44:22.:44:25.

Jamie Reid. He's talked about you poisoning

:44:26.:44:26.

the Labour Party and not being fit I thanked him for his work and also

:44:27.:44:29.

admired the way he stood up, particularly for very isolated rural

:44:30.:44:41.

communities in his constituency. We had a very good discussion

:44:42.:44:44.

about the need for public investment in good quality,

:44:45.:44:46.

transport infrastructure, improvement of the rail

:44:47.:44:49.

line along the coast, improvement of the rail links,

:44:50.:44:52.

but also issues such as rural bus services such as communication

:44:53.:44:55.

with isolated communities and also post industrial communities,

:44:56.:44:57.

those people that used to work Jamie's voices Jamie's

:44:58.:44:59.

responsibility. I'm happy to have those

:45:00.:45:20.

discussions with him. We've had some good discussions

:45:21.:45:24.

about these issues. We want to see a country where

:45:25.:45:26.

communities are not left behind, where people don't end up forever

:45:27.:45:29.

on zero hours contracts and low-paid jobs, where young people

:45:30.:45:32.

can get into college, can go to university and can get

:45:33.:45:35.

the apprenticeships they deserve. Jeremy Corbyn talking

:45:36.:45:38.

to Luke Walton there. Alex, we know Jeremy Corbyn has been

:45:39.:45:39.

against nuclear power as long That could be a source of disaster

:45:40.:45:41.

in a constituency where the nuclear We believe in a thorough

:45:42.:45:48.

energy mix and nuclear We have been very clear

:45:49.:45:57.

in stressing this. Jeremy said he believes

:45:58.:46:00.

in the mix that is necessary and we will continue to have nuclear

:46:01.:46:02.

power in the mix. We're not going to do anything

:46:03.:46:05.

at all that's going to jeopardise thousands of jobs in West Cumbria

:46:06.:46:08.

and across the county where people are paid good wages,

:46:09.:46:11.

very good wages in many cases and we don't want to

:46:12.:46:13.

see any of that lost. He said he will make a decision

:46:14.:46:21.

about that at the time. If he's a man of principle,

:46:22.:46:25.

why doesn't he tell us he wouldn't sanction a nuclear power station

:46:26.:46:28.

because he doesn't believe in it instead of trying to fudge

:46:29.:46:31.

the issue and try and pretend It was a Labour government that

:46:32.:46:33.

approved the plans for a power Very different Labour Party

:46:34.:46:38.

from now, perhaps. There may be some different people

:46:39.:46:42.

around and we have a different leader and he's got to determine

:46:43.:46:45.

exactly what the situation is, if he is called

:46:46.:46:47.

to make that decision. I hope there is going to be no

:46:48.:46:50.

further delay and we can get those jobs there that can get this power

:46:51.:46:54.

station built and the benefits can Judith Wallace, the reason you want

:46:55.:46:57.

this by-election is you don't want to talk about the NHS

:46:58.:47:03.

because their problems with the hospital that are mirrored

:47:04.:47:07.

in hospitals all around the region. That's why you want

:47:08.:47:13.

to avoid it, isn't it? There is an indication

:47:14.:47:15.

that the Prime Minister is looking at the situation in Cumbria

:47:16.:47:18.

and the NHS is under pressure. Some of the problems in A come

:47:19.:47:21.

about because people misused A My local newspaper is reporting

:47:22.:47:24.

they have had cases of going I think Labour, by removing from GPs

:47:25.:47:26.

the out-of-hours services, We know about the threat

:47:27.:47:34.

of the consultant led maternity services there,

:47:35.:47:47.

we know women in difficult labours can face a 40 mile trip in order

:47:48.:47:51.

to get to an alternative hospital. These decisions are made

:47:52.:47:53.

by the local health trust, They are everything to do

:47:54.:47:56.

with the government. Ultimately the health service

:47:57.:48:00.

reports to the government they should be getting their fingers

:48:01.:48:01.

out and saying, "That maternity unit is safe,

:48:02.:48:04.

that A is safe and the people of West Cumbria can rest

:48:05.:48:08.

assured the NHS is safe." As David Cameron said,

:48:09.:48:11.

it is in the Tory's hands. It is cynical to put out a leaflet

:48:12.:48:13.

which talks about nuclear power and doesn't address what is a big

:48:14.:48:19.

issue in West Cumbria I think having heard

:48:20.:48:26.

what Jeremy Corbyn had to say on that tape,

:48:27.:48:31.

it's no wonder the Labour Party want to postpone this by-election

:48:32.:48:34.

until May which would leave the local people without any

:48:35.:48:36.

representation whilst It is worrying that Jeremy Corbyn

:48:37.:48:38.

wants nuclear facilities That would have a massive effect

:48:39.:48:42.

for this constituency and a disastrous affect

:48:43.:48:52.

for the security of the country. Alex, you quit Labour's front bench

:48:53.:48:55.

with many others because you had no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn,

:48:56.:49:00.

that he wasn't fit Are you any more convinced

:49:01.:49:01.

that he could be the man to hold on and win voters over

:49:02.:49:05.

in Copland and Stockton? I have been enjoying

:49:06.:49:09.

Prime Minister's Question Time. We have seen Jeremy Corbyn wipe

:49:10.:49:15.

the floor with Theresa May. It doesn't matter what the subject

:49:16.:49:18.

is, he's actually putting forward the arguments and most of those

:49:19.:49:20.

are in social care, around our NHS. He has been getting that message

:49:21.:49:24.

across and it has been So you reverse your

:49:25.:49:27.

opinion from the summer. I believe certainly that

:49:28.:49:30.

Jeremy Corbyn will lead us into the election and we will win

:49:31.:49:34.

that election because we've got ideas, we talked

:49:35.:49:37.

about the nationalisation of the railway system which has

:49:38.:49:39.

tremendous public support. We have talked about ensuring jobs

:49:40.:49:43.

are advertised in this country rather than abroad,

:49:44.:49:46.

we can build an opportunity Judith, you can be smug

:49:47.:49:49.

about Labour's current poll ratings. There's a danger is making

:49:50.:49:56.

you complacent on that There will be no extra money for

:49:57.:49:58.

the and Theresa May is in denial. We know the NHS receives billions

:49:59.:50:08.

and billions of pounds and it is right and proper that

:50:09.:50:16.

local people should Local decisions are made

:50:17.:50:19.

by the local trust. There is medical profession

:50:20.:50:21.

after medical professional saying you're not doing enough and this

:50:22.:50:23.

is a huge crisis. The NHS were constantly told

:50:24.:50:26.

as the envy of the world yet know other country chooses

:50:27.:50:41.

to have the same system. We have to be looking

:50:42.:50:43.

at the outcomes which are being Headlines made for the wrong

:50:44.:50:45.

reasons, I suppose. You know your constituency,

:50:46.:50:50.

will the people of Stockton North know what their immigration

:50:51.:50:52.

policy is now? I would hope so because we spent

:50:53.:50:54.

quite a bit of time on the streets of Stockton talking

:50:55.:50:57.

to people about that. We believe that we've got to protect

:50:58.:50:59.

jobs into the long term, we got to make sure that there

:51:00.:51:04.

is still the skills In favour of freedom

:51:05.:51:07.

of movement or not? I think it's no longer

:51:08.:51:09.

really an issue. The British people have made it

:51:10.:51:11.

clear that they do not believe They don't believe in it but we've

:51:12.:51:14.

got to make sure the government do their best for our country

:51:15.:51:19.

and if we require some form of movement of people across the EU,

:51:20.:51:21.

we've got to have that in order to secure the markers

:51:22.:51:25.

that we require. Judith, this is a man

:51:26.:51:26.

of principle on immigration. Your party promised action

:51:27.:51:29.

and never delivered. We have no idea what

:51:30.:51:33.

Jeremy Corbyn's policy is. The speech this week

:51:34.:51:36.

was supposed to clear that up. You promised on it and never

:51:37.:51:38.

delivered it on immigration. The only way we can deliver on it is

:51:39.:51:43.

by leaving the European Union. I've always been very

:51:44.:51:47.

clear about that. As we leave the European Union,

:51:48.:51:48.

Theresa May has been clear we will regain control

:51:49.:51:51.

of our borders and that is what will happen,

:51:52.:51:53.

commencing is important to people. The by-elections in Copland

:51:54.:51:57.

and Stoke aren't the only big tests for the parties coming up

:51:58.:52:00.

in the next few months. Campaigning will soon get underway

:52:01.:52:02.

in the contest to choose the first-ever mayor of the Tees

:52:03.:52:05.

Valley. Could one person represent an area

:52:06.:52:06.

that includes not just Middlesbrough and Stockton but also Darlington,

:52:07.:52:09.

Hartlepool and Redcar also. David McMillan took a tour around

:52:10.:52:12.

Teesside to find out. It stretches from the North Sea

:52:13.:52:16.

to North Yorkshire stop 670,000 people in a city region

:52:17.:52:20.

with five different centres. Industrial, post-industrial

:52:21.:52:23.

and occasionally rural. These offices in Stockton

:52:24.:52:29.

where Tees Valley's But he or she will have a joint task

:52:30.:52:31.

on their hands creating growth and prosperity across a large

:52:32.:52:41.

and diverse region. Four parties have identified people

:52:42.:52:43.

they believe can do just that. The local Councillor

:52:44.:52:45.

is their candidate. There is a thread when it

:52:46.:52:53.

comes to transport and Being from the area,

:52:54.:52:55.

I have a good understanding of how My key drive is not to be looking

:52:56.:53:00.

at what is great for the suburbs of Yarm because if Stockton

:53:01.:53:12.

succeeds, Middlesbrough, Redcar, Hartlepool and

:53:13.:53:14.

Darlington all succeed. South Barton near

:53:15.:53:16.

Middlesbrough is one of many It is suffering in the

:53:17.:53:17.

post-industrial age. Hugh Jeffrey, the leader of Redcar

:53:18.:53:20.

and Cleveland Council says the closure of SSI shows how closely

:53:21.:53:22.

linked the Tees Valley It didn't just affect Redcar,

:53:23.:53:25.

it affected all five It is not going to be

:53:26.:53:28.

about fighting each other, it's going to be about working

:53:29.:53:36.

together, being pragmatic and working to deliver the goals

:53:37.:53:38.

we have the Tees Valley which is and growing our jobs,

:53:39.:53:40.

economy, a proven skills. North of Stockton, their rural

:53:41.:53:42.

partnerships which contrasts sharply with the traditional image

:53:43.:53:46.

of Teesside the north-east party's John Tait, says they can make sharp

:53:47.:53:48.

contrast with the region's Transport will enliven

:53:49.:53:51.

the whole area. Railways, roads, we need proper

:53:52.:53:57.

ambition on how to put a transport infrastructure that is not fiddling

:53:58.:54:00.

with the past but is ambitious and looks towards the future

:54:01.:54:03.

and spreads prosperity Hartlepool is Ukip's

:54:04.:54:05.

strongest race on Teesside. John Tennant is that

:54:06.:54:15.

prospective candidate Andy has We're looking at the possibility of

:54:16.:54:19.

bringing back the Tees Valley Metro system which was shelved

:54:20.:54:26.

a few years ago. It will cost a lot of money to build

:54:27.:54:29.

and we will have to find that money but you need a maypr who's

:54:30.:54:37.

going to fight for the right We would expect the politicians

:54:38.:54:40.

to insist that they can find unity and harmony to bring five distinct

:54:41.:54:43.

areas together but one local journalist thinks they may be

:54:44.:54:46.

underestimating the challenge. There is no natural empathy

:54:47.:54:49.

with the concept of Tees Valley. Teesside is Middlesbrough

:54:50.:54:51.

and Stockton and I don't think Darlington as a town wants to be

:54:52.:54:53.

part of that. It's an artificial construct

:54:54.:55:07.

and the mayor has got to create a region for them

:55:08.:55:09.

to be the figurehead. The Lib Dems expect to name

:55:10.:55:19.

their mayoral candidate at the start of February and there's still plenty

:55:20.:55:22.

of time for others to join the race. The challenge for whoever becomes

:55:23.:55:25.

the first Tees Valley Mayor is to make their new devolved powers

:55:26.:55:28.

work to the benefit of every corner Alex, if you ask people

:55:29.:55:31.

in Stockton where they live, they wouldn't say they lived

:55:32.:55:34.

in the Tees Valley. It will be a tough sell to convince

:55:35.:55:36.

voters that what is good for Hartlepool is also good

:55:37.:55:39.

for Stockton and Middlesbrough. I have been very impressed

:55:40.:55:42.

with the way our five local authorities have

:55:43.:55:44.

worked closely together. They work hard and while other

:55:45.:55:46.

authorities were falling about about creating deals to work

:55:47.:55:49.

with the government to bring prosperity to the area,

:55:50.:55:52.

our area was working I am confident there may

:55:53.:55:54.

be a weird construct, people will work hard together,

:55:55.:56:03.

they will deliver for the whole Fine for councils to operate,

:56:04.:56:07.

but it doesn't need an election Voters will say, "Why am

:56:08.:56:13.

I being called out to do this?" This is an opportunity the

:56:14.:56:25.

Conservatives have given local authorities to take powers from

:56:26.:56:28.

Whitehall and get the money that goes with them. There was no

:56:29.:56:34.

compulsion to take part. Full marks for driving this policy on. Full

:56:35.:56:40.

marks to the local authorities in Tees Valley to take up the

:56:41.:56:44.

opportunity. They decide the geographic boundaries and the

:56:45.:56:51.

powers. There will be deals. More money and more powers. They can get

:56:52.:56:57.

more money if they are successful in driving economic growth. It is sad

:56:58.:57:01.

further north in the region, the Labour leaders and elected mayor

:57:02.:57:05.

have not been able to reach agreements. The danger is this

:57:06.:57:11.

election could raise expectations that cannot be delivered. The Tees

:57:12.:57:17.

Valley Metro, the money is not there to achieve that. Candidates cannot

:57:18.:57:25.

deliver. There will be uneconomic mayor and we will have the

:57:26.:57:28.

development corporation who have a good record of driving growth. More

:57:29.:57:34.

more growth, an opportunity to have more money from the government to

:57:35.:57:40.

extend the powers. We are talking about adult skills, infrastructure

:57:41.:57:46.

and the key to driving jobs. Alex, are you convinced it will be

:57:47.:57:51.

transformative? I hope so. We have seen cuts to our local authority

:57:52.:57:56.

budgets and lots of things they were able to do before can no longer be

:57:57.:58:01.

done. We have to put eggs into this basket and make sure we have strong

:58:02.:58:06.

person in Sue Jeffery as the new elected mayor. We have the

:58:07.:58:10.

possibility of a Tees crossing which will be expensive. We need an agenda

:58:11.:58:15.

that will drive jobs and ensure people have the skills to take those

:58:16.:58:20.

jobs and give our communities the prosperity we need. And you will be

:58:21.:58:24.

favourites to win this election. If you use it as a platform to talk

:58:25.:58:30.

about the cuts to funding, it's not going to get very far. Do you need

:58:31.:58:36.

to get all the parties together and sing from the same hymn sheet so it

:58:37.:58:43.

has some cloud with government? I am always surprised when I talk to

:58:44.:58:48.

people and I tell them I work cooperatively with other people from

:58:49.:58:53.

the other parties. They are surprised about that. That is what I

:58:54.:58:57.

do and what the mayor will do and what the local authorities will do.

:58:58.:59:02.

They work together as a team with their communities to deliver. The

:59:03.:59:07.

impact of Brexit on the north-east was debated in the Lords this week.

:59:08.:59:18.

MPs and unions have criticised plans to change and close two of the post

:59:19.:59:26.

offices in Billingham and concept. They will be located in to new

:59:27.:59:34.

shops. They want to raise council tax by 4.9%. 3% will help towards

:59:35.:59:40.

social care. Lord beef has said the impact on the colour me off the

:59:41.:59:44.

north-east needs to be fully considered in future Brexit

:59:45.:59:48.

negotiations. The north-east of England has had the most positive

:59:49.:59:54.

trade balance of any region of the UK. 58% of these exports are to

:59:55.:00:01.

European Union countries. North-east hospital's a Mac -- A has dealt

:00:02.:00:06.

with over 2 million people and a rise of 4%. North Tyneside Council

:00:07.:00:10.

has approved plans for two huge cranes to be used in the wind

:00:11.:00:13.

turbine industry at Wallsend. One is turbine industry at Wallsend. One is

:00:14.:00:17.

six times bigger than the Angel of the North. That is about it from us.

:00:18.:00:24.

Tomorrow night, inside out and asks if the NHS is to the National

:00:25.:00:29.

Service orders where you live matter to when you want to get treatment.

:00:30.:00:35.

We are back next Sunday. We will have a packed agenda. Why not follow

:00:36.:00:39.

me on Twitter. Details on the screen.

:00:40.:00:43.

Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump would tone things down

:00:44.:00:51.

after the American election campaign, they may have

:00:52.:00:53.

The period where he has been President-elect will make them think

:00:54.:01:06.

again. The inauguration is coming up on Friday.

:01:07.:01:07.

Never has the forthcoming inauguration of a president been

:01:08.:01:09.

In a moment, we'll talk to a man who knows Mr Trump

:01:10.:01:13.

But first, let's have a look at the press conference

:01:14.:01:17.

Mr Trump gave on Wednesday, in which he took the opportunity

:01:18.:01:19.

to rubbish reports that Russia has obtained compromising information

:01:20.:01:21.

You are attacking our news organisation.

:01:22.:01:37.

Can you give us a chance, you are attacking our news

:01:38.:01:42.

organisation, can you give us a chance to ask a question, sir?

:01:43.:01:45.

As far as Buzzfeed, which is a failing pile of garbage,

:01:46.:01:51.

writing it, I think they're going to suffer the consequences.

:01:52.:01:55.

Does anyone really believe that story?

:01:56.:01:58.

I'm also very much of a germaphobe, by the way.

:01:59.:02:01.

If Putin likes Donald Trump, guess what, folks, that's called

:02:02.:02:03.

The only ones that care about my tax returns are the reporters, OK?

:02:04.:02:11.

Do you not think the American public is concerned?

:02:12.:02:13.

The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first last conference. The Can will he

:02:14.:02:27.

change as President? Because he hasn't changed in the run-up to

:02:28.:02:31.

being inaugurated? I don't think he will commit he doesn't see any point

:02:32.:02:34.

in changing. Why would he change from the personality that just one,

:02:35.:02:39.

as he just said, I just one. All of the bleeding-heart liberals can wail

:02:40.:02:42.

and brush their teeth and say how ghastly that all this, Hillary

:02:43.:02:47.

should have won and so on, but he has got an incredible mandate.

:02:48.:02:50.

Remember, Trump has the House committee has the Senate, he will

:02:51.:02:53.

have the Supreme Court. He has incredible power right now. He

:02:54.:02:57.

doesn't have to listen to anybody. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago

:02:58.:03:00.

specifically about Twitter, I asked him what the impact was of Twitter.

:03:01.:03:05.

He said, I have 60 million people following me on Twitter. I was able

:03:06.:03:11.

to bypass mainstream media, bypass all modern political convention and

:03:12.:03:14.

talk directly to potential voters. Secondly, I can turn on the TV in

:03:15.:03:18.

the morning, I can see a rival getting all of the airtime, and I

:03:19.:03:23.

can fire off a tweet, for free, as a marketing man he loves that, and,

:03:24.:03:27.

boom, I'm on the news agenda again. He was able to use that

:03:28.:03:31.

magnificently. Twitter to him didn't cost him a dollar. He is going to

:03:32.:03:38.

carry on tweeting in the last six weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump

:03:39.:03:46.

has never had an alcoholic drink a cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by

:03:47.:03:51.

the 70, he has incredible energy and he is incredibly competitive. At his

:03:52.:03:55.

heart, he is a businessman. If you look at him as a political

:03:56.:03:59.

ideologue, you completely missed the point of trouble. Don't take what he

:04:00.:04:03.

says literally, look upon it as a negotiating point that he started

:04:04.:04:06.

from, and try to do business with him as a business person would, and

:04:07.:04:11.

you may be presently surprised so pleasantly surprised. He treats the

:04:12.:04:16.

press and the media entirely differently to any other politician

:04:17.:04:19.

or main politician in that normally the politicians try to get the media

:04:20.:04:25.

off a particular subject, or they try to conciliate with the media. He

:04:26.:04:30.

just comes and punches the media in the nose when he doesn't like them.

:04:31.:04:35.

This could catch on, you know! You are absolutely right, for a start,

:04:36.:04:39.

nobody could accuse him of letting that victory go to his head. You

:04:40.:04:46.

know, he won't say, I will now be this lofty president. He's exactly

:04:47.:04:50.

the same as he was before. What is fascinating is his Laois and ship

:04:51.:04:53.

with the media. I haven't met, and I'm sure you haven't, met a party

:04:54.:04:57.

leader who is obsessed with the media. But they pretend not to be.

:04:58.:05:03.

You know, they state, oh, somebody told me about a column, I didn't

:05:04.:05:10.

read it. He is utterly transparent in his obsession with the media, he

:05:11.:05:15.

doesn't pretend. How that plays out, who knows? It's a completely

:05:16.:05:17.

different dynamic than anyone has seen by. Like he is the issue, he

:05:18.:05:23.

has appointed an unusual Cabinet, that you could criticise in many

:05:24.:05:27.

ways. Nearly all of them are independent people in their own

:05:28.:05:30.

right. A lot of them are wealthy, too. They have their own views. They

:05:31.:05:34.

might not like what he tweaked at 3am, and he does have to deal with

:05:35.:05:40.

his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters, now the Defence Secretary, he might

:05:41.:05:43.

not like what's said about China at three in morning - general matters.

:05:44.:05:49.

This is what gets very conjugated. We cannot imagine here in our

:05:50.:05:52.

political system any kind of appointments like this. Using the

:05:53.:05:55.

wouldn't have a line-up of billionaires of the kind of

:05:56.:05:58.

background that he has chosen -- you simply wouldn't have. But that won't

:05:59.:06:02.

stop him saying and reading what he thinks. Maybe it will cause him some

:06:03.:06:06.

internal issues when the following day he has the square rigged with

:06:07.:06:09.

whatever they think. But he's going to press ahead. Are we any clearer

:06:10.:06:18.

in terms of policy. I know policy hasn't featured hugely in this

:06:19.:06:22.

campaign of 2016. Do we have any really clear idea what Mr Trump is

:06:23.:06:28.

hoping to achieve? He has had some consistent theme going back over 25

:06:29.:06:32.

years. One is a deep scepticism about international trade and the

:06:33.:06:35.

kind of deals that America has been doing over that period. It has been

:06:36.:06:39.

so consistent that is has been hard to spin as something that you say

:06:40.:06:43.

during the course of a campaign of something to get elected.

:06:44.:06:46.

Ultimately, Piers is correct, he won't change. When he won the

:06:47.:06:49.

election committee gave a relatively magnanimous beach. I thought his ego

:06:50.:06:53.

had been sated and he had got what he wanted. He will end up governing

:06:54.:06:57.

as is likely eccentric New York liberal and everything will be fine.

:06:58.:07:01.

In the recent weeks it has come to my attention that that might not be

:07:02.:07:03.

entirely true! LAUGHTER

:07:04.:07:09.

It is a real test of the American system, the Texan bouncers, the

:07:10.:07:11.

foreign policy establishment which is about to have the orthodoxies

:07:12.:07:16.

disrupted -- the checks and balances. I think he has completely

:07:17.:07:20.

ripped up the American political system. Washington as we know it is

:07:21.:07:24.

dead. From his garage do things his way, he doesn't care, frankly, what

:07:25.:07:30.

any of us thinks -- Trump is going to do things his way. If he can

:07:31.:07:34.

deliver for the people who voted for him who fault this disenfranchised,

:07:35.:07:43.

-- who voted for him who felt this disenfranchised. They voted

:07:44.:07:46.

accordingly. They want to see jobs and the economy in good shape, they

:07:47.:07:50.

want to feel secure. They want to feel that immigration has been

:07:51.:07:54.

tightened. If Trump can deliver on those main theme for the rust belt

:07:55.:07:58.

communities of America, I'm telling you, he will go down as a very

:07:59.:08:03.

successful president. All of the offensive rhetoric and the

:08:04.:08:05.

argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it may be will be completely

:08:06.:08:09.

irrelevant. Let me finish with a parochial question. Is it fair to

:08:10.:08:16.

say quite well disposed to this country? And that he would like,

:08:17.:08:18.

that he's up for a speedy free-trade, bilateral free-trade

:08:19.:08:23.

you'll? Think we have to be sensible as the country. Come Friday, he is

:08:24.:08:28.

the president of the United States, the most powerful man and well. He

:08:29.:08:32.

said to me that he feels half British, his mum was born and raised

:08:33.:08:36.

in Scotland until the age of 18, he loves British, his mother used to

:08:37.:08:40.

love watching the Queen, he feels very, you know, I would roll out the

:08:41.:08:44.

red carpet for Trump, let him eat Her Majesty. The crucial point for

:08:45.:08:49.

us as a country is coming -- let him me to Her Majesty. If we can do a

:08:50.:08:55.

speedy deal within an 18 month period, it really sends a message

:08:56.:08:58.

that well but we are back in the game, that is a hugely beneficial

:08:59.:09:01.

thing for this country. Well, a man whose advisers were indicating that

:09:02.:09:06.

maybe he should learn a few things from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn.

:09:07.:09:12.

Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. --

:09:13.:09:14.

yes, indeed. If you don't win Copeland,

:09:15.:09:17.

and if you don't win Stoke-on-Trent Central,

:09:18.:09:20.

you're toast, aren't you? Our party is going to fight very

:09:21.:09:21.

hard in those elections, as we are in the local elections,

:09:22.:09:26.

to put those policies out there. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:27.:09:29.

the Government on the NHS. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:30.:09:31.

them on the chaos of Brexit. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:32.:09:34.

them on the housing shortage. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:35.:09:36.

them on zero-hours contracts. Is there ever a moment that you look

:09:37.:09:38.

in the mirror and think, you know what, I've done my best,

:09:39.:09:43.

but this might not be for me? I look in the mirror

:09:44.:09:47.

every day and I think, let's go out there and try

:09:48.:09:49.

and create a society where there are opportunities for all,

:09:50.:09:52.

where there aren't these terrible levels of poverty, where

:09:53.:09:54.

there isn't homelessness, where there are houses for all,

:09:55.:09:56.

and where young people aren't frightened of going to university

:09:57.:09:58.

because of the debts they are going to end up

:09:59.:10:01.

with at the end of their course. Mr Corbyn earlier this morning.

:10:02.:10:09.

Steve, would it be fair to say that the mainstream of the Labour Party

:10:10.:10:12.

has now come to the conclusion that they just have to let Mr Corbyn get

:10:13.:10:16.

on with it, that they are not going to try and influence what he does.

:10:17.:10:20.

They will continue to try and have their own views, but it's his show,

:10:21.:10:25.

it's up to him, if it's a mess, he has to live with it and we'll have

:10:26.:10:28.

clean hands? For now, yes. I think they made a mistake when he was

:10:29.:10:32.

first elected to start in some cases tweeting within seconds that it was

:10:33.:10:36.

going to be a disaster, this was Labour MPs. They made a complete

:10:37.:10:40.

mess of that attempted coup in the summer, which strengthened his

:10:41.:10:46.

position. And he did, it gave Corbyn the space with total legitimacy to

:10:47.:10:49.

say that part of the problem is, we're having this public Civil War.

:10:50.:10:55.

In keeping quiet, that disappeared as part of the explanation for why

:10:56.:10:59.

Labour and low in the polls. I think they are partly doing that. But they

:11:00.:11:05.

are also struggling, the so-called mainstream Labour MPs, to decide

:11:06.:11:09.

what the distinctive agenda is. It's one of the many differences with the

:11:10.:11:13.

80s, where you had a group of people sure of what they believed in, they

:11:14.:11:17.

left to form the SDP. What's happening now is that they are

:11:18.:11:21.

leaving politics altogether. That is a crisis of social Democrats all

:11:22.:11:25.

across Europe, including the French Socialists, as we will find out

:11:26.:11:29.

later in the spring. Let Corbyn because then, that's the strategy.

:11:30.:11:36.

There is a weary and sometimes literal resignation from the

:11:37.:11:38.

moderates in the Labour Party. If you talk to them, they are no longer

:11:39.:11:41.

angry, they have always run out of steam to be angry about what's going

:11:42.:11:44.

on. They are just sort of tired and feel that they've just got to see

:11:45.:11:47.

this through now. I think the by-elections will be interesting.

:11:48.:11:51.

When Andrew Marr said, you're toast, and you? I thought, he's never

:11:52.:11:56.

posed! That was right. A quick thought from view? One thing Corbyn

:11:57.:12:00.

has in common with Trump is immunity to bad news. I think he can lose

:12:01.:12:10.

Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long as it is not a sequence of

:12:11.:12:11.

resignations and by-elections afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20

:12:12.:12:14.

Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy what. It may be more trouble if

:12:15.:12:17.

Labour loses the United trade union elections. We are in a period of

:12:18.:12:23.

incredible unpredictability generally in global politics. If you

:12:24.:12:27.

look at the way the next year plays out, if for example brags it was a

:12:28.:12:30.

disaster and it starts to unravel very quickly, Theresa May is

:12:31.:12:34.

attached to that, clearly label would have a great opportunity

:12:35.:12:38.

potentially disease that higher ground, and when Eddie the Tories --

:12:39.:12:41.

Labour would have an opportunity. Is Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed

:12:42.:12:46.

him, what struck me was that he talked about being from, a laughable

:12:47.:12:51.

comparison, but when it is really laughable is this - Hillary Clinton,

:12:52.:12:56.

what were the things she stood for, nobody really knew? What does Trump

:12:57.:13:00.

stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn has the work-out four or five

:13:01.:13:04.

messages and bang, bang, bang. He could still be in business. Thank

:13:05.:13:06.

you for being with us. I'll be back at the same

:13:07.:13:08.

time next weekend. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:09.:13:11.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:12.:13:13.

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