22/01/2017 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


22/01/2017

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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to visit US

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President Donald Trump this week - she's promised to hold "very

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frank" conversations with the new and controversial

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Speaking of the 45th President of America,

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we'll be looking at what the Trump presidency could hold

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in store for Britain and the rest of the world.

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And with the Supreme Court expected to say that Parliament should

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have a vote before the Brexit process begins, we'll ask

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Here, will the north-east and what Labour will do next.

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Here, will the north-east and Cumbria boys be heard during Brexit

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negotiations. It's curtains And to talk about all of that

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and more, I'm joined by three journalists who, in an era

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of so-called fake news, can be relied upon for their accuracy,

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their impartiality - and their willingness

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to come to the studio It's Steve Richards,

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Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tom Newton Dunn,

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and during the programme they'll be tweeting as often as the 45th

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President of the USA in the middle So - the Prime Minister has been

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appearing on the BBC this morning. She was mostly talking

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about Donald Trump and Brexit, but she was also asked about a story

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on the front of this It's reported that an unarmed

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Trident missile test fired from the submarine HMS Vengeance

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near the Florida coast in June The paper says the incident took

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place weeks before a crucial Commons Well, let's have listen

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to Theresa May talking The issue that we were talking

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about in the House of Commons It was about whether or not

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we should renew Trident, whether we should look to the future

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and have a replacement Trident. That's what we were talking

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about in the House of Commons. That's what the House

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of Commons voted for. He doesn't want to defend our

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country with an independent There are tests that take place

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all the time, regularly, What we were talking about in that

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debate that took place... I'm not going to get

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an answer to this. Tom, it was clear this was going to

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come up this morning. It is on the front page of the Sunday Times. It

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would seem to me the Prime Minister wasn't properly briefed on how to

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reply. I think she probably was, but the Prime Minister we now have

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doesn't necessarily answer all questions in the straightest way.

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She didn't answer that one and all. Unlike previous ones? She made it

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quite clear she was briefed. You read between the Theresa May lines.

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By simply not answering Andrew Marr four times, it is obvious she knew,

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and that she knew before she went into the House of Commons and urged

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everyone to renew the ?40 billion replacement programme. Of course it

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is an embarrassment, but does it have political legs? I don't think

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so. She didn't mislead the Commons. If she wanted to close it down, the

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answer should have been, these are matters of national security.

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There's nothing more important in that than our nuclear deterrent. I'm

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not prepared to talk about testing. End of. But she didn't. Maybe you

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should be briefing her. That's a good answer. She is an interesting

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interviewee. She shows it when she is nervous. She was transparently

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uneasy answering those questions, and the fact she didn't answer it

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definitively suggests she did know and didn't want to say it, and she

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answered awkwardly. But how wider point, that the House of Commons

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voted for the renewal of Trident, suggests to me that in the broader

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sweep of things, this will not run, because if there was another vote, I

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would suggest she'd win it again. But it is an embarrassment and she

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handled it with a transparent awkwardness. She said that the tests

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go on all the time, but not of the missiles. Does it not show that when

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the Prime Minister leaves her comfort zone of Home Office affairs

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or related matters, she often struggles. We've seen it under

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questioning from Mr Corbyn even, and we saw it again today. Absolutely.

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Tests of various aspects of the missiles go on all the time, but

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there's only been five since 2000. What you described wouldn't have

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worked, because in previous tests they have always been very public

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about it. Look how well our missiles work! She may not have misled

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Parliament, but she may not have known about it. If she didn't know,

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does Michael Fallon still have a job on Monday? Should Parliament know

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about a test that doesn't work? Some would say absolutely not. Our

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deterrent is there to deter people from attacking us. If they know that

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we are hitting the United States by mistake rather than the Atlantic

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Ocean, then... There is such a thing as national security, and telling

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all the bad guys about where we are going wrong may not be a good idea.

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It was her first statement as Prime Minister to put her case for

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renewal, to have the vote on Trident, and in that context, it is

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significant not to say anything. If anyone knows where the missile

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landed, give us a call! So Donald Trump's inauguration day

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closed with him dancing to Frank Sinatra's My Way,

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and whatever your view on the 45th President of the United States

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he certainly did do it his way. Not for him the idealistic call

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for national unity - instead he used Friday's inaugural

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address to launch a blistering attack on the dark state

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of the nation and the political class, and to promise

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to take his uncompromising approach from the campaign trail

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to the White House. Here's Adam Fleming,

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with a reminder of how First, dropping by for a cup of tea

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and a slightly awkward exchange Then, friends, foes

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and predecessors watched I, Donald John Trump,

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do solemnly swear... The crowds seemed smaller

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than previous inaugurations, the speech tougher then any

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previous incoming president. From this day forth,

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it's going to be only America first. In the meantime, there were sporadic

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protests in Washington, DC. Opponents made their voices heard

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around the world too. The President,

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who'd criticised the work of the intelligence agencies,

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fitted in a visit to the CIA. There is nobody that feels stronger

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about the intelligence community And, back at the office,

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in the dark, a signature signalled the end of the Obama era

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and the dawn of Trump. So, as you heard there,

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President Trump used his inauguration to repeat his campaign

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promise to put "America first" in all his decisions, and offered

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some hints of what to expect He talked of in America in carnage,

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to be rebuilt by American hands and American Labour. President Trump has

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already started to dismantle key parts of the Obama Legacy, including

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the unwinding of the affordable care act, and the siding of the climate

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action plan to tackle global warning. Little to say about foreign

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policy, but promised to eradicate Islamic terrorism from the face of

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the Earth, insisting he would restore the US military to

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unquestioning dominance. He also said the US would develop a state

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missile defence system to deal with threats he sees from Iran and North

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Korea. In a statement that painted a bleak picture of the country he now

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runs, he said his would be a law and order Administration, and he would

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keep the innocents safe by building the border war with Mexico. One

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thing he didn't mention, for the first time ever, there is a

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Eurosceptic in the oval office, who is also an enthusiast for Brexit.

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We're joined now by Ted Malloch - he's a Trump supporter who's been

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tipped as the president's choice for US ambassador

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to the EU, and he's just flown back from Washington.

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And by James Rubin - he's a democrat who served

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Let's start with that last point I made in the voice over there. We now

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have a Eurosceptic in the oval office. He is pro-Brexit and not

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keen on further European Union integration. What are the

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implications of that? First of all, a renewal of the US- UK special

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relationship. You see the Prime Minister already going to build and

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rebuild this relationship. Already, the bust of Winston Churchill is

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back in the oval office. Interestingly, Martin Luther King's

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bust is also there, so there is an act of unity in that first movement

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of dusts. Donald Trump will be oriented between bilateral

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relationships and not multilateral or supernatural. Supranational full.

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What are the implications of someone in the White House now not believing

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in it? I think we are present in the unravelling of America's leadership

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of the West. There is now a thing called the west that America has led

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since the end of World War II, creating supranational - we just

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heard supernatural! These institutions were created. With

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American leadership, the world was at peace in Europe, and the world

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grew increasingly democratic and prosperous. Wars were averted that

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could be extremely costly. When something works in diplomacy, you

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don't really understand what the consequences could have been. I

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think we've got complacent. The new president is taking advantage of

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that. It is a terrible tragedy that so many in the West take for granted

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the successful leadership and institutions we have built. You

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could argue, as James Rubin has argued in some articles, that...

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Will Mr Trump's America be more involved in the world than the Obama

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won? Or will it continue the process with running shoes on that began

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with Mr Obama? President Obama stepped back from American

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leadership. He withdrew from the world. He had a horrendous eight

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years in office, and American powers have diminished everywhere in the

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world, not just in Europe. That power will reassert. The focus will

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be on America first, but there are foreign interests around the

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world... How does it reassert itself around the world? I think the

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institutions will be recreated. Some may be taken down. There could be

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some new ones. I think Nato itself, and certainly the Defence Secretary

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will have discussions with Donald Trump about how Nato can be

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reshaped, and maybe there will be more burden sharing. That is an

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important thing for him. You are tipped to be the US ambassador to

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Brussels, to the EU, and we are still waiting to hear if that will

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happen. Is it true to say that Mr Trump does not believe in EU

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integration? I think you made that clear in the speech. He talked about

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supranational. He does not believe in those kinds of organisations. He

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is investing himself in bilateral relationships, the first of which

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will be with the UK. So we have a president who does not believe in EU

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integration and has been highly critical of Nato. Do the people he

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has appointed to defend, Secretary of State, national security, do you

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think that will temper this anti-NATO wretched? Will he come

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round to a more pro-NATO situation? I think those of us who care about

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America's situation in the world will come in to miss President Obama

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a lot. I think the Secretary of State and the faculty of defence

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will limit the damage and will urge him not to take formal steps to

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unravel this most powerful and most successful alliance in history, the

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Nato alliance. But the damage is already being done. When you are the

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leader of the West, leadership means you are persuading, encouraging,

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bolstering your leadership and these institutions by the way you speak.

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Millions, if not hundreds of millions of people, have now heard

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the US say that what they care about is within their borders.

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What do you say to that? It is such an overstatement. The point is that

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Donald Trump is in a Jacksonian tradition of national populism. He

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is appealing to the people first. The other day, I was sitting below

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this page during the address, and he said, everyone sitting behind me as

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part of the problem. Everyone in front of me, the crowd and the crowd

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on television, is part of the solution, so we are giving the

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Government back to the people. That emphasis is going to change American

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life, including American International relations. It doesn't

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moving the leak back -- it doesn't mean we are moving out of Nato, it

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simply means we will put our national interests first. There were

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echoes of Andrew Jackson's inauguration address of 1820. That

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night, the Jacksonians trashed the White House, but Mr Trump's people

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didn't do that, so there is a difference there. He also said

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something else in the address - that protectionism would lead to

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prosperity. I would suggest there is no evidence for that in the post-war

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world. He talked about protecting the American worker, American jobs,

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the American economy. I actually think that Donald Trump will not

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turn out to be a protectionist. If you read the heart of the deal...

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This is referring to two Republican senators who introduce massive

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tariffs in the Hoover administration. Exactly. If you read

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The Art Of The Deal, you will see how Donald Trump deals with

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individuals and countries. There is a lot of bluster, positioning, and I

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think you already see this in bringing jobs by the United States.

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Things are going to change. Let's also deal with this proposition.

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China is the biggest loser of this election result. Let me say this:

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The first time in American history and American president has set forth

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his view of the world, and it is a mercantile view of the world, who

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makes more money, who gets more trade, it doesn't look at the shared

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values, leadership and defends the world needs. The art of the deal has

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no application to America's leadership of the world, that's what

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we're learning. You can be a great businessman and make great real

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estate deals - whether he did not is debatable - but it has nothing to do

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with inspiring shared values from the West. You saying China may lose,

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because he may pressure them to reduce their trade deficit with the

:18:59.:19:03.

US. They may or may not. We may both lose. Right now, his Secretary of

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State has said, and I think he will walk this back when he is brief,

:19:09.:19:13.

that they will prevent the Chinese from entering these islands in the

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South China Sea. If they were to do that, it would be a blockade, and

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there would be a shooting war between the United States and China,

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so US - China relations are the most important bilateral relationship of

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the United States, and they don't lend themselves to the bluff and

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bluster that may have worked when you are trying to get a big building

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on second Ave in Manhattan. Is China the biggest loser? I think the

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Chinese have a lot to lose. Gigi and Ping was in Davos this week -- Xi

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Jin Ping was in Davos. Is Germany the second biggest loser

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in the sense that I understand he hasn't agreed time to see Angela

:20:09.:20:12.

Merkel yet, also that those close to him believe that Germany is guilty

:20:13.:20:18.

of currency manipulation by adopting a weak your row instead of the

:20:19.:20:22.

strong Deutschmark, and that that is why they are running a huge balance

:20:23.:20:26.

of payments surplus with the United States. American - German relations

:20:27.:20:32.

may not be great. There is a point of view throughout Europe. You only

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have to talk to the southern Europeans about this question. It

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seems like the euro has been aligned to benefit Germany. Joe Stiglitz,

:20:43.:20:46.

the famous left of centre Democrat economist, made the same case in a

:20:47.:20:53.

recent book. In this case, I think Germany will be put under the

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spotlight. Angela Merkel has shown herself to be the most respected and

:20:58.:21:01.

the most successful leader in Europe. We who care about the West,

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who care about the shared values of the West, should pray and hope that

:21:08.:21:11.

she is re-elected. This isn't about dollars and cents. We're living in a

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time whether Russian leader has another country in Europe and for

:21:17.:21:21.

some inexplicable reason, the American president, who can use his

:21:22.:21:27.

insult diplomacy on everyone, including Mrs Merkel, the only

:21:28.:21:33.

person he can't seem to find anything to criticise about is Mr

:21:34.:21:37.

Putin. There are things more important than the actual details of

:21:38.:21:40.

your currency. There are things like preventing another war in Europe,

:21:41.:21:44.

preventing a war between the Chinese and the US. You talk about the

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Trident missile all morning, nuclear deterrence is extremely important.

:21:52.:21:55.

It doesn't lend itself to the bluff and bluster of a real estate deal. I

:21:56.:21:59.

understand all that, but the fact we are even talking about these things

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shows the new world we are moving into. I'd like to get you both to

:22:03.:22:08.

react to this. This is a man that ended the Bush Dynasty, a man that

:22:09.:22:16.

beat the Clinton machine. In his inauguration, not only did he not

:22:17.:22:19.

reach out to the Democrats, he didn't even mention the Republicans.

:22:20.:22:24.

These are changed days for us. They are, and change can be good or

:22:25.:22:28.

disastrous. I'm worried that it's easy in the world of diplomacy and

:22:29.:22:33.

in them -- for the leadership of the United States to break relationships

:22:34.:22:38.

and ruin alliances. These are things that were carefully nurtured. George

:22:39.:22:47.

Schultz, the American Secretary of State under Reagan talked about

:22:48.:22:51.

gardening, the slow, careful creation of a place with bilateral

:22:52.:22:56.

relationships that were blossoming and flowering multilateral

:22:57.:22:58.

relationships that take decades to create, and he will throw them away

:22:59.:23:01.

in a matter of days. The final word... I work for George Schultz.

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He was a Marine who stood up America, defended America, who would

:23:09.:23:12.

be in favour of many of the things that Donald Trump and the tramp

:23:13.:23:17.

Administration... Give him a call. His top aide macs that I've spoken

:23:18.:23:22.

to are appalled by Mr Trump's abdication of leadership. He is

:23:23.:23:27.

going to our radically -- he's going to eradicate extremist Islam from

:23:28.:23:35.

the face of the year. Is that realistic? I know people in the

:23:36.:23:38.

national security realm have worked on a plan. They say they will have

:23:39.:23:42.

such a plan in some detail within 90 days. Lets hope they succeed. We

:23:43.:23:51.

have run out of time. As a issues. Thank you, both. -- fascinating

:23:52.:23:52.

issues. So Theresa May promised a big speech

:23:53.:23:56.

on Brexit, and this week - perhaps against expectation -

:23:57.:23:59.

she delivered, trying to answer claims that the government didn't

:24:00.:24:01.

have a plan with an explicit wish-list of what she hopes to

:24:02.:24:04.

achieve in negotiations with the EU. To her allies it was ambitious,

:24:05.:24:07.

bold, optimistic - to her opponents it was full

:24:08.:24:09.

of contradictions Here's Adam again, with a reminder

:24:10.:24:11.

of the speech and how There are speeches,

:24:12.:24:14.

and there are speeches. Like Theresa May's 12 principles

:24:15.:24:19.

for a Brexit deal leading to the UK fully out of the EU

:24:20.:24:23.

but still friendly in terms This agreement should allow

:24:24.:24:26.

for the freest possible trade in goods and services between

:24:27.:24:30.

Britain and the EU's member states. It should give British

:24:31.:24:32.

companies the maximum operate within European markets

:24:33.:24:38.

and let European businesses do She also said no deal would be

:24:39.:24:41.

better than the wrong deal, We want to test what people think

:24:42.:24:49.

about what she's just said. Do we have any of our

:24:50.:25:05.

future negotiating As the European Parliament

:25:06.:25:07.

voted for its new president, its chief

:25:08.:25:12.

negotiator sounded off. Saying, OK, if our European

:25:13.:25:20.

counterparts don't accept it, we're going to make

:25:21.:25:22.

from Britain a sort of free zone or tax haven,

:25:23.:25:25.

I The Prime Minister of Malta,

:25:26.:25:27.

the country that's assumed the EU's rotating presidency,

:25:28.:25:34.

spoke in sorrow and a bit of anger. We want a fair deal

:25:35.:25:37.

for the United Kingdom, but that deal necessarily needs to be

:25:38.:25:41.

inferior to membership. Next, let's hear

:25:42.:25:51.

from some enthusiastic leavers, like, I don't

:25:52.:25:53.

know, the Daily Mail? The paper lapped it up

:25:54.:25:59.

with this adoring front page. For Brexiteers, it was

:26:00.:26:02.

all manna from heaven. I think today means we are a big

:26:03.:26:06.

step closer to becoming an independent country again,

:26:07.:26:08.

with control of our own laws, I was chuckling at some of it,

:26:09.:26:11.

to be honest, because There were various phrases there

:26:12.:26:17.

which I've used myself again and Do we have any of those

:26:18.:26:21.

so-called Remoaners? There will, at the end

:26:22.:26:26.

of this deal process, so politicians get to vote

:26:27.:26:28.

on the stitch-up, but We take the view as

:26:29.:26:32.

Liberal Democrats that if this process started

:26:33.:26:35.

with democracy last June, We trusted the people

:26:36.:26:37.

with departure, we must trust them Do we have anyone from

:26:38.:26:41.

Labour, or are you all watching it in a small

:26:42.:26:47.

room somewhere? Throughout the speech, there seemed

:26:48.:26:49.

to be an implied threat that somewhere along the line,

:26:50.:26:57.

if all her optimism of a deal with the European Union didn't work,

:26:58.:27:00.

we would move into a low-tax, corporate taxation,

:27:01.:27:02.

bargain-basement economy on the I think she needs to be

:27:03.:27:04.

a bit clearer about what The Labour leader

:27:05.:27:08.

suggested he'd tell his MPs to vote in favour

:27:09.:27:15.

of starting a Brexit process if Parliament was given the choice,

:27:16.:27:18.

sparking a mini pre-revolt among Finally, do we have anyone

:27:19.:27:20.

from big business here? Of course, your all in Davos

:27:21.:27:26.

at the World Economic Clarity, first of all, really

:27:27.:27:35.

codified what many of us have been anticipating since

:27:36.:27:45.

the referendum result, particularly around

:27:46.:27:47.

the I think what we've also seen

:27:48.:27:48.

today is the Government's willingness to put a bit of edge

:27:49.:27:52.

into the negotiating dynamic, and I Trade negotiations are negotiations,

:27:53.:27:55.

and you have to lay out, and you have to be pretty tough

:27:56.:28:00.

to get what you want. Although some business people

:28:01.:28:02.

on the slopes speculated about moving some of their

:28:03.:28:04.

operations out of Brexit Britain. We saw there the instant reaction

:28:05.:28:07.

of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, but how will the party respond

:28:08.:28:25.

to the challenge posed by Brexit Well, I'm joined now by the Shadow

:28:26.:28:28.

Home Secretary, Diane Abbott. People know that Ukip and the Tories

:28:29.:28:37.

are for Brexit. The Lib Dems are four remain. What is Labour for? For

:28:38.:28:42.

respecting the result of the referendum. It was a 72% turnout,

:28:43.:28:48.

very high for an election of that nature, and we believe you have to

:28:49.:28:51.

respect that result. You couldn't have a situation where people like

:28:52.:28:55.

Tim Farron are saying to people, millions of people, sorry, you got

:28:56.:28:59.

it wrong, we in London no better. However, how the Tories go forward

:29:00.:29:04.

from here has to be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. Is it Shadow

:29:05.:29:10.

Cabinet policy to vote for the triggering of Article 50? Our policy

:29:11.:29:15.

is not to block Article 50. That is what the leader was saying this

:29:16.:29:22.

morning. So are you for it? Our policy is not to block it. You are

:29:23.:29:27.

talking about voting for it. We don't know what the Supreme Court is

:29:28.:29:33.

going to say, and we don't know what legislation Government will bring

:29:34.:29:35.

forward, and we don't know what amendment we will move, but we're

:29:36.:29:41.

clear that we will not vote to block it. OK, so you won't bow to stop it,

:29:42.:29:45.

but you could abstain? No, what we will do... Either you vote for or

:29:46.:29:53.

against all you abstain. There are too many unanswered questions. For

:29:54.:29:57.

instance, the position of EU migrants working and living in this

:29:58.:30:02.

country. You may not get the answer to that before Article 50 comes

:30:03.:30:06.

before the Commons, so what would you do then? We are giving to amend

:30:07.:30:11.

it. We can only tell you exactly how we will amend it when we understand

:30:12.:30:15.

what sort of legislation the Government is putting forward, and

:30:16.:30:19.

in the course of moving those amendments, we will ask the

:30:20.:30:23.

questions that the people of Britain whether they voted to leave remain

:30:24.:30:24.

want answered. When you come to a collective view,

:30:25.:30:35.

will there be a three line whip? I can't tell you, because we have not

:30:36.:30:39.

seen the government 's legislation. But when you see it, you will come

:30:40.:30:47.

to a collective view. Many regard this as extremely important. Will

:30:48.:30:51.

there be a three line whip on Labour's collective view? Because it

:30:52.:30:56.

is important, we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. When we see what the

:30:57.:31:01.

Supreme Court says, and crucially, when we see what the government

:31:02.:31:06.

position is, you will hear what the whipping is. Will shadow ministers

:31:07.:31:12.

be able to defy any three line whip on this? That is not normally the

:31:13.:31:18.

case. But they did on an early vote that the government introduced on

:31:19.:31:23.

Article 50. Those who voted against it are still there. In the Blair

:31:24.:31:28.

years, you certainly couldn't defy a three line whip. We will see what

:31:29.:31:33.

happens going forward. I remember when the Tories were hopelessly

:31:34.:31:39.

divided over the EU. All these Maastricht votes and an list

:31:40.:31:44.

arguments. Now it is Labour. Just another symptom of Mr Corbyn's poor

:31:45.:31:56.

leadership. Not at all. Two thirds voted to leave, a third to remain.

:31:57.:32:01.

We are seeking to bring the country and the party together. We will do

:32:02.:32:06.

that by pointing out how disastrous a Tory Brexit would be. Meanwhile,

:32:07.:32:17.

around 80 Labour MPs will defy a three line whip. It's too early to

:32:18.:32:22.

say that. Will you publish what you believe the negotiating goal should

:32:23.:32:27.

be? We are clear on it. We think that the economy, jobs and living

:32:28.:32:32.

standards should be the priority. What Theresa May is saying is that

:32:33.:32:37.

holding her party together is her priority. She is putting party above

:32:38.:32:43.

country. Does Labour think we should remain members of the single market?

:32:44.:32:49.

Ideally, in terms of jobs and the economy, of course. Ritt -ish

:32:50.:32:55.

business thinks that as well. Is Labour policy that we should remain

:32:56.:32:58.

a member of the single market? Labour leaves that jobs and the

:32:59.:33:03.

economy comes first, and if they come first, you would want to remain

:33:04.:33:09.

part of the single market. But to remain a member? Jobs and the

:33:10.:33:15.

economy comes first, and to do that, ideally, guess. So with that, comes

:33:16.:33:21.

free movement of people, the jurisdiction of the European, and a

:33:22.:33:25.

multi-million never shipped thief. Is Labour prepared to pay that?

:33:26.:33:34.

Money is neither here nor there. Because the Tories will be asked to

:33:35.:33:42.

pay a lot of money... The EU has made it clear that you cannot

:33:43.:33:48.

have... I am asking for Labour's position. Our position is rooted in

:33:49.:33:54.

the reality, and the reality is that you cannot have the benefits of the

:33:55.:33:58.

member of the European Union, including being a member of the

:33:59.:34:02.

single market, without responsibility, including free

:34:03.:34:07.

movement of people. Free movement, is remaining under the jurisdiction

:34:08.:34:12.

of the European Court of Justice. Is that the Labour position? You've

:34:13.:34:19.

said that Labour wants to remain a member of the single market. That is

:34:20.:34:24.

the price tag that comes with it. Does Labour agree with paying that

:34:25.:34:30.

price tag? We are not pre-empting negotiation. Our goals are protect

:34:31.:34:35.

jobs and the British economy. Is it Labour's position that we remain a

:34:36.:34:40.

member of the customs union? Well, if we don't, I don't see how Theresa

:34:41.:34:54.

May can keep our promises and has unfettered access... You said

:34:55.:34:59.

Labour's position was clear. It is! It is clear that Theresa May... I am

:35:00.:35:07.

not asking about Theresa May. Is it Labour's position to remain a member

:35:08.:35:14.

of the customs union? It is Labour's position to do what is right for

:35:15.:35:19.

British industry. Depending on how the negotiations go, it may prove

:35:20.:35:24.

that coming out of the customs union, as Theresa May has indicated

:35:25.:35:28.

she wants to do, could prove catastrophic, and could actually

:35:29.:35:35.

destroy some of her promises. You do accept that if we are member of the

:35:36.:35:39.

customs union, we cannot do our own free trade deals? What free trade

:35:40.:35:48.

deals are you talking about? The ones that Labour might want to do in

:35:49.:35:54.

the future. First, we have to protect British jobs and British

:35:55.:35:58.

industries. If you are talking about free trade deals with Donald Trump,

:35:59.:36:02.

the danger is that Theresa May will get drawn into a free-trade deal

:36:03.:36:07.

with America that will open up the NHS to American corporate... The

:36:08.:36:14.

cards are in Theresa May's hands. If she takes us out of the single

:36:15.:36:19.

market, if she takes us out of the customs union, we will have to deal

:36:20.:36:23.

with that. How big a crisis for Jeremy Corbyn will be if Labour

:36:24.:36:29.

loses both by-elections in February. I don't believe we will lose both.

:36:30.:36:36.

But if he did? I am not anticipating that. Is Labour lost two seats in a

:36:37.:36:44.

midterm of a Tory government, would that be business as usual? I'm not

:36:45.:36:47.

prepared to see us lose those seats, so I will not talk about something

:36:48.:36:49.

that will not happen. Thank you. You're watching

:36:50.:36:53.

the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:36:54.:36:54.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:36:55.:36:57.

minutes, The Week Ahead, when we'll be talking

:36:58.:37:00.

to Business Minister Margot James about the government's

:37:01.:37:02.

new industrial strategy and that crucial Supreme Court

:37:03.:37:05.

ruling on Brexit. First, though, the Sunday

:37:06.:37:08.

Politics where you are. Hello and a warm welcome

:37:09.:37:18.

to your local part of the show. This weekend, will nightschools soon

:37:19.:37:22.

be a thing of the past? Some MPs claim adult education

:37:23.:37:26.

classes could disappear altogether unless government cuts

:37:27.:37:28.

are rapidly reversed. We'll also have the latest news

:37:29.:37:31.

on the candidates fighting next month's crucial

:37:32.:37:34.

by-election in Copeland. But first, can the north-east

:37:35.:37:37.

and Cumbria flourish outside the EU Labour's Stephen Hughes has spent

:37:38.:37:40.

30 years representing Northeastern European Parliament

:37:41.:37:50.

and the Conservative MP You were a conservative who backed

:37:51.:37:52.

Remain in the referendum and the PM seems to be taking us to one

:37:53.:37:58.

of the hardest Brexits she could. I think the PM's

:37:59.:38:01.

speech was very good. A logical approach to negotiations,

:38:02.:38:04.

we are only about to start negotiations with Europe so she set

:38:05.:38:08.

out our position, a starting point, over the course of the next year

:38:09.:38:12.

we'll start to find out You must remember, before successful

:38:13.:38:16.

negotiations you have She set up a logical decision

:38:17.:38:22.

and I think we can prosper outside the European Common market

:38:23.:38:27.

because we'll be able to do deals with other countries,

:38:28.:38:31.

while at the same time I'm sure at the end of the day,

:38:32.:38:34.

we will strike a bespoke EU deal. You spent 30 years working

:38:35.:38:41.

in the European Parliament, to bring Britain and Europe closer

:38:42.:38:46.

together, what do you I think one of the French

:38:47.:38:49.

liberal MPs said well, you don't start a negotiation

:38:50.:38:56.

with a threat. I think it was a mistake to use that

:38:57.:38:58.

threat, the EU would be self mutilating if it took

:38:59.:39:02.

a tougher approach. I don't think people like

:39:03.:39:05.

the negotiator in the Parliament or Jean-Claude Juncker are trying

:39:06.:39:08.

to play hardball. They are saying it's going to be

:39:09.:39:12.

difficult because it is. But I think she's set out

:39:13.:39:14.

a number of ideas that The objectives give us

:39:15.:39:19.

an idea of the direction she would like to travel,

:39:20.:39:22.

we have got to see John is right, takes two

:39:23.:39:25.

to tango and we need to see Ukip were delighted by the tone

:39:26.:39:30.

of Theresa May's speech. But the party remains concerned not

:39:31.:39:35.

every Conservative MP It was a very good speech, in fact

:39:36.:39:37.

it could have been a Ukip speech. The only thing is she didn't mention

:39:38.:39:44.

was regaining our fishing ground, that was a bit of a disappointment

:39:45.:39:48.

but she was very clear we'll be leaving the single

:39:49.:39:51.

market and I welcome that. I'm still a bit worried

:39:52.:39:54.

about the pace of the And I still worry that ultimately

:39:55.:39:56.

Theresa May was a Remainer and she still has some of those MPs

:39:57.:40:00.

in her Cabinet, that worries me. I hope they're fully on board

:40:01.:40:05.

but we'll have to wait and see and that is the reason Ukip

:40:06.:40:08.

needs to continue. John, not sure if you're flattered,

:40:09.:40:10.

but that's the danger, you are aping their views by putting

:40:11.:40:17.

immigration as the top priority, controlling it, ahead

:40:18.:40:21.

of the welfare of the economy. No, I think any government

:40:22.:40:27.

has to do this, looks at the laws about immigration,

:40:28.:40:30.

future deals with other countries, government will do a number

:40:31.:40:35.

of things at the same time but the consequence of taking back

:40:36.:40:37.

control of boundaries means we are not part of the common

:40:38.:40:40.

market, of the European market. But a lot of businesses wanted

:40:41.:40:46.

to make sure they were in there We have the ability

:40:47.:40:49.

to come to an agreement with the European Union about access

:40:50.:40:56.

to their markets in exactly the same way they will have to come

:40:57.:40:59.

to an arrangement with us I think at the end of the day you

:41:00.:41:02.

end up with a bespoke EU UK deal. Are all constituents

:41:03.:41:11.

as relaxed as you? They recognise it's not going to be

:41:12.:41:12.

straightforward but I also think they accept the decision

:41:13.:41:15.

of the British people and what we now need to do is make

:41:16.:41:17.

sure we get the best possible deal, not just for the UK

:41:18.:41:21.

but also in Europe. When we negotiate looking

:41:22.:41:23.

towards mutual benefit I think If the Prime Minister is to address

:41:24.:41:26.

the concerns of voters about immigration she clearly has no

:41:27.:41:31.

choice but to leave If she wants to control immigration

:41:32.:41:34.

she has to leave the single market. Free movement is a fundamental

:41:35.:41:44.

part of access. We'll have a real problem

:41:45.:41:46.

in attracting the sort 69% of firms are worried they can't

:41:47.:41:52.

get recruits with skills they need, If we put these restrictions

:41:53.:41:57.

in the way for people looking for jobs we have real bottlenecks

:41:58.:42:05.

in the labour market, The predictions of economic doom

:42:06.:42:08.

and gloom haven't come to pass, we had them

:42:09.:42:12.

during the referendum, Does her speech change

:42:13.:42:14.

the direction of that? We will end up with a bespoke deal,

:42:15.:42:19.

but for the Parliament, the Maltese Foreign Minister,

:42:20.:42:25.

on our side, says a country leaving the European Union can't be

:42:26.:42:28.

seen to be better off It's at that point, that will become

:42:29.:42:31.

extremely difficult, John, the Prime Minister

:42:32.:42:41.

promised certainty, one But actually, this doesn't offer

:42:42.:42:44.

that, we don't know what the deal will be at the end of the day,

:42:45.:42:56.

we don't know if we get tariff free access companies like Pirelli

:42:57.:43:00.

and companies like Nissan, the Chief Executive

:43:01.:43:02.

talking about looking A deal already been done

:43:03.:43:03.

might unravel if you At this stage we don't know

:43:04.:43:06.

what the final deal will become What we have to do is make sure

:43:07.:43:12.

we get the best possible deal for Britain and Europe,

:43:13.:43:21.

at the same time,... You've got to reach an agreement

:43:22.:43:23.

with 27 different countries. Someone like Nissan,

:43:24.:43:25.

the Prime Minister spent time with them already saying,

:43:26.:43:27.

we are going to have to look at this, the decisions we might have

:43:28.:43:30.

made might have to be reversed. There is an acceptance any

:43:31.:43:33.

negotiation will be tough but nevertheless at the end

:43:34.:43:35.

of the day there will be an agreement between the EU and UK

:43:36.:43:38.

that also gives us the opportunity to start negotiating with other

:43:39.:43:41.

countries on our own terms, not with the EU as part

:43:42.:43:43.

of the group. For example, we'll be able to do

:43:44.:43:46.

deals with Australia, New Zealand, America,

:43:47.:43:49.

Canada, there are opportunities for us and at the same time reaching

:43:50.:43:51.

agreement with the EU. We promised that we get

:43:52.:43:58.

the voice of the North heard Cumbria won't have a seat

:43:59.:44:09.

at the discussions about We have representatives like myself

:44:10.:44:13.

who will feed in views to the government ministers and that

:44:14.:44:17.

happens throughout the country. The Tees Valley mayor will get a say

:44:18.:44:19.

in negotiations apparently because there is a Mayor

:44:20.:44:25.

but you can't involve the rest of the region,

:44:26.:44:27.

doesn't have a figurehead. It's a shame the rest

:44:28.:44:29.

of the region not decided not We get to see who will be elected

:44:30.:44:32.

in the Tees corridor, Do you think the north interests

:44:33.:44:36.

will be represented? The MEPs, the MPs will do

:44:37.:44:42.

an excellent job in presenting But those areas with a mayor,

:44:43.:44:45.

speaking on behalf of the local authority in their area will add

:44:46.:44:52.

a little bit of oomph to it. More than 60 MPs have signed

:44:53.:44:55.

a Commons motion condemning They warn traditional evening

:44:56.:45:01.

classes in subjects like pottery and foreign languages may disappear

:45:02.:45:05.

altogether because of The government says its putting

:45:06.:45:07.

the emphasis where it's needed most They are back to class even though

:45:08.:45:10.

they left school years ago. Adult education has seen funding

:45:11.:45:20.

and participation fall but these two Now she's learning to weld, to help

:45:21.:45:24.

her become a sculptor of metalwork. Alan was made redundant

:45:25.:45:35.

from life as a steelworker. He hopes this access course will

:45:36.:45:47.

lead to university and the chance to study social work. Both say the

:45:48.:45:52.

experience as life changing. It opens up a new world, a new world of

:45:53.:45:56.

opportunity and if you are made redundant, it's not the end of the

:45:57.:46:02.

world. The standards are very high. So that sense of satisfaction of

:46:03.:46:07.

achieving, getting your past and your exam pieces and practical

:46:08.:46:11.

pieces is fantastic. Here at Hartlepool College all ages take

:46:12.:46:15.

part in academic and technical learning but government austerity

:46:16.:46:19.

has had an impact. The man in charge says funding is down with adult

:46:20.:46:24.

enrolment tumbling 40%. Fewer students, fewer courses. About ten

:46:25.:46:30.

years ago we were quite by bin, four nights a week, we've cut that down

:46:31.:46:36.

to three, we want to make sure we have access to the adults of

:46:37.:46:39.

Hartlepool but it's getting more difficult to do that the funding.

:46:40.:46:43.

Unlike this needlework, the debate around adult learning has many

:46:44.:46:47.

threads. Regulars at this Gateshead craft class say it's benefits or

:46:48.:46:51.

social as well as educational. It's great. When you are retired you need

:46:52.:46:55.

to keep your brain working and the creative side going, mixing with

:46:56.:47:01.

people, it covers all of those. It's the social side, meeting people,

:47:02.:47:06.

learning to crochet, learning to knit. Sessions like these are under

:47:07.:47:11.

pressure. We have to turn down requests for classes like this all

:47:12.:47:15.

the time. We have to be very selective because we got limited

:47:16.:47:18.

funding and I think it would be brilliant if there was more funding

:47:19.:47:22.

available so more people could participate and get back to society.

:47:23.:47:27.

In a letter to ministers 60 MPs have called for a new adult education

:47:28.:47:32.

strategy. They warn cuts to provision risk worsening a shortage

:47:33.:47:36.

of skills. That is damaging the economy. And they say possibility of

:47:37.:47:40.

makes the situation more pressing. makes the situation more pressing.

:47:41.:47:45.

People need to be able to get the skills to get good, high skilled,

:47:46.:47:49.

high wage jobs which employers need to be able to recruit those people.

:47:50.:47:55.

Adult lifelong education is key if we are going to have a competitive

:47:56.:47:58.

economy post Brexit. Supporters of the government accept money has been

:47:59.:48:03.

tied up point to extra investment on the horizon. We've also got more

:48:04.:48:08.

general adult learner loans, the budget for which is increasing from

:48:09.:48:13.

200 million to 480 million, we've got the apprenticeships levy

:48:14.:48:16.

delivering around 3 billion a year at the end of the Parliament from

:48:17.:48:20.

large employers to help pay for the apprenticeship system. There is a

:48:21.:48:24.

better financial envelope which should support adult education.

:48:25.:48:28.

Never too late to learn but in a fast changing world, the challenges

:48:29.:48:31.

to equip generations to change with it.

:48:32.:48:38.

Two different kinds of adult education, let's deal with both, one

:48:39.:48:41.

in particular, Stephen Hughes, people in Gateshead in the crochet

:48:42.:48:45.

class felt they were getting a lot out of it. Surely it's better when

:48:46.:48:48.

money is tight for them to fond of themselves or look for outside

:48:49.:48:54.

sponsorship? I think the general government of individuals is

:48:55.:48:59.

important. I think skills related to training is important because the

:49:00.:49:03.

points made in that piece are right. Classes which you could look out for

:49:04.:49:07.

leisure and pleasure? No. Any school that people pick up in life and

:49:08.:49:13.

develop them as individuals and improve participation in society,

:49:14.:49:16.

it's a shame if any class of any sort is cut. Education

:49:17.:49:20.

across-the-board is worth investing in, the worry is it's not being

:49:21.:49:25.

invested in. 40% reduction in adult education since 2010, three

:49:26.:49:29.

worrying. The colleges think it could be gone altogether by 2020.

:49:30.:49:36.

Let's deal with classes, some would say is leisure, it's a sad thing if

:49:37.:49:40.

we don't place leisure on the course in Gateshead. If mental health

:49:41.:49:44.

benefits from it, they and society benefit and it might keep them out

:49:45.:49:49.

of the NHS? Education and training will always change, the amount of

:49:50.:49:52.

money the government has to spend depends on economic circumstances.

:49:53.:49:57.

This government has concentrated on apprenticeships, that was one of the

:49:58.:50:01.

great successes, now an ambition to have 3 million apprenticeships. All

:50:02.:50:10.

that kind of stuff goes... For instance, it's important we train up

:50:11.:50:11.

the next generation. If you give me the next generation. If you give me

:50:12.:50:17.

a chance to complete... It means every part of the workforce. What

:50:18.:50:21.

I'm saying is the apprenticeships has been a success, continues to be

:50:22.:50:25.

in this and we are funding that. Looking ahead, we've got the

:50:26.:50:28.

apprenticeship levy coming in, that will raise nearly 3 billion by the

:50:29.:50:30.

end of this Parliament. There will end of this Parliament. There will

:50:31.:50:33.

be an opportunity for funding not just apprenticeships for youngsters

:50:34.:50:38.

but adult apprenticeships. I think that's a sensible investment into

:50:39.:50:41.

the economy, the workforce of the future and now we have to continue

:50:42.:50:46.

to train, clearly skills will be vital for the future success of the

:50:47.:50:50.

economy. Rather than rely on the taxpayer isn't it appropriate to get

:50:51.:50:53.

us in this through the apprenticeship levy to fund

:50:54.:50:57.

retraining of able or people to take loans so they have investment in

:50:58.:51:01.

their own future? I think businesses should be investing more, we've a

:51:02.:51:04.

real problem in this country that businesses don't invest in training

:51:05.:51:05.

their own people, they'd rather puts their own people, they'd rather puts

:51:06.:51:10.

them from other organisations but nevertheless, we need to go back to

:51:11.:51:15.

time we subsidised adult education. When my dad left the mind he went to

:51:16.:51:18.

an adult training centre which trained him to become an

:51:19.:51:22.

electrician, he got an electronic qualification and got a totally

:51:23.:51:24.

different career. There not the money. Of course there is, it's a

:51:25.:51:29.

question of priorities. In Darlington, 25% of people don't have

:51:30.:51:37.

formal qualifications. They are the long-term unemployed of the future

:51:38.:51:39.

unless we begin to reinvest in adult education. Post Brexit we are going

:51:40.:51:44.

firing on all cylinders if we are firing on all cylinders if we are

:51:45.:51:48.

going to reduce the allowance on migrant workers and the signs are

:51:49.:51:52.

not that good on this, if this continues, further education

:51:53.:51:56.

colleges can provide retraining. I disagree, in the last parliament we

:51:57.:52:00.

had 2 million new apprentices, this Parliament we should have 3 million,

:52:01.:52:03.

we have the levy coming in, there will be funding. Employers are

:52:04.:52:08.

crying over people with skills, they are not getting them. That's an

:52:09.:52:12.

indication we have to up skill the workforce as best we can but what I

:52:13.:52:16.

say, the government recognises we need to up the number of

:52:17.:52:19.

apprenticeships, hence the increase that they want this Parliament and

:52:20.:52:23.

that is a way to try and improve the skills that we need for a successful

:52:24.:52:29.

economy. Labour and Ukip have selected the candidates for

:52:30.:52:30.

couple and by-election, it will be couple and by-election, it will be

:52:31.:52:33.

moved tomorrow in Parliament and the date of the contest that Labour

:52:34.:52:36.

defends his slim majority is the 23rd of February. It will be a short

:52:37.:52:42.

and intense campaign. He was 60 seconds.

:52:43.:52:50.

Labour and Ukip have chosen their candidates for the couple and

:52:51.:52:55.

by-election. Gillian Trout and a Labour councillor, the owner Mills

:52:56.:52:59.

is the Cumbria chairman of Ukip. Rebecca Hanson the Lib Dem

:53:00.:53:03.

candidate, the Conservatives and Greens will announce soon. Money

:53:04.:53:08.

from the EU solidarity fund will come to the region, it's been

:53:09.:53:11.

announced. Government is using most of it to repay the EU for funding it

:53:12.:53:15.

says was misspent by the last Labour government. Councils in the

:53:16.:53:19.

Northeast need more cash for social care according to Labour. The

:53:20.:53:23.

government insists it is taking action but Bishop Auckland MP Helen

:53:24.:53:27.

Goodman told the Commons extra money councils can raise to council tax

:53:28.:53:32.

isn't enough. Has already had to make ?55 million of cuts. The

:53:33.:53:38.

precept will bring in 4 million, there is another 40 million of cuts

:53:39.:53:39.

in the pipeline. And finally plans in the pipeline. And finally plans

:53:40.:53:46.

by Northumberland Council to install 16,000 solar panels in woodland near

:53:47.:53:49.

Ashington have been shelved cos of subsidy worries.

:53:50.:53:53.

We talked candidates fighting the by-election in a special edition

:53:54.:53:59.

from West Cumbria next month. One of the issues in the by-election will

:54:00.:54:02.

be jobs and the government believes it has a good story to tell.

:54:03.:54:06.

Unemployment in the north-east and Cumbria cut by almost a half in the

:54:07.:54:11.

last four years. Weber says many of the jobs are part-time or zero hours

:54:12.:54:16.

contracts. Bob Cooper reports. The north-east stubbornly remains the

:54:17.:54:19.

rate in the country but it's been rate in the country but it's been

:54:20.:54:24.

falling in recent years. Today it stands at 620%, just over half of

:54:25.:54:36.

what it was in 2011. -- 6.8. Good morning. How can I help. But --

:54:37.:54:42.

Janus was out of work after a spell caring for her mother but works in a

:54:43.:54:46.

travel centre. I feel valued. Never been out of work. Being out of work,

:54:47.:54:52.

you lose a little bit of confidence. And feel that you are not

:54:53.:54:57.

appreciated. As much. But now I'm in employment, I feel a different

:54:58.:55:01.

person. The firm says it is employing more people now than at

:55:02.:55:03.

any point in its history. When I any point in its history. When I

:55:04.:55:07.

joined we had around 80 employees and we now have 140. We had 12 of

:55:08.:55:16.

getting bigger and bigger. Back in getting bigger and bigger. Back in

:55:17.:55:21.

the north-east the governments been keen to trumpet its record.

:55:22.:55:24.

Unemployment in the north-east has come down quite a lot over the years

:55:25.:55:27.

and that's a welcome thing, the and that's a welcome thing, the

:55:28.:55:30.

investment that come into the region is something we all welcome. The

:55:31.:55:34.

As is renewable energy and other As is renewable energy and other

:55:35.:55:40.

sectors. Very encouraged by all of those things. Critics aren't

:55:41.:55:44.

impressed, saying underemployment is still a big problem. We are a

:55:45.:55:48.

blackspot for example in terms of zero or contracts, in terms of

:55:49.:55:53.

underemployment, people want to work more hours but can't. If you scratch

:55:54.:55:58.

the surface you see we have lots and lots of people working now in

:55:59.:56:04.

poverty. The labour market now is certainly different from what it

:56:05.:56:08.

was. Whether that's for good or ill, remains for debate.

:56:09.:56:14.

Stephen Hughes, labour constantly making claims the jobs of zero or as

:56:15.:56:19.

contracts, Andre plummet, part-time, few concrete stats to back it up,

:56:20.:56:21.

since 2012, unemployment started since 2012, unemployment started

:56:22.:56:25.

dropping, the number of part-time against full-time jobs has stayed

:56:26.:56:31.

the same. Zero hours contracts, that's increased radically over the

:56:32.:56:34.

region in that time period. Ian is right. We have a lot of low quality,

:56:35.:56:39.

zero our contracts, and increase... How many? The last count, you can

:56:40.:56:46.

find on Google, late 2015, 30,000 in the region, it's more than that. The

:56:47.:56:50.

Office of National Statistics reckons over the same period the

:56:51.:56:57.

zero hours contracts tripled, but there is a lot of underemployment.

:56:58.:57:01.

Talk to the people that you know, you mix with, that is certainly the

:57:02.:57:06.

case in Darlington, in the south of County Durham. Let's put this to

:57:07.:57:12.

John Stephenson. Those figures are stark about zero our contracts

:57:13.:57:16.

trebling... Not the sign of a great job market? Employment is higher now

:57:17.:57:22.

than it's ever been, employment since 2007, the lost. Here the

:57:23.:57:29.

economy is working. Cumbria is a good example in many respects,

:57:30.:57:31.

virtually full implement in Carlisle. You also talk to people

:57:32.:57:36.

who don't feel satisfied with the amount of money they're getting,

:57:37.:57:38.

don't feel satisfied about the kind of job... There are jobs available,

:57:39.:57:44.

if you come to my skills there, the employers are calling out for people

:57:45.:57:49.

to come to the skills because they are looking for people to employ.

:57:50.:57:52.

Quite clearly, there is a demand therefore people. It's the worker

:57:53.:57:56.

spotted there are not paid enough? Or if the job isn't good enough? The

:57:57.:58:01.

economy and creating jobs is doing well in Cumbria and I think that's a

:58:02.:58:05.

success. What we want to do is killing up people so they can get

:58:06.:58:09.

better paid jobs and improve their standards of living, we've got to

:58:10.:58:12.

recognise unemployment is very low and employment is very high. That's

:58:13.:58:18.

a success. You are looking churlish, that's the danger. Unemployment is

:58:19.:58:21.

twice as high in the north-east as the Saudis but I'll go back to

:58:22.:58:27.

something I said. About Skilling. -- skilling up people. I mentioned

:58:28.:58:31.

earlier, in Darlington almost a quarter of the working population

:58:32.:58:34.

have no formal qualifications, by 2020 for its estimated 2% of the

:58:35.:58:40.

workforce will have no formal qualifications. There is a time bomb

:58:41.:58:43.

ticking. Unless we reinvest in skills, those are going to become

:58:44.:58:48.

the long-term unemployed. The unemployed and statistics of the

:58:49.:58:50.

future. Could I say we accept that we must scale up the youth and

:58:51.:58:55.

people for the future but look at Cumbria, we have a new problem, we

:58:56.:59:01.

will actually have a shortage of workers. We need to encourage people

:59:02.:59:04.

to come across to Cumbria to seek jobs that are going to be there.

:59:05.:59:10.

Ideally from Europe? If you are saying an opponent is so high, the

:59:11.:59:14.

north-east may gravitate to Cumbria... The jobs will be there.

:59:15.:59:17.

There are problems that Stephen Hughes talks about. Statistics can

:59:18.:59:22.

mask them. Sunderland is a big city in the north-east, one in four of

:59:23.:59:26.

the young people are unemployed. That's not acceptable. I agree, we

:59:27.:59:31.

want to do things to improve the economy there but we have to seize

:59:32.:59:34.

the opportunities, jobs are being created and I go back to, great.

:59:35.:59:39.

There is going to be a substantial number of new jobs created, we've

:59:40.:59:41.

got to encourage people to come across and take them. Many of them

:59:42.:59:48.

will be well paid. Will they be the people with the skills you are

:59:49.:59:51.

looking for? That's something we've got to try and make sure that we

:59:52.:59:54.

have this killed opportunities but at the same token I'm sure there are

:59:55.:59:58.

people in the north-east who are skilled, would like a job, why don't

:59:59.:00:03.

they come to Cumbria? Stephen and John, thank you. That's about it for

:00:04.:00:07.

this week, back same time, same place next Sunday. But you can join

:00:08.:00:09.

me. For now, back have to do this. Thank you to you

:00:10.:00:11.

both. What exactly is the government's

:00:12.:00:14.

industrial strategy? Will ministers lose their supreme

:00:15.:00:24.

court battle over Brexit, and, Well, tomorrow Theresa May

:00:25.:00:28.

is launching the government's industrial strategy -

:00:29.:00:40.

and to talk about that we're joined by the Business Minister,

:00:41.:00:43.

Margot James - welcome to the show. When you look at what has already

:00:44.:00:55.

been released in advance of the Prime Minister's statement, it was

:00:56.:01:02.

embargoed for last night, it's not really an industrial strategy, it's

:01:03.:01:06.

just another skills strategy, of which we have had about six since

:01:07.:01:09.

the war, and our skills training is among the worst in Western Europe?

:01:10.:01:17.

There will be plenty more to be announced tomorrow in what is really

:01:18.:01:22.

a discussion document in the preparation of an industrial

:01:23.:01:25.

strategy which we intend to launch properly later in the year. Let's

:01:26.:01:32.

look at skills. You are allocating 117 of funding to establish

:01:33.:01:40.

institutes of technology. How many? The exact number is to be agreed,

:01:41.:01:44.

but the spend is there, and it will be on top of what we are doing to

:01:45.:01:49.

the university, technical colleges... How many were lit bio

:01:50.:01:53.

create? We don't know exactly, but we want to put them in areas where

:01:54.:02:00.

young people are performing under the national average. But if you

:02:01.:02:06.

don't know how many, what is the basis of 170 million? That is the

:02:07.:02:10.

amount the Treasury have released. The something that is very

:02:11.:02:14.

important, we are agreed we need to devote more resources to vocational

:02:15.:02:20.

training and get it on a par with academic qualifications. I looked on

:02:21.:02:26.

the website of my old university, the University of Glasgow, the

:02:27.:02:30.

Russell group universities. Its spending budget every year is over

:02:31.:02:36.

600 million. That's one University. And yet you have a mere 170 million

:02:37.:02:44.

foreign unspecified number of institutes of technology. It hasn't

:02:45.:02:49.

got equality with the academics? You have to remember that just as you

:02:50.:02:55.

have quoted figures from Glasgow University there are further

:02:56.:02:57.

education colleges all over the country. The government is already

:02:58.:03:05.

spending on 16 to 19-year-olds. But also, we are going to be adding...

:03:06.:03:12.

This is new money that is all to the good, because we are already

:03:13.:03:18.

spending a lot. We have already created 2 million more apprentices

:03:19.:03:21.

since 2010. That many are not in what we would call the stem skills,

:03:22.:03:27.

and a lot come nowhere near what the Dutch, Germans and Austrians would

:03:28.:03:32.

have. I'm not clear how another 170 million would do. You said it is

:03:33.:03:37.

more than skills. In what way is this industrial strategy different

:03:38.:03:42.

from what Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne did before? It's different because

:03:43.:03:52.

it is involving every single government department, and bringing

:03:53.:03:53.

together everything that government does in a bid to make Britain more

:03:54.:03:56.

competitive as it disengages from the European Union. That is what the

:03:57.:04:03.

last Labour government did. They will much more targeted

:04:04.:04:07.

interventions. Under the Labour government, the auto industry got

:04:08.:04:11.

some benefit. A few more sectors were broached under the coalition

:04:12.:04:16.

government. This is all about communities all over the country,

:04:17.:04:20.

some of whom have fallen behind in terms of wage growth and good jobs.

:04:21.:04:26.

The Prime Minister has already announced 2 billion as a research

:04:27.:04:33.

and development priority in specific technologies, robotics, artificial

:04:34.:04:36.

intelligence, medical technology, satellites... So you are doing what

:04:37.:04:42.

has been done before. There is nothing new about this. Wait until

:04:43.:04:47.

tomorrow, because there will be some new strands emerging. It is the

:04:48.:04:51.

beginning of the dialogue with industry and with workers, and the

:04:52.:04:56.

responses will be invited up until April. That will inform a wider

:04:57.:05:00.

strategy that goes beyond skills. I have moved on to beyond them. I'm

:05:01.:05:07.

slightly puzzled as to how the government knows where to invest in

:05:08.:05:12.

robotics, when it can't even provide the NHS with a decent IT system.

:05:13.:05:18.

Discuss. I have to say I find it bizarre that the government is

:05:19.:05:21.

making an announcement about an amount of money and don't know where

:05:22.:05:27.

it's going. This is typical of all governments over all political

:05:28.:05:32.

shoes, which is total disregard for technical education, so different

:05:33.:05:37.

from Germany, who actually invest in the technological side. Germany has

:05:38.:05:44.

a long history. We want to emulate some of the best of what German

:05:45.:05:51.

companies do. Siemens sponsor primary schools, for example. We

:05:52.:05:55.

want to get a dialogue on with business. We don't want to decide

:05:56.:06:01.

where this money is going. By the way, it was 4.7 billion that the

:06:02.:06:07.

government has agreed to invest in science and research, which is the

:06:08.:06:11.

most significant increase in decades. Can you remind us what

:06:12.:06:15.

happened in Northern Ireland, when the government invested money in

:06:16.:06:18.

state-of-the-art technology for energy? No one needs to be reminded

:06:19.:06:23.

of that, and that is not what we are doing. We are inviting business and

:06:24.:06:31.

industry to advise where that money is best spent. That's very different

:06:32.:06:37.

from government deciding that a particular technology is for the

:06:38.:06:40.

future. The government's chief scientific adviser has determined

:06:41.:06:47.

that we will invest a huge amount in battery technology, which should

:06:48.:06:52.

benefit the electric car industry, and... This is taxpayers' money. Who

:06:53.:06:59.

gets it? Ultimately, business will get it, but often only when there is

:07:00.:07:03.

a considerable amount of private sector finance also drawn in. But

:07:04.:07:14.

who is held to account? Various government departments at local

:07:15.:07:17.

authorities will hold this list to account. A lot of it is about

:07:18.:07:22.

releasing private capital as well. Thank you very much. This week, the

:07:23.:07:28.

Supreme Court, I think we know the ruling is coming on Tuesday. And the

:07:29.:07:35.

expectation is that the judges will say Parliament will have to vote to

:07:36.:07:40.

trigger. Is this all much ado about nothing? Parliament will vote to

:07:41.:07:44.

trigger, and the government will win in the Lords and the Commons by

:07:45.:07:48.

substantial majorities, and it will be triggered? Completely. We've

:07:49.:07:54.

known that. Parliament is voted. Everyone is pretty confident that

:07:55.:07:57.

the Supreme Court will uphold the High Court's decision and say it has

:07:58.:08:02.

to go to MPs. There will be a bit of toing and froing among MPs on

:08:03.:08:10.

amendments. You heard Diane Abbott's slightly car crash interview there.

:08:11.:08:15.

The Lib Dems may throw something in, but we will trigger Article 50 by

:08:16.:08:23.

the end of March. If it also says that the roll of Edinburgh, Cardiff

:08:24.:08:26.

and Belfast should be picked up, that could complicate matters.

:08:27.:08:32.

Absolutely. That could delay the planned triggering of Article 50

:08:33.:08:37.

before the end of March. Not what they say about the Westminster

:08:38.:08:40.

Parliament, because it is clear that it was. I never understood the

:08:41.:08:45.

furore about that original judgment, because every MP made it clear they

:08:46.:08:50.

wouldn't block it. Even though Diane Abbott was evasive on several

:08:51.:08:54.

fronts, she said they wouldn't block it. You are right, if they give a

:08:55.:09:00.

vote, or give some authorisation for the Scottish Parliament and other

:09:01.:09:05.

devolved assemblies, that might delay the whole sequence. That is

:09:06.:09:08.

the only significant thing to watch out for. Watch out on Tuesday. Mrs

:09:09.:09:15.

May goes to Washington. It will be another movie in the making! I would

:09:16.:09:21.

suggest that she has a tricky line to follow. She has got to be seen to

:09:22.:09:25.

be taking advantage of the fact that there is a very pro-British,

:09:26.:09:30.

pro-Brexit president in the Oval Office, who I am told is prepared to

:09:31.:09:36.

expend political capital on this. But on the other hand, to make sure

:09:37.:09:40.

that she is not what we used to call Mr Blair, George Bush's poodle. It

:09:41.:09:51.

is very difficult, and who would not want to be a fly on the wall in that

:09:52.:09:55.

meeting! I can't think of anyone in the world who would despise Mr Trump

:09:56.:10:00.

more than Mrs May, and for him, he dislikes any woman who does not look

:10:01.:10:04.

like a supermodel, no disrespected Mrs May. Most of it is actually

:10:05.:10:14.

anti-EU, and I think we should capitalise it. Let's get the Queen

:10:15.:10:20.

to earn her money, roll out the red carpet, invite him to dinner, spend

:10:21.:10:27.

the night, what ever we need... Trump at Balmoral! Here is the

:10:28.:10:31.

issue, because the agenda is, as we heard from Ted Malloch earlier, that

:10:32.:10:35.

this is not an administration that has much time for the EU, EU

:10:36.:10:41.

integration or Germany. I think Germany will be the second biggest

:10:42.:10:45.

loser to begin with. They will not even give a date for Angela Merkel

:10:46.:10:50.

to meet the president. This is an opportunity for Mrs May... It is a

:10:51.:10:58.

huge. It could sideline talks of the punishment beating from Germany. The

:10:59.:11:07.

Trump presidency has completely changed the field on Brexit. Along

:11:08.:11:13.

came Donald Trump, and Theresa May has this incredible opportunity

:11:14.:11:17.

here. Not of her making, but she has played her cards well. To an

:11:18.:11:23.

officially be the EU emissary to Washington, to get some sort of

:11:24.:11:28.

broker going. That gives us huge extra leveraged in the Brexit

:11:29.:11:32.

negotiations. People around the world think Germany as a currency

:11:33.:11:37.

manipulator, that it is benefiting from an underpriced euro, hence the

:11:38.:11:41.

huge surplus it runs of America, and they think it is disgraceful that a

:11:42.:11:45.

country that runs a massive budget surplus spends only 1.2% of its GDP

:11:46.:11:51.

on defence, and America runs a massive deficit and needs to spend a

:11:52.:11:57.

lot more. He's going for Germany. And what a massive shift. I think

:11:58.:12:04.

Obama was quite open, in a farewell interview, that he felt closer to

:12:05.:12:07.

Merkel than any other European leader. And Jamie kind of reflected

:12:08.:12:14.

that in our discussion. Yes, that's very interesting discussion. I think

:12:15.:12:20.

she was the last person he spoke to in the White House, Obama. And now

:12:21.:12:24.

you are getting the onslaught from Trump. This Thatcher- Reagan imagery

:12:25.:12:30.

is dangerous, though. Blair was hypnotised by it and was too scared

:12:31.:12:35.

to criticise Bush, because he wanted to be seen in that light, and we

:12:36.:12:41.

know where that led. Cameron similarly with Obama, which

:12:42.:12:44.

presented him with problems, as Obama didn't regard him as his

:12:45.:12:50.

number one pin up in Europe. I would put a note of caution in there about

:12:51.:12:55.

the Thatcher - Reagan parallel. Everything Trump is doing now is

:12:56.:13:01.

different from before, so Mrs May should not have any of these

:13:02.:13:06.

previous relationships in her mind. That is not entirely true. Donald

:13:07.:13:10.

Trump aches to be the new Ronald Reagan. He may be impeached first!

:13:11.:13:18.

He sees her as the new Margaret Thatcher, and that may her leveraged

:13:19.:13:20.

with him. Thank you. We'll be back here at the same time

:13:21.:13:28.

next week, and you can catch up on all the latest political news

:13:29.:13:33.

on the Daily Politics, In the meantime, remember -

:13:34.:13:35.

if it's Sunday, It's just pain,

:13:36.:13:39.

but it doesn't feel like pain, it feels much more violent,

:13:40.:14:17.

dark and exciting. Join Michael Buerk as he explores

:14:18.:14:40.

the dishes fit for kings and queens. When it comes to extravagance, few

:14:41.:14:46.

monarchs can compete with George IV. If that was for breakfast, I dread

:14:47.:14:50.

to think what he had for dinner.

:14:51.:14:54.

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