28/05/2017 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


28/05/2017

Jo Coburn and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate. John Curtice, Ben Wallace, Richard Burgon, Douglas Murray and Sara Khan are among the guests.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,

:00:41.:00:43.

on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.

:00:44.:00:47.

Are the politicians and the security services doing

:00:48.:00:49.

Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"

:00:50.:00:55.

in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans

:00:56.:00:58.

for a new Commission to counter extremism.

:00:59.:01:02.

We'll be talking to the Security Minister.

:01:03.:01:06.

Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000

:01:07.:01:08.

Here: and intelligence agencies.

:01:09.:01:16.

Seven people from the North East died

:01:17.:01:18.

in the Manchester bombing - how do we prevent more loss of life?

:01:19.:01:21.

Which party has the best plan for our roads and railways?

:01:22.:01:22.

supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering

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the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this

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morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia

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Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts

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on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,

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the election campaign And some recent polls

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suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look

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at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over

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the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third

:01:59.:02:02.

of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's

:02:03.:02:07.

Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be

:02:08.:02:09.

enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break

:02:10.:02:15.

in campaigning for And in the evening it will be

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the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP

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publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do

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so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's

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Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main

:02:31.:02:33.

parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim

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Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time

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special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,

:02:47.:02:48.

but will take questions consecutively from members

:02:49.:02:51.

of the audience. The final week of campaigning

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is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days

:02:54.:02:56.

of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once

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voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early

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in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always

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means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,

:03:14.:03:16.

if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion

:03:17.:03:19.

polls today, which have the Conservative lead

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over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.

:03:22.:03:23.

So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice

:03:24.:03:26.

is the expert we always turn to at times like this,

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and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They

:03:30.:03:42.

seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very

:03:43.:03:47.

consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare

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them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto

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launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two

:03:58.:04:02.

points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear

:04:03.:04:08.

consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this

:04:09.:04:13.

matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads

:04:14.:04:16.

are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the

:04:17.:04:22.

landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in

:04:23.:04:25.

trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is

:04:26.:04:36.

further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that

:04:37.:04:40.

young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote

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for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out

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to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls

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that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the

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Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the

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Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,

:05:03.:05:05.

they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The

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Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you

:05:13.:05:17.

look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has

:05:18.:05:23.

been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now

:05:24.:05:29.

average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of

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the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is

:05:33.:05:36.

I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour

:05:37.:05:40.

manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,

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we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the

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fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,

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together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never

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voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.

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What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather

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has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?

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This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces

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the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at

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which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to

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correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support

:06:28.:06:31.

a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't

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assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were

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wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls

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have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they

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are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so

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far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And

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subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low

:07:03.:07:05.

initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of

:07:06.:07:09.

movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more

:07:10.:07:13.

in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to

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the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be

:07:24.:07:28.

at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by

:07:29.:07:32.

Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might

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not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a

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good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was

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a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the

:07:47.:07:53.

Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby

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was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the

:07:58.:08:02.

candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the

:08:03.:08:06.

moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been

:08:07.:08:11.

a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,

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she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone

:08:17.:08:20.

up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do

:08:21.:08:24.

something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy

:08:25.:08:28.

like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the

:08:29.:08:32.

reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some

:08:33.:08:36.

momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the

:08:37.:08:39.

focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were

:08:40.:08:43.

stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically

:08:44.:08:47.

cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All

:08:48.:08:53.

of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is

:08:54.:08:58.

a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.

:08:59.:09:02.

That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour

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Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the

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other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the

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trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this

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narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning

:09:21.:09:24.

resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,

:09:25.:09:28.

Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in

:09:29.:09:31.

Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them

:09:32.:09:36.

safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon

:09:37.:09:40.

for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the

:09:41.:09:47.

very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of

:09:48.:09:52.

Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.

:09:53.:09:59.

You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid

:10:00.:10:05.

for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It

:10:06.:10:09.

is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in

:10:10.:10:14.

them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.

:10:15.:10:18.

The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about

:10:19.:10:22.

like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite

:10:23.:10:28.

while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about

:10:29.:10:32.

public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I

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don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We

:10:36.:10:40.

had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was

:10:41.:10:44.

already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.

:10:45.:10:48.

The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually

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care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank

:10:54.:10:55.

you very much. The election campaign was,

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of course, put on hold following the terrorist

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attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has

:11:00.:11:01.

resumed, it's hardly surprising that security

:11:02.:11:04.

is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it

:11:05.:11:06.

would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at

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short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.

:11:21.:11:25.

It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very

:11:26.:11:29.

dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community

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response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police

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he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I

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would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources

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to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds

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is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a

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thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is

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in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow

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Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any

:12:04.:12:06.

more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of

:12:07.:12:11.

the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also

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10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by

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20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police

:12:23.:12:26.

officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison

:12:27.:12:32.

officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not

:12:33.:12:39.

helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra

:12:40.:12:44.

firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border

:12:45.:12:53.

guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not

:12:54.:12:57.

as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.

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If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy

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Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.

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If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why

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aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more

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police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing

:13:21.:13:27.

anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We

:13:28.:13:31.

will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very

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clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop

:13:36.:13:40.

at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be

:13:41.:13:46.

giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you

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will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need

:13:50.:13:56.

to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are

:13:57.:13:59.

saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger

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caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,

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not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from

:14:13.:14:16.

anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of

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powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to

:14:23.:14:27.

listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the

:14:28.:14:29.

intelligence community and the security service, to the army and

:14:30.:14:36.

the police, about what they think and how they think our communities

:14:37.:14:39.

could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police

:14:40.:14:44.

by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said

:14:45.:14:50.

you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured

:14:51.:14:54.

and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services

:14:55.:14:59.

and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?

:15:00.:15:04.

Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against

:15:05.:15:08.

measures designed to tackle home-grown and international

:15:09.:15:13.

terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week

:15:14.:15:17.

made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant

:15:18.:15:22.

those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into

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thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and

:15:31.:15:34.

investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?

:15:35.:15:39.

Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

:15:40.:15:44.

many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it

:15:45.:15:48.

would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a

:15:49.:15:51.

very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce

:15:52.:15:58.

hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which

:15:59.:16:01.

can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said

:16:02.:16:05.

earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that

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he has been listening to the security services, what he said

:16:09.:16:12.

about the international situation has also been said by the former

:16:13.:16:17.

head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as

:16:18.:16:20.

president of back -- President Barack Obama.

:16:21.:16:26.

You say he will give the police and security services the resources and

:16:27.:16:32.

powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy

:16:33.:16:36.

Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State

:16:37.:16:46.

the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad

:16:47.:16:52.

idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

:16:53.:16:57.

others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm

:16:58.:17:00.

interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to

:17:01.:17:04.

be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in

:17:05.:17:08.

favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on

:17:09.:17:13.

suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex

:17:14.:17:20.

situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it

:17:21.:17:24.

was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation

:17:25.:17:27.

through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly

:17:28.:17:35.

there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,

:17:36.:17:38.

Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other

:17:39.:17:43.

Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this

:17:44.:17:47.

week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We

:17:48.:17:52.

have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,

:17:53.:17:56.

but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is

:17:57.:18:02.

there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been

:18:03.:18:14.

solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but

:18:15.:18:16.

your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they

:18:17.:18:19.

need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will

:18:20.:18:22.

want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in

:18:23.:18:30.

2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At

:18:31.:18:40.

the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the

:18:41.:18:45.

one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What

:18:46.:18:49.

he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism

:18:50.:18:53.

and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed

:18:54.:19:01.

me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy

:19:02.:19:05.

Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with

:19:06.:19:19.

him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but

:19:20.:19:23.

what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat

:19:24.:19:26.

down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he

:19:27.:19:30.

didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think

:19:31.:19:34.

that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These

:19:35.:19:38.

issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together

:19:39.:19:40.

on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have

:19:41.:19:44.

promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify

:19:45.:19:47.

extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,

:19:48.:19:49.

and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,

:19:50.:19:52.

the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants

:19:53.:19:54.

for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them

:19:55.:19:56.

of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:19:57.:20:09.

Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in

:20:10.:20:13.

their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do

:20:14.:20:18.

to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans

:20:19.:20:22.

have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but

:20:23.:20:27.

there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.

:20:28.:20:33.

Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did

:20:34.:20:37.

say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do

:20:38.:20:42.

internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and

:20:43.:20:45.

international response. I think there are a range of issues. We

:20:46.:20:52.

could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words

:20:53.:20:56.

are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made

:20:57.:21:00.

these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do

:21:01.:21:07.

the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to

:21:08.:21:10.

social media companies take down this material? We have an act that

:21:11.:21:15.

was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one

:21:16.:21:21.

of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We

:21:22.:21:27.

have right now officials from my department over in the United States

:21:28.:21:30.

with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that

:21:31.:21:35.

they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have

:21:36.:21:42.

the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that

:21:43.:21:48.

maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies

:21:49.:21:52.

devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see

:21:53.:21:55.

them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a

:21:56.:22:01.

few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted

:22:02.:22:05.

a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve

:22:06.:22:11.

it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime

:22:12.:22:15.

Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but

:22:16.:22:18.

to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People

:22:19.:22:23.

will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is

:22:24.:22:25.

unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,

:22:26.:22:32.

which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote

:22:33.:22:37.

you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the

:22:38.:22:41.

picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was

:22:42.:22:46.

killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be

:22:47.:22:51.

demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the

:22:52.:22:56.

context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces

:22:57.:23:02.

we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been

:23:03.:23:06.

extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way

:23:07.:23:10.

these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were

:23:11.:23:16.

watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to

:23:17.:23:20.

look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto

:23:21.:23:27.

YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I

:23:28.:23:36.

understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting

:23:37.:23:39.

media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...

:23:40.:23:47.

You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young

:23:48.:23:51.

people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I

:23:52.:23:57.

invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on

:23:58.:24:01.

Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos

:24:02.:24:07.

or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as

:24:08.:24:11.

long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to

:24:12.:24:15.

be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying

:24:16.:24:19.

for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance

:24:20.:24:25.

that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people

:24:26.:24:30.

don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians

:24:31.:24:34.

and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be

:24:35.:24:39.

done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It

:24:40.:24:43.

is more about examining how much progress you can make. The

:24:44.:24:48.

Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers

:24:49.:24:53.

in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being

:24:54.:25:04.

monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.

:25:05.:25:09.

Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it

:25:10.:25:12.

is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is

:25:13.:25:16.

important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size

:25:17.:25:24.

of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms

:25:25.:25:27.

not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we

:25:28.:25:33.

have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our

:25:34.:25:39.

manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government

:25:40.:25:42.

spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7

:25:43.:25:52.

billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them

:25:53.:26:00.

on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,

:26:01.:26:05.

and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have

:26:06.:26:09.

quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are

:26:10.:26:15.

using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,

:26:16.:26:22.

but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.

:26:23.:26:30.

Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.

:26:31.:26:35.

Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they

:26:36.:26:43.

are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive

:26:44.:26:47.

issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and

:26:48.:26:51.

at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't

:26:52.:26:57.

come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5

:26:58.:27:02.

and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor

:27:03.:27:08.

them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.

:27:09.:27:16.

You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if

:27:17.:27:19.

they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with

:27:20.:27:26.

the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance

:27:27.:27:31.

between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there

:27:32.:27:34.

is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all

:27:35.:27:42.

sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from

:27:43.:27:48.

where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The

:27:49.:27:53.

control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because

:27:54.:27:57.

one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to

:27:58.:28:02.

satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is

:28:03.:28:06.

right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we

:28:07.:28:10.

won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no

:28:11.:28:15.

point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't

:28:16.:28:21.

give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James

:28:22.:28:33.

Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.

:28:34.:28:35.

The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old

:28:36.:28:43.

Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns

:28:44.:28:46.

about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.

:28:47.:28:48.

In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers

:28:49.:28:51.

investigating radicalisation in the UK.

:28:52.:28:52.

Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,

:28:53.:28:54.

and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO

:28:55.:28:56.

of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.

:28:57.:28:58.

We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem

:28:59.:29:01.

of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.

:29:02.:29:04.

Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,

:29:05.:29:09.

We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -

:29:10.:29:27.

Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify

:29:28.:29:31.

the sources of the problem, and polite society

:29:32.:29:32.

This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.

:29:33.:29:39.

Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,

:29:40.:29:43.

one for each year of life this country had given him.

:29:44.:29:50.

We need to think far more deeply about all this.

:29:51.:29:54.

Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem

:29:55.:29:57.

France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.

:29:58.:30:05.

Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?

:30:06.:30:09.

For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.

:30:10.:30:17.

The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.

:30:18.:30:20.

Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,

:30:21.:30:24.

and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,

:30:25.:30:28.

even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.

:30:29.:30:34.

It is high time we became serious too.

:30:35.:30:44.

Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.

:30:45.:30:52.

We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?

:30:53.:30:59.

Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations

:31:00.:31:02.

who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even

:31:03.:31:07.

violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out

:31:08.:31:11.

of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself

:31:12.:31:14.

experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.

:31:15.:31:17.

These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,

:31:18.:31:26.

hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers

:31:27.:31:29.

Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic

:31:30.:31:33.

anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition

:31:34.:31:39.

I've seen politicians and charities partner

:31:40.:31:44.

with and support some of these voices and groups.

:31:45.:31:49.

Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far

:31:50.:31:55.

right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do

:31:56.:31:58.

But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies

:31:59.:32:05.

Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.

:32:06.:32:15.

We must counter those who seek to divide us.

:32:16.:32:24.

Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,

:32:25.:32:31.

strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,

:32:32.:32:36.

let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The

:32:37.:32:40.

young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at

:32:41.:32:45.

Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its

:32:46.:32:50.

leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of

:32:51.:32:53.

the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they

:32:54.:32:59.

are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was

:33:00.:33:04.

against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just

:33:05.:33:10.

one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?

:33:11.:33:16.

Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in

:33:17.:33:25.

the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting

:33:26.:33:33.

Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide

:33:34.:33:37.

bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to

:33:38.:33:41.

that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been

:33:42.:33:47.

politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,

:33:48.:33:50.

Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and

:33:51.:33:55.

countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist

:33:56.:34:02.

-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If

:34:03.:34:06.

Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look

:34:07.:34:11.

forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join

:34:12.:34:14.

Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist

:34:15.:34:17.

offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got

:34:18.:34:22.

worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your

:34:23.:34:25.

argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of

:34:26.:34:27.

Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?

:34:28.:34:33.

The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to

:34:34.:34:37.

absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me

:34:38.:34:43.

finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It

:34:44.:34:46.

has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth

:34:47.:34:51.

continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically

:34:52.:34:56.

correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to

:34:57.:35:00.

deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in

:35:01.:35:03.

Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a

:35:04.:35:08.

crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are

:35:09.:35:13.

competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are

:35:14.:35:15.

seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians

:35:16.:35:21.

are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims

:35:22.:35:26.

should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.

:35:27.:35:32.

There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to

:35:33.:35:37.

take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many

:35:38.:35:41.

reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on

:35:42.:35:45.

the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in

:35:46.:35:50.

this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A

:35:51.:35:56.

poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would

:35:57.:35:58.

not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to

:35:59.:36:06.

the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they

:36:07.:36:13.

could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.

:36:14.:36:17.

What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current

:36:18.:36:23.

understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university

:36:24.:36:27.

campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material

:36:28.:36:33.

that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of

:36:34.:36:36.

thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is

:36:37.:36:43.

freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is

:36:44.:36:48.

through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights

:36:49.:36:54.

to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a

:36:55.:37:00.

gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many

:37:01.:37:05.

people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That

:37:06.:37:10.

is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights

:37:11.:37:17.

point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not

:37:18.:37:20.

suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people

:37:21.:37:26.

don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be

:37:27.:37:32.

opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human

:37:33.:37:39.

rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution

:37:40.:37:42.

like Salford University you should be held responsible for not

:37:43.:37:45.

cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge

:37:46.:37:50.

extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually

:37:51.:37:56.

counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not

:37:57.:38:01.

about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most

:38:02.:38:05.

effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it

:38:06.:38:13.

doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking

:38:14.:38:17.

place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims

:38:18.:38:22.

in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are

:38:23.:38:27.

homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend

:38:28.:38:30.

among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea

:38:31.:38:34.

that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is

:38:35.:38:40.

also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are

:38:41.:38:43.

defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a

:38:44.:38:47.

better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to

:38:48.:38:50.

get real about that. Thank you very much.

:38:51.:38:52.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:53.:38:54.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:55.:38:56.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:57.:39:06.

Hello and welcome to your local part of the show in a week in which seven

:39:07.:39:10.

North East people lost their lives in the Manchester bombing.

:39:11.:39:12.

We'll be discussing that and Labour's pledge to reverse cuts

:39:13.:39:15.

to the police and emergency services, which Jeremy Corbyn

:39:16.:39:17.

says is making the fight against terrorism even harder.

:39:18.:39:21.

My guests are James Wharton, who is hoping to retain

:39:22.:39:23.

his Stockton South seat for the Conservatives.

:39:24.:39:25.

Laura Pidcock, who is standing for Labour in the North West

:39:26.:39:28.

Anne Marie Curry is the Liberal Democrat contender in Darlington.

:39:29.:39:32.

Andy Redfearn is the Green Party's candidate in Gateshead.

:39:33.:39:36.

We'll also be taking a look at another of the big issues

:39:37.:39:39.

in the North in this election - transport.

:39:40.:39:41.

Which party, if any, will deliver much-needed

:39:42.:39:42.

investment in our roads, railways and the Tyne

:39:43.:39:44.

Let's start with the response in our region to the attack

:39:45.:39:50.

Hundreds of people turned out at a vigil in Newcastle

:39:51.:39:53.

to show their support and solidarity with those affected.

:39:54.:39:55.

While flags were flown at half-mast and flowers laid

:39:56.:39:57.

at the Town Hall in South Shields, as well as at many other public

:39:58.:40:01.

buildings across the region, a minute's silence was observed

:40:02.:40:03.

A lot of emotion this week, some defiance, determination not to be

:40:04.:40:18.

beaten by the terrorists. It is enough being done to protect the

:40:19.:40:22.

public? I think it is very difficult to counter these sort of threats,

:40:23.:40:27.

individuals motivated by things they see or read online or things that

:40:28.:40:33.

they see in their own lives. The security services do an incredibly

:40:34.:40:37.

good job. A number of attacks have been stopped. We always need to be

:40:38.:40:43.

vigilant and careful. We rely on communities to work with our

:40:44.:40:47.

security services to prevent this sort of thing, but we need to

:40:48.:40:52.

recognise the emergency services, security services doing a good job

:40:53.:40:56.

and often difficult circumstances. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn head to

:40:57.:41:00.

the right tone with his response? I want to starts by saying that I

:41:01.:41:05.

couldn't stop thinking about my three nieces on that day because

:41:06.:41:10.

they really wanted to go to that concept. I asked them after the

:41:11.:41:14.

event that they would still want to go to construct and they all said

:41:15.:41:18.

yes. That is the kind of defiance that we need. The emergency services

:41:19.:41:23.

did an incredible job. It brings out the best in people. They saved

:41:24.:41:29.

whoever they save. Once people are less raw, once the nation has the

:41:30.:41:36.

chance to grieve, I think there are questions to be answered about

:41:37.:41:39.

whether cutting 20,000 police from our streets had an impact on the

:41:40.:41:43.

kind of intelligence we are able to gather. Jeremy Corbyn raised on

:41:44.:41:51.

Friday, was that too soon? They are conversations happening on the

:41:52.:41:54.

doorstep so he is raising the voice of the people. What does follow

:41:55.:42:02.

these numbers do to their ability to gather information? There is no

:42:03.:42:07.

evidence that the attack on Manchester could have been prevented

:42:08.:42:12.

by more police on the street. I work with young people over the last

:42:13.:42:15.

eight years, and I have worked with extreme young people, with young

:42:16.:42:21.

people radicalise towards the far right. When we look at interventions

:42:22.:42:26.

for those jumpy but we see the impact of cuts. We say, can we

:42:27.:42:30.

repair them there, can we have a youth worker... You can say that the

:42:31.:42:39.

cuts had anything to do with that motivation for the person who

:42:40.:42:43.

planted the bombs in Manchester? That person is responsible for what

:42:44.:42:47.

they did. When we have all had time to grieve, there are questions to be

:42:48.:42:52.

answered about the police cuts. High up these officers are saying that

:42:53.:42:57.

the piece are under pressure. It is valid for boaters to look at this

:42:58.:43:01.

and say I would be safer if these cuts to boost officers hadn't

:43:02.:43:05.

happened? It is perfectly valid reporters to make judgments. The

:43:06.:43:11.

truth is that this sort of activity is not straightforward old-fashioned

:43:12.:43:13.

policing. It is very complex and requires a complex response which

:43:14.:43:20.

includes the security services. Nonetheless, people will have a

:43:21.:43:24.

choice in this election to feel safe with Jeremy Corbyn Ord Theresa May.

:43:25.:43:29.

Labour promising more police officers, you're not. Labour seems

:43:30.:43:34.

to have rediscovered the magic money tree and the selection. In Jeremy

:43:35.:43:38.

Corbyn you have a leader that this week on Terror and the causes of it,

:43:39.:43:43.

and Theresa May as an experienced Home Secretary. Tim Farron criticise

:43:44.:43:52.

Jeremy Corbyn scented with politics before people on Thursday. There is

:43:53.:43:59.

a time and a place to do it. A couple of days after the event is

:44:00.:44:03.

not the right time to do it. Maybe in a week's time would been a better

:44:04.:44:09.

time because people then have got over the horrific shock. A lot of

:44:10.:44:13.

people are in shock about the situation. Do you disagree with the

:44:14.:44:18.

general thrust of what he said? I have concerns because the reporter,

:44:19.:44:24.

that the imam and Muslim community were telling the police did this guy

:44:25.:44:27.

had gone rogue yet nothing was done. Was that due to lack of policing or

:44:28.:44:31.

was it due to people not believing the imam? That needs to be

:44:32.:44:38.

investigated. The response has been firm on this post the attack. The

:44:39.:44:42.

terror alert level has been lowered. Could more have been done? It is

:44:43.:44:46.

hard to say looking back in hindsight that nothing more could

:44:47.:44:50.

have been done. Clearly lots more could have been done in this

:44:51.:44:54.

specific case. What people are interested in is what can we do on a

:44:55.:44:58.

more general level to make our country safer, to make people feel

:44:59.:45:02.

more included? For somebody to actually want to blow themselves up

:45:03.:45:07.

and kill other people... What do you think is the solution? We have

:45:08.:45:12.

created a culture in this country or allowed a culture to beat created,

:45:13.:45:17.

particularly in the light of Brexit, for it to be OK for people to say

:45:18.:45:23.

things that are wrong and reassessed and cause people to feel

:45:24.:45:29.

marginalised, disadvantaged. We don't know what the motivation of

:45:30.:45:34.

this man was. He was a young man he has clearly decided his only hope

:45:35.:45:39.

unlike this to blow himself up. Somebody has done the evil thing of

:45:40.:45:42.

persuading him that was the right thing to do. People behind that of

:45:43.:45:46.

the people we should be making sure we find. It is not a great issue for

:45:47.:45:54.

Labour, the polls suggest that people trust Theresa May over Jeremy

:45:55.:46:04.

Corbyn on this issue. Amber Rudd admitted after this that she needed

:46:05.:46:07.

to look again at police cuts. I am not saying anything outrageous or

:46:08.:46:11.

anything the Home Secretary has not said, that there would be a rethink

:46:12.:46:15.

of the police cuts. It makes people feel secure is that they know they

:46:16.:46:22.

have a lease officers who are not stressed than being supported. That

:46:23.:46:27.

bomber was responsible for his actions. Is it so wrong for Labour

:46:28.:46:32.

leader make some connection with saying that foreign wars, the

:46:33.:46:35.

instability of foreign countries, is a problem that feeds this. Jeremy

:46:36.:46:41.

Corbyn is entitled to make the contribution as he sees fit. Most

:46:42.:46:45.

people looking at what he said at his track record in Parliament, over

:46:46.:46:50.

his entire life in politics, see somebody who cannot be trusted on

:46:51.:46:51.

this issue. Well, let's look at an issue

:46:52.:46:55.

now that doesn't always gets much attention at a general

:46:56.:46:58.

election - transport. It is crucial of course,

:46:59.:47:00.

as anybody who has battled through roadworks or stood for hours

:47:01.:47:02.

in an overcrowded But investment is also vital

:47:03.:47:04.

for the region's economic success. The North East and Cumbria has

:47:05.:47:08.

lagged far behind London and the South East in transport

:47:09.:47:10.

spending for years, but now the parties are making

:47:11.:47:13.

promises to change all that. Washington, Tyne and Wear,

:47:14.:47:17.

and a man on the mission trying And this, apparently,

:47:18.:47:19.

is Railway Terrace. But, sadly, it seems I am

:47:20.:47:28.

destined for disappointment. Well, just my luck, I seem to have

:47:29.:47:33.

missed the last train here by 54 years because,

:47:34.:47:36.

actually, there has been no train station here in Washington,

:47:37.:47:38.

not even a link to the Tyne That is despite an 80,000

:47:39.:47:41.

population that, as you can Washington is the largest town

:47:42.:47:48.

in the North with no trains. And that means a lot of this,

:47:49.:47:54.

waiting for buses, especially for Adam Robson during his time

:47:55.:47:57.

at Newcastle College. It took me well over

:47:58.:48:00.

an hour, two buses and then eventually the Metro,

:48:01.:48:03.

to get there and it I was thinking there

:48:04.:48:05.

are probably thousands of people within Washington who would commute

:48:06.:48:11.

to Newcastle and if they don't drive, they will probably have

:48:12.:48:13.

to go through equally But Adam didn't take

:48:14.:48:15.

that lying down. He started a campaign to bring

:48:16.:48:20.

the Metro to Washington, Nowadays, he is at university,

:48:21.:48:22.

but remains convinced I did enjoy growing up

:48:23.:48:26.

in Washington, but if I came back to work in the North East I would

:48:27.:48:32.

probably choose somewhere else. So having the Metro here

:48:33.:48:35.

could make the difference between whether you come back

:48:36.:48:37.

here or not, really? But even the existing

:48:38.:48:39.

Metro has problems. This station needs TLC

:48:40.:48:42.

and the trains are even worse - 40 years old and increasingly

:48:43.:48:44.

unreliable. A ?500 million bid for new

:48:45.:48:48.

investment is with ministers now. Campaigning passengers say the cash

:48:49.:48:51.

should be found and without delay. We need new trains,

:48:52.:48:56.

we need a new power system, we need infrastructure or we close

:48:57.:48:58.

the Metro down and that's And the infrastructure on the roads

:48:59.:49:01.

just couldn't cope with that, so it's not just for people

:49:02.:49:06.

who travel by Metro, it's for the whole of the North East

:49:07.:49:09.

that this is needed. But at least our roads

:49:10.:49:13.

are seeing some investment, including a new ?100 million bridge

:49:14.:49:15.

across the Wear. But, actually, this is more

:49:16.:49:17.

than just about building a spectacular bridge or even cutting

:49:18.:49:20.

journey times because the hope is that when this opens

:49:21.:49:23.

in about a year's time it will help to regenerate Sunderland

:49:24.:49:26.

and bring new jobs to both Further north in Cramlington,

:49:27.:49:28.

an example of investment This ?2 million lorry test centre

:49:29.:49:34.

was built by a local haulier, but the boss here still wants to see

:49:35.:49:39.

the brakes taken off We have talked now for probably 30,

:49:40.:49:41.

40 years about dualling the A1. We are always more comfortable

:49:42.:49:47.

when we see the diggers on the road. Businesses like ours invest

:49:48.:49:50.

when we can see what the future is. This facility we are in today,

:49:51.:49:54.

for example, the vehicle testing centre, is built at the junction

:49:55.:49:58.

of the A19 and A1. It is here because the

:49:59.:50:03.

road network is here. The same would happen

:50:04.:50:05.

if the roads were further north. The same would happen if the roads

:50:06.:50:14.

were built further north. Back in Washington,

:50:15.:50:17.

the weeds continue to grow Of course, this isn't the only place

:50:18.:50:19.

waiting for transport investment. Teesside would love its own Metro,

:50:20.:50:23.

Ashington the return of passenger services,

:50:24.:50:25.

West Cumbrians the So wouldn't it would be nice

:50:26.:50:26.

if we could make decisions about that here rather than waiting

:50:27.:50:30.

for Westminster and Whitehall? Some say that could happen

:50:31.:50:32.

if councils and mayors were given more control over local taxes

:50:33.:50:35.

and allowed to borrow to invest. We really think the North should be

:50:36.:50:38.

leading not pleading Local leaders should have the kind

:50:39.:50:41.

of control necessary to be able to make the investments

:50:42.:50:45.

that they know are going to benefit the local area, and also be able

:50:46.:50:47.

to borrow upfront to fund that economic growth that

:50:48.:50:50.

will come in the future. For now, though, the people

:50:51.:50:53.

of Washington and beyond must wait to see what Westminster politicians

:50:54.:50:56.

promise and, more crucially, John McDonnell came up a few weeks

:50:57.:51:12.

before the election and pledged Metro investment, hundreds of

:51:13.:51:19.

millions of pounds of investment. Labour and the selection is

:51:20.:51:22.

promising to pay for everything for everyone and they don't know whether

:51:23.:51:27.

money is going come from. They are going to borrow that money and put

:51:28.:51:33.

it into an infrastructure fund. They are going to borrow some. There

:51:34.:51:38.

would be huge tax rises needed if they were to deliver on what they

:51:39.:51:42.

are saying. Transport investment is important for growth. We want to see

:51:43.:51:49.

more in the North. All politicians in our region, whoever is elected,

:51:50.:51:53.

we will need to make the case to get that investment into the north-east.

:51:54.:51:57.

The case at the moment is being made by Labour. Metro investment is

:51:58.:52:02.

critical, we have pledged Labour, not from you. The Labour manifesto

:52:03.:52:11.

is a fantasy shopping list. Better than no pledge at all. We have seen

:52:12.:52:15.

transport for London established, significant investment on our roads,

:52:16.:52:21.

but we need to do more. We need to make a case for this region. ?500

:52:22.:52:29.

million for the Metro, that will be considered against other bids around

:52:30.:52:33.

the country. We need to make our case is the strongest and

:52:34.:52:38.

successful. You are proposing too great a mountain of debt to fund

:52:39.:52:42.

them. It is not credible. That is not true. The Tories are on the

:52:43.:52:47.

roads here because we have costed manifesto. They don't. They talk

:52:48.:52:52.

about consultations and Green Paper is, when you are asking the public

:52:53.:52:56.

to place trust in you... You are going to borrow a massive wedge of

:52:57.:53:01.

money. It is cost neutral if you are borrowing to invest. It costs us and

:53:02.:53:05.

massive amount of money to have privatised rail systems at the

:53:06.:53:08.

moment when that money could be coming back into the Treasury. It

:53:09.:53:14.

doesn't make any sense... As the Minister for the Northern powerhouse

:53:15.:53:18.

and shareholders that could be coming into the Treasury, the

:53:19.:53:25.

Conservatives have presided over a massive transport authority. It is

:53:26.:53:33.

over ?1000 per head in the south-east, it is only ?200 per head

:53:34.:53:41.

in the North East. We are seeing nutrients on the lines... Labour's

:53:42.:53:47.

rhetoric doesn't match up to what is happening, does it? We have seen bus

:53:48.:53:51.

deregulation, seeing the people in North West Durham are completely cut

:53:52.:53:57.

off, they can't get buses on Sundays or bank holidays. They have to walk

:53:58.:54:03.

for hours to get to a shopping centre. Who would say local

:54:04.:54:06.

authorities should be able to set timetables and routes. Labour has

:54:07.:54:11.

come up with a plan to spend hundreds of millions of pounds. They

:54:12.:54:16.

are in a better position to deliver the newcomers away but would you? Is

:54:17.:54:22.

what Labour and the Tories are banking on his infinite growth,

:54:23.:54:25.

infinite resources, infinite everything because that high

:54:26.:54:29.

everything will be funded. We think that should be more questions about

:54:30.:54:35.

how we just only build more stuff, but begin to ask questions about why

:54:36.:54:40.

people need to travel? When the A1 was recently upgraded through to

:54:41.:54:47.

Newcastle, the upgrade there, employers knew it was coming, Newton

:54:48.:54:51.

was going to be chaos, they came up a full-time of creative ways to work

:54:52.:54:55.

with their employees, early start, early finishes, traffic fell. If you

:54:56.:55:05.

want your road in your area improved, don't go green? If you

:55:06.:55:11.

want to have cheap foreign travel, dopant green? It is easy to do

:55:12.:55:19.

through that kind of stuff at us. I couldn't get the bus here today

:55:20.:55:24.

because the buses couldn't get me here. Rather than spending billions

:55:25.:55:29.

of pounds investing three miles on the A1 without one single point been

:55:30.:55:35.

spent on bus pass, cycle lanes. We would spend it on making Joe the

:55:36.:55:39.

buses were regulated again so we could ensure people to get public

:55:40.:55:45.

transport again. Looking at your manifesto, take promises and warm

:55:46.:55:46.

words. No even than two dual the A1. words. No even than two dual the A1.

:55:47.:55:54.

Lib Dems locally are campaigning locally to do one all the way up.

:55:55.:56:00.

Why wasn't that in the manifesto? The manifesto is a national policy.

:56:01.:56:05.

believe that is the right thing to believe that is the right thing to

:56:06.:56:08.

are you promising? We are promising are you promising? We are promising

:56:09.:56:15.

to get more sustainable transport, give a reduction in fares for 18-21

:56:16.:56:20.

-year-olds, to get the blood of using the buses. But private

:56:21.:56:25.

companies using the buses, they will only go where they can get a return

:56:26.:56:29.

on the journey. Or we could get more people using the buses...

:56:30.:56:34.

Well, the campaign is entering its last full week.

:56:35.:56:36.

So far, we've seen Theresa May in Northumberland and in North Shields.

:56:37.:56:39.

UKIP leader Paul Nuttall stopped off briefly in Hartlepool.

:56:40.:56:41.

But no sign yet of Jeremy Corbyn, although we do understand

:56:42.:56:44.

he will make an appearance in the North East

:56:45.:56:46.

So let's take stock of what we've seen so far and look ahead

:56:47.:56:50.

The polls have suggested that Labour is picking up support, but goodness

:56:51.:57:02.

knows that they are right, we have been better map -- by that before.

:57:03.:57:08.

There was a real sea change when both manifestos came out. People

:57:09.:57:13.

could see a stark contrast between what the Labour Party was offering

:57:14.:57:17.

knocked on doors when people were knocked on doors when people were

:57:18.:57:20.

really scared that the rooms were going to be taken of them if they

:57:21.:57:23.

had to use to social care system. had to use to social care system.

:57:24.:57:29.

There are some affluent places in North West Durham as well, and older

:57:30.:57:34.

people were scared. People started to see a real offer that we are

:57:35.:57:39.

about a party of investing to grow. We are a party that is interested in

:57:40.:57:44.

making sure that we had signed finances through fiscal credibility

:57:45.:57:51.

rule and we have costed manifesto. The Tories have costed there is.

:57:52.:57:58.

There is already talk of relaunching the Conservative campaign. It has

:57:59.:58:00.

been a bit lacklustre. There were some positive policies in the Labour

:58:01.:58:06.

manifesto that people could get hold of, what was there in the

:58:07.:58:09.

Conservative manifesto apart from doom and gloom over social care? I

:58:10.:58:14.

think the polls have narrowed and this election is in contention. You

:58:15.:58:19.

can't assume that result is going to prevail. At the beginning of it like

:58:20.:58:24.

it was going to be an easy win for the Conservatives and Theresa May.

:58:25.:58:30.

That is not the case any more. Labour have promised everything to

:58:31.:58:39.

everyone. Principal effect a generation of people in this country

:58:40.:58:42.

and people have to vote between Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn. Making

:58:43.:58:47.

the presidential hasn't worked so far. The tarnish has come Theresa

:58:48.:58:53.

May in the last few weeks about what has been happening. I would love to

:58:54.:58:57.

sit here and say we are going to glide to a win, but the polls have

:58:58.:59:02.

narrowed. The big issue that will affect this were a generation is he

:59:03.:59:05.

will undergo sea of exit, and that will either be Theresa May or Jeremy

:59:06.:59:13.

Corbyn. Ten days to go, no sign of a Lib Dem left off. No sign of

:59:14.:59:16.

high-profile campaigning from your party. If anything, your voters

:59:17.:59:21.

drifting to Labour. I think it is a lot of tactical voting that is

:59:22.:59:25.

happening across the region. Because of that we may lose out in our

:59:26.:59:31.

nontargeted seats. We have plenty of seats around the country whether

:59:32.:59:37.

tactical voting has helped us. Apart from Berwick, it is pretty grim.

:59:38.:59:42.

Derek is getting a good response on the seats. They are squeezing the

:59:43.:59:45.

Labour vote and it seems to be working there. Labour is the only

:59:46.:59:52.

challenge to the Conservatives, is what many people are saying. It has

:59:53.:59:59.

been for many years. Some people will giving get the chance to vote

:00:00.:00:04.

Green. But the most part your party are supportive of Jeremy Corbyn, so

:00:05.:00:08.

why do but the vote in other places to the Greens? Sums Labour policies

:00:09.:00:15.

that the Green party can overlap with. In other areas, we don't feel

:00:16.:00:21.

that Jeremy Corbyn is taking the Labour Party to a place that we

:00:22.:00:29.

don't think right. We would abandon Trident. We would save us and the

:00:30.:00:35.

country ?10 billion. It is important that we are campaigning on those

:00:36.:00:40.

issues, issues like electoral reform, issues about sustainability.

:00:41.:00:44.

The Tories had a manifesto that said there are five big issues facing

:00:45.:00:48.

this country and not one of them was the environment. How could that be?

:00:49.:00:53.

You might be looking to reduce the scale of debate, but it was to be a

:00:54.:00:58.

big one. We are taking every vote seriously. We're right there all day

:00:59.:01:02.

everyday... Are you really think we can win? I think there has been an

:01:03.:01:08.

atmospheric change in the country so I think we can win. Personal debt in

:01:09.:01:14.

this country is ?14,000 per household. Why is that, because

:01:15.:01:19.

people's pay has been frozen and they are on low pay. We propose to

:01:20.:01:25.

change all of that. You have to put some hope back into your campaign,

:01:26.:01:30.

haven't you? A positive future? Absolutely, and I think there is,

:01:31.:01:38.

but that doesn't change the fact that this is about Brexit. I think

:01:39.:01:40.

there is a lot of hope in Brexit. On Tuesday we'll be in Gateshead

:01:41.:01:51.

where an audience of voters from across the North East

:01:52.:01:55.

and Cumbria will be putting THEIR questions

:01:56.:01:57.

to a panel of candidates re-elected. Is the only choice for

:01:58.:01:59.

strong and stable leadership. Now, after the Manchester attack,

:02:00.:02:17.

will the final week of election campaigning different in tone from

:02:18.:02:20.

what came before? My panel are here. Tim Marshall, it will be very front

:02:21.:02:28.

of Centre for the next few days. Is that a good thing for the election

:02:29.:02:33.

if it is going to be framed to who do you feel more safe with? It is

:02:34.:02:37.

inevitable but I think it will only be part of the election. As I said

:02:38.:02:42.

before the opt out, for many voters this is also about economics,

:02:43.:02:48.

unemployment. It is not all about Brexit, nor is it only about

:02:49.:02:53.

security. What it will do, I hope, is get the tone of the debate right.

:02:54.:02:58.

Although I have already seen the tone being lowered. I wasn't

:02:59.:03:02.

impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech last week blaming it on a foreign

:03:03.:03:07.

policy, which is a wafer thin analysis of what is going on.

:03:08.:03:14.

Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I think the argument is utter

:03:15.:03:22.

nonsense. I don't want to attack just one side. The Conservative

:03:23.:03:25.

party, I've forgotten which minister has already said that we would be

:03:26.:03:30.

safer under a Tory Prime Minister, it has got nothing to do with Labour

:03:31.:03:35.

or Tory government, the next Islamic attack. It is to do with jihadist

:03:36.:03:44.

ideology, not party policies. You raise an important issue about tone.

:03:45.:03:49.

It also points to a broader argument, one we were having

:03:50.:03:52.

earlier, has politics been two courses with this issue of

:03:53.:03:59.

extremism? Has the conversation about it tiptoed around some of the

:04:00.:04:05.

sensitive issues? And by the media. You highlight the problem of this

:04:06.:04:08.

being part of the election campaign by saying, has politics been too

:04:09.:04:17.

cautious? Who do you mean by politics? And in an election

:04:18.:04:21.

campaign there is a duty to be a divide, and adamant about values,

:04:22.:04:28.

policies etc. Security is an issue that transcends those political

:04:29.:04:32.

divides. So I think it is deeply unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a

:04:33.:04:39.

tragedy occurred. But if you ask me does it help or enhance an election

:04:40.:04:46.

debate? Emphatically not. A tragic event brings politics, as you call

:04:47.:04:53.

it, together. Security is an issue that is complex and doesn't divide

:04:54.:04:57.

neatly. Elections are political battles, by definition. So I think

:04:58.:05:04.

the coming together of this, a tragedy occurred anyway, but it is

:05:05.:05:11.

an unfortunate context. Do you agree or do you think this is a time to

:05:12.:05:16.

talk about these issues? Is it a time to review the level of

:05:17.:05:21.

argument? This is a political debate. I personally think the

:05:22.:05:24.

politicians should have been out and about on Wednesday. There is no

:05:25.:05:29.

wrong time to get it right. We mustn't let the terrorists affect

:05:30.:05:35.

our way of life. But they have when we disrupt the election campaign. It

:05:36.:05:42.

may be party political. But for a lot of voters, including me, I want

:05:43.:05:47.

to hear from party leaders. What do you plan to do about this? Right

:05:48.:05:53.

now, I've not heard anything that suggests any of these parties have

:05:54.:05:56.

got to grips with the real problem, which is that we are not actually

:05:57.:06:01.

tackling the problem in our midst. Douglas Murray touched on it

:06:02.:06:03.

earlier. We have not even come to grips with the scale of the problem.

:06:04.:06:11.

Does Labour have a grip -- Power Point in terms of terrorist

:06:12.:06:18.

legislation? It is complicated. And not all of it has worked or is used

:06:19.:06:23.

enough by government? It is another example where this doesn't work in

:06:24.:06:26.

an election debate because David Davis has opposed a lot of this

:06:27.:06:32.

terrorism legislation. He is now heading Brexit. There is a civil

:06:33.:06:35.

liberties argument which I personally have doubts about. Again,

:06:36.:06:42.

it brings people together from the major parties. And Corbyn didn't

:06:43.:06:48.

actually say it was the cause of terrorism, British foreign policy,

:06:49.:06:52.

but it helped to facilitate terrorism, which is a different

:06:53.:06:56.

argument. Again, that would be supported by some Tories as well.

:06:57.:07:00.

That is why it is difficult in an election campaign for this issue to

:07:01.:07:04.

dominate. The front page of the Sunday Times talks about a campaign

:07:05.:07:09.

relaunch, which may not, grow as a great surprise following the social

:07:10.:07:13.

care fiasco. Do we know what that will entail? It sounds like Boris

:07:14.:07:20.

Johnson will play a role. The whole point is it was all about Theresa

:07:21.:07:24.

May and it turns out that is not quite good enough. The more we have

:07:25.:07:28.

seen of Theresa May, the less impressive she has looked. Certainly

:07:29.:07:32.

the Andrew Neil interview just repeating the same thing again and

:07:33.:07:37.

again. Voters don't like that. They like people who are honest and

:07:38.:07:41.

actually engage with them. When we see beat interviews in the next few

:07:42.:07:44.

days, I think it will be interesting to see if she changes tack and tries

:07:45.:07:49.

to engage with what people are asking. If it is back to leadership

:07:50.:07:55.

and Brexit, and the economy, will that be more comfortable ground? I

:07:56.:08:03.

think so. I understand framing it in terms of Brexit. But she has got to

:08:04.:08:10.

broaden it out. I think that is why she is broadening it out. I don't

:08:11.:08:14.

think the tragic events will absolutely dominate. That would be a

:08:15.:08:22.

small victory for terrorism. This is a country of 65 million people with

:08:23.:08:26.

an awful lot of issues. We have 65 million votes, well, 65 million

:08:27.:08:33.

people with opinions in two weeks. It is quite a long campaign. There

:08:34.:08:38.

is still time to go. What do you think Labour will be focusing on

:08:39.:08:44.

from now on? I would imagine they will look very closely at where they

:08:45.:08:48.

are well ahead in the opinion polls and focus on that relentlessly.

:08:49.:08:54.

Public services, NHS etc. And try to get it off as soon as possible from

:08:55.:08:59.

security and fees is used which, on one level at least, appear to be a

:09:00.:09:03.

gift to the Conservatives. I assume that is what they are going to do.

:09:04.:09:07.

But this is a very unpredictable campaign where nothing has gone

:09:08.:09:12.

according to plan. Let's look ahead. On Wednesday evening we have got an

:09:13.:09:18.

election debate. It is in Cambridge. Leaders of some of the parties.

:09:19.:09:23.

Amber Rudd will be representing the Conservatives. We don't know yet who

:09:24.:09:28.

will represent Labour. Today we have had Amber Road and Diane Abbott

:09:29.:09:32.

against each other on Andrew Marr. Let's have a look. I think there is

:09:33.:09:37.

something to be said for a Home Secretary who has actually worked in

:09:38.:09:42.

the Home Office. I work in the home office for nearly three years as a

:09:43.:09:46.

graduate trainee. This government has always felt that urgency. That

:09:47.:09:50.

is why we have been putting in additional money. It is significant

:09:51.:09:53.

that the commission for extremism in the manifesto was put in before

:09:54.:09:59.

Manchester. We need to do more. You voted against prescribing those

:10:00.:10:04.

groups. Because there were groups on that list I deemed to be dissidents

:10:05.:10:07.

rather than terrorist organisations. We are making good progress with the

:10:08.:10:12.

companies who put in place encryption. We will continue to

:10:13.:10:18.

build on that. It was 34 years ago. I had a rather splendid Afro at the

:10:19.:10:21.

time. I don't have the same hairstyle. And I don't have the same

:10:22.:10:28.

views. It is 34 years on. The hairstyle has gone. Some of the

:10:29.:10:32.

views have gone. So you no longer, you regret what you said about the

:10:33.:10:39.

IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the views have gone. I would say to

:10:40.:10:44.

Diane Abbott that I have changed my hairstyle are few times in 34 years

:10:45.:10:48.

but I have not changed my view of how we keep the British public safe.

:10:49.:10:54.

Let's get away from hairstyle sides talk about the prospect of the two

:10:55.:10:58.

of them taking part in the election debate. Would you like to see that?

:10:59.:11:03.

On one level I would like to see it and another the level I would like

:11:04.:11:09.

to see an intelligent debate. I'm glad I never had an Afro or

:11:10.:11:14.

supported the IRA. Whenever Diane Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a

:11:15.:11:19.

radio studio, Labour haemorrhage votes. She cannot say things like my

:11:20.:11:24.

regret supporting this or that legislation. She is an absolute

:11:25.:11:31.

disaster. If Labour put her up, they are beyond mad. Who do you think

:11:32.:11:42.

Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole

:11:43.:11:47.

log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will

:11:48.:11:54.

explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or

:11:55.:12:04.

six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part.

:12:05.:12:08.

It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely

:12:09.:12:12.

on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool

:12:13.:12:17.

of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public

:12:18.:12:21.

performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell,

:12:22.:12:24.

who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good

:12:25.:12:33.

performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably.

:12:34.:12:41.

But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very

:12:42.:12:46.

illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be

:12:47.:12:50.

there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is

:12:51.:12:54.

froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the

:12:55.:12:58.

leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking

:12:59.:13:03.

about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the

:13:04.:13:06.

theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair.

:13:07.:13:13.

Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank

:13:14.:13:21.

the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I

:13:22.:13:27.

will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily

:13:28.:13:31.

politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all

:13:32.:13:34.

of us here, bye-bye.

:13:35.:13:41.

Jo Coburn and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

Professor of politics John Curtice, minister for security Ben Wallace, shadow justice minister Richard Burgon, author and commentator Douglas Murray, and director of Inspire (counter-extremism and women's rights organization) Sara Khan are among the guests.

Journalists Steve Richards, Tim Marshall and Julia Hartley-Brewer make up the political panel.


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