04/11/2012 Sunday Politics North West

High Speed Rail and west coast Mainline. Building a model railway

or hitting the buffers? What should be done to get our trains back on

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2054 seconds

I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in the North West - building a model

railway, or hitting the buffers? What should be done to get our

trains back on track? What we need to do is to move towards the German

or the French model where you have got franchising which would not

exist in this form. Some people refuse to travel in standard class

and That journey to come, but first, our guests this week. Alison

McGovern is the Labour MP for Wirral South and David Mowat, the

Conservative for Warrington South. Alison, I know you've got a bit of

a passion for trains in the family? That is right. Three members of my

family and three generations in the rail industry. I am proving to be a

bit of a trainer geek. Which is what we need this week. And David,

crucial for the local economy? hour and 45 minutes to Euston and

it could get better and I hope it does. Some people have been

listening to Lord Heseltine will stop --. If you listened to Lord

Heseltine this week, there is something else crucial to the local

economy. Well, 89 things actually. But overall, sending more power and

money back here from Westminster. The former Conservative Deputy

Prime Minister has plenty of history here in the North West,

most famously working in Liverpool after the Toxteth riots. But will

anybody listen to him this time Transforming the fortunes of the

city in the wake of the Toxteth rioting. This inspired his clan 30

years later. Because of my experience in Manchester and

Liverpool, I know the people very well and worked with them over many

decades. That has encouraged me to say to the Government, the talent

and the energy and ideas are all there. Draw them into the process.

He wants to give the economic regeneration bodies known as local

enterprise partnerships, millions of extra pounds to help them

compete for contracts like the one awarded in Birkenhead. It was a

really positive report. He recognised the importance of what

we can achieve economic life. He is bold, ambitious and determined and

we are doing what we can in Liverpool. A we have got fantastic

other ships. For the first time ever -- partnerships. For the first

time ever we are stimulated the development. What is shipyard is

busy again, it is a lot of money, 45 billion, to prise away from

government. It is almost like the Plan B. For the Government to adopt

what he said, this would be a U- turn on the present strategy. I am

not sure they would make that. underlines the lack of strategy,

said the Labour Party. And what And here is the actual report.

We're also joined by Professor Alan Harding, a specialist in economic

regeneration at Liverpool University. You did one better than

reading the report, didn't you? Indeed, yes. What do you draw out

of it? Be it is a tree's bark Michael Heseltine issue. Lots of

issues -- trade mark. It is all about making departments work

together. We have got a lot in there about engaging the private

sector. And a lot in there about the Government doing more to get

the economy going. Yes and there is a sum of �49 billion which has been

identified. That is a big challenge for Whitehall. He is not making any

bones about how people respond. you were to summarise his strategy

about getting the economy moving, what is he saying? He has said

government is important to economic development which is a refreshing

change from the last few years. He said government needs to provide

the framework and a lot of the core investment. We need decentralised

models of local economic development, which must be properly

resourced, which people would support. He is saying the private

sector must be an important part of strategy. David Mowat, it sounds

like from what Professor Alan Harding is saying that it is quite

a difference. Instead of leaving it to the private sector, you need

more support. I think the principle is that 60 billion which is

currently spent in Whitehall should be reallocated to the regions and

spent there. I support that. It is building on what the Government is

doing, like the City deal's programme. A lot of power is moving

from Whitehall to Manchester and Liverpool. We have got a problem in

this country in terms of centralisation and power and

activity in Whitehall. English regions in particular have lost out.

If this report is part of getting that changed it is good. Alison

McGovern? He has paid an argument in favour of regional development

agencies which of course the Government have taken apart. Let me

just make this point because it is very important. If we look at

relatively poor growth which we had had it is because a lot of work has

been stalled because of that. If Lord Heseltine is saying that we

need city regions with real power and resources, that is the sort of

thing I would be interested in. But as he said himself, his report will

go down like a ton of bricks in parts of Whitehall. MPs like David

and I need to champion this. think we probably agree on this. I

would like to come back to the regional development agencies.

Isn't it a bit of an old argument? We did abolish them, that is true.

Peter Mandelson reduced their budget in his last year. It that

was the way to get we chopped red, white was so much spent on them in

London and the south-east. -- if that was the way to get red, white

was the budget increased in the south and south-east? We have

looked at local enterprise partnerships. Does that sound

feasible? I think it is but there are questions about whether or not

be MEPs and combined authority models will be appropriate for

handling public money. But the fact his it is generally a week and non-

statutory body. It is difficult for them to fulfil that role but we

will see. Yet another reason why we have not seen the growth George

Osborne said that we would get. Yes, the argument is one we have had.

But what is important in my constituency is that the economy in

the North West is growing and it has not been doing as well as it

should so far. It this can change policy then that is a good thing.

It does seem like he was saying that the Government has done a

great job on the economy but I can think of 89 things to make it

better. It is not a new thing. Lord Heseltine has gone out of his way

in the report to say that he wanted to add to what is happening. A lot

of it is quite sensible. Like looking at boundaries. Do you think

the Government will follow this report through? I hope it is used

as one of the ways to get power to the regions and we need that in the

North West. I suspect everybody This week, more developments over

the failure to decide who runs trains on the West Coast Mainline.

E-mails are being checked to see if the civil service was deliberately

trying to stop Richard Branson's Virgin Rail continuing. And there

was a Commons statement with the findings of the official inquiry so

far, which blamed "an accumulation of significant errors" within the

Transport Department. Labour was However the Secretary of State

spends it, it is a fiasco with not one but four Cabinet Minister's

fingerprints all over it. This is an important time for the region's

railways - with an announcement expected soon on the route for the

proposed High Speed Trains, HS2. Naomi Cornwell's been checking if

It's our main route from the North West to London and Glasgow, but its

future is uncertain. In August, First Group won the franchise to

run the West coast Mainline - only for it to be temporarily handed

back to Virgin after criticism of the bidding process. That's left

Blackpool in limbo. The resort had been promised a new direct service

from London, but there's no guarantee that will now happen.

are disappointed that it is not on the table. But we will be lobbying

any interested party to say that a rounded it must include direct

entrants to Blackpool. -- entrance. And with a local economy heavily

reliant on tourists, hotels like this say it would make a big

difference. We must look at the benefits that link would bring.

Some people cannot -- currently cannot get to Blackpool. If the

link does happen then yes, it would be a benefit. At the end of next

year, the contest to run the line will open again. But some believe

the way such contracts are awarded will always lead to problems.

we need to do is move towards the German or the French model way you

have got franchising in this form which would not exist. You would

have the German national railway operator or equivalent in France.

They do these services and account for themselves in the normal ways

in which she would have to call that service. -- for that service.

The Transport Secretary insists taxpayers will get value for money.

A lot of money has been invested because it is a very important line.

We have got more trains running and we have got to make sure that this

investment is made good. Blackpool could now be waiting until 2014

before it finds out whether it will get its connection to the capital.

Whereas Warrington is hoping for a speedier service to and from London.

The proposed high speed route north of Birmingham is due to be revealed

before the end of this year. And local businesses say they are

relying on HS2 stopping here. my perspective, might think it will

be a massive benefit. A lot of people in the area are very keen to

not talk about the recession and it is investment like this in

infrastructure which is driving jobs and opportunities. This firm

in Warrington offers services like HR and accounting to other

businesses around the country. of my clients are based in London

and that is why the station is a five-minute walk away. It is really

vital to have that link to London. But we want headquarters here

because back of his support staff are based up in Warrington. It is

vital that if it was not here, we would have to look at relocating

head office. The fear is that if towns like this are bypassed by HS2,

their economies could lose out to those of major cities. New routes

and faster trains are all very attractive, but this is the daily

reality for many rail travellers in the North West. Crammed into

carriages like sardines. Many have resorted to filming their commute

as evidence of the problem of overcrowding. If you travel

anywhere around Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, you will get

double-deck trains for example. We did not want that. Have we got a

reason why we cannot have them? It is not practical or feasible? I do

not believe that. We have to deal with overcrowding and we will not

deal with that like this. We need to match the motorway investments

with investments here. With more of us than ever before choosing to

travel by train, everyone agrees changes are needed to keep the

We are also joined from London by the rail analyst, Christian Wolmar.

We know that the Government badly handled the franchising of the west

coast mainline. But the Government position is that it will not affect

passengers and commuters. Do you agree? Well, I do not. As we have

seen in Blackpool, that was a good example. Franchises usually come

with a bag of tricks. Extra train services and rolling stock. Maybe

some investment on tracks. That has been delayed by what must be called

a total franchise the Askett. that fiasco if we -- a total

franchise disaster. And they are then going to have an interim

franchise bidding process and then a bidding for the full franchise.

Is that going to happen? You could not make it up. It is right out of

a script. We have got a temporary and an interim and a permanent

franchise. It is just nonsense. They have got into this mess

because they did not want to hand over temporary running to directly

operated railways, which already operates on the east coast. It is a

nationalised operator. They did not want that for political reasons.

They have given it to Virgin but not for too long because it would

breach the regulations. It will cost more money and it is daft they

did not allow its key department in their straight away to run it on a

temporary basis. Ali when barrister, David? It was -- Ali were

embarrassed? In Barrack -- embarrassing, David? It was tough

to give it to be searching for a couple of years because of

regulations. But we have got to get the new franchise over quickly.

terms of problems, should they have been resignations? I have said in

Parliament that I am not clear what the permanent secretary of a

department is for if he is not for taking accountability for something

like best. It seems to be an error in the engine room and that would

be my opinion. He should have resigned? Yes. Where does this

leave trains? De support nationalisation? The big concern

here is the Department for transport. If you look at what has

happened here, we seem to have a department which has lost control

of the process. That is extremely worrying. Christian made a good

point about the directly operated rail on the east coast and what the

role of that could have been here. It is bizarre that not only have we

have expensive problems in this process, but now we are having

another franchising process and another and you have got to ask if

that is best for the public. What about nationalisation? We have got

to look at the problems now and resolve them. We all agree with

that. There is not an easy answer. Part of the reason for that is

because if you look at how privatisation was done and PCs

being taken apart, we have not got one answer. -- pieces being taken

apart. We have got to use the lessons learned on the east coast

and try and apply some of them to this situation and try and get a

scenario where passengers can rely on services in future. We can talk

about high-speed trains next. This is what the Transport Secretary had

to say this week about HS2. Government are determined to bring

HS2 and serve Manchester and Leeds. Manchester will benefit from the

start. You will get faster journeys up to Manchester and not just to

Birmingham. Christian, will high- speed trains be needed and will

they be value-for-money? I am sceptical about this. �32 billion

was the original estimate to bring it to Manchester and Leeds. But big

projects tend to overrun with cost and time. I think a lot could be

done to improve existing services. We have got a downside. I heard

earlier that people in Warrington are hoping that the high-speed line

will come to them but I do not think that is likely to be the case.

We will probably have won station in the North West, and at most, two

which is unlikely. -- one station. We are not going to have three per

hour on the west coast Mainline if we have got a HS2. Intermediate

stops like Crewe and Stockport might suffer and Liverpool might

not have as good a service. It will not be seen to be competing as well

against Manchester. We have got wider issues than saying that we

are going to solve all our problems. What about if he is right and we

have not got a HS2 for Liverpool? We have not got to that stage yet.

We do not know what that route will be. The most important principle is

about planning and infrastructure long term. West coast Mainline is

pretty much full as it is. Are we going to plan infrastructure for

the future? Will we say in the long term that we need to invest in High

Speed Rail which is what we should do? Then decide about what stations

and service patterns we want in future. David, what if it does not

come into Warrington? Christian said 32 billion which is a lot. We

spend 20 billion on Crossrail in London which had a worse business

plan from the outset than HS2 it. If we have got the money for that

we have got the money for HS2 as Time for the rest of the week's

news now with Ryan Mills in 60 seconds. 1,200 hundred jobs could

be secured in Barrow after the announcement of the next generation

of nuclear submarines. But a firm decision isn't expected until the

next Parliament. Liverpool city council has approved plans for a

community sports centre dedicated to the memory of Rhys Jones. Rhys's

memorial fund is providing a quarter of a million pounds for the

project. That is all he ever wanted to do is, playing football. Bottom

of the class. Local universities say they have lost millions of

pounds and hundreds of students because of the introduction of

tuition fees. 80 jobs are under threat in Bolton because of

unfilled places. Liverpool MP Steve Rotheram cited Hillsborough as he

accused the Prime Minister of briefing against the findings of

the Leveson inquiry. Whose side are you on? Public or press? We know

what it should look like but we do not have it now and we need it in

future. And going quackers for Mitt. The Republican presidential

candidate has an unlikely fan in the Deepdale Duck. Preston's mascot

is married to Mr Romney's third And talking about that, by this

time next week, we will know who is the next US president. Who will you

be voting for or do I need to ask? I will be supporting President

Obama. Some people say he has been disappointing to. It has been a

difficult time Gallipoli and I think he has made great progress in

-- difficult time politically but he has made great progress and he

represents progressive politics. David? I think President Obama has

been disappointing in office but I would support him, just. Mostly on

foreign policy, there are a couple of things Mitt Romney has set in

the Middle East and on Palestine and Iran in particular which

bothered me a bit and I will support President Obama but perhaps

not as happily as Alison. Do you find these elections as exciting as

British politics? There is nothing as exciting as British politics!