29/01/2017 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


29/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:07.:01:11.

mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.

:01:12.:01:16.

In the North East and Cumbria: the government promises

:01:17.:01:18.

a new hands-on approach to industry, but can the new strategy turn

:01:19.:01:21.

We report from the jobs blackspot of East Cleveland?

:01:22.:01:24.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:25.:01:25.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:26.:01:28.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:29.:01:30.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:31.:01:33.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:34.:01:36.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:37.:01:37.

And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:38.:01:39.

panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:40.:01:41.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:42.:01:43.

It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:44.:01:47.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:48.:01:49.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:50.:01:55.

Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:01:56.:01:59.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:02:00.:02:03.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:04.:02:05.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

:02:06.:02:11.

Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:12.:02:15.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:16.:02:23.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:24.:02:26.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:27.:02:29.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:30.:02:36.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:37.:02:40.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:41.:02:43.

The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:44.:02:49.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:50.:02:51.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:52.:02:54.

Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:55.:03:09.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:10.:03:12.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:13.:03:14.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:15.:03:20.

She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:21.:03:24.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:25.:03:29.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:30.:03:31.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:32.:03:35.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:36.:03:39.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:40.:03:41.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:42.:03:45.

The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:46.:03:47.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:48.:03:51.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:52.:04:03.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:04.:04:11.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:12.:04:15.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:16.:04:19.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:20.:04:26.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:27.:04:30.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:31.:04:37.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:38.:04:40.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:41.:04:45.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:46.:04:51.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:52.:04:53.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:54.:04:56.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:04:57.:05:01.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:02.:05:05.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:06.:05:09.

wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:10.:05:13.

moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:14.:05:18.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:19.:05:22.

hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:23.:05:30.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:31.:05:33.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:34.:05:36.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

:05:37.:05:39.

have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:40.:05:43.

Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:44.:05:45.

understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:46.:05:50.

the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:51.:05:54.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

:05:55.:05:58.

temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:05:59.:06:03.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:04.:06:09.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

:06:10.:06:13.

temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

:06:14.:06:19.

wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

:06:20.:06:23.

and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

:06:24.:06:26.

It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

:06:27.:06:31.

arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:32.:06:36.

been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

:06:37.:06:41.

I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:42.:06:45.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:46.:06:59.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:07:00.:07:04.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:05.:07:08.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:09.:07:11.

this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

:07:12.:07:15.

because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:16.:07:18.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

:07:19.:07:23.

you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:24.:07:29.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:30.:07:32.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:33.:07:37.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:38.:07:40.

country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:41.:07:46.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:47.:07:49.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:50.:07:54.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:07:55.:07:58.

should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:07:59.:08:01.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:02.:08:07.

Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:08.:08:10.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:11.:08:15.

believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:16.:08:20.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:21.:08:24.

number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:25.:08:27.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:28.:08:30.

of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:31.:08:36.

where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:37.:08:39.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

:08:40.:08:50.

Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:51.:08:56.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:08:57.:09:00.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:01.:09:05.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:06.:09:10.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:11.:09:15.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:16.:09:20.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:21.:09:25.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:26.:09:34.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:35.:09:38.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:39.:09:42.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:43.:09:46.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:47.:09:49.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:50.:09:54.

does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:55.:09:59.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:00.:10:02.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:03.:10:08.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:09.:10:12.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:13.:10:16.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:17.:10:22.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:23.:10:25.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:26.:10:30.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:31.:10:36.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:37.:10:39.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:40.:10:45.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:46.:10:49.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:50.:10:55.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:10:56.:10:59.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:00.:11:02.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:03.:11:10.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:11.:11:15.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:16.:11:19.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:20.:11:23.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:24.:11:26.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:27.:11:36.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:37.:11:41.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:42.:11:46.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

:11:47.:11:51.

with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:52.:11:55.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:11:56.:12:01.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:02.:12:07.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:08.:12:11.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:12.:12:17.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:18.:12:20.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:21.:12:26.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:27.:12:31.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:32.:12:35.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:36.:12:38.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:39.:12:43.

something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:44.:12:47.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:48.:12:52.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:53.:12:56.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:12:57.:13:01.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:02.:13:03.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:04.:13:08.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:09.:13:12.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:13.:13:16.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:17.:13:20.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:21.:13:24.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:25.:13:29.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:30.:13:32.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:33.:13:36.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:37.:13:42.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:43.:13:44.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:45.:13:48.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:49.:13:51.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:52.:13:53.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:54.:13:56.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:13:57.:13:58.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:13:59.:14:00.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:01.:14:02.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:03.:14:05.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:06.:14:09.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:10.:14:12.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:13.:14:20.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:21.:14:23.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:24.:14:27.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:28.:14:33.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:34.:14:34.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:35.:14:40.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:41.:14:44.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:45.:14:47.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:48.:14:50.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:51.:14:55.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:14:56.:14:58.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:14:59.:15:00.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:01.:15:04.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:05.:15:20.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:21.:15:24.

United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:25.:15:28.

appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:29.:15:33.

was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:34.:15:36.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:37.:15:44.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:45.:15:50.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:51.:15:56.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:15:57.:16:00.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:01.:16:06.

look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:07.:16:09.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:10.:16:15.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:16.:16:20.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:21.:16:23.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:24.:16:28.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:29.:16:33.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:34.:16:37.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:38.:16:41.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:42.:16:45.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:46.:16:52.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:53.:17:00.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:01.:17:04.

comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:05.:17:09.

policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:10.:17:14.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:15.:17:17.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:18.:17:27.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:28.:17:31.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:32.:17:36.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:37.:17:41.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:42.:17:44.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:45.:17:48.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:49.:17:54.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:55.:17:57.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:17:58.:18:02.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:03.:18:07.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:08.:18:10.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:11.:18:21.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:22.:18:29.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:30.:18:33.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:34.:18:36.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:37.:18:42.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:43.:18:45.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:46.:18:52.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:53.:18:57.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:18:58.:19:01.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:02.:19:04.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:05.:19:11.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:12.:19:14.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:15.:19:18.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:19.:19:21.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:22.:19:25.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:26.:19:31.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:32.:19:37.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:38.:19:41.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:42.:19:46.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:47.:19:51.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:52.:19:55.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:56.:20:02.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:03.:20:08.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:09.:20:14.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:15.:20:18.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:19.:20:22.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:23.:20:27.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:28.:20:31.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:32.:20:34.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:35.:20:38.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:39.:20:44.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:45.:20:49.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:50.:20:54.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:55.:20:58.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:20:59.:21:03.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:04.:21:08.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:09.:21:13.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:14.:21:16.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:17.:21:20.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:21.:21:24.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:25.:21:28.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:29.:21:34.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:35.:21:39.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:40.:21:43.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:44.:21:51.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:52.:21:54.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:55.:21:59.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:22:00.:22:02.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:03.:22:07.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:08.:22:10.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:11.:22:17.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:18.:22:21.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:22.:22:25.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:26.:22:29.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:30.:22:34.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:35.:22:37.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:38.:22:44.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:45.:22:48.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:49.:22:52.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:53.:22:58.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:22:59.:23:01.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:02.:23:07.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:08.:23:12.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:13.:23:16.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:17.:23:20.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:21.:23:24.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:25.:23:29.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:30.:23:33.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:34.:23:37.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:38.:23:41.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:42.:23:46.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:47.:23:50.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:51.:23:56.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:23:57.:23:59.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:00.:24:05.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:06.:24:09.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:10.:24:13.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:14.:24:16.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:17.:24:22.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:23.:24:26.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:27.:24:31.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:32.:24:36.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:37.:24:40.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:41.:24:46.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:47.:24:55.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:56.:24:59.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:00.:25:03.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:04.:25:10.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:11.:25:15.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:16.:25:19.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:20.:25:21.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:22.:25:23.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:24.:25:25.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:26.:25:27.

be talking to our political panel. Hello and a warm welcome

:25:28.:25:38.

to your local part of the show. Shorter than usual but still

:25:39.:25:41.

of course, perfectly formed. Asking if the government's

:25:42.:25:44.

new industrial strategy can help create prosperity and jobs

:25:45.:25:56.

in the north-east and Cumbria. But first, Parliament

:25:57.:25:58.

will get its say over Brexit. But how many MPs and peers

:25:59.:26:01.

from the North are willing to defy the views of their constituents

:26:02.:26:05.

and try and delay or even try and stop the UK leaving

:26:06.:26:08.

the European Union? Andy McDonald is the MP

:26:09.:26:10.

of Middlesborough and Shadow Lord Callanan is a former

:26:11.:26:13.

Conservative Euro MP, Andy McDonald, you

:26:14.:26:16.

campaigned to remain. But two thirds of Middlesborough

:26:17.:26:23.

voters, as we well When it comes to the vote,

:26:24.:26:26.

how do you weigh those two things? At the end of the day,

:26:27.:26:30.

the nation has spoken and the result is clear and I think as a Democrat,

:26:31.:26:37.

I think we have to accept So I will be voting to trigger

:26:38.:26:41.

Article 50, and I think that is absolutely the right

:26:42.:26:45.

thing to do. It is the beginning of the process,

:26:46.:26:47.

not the end of it. But you know that a lot

:26:48.:26:51.

of your colleagues don't see The MP for Durham City, she believes

:26:52.:26:54.

that the constituency voted remain I think it's hugely difficult

:26:55.:26:58.

for colleagues right across all the parties,

:26:59.:27:02.

by the way, it isn't just We represent the entire

:27:03.:27:05.

country, and of course And that actually is the right place

:27:06.:27:14.

to be, in recognising those that did vote,

:27:15.:27:18.

the majority, albeit by a small margin, did vote to leave,

:27:19.:27:20.

as well as the 48%. You said you respect democratic

:27:21.:27:22.

decision of the public. Does that just apply to the locale

:27:23.:27:30.

of your area or does that apply What we have to do is bring

:27:31.:27:33.

the entire country together and what we have got to make sure

:27:34.:27:37.

is that we get the best deal for Britain out of this and that's

:27:38.:27:41.

got to be where we should concentrate our efforts accept

:27:42.:27:44.

the com of the referendum Those who are abstaining, should

:27:45.:27:49.

they resign from their position? Well my personal view is that I hope

:27:50.:27:59.

that we don't have people leaving. But quite frankly that is a matter

:28:00.:28:03.

for the Chief Whip, you need Nick Browne to be sitting in this

:28:04.:28:07.

chair to answer that. If you defy a three line whip,

:28:08.:28:09.

should you be disciplined? I have made it abundantly clear

:28:10.:28:12.

that this is in enormously I think this is one of the most

:28:13.:28:14.

difficult things that any politician will deal with in their career

:28:15.:28:20.

and this is hugely important for for our nation, the most important

:28:21.:28:34.

thing to have happened I am unclear about what you

:28:35.:28:39.

think about that then. I am sure you are going to vote

:28:40.:28:44.

against Article 50. I am in favour of

:28:45.:28:48.

triggering article 15. What's wrong with MPs voting

:28:49.:28:51.

with a conscience against it? Because MPs voted to

:28:52.:29:04.

have a referendum on the issue, all parties recognise that this

:29:05.:29:06.

was an issue that strong opinions on either side split the political

:29:07.:29:16.

parties, so they decided to consult There was a record turnout, higher

:29:17.:29:19.

indeed than the general election. People voted to leave, the country

:29:20.:29:23.

voted to leave as a whole. The only legal way to leave

:29:24.:29:26.

is by triggering this Article 50 Ergo MPs should vote

:29:27.:29:29.

to trigger Article 50. I think Andy is quite

:29:30.:29:31.

right in his view. But if they look at their

:29:32.:29:34.

constituency and think, actually the majority of the people

:29:35.:29:36.

in my constituency didn't want to leave and I think it's not

:29:37.:29:38.

in their interest to leave, Because it wasn't decided

:29:39.:29:41.

on a constituency by We are a nation, we decide

:29:42.:29:45.

as a whole on this issue. The referendum was across

:29:46.:29:50.

the whole of the country. That was the democratic decision

:29:51.:29:52.

that they arrived at. A lot of Labour MPs and indeed a lot

:29:53.:29:55.

of conservatives have a lot of qualms about the government's

:29:56.:30:00.

approach to this. They had to be dragged kicking

:30:01.:30:02.

and screaming to publish this way paper that they weren't going to do,

:30:03.:30:05.

definitely not going to do. It's not actually been

:30:06.:30:08.

handled that well. Personally, I think

:30:09.:30:09.

that the government were silly to challenge

:30:10.:30:11.

the High Court decision. When we fought the referendum

:30:12.:30:13.

for the supremacy of Parliament to then say that Parliament wasn't

:30:14.:30:16.

being consulted, I think I think was an error

:30:17.:30:19.

on Theresa May's part I'd we should have just gone ahead and put Article

:30:20.:30:22.

50 to Parliament in the first place. There was no prospect

:30:23.:30:25.

of it being defeated But to look at it conversely,

:30:26.:30:27.

I as a Brexiteer, if the country had voted to remain,

:30:28.:30:35.

I would have had to accept that. That was the democratic decision

:30:36.:30:37.

that the country had arrived at. As it didn't, as we voted to leave,

:30:38.:30:40.

then we should leave. Andy McDonald, is this

:30:41.:30:43.

a bit of a mess for From a man who never

:30:44.:30:45.

really respected He is telling his colleagues

:30:46.:30:51.

that they have got to abide by it. We are a national party, we have got

:30:52.:31:04.

to come to the firm view. We are making it abundantly clear

:31:05.:31:11.

that we will not frustrate this MPs that are going to vote

:31:12.:31:15.

for it, MPs that are not. I have already explained,

:31:16.:31:25.

those MPs have got those difficult decisions to make,

:31:26.:31:27.

but we as a leadership have got to show that there is a firm line

:31:28.:31:30.

on this and there is. There is a three line whip on it, it

:31:31.:31:33.

doesn't get any stronger than that. If you do not have a three line

:31:34.:31:36.

whip, you cannot have members of the front bench

:31:37.:31:39.

defying it, though. We cannot sit on the front bench

:31:40.:31:41.

if you don't be a three line Well, we'll see what happens

:31:42.:31:44.

in the coming days Now how to spread prosperity

:31:45.:31:48.

beyond London and the South East Well the government this week

:31:49.:31:53.

produced what it says are a more hands-on industrial strategy

:31:54.:31:57.

which aims to do just that. It comes with extra money,

:31:58.:31:59.

just under ?50 million A chunk of which will go

:32:00.:32:01.

towards an advanced manufacturing park in South Tyneside

:32:02.:32:05.

and Sunderland close There will be 12.7 million

:32:06.:32:06.

for the local enterprise partnership to spend in Cumbria and 21.8 million

:32:07.:32:10.

for the Tees Valley. So, what's the reaction

:32:11.:32:12.

to the new industrial strategy been in areas like East Cleveland,

:32:13.:32:15.

which have struggled to deal with the loss

:32:16.:32:17.

of traditional industrial jobs? Well, David McMillan

:32:18.:32:19.

went to find out. Iron and stone mined

:32:20.:32:27.

in this hills here, helped In the villages of East Cleveland

:32:28.:32:29.

there are signs that it was a prosperous place once but it's not

:32:30.:32:33.

so prosperous now. The government says its industrial

:32:34.:32:35.

strategy will spread opportunity But will it really make an impact

:32:36.:32:38.

in a place like this? There's a lot of diverse people

:32:39.:32:42.

around here with good ideas Because Loftus is a good place,

:32:43.:32:48.

it has a lot of good people. But now it's like everyone is down,

:32:49.:32:54.

worrying about their jobs and effects that they don't work,

:32:55.:32:58.

it affects lots of pubs, Hundreds of jobs have then lost

:32:59.:33:01.

here in recent years but the hot ash The boss here thinks the industrial

:33:02.:33:05.

strategy can help them move East Cleveland has got a long

:33:06.:33:09.

history of strong industrial And with the right funding

:33:10.:33:13.

and the right focus, you know we can continue to build

:33:14.:33:16.

on that history. Think tank, IPPR North strongly

:33:17.:33:19.

welcomed the strategy. They say close attention

:33:20.:33:21.

is needed though to make We need the investment in innovation

:33:22.:33:23.

really to work for areas like this. We need the investment and skills

:33:24.:33:27.

to work across regions and we need that investment and skills to go

:33:28.:33:30.

right through the workforce to work for older workers,

:33:31.:33:33.

for people already in work, not just people starting out,

:33:34.:33:37.

so that they can reskill When the steelworks closed in nearby

:33:38.:33:40.

Redcar, the lack of a clear strategy on steel was one of the reasons

:33:41.:33:44.

blamed for its collapse. The steel industry survives

:33:45.:34:00.

here the new owners have But union reps say they need

:34:01.:34:02.

more practical support from the government,

:34:03.:34:08.

like using British Steel, We have the infrastructure here,

:34:09.:34:09.

we could make the steel, we could make the product

:34:10.:34:13.

which they seem to want If we could get the gas

:34:14.:34:15.

and the electric cheaper coming in the door and the rates

:34:16.:34:24.

on the premises, give us a level playing field and we can

:34:25.:34:28.

compete with anybody. A local MP here is also

:34:29.:34:29.

focused on what's missing The main concerns I have

:34:30.:34:32.

are at the solitary single mention of steel in the entire document

:34:33.:34:36.

in the Green paper. The lack of any mention

:34:37.:34:38.

on capturing storage. The real issue for me is the lack

:34:39.:34:40.

of clarity in finance coming forward from the government in terms

:34:41.:34:43.

of what they are willing to fund. There is a general consensus that

:34:44.:34:46.

developing an industrial strategy is a step forward in itself

:34:47.:34:48.

but the government has work to do to convince some in East Cleveland

:34:49.:34:52.

that it does enough to make Martin Callanan, is the strategy

:34:53.:34:54.

partially an admission that the lack of any strategic thinking over steel

:34:55.:34:59.

was disastrous both for an industry that was key to this country

:35:00.:35:02.

and to communities on Teesside? I don't think the strategy is just

:35:03.:35:05.

based on steel, of course not. There are many other industries

:35:06.:35:08.

in many other areas that will benefit from this ?20 million

:35:09.:35:10.

as your film has said that has been allocated

:35:11.:35:13.

to the Local Enterprise Partnership It will be up to them to decide how

:35:14.:35:15.

they are going to spend it. But we got some of the hints

:35:16.:35:20.

from the film there, investment in skills,

:35:21.:35:22.

investment in digital infrastructure And of course leaving the EU

:35:23.:35:24.

would allow us to do something But is it an admission

:35:25.:35:29.

that the government got it wrong though for steel to let

:35:30.:35:36.

a steel mill like the one The answer to your question is what

:35:37.:35:39.

could they have done to save it? Beyond stepping in and ploughing

:35:40.:35:44.

into tens, possibly even hundreds of millions of pounds that

:35:45.:35:46.

would have went to Thailand's investment banks, there was little

:35:47.:35:49.

that the government could do. They looked at it very closely

:35:50.:35:51.

and concluded and even with an industrial strategy,

:35:52.:35:53.

it's not clear how the steelworks I don't want this to dominate

:35:54.:35:56.

the debate about the mill Do you accept this is a real step

:35:57.:36:01.

forward, a strategy, industrial strategy,

:36:02.:36:14.

because that was an anathema until recently, Sajid Javid

:36:15.:36:28.

didn't say it. But to answer the question that

:36:29.:36:30.

Martin didn't, this is a stark admission that the government didn't

:36:31.:36:33.

respond correctly Italian governments, German,

:36:34.:36:34.

and French governments have stepped in and didn't breach

:36:35.:36:45.

state aid rules. There were no findings

:36:46.:36:47.

of any breach. Those jobs could have been saved

:36:48.:36:49.

and there could a much more And I know from the inside track

:36:50.:36:53.

that the decision could have been There was a successful power plant

:36:54.:37:02.

and also the whole... On the strategy itself,

:37:03.:37:06.

what you make of it? It has got lofty ambitions

:37:07.:37:08.

and ideas which is wonderful. But we will succeed if we focus

:37:09.:37:11.

upon advanced manufacturing, the aerospace, the automotive

:37:12.:37:15.

industries, they are our successful 75% of the steel produced now didn't

:37:16.:37:17.

exist just a few short years ago, so we've got to make sure

:37:18.:37:24.

that we are up slightly We've got some major

:37:25.:37:26.

infrastructure projects, We got to make sure that British

:37:27.:37:29.

made steel plays a huge Now that we are leaving the EU

:37:30.:37:33.

and we will be subject We can in fact put more procurement

:37:34.:37:37.

laws which dead people towards, It is one of the central points

:37:38.:37:53.

of the flaws in the strategy, Is that not going to be the biggest

:37:54.:37:57.

impact on our industry and actually, you know, given that much

:37:58.:38:02.

of the industry of this nation, half of the export trade is with the EU,

:38:03.:38:04.

you can doing anything without thinking how

:38:05.:38:08.

that is great and pack? Actually one of the biggest benefits

:38:09.:38:09.

for the industry has been the reduction in the value

:38:10.:38:12.

of the pound, since we It might be short-term,

:38:13.:38:14.

but it has provided a 15-20% fall, You talk to businesses in the area

:38:15.:38:19.

and they say it's making It's not a long-term strategy,

:38:20.:38:23.

clearly, but it is making It will allow us to do something

:38:24.:38:27.

about the emissions trading scheme and, energy prices,

:38:28.:38:30.

state aid rules, etc. I'm not saying that we should be

:38:31.:38:32.

investing directly larger amounts That would be a huge mistake

:38:33.:38:35.

and a mistake we made The suspicion is that the Labour

:38:36.:38:39.

strategy would be to bail It's about investing

:38:40.:38:42.

in successful industries. It's about facilitating

:38:43.:38:46.

their growth and development. It's about personal

:38:47.:38:48.

investment, isn't it. There were opportunity is missed

:38:49.:38:54.

over Redcar and it's a tragedy. Because it is people who pay

:38:55.:38:57.

the price ultimately and they're the ones who lose their jobs

:38:58.:38:59.

and a Tory government could have And it is to their eternal shame

:39:00.:39:02.

that they let that happen. It closed under a Labour

:39:03.:39:06.

government and reopened under It was not closed under

:39:07.:39:08.

a Labour government. It was mothballed, we are not

:39:09.:39:11.

win to agree on that. I am sure we will discuss that

:39:12.:39:14.

strategy in the near future. Now the latest on the Copeland

:39:15.:39:19.

local by-election. The rest of the week's

:39:20.:39:20.

news in 60 seconds. 24 Labour MPs from the north-east

:39:21.:39:26.

have written to to Theresa May saying her decision to pull the UK

:39:27.:39:29.

out of the EU single market and Customs union

:39:30.:39:32.

will have a damaging impact The formal go-ahead has been

:39:33.:39:34.

given for the by-election The writ was moved in the Commons

:39:35.:39:37.

by Labour's Chief Whip, Nick Browne. To make out a new writ

:39:38.:39:42.

for the electing of a member to serve in this present Parliament

:39:43.:39:46.

for the county Campaigning in the constituency,

:39:47.:39:49.

which is held by Labour with a 2,500 Conservative Party Chairman Patrick

:39:50.:40:04.

McLoughlin and Ukip leader Paul Paul Nuttall were both

:40:05.:40:18.

in the area this week. The Tories have chosen

:40:19.:40:20.

Trudie Harrison, who in the past has worked for Copeland Council

:40:21.:40:23.

and Sellafield as their candidate. While software engineer

:40:24.:40:25.

Jack Lennox will fight the seat Labour, Ukip and the Liberal

:40:26.:40:27.

Democrats have already selected. We will have a special programme

:40:28.:40:30.

on Copeland in February. air-pollution. Thank you for being

:40:31.:40:31.

here. Welcome back and let's get back

:40:32.:40:37.

to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven

:40:38.:40:42.

mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,

:40:43.:40:47.

Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK

:40:48.:40:50.

should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong

:40:51.:41:03.

for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be

:41:04.:41:09.

challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should

:41:10.:41:12.

come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.

:41:13.:41:17.

Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long

:41:18.:41:21.

term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going

:41:22.:41:26.

to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be

:41:27.:41:32.

anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe

:41:33.:41:36.

territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until

:41:37.:41:40.

summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people

:41:41.:41:45.

coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees

:41:46.:41:49.

from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on

:41:50.:41:53.

Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in

:41:54.:42:00.

mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world

:42:01.:42:03.

that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when

:42:04.:42:07.

it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the

:42:08.:42:12.

civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500

:42:13.:42:17.

Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a

:42:18.:42:26.

hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,

:42:27.:42:29.

although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is

:42:30.:42:36.

discovering that being a president is different from being a business

:42:37.:42:39.

man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a

:42:40.:42:43.

backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss

:42:44.:42:48.

with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,

:42:49.:42:52.

and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial

:42:53.:42:56.

ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any

:42:57.:43:01.

opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the

:43:02.:43:07.

streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an

:43:08.:43:11.

international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit

:43:12.:43:15.

are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have

:43:16.:43:18.

suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you

:43:19.:43:22.

have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal

:43:23.:43:28.

Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who

:43:29.:43:33.

would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one

:43:34.:43:40.

subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in

:43:41.:43:44.

front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.

:43:45.:43:48.

Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played

:43:49.:43:52.

host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we

:43:53.:43:55.

have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how

:43:56.:44:01.

serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often

:44:02.:44:05.

are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still

:44:06.:44:13.

won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place

:44:14.:44:16.

in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the

:44:17.:44:19.

opposite the next day. Brown did the same.

:44:20.:44:25.

Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide

:44:26.:44:34.

because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on

:44:35.:44:38.

the major government, even though their position on the single

:44:39.:44:42.

currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of

:44:43.:44:47.

leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to

:44:48.:44:51.

dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over

:44:52.:44:55.

Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,

:44:56.:45:00.

but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in

:45:01.:45:04.

danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political

:45:05.:45:10.

conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we

:45:11.:45:14.

are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that

:45:15.:45:18.

vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would

:45:19.:45:23.

have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece

:45:24.:45:27.

of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial

:45:28.:45:33.

world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to

:45:34.:45:37.

worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the

:45:38.:45:41.

legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a

:45:42.:45:46.

big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year

:45:47.:45:51.

is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely

:45:52.:45:54.

hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an

:45:55.:45:59.

incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you

:46:00.:46:04.

politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've

:46:05.:46:08.

already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You

:46:09.:46:12.

have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to

:46:13.:46:17.

stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,

:46:18.:46:22.

and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we

:46:23.:46:27.

have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if

:46:28.:46:30.

it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will

:46:31.:46:33.

be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said

:46:34.:46:38.

regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU

:46:39.:46:44.

citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get

:46:45.:46:50.

through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all

:46:51.:46:56.

know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it

:46:57.:47:02.

won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with

:47:03.:47:05.

those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but

:47:06.:47:09.

the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's

:47:10.:47:14.

already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU

:47:15.:47:19.

governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit

:47:20.:47:23.

for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it

:47:24.:47:27.

through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey

:47:28.:47:31.

through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has

:47:32.:47:35.

been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there

:47:36.:47:41.

will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of

:47:42.:47:47.

the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and

:47:48.:47:53.

see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means

:47:54.:47:57.

unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s

:47:58.:48:02.

when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony

:48:03.:48:10.

Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in

:48:11.:48:16.

or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.

:48:17.:48:23.

But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this

:48:24.:48:24.

week. The Daily Politics is back

:48:25.:48:26.

tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here

:48:27.:48:30.

on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:48:31.:48:33.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:48:34.:48:40.

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.