12/02/2012 Sunday Politics North West

And in the north west: A place to call home. The

government urges councils to build more permanent pitches for

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1701 seconds

travellers. But how do you get the Welcome to the Sunday Politics in

the north west. In the next 20 minutes: A place to call home. The

government urges councils to build more permanent pitches for

travellers. But how do you get the locals onboard?

First, as ever, let me introduce our guests for this week. For the

blues, Fylde Conservative MP Mark Menzies, and for the reds, Labour's

Julie Hilling, who represents Bolton West. Thank you for joining

David Cameron has admitted that he has not spoken to the Indian

Government about BAE's Typhoon bid since last November - is he, as

Labour claim, not doing enough for Lancashire workers? If you look at

the Four replied to the questions, you will see that officials have

been gauging very closely with government and we have also been

engaging with the German government because Germany is a lead country,

not the UK. The Prime Minister was in India and that is something that

the previous prime ministers have not done. But that was some time

ago. With it being a close-fought Ping, he should be out there

constantly. The Prime Minister has made it clear that he would do

everything he can. I also tabled a question, and this was to the

Department of business innovations and skills, asking them what they

are doing. It became clear that the Secretary of State for business has

not met with the German counterpart so I will be asking for him to use

his for authority to do so. Julie, this was a question by a Labour

minister, what did you think? feels like he has not done enough.

He has not spoken to the Indian Prime Minister since November so it

feels typical of a complacency, I think, that David Cameron it seems

to display at not getting in there and fighting for British business.

Business is so vital to the north- west. I will stop you both their,

er sorry. We will have to move on to our top story.

Liverpool's become the largest city outside London to vote to have a

directly-elected mayor. Councillors voted overwhelmingly to change the

system and an election for Mayor will now take place in May. Last

month Salford also opted to go for a mayor, but there, voters decided

in a referendum. Critics say there should have been a referendum in

Liverpool too. Our political editor Arif Ansari was at the vote.

For centuries, Liverpool Town Hall has been making decisions for the

city. On Monday evening it made a historic choice about itself. But

it was a vote by councillors not voters, and campaigners for a

referendum felt cheated. If you're in Manchester, Bristol or

Birmingham, you will get a say in a referendum and how your city is run.

In Liverpool, we get to do what Joe Anderson says. Certainly the Labour

Leader led the way. And the ceremonial Lord Mayor announced the

vote on the city mayor. 62 for the motion. The motion is carried.

Well, vote taken and by big majority gone for a mayor, no

referendum, but this is a big historic change for the way the

city's run. I think it is a denial of democracy to not let them have a

referendum, but at the end of the day it Labour have the numbers here.

But you didn't vote against Chris - -? We didn't because I am not

prepared to vote against more power for Liverpool.

So for the first time anyone wanting to lead the city, as mayor,

will have to win the support of Liverpool's voters. Why is it wrong

to let the people decide? Somebody who is independent and wants to put

forward their position, it is up to be -- up to me to be passionate

about my City. That choice will be made in May. On the same day voters

in Manchester will be asked in a referendum if they want a mayor,

too? Joining me in the studio to discuss

the implications of all this is Professor Jon Tonge, head of

politics at Liverpool University. Why was then a referendum? Labour

tried to spin the idea that if they didn't store and affected --

elected mayor, this package that has been offered by the government,

which is serious money, about �130 million, would not be given. I

don't think that is quite true what the Coalition have said, that those

councils displaying strong governance arrangements get the

most money. There is also a fear factor because weather has been a

referendum on whether to have an elected mayor, two-thirds of local

authorities have said no. Liverpool could argue that, we have stolen a

march on other cities now. It increases pressure on other cities,

notably Manchester, to go for an elected mayor. It is made that

people in Manchester will decide. It will be very difficult for the

city council in Manchester if the public's a no. Could they be losing

a great part of money? It is possible, but any city that goes

for an elected mayor will get this money. The question has moved on in

Liverpool. I fear that what is happening already it is that party

politics will dominate may rule contests. The assumption was you

would have lots of local characters coming forward. We don't know yet

because nominations don't open in Liverpool until next month, but the

evidence so far shows that we will get is already existing people

standing. The Joe Anderson's of this world will probably stand and

people will say, what is the difference? Mark, what would the

difference be? By is the Coalition so keen on having elected mayor as

if it is going to be the former leader of the council that his men

anyway? What we wanted to do, and what I voted for, is for cities

like Liverpool to have a referendum. It is not for government to decide,

it is for the people of that city to decide. You think there should

have been a referendum? Yes, and it would have been healthy.

Liverpool feel under pressure? no. Has this ever been said that he

will not get the pot of money. What Liverpool are arguing is that they

want to the early starters and get on with it, and I can accept that

argument, but the healthy thing to do is take local people with you.

Make people feel they are part of the process rather than something

happening to them. For Bolton, this is important, isn't it because

Manchester City Council could go for a Mayer, but for Greater

Manchester is it more important that you have a mayor? It is quite

different from other regions. is definitely an argument for a

mayor of Greater Manchester. Currently I am not a great

supporter of Meyers, I prefer power to be spread amongst more people

rather than just one person. It does seem that what we do miss out

on across Greater Manchester now is that democratic accountability. Our

leaders it will go and be part of various organisations that are

running the county, but since... But there is an awful lot of

pressure. If Manchester does not vote for an elected mayor, it could

lose out on the money that Liverpool would get? Potentially.

Bolton does not want to go down that route, similarly with Wigan,

they do not believe it is right. There is a question about the money.

It should follow weather is good councils having a proper democratic

system. What do we think about the names bantered about? Have we got a

Boris? Who will we have? One of the names that has been touted in

Liverpool is Phil Redmond. It would be interesting to see whether he

would be prepared to take on the Labour Party will stop it is

interesting what David Miliband said this week, arguing that people

in Liverpool should be able to choose their candidate. I doubt the

Labour Party would allow that to happen. It would be interesting to

see how the contest is opened up. The candidate has to be announced

by next week, I think, making it particularly hard! I don't think we

will be looking back and think that people will be shrinking violets.

The North West has a large population of travellers and

gypsies, but many feel they're misunderstood by the rest of

society. One of the main problems has been the lack of legal sites

for travellers to settle on, and friction with other communities

when illegal sites sometimes spring up as a result. So now the

government's trying to do something about it. But how do you address

the needs of both travellers and the settled community? In a moment

we'll be speaking to the government minister who's trying to do that,

but first Naomi Cornwell reports on how it's affected one part of

Cheshire. Travellers have always had a

difficult relationship with the rest of society - Dale Farm in

Essex was an extreme example that captured national attention. The

closure of the UK's largest illegal travellers' settlement resulted in

violent clashes. And the government has acknowledged that there's a

need for many more authorised sites to avoid more scenes like this in

the future. The Localism Act is introducing stronger powers for

councils to tackle the problem of unauthorised developments, while

�60 million of funding has been made available for new legal

pitches. And some of that money could be

spent here, because Cheshire East Council has been given �900,000 of

that funding. This bit of council land near Crewe might not look like

much at the moment, but subject to planning permission, the local

authority wants to build 10 pitches for travellers here.

We have a duty to assess the needs for travellers in our areas and

then ensure the provision is made for them as well. You want a site

that is close to amenities, close to schools and shops, and not too

intrusive into the countryside. We think that this site needs those

criteria. It's been welcomed by travellers in Cheshire. We have

people parked unauthorised and travelling about in the area and

now they will have somewhere to go. They will be settled so they can

pay rent and council -- council tax. The children can go to school and

it dispels everything. It eases everything if it is managed

corrective. At this community centre in Winsford they organise

events to bring travellers and non travellers together, hoping to

improve communities' understanding of each other.

We want to dispel all the methods, the lies. You can see what we are,

we are human beings, no different from anywhere else. We live

slightly differently, it is part of our culture, not a lifestyle choice.

It is what we are. It is to show that we are no different.

But the site earmarked for this traveller settlement isn't a

popular choice among some local residents. There is a multitude of

objections, the first one being the size of the actual site. The sight

behind me is too small for its intended use. Secondly it is the

selection procedures used to arrive at the site, and thirdly the lack

of consultation. Their campaign against the

development has been backed by the local Conservative MP. We have

nothing personally angered -- against the travelling community.

There are other sites that we are certain will far better serve the

local communities and the travellers themselves of.

government survey in 2007 found that Cheshire East needed to

provide between 27 and 42 more pitches for travellers by 2011. And

even more by 2016. But since the report, only ten more have been

opened. Inspector Mark Watson believes that lack of authorised

sites has caused problems in the county. As the head of Cheshire

Police's Diversity Unit, he's worked to overcome prejudices in

the area. I think people understand that

accommodation is a fundamental need for everyone. If you do need to

stay for an extended period, the other benefits of society come to

you, excess medical services, education, more integration with

the community if you have a stake in that local community. It is not

a lifestyle choice. My father never buy a cup and said, I want to be a

gypsy today. It was built in to you, we are a nomadic race and we do

travel. The plans for this site will be debated by the council

later this month. But it will take years to create the total number of

pitches needed by the traveller community.

Andrew Stunnell, the Liberal Democrat MP for Hazel Grove is also

the Communities Minister responsible for those �60 million

of extra funding for travellers' sites, Earlier he spoke to Naomi.

Isn't the problem not just the money but finding sites everyone is

happy with? It is important to find sites that people are happier with,

but we have allocated money to people who did it to us, proposals

coming to us for sites. We are pretty confident that this will

start to solve the problem. Over 600 new gypsy and traveller sites

across the whole country. How we make sure that councils spend that

money? They won't get it until they have spent it, so we will not be

wasting the money. We have allocated �47 million, 48 extra

places in the north-west. It is payment by results. That is how it

works. Your also providing more powers to get rid of unauthorised

sites, how we a crackdown on those? The problem is unauthorised

development of all sorts, not travellers. There are some tricks

of the trade that people use. People use them to play the system

and we are shutting those loopholes. We will be giving details about

that in the next few weeks. There is a lot of catching up to do. As

we saw in Cheshire, they are trying but they have a lot more pitches to

open before they reach their targets. We are saying that local

authorities have to work out what the right target for them is. I

think Cheshire East and other local authorities will want to do that as

their first step. Other sorts of catching up exists as well. We need

to tackle the fact that travellers have the worst health and education

outcomes. If that happens and they can get regular jobs, then some of

the conflict between settled communities and gypsies and

travellers can be taken away. That is really coming forward to give

gypsies a fair start on a proper site -- on a proper life so they

can be part of a mainstream society. �60 million being given by the

government, is that enough? It is not just about money, it is about

making sure that the money is targeted it in such a way that the

local community can sign up to these sites. In the past, the site

had been illegal and they create huge problems. I have one in my

constituents that -- constituency and I see how many problems they

cause. Particularly in Cheshire, the problems are that even if that

site becomes illegal -- a legal site, the local community still do

not want them. It is not just a problem about illegal sites. When

travellers' camp, you can understand why communities get

upset. The settled community does not want travellers' site near them

and it is a huge problem to find a site that is suitable for the

travellers and the community has accepted it. We need much more

education about it as well. There will always be places like Dale

Farm. I had a traveller who was moving into a house, the people

around were saying, their friends would just turn up in caravans and

that was not his intention. does the collision feel there needs

to be a change? Labour introduced local authorities having to make

adequate provision. Because you have got the files of the legal

traveller sites. -- the fast. They did not get rid of the sides. We

have got to get local communities to be confident about the

government tackling illegal sites. There needs to be an alternative

for people to illegally Goto. put pressure on local authorities

to do something about it but didn't solve the problem? I think we do

not have enough sides for travellers and it is good that more

money is going into it so we have to do much more about educating

both communities to work and live together in harmony. That is all we

Let's stop there because it's time to take our weekly look at some of

the region's other political stories with Gill Dummigan.

An NHS regulator has appointed extra board members to help run the

troubled Morecambe Bay Hospitals Trust. It's facing criticism on its

appointments system, A&E services and at Furness General on maternity

care. The Labour MP for Birkenhead is

calling for commissioners to be sent in to run Wirral Council.

Frank Field told Westminster that senior officers had cost the

authority around �60 million in missed grants. The Council said it

was pleased that the minister also recognised work going on to make

improvements. Salford Council is to postpone two

controversial plans to save money. Plans to reduce support services

for deaf children will be looked at again, while three threatened day

care centres for the elderly will stay open for another year.

Finally, Stockport's been revealed as the town centre with the highest

proportion of empty shops in the UK. A national survey claims one in

It is sad news about Stockport. I must confess that I do not going

them much. We need to find more ways to make our local shops

attractive, and also enable charities and small businesses to

have a trial. Mark, you worked in retail for a long time. 15 years

before I became an MP. I was working for big retailers. It is a