05/02/2017 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


05/02/2017

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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Theresa May pledged to help people who are "just about managing",

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and this week her government will announce new measures to boost

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the number of affordable homes and improve conditions for renters.

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After a US court suspends Donald Trump's travel ban and rules

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it could be unconstitutional, one of the President's inner circle

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tells me there is no "chaos", and that Donald Trump's White House

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is making good on his campaign promises.

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As the Government gets into gear for two years

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of Brexit negotiations, we report on the haggling to come

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over the UK's Brexit bill for leaving the European Union -

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and the costs and savings once we've left.

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And with me, as always, a trio of top political

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journalists - Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme,

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So, more anguish to come this week for the Labour party as the House

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of Commons continues to debate the bill which paves the way

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Last week, Labour split over the Article 50 bill,

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with a fifth of Labour MPs defying Jeremy Corbyn to vote against.

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Five shadow ministers resigned, and it's expected Mr Corbyn

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will have to sack more frontbenchers once the bill is voted

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Add to that the fact that the Labour Leader's close ally

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Diane Abbot failed to turn up for the initial vote -

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blaming illness - and things don't look too rosy

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The Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry was asked

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about the situation earlier on the Andrew Marr show.

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The Labour Party is a national party and we represent the nation,

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and the nation is divided on this, and it is very difficult.

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Many MPs representing majority Remain constituencies have this very

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difficult balancing act between - do I represent my constituency,

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Labour, as a national party, have a clear view.

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We fought to stay in Europe, but the public have spoken,

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But the important thing now is not to give Theresa May a blank check,

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we have to make sure we get the right deal for the country.

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That was Emily Thornberry. Helen, is this like a form of Chinese water

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torture for the Labour Party? And for journalists, to! We are in a

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situation where no one really thinks it's working. A lot of authority has

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drained away from Jeremy Corbyn but no one can do anything about it.

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What we saw from the leadership contest is on the idea of a Blairite

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plot to get rid of him. You are essentially stuck in stasis. The

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only person that can remove Jeremy Corbyn is God or Jeremy Corbyn.

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Authority may have moved from Mr Corbyn but it's not going anywhere

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else, there's not an alternative centre of authority? Not quite, but

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Clive Lewis is name emerging, the Shadow Business Secretary. A lot of

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the Labour left, people like Paul Mason, really like him and would

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like to see him in Corbyn. I think that's why Jeremy Corbyn do

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something extraordinary next week and abstain from Article 50, the

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main bill itself, to keep his Shadow Cabinet together. That clip on

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Andrew Marr, point blank refusing to say if Labour will vote for Article

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50. The only way Jeremy Corbyn can hold this mess together now is to

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abstain, which would be catastrophic across Brexit constituencies in the

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North. The problem with abstention is everyone will say on the issue of

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our time, the official opposition hasn't got coherent or considered

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policy? I love the way Emily Thornberry said the country is

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divided and we represent the country, in other words we are

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divided at the party as well. The other thing that was a crucial

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moment this week is the debate over whether there should be a so-called

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meaningful vote by MPs on the deal that Theresa May gets. That is a

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point of real danger for Brexit supporters. It may well be there is

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a coalition of Labour and SNP and Remain MPs, Tory MPs, who vote for

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that so-called meaningful vote that could undermine Theresa May's

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negotiation. So Theresa May could have had troubles as well, not plain

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sailing for her? There is no point, apart from lonely Ken Clarke voting

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against Article 50, no point in Tory remainders rebelling. It would have

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been a token gesture with no support. But there might be

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meaningful amendments. One might be on the status of EU nationals... The

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government could lose that. There might be a majority for some of

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those amendments. The ins and outs of the Labour Party, it fascinates

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the Labour Party and journalists. I suspect the country has just moved

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on and doesn't care. You are probably quite right. To be honest I

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struggled to get Labour split stories in my paper any more, the

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bar is so high to make it news. Where it does matter is now not

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everyone will pay huge amounts to the -- of attention to the vote on

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Wednesday. But come the general election in 2020, maybe a little

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earlier, every Tory leaflet and every labour constituency will say

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this guy, this goal, they refuse to vote for Brexit, do you want them in

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power? That is going to be really hard for them. The story next week

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may be Tory splits rather than just Labour ones, we will see.

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Theresa May has made a big deal out of her commitment to help people

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on middle incomes who are "just about managing", and early this week

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we should get a good sense of what that means in practice -

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when plans to bring down the cost of housing and protect renters

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are published in the Government's new white paper.

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Theresa May has promised she'll kick off Brexit negotiations with the EU

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by the end of March, and after months of shadow-boxing

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Ellie Price reports on the battle to come over the UK's Brexit bill,

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and the likely costs and savings once we've left.

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It was the figure that defined the EU referendum campaign.

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It was also a figure that was fiercely disputed, but the promise -

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vote leave and Britain won't have to pay into the EU are any more.

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So, is that what's going to happen now?

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The trouble with buses is you tend to have to wait for them

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and when Theresa May triggers Article 50, the clock starts

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She needs something quicker, something more sporty.

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According to the most recent Treasury figures,

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Britain's gross contribution to the EU, after the rebate

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is taken into account, is about ?14 billion a year.

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There are some complicating factors that means it can go up

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or down year on year, but that's roughly how much the UK

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will no longer sending to Brussels post-Brexit.

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But, there are other payments that Britain will have to shell out for.

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First and foremost, the so-called divorce settlement.

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It is being said, and openly by Commissioner Barnier

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and others in the Commission, that the total financial liability

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as they see it might be in the order of 40-60 billion

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The BBC understands the figure EU negotiators are likely

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to settle on is far lower, around 34 billion euros,

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but what does the money they are going to argue

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Well, that's how much Britain owes for stuff in the EU budget that's

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already signed up for until 2020, one year after we are

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Historically, Britain pays 12% in contributions,

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so the cost to the UK is likely to be between ten

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Then they will look at the 200-250 billion euros of underfunded

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spending commitments, the so-called RAL.

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Britain could also be liable for around 5-7 billion euros

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for its share in the pensions bill for EU staff, that's again

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12% of an overall bill of 50-60 billion.

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Finally there's a share of our assets held by the EU.

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They include things like this building, the European Commission

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Britain could argue it deserves a share back of around 18 billion

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euros from a portfolio that's said to be worth 153 billion euros.

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So, lots for the two sides to discuss in two years of talks.

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They have a great opportunity with the Article 50 talks

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because actually they can hold us to ransom.

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They can say, "You figure out money, we will talk about your trade.

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But until you've figured out the money, we won't," so I think

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a lot of European states think they are in a very strong

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negotiating position at the moment and they intend to make

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The principle is clear, the days of Britain making vast

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contributions to the European Union every year will end.

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Theresa May has already indicated that she would want to sign back up

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to a number of EU agencies on a program-by-program basis.

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The Europol for example, that's the European crime

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agency, or Erasmus Plus, which wants student exchanges.

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If everything stays the same as it is now, it would cost the UK

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675 million euros a year, based on analysis by

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But there are likely to be agencies we don't choose to participate in.

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If we only opted back to those dealing with security,

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trade, universities and, say, climate change,

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it could come with a price tag of 370 million euros per year.

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Of course that's if our European neighbours allow us.

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I wonder if they're going to let me in!

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There will also be a cost to creating a new system to resolve

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trade disputes with other nations once we are no longer part

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Take the EFTA Court which rules on disputes

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between the EU and Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein.

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That costs 4 million euros to run each year,

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though in the Brexit White Paper published this week,

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the Government said it will not be constrained by precedent

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Finally, would the EU get behind the idea of Britain making some

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contribution for some preferential access to its market?

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The sort of thing that Theresa May seems to be hinting

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at are sectoral arrangements, some kind of partial membership

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Switzerland, which has a far less wide-ranging deal than Norway,

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pays about 320 million a year for what it gets into the EU budget,

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but it's not exactly the Swiss deal that we're after.

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The EU institutions hate the Swiss deal because it is codified

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in a huge number of treaties that are messy, complicated

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and cumbersome, and they really don't want to replicate

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Theresa May has been at pains to insist she's in the driving seat

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when it comes to these negotiations, and that she's

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But with so much money up for discussion, it may not be such

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Sadly she didn't get to keep the car!

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And I've been joined to discuss the Brexit balance sheet

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by the director of the Centre for European Reform, Charles Grant,

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and by Henry Newman who runs the think tank Open Europe.

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Henry Newman, these figures that are being thrown about in Brussels at

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the moment, and exit bill of 40-60,000,000,000. What do you make

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of them? I think it is an opening gambit from the institutions and we

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should take them seriously. We listened to Mr Rogers, the former

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ambassador to Brussels in the House of Commons last week, speaking about

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the sort of positions the EU is likely to take in the negotiation. I

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personally think the Prime Minister should be more concerned about

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getting the right sort of trade arrangements, subsequent to our

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departure, than worrying about the exact detail of the divorce

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settlement and the Bill. They might not let them go on to trade until

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they resolve this matter. Where does the Brexit bill, the cost of exit,

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if there is to be one, in terms of a sum of money, where does that come

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in the negotiations, upfront or at the end? The European Commission has

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a firm line on this. You have to talk about the Brexit bill and the

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divorce settlement before you talk about the future relationship.

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Therefore they are saying if you don't sign up for 60 billion or

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thereabouts, we won't talk about the future. Other member states take a

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softer line than that and think you probably have to talk about the

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divorce settlement and Brexit bill as the same -- at the same time as

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the economic situation. If you can do both at the same time, the

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atmosphere may be better natured. You have spoken to people in

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Brussels and are part of a think tank, how Revista gives the figure

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or is it an opening gambit? Most member states and EU institutions

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believe they think it is the true figure but when the negotiations

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start adding the number will come down. As long as the British are

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prepared to sign up to the principle of we owe you a bit of money, as the

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cheque, then people will compromise. What is the ballpark? You had a

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figure of 34 billion, that is news to me, nobody knows because

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negotiations haven't started but I think something lower than 60. Even

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60 would be politically toxic for a British government? I think Theresa

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May is in a strong position, she has united the Conservative Party. You

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could expect coming into this year all the Conservative divisions would

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be laid bare by Gina Miller. But she is leading a united party. Labour

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Party are divided... Coogee get away with paying 30 billion? We should

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give her the benefit of the doubt going into these negotiations, let

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her keep her cards close to her chest. The speech he gave a few

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weeks ago at Lancaster House, our judgment was she laid out as much

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detail as we could have expected at that point. I don't think it's

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helpful for us now to say, we shouldn't be introducing further red

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line. I want you to be helpful and find things out. I would suggest if

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there is a bill, let's say it's 30 billion, let's make it half of what

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the current claims coming out of Brussels. And of course it won't

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have to be paid in one year, I assume it's not one cheque but

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spread over. But we will wait a long time for that 350 million a week or

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what ever it was that was meant to come from Brussels to spend on the

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NHS. That's not going to happen for the next five, six or seven years.

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Everyone has been clear there will be a phased exit programme. The

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question of whether something is political possible for her in terms

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of the divorce settlement will depend on what she gets from the

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European Union in those negotiations. If she ends up

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settling for a bill of about 30 billion which I think would be

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politically... No matter how popular she is, politically very difficult

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for her, it does kill any idea there is a Brexit dividend for Britain.

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Some of the senior officials in London and Brussels are worried this

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issue could crash the talks because it may be possible for Theresa May

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to accept a Brexit bill of 30 billion and if there is no deal and

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will leave EU without a settlement, there is massive legal uncertainty.

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What contract law applies? Can our planes take off from Heathrow?

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Nobody knows what legal rights there are for an EU citizen living here

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and vice versa. If there is no deal at the end of two years, it is quite

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bad for the European economy, therefore they think they have all

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the cards to play and they think if it is mishandled domestically in

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Britain than we have a crash. But there will be competing interests in

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Europe, the Baltic states, Eastern Europe, maybe quite similar of the

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Nordic states, that in turn different from the French, Germans

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or Italians. How will Europe come to a common view on these things? At

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the moment they are quite united backing a strong line, except for

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the polls and Hungarians who are the bad boys of Europe and the Irish who

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will do anything to keep us happy. We should remember their priority is

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not economics, they are not thinking how can they maximise trade with the

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UK, they are under threat. The combination of Trump and Brexit

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scares them. They want to keep the institutions strong. They also want

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to keep Britain. That is the one strong card we have, contributing to

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security. We know we won't be members of the single market, that

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was in the White Paper. The situation of the customs union is

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more complicated I would suggest. Does that have cost? If we can be a

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little bit pregnant in the customs union, does that come with a price

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ticket? We have got some clarity on the customs union, the Prime

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Minister said we would not be part of the... We would be able to do our

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own trade deals outside the EU customs union, and also not be part

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of the common external tariff. She said she is willing to look at other

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options and we don't know what that will be so as a think tank we are

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looking at this over the next few weeks and coming up with

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recommendations for the Government and looking at how existing

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boundaries between the EU customs union and other states work in

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practice. For example between Switzerland and the EU border,

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Norway and Switzerland, and the UK and Canada. We will want is a

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country the freedom to do our own free trade deals, that seems to be

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quite high up there, and to change our external tariffs to the rest of

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the world. If that's the case, we do seem to be wanting our cake and

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eating it in the customs union. Talking to some people in London, it

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is quite clear we are leaving the essentials of the customs union, the

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tariff, so even if we can minimise controls at the border by having

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mutual recognition agreements, so we recognise each other's standards,

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but there will still have to be checks for things like rules of

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origin and tariffs if tariffs apply, which is a problem for the Irish

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because nobody has worked out how you can avoid having some sort of

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customs control on the border between Northern Ireland and the

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South once we are out of the customs union. I think it's important we

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don't look at this too much as one side has to win and one side has to

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lose scenario. We can find ways. My Broadview is what we get out of the

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negotiation will depend on politics more than economic reality. Economic

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reality is strong, there's a good case for a trade deal on the

:20:01.:20:17.

solution on the customs deal, but Britain will need to come up with a

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positive case for our relationship and keep making that case. If it

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turns out the Government thinks the bill is too high, that we can't

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really get the free trade deal done in time and it's left hanging in the

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wind, what are the chances, how I as things stand now that we end up

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crashing out? I'd say there's a 30% chance that we don't get the free

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trade agreement at the end of it that Mrs May is aiming for. The very

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hard crash is you don't even do an Article 50 divorce settlement from

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you go straight to World Trade Organisation rules. The less hard

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crash is doing the divorce settlement and transitional

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arrangements would require European Court of Justice arrangements. We

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will leave it there. Thank you, both.

:21:00.:21:00.

Donald Trump's flagship policy of extreme vetting of immigrants

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and a temporary travel ban for citizens of seven mainly-muslim

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countries was stopped in its tracks this weekend.

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On Friday a judge ruled the ban should be lifted and that it

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That prompted President Trump to fire off a series of tweets

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criticising what he says was a terrible decision

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by a so-called judge, as he ordered the State Department

:21:19.:21:20.

Now the federal appeals court has rejected his request to reinstate

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the ban until it hears the case in full.

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Well yesterday I spoke to Sebastian Gorka, Deputy Assistant

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I asked him if the confusion over the travel ban

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was a sign that the President's two-week-old administration

:21:48.:21:49.

There is no chaos, you really shouldn't believe the spin, the

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facts speak for themselves. 109 people on Saturday were mildly

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inconvenienced by having their entry into the United States delayed out

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of 325,000. So let's not get carried away with the left-wing media bias

:22:15.:22:23.

and spin. Hold on, 60,000 - 90,000 people with visas, their visas are

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no longer valid. That's another issue. You need to listen to what

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I'm saying. The people who entered on the day of the executive order

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being implemented worth 109 people out of 325. Whether people won't

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travelling to America were affected is another matter, so there is no

:22:45.:22:53.

chaos to comment on. Following Iran's latest missile tests,

:22:54.:22:58.

National Security adviser Flint said the US was "Putting Iran on notice",

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what does that mean? It means we have a new president and we are not

:23:05.:23:07.

going to facilitate the rise of one of the most dangerous nations in the

:23:08.:23:13.

world. We are jettisoning this naive and dangerous policy of the Obama

:23:14.:23:21.

Administration to try and make the Shi'ite dictatorial democracy some

:23:22.:23:25.

kind of counter balance to extremist Sunni groups in the region and that

:23:26.:23:29.

they cannot continue to behave in the way they have behaved for the

:23:30.:23:33.

last 30 years. It is a very simple message. So are there any

:23:34.:23:39.

multilateral alliances that Mr Trump would like to strengthen?

:23:40.:23:45.

Absolutely. If we are looking at the region, if you listen to what

:23:46.:23:48.

President Trump has said and specifically to also the speeches of

:23:49.:23:53.

general Flint, his national security adviser, we are incredibly vested in

:23:54.:23:58.

seeing our Sunni allies in the region come together in a real

:23:59.:24:05.

coalition. The so-called vaunted 66 nation coalition that was created

:24:06.:24:11.

under the Obama administration... There was no coalition. But we want

:24:12.:24:16.

to help our Sunni allies, especially the Egyptians, the Jordanians, come

:24:17.:24:23.

together in a real partnership to take the fight to ISIS and groups

:24:24.:24:30.

like Al-Qaeda. But there is not a formal multilateral alliance with

:24:31.:24:35.

these countries. Which of the existing, formal multilateral

:24:36.:24:39.

alliances does Mr Trump wants to strengthen? If you are specifically

:24:40.:24:43.

talking about Nato, it is clear that we are committed to Nato but we wish

:24:44.:24:48.

to see a more equitable burden sharing among the nations that are

:24:49.:24:51.

simply not spending enough on their own defence so the gentleman 's

:24:52.:24:56.

agreement of 2% of GDP has to be stuck to, unlike the, I think it's

:24:57.:25:00.

only Six Nations that reach the standard today out of almost 30. So

:25:01.:25:05.

he does want to strengthen Nato then? Absolutely, he believes Nato

:25:06.:25:16.

is the most successful military alliances. You mustn't believe the

:25:17.:25:22.

spin and hype. EU leaders now see the Trump administration as a threat

:25:23.:25:26.

up there with Russia, China, terrorism. What's your response to

:25:27.:25:33.

that? I have to laugh. The idea that the nation that came to the

:25:34.:25:38.

salvation of Europe twice in the 20th century hummer in World War I

:25:39.:25:45.

and World War II, was central to the defeat of the totalitarian... It is

:25:46.:25:56.

not even worth commenting on. Would it matter to the Trump

:25:57.:26:00.

administration if the European Union broke up? The United States is very

:26:01.:26:04.

interested in the best relations possible with all the nations of the

:26:05.:26:11.

EU am a whether the European union wishes to stay together or not is up

:26:12.:26:16.

to the nations of the European Union. I understand that but I was

:26:17.:26:22.

wondering what the US view would be. Until Mr Trump, EU foreign policy

:26:23.:26:27.

was quite consistent in wanting to see the EU survive, prosper and even

:26:28.:26:31.

become more integrated. Now that doesn't seem to be the case, so

:26:32.:26:35.

would it matter to the Trump administration if the EU broke up? I

:26:36.:26:40.

will say yet again, it is in the interests of the United States to

:26:41.:26:43.

have the best relations possible with our European allies, and

:26:44.:26:48.

whether that is in the formation of the EU or if the EU by itself

:26:49.:26:52.

suffers some kind of internal issues, that's up to the European

:26:53.:26:56.

nations and not something we will comment on. Listening to that

:26:57.:27:01.

answer, it would seem as if this particular president's preference is

:27:02.:27:06.

to deal with individual nation states rather than multilateral

:27:07.:27:11.

institutions. Is that fair? I don't think so. There's never been an

:27:12.:27:18.

unequivocal statement by that effect by the statement. Does he share the

:27:19.:27:22.

opinion of Stephen Bannon that the 21st century should see a return to

:27:23.:27:27.

nation states rather than growing existing multilateral ways? I think

:27:28.:27:33.

it is fair to say that we have problems with political elites that

:27:34.:27:36.

don't take the interests of the populations they represent into

:27:37.:27:42.

account. That's why Brexit happened. I think that's why Mr Trump became

:27:43.:27:47.

President Trump. This is the connected phenomena. You are

:27:48.:27:52.

obsessing about institutions, it is not about institutions, it's about

:27:53.:27:55.

the health of democracy and whether political elites do what is in the

:27:56.:28:00.

interests of the people they represent. Given the

:28:01.:28:03.

unpredictability of the new president, you never really know

:28:04.:28:06.

what he's going to do next, would it be wise for the British Prime

:28:07.:28:11.

Minister to hitch her wagon to his star? This is really churlish

:28:12.:28:18.

questioning. Come on, you don't know what he's going to do next, listen

:28:19.:28:21.

to what he says because he does what he's going to say. I know this may

:28:22.:28:27.

be shocking to some reporters, but look at his campaign promises, and

:28:28.:28:31.

the fact that in the last 15 days we have executed every single one that

:28:32.:28:37.

we could in the time permissible so there is nothing unpredictable about

:28:38.:28:42.

Donald Trump as president. OK then, if we do know what he's going to do

:28:43.:28:48.

next, what is he going to do next? Continue to make good on his

:28:49.:28:52.

election promises, to make America great again, to make the economy are

:28:53.:28:59.

flourishing economy, and most important of all from your

:29:00.:29:03.

perspective in the UK, to be the best friend possible to our friends

:29:04.:29:08.

and the worst enemy to our enemies. It is an old Marine Corps phrase and

:29:09.:29:13.

we tend to live by it. Thank you for your time, we will leave it there.

:29:14.:29:20.

Doctor Gorka, making it clear this administration won't spend political

:29:21.:29:27.

capital on trying to keep the European Union together, a watershed

:29:28.:29:29.

change in American foreign policy. Theresa May has made a big deal out

:29:30.:29:31.

of her commitment to help people on middle incomes who are "just

:29:32.:29:35.

about managing", and early this week we should get a good sense

:29:36.:29:38.

of what that means in practice - when plans to bring down the cost

:29:39.:29:41.

of housing and protect renters are published in the Government's

:29:42.:29:44.

new white paper. The paper is expected to introduce

:29:45.:29:46.

new rules on building Communities Secretary Sajid Javid

:29:47.:29:48.

has previously said politicians should not stand in the way

:29:49.:29:54.

of development, provided all options Also rumoured are new measures

:29:55.:29:56.

to speed up building the 1 million new homes the Government promised

:29:57.:30:01.

to build by 2020, including imposing five-year quotas

:30:02.:30:03.

on reluctant councils. Reports suggest there will be

:30:04.:30:07.

relaxation of building height restrictions,

:30:08.:30:09.

allowing home owners and developers to build to the height

:30:10.:30:11.

of the tallest building on the block without needing to seek

:30:12.:30:14.

planning permission. Other elements trialled include

:30:15.:30:20.

new measures to stop developers sitting on parcels of land

:30:21.:30:24.

without building homes, land banking, and moving railway

:30:25.:30:26.

station car parks Underground, The Government today said it

:30:27.:30:28.

will amend planning rules so more homes can be built specifically

:30:29.:30:36.

to be rented out through longer term tenancies, to provide more stability

:30:37.:30:39.

for young families, alongside its proposed ban

:30:40.:30:41.

on letting agent fees. And the Housing Minister,

:30:42.:30:49.

Gavin Barwell, joins me now. Welcome to the programme. Home

:30:50.:30:58.

ownership is now beyond the reach of most young people. You are now

:30:59.:31:01.

emphasising affordable homes for rent. Why have you given up on the

:31:02.:31:06.

Tory dream of a property owning democracy? We haven't given up on

:31:07.:31:10.

that. The decline on home ownership in this country started in 2004. So

:31:11.:31:14.

far we have stopped that decline, we haven't reversed it but we

:31:15.:31:18.

absolutely want to make sure that people who want to own and can do

:31:19.:31:23.

so. The Prime Minister was very clear a country that works for

:31:24.:31:26.

everyone. That means we have to have say something to say to those who

:31:27.:31:29.

want to rent as well as on. Home ownership of young people is 35%,

:31:30.:31:34.

used to be 60%. Are you telling me during the lifetime of this

:31:35.:31:39.

government that is going to rise? We want to reverse the decline. We have

:31:40.:31:44.

stabilised it. The decline started in 2004 under Labour. They weren't

:31:45.:31:48.

bothered about it. We have taken action and that has stop the

:31:49.:31:52.

decline... What about the rise? We have to make sure people work hard

:31:53.:31:56.

the right thing have the chance to own their home on home. We have

:31:57.:32:00.

helped people through help to buy, shared ownership, that is part of

:32:01.:32:04.

it, but we have to have something to say to those who want to rent. You

:32:05.:32:08.

say you want more rented homes so why did you introduce a 3%

:32:09.:32:14.

additional stamp duty levied to pay those investing in build to rent

:32:15.:32:18.

properties? That was basically to try and stop a lot of the

:32:19.:32:22.

speculation in the buy to let market. The Bank of England raised

:32:23.:32:25.

concerns about that. When you see the white paper, you will see there

:32:26.:32:30.

is a package of measures for Bill to rent, trying to get institutional

:32:31.:32:37.

investment for that, different to people going and buying a home on

:32:38.:32:41.

the private market and renting out. You are trying to get institutional

:32:42.:32:45.

money to comment, just as this government and subsequent ones

:32:46.:32:48.

before said it would get pension fund money to invest in

:32:49.:32:51.

infrastructure and it never happened. Why should this happen? Is

:32:52.:32:56.

already starting to happen. If you go around the country you can see

:32:57.:32:59.

some of these builder rent scheme is happening. There are changes in the

:33:00.:33:03.

White Paper... How much money from institutions is going into bill to

:33:04.:33:14.

rent modular hundreds of millions. I was at the stock exchange the other

:33:15.:33:17.

day celebrating the launch of one of our bombs designed to get this money

:33:18.:33:19.

on. There are schemes being... There is huge potential to expand it. We

:33:20.:33:22.

need more homes and we are too dependent on a small number of large

:33:23.:33:25.

developers. -- to launch one of our bonds. You talk about affordable

:33:26.:33:32.

renting, what is affordable? Defined as something that is at least 20%

:33:33.:33:38.

below the market price. It will vary around the country. Let me put it

:33:39.:33:42.

another way. The average couple renting now have to spend 50% of

:33:43.:33:47.

their income on rent. Is that affordable? That is exactly what

:33:48.:33:50.

we're trying to do something about. Whether you're trying to buy or

:33:51.:33:53.

rent, housing in this country has become less and less affordable

:33:54.:33:57.

because the 30-40 years governments haven't built in times. This white

:33:58.:34:01.

Paper is trying to do something about that. You have been in power

:34:02.:34:05.

six, almost seven years. That's right. Why are ownership of new

:34:06.:34:13.

homes to 24 year low? It was a low figure because it's a new five-year

:34:14.:34:16.

programme. That is not a great excuse. It's not an excuse at all.

:34:17.:34:21.

The way these things work, you have a five-year programme and in the

:34:22.:34:24.

last year you have a record number of delivery and when you start a new

:34:25.:34:28.

programme, a lower level. If you look at the average over six years,

:34:29.:34:32.

this government has built more affordable housing than the previous

:34:33.:34:37.

one. Stiletto 24 year loss, that is an embarrassment. Yes. We have the

:34:38.:34:44.

figures, last year was 32,000, the year before 60 6000. You get this

:34:45.:34:46.

cliff edge effect. It is embarrassing and we want to stop it

:34:47.:34:52.

happening in the future. You want to give tenants more secure and longer

:34:53.:34:56.

leases which rent rises are predictable in advance. Ed Miliband

:34:57.:35:02.

promoted three-year tenancies in the 2015 general election campaign and

:35:03.:35:06.

George Osborne said it was totally economically illiterate. What's

:35:07.:35:12.

changed? You are merging control of the rents people in charge, which

:35:13.:35:16.

we're not imposing. We want longer term tenancies. Most people have

:35:17.:35:21.

six-month tenancies... Within that there would be a control on how much

:35:22.:35:25.

the rent could go up? Right? It would be set for the period of the

:35:26.:35:30.

tenancies. That's what I just said, that's what Ed Miliband proposed. Ed

:35:31.:35:34.

Miliband proposed regulating it for the whole sector. One of the reasons

:35:35.:35:39.

institutional investment is so attractive, if you had a spare home

:35:40.:35:43.

and you want to rent out, you might need it any year, so you give it a

:35:44.:35:48.

short tenancy. If you have a block, they are interested in a long-term

:35:49.:35:52.

return and give families more security. You have set a target,

:35:53.:35:59.

your government, to build in the life of this parliament 1 million

:36:00.:36:02.

new homes in England by 2020. You're not going to make that? I think we

:36:03.:36:10.

are. If you look at 2015-16 we had 190,000 additional homes of this

:36:11.:36:13.

country. Just below the level we need to achieve. Over five...

:36:14.:36:21.

2015-16. You were probably looking at the new homes built. Talking

:36:22.:36:27.

about completions in England. That is not the best measure, with

:36:28.:36:31.

respect. You said you will complete 1 million homes by 2020 so what is

:36:32.:36:36.

wrong with it? We use a national statistic which looks at new homes

:36:37.:36:40.

built and conversions and changes of use minus demolitions. The total

:36:41.:36:43.

change of the housing stock over that year. On that basis I have the

:36:44.:36:49.

figures here. I have the figures. You looking I just completed. 1

:36:50.:36:54.

million new homes, the average rate of those built in the last three

:36:55.:36:59.

quarters was 30 6000. You have 14 more quarters to get to the 1

:37:00.:37:03.

million. You have to raise that to 50 6000. I put it to you, you won't

:37:04.:37:08.

do it. You're not looking at the full picture of new housing in this

:37:09.:37:12.

country. You're looking at brand-new homes and not including conversions

:37:13.:37:16.

or changes of use are not taking off, which we should, demolitions.

:37:17.:37:21.

If you look at the National statistic net additions, in 2015-16,

:37:22.:37:27.

100 and 90,000 new homes. We are behind schedule. -- 190,000. I am

:37:28.:37:32.

confident with the measures in the White Paper we can achieve that. It

:37:33.:37:36.

is not just about the national total, we need to build these homes

:37:37.:37:40.

are the right places. Will the green belt remain sacrosanct after the

:37:41.:37:47.

white paper? Not proposing to change the existing protections that there

:37:48.:37:50.

for green belts. What planning policy says is councils can remove

:37:51.:37:55.

land from green belts but only in exceptional circumstances and should

:37:56.:37:57.

look at at all the circumstances before doing that. No change? No. We

:37:58.:38:03.

have a manifesto commitment. You still think you will get 1 million

:38:04.:38:09.

homes? The green belt is only 15%. This idea we can only fix our broken

:38:10.:38:13.

housing market by taking huge swathes of land out of the green

:38:14.:38:16.

belt is not true. We will leave it there, thank you for joining us,

:38:17.:38:19.

Gavin Barwell. It is coming up to 11.40.

:38:20.:38:21.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:22.:38:24.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead...

:38:25.:38:34.

A Labour and Conservative MP join forces to try

:38:35.:38:44.

and save their local hospital services - but they don't agree

:38:45.:38:46.

With me to discuss the NHS, the Copeland by-election and that

:38:47.:38:52.

Brexit vote in Parliament - are my guests - the Labour MP

:38:53.:38:55.

for Houghton and Sunderland South, Bridget Phillipson.

:38:56.:38:58.

And the Conservative MP for Hexham, Guy Opperman.

:38:59.:39:02.

But let's kick off with Donald Trump.

:39:03.:39:09.

There's been protests across the North East this week over

:39:10.:39:11.

And 150 MPs think the President should be barred from addressing

:39:12.:39:15.

Parliament when he arrives here on his state visit.

:39:16.:39:22.

Bridget Phillipson, I didn't see your name on that Commons motion

:39:23.:39:25.

asking for the president to be barred from Parliament.

:39:26.:39:27.

I find Donald Trump's politics pretty offensive and what he has

:39:28.:39:31.

done in the last few weeks are borrowed, but we don't always

:39:32.:39:34.

get to choose who we work with and the American people have

:39:35.:39:37.

chosen to elect Donald Trump as their president.

:39:38.:39:39.

So I am sure that should the visit go ahead, that British people

:39:40.:39:43.

will make their views known in their usual traditions.

:39:44.:39:46.

That is not a matter for MPs to decide.

:39:47.:39:50.

I can't say I will be dashing along to listen to him,

:39:51.:39:53.

but these are matters in the hands of the government and rest

:39:54.:39:57.

Guy Opperman, is President Trump a man deserving of that honour?

:39:58.:40:05.

We always invite every US president to come and make

:40:06.:40:11.

That is their decision whether they wish to do so.

:40:12.:40:16.

But my point is that it is democracy.

:40:17.:40:19.

This man was elected by the American people.

:40:20.:40:21.

We need to work with him and move forward with America who is one

:40:22.:40:24.

A state visit so soon is pretty unusual, I would say that.

:40:25.:40:29.

It's one thing for him to come and visit the UK,

:40:30.:40:32.

You don't need to like him, but you have to work with him.

:40:33.:40:36.

OK. Some agreement, perhaps.

:40:37.:40:39.

The battle lines between the parties over the health

:40:40.:40:42.

Labour says the NHS is in crisis due to underfunding.

:40:43.:40:46.

The Government say more money is being put into

:40:47.:40:48.

So it's unusual, to say the least, when a Labour and a Conservative MP

:40:49.:40:52.

join forces to try and save services which they say are under

:40:53.:40:59.

It is usually a vicious battleground between Labour

:41:00.:41:07.

and Conservatives but in our region, the NHS has brought two

:41:08.:41:09.

And it matters hugely to everybody who lives in Darlington and beyond,

:41:10.:41:13.

that we keep our hospital the way it is.

:41:14.:41:15.

We don't want to see a downgrade of our A E,

:41:16.:41:18.

we don't want to lose our consultant-led maternity unit.

:41:19.:41:22.

If we were to lose certain services at Darlington Hospital,

:41:23.:41:27.

some of my constituents would be faced with a 120-mile

:41:28.:41:29.

round trip to get to the next available hospital.

:41:30.:41:34.

North Tees and Stockton faces the same threat whilst James Cook

:41:35.:41:38.

in Middlesbrough would be enhanced, providing round-the-clock

:41:39.:41:40.

The Tees, County Durham and North Yorkshire NHS area

:41:41.:41:44.

is projected to be ?281 million over budget by 2021.

:41:45.:41:49.

The clinicians say the proposals are not about cutting costs.

:41:50.:41:54.

Even if patients travel past the local hospital to get

:41:55.:41:57.

to the specialist centre, where there are specialists

:41:58.:41:59.

from multiple sites, the outcomes are improved.

:42:00.:42:03.

There is a 30% reduction in mortality with that change

:42:04.:42:06.

If we change services and provide better outcomes,

:42:07.:42:12.

we can actually do it with less cost.

:42:13.:42:15.

This weekend, people from across the region marched

:42:16.:42:18.

Campaigners feel these plans are not being fully explained.

:42:19.:42:24.

I don't think they have been clear with people.

:42:25.:42:27.

It is absolutely disingenuous beyond belief to say that there

:42:28.:42:30.

Ask anyone who has been to them who is a member of the public.

:42:31.:42:41.

It is difficult because we have got to try and be open and honest

:42:42.:42:44.

and describe what the issues are, we have also got to listen

:42:45.:42:48.

to the public with real concerns that you have already described

:42:49.:42:51.

and use their feedback to influence and modify

:42:52.:42:56.

So the clinicians who drew up these hospital plans insist

:42:57.:43:02.

they are about improving care but a near ?300 million black hole

:43:03.:43:06.

We know it is underfunded, we know it has been mismanaged.

:43:07.:43:16.

We know the government wasted ?3 billion reorganising the NHS

:43:17.:43:18.

in the last Parliament that wasn't needed, hasn't worked,

:43:19.:43:21.

hasn't given any single benefit whatsoever to patients.

:43:22.:43:26.

We have seen that there are 10,000 more doctors,

:43:27.:43:28.

10,000 more nurses in the NHS than there were five years ago.

:43:29.:43:31.

So this is not just about money, this is about the design

:43:32.:43:34.

So even when Labour and Conservative MPs can find a common

:43:35.:43:39.

cause in the NHS locally, cross-party harmony on the issue

:43:40.:43:42.

Guy Opperman, members of the public we saw there looking at this as NHS

:43:43.:43:53.

Services they value being potentially lost.

:43:54.:43:57.

What is your view of the plans and what is driving them?

:43:58.:44:00.

I think you need to listen to the doctor who you had on your clip.

:44:01.:44:04.

The doctor was saying this is about a clinical need

:44:05.:44:07.

and is about making sure that the services work

:44:08.:44:09.

I owe my life repeatedly as a patient to the NHS.

:44:10.:44:15.

I have seen the difference it makes when you have local decision-making.

:44:16.:44:18.

You have local clinicians making local decisions.

:44:19.:44:22.

And the reason you have got the two MPs involved

:44:23.:44:25.

is that they are representing their local community.

:44:26.:44:27.

And that local community is being engaged in a process

:44:28.:44:31.

which sees the best possible delivery of local food services.

:44:32.:44:41.

But we have a Conservative MP opposing these plans because it is

:44:42.:44:46.

Because there are hundreds of millions of pounds trying to be

:44:47.:44:51.

saved in this process. You are getting it wrong.

:44:52.:44:53.

What he is doing is that he is quite rightly standing up for his local

:44:54.:44:57.

As are repeated MPs up and down the country.

:44:58.:45:02.

That is making the case for how it is...

:45:03.:45:05.

But if it is about making patients safer, what is he objecting to it?

:45:06.:45:08.

No, he's merely saying that that particular hospital is the one

:45:09.:45:11.

that he prefers to have those particular services rather

:45:12.:45:13.

than any other hospital. Right, OK.

:45:14.:45:14.

Bridget Philipson, Labour MPs want to make a with this.

:45:15.:45:22.

-- Labour MPs want to make hay with this.

:45:23.:45:26.

But it is not a cuts operation, it is about trying to look

:45:27.:45:30.

at what is best for making sure that patients are safe.

:45:31.:45:33.

There are savings to be made, that is natural, isn't it?

:45:34.:45:35.

I think there is always a balance to strike in making sure that

:45:36.:45:38.

you have services that are accessible to local people

:45:39.:45:40.

But let's be clear about why these decisions are being taken.

:45:41.:45:44.

It is because the NHS is facing an unprecedented funding crisis.

:45:45.:45:47.

The chief executive of the NHS has been very clear that the NHS is not

:45:48.:45:50.

getting the money it needs and the amount of funding per head

:45:51.:45:53.

of population will be spent on each person within the NHS

:45:54.:45:56.

Whatever the NHS say about giving the NHS the money it needs.

:45:57.:46:00.

They are not. It is set to fall.

:46:01.:46:02.

I will he bring you back in a second, Guy.

:46:03.:46:05.

The point is, if you listen to Labour, no service

:46:06.:46:07.

would ever be altered, no saving would ever be made,

:46:08.:46:09.

everything would be kept as it is. And that is just not realistic.

:46:10.:46:14.

Your party wasn't pledging to do that at the last election.

:46:15.:46:17.

I think it is right that MPs represent the views

:46:18.:46:19.

of their constituents and as we saw in that piece, local campaigners

:46:20.:46:22.

in Darlington and other parts of the North East such as Tyneside

:46:23.:46:25.

have got real concerns about this process and don't feel

:46:26.:46:28.

But I think we need to be really clear about where the responsibility

:46:29.:46:32.

It is it is with the Tory government in Westminster,

:46:33.:46:35.

I think that sums up the labour position.

:46:36.:46:40.

The whole point about this, this is a local decision, all right?

:46:41.:46:44.

The reason it it is because the NHS themselves and wrote

:46:45.:46:47.

the five-year forward view. They created this.

:46:48.:46:49.

The government has given them more money.

:46:50.:46:52.

Not as much as they said they wanted.

:46:53.:46:54.

Then they have been in a position that there was a local consultation.

:46:55.:46:57.

I just think that you need to compare the situation here.

:46:58.:47:00.

We are engaging with the best way to provide the best

:47:01.:47:02.

Would you accept, though, that at the moment,

:47:03.:47:05.

they are not taking the public, the patients with them on this?

:47:06.:47:08.

I think they are. Are they?

:47:09.:47:10.

The whole process, the discussion that we are having, the local MP

:47:11.:47:12.

Marches on the street, taking patients with them?

:47:13.:47:15.

But the bottom line is this, there should be vociferous

:47:16.:47:19.

and robust engagement with this process.

:47:20.:47:21.

That is what we are doing, that is why beyond your programme,

:47:22.:47:27.

-- that is why we are on your programme,

:47:28.:47:33.

Bridget Philipson, they have been events which the public

:47:34.:47:37.

have been invited to. Plans have been published.

:47:38.:47:39.

Councils are getting to look at them.

:47:40.:47:41.

Any individual changes, such as removing A E or maternity

:47:42.:47:43.

would have to be consulted on the game.

:47:44.:47:45.

I don't think people feel there has been.

:47:46.:47:48.

But as I say, this is part of a much bigger picture

:47:49.:47:51.

I think people will tell you they see it with their own eyes.

:47:52.:47:56.

They know they are waiting longer and longer in A E.

:47:57.:47:59.

They can't get appointments to see their GP.

:48:00.:48:02.

Isn't some of this about tackling that?

:48:03.:48:03.

Looking sensibly about what services you provide where and what is

:48:04.:48:07.

It's right that would take action on things like health

:48:08.:48:11.

inequality in the North East, that we make sure that patients get

:48:12.:48:14.

We all want to be sure that when our loved ones

:48:15.:48:18.

This is what this is about, isn't it?

:48:19.:48:21.

The whole point is, this is what we are trying to do.

:48:22.:48:23.

..to get the best possible care they need.

:48:24.:48:25.

But this should not be about cost pressures,

:48:26.:48:27.

this shouldn't be just about saving money.

:48:28.:48:29.

The NHS, the Chief Executive and the Public Accounts Committee

:48:30.:48:31.

of which I'm a member, have been very clear the NHS is not

:48:32.:48:35.

getting the money it needs and funding per head is set to fall.

:48:36.:48:38.

The NHS budget is going up, even you accept that?

:48:39.:48:41.

I don't want to have an argument about figures.

:48:42.:48:44.

In real terms, from 2018, your Minister...

:48:45.:48:46.

I want to put one last question to Guy Opperman, which is,

:48:47.:48:49.

shouldn't you be braver about this and say, putting more and more

:48:50.:48:52.

money in isn't working, we need to do something different?

:48:53.:48:54.

No, I think what we are doing is we have put more money in.

:48:55.:48:57.

You then have to make a decision, local people, which is what this is,

:48:58.:49:01.

But is never going to be enough and you will have

:49:02.:49:04.

No, what you have is you have local doctors and local clinicians

:49:05.:49:08.

making those decisions. Why?

:49:09.:49:10.

Because the local people know best. All right.

:49:11.:49:12.

We will see what happens with those plans as they continue.

:49:13.:49:22.

It started as an embarrassment for the Government -

:49:23.:49:24.

forced by the courts to hold a vote on Brexit that it didn't

:49:25.:49:27.

But the week ended with Labour yet again in disarray after more

:49:28.:49:31.

than 50 of its MPs - including two in our region -

:49:32.:49:34.

defied a three-line whip imposed by Jeremy Corbyn.

:49:35.:49:36.

Its historic landmarks are testament to our past.

:49:37.:49:40.

But after parliament set the clock ticking on Brexit,

:49:41.:49:42.

public and politicians are looking to the future.

:49:43.:49:44.

For many of the region's MPs, the decision on Article

:49:45.:49:47.

Most of them campaigned to remain in the EU but found themselves

:49:48.:49:51.

But here in the university city of Durham, referendum opinion

:49:52.:49:55.

The local MP says the constituency chose to stay in,

:49:56.:49:58.

I really felt it was important for me as a member of Parliament not

:49:59.:50:03.

to ignore the national vote whilst at the same time trying to recognise

:50:04.:50:07.

And I felt it was very much being in between a rock and a hard

:50:08.:50:13.

place and I thought the best face to be was abstaining.

:50:14.:50:20.

Among local voters, differences about how MPs should respond.

:50:21.:50:23.

They asked for the referendum, they got the answer,

:50:24.:50:26.

At the end of the day, it was only a referendum

:50:27.:50:30.

and it was very close and there is the argument

:50:31.:50:32.

that it isn't really enough evidence for us to leave.

:50:33.:50:34.

While a majority of Labour's benches join Conservatives in backing

:50:35.:50:37.

Article 50 legislation, York's Rachel Maskell left

:50:38.:50:40.

While a Newcastle MP also defied a leader to oppose the bill.

:50:41.:50:48.

I voted against triggering Article 50 at this stage it

:50:49.:50:52.

until the government tell us what their plan is and what they

:50:53.:50:55.

are going to do to make sure our jobs and our industries

:50:56.:50:58.

Most of the region's Labour MPs did vote for the bill

:50:59.:51:03.

52% voted to leave the European Union, but they did not

:51:04.:51:11.

They did not vote to leave the customs union.

:51:12.:51:17.

There is a mandate for Britain's exit from the EU, but there is no

:51:18.:51:20.

mandate for the manner in which we leave.

:51:21.:51:23.

That is by the government must come to this house to inform Parliament

:51:24.:51:26.

of its progress throughout the negotiations and we must be

:51:27.:51:28.

For Teesside's James Wharton, extra reasons for satisfaction.

:51:29.:51:34.

The Conservative MP introduced a private members bill

:51:35.:51:37.

It is now very important that the government and the party,

:51:38.:51:52.

that everyone works together, not just to make this as excess

:51:53.:51:58.

but to respect the very clear message that the people

:51:59.:52:00.

But the fight is still being fought in parties as well as Parliament.

:52:01.:52:04.

This Tyneside Labour member and one-time Jeremy Corbyn

:52:05.:52:06.

supporter, helped organise an open letter to his leader, demanding

:52:07.:52:09.

Over 60% or 65% of the party actually voted to remain.

:52:10.:52:15.

The majority still want us to remain.

:52:16.:52:16.

So we need to become more clear and less confusing our message.

:52:17.:52:19.

The UK in the saddle and setting off in a new direction.

:52:20.:52:22.

But the battle over where that takes us is only just beginning.

:52:23.:52:31.

Bridget Philipson, you did vote for the bill, to trigger Article 50.

:52:32.:52:34.

But I suspect there are members of your local party who would have

:52:35.:52:37.

I think on issues like this, you have to weigh up

:52:38.:52:44.

what your constituents want, what you feel is in their best

:52:45.:52:46.

interest, and the national interest but also with your conscience.

:52:47.:52:50.

And I have been clear since the referendum that the people

:52:51.:52:53.

of Sunderland and the people of Britain voted to leave

:52:54.:52:55.

That was not a decision that I wanted.

:52:56.:52:58.

I campaigned very strongly for remain.

:52:59.:53:00.

Would you accept that your party is in a bit of a tangle,

:53:01.:53:10.

with losing Shadow Cabinet members, people forcing the resignation

:53:11.:53:14.

I do have real sympathy for colleagues, particularly those

:53:15.:53:32.

strongly for remain that they feel that they want

:53:33.:53:36.

And their constituents are telling them they don't want Britain

:53:37.:53:39.

to leave the European Union, they still don't.

:53:40.:53:41.

Was it a mistake to have the three line whip and force MPs

:53:42.:53:44.

No, I don't think it's a mistake to have a whip on such an important

:53:45.:53:49.

issue but I understand why some colleagues, especially

:53:50.:53:50.

those in areas that took a different view to my own,

:53:51.:53:53.

felt that they didn't want to support that.

:53:54.:53:55.

But this is just the start of a process.

:53:56.:53:57.

That is not to say we will accept everything the government put to us.

:53:58.:54:01.

There must be robust debate in the Commons about the form

:54:02.:54:03.

that this will take and we must do everything possible to protect

:54:04.:54:06.

jobs and to protect industry in the North East.

:54:07.:54:08.

Guy Opperman, if Labour MPs like Rachel Maskell

:54:09.:54:10.

and Catherine McKinnell honestly think that this will damage

:54:11.:54:12.

the prospect of their constituents, did they have every right to say,

:54:13.:54:15.

You don't get to choose which bit of democracy

:54:16.:54:22.

You either accept a democratic result, or you don't.

:54:23.:54:25.

We do that with general elections, we do that with parish

:54:26.:54:28.

council elections, we do it with referendums.

:54:29.:54:30.

I think it is naive to then say, well, I didn't like the result,

:54:31.:54:33.

it is entirely right that we look forward.

:54:34.:54:40.

The country has given us the direction, we must make the best

:54:41.:54:43.

of it and we will make a success of it.

:54:44.:54:50.

Once they pushed into this by the type of Brexit your

:54:51.:54:52.

government and Theresa May is pursuing, which is prioritising

:54:53.:54:55.

immigration over the economy and those MPs say, well

:54:56.:54:57.

if it is going to damage the prospects of my constituents,

:54:58.:54:59.

The country has decided, we are going to make

:55:00.:55:04.

They did not necessarily decide on the kind of Brexit

:55:05.:55:08.

that the government put out an White Paper.

:55:09.:55:10.

The White Paper has now been published.

:55:11.:55:11.

I think there is a huge about a detail in there

:55:12.:55:15.

and you have a position where we need to make a success

:55:16.:55:18.

of this but I certainly am going to forge a head with this.

:55:19.:55:21.

Is there anything to be concerned about in terms of jobs

:55:22.:55:25.

and the economy if the government in the White Paper says it

:55:26.:55:28.

will pursue the freest trade deal possible,

:55:29.:55:30.

something which already reassured as a few weeks ago, Nissan.

:55:31.:55:32.

I think there is still a lot to press the government on.

:55:33.:55:35.

We haven't had a great deal of detail.

:55:36.:55:37.

It has taken the government to come kicking and screaming

:55:38.:55:39.

to publish this White Paper, which doesn't necessarily

:55:40.:55:41.

tell us a great deal that we didn't know already.

:55:42.:55:43.

I think it is really important that we remain

:55:44.:55:45.

with the maximum possible access, tariff-free, to the single market,

:55:46.:55:48.

that we stay in the customs union and we protect workers' rights

:55:49.:55:51.

And I will resist anything that puts that at risk and put jobs at risk.

:55:52.:55:55.

Guy Opperman, briefly, Nissan is going to look at this.

:55:56.:55:58.

You have no reassurance for businesses that this

:55:59.:56:00.

is going to be great because you have a wish

:56:01.:56:02.

list without knowing whether you will achieve it.

:56:03.:56:04.

Well, clearly, the country has made a decision and we have got

:56:05.:56:07.

You can see that Nissan has very much endorsed the approach so far

:56:08.:56:11.

and I genuinely believe that we can sort this out.

:56:12.:56:14.

We will see what happens, because we will be

:56:15.:56:16.

Now, nominations have closed for the by-election in Copeland.

:56:17.:56:20.

And Sunderland's bid to be City of Culture was the talking

:56:21.:56:23.

Here's those stories - and the rest of the week's

:56:24.:56:26.

Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson, was on the campaign

:56:27.:56:32.

He told nuclear workers the party was committed to the industry,

:56:33.:56:36.

despite Jeremy Corbyn's personal opposition to nuclear power.

:56:37.:56:38.

Say it loud, saying it clear, refugees are welcome here!

:56:39.:56:40.

Thousands of people gathered at Grey's Monument in Newcastle

:56:41.:56:42.

to protest against US President Donald Trump's

:56:43.:56:45.

A reception is being held at Westminster to promote

:56:46.:56:50.

Sunderland's bid to be City of Culture in 2021.

:56:51.:56:53.

MP Julie Elliott said it was all about harnessing the city's energy.

:56:54.:56:58.

It's a brilliant place and we have got lots to offer

:56:59.:57:00.

And also, getting people to meet people, to have

:57:01.:57:05.

The opportunities we have got, and the things we have already got.

:57:06.:57:10.

And finally, a 12-bed ward at Rothbury Community Hospital

:57:11.:57:14.

Northumberland's clinical commissioning group will now carry

:57:15.:57:19.

Bridget Phillipson, a couple of issues in there.

:57:20.:57:30.

I'm guessing some of your constituents might think there may

:57:31.:57:33.

be more important things for Sunderland to concentrate

:57:34.:57:35.

on than spending time of resources on what some might criticise

:57:36.:57:38.

I think you might get a few complaints about that

:57:39.:57:43.

but I would say it will be fantastic for Sunderland to get this.

:57:44.:57:47.

I think even going through the process of bidding really races

:57:48.:57:50.

There is a lot happening and this would bring further jobs

:57:51.:57:54.

and investment and really draw people into the city.

:57:55.:57:57.

And given that the North East has never had a successful bid,

:57:58.:58:00.

I think it is something that people across the Northeast can get behind.

:58:01.:58:03.

And even if you don't win, it is worth doing?

:58:04.:58:05.

Even though cities that are not successful, and I think Sunderland

:58:06.:58:08.

has a really strong case, even though that bid for it,

:58:09.:58:16.

-- even those cities that bid for it,

:58:17.:58:31.

We have got a lot happening and this will bring further investment.

:58:32.:58:36.

Guy Opperman, is Sunderland right to go for this?

:58:37.:58:38.

Of course they are. End of story.

:58:39.:58:40.

They should go for these things. You support it?

:58:41.:58:42.

Anything good for the North East, I support.

:58:43.:58:45.

This is something good for the North East,

:58:46.:58:47.

we should get behind it, including you, Richard!

:58:48.:58:49.

Now, Guy Opperman, you spent a lot of time in Copeland...

:58:50.:58:53.

I have, I have been a times to Copeland.

:58:54.:58:55.

All the bookies are making you favourites.

:58:56.:59:03.

Obviously, I never bet on these things, but should

:59:04.:59:05.

I think people should meet Trudy Harrison,

:59:06.:59:08.

our wonderful candidate, born in Seascale, lives in Bootle...

:59:09.:59:10.

We will not will get a chance to do that, so...

:59:11.:59:13.

Are you going to win? I think we have was a great chance.

:59:14.:59:18.

We have got a great candidate in Trudy and secondly,

:59:19.:59:21.

Jeremy Corbyn and his north London antinuclear

:59:22.:59:23.

I have to say that he has he has said this week that he does support

:59:24.:59:27.

Suddenly he has had a volte-face and changed his mind.

:59:28.:59:31.

You and I know he has repeatedly said he wants to decommission

:59:32.:59:39.

all nuclear power stations including Sellafield.

:59:40.:59:40.

I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn would not say he is anti-jobs!

:59:41.:59:47.

Well, he's certainly anti-jobs at Sellafield,

:59:48.:59:49.

Bridget Phillipson, win or lose, it's not great

:59:50.:59:54.

when you are opposition and you are having to fight tooth

:59:55.:59:56.

and nail to hold on to a seat that could be won by the government?

:59:57.:00:00.

And we all know what happened after that.

:00:01.:00:03.

By-elections are always tough and we are campaigning really hard.

:00:04.:00:06.

Whatever Guy says, the Labour Party's position is really clear.

:00:07.:00:10.

la candidate has made her views clear, we are behind the nuclear

:00:11.:00:18.

position. -- our candidate. I look forward to joining her. It's not

:00:19.:00:22.

good about being in a position to lose. By-elections are not always a

:00:23.:00:30.

good indicator. In 1995, will stay by-election and then in 19 seven, or

:00:31.:00:35.

we had a Labour government. You are accepting you are going to lose! I'm

:00:36.:00:41.

making the point that... If Labour loses Copeland and Stowe, were very

:00:42.:00:47.

questions for Jeremy Corbyn? The important thing in Copeland and

:00:48.:00:52.

instead give that we are making the case about jobs... If you lose, is

:00:53.:00:57.

Jeremy Corbyn safe? I will not get into a discussion about what might

:00:58.:01:01.

or might not happen? This is a referendum about Jeremy Corbyn. I'm

:01:02.:01:07.

joining this campaign and any speculation about what Orwell will

:01:08.:01:12.

not happen is pie in the sky. Thank you very much.

:01:13.:01:14.

Well, seven candidates are standing in the Copeland by-election

:01:15.:01:16.

There's a full list of them all on the BBC website.

:01:17.:01:20.

And next Sunday, we've a special programme focusing

:01:21.:01:22.

For now it's back to Andrew for the rest of the show.

:01:23.:01:27.

programme at another time an airport expansion, but thank you to both of

:01:28.:01:31.

you for being here. Back to you, Andrew.

:01:32.:01:37.

Will the Government's plan to boost house-building

:01:38.:01:40.

Could a handful of Conservative MPs cause problems for

:01:41.:01:43.

And what is President Trump going to do next?

:01:44.:01:48.

You have been following the genesis of this housing white paper. What do

:01:49.:02:06.

you make of it? I think it will be quite spectacular, pretty radical

:02:07.:02:11.

stuff. We heard bits about beating up on developers. I understand it

:02:12.:02:15.

will be a whack, walk, covering every single problem with housing

:02:16.:02:20.

supply and trying to solve it. Which means bad news if you are a huge fan

:02:21.:02:24.

of the green belt, because they will go round that the other way by

:02:25.:02:27.

forcing large quotas on councils are making it down to councils where

:02:28.:02:32.

they build. If you fill up your brown space in towns they will have

:02:33.:02:35.

to trigger the exceptional circumstances bit of the bill to

:02:36.:02:39.

beat on green belts. Beating up developers, opening up the market

:02:40.:02:43.

for renters across the board. And Theresa May, one of the most

:02:44.:02:49.

defining thing she could do on the domestic agenda. I am not as excited

:02:50.:02:54.

as Tom about this. I look back to 2004, do you remember the Kate

:02:55.:03:01.

Barker report? Successive governments, successive prime

:03:02.:03:05.

ministers have been promising to address the housing shortage. In

:03:06.:03:10.

2004 Kate Barker recommended hundreds of thousands new homes.

:03:11.:03:14.

Gordon Brown talked about 3 million new homes by 2020 in 2007. It never

:03:15.:03:19.

happens. The reason is at the end of the day this is local politics,

:03:20.:03:23.

local councillors need to keep their seats and they won't keep their

:03:24.:03:26.

seats if there are hugely controversial developments locally

:03:27.:03:30.

that they support. Yes, the government can and are proposing to

:03:31.:03:34.

overrule councils that don't back local developments, but they may

:03:35.:03:38.

find themselves completely inundated with those cases. I think that is

:03:39.:03:43.

the whole point of it, to take on those NIMBY often Tory councils and

:03:44.:03:47.

force them to build. I can't think of a better defining issue for

:03:48.:03:55.

Theresa May than sticking one in the eye of some quite well off half Tory

:03:56.:04:02.

countryside councils. The government gives councils a quota of homes they

:04:03.:04:06.

have to fill, if they don't have to fill that all run out overland to

:04:07.:04:09.

fill the quota, the government then comes in and tells them they have to

:04:10.:04:13.

built on the green belt? How is that going to work? At the moment the

:04:14.:04:18.

green belt is absolutely sacrosanct in British politics. They'll have to

:04:19.:04:21.

do some work on educating people on what green belts means. Potato

:04:22.:04:27.

farms, golf courses... At the moment the idea people have of the green

:04:28.:04:33.

belt being verdant fields needs to be dismantled. You are right. I

:04:34.:04:38.

agree with Tom, 11 million people in the private rental sector in the UK.

:04:39.:04:42.

In the last election more voted Labour than conservative. This is an

:04:43.:04:45.

area where Theresa May would look to expand her vote. The problem has

:04:46.:04:50.

always been, the same problem we have with pension policy and why

:04:51.:04:54.

pensioners have done better than working families in recent years.

:04:55.:04:57.

They are older and they vote more and anything to the detriment of

:04:58.:05:05.

older people. I wonder how they will get private money to come in on

:05:06.:05:10.

anything like this go they would need to have a huge expansion? There

:05:11.:05:15.

is a huge amount of speculation and one of the thing that locks up the

:05:16.:05:19.

system as you have people buying land, taking out a stake of land in

:05:20.:05:23.

the hope that one point it may at some point free up. At the end of

:05:24.:05:27.

the day, unless you have councils far more willing to quickly fast

:05:28.:05:31.

track these applications, which they won't for the reason I said before,

:05:32.:05:34.

it's a very long-term investment. Ed Miliband proposed three-year leases

:05:35.:05:42.

in which the rent could only go up by an agreed formula, probably the

:05:43.:05:47.

three years to give the young families a certain stability over

:05:48.:05:51.

that period. He had a use it or lose it rules for planning development,

:05:52.:05:55.

if you don't use it you lose the planning rights. Somebody else gets

:05:56.:06:00.

it. The Tories disparaged that at the time. This is at the centre of

:06:01.:06:04.

their policy now. This is probably item number four of

:06:05.:06:09.

Ed Miliband's policy book Theresa May has wholesale pinched in the

:06:10.:06:12.

last six months or so. Why not? I think if you look at the change in

:06:13.:06:17.

mood across housing and planning over the last 5-6 years, it used to

:06:18.:06:23.

be an issue very much of green belt versus London planners. Now you have

:06:24.:06:26.

grandparents living in houses in the countryside, knowing their

:06:27.:06:28.

grandchildren can't get on the housing ladder any longer. Maybe a

:06:29.:06:35.

bit more intervention in the market, tougher on renting conditions, maybe

:06:36.:06:38.

that is exactly what the country needs. Will they meet the 1 million

:06:39.:06:44.

target? It would be a defiance of every political thing that has

:06:45.:06:46.

happened in the last ten years. I think Tom is right, if there is only

:06:47.:06:52.

one difference between Theresa May and David Cameron it's the

:06:53.:06:54.

willingness of the state to intervene. When Ed Miliband said

:06:55.:07:01.

that he was seen as communism, but Theresa May can get away with it.

:07:02.:07:05.

How serious is this talk of a couple of dozen Tories who were very loyal

:07:06.:07:12.

over voting for the principle of Article 50 but may now be tempted to

:07:13.:07:18.

vote for some amendments to Article 50 legislation that they would find

:07:19.:07:23.

quite attractive? I think that threat has certainly been taken

:07:24.:07:27.

seriously by levers. I spoke to the campaign group Leaves Means Leave

:07:28.:07:32.

last night. The figure they mentioned was up to 20 remaining

:07:33.:07:36.

Tories. That sounds a lot to me but that is what they are concerned

:07:37.:07:38.

about and those Tories would come together with Labour and the SNP to

:07:39.:07:44.

vote for that amendment. Although that amendment sounds rather nice

:07:45.:07:48.

and democratic, actually in the eyes of many levers that is a wrecking

:07:49.:07:52.

amendment. Because what you are doing is giving Parliament a sort of

:07:53.:07:57.

veto over whatever deal Theresa May brings back. What they want is the

:07:58.:08:01.

vote to be before that deal is finalised. It isn't necessarily the

:08:02.:08:05.

case that if Parliament decided they didn't like that deal we would just

:08:06.:08:11.

go to WTO, we would fall out of the European Union. There are mixed

:08:12.:08:14.

views as to whether we might remain in and things could be extended. My

:08:15.:08:19.

understanding is the people making the amendments, they won any deal

:08:20.:08:25.

that is done to be brought to Parliament in time, so that if

:08:26.:08:30.

Parliament fancies it it's done, but if it does and it doesn't just mean

:08:31.:08:35.

go to WTO rules. There will be time to go back, renegotiate or think

:08:36.:08:40.

again? The question is where it puts Britain's negotiating hand. Nine of

:08:41.:08:45.

the options... Once we trigger Article 50 the two negotiation

:08:46.:08:50.

begins on the power switches to Europe. They can run out the clock

:08:51.:08:54.

and it will be worse for us than them. I don't think either option is

:08:55.:08:57.

particularly appealing. I think what seems like a rather Serena week for

:08:58.:09:02.

Article 50 this week isn't going to be reflective of what will happen

:09:03.:09:06.

next. The way the government's position is at the moment, if at the

:09:07.:09:09.

end the only choice Parliament has is to vote for the deal or crash out

:09:10.:09:14.

on WTO rules, then even the remainder is going to vote for the

:09:15.:09:17.

deal even if they don't like it, because they would regard crashing

:09:18.:09:21.

out as the worst of all possible results. Possibly. It will be a

:09:22.:09:28.

great game of bluff if Theresa May fights off any of these amendments

:09:29.:09:32.

on Wednesday and gets a straightforward deal or no Deal

:09:33.:09:35.

vote. I have a funny feeling this amendment, if it's chosen, we must

:09:36.:09:39.

remember because we don't know if they will choose this amendment, if

:09:40.:09:44.

it does go to a vote on Wednesday it will be very tight indeed. Remember,

:09:45.:09:48.

one final thing Theresa May can do if she gets Parliament voting

:09:49.:09:53.

against, as Isabel would have it, she could try to get a new

:09:54.:09:57.

parliament and go for a general election. And probably get a huge

:09:58.:10:03.

majority to do so. The Lords, it goes there after the February

:10:04.:10:10.

recess. They are very pro-Europe, but does their instinct for

:10:11.:10:18.

self-preservation override that? I think that is it. A Tory Lord said

:10:19.:10:23.

this morning I will vote to block it on a conscience measure, but you

:10:24.:10:27.

have the likes of Bill Cash, veteran Eurosceptics, suddenly converted to

:10:28.:10:32.

the Lords reform saying is an outrage. I doubt they will vote for

:10:33.:10:36.

their own demise, to hasten their own demise by blocking it. What did

:10:37.:10:44.

you make of Doctor Gorka smart fascinating. Cut from the same cloth

:10:45.:10:47.

as his boss. I thought it was extraordinary listening to him,

:10:48.:10:50.

saying everything is going dutifully to plan. But at the end of the day,

:10:51.:10:54.

what they are doing is what people in America voted for Trump to do. If

:10:55.:10:58.

you look at Lord Ashcroft's polling on why America voted for Trump, they

:10:59.:11:03.

went into this with their eyes wide open. One of the top fears among

:11:04.:11:09.

American voters, particularly Republican leading ones was

:11:10.:11:12.

America's immigration policy is or could be letting in terror arrests.

:11:13.:11:15.

As far as he is concerned, he is doing what he was elected to do.

:11:16.:11:20.

This whole year is turning into a wonderful year long lecture series

:11:21.:11:23.

on how democracy works at a fundamental level. I'm not sure

:11:24.:11:26.

anyone wanted it but it's what we've got. This same in the way we've been

:11:27.:11:32.

talking about direct democracy and Parliamentary democracy. The same is

:11:33.:11:37.

happening in America between executive and judicial branches. We

:11:38.:11:40.

are seeing the limits of presidential power. Regardless of

:11:41.:11:44.

the fact that people voted for Trump they voted for senators. The judge

:11:45.:11:47.

who blocks this was appointed by George W Bush. So-called Judge

:11:48.:11:55.

Eckert Mac so-called George W Bush! It's fascinating we're having all

:11:56.:11:57.

these conversations now that I never bought five years ago we would be

:11:58.:12:02.

having at such a fundamental level. Has the media yet worked out how to

:12:03.:12:07.

cover the Trump administration or has he got us behaving like headless

:12:08.:12:11.

chickens? He says something incendiary and we all run over to do

:12:12.:12:16.

that and when you pick it off it turns out not to be as incendiary as

:12:17.:12:20.

we thought? And then back doing something and we all rush over

:12:21.:12:24.

there. Is he making fools of us? Is exactly what he did in the election

:12:25.:12:31.

campaign. So many quick and fast outrageous comments frontrunner on a

:12:32.:12:35.

daily basis, no one single one of them had full news cycle time to be

:12:36.:12:38.

pored over and examined. I think there is a problem with this.

:12:39.:12:41.

Although he keeps the upper hand, keeps the agenda and keeps on the

:12:42.:12:46.

populist ground, the problem is it easy to campaign like that. If you

:12:47.:12:51.

are governing in a state of semi-hysteria, I wonder how long the

:12:52.:12:54.

American public will be comfortable with that. They don't really want

:12:55.:12:56.

their government to be swirling chaos all the time, as fascinating

:12:57.:13:02.

as it might be on TV. They will be exhausted by it, I already am. I

:13:03.:13:08.

have been interviewing White House administration official since 1976

:13:09.:13:10.

and that is the first time someone hasn't given me a straight answer on

:13:11.:13:14.

America supporting the EU. That is a different world.

:13:15.:13:16.

Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two tomorrow at midday with

:13:17.:13:20.

the Daily Politics - and I'll be back here

:13:21.:13:22.

Remember, if it's Sunday - it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:23.:14:01.

TV: He's not your father. WOMAN GASPS

:14:02.:14:14.

so why not pay your TV licence in weekly instalments, too?

:14:15.:14:28.

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