23/09/2012 Sunday Politics North West

And in the North West: "We were right to quit." The Lib

Dem councillors who lost the faith - I ask Nick Clegg if the party's

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1997 seconds

huge local losses have been worth Welcome to the Sunday Politics in

the North West. Coming up this morning:

"We were right to quit." The Lib Dem councillors who lost the faith

and Nick Clegg's message to those who didn't.

I am proud, proud of the fact that Lib Dems stepped up and said, we

are going to play a role in setting The full interview coming up.

This week, with the Liberal Democrats gathering in Brighton,

we're looking at the party's fortunes in the North West. But

first, let's meet this week's guests. Jo Crotty chairs the party

in the region, and Professor Andrew Russell is head of Politics at the

University of Manchester. The leadership has been pretty busy,

saying sorry this week. Have you got anything to apologise for?

Many things, but not on national television!

And Drew, just set the scene for us for the party in Brighton. --

Andrew. Now is the time for the Lib Dems to

express to the country as a whole and the region what it is they

stand for. That is what we will be talking

about as well. So where are the Lib Dems in the

North West? They'll be defending six seats at the next general

election, in Burnley, Manchester Withington, Cheadle, Hazel Grove,

Southport and Westmorland & Lonsdale. And in three of them, a

swing of just 3% or less could unseat the MP.

But it's at the grassroots where you can see the real impact of

being in government. Back in 2010, there were more than 400 Lib Dem

councillors across the region. In last year's local elections, more

than 100 were lost, and this year the party were left with around 230.

Labour has more than 1,200 and the Conservatives 650. Well, two years

ago, four local councillors in Runcorn quit the party, saying the

leadership had betrayed them by going into coalition. They later

stood as independents, but lost. So, two years on, Andy Gill's been back

to meet them. If they come back and say, we were

fined 1,000 extra people, then great.

-- we will fund. The Halton Lib Dems who quit are

still serving their community - just not as elected councillors.

Here, Bob Bryant and Mike Shepherd at a careers forum.

Peter Blackmore presents on Halton Community Radio. We brought

together three of the former councillors who resigned and the

local party chair, Mike Hodgkinson. He stayed on after the coalition

was formed but retired in May. What I thought then is come to

fruition. Among the quitters, there's no

doubt they did the right thing. Universal credit is going to be a

nightmare for my community. People are going to have to make decisions

were there to feed the kids or pay the rent or council tax.

We can't knock on people's doors and say keep voting for the Lib

Dems. It will stick in the throat. But the party chair defends Nick

Clegg's decision to go into government.

Had we stayed out of government, it would have been difficult. People

forget that the financial markets were in turmoil about Europe then.

Our ability to borrow money from abroad would have been more

difficult. Isn't the problem for the Lib Dems

that you are trying to claim credit -- credit for being part of the

government in a difficult time, but you are paying a heavy electoral

price for that? The voters don't give you any credit for it.

The reality is that whoever had been in government, they would have

to put through some very tough measures.

They think Nick Clegg should have stuck to his guns on tuition fees

before agreeing to the coalition, and that he must shoulder most of

the blame for party's dismal election prospects.

There is quite a few students in this borough, people who want to go

to university. Now they can't afford to because of tuition fees.

He has shot us in the foot. He has committed suicide Ki really.

Where do you see the Lib Dems in the north-west in two years?

Absolutely nowhere. They will be lucky to have one seat.

In 2015, where is the infrastructure for the Lib Dems?

Where is the ground support? The Lib Dems were famous for

building power on the pavement. The worry now is there'll be no Lib

Dems left on the pavement to rebuild trust and support.

I'm pleased to say we're also joined from Brighton now by John

Pugh, the Lib Dem MP for Southport. It is difficult, really, to say

those councillors we heard from were wrong.

I don't know about whether it is right or wrong. When we went into

coalition, there were people who felt strongly that they didn't want

to go into a coalition with the Conservatives. Within the party,

there is a feeling that a more natural partner would have been the

Labour Party. But the arithmetic wasn't there.

But what they argue is that by going into coalition with the

Tories, you are now making incredibly difficult decisions.

You're not being seen as a party of social justice. They felt that the

party was going to disintegrate. That is what we are seeing.

Disintegrate is a strong word. If you are in government and you have

been left with the legacy, the huge deficit by the previous Labour

government, you were going to have to make some difficult decisions.

Now they are not counsellors because they found it even more

difficult to run a campaign. That is not to say that I don't have

empathy with them. There are many people, excellent councillors who

have lost their seats in the north- west over the past two years. I

think they might find that difficult when they move into

politics. Do you think you are giving the

impression that to our liking politics too much?

I think and how it looks. Andrew, what about the Lib Dems'

position in the north-west? Is it worse than other parts of the

country? The context is axiomatic of the

problem the party has. The third party is struggling for space in a

system designed for two. The Lib Dems have come through as the

challenger party to the established party, whether that be the

Conservatives or Labour. Actually facing both ways is always going to

be problematic. The secret for success has been the kind of

localised campaign. Now, suddenly, when they are in government, it is

difficult for the Lib Dems to kind of focus exclusively on the local

campaign. John, in Brighton, what those

councillors were arguing, I suppose, and what I put to Joe, is that you

are no longer seen as the party of social justice. We have seen

tuition fees, local council cuts, the NHS Bill. That is a difficult

position for you. I'm surprised you picked on

councillors in Runcorn. The coalition has found the money for

the Mersey gait Weybridge, as they found the money for the northern

hub. -- Gateway Bridge. The Labour Party rallied over these things for

too long. They are the last councillors who should be

complaining. What they seem to be saying, there

may be people who are happy to get to you -- a local bridge. But they

are not happy about cuts to local services.

There are big England wins. The problem the coalition has about

making sure isn't -- it is not just the South East that gains from the

recovery, that is important. There have been difficult local elections.

It has been very difficult for people. But the essential product

of revitalising the north-west and encouraging manufacturing,

encouraging manufacturing in places like Liverpool and Manchester, that

is a wholly good one. I was having a look at the

conference agenda. Given the state that the party is in, I would have

thought that you would want to spend more time discussing how to

get out of it and how to improve the position you are in.

I think we have learned from the early phase of coalition. What we

now have is a very, very close focus on the economy, jobs, and

things that really do matter. These things matter to people who are not

particularly detained by politics. We are on the right page.

Andrew, what is the way out for the Lib Dems in the region?

The way out is a loaded term. It suggests they are looking for a way

out. I mean recovering. Actually, what John has just said

about saying the story is local as well as national, that is the real

problem for the smaller party. They are always going to be in a

peculiar position in a coalition. If you are happy, you would say it

is a major party's effort. If you are unhappy, you blame the smaller

The man at the centre of all this is the Deputy Prime Minister and

leader of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg. I spoke to him before

conference got underway at the Cabinet Office.

I almost wonder if we should start this into the by apologising to

each other simply because that is the way things seem to be at the

moment. Instead, let the press on and asked about the local election

results in the north-west. How disappointed were you?

I was disappointed. The Lib Dems have lost councillors, good

colleagues, servants of their communities in local elections two

years in a row. Clearly, entry into government has been unpopular with

people in the North West, and of course, we have to take difficult

decisions because there's no money left by the last government. I hope

that people in the north-west will say that nonetheless we have done

some good things, important things that will benefit them. It is the

Lib Dems who are delivering a change in the tax system, such that

next April, instead of paying tax after �6,400, which is how it was

when we came into government, you can and �9,200 tax free as of next

April. Bad-taste 2 million people on low pay out of paying any income

tax altogether. -- that takes 2 million people. That is one example

of the many things... Let's talk about those local

elections, steal. The Lost World out of 12 councillors. -- you lost

12 out of 12 councillors. That is pretty disastrous.

As I said, it has been a setback for the Lib Dems. What goes up,

goes down in politics. When will it start to go up? I am

not a soothsayer, I am a politician and a human being. As the economy

recovers, people will see that we have given them money with economic

changes, we have delivered more changes in the north-west, we have

given the pensioners of the north- west the biggest cash increase in

their state pension ever because of the guarantee from the Lib Dems. We

have given schools extra money through the people premium, to help

schools educate children from difficult backgrounds. We are doing

these things well during the painstaking job of rescuing and

repairing an economy that had been left in tatters by the last

government. And when you went into government,

you knew that tough choices would have to be made. I know that. Did

you realise that it would be at the extent of this much damage to your

local government base? Maybe you have a crystal ball but I

don't. It is hard to know what is going to happen from one year to

the next. I didn't know, candidly, back in 2010, that the eurozone was

going to be grinding from one crisis to the other. Clearly, I

could not anticipate when making to government that the mission, which

is the central mission of the Lib Dems in this government, to repair

our economy, to create hope and jobs for the future, would be more

difficult than we thought at the outset because the damage that was

incurred because of labour's irresponsibility was worse than we

had expected. Has the sacrifice been worth it?

I don't think we will know whether anything has been worth it until we

know what their jobs, optimism, hope and stability have been

restored to the British economy. At the end of the day, what is more

important than the political fortunes of any politician or party

is whether we as a country can pull together to recover from one of the

biggest shocks in the post-war period that happened in 2008? Why

did it happen? Because people like Ed Balls were on a charm offensive

in the city of London. It has taken longer than I had, but I'm proud

that the Lib Dems stepped up and said, we are going to try to set

the country on a better path. Andrew, apart from Nick Clegg being

and used by my reference to those apologies, I thought it was

interesting that when I asked him were the sacrifice is worth it, he

didn't seem quite so sure. Events, dear boy, is what he was

saying. When you go into government, you can't predict what is going to

happen. The real pressure for the Lib Dems is that the wings they

have had, with the greatest respect to things like tax thresholds, are

not as sexy as some was the defeat they have had, like tuition fees. -

- some of the defeats. The government would have liked signs

of recovery to have taken place. 2015 will be easier if the

electorate could see things were getting better. The signs now are

that it is going to be a long road to recovery. That makes it

difficult for all the parties in the coalition, but particularly the

Lib Dems. Do you think the sacrifice is in

the region have been worth it? That is a very difficult question.

If you have not been in government for several generations, and you

have the opportunity to be in government, he almost had to take

it, or why are you in politics? -- you almost have to take it. I would

go back to what Mike Hodgkinson was saying, that really we needed a

stable government at around that time. If we had gone into another

general election, maybe we would not now be in the same extent as

Greece, but they have had two elections. To some extent, I don't

think we had a choice. If we are a serious party, we had to go into

coalition. Like Nick, I'm surprised that it is all the Lib Dems' fault

that people seem to have forgotten Bacup the Labour Party caused the

deficit. His Nick Clegg -- is Nick Clegg a

vote winner in this region? That is a difficult question. Because the

answer is no. To an extent that is true. People

identify him with the break of trust over tuition fees. You can't

put that any other way. John, can you gloss over that or do

you agree that he is not a vote winner?

I think she is right. Going into government is a tough call for any

small party. We have experience that. In the first two years of

coalition, we played our Han not particularly well. Tuition have --

Tricia fees is a good example. I hope the party has learned from

that. We could have played a smarter hand in the first two metal

years of Parliament. Nick is right to apologise for some of the errors.

Some of the polling we are looking at a showing that the public are

responding positively to that. The Daily Mail did a similar poll to

find out the reaction to Nick's apology. They found out it was good

for him and did not publish it. Let's remember what he is

apologising for. He is not apologising for the policy. His

apologising for the pledge, the initial pledge that was broken.

When it came to that vote, you still voted for that pledge. You

start by your guns. On that basis, presumably you think he is actually

wrong to apologise for this? You would not be apologising for the

original pledge, would you? Every politician has to deal with their

unconscious. Nick Clegg feels, like anybody, that sometimes you can't

keep promises. You probably can't keep every promise you have made.

To that extent, I think he is clearing the ground, trying to get

an identity for himself in the north-west. To some extent, I think

he will succeed. But you don't fundamentally agree

with the principle of that apology because you felt that the original

pledge was right? I thought the issue of trust was

paramount. That was a political calculation. I also thought there

were other ways of funding university education, for example,

a graduate tax, which we should look at first.

What is the way back for the party in the region? Is it all about the

national picture, the economy recovering? Or is there anything

else you can do regionally? I think it is the economy, the

economy, the economy. For both parties in the coalition, that

trumps everything. Some of the issues John has highlighted in

terms of what the coalition has done for this region, we need to do

a better job at communicating. Thank you for your time. I hope you

enjoy the conference. Over the coming weeks, we'll be

speaking to the leaders of the other two major parties as we focus

on their conferences. But what else has been happening over the last

week? Here's Chris Rider with our Not a good week for Grant Shapps,

who broke the law by allowing millions to be spent knocking down

terraced houses, some in the north- west. Problem was, it is against

government policy. UKIP is in conference mood but

putting Europe to one side. People like what we have to say on

the ground. People like all we have to say on immigration.

The Marine Conservation Society says continuation of the bathing

waters in Blackpool has reached tipping point.

Stand and deliver - the West Lancashire MP got on her High

Halstow in a parliamentary debate on the west coast main line. She

compared some train companies to a latter-day Dick Turpin.

Police say we have not -- please, Andrew, we heard there that it has

been EU could conference, too. How significant a force are they? -- it

has been EU kip Conference, too. They will have a big push in the

run-up to the European elections. They have done well traditionally.

Then it is about exerting pressure, especially on the right wing of the

Conservative Party. The reshuffle was a sign that the Conservatives

are worried about the pressure from UKIP. That they also represent a

pressure for third party politics. It is traditionally thought that

they taken votes away from the Conservative Party. But they can

actually take Lib Dem votes as well because there are a lot of protest

voters who switched from you to them.

It is true. In the past, we have tended to suck away some of that

protest vote against the Tories. But now we are a party in

government. It is time to vote by protesting against us, I guess. In

that sense, UKIP can take a vote away if you are trying to protest

an incumbent. They don't have any MPs. Although some polls have shown

they may get some, the only one that counts is in a couple of years.

You are not too worried about their impact?

I will be surprised if they may a breakthrough in 2.5 years.

Feel free to keep in touch during Next week, we're in Manchester for

the Labour conference, and our guests will include the former